The Mail Bag
Full backs a cause of defensive uncertainty?
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Since I couldn't respond to some comments on another thread yesterday, I thought 'd open up the debate about our two current fullbacks. I don't have a major problem with Baines's ability but I do with his size.
From where I sit in the Park End with the Family Enclosure to my immediate left, it was obvious that in the second half Newcastle were targeting the chipped ball over Baines for the winger / full back to run onto. Baines had a very reasonable game but he spent a lot of time in the second half, defending running towards his own goal line. Lescott, being bigger, usually(!) cuts out the lofted ball, as does Valente.
And if I were an opposition manager, I would put a big man on Hibbert's wing to target a high ball to the other post. Again, Hibbert is not brilliant in the air, but, more significantly, he is prone to ball watching, coming inside and forgetting where his man is. I don't need to really discuss his ball control do I?
Aren't these aspects of our defensive mess that we can do something about?
That's why I stated in the other thread that I thought the two full backs are our weakest defensive positions at the moment. Teams are simply getting too many crosses in.
Ray Robinson, Posted 06/10/2008 at 19:41:58
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With Arteta and Pienaar in front of you and unwilling or unable to put in the tracking back they did last year when we were playing well what chance has a full back got.
We CANNOT play a 4-4-2 with Pienaar, Arteta and Osman in the side. None of them has a tackle between them.
We need to either play 4-5-1 with Castillo in or get beefier MF players who have strength in the tackle and can hold a ball under pressure.
We CANNOT play a 4-4-2 with Pienaar, Arteta and Osman in the side. None of them has a tackle between them.
We need to either play 4-5-1 with Castillo in or get beefier MF players who have strength in the tackle and can hold a ball under pressure.
Alan you missed out the 2 goals in the derby that came from Hibbert's side as well.
If we had a decent manager, he would address the issues so correctly raised here. The problem is that Moyes has his favourites, irrespective of whether they are actually any good. Baines is lucky to get a game anyway ? Moyes bought him to sit in the stand ? another good £5M spectator in the squad!
Ray
Totally agree with your comments, I have taken a bit of stick for saying the same. Both full backs are poor defensively and can?t understand why Moyes keeps playing them.
Back four should be Lescott, Yobo, Jagielka and Neville... it's so obvious it's untrue.
Totally agree with your comments, I have taken a bit of stick for saying the same. Both full backs are poor defensively and can?t understand why Moyes keeps playing them.
Back four should be Lescott, Yobo, Jagielka and Neville... it's so obvious it's untrue.
Alan, the 2nd Newcastle goal was more to do with the none existent left side of our team (as it was down that side) and Pienaar not playing to the whistle and assuming Steven Taylor was offside! Baines had an excellent game apart from that, won the pen, set up the 2nd and cleared 2 off the line!
To the origanal post Ray, yes, Lescott may be better defensively than Baines, but he offers nothing going forward down the flanks (which everyone moans about whenever Lescott plays there) and the fact that Lescotts defensive performances have hardly been immaculate so far at either left or centre back! Baines is by far our best left back (2nd being Valente) Lescott is just a square peg in a round hole in that position.
The lofted ball to the back stick has been a ploy used by opposition managers against Tony Hibbert for at least a couple of seasons. Alex Ferguson always seems to instruct such a tactic and it seems that others are exploiting the short stature of Hibbert. Other than tackling does Hibbo offer Everton any other options? A one-dimensional approach at this level unfortunately cannot be tolerated.
Fullbacks have moved on since the days of Parker and Wilson, though Hibbo is more of the Darracott type.
Their job was to stop the winger using speed and or dribbing, getting to the bye line and crossing the ball. The main job specs were, tackle hard, kick hard, both ball and player and being ’ small ’ was and advantage as you had, it was supposed, a low centre of gravity and could turn quicker,
But now there are very few old fashioned wingers and the crosses come from deeper, so the cross stopper is no longer required to be so FULLY back and could now be termed a defensive wing halfback, which evolved into a Ta-dah! WINGBACK.... sorry Hibbo, on the bench except for the odd Petrov.
