Um ?carved us to pieces at Goodison??? We were the better side! I don?t care what anyone says - that night, we were.

We?ve bought their best player and he can?t (at the moment, at least) cut it in the EPL!

I?m only 21 and started going to the match in about ?93 - and last season was the only season I?ve been able to talk about Everton proudly (maybe Royle?s second season too).

?The Everton I love deserves better??? Get your head out of the sand, buddy. Every football fan thinks this. Oh boy - just name a better alternative than DM - mention a better side than the one we have now, mention a better side since 93 (including the cup winning side); this is all nonsense.

I listened to Arsenal fans complaining about Wenger tonight. Pretty much sums up certain footballs fans up to me: ungrateful, fickle and disloyal and that?s just a few adjectives to get the ball rolling - no offense.

Garry

The problem for people like you ? and like me for that matter ? is that you're a football fan . . . and an Evertonian.

Now I always believed them to be one and the same thing, but They?re not, you only have to read these pages to know that the finer points of the game are lost on some Evertonians. I read a post from Nelly Blythe the other day, trying to explain it to them, but I was shaking my head as I read it, I knew he was pissing against the wind

For this type of supporter ? and lets be clear about this, they are devoted Evertonians ? life is simple, they believe we cant match the sky four they also believe the result is all important, so finishing 5th will always be ok

There?s no mileage in Moyes bashing anymore: he?s staying. I?m afraid you?ve got two choices mate, you either stop going, or you hang in there hoping penny will drop with Moyesie and he?ll change his Philosophy

I?m opting for the latter, I?ll be at the Emirates tomorrow, cringing every time the collective cry of HOOOOOF comes from the Arsenal supporters.

I?ve also put a hefty slice of my hard earned on the 8/1 the bookies are offering for a blues win.


Show?s you what I know

"We?ve bought their best player and he can?t (at the moment, at least) cut it in the EPL! "

Sorry lad but this is exactly the point Gary is making. Fellaini would play better in a better side. At the moment, thats exactly what Standard Liege are.

The fact that their ?best player? can?t cut it with us (debatable), yet they are a better side, speaks volumes of the levels of commitment, skill and organisation of the Belgian Champions. Something we can only dream of having at the moment.

And that sucks.

"I?m only 21"

"last season was the only season I?ve been able to talk about Everton proudly"

and you have the cheek to tell others to get their head out the sand?

Nil Satis Nisi Modicus

Here we go yet again......
Most of us real Evertonians do honestly believe ?Tenth is Good?! We may WISH for more but in our somewhat straightened circumstances, our manager has to perform miracles to improve on that midway point and Chairman Bill has had to go to the limit to back him.
Be grateful for all we have... please!

In fact, tenth would be superb. I have it on the best authority from intimate friends at Goodison that Mr Moyes, supported by our humble yet forceful Chairman, will lead us ever onwards into the paths of that great Valhalla which is ninth.

I?m so ecstatically hapy about this prospect that I shall take yet another dose of the miraculous syrup my kindly doctor prescribes for me.

In fact, the first dose of syrup is already taking effect and my normally fault free spelling is becoming less than perfect, I fear.

Where was I. Oh yes, I was just about to explain how all REAL Evertonians with any modicum of the old grey matter think as I do. How fortunate for them! Perhaps we could be a little club where we know only good sense will be uttered and nought shall disturb the even tenor of our sunset days.
Bless you all, simpletons. Now, amuse me with your simple peasant chatter while I prepare for a doze.

I never agree with Doddy on anything and once again have to correct him.
After the start we?ve made, tenth would not be good but a fucking miracle! But with the manager happy once again and Captain Pip at the helm, what am I worrying about?
We are indeed blessed!

Gary, Gary, Gary. What can I say. You clearly are living in the past. If you cannot appreciate what David Moyes has done for our club. For years we were struggling at the lower end of the league battling against relegation, playing sub-standard football. Moyes has come in and with a limited budget in comparison to many other Premership teams, he has turned us into a team challenging and qualifying for Europe regularly.

What do you expect in this day and age? We have already finished fourth. Do you expect us, without further rmassive investment, to be finishing top? Two season ago, I remember the 3-0 victories against Newcastle, Portsmouth and the Red Shite. I also remember our great 7-1 destruction of Sunderland, where we played free-flowing attacking football. Hardly anti-football! Start living in the real world and appreciate the man who has revitalised our football club.

Gary you have hit the nail on the head there mate. A lot of our fans seem to be happy with mediocrity. I grew up with my dad drilling it into me that we are second to none. I just think there is something special about our club, that other clubs just don't have. We should never accept second best. It's our club motto.