Baines, The important spaces are the ones a) behind you, if you are 5’ 6 or 6’6 and its going over you at 12’ you’re done like a dinner whatever...b) infront you are only as good as the wide midfielder infront of you... I you are a WINGBACK you are the man infront and the Left side CB (Lescott ) covers your arse....c) inside, you are the WINGBACK, THE UP AND DOWN MAN it’s some other buggers job!!
If you haven’t guessed by now the future is wingback, cuts out the deeper cross gives you width, gives you 5 when defending and allows you to leave 3 when attacking...Jacobensen and Baines.
And to think I laughed like a drain in the 70’s when the then Arsenal boss Don Howe, an early pre Moyes, said he wanted more width and bought a fullback Viv Anderson.
So don’t Blame Baines and Hibbert, Blame Moyes for one dimensional defending theory, we’ve moved on since Terry Darracott.
Their job was to stop the winger using speed and or dribbing, getting to the bye line and crossing the ball. The main job specs were, tackle hard, kick hard, both ball and player and being ’ small ’ was and advantage as you had, it was supposed, a low centre of gravity and could turn quicker,
But now there are very few old fashioned wingers and the crosses come from deeper, so the cross stopper is no longer required to be so FULLY back and could now be termed a defensive wing halfback, which evolved into a Ta-dah! WINGBACK.... sorry Hibbo, on the bench except for the odd Petrov.
Baines, The important spaces are the ones a) behind you, if you are 5’ 6 or 6’6 and its going over you at 12’ you’re done like a dinner whatever...b) infront you are only as good as the wide midfielder infront of you... I you are a WINGBACK you are the man infront and the Left side CB (Lescott ) covers your arse....c) inside, you are the WINGBACK, THE UP AND DOWN MAN it’s some other buggers job!!
If you haven’t guessed by now the future is wingback, cuts out the deeper cross gives you width, gives you 5 when defending and allows you to leave 3 when attacking...Jacobensen and Baines.
And to think I laughed like a drain in the 70’s when the then Arsenal boss Don Howe, an early pre Moyes, said he wanted more width and bought a fullback Viv Anderson.
So don’t Blame Baines and Hibbert, Blame Moyes for one dimensional defending theory, we’ve moved on since Terry Darracott.
Baines is so poor defensively, that we would of lost the newcastle game 4-2 if it wasn’t for his "incapabilities".
I think Moyes picks Hibbert because he basically sees Neville as a midfielder.Most of us can’t see it,but I guess Pip must have something to offer in the engine room of the side.Moyes doesn’t rate Baines although he’s the same size now as when we signed him but Lescott gives him grief if he has to play left-back.All in all,our defence is a fucking mess.
I think Moyes picks Hibbert because he basically sees Neville as a midfielder.Most of us can’t see it,but I guess Pip must have something to offer in the engine room of the side.Moyes doesn’t rate Baines although he’s the same size now as when we signed him but Lescott gives him grief if he has to play left-back.All in all,our defence is a fucking mess.
I don’t think height should have too bearing on a full back’s performance, providing the right steps are taken to rectify it.
Patrice Evra and Ashley Cole are the same stature as Baines, but they don’t seem to suffer from it too much.
The key is stopping the balls in the first place, something we’re not doing too well. United and Chelsea do this a lot better than us, also they have very commanding centre halves who can take over a situation if necessary.
I agree that Baines isn’t the best defender in the world, but his goal line clearances on Saturday show that he is determined at least, and it was probably the best left-back performance we’ve seen this season.
Patrice Evra and Ashley Cole are the same stature as Baines, but they don’t seem to suffer from it too much.
The key is stopping the balls in the first place, something we’re not doing too well. United and Chelsea do this a lot better than us, also they have very commanding centre halves who can take over a situation if necessary.
I agree that Baines isn’t the best defender in the world, but his goal line clearances on Saturday show that he is determined at least, and it was probably the best left-back performance we’ve seen this season.
Leighton Baines is quality, the lad is good enough for England IMO, he can defend & get involved with play what more do you want out of a fullback. Its criminal the way his confidence was demoralised last season & the beginning of this. By some of the standards on here we wouldnt play A.Cole, P.Evra, G.Clichy, Cafu etc as they are all not 6 footers!! fucking nonsense.
If you wanna see where are problems are coming from look at PHIL JAGIELKA who cannot pass to his own team mate and gives more possesion away than TONY HIBBERT who has comeback poorer than he left & if gosling cant get in now he never will!! Then there is LEON OSMAN & PHIL NEVILLE who also lose more possesion than most, Leons case he is tidy on the ball but offers nothing when the other team have the ball its like defending with 10 men whereas Pip’s effort is second to none but his actual football ability is piss poor.
If you wanna see where are problems are coming from look at PHIL JAGIELKA who cannot pass to his own team mate and gives more possesion away than TONY HIBBERT who has comeback poorer than he left & if gosling cant get in now he never will!! Then there is LEON OSMAN & PHIL NEVILLE who also lose more possesion than most, Leons case he is tidy on the ball but offers nothing when the other team have the ball its like defending with 10 men whereas Pip’s effort is second to none but his actual football ability is piss poor.
I?ve actually had it in for Baines over the past few games, although based on his input into the Newcastle game, I don?t think any of us fans are justified in complaints about him. I thought he looked shaky at the back and not all that going forward, however, he also looked like a player who needs a good run in team to build his confidence. Taking into account his goal line clearances and his input into both of our goals, he more than justified his starting place.
The more time he has on the pitch, the more of his good play we will see, so at the moment I am of the frame of mind to say give the lad a bloody chance and lets comment on him when he has had a decent run in the side and when the rest of his team mates including him start playing with a bit of confidence. I actually believe we will be raving about him by the end of the season (probably just set myself up there!)
Hibbert is just awful at the moment and I am certainly no Hibbert fan but when he is in better form, he is much better than what we are seeing at the moment. Yes, I would rather we signed another right back but based on Neville?s recent performances there, I actually couldn?t wait to get Hibbert back.
Oh, and I don?t buy the comment that either Baines or Hibbert are too small.
John, I would love to see more of Gosling. Of all of the players coming through, I really think he has something. Is right back he best position though?
Jay Harris, I totally agree with you about Arteta and Pienaar not doing their defensive duty and would include Osman in that.
It seems that many are blinded by the fancy footwork of those mentioned and fail to notice that defensively they are absolutely woeful.
On an adjacent thread I see Cahill gets a bit of stick because ’ he only scores a few goals’ and is lacking defensively.
When it comes to blocking an attackers run or defending against high crosses I would much rather have Tiny than any of the aformentioned trio.
It seems that many are blinded by the fancy footwork of those mentioned and fail to notice that defensively they are absolutely woeful.
On an adjacent thread I see Cahill gets a bit of stick because ’ he only scores a few goals’ and is lacking defensively.
When it comes to blocking an attackers run or defending against high crosses I would much rather have Tiny than any of the aformentioned trio.
Oh we are a fickle bunch of supporters.
We want defenders to attack and defend at the same time.
We want midfielders to attack, defend, create goals, and score all at the same time.
We want forwards to attack, defend, and create all at the same time.
All these duties are to be carried out by NEVER giving the ball away with a missed pass, NEVER dribbling into a bad position on the pitch, NEVER missing a chance to score. At the same time the MUST ALWAYS play with style, confidence, skill, and MUST appreciate that they are doing ALL this for us the fans!!!
Now back to the real world, decent cover for fullbacks has been a problem for a very long time , just ask Ruud Van Nistelroy which defenders he preferred to dominate at the back post?
Ask any fan "How many times have you feared for the team when Joey tries to play it out from the back?"
Who knows Lescott’s best position in the team?
Can Stubbsy instil some organisation and confidence in the defence?
Lets hope the improvements needed start before Wayne returns to rub our noses in it again??
We want defenders to attack and defend at the same time.