Doddy, I don't know how you can be happy finishing tenth. We are Everton ? not Wigan or any other no-mark club.
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum!

It's not about accepting medocrity - whether we accept it or not is irrelevant to what happens in the future - it just is what it is. The only influence we have is whether we hand over our money or not.

If I refuse to accept that I?m never going to shag Angelina Jolie, does it make it more likely that it will happen?
Fingers crossed... (don't tell my wife)

What worries me is the players all are salary capped @ £40k, any prospective signing will be told the max we can pay you is £40k, but the manager is on £67k. Now if I?m a dedicated professional the salary difference would not bother me, but we live in a society of greed (especially football society) and when things start to go wrong people deflect blame away from themselves and the pay difference would be a good deflector! Of course if we improve from now on and people earn their win bonuses the I?m sure everthing will be fine, but how will the doubling of a managers pay packet improve the performance of the team, based on, we will be aquiring no new playing staff???

I have to agree with the analogy between Standard and Everton and also the Belarus team, if the players we have are man for man better or equal to these teams, then why do we play with no confidence or cohesion and surrender in every big game we play in?

Damian, if our fans continue to accept mediocrity ie finishing tenth is a great season or getting to the semi-finals of the Carling Cup was amazing, then the club won't feel they have to strive to be the best. We need a winning mentality throughout the whole club from the fans to the kit man to the chairman. We need the balls to start having a go at the established order and stop playing with 6 defenders to try and nick a goaless draw. It's embarrassing. We need to start thinking bigger as a club as a whole.

?Before we came here, they didn?t get many top ten finishes ? now it?s accepted as the very minimum. We?ve moved the club up a gear but we haven?t got the money the top four have so we?ve got to try and do it a different way.? ? David Moyes, July 2007.

So what?s changed? The man is doing his best!

Lee - totally agree with you that we need a winning mentality through the club. Totally agree that things will need to change radically (ie. financially more than anything else) to break the established order.

However, disagree that the fans having a "winning mentality" has the slightest impact. Fans of every club go to the game hoping or even expecting to win every game ? often in the face of all logic and probabilities. Newcastle fans have had a "winning mentality" for years believing they are a huge club ? and they?ve won what as a result? RS fans still believe every season they will win the league ? result? I just don't believe that whether we accept mediocrity or don't has the slightest relevance.

My Everton has only won the FA Cup. I've had years of shit and only Moyes has made me think we could be better than perennial relegation strugglers without massive resources. That's why he has my loyalty.

If he fails then he can fuck off because I only care about DM while he is the manager of Everton. I think the older Evertonians struggle to see what he has brought to our club because they have seen and enjoyed success and it's difficult to accept how far we have fallen.

I hope to see us challenging at the top but realistically it might never happen again. This is the main reason people list what he has done as "achievements" even though we all want success (trophies) but it is now harder than ever to achieve. I will still support Everton regardless.

You are 100% correct, Damian. What we think makes no difference whatsoever. Every club?s supporters would have their team win leagues and cups but only chairmen, managers and players working together can bring them what they aspire to. Sometimes teams get lucky and over-achieve but that never lasts. Usually teams/managers get stale and have to be replaced. There is no such thing as ?steadily building a team? ? the old bits need replacing before the new bits are ready.

Success is the right mix of wisdom and money ? the fans' aspirations mean fuck all!

Well said Gary Hughes. The performances against the RS and Chelsea in League Cup for example are indefensible.

Moyes has built a team of hard-working, slow, ?vertically challenged? players. Compare us to Standard Liege and the cost to build their team makes you wonder why on earth we have rewarded DM with a record 5-year deal.

I would disagree about Standard, they still got beat by RS, do we really want to emulate that? I would say a better analaogy is Arsenal, look at their team and how it probably cost the same as ours?

Almunia - Sagna - Clichy - Gallas (free) - Toure - Fabregas - Denilson they all cost buttons. Then you have Nasri about the same price as Fellaini - Walcott the same as Yak - Van Persie £3 Million - Adebayor £5 million.

Then look at Wenger, probably earning less than DM?!

My first match was in 1968 so I've sort of gone from the sublime to the ridiculous and back again. Up until fairly recently the supporters demanded success and demanded a certain brand of football. While we were so expectant we were always in with a shout.

Some of the younger fans have been brainwashed by Bill's Big Blue Bullshit Machine. While I accept CL money has ruined the game, I feel successive Everton boards have a lot to answer for. We've missed the boat on so many occasions it's unreal. The sad thing these days is that we seem to accept it.

I like Moyes. When he came to our club, he was told by Blue Bill and his cronies that we couldn't compete with the likes of Newcastle, Spurs and Villa in the transfer market so Davie set about building a team of 11 players who would be fitter than the rest and who would sweat blood for Everton.

Do you all remember when the players put their flip flops on as soon as we were safe because they didn't like his training methods? We should have sacked the fucking lot of em. Fans paying hard earned cash to watch that crap. Couldn't the players have just protested outside the managers office on a Monday morning?

Now I accept that Moyes is far too cautious against the top teams and the League Cup Semis against Chelsea left me tearing my hair out with frustration. Watched Chile show Argentina nil respect the other night and saw them come away with a 1-0 win. Why Davie can't addopt a similar tactic is beyond me. It's not like we are even having any success being over-cautious.

That said I do believe he is the right man for the job. Just now and again we catch little glimpses of what he is trying to do. Arsenal at Goodison last season is a good example. Good football, wrong result. I reckon we just need more fans like Lee Penswick's dad and we need to stop listening to the load of bollocks spewed out by the board.

I for one am not taken in by the latest Keith Harris caper. It's interesting that his extremely short statement should include a recommendation to surrender the city to the shite. Another of Bill's smokescreens. Can you imagine what it must be like to manage under this twat. He's a bigger fucking liar than my ex-wife and believe me that's saying something.

So leave Moyes alone get rid of Kenwright and let's have more of the attitude shown by Lee Penswick's dad.
WE ARE EVERTON
NIL SATIS NISI ? AND DONT YOU FUCKING FORGET IT BILL ? OPTIMUM.

Matt

For what its worth - Wenger is allegedly (depending on which source you believe) on £4.5M per year so significantly (and rightly) more than DM. He took over a decent squad (including one of the best ever back 5s plus Bergkamp for example) and then spent a lot of money (for the time) in his first few seasons. He also was fortunate with his timing that it was before the Champions League money had really kicked in to grossly unbalance the playing field.

Having said that, his judgement of a player, value for money and player development is exceptional since (although a lot of his youngsters are actually pretty expensive - Sagna £6M, Aduardo £7.5M, Ramsey £5.5M, Walcott £7.5M etc).

However, Wenger (in the best possible sense) is a freak - I dont think there has been a manager like him in the 35 years I?ve been watching football. He also has a rather different set up (stadium, backing etc) to work with. Using Arsenal as an analogy is unfair (and depressing) ? they?re a one off.

This split between Evertonians is spot on, but there is very simple reason... it all depends on our age.

You?ve got the under 30s (I?m in there) who were just a bit too young to experience the glorious 80s to its full. We?ll be pretty happy with a top 5 or 6 finish, because its better than the average season in the last 20 years.

Then there?s the 30-50 yr olds who were lucky enough to fully enjoy the 80s and expected us to beat everyone we played. That mentality is still there, and unfortunately they will be left dissapointed.

Somewhere in-between are the old fellas who?ve seen the bloody lot. The ups of the 60s and 80s, the reletive downs of 70s & 90s until now.

That?s just how I see it. I respect all Evertonians, and only wish I?d been there to fully enjoy the times when we battered any team we came accross. I?m not envious though, of the pain those Evertonians feel just because we?re ?average?!

Age my arse, I?m 35 and remember the 80s, I won?t be disapointed if we finish 5th, not one bit.

It's about being realistic y?know; the problem is that many people (Evertonians especially) think they have a divine right to be the best ? why exactly? Give me one good, tangible reason why we deserve to be the best above any other club??

Every supporter thinks THEIR team should be the best and we Evertonians are no different to RS fans, Utd fans or indeed Scunny or Morecambe fans ? you have to earn the right, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

If you remove your heads from the sand, as a whipper-snapper 21-year old said up top, then you might just see the trees for what they really are. Having a pop at someone for being 21 and therefore having a lesser opinion is rude, short-sighted and out of order ? football is about opinions and his is no less relevant than yours is you?re 21 or 65.

We?re the best of the rest at the moment, and that's better than being an also-ran. We may not be the best but we?re not going to be in the short term, we don't have the money, the ground, the backing, nothing that is going to get us up to the top - we do however, have an ambitious manager who (to my mind) has done wonders for this club.

David Moyes has my full backing, for what it's worth!

As Evertonians we are rightly proud of our history. So much so that we are even famous for knowing all about it in great detail. However, it seems to me that many of us are wallowing in this history and are looking at the present as if we were back in the 60s or 80s.