We want midfielders to attack, defend, create goals, and score all at the same time.
We want forwards to attack, defend, and create all at the same time.
All these duties are to be carried out by NEVER giving the ball away with a missed pass, NEVER dribbling into a bad position on the pitch, NEVER missing a chance to score. At the same time the MUST ALWAYS play with style, confidence, skill, and MUST appreciate that they are doing ALL this for us the fans!!!
Now back to the real world, decent cover for fullbacks has been a problem for a very long time , just ask Ruud Van Nistelroy which defenders he preferred to dominate at the back post?
Ask any fan "How many times have you feared for the team when Joey tries to play it out from the back?"
Who knows Lescott’s best position in the team?
Can Stubbsy instil some organisation and confidence in the defence?
Lets hope the improvements needed start before Wayne returns to rub our noses in it again??
Anyone notice on Sunday how many times Baines was in space and other players refused to pass to him even when they could easily have? Something is well amiss with the defence, am sure Baines will make it as an EPL defender just hope it’s somewhere else; he can’t defend for shit. Taylor tore him a new one, a now all too trademark backpost free header - that’s two identical by Standard Liege and now one by the skunks scored by their right back for christ’s sake and their second crossed in by Taylor again with Baines nowhere to be seen.
Would any one fancy a back four of Joseph (Yobo), Jags, Lescott & Baines? I quite like Hibbo but accept that he has been poor recently - possibly something to do with coming back from injury too soon? Thought Baines was very good on Sunday as someone else said could well have been 2-4 without him so matter how good he is in air, going forward general defending, etc at least he knows how to get in the way of a ball about to cross the line. Don’t know how anyone can slag off Jags - Jamie Carragher, John Terry, Tony Adams etc have made England careers out of his sort of game with very little attacking/passing skill involved - its the way we breed them in England - read some of Martin Samuels atricles in the Times very interesting as to why we (England) have certain types of players.
@ Jeff Magee..... Yobo at right back? I don’t think so. Any time I’ve seen him there he hasn’t looked comfortable. The ball was hoofed every time if I’m not mistaken. Yobo is a centre-half and that’s it...
For his second or third start of the season after being injured for most of last season, I think Baines has a good game.
He set up the 2 goals and had 2 goal-line last ditch blocks to spare us our blushes...
His height was being exploited by Newcastle as the ball was getting put over his head into that corner on numerous occasions. His attacking abilities on the other hand are a lot more constructive than Lescott can offer there...
Give him a chance to settle in and he’ll be fine.. Seriously, if we start panicking now, we will be in a lot worse off situation than we find ourselves in now.
For his second or third start of the season after being injured for most of last season, I think Baines has a good game.
He set up the 2 goals and had 2 goal-line last ditch blocks to spare us our blushes...
His height was being exploited by Newcastle as the ball was getting put over his head into that corner on numerous occasions. His attacking abilities on the other hand are a lot more constructive than Lescott can offer there...
Give him a chance to settle in and he’ll be fine.. Seriously, if we start panicking now, we will be in a lot worse off situation than we find ourselves in now.
Roberto Carlos, Phillip Lahm, Ashley Cole, Patrice Evra to name but 4 top class short full backs - size means nothing to play fullback.
What about trying five across the back? With Gosling and Baines as the ’wing backs’?
Howard
Gosling Yobo Jagielka Lescott Baines
Arteta Felaini Pienaar
Yak Saha
This formation would give us the width we need but could also cover the defensive frailties. I appreciate that there is no obvious ’holding’ midfield role here but with five at the back would it really be necessary? I don’t think Gosling is an out-and-out right back but maybe a wing-back?
If Moyes preferred to play 442 why not put Valente at left back and play Baines at LM?
Just a few thoughts...
Howard
Gosling Yobo Jagielka Lescott Baines
Arteta Felaini Pienaar
Yak Saha
This formation would give us the width we need but could also cover the defensive frailties. I appreciate that there is no obvious ’holding’ midfield role here but with five at the back would it really be necessary? I don’t think Gosling is an out-and-out right back but maybe a wing-back?