Up until the Sky generation we were actually a genuine big club. We had the ground, training facilities and boardroom resources, and history to prove this. Reasons, without doubt, to expect and demand (tangible) success. This didn?t however stop us having periods of not being very good. The 70s and relegation-haunted 50s being the main examples. These periods came despite us having money (the ability to pay British record fees) and a ground that held over 50,000.

Taking into account those above factors we are now left with having good facilities and the proud history. While the facilities can have an impact on the pitch the main differing factors are the lack of boardroom funds and the ground.

In the Golden Vision, John Moores says that we needed an average attendance of 33,000 to break even. Nowadays that doesn?t even begin to come close. We are therefore a team that has little money to spend and more often than not shows a year end defecit in terms of funds. I fail then to see how the team on the pitch can be expected to have the same targets and standards when they are not backed by the same resources as in previous generations.

Those who support Moyes do not do so by accepting mediocrity. People see what he has achieved with what has been available, and deem that he has peformed well. That is not to say that we do not want more improvement. We all crave a return to the championship-winning glory days of the past.

Hopefully we will soon be taken over and Moyes will be given the funds that will allow a fair comparison with managers past. Until then I?m afraid that Nil Satis Nisi Optimum is restricted by the caveat of "when compared with relative funds available".

Some really good and interesting points. Also begs the question what is meant in our motto by the best ? it doesn't necessarily have to mean being the most successful.

I don't want us to be taken over by some billionaire if it means (which it will) turning us into a vapid Chelsea-clone with everything that I despise about modern-day football.

The best for me isn't necessarily winning the league or the Champions League (another tournament that I loathe) ? it's being as successful as we can be whilst remaining a club that I can identify with and connect to ? otherwise, what's the point?

Unfortunately my definition probably limits us to mediocrity with the occasional cup win ? but for me that's better than the alternative.

Footballs fucked ? all we can do is hoover up the crumbs that are left to us while trying to keep a degree of integrity.

I noticed the issue of older/younger support (and how they/we see all things Everton) has been discussed here. Generally, I usually ?get? what a lot of the older support have to say and tend to agree with a lot of them - eg: Gary Hughes, Tony Marsh (my first game - 68 etc).

I often get annoyed with (what I see as the) younger element?s more forgiving view of the running of Everton and what I perceive as their acceptance of second rate. They on the other hand, no doubt see me (and those with similar views, of similar age) as ?living in the past? and ? arl narks?.

I suppose that is natural and understandable and personally, I wouldn?t totally dispute it (I would instead say ?come join me...it?s wonderful here in 1985!?). First of all, I think the rules of human nature play a big part in all this. Here are two of those rules: 1) Everything was better years ago. 2) Everyone?s gone soft these days.

When I was a kid, I would sigh constantly after the match, as I walked to my Nan?s with my ?arl feller? and/or Grandad and had to listen to how Latchford couldn?t lace the boots of Tugger McGhee or T.L Wainwright or..whoever.

Come to think of it, perfect example ? Big Dunc. I mean If you?ve only got Brett Angel to compare him with, he?s God. He?s not so great however if you?ve seen Young, Ball, Royle, Sharp etc. I would also have to listen to tales of how Big Ron Turnip continued to play on, after having his pelvic bone turned to dust, by a tackle from Rotherham?s Alf Twat.

One point I would like to make make is about the ferocity with which I (and a few other ?oldies?) sometimes express our opinions. This is possibly an ?age thing? and a result of us being a pre-Opra Winfrey generation. In other words, in ?our day?, things COULD be ?our fault? and if people were shite at stuff, you could (and would) say he/she is shite.

My opinion is that in my time watching Everton, that harshness and unwillingness to accept anything less than perfect HAS paid off. "What?" (some of) you might cry - "Slaggin them off like!?" Er...yes actually, I?m all for it.

Managers, players, Chairmen ? they don?t perform, they get it in the neck from me. "Yeah but you?re undermining their confidence" I hear. My response to that is - with the best will in the world - fuck their confidence! They should stop being such tarts and ?suck it up? (it?s a ?man?s game and...other bluff stuff).

It?s now part of Everton legend how Johnny Carey went. Harsh? Certainly....and your point is? Now of course there?d be loads saying ?We were in the second division a few years back ? he?s doing a good job, you?re never satisfied?. Not true ? I WAS satisfied..... by the titles and FA cup Catterick (WHO REPLACED HIM!!) won.