If Moyes preferred to play 442 why not put Valente at left back and play Baines at LM?
Just a few thoughts...
There’s no doubt in my mind that the virtually ever-present Carsely was the reason why we didn’t concede goals like we are.
The defenders have all been superb for us before and I’m pretty sure Baines and Hibbo were both even being talked about for England in previous years because they are bloody good at what they do when on form.
The whole team is currently lacking in confidence and conviction - none more so than the defence.
They are suffering the extra pressure without Cars to put in the tackles across the 18yard line and 30yds in front of that, that blocked and closed down many opposition opportunities to cross.
The defenders have all been superb for us before and I’m pretty sure Baines and Hibbo were both even being talked about for England in previous years because they are bloody good at what they do when on form.
The whole team is currently lacking in confidence and conviction - none more so than the defence.
They are suffering the extra pressure without Cars to put in the tackles across the 18yard line and 30yds in front of that, that blocked and closed down many opposition opportunities to cross.
What happened to our superstar strikers needlessly giving the ball away for both goals????
Throw Rodwell at right back, lets av a look at him, surely he can?t be as bad the other two, plus for those of you who have the height issue, he?s bout 6-ft?ish. According to the Echo.... I know, the Echo... he was decent at right-mid against Blackburn in the CC, the only bright thing to come out the game according to them. I don?t know whether anyone can back me up on that like, I didn?t go, cos I?m not wastin me money at the min, until they start winning some home games!! I know, I could be waiting a while...
The size of the fullback doesn’t matter does it not James Marshall? I accept the players that you mention seem to get away with it - probably because they play in better teams where the organisation / closing down is better. But for the vast majority of teams who aren’t as adept, the good big ’un is aways better than the good little ’un.
If I were an opposition manager, I would be targeting Baines in particular every game at the back post. I seem to recall Van Nistelroy doing the same thing with Hibbert some seasons ago.
If you’d seen the way, Hull City attacked Baines’s wing in the first half a couple of weeks ago, you’d perhaps understand what I mean.
If I were an opposition manager, I would be targeting Baines in particular every game at the back post. I seem to recall Van Nistelroy doing the same thing with Hibbert some seasons ago.
If you’d seen the way, Hull City attacked Baines’s wing in the first half a couple of weeks ago, you’d perhaps understand what I mean.
Its truly amazing a defender who earns praise from all and sundry and is awarded MOM is described as poor because he’s not six foot tall. We’ll we witnessed how effective a six foot plus player can be against a winger with pace as demonstrated in the Leige game at Goodison. My recollection was Lescott was turned inside out and then some by Dalmat and was by and large the reason we lost. Contrast that with the return game in Leige. Baines did a terrific job on Dalmat and it was acknowledged by the pundits that Dalmat did not have anything like the same success. Reason being Baines has terrific pace one of the few players who actually has at the club. As for Saturdays game Baines and Piennar ran the show first half. Second half Newcastle raised their game and for some reason Piennar switched to the other flank god only knows why. After that he was visibly tiring and afforded little protection as evidenced by his giving up on the ball which led to the goal. Baines had pushed up in support of the midfield which was flagging he should really have been covered by his defence but wasn’t. I’m afraid this height thing doesn’t cut it with me some of the best fullbacks I’ve seen have been small a point rightly made by others. For me Baines is one of the few pluses in the team currently and I’m at a loss to understand the criticism. Our problem is that our defence is lacking in confidence and the fact that Moyes chose to drop Yobo would suggest it’s not just a problem with fullbacks more of an issue of confidence or lack of.
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1 Posted 06/10/2008 at 22:13:25
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1st goal v Liege away: the cross is knocked away as Tony (they're behind you) Hibbert fails to notice the left sided attacker attacking his empty position.
1st goal v Newcastle (ditto re Taylor)
2nd goal v Newcastle ("Ooo.... I will watch the ball so I can slide tackle the loose attacker")
For god sake, if we are going to pick him get him coached. It's not as if his mind is on developing his passing...