In the 60?s we were a decent side and always ?involved?. We had a manager (and a chairman) who not only wanted to win, but wanted to win ?well?. And that?s what he did. When he didn?t (or couldn?t) anymore? Well let?s just say he got old and sick and...?went?.

Bingham (who got a ?Champion?s League? spot) got the boot, even though we were in the League Cup semis (something else now touted as ?success?). Harsh on him? Possibly, but fine with me. Gordon Lee also finished in a ?Champions League?; (ie: third) spot and got us to two FA Cup semis, but it wasn?t enough for some supporters..... like me.

At the moment, booing players and performances is being discussed. BOOING!!? If supporters hadn?t let the board know in 83-84 that they and/or Howie needed to get their finger/s out sharpish (or fuck off!), we might have won fuck-all.

It seems to many Evertonians of my generation, there are too many prepared to accept 2nd best (and by 2nd, I mean 4th, 5th and 6th). I can?t and won?t. Of COURSE it?s possible that ultimately, I?m being ?unrealistic? or even wrong (as if!) but does that mean I shouldn?t keep pushing for better?

Does that mean I should only speak in positive terms about Moyes, Kirkby, Neville, Kenwright, even though I believe NONE of them are good enough for Everton? It?s simply not going to happen.

If I think we?re being pushed towards mediocrity by supporters eager to accept cack ? I?ll say say so. I understand TOTALLY however that my views and opinions will, certainly by many younger blues, be interpreted as ?shite? and me as ?an arl nob-ead?. Fine - in the Generation Game, it was ever thus: ?Give us a twirl, Anthea my love!?

While I am far from the oldest, my history does go back to 1947 (not all clear memories but they are very happy).

We went down in the 50s & came back quickly. We then had the "John Moores Money Era" when WE were THE team with money!!! and the "glorious sixties" teams. There followed the so dull 70s (Bingham? Lee etc) only to return to the great 80s... etc etc. you all now " The History".

So we must accept that over the years we have had quite a roller coaster existence. But now! Yes, the game has changed dramatically... whether for the good or bad is a matter of individual opinion and/or generation? Being realistic, today it is mostly about money and it would seem that reluctantly we might need to admit that at present the "little fat waiter" may have had a point with his small club comment (moneywise)...

While I do appreciate that Bill Kenwright's rescue & later David Moyes's then necessary efforts probably rescued us from relegation, the "style of football"??? Today is among the most depressing I can recall in all my years. Maybe we cannot finish in the top four but why do we appear constantly in fear of the bigger fixtures? Surely the very least we are entiled to is total commitment and an effort to entertain. Sorry Mr Moyes but at present watching Everton games is generally... "SIMPLY BORING"

EJ,
Spot on- come to think of it, if I hadn?t ran on the pitch against Leeds we would never have pulled two goals back. Pity they scored three (and one by a certain G Speed!).

EJ, a more reasoned argument than most who are not happy with the current set-up manage to put across. However, I must take issue on your point about the 60s.

Yes, Carey was (harshly) replaced; and, yes, that treatment was fully justified by the success that followed. But the inescapable fact is that the Cat was backed by THE biggest transfer budget in the country.

I?m not doing his achievements down as money must be spent wisely and a team moulded, but the fact remains he was incredibly well funded by John Moores. The same goes for the managers in the 70?s. They were given the chance to spend NATIONAL record fees on players.

I take your point about having both a manager and chairman who want to win and win well. I think we still have one of those, it?s just a shame about the other.

Gareth, you?re right when you say, "the Cat was backed by THE biggest transfer budget in the country". He was. But as I have stated in the past, there is a world of difference between richer, as we were then, and a trillion, zillion, grillion times richer as Chelsea are now.

Our wealth then can in no way be compared to that of the big four now. In the 60s and 70s when people said ?money doesn?t guarantee success? they were right. These days I?d ask ?how much money are we talking about??

All I ever hear is, "it's all about money now." True, CL money is killing the game. Some of you say you would rather stay true to traditions than have a billionaire. Fine, I too would rather Platini got his way and Sky got fucked off etc etc but if we are going to have a realatively poor Chairman why not have one who doesn't bullshit us invests modestly in our stadium. Puts 11 first teamers on the park. I'm not against Bill cos hes skint who isn't. I'm against him because he is full of shit, can't put a full team on the pitch and wants to surrender the city to Liverpool. Does anyone know of a club from a two team city other than Wimbledon who have tried this in the Modern era? I have no argument with young lads who say Moyes has done OK because he has. I just find it so frustrating that so many are taken in by Bill. Some of you mention crap years under Lee, Bingham etc but at least we were getting a sniff of success in the cups etc.