I suspect this will be the new theme for the Moyes doubters... who now have a rich vein of ammunition to fire at the manager's less-than-convincing performances this season. Meanwhile, on the other side of the aisle, his staunch supporters will see nothing amiss ... except for the shocking lack of faith their estranged fellows have in their Moyesiah!

And thus the chasm ever widens... I must say, it does astound me that there are people who can "look for the positives", who can blithely ignore the overall run of the game and the final dreadful result ? which is all that really matters at the end of the day. Yes, we may have played some nice football for some brief and fleeting moments... but surely the responsibility of your mind's reminiscence is to embrace the totality of what went down, and not to somehow magically isolate and savour the rare good bits while you absolutely reject, ignore, deny all the bad bits that doomed this game to its all-too-inevitable conclusion.

Pretty much every post I've read has some merit in its scathing post-match analysis. Yes, we each may see the match somewhat differently from each-other, and argue about the details, but by far the vast majority who have taken time to write in were not best pleased with what they saw... Yet there are those who decry their "moaning", who are seemingly content with yet another loss, because it was mega-rich (sic) Arsenal... those perennial apologists who make their excuses for yet another dismal second-half performance.

I have to admit, I just don't understand them.

Moyes wanted and needed to add to the squad sooner than he did. It has disrupted the season so far but I expect we will soon fix things and start to climb the table. Still, I believe we are only a couple of players away from being able to challenge for a Champions League place... Call me mad but I believe in the players and I believe in Moyes. I am sick of all the negative crap on here. COYB

"..........surely the responsibility of your mind?s reminiscence is to embrace the totality of what went down, and not to somehow magically isolate and savour the rare good bits while you absolutely reject, ignore, deny all the bad bits that doomed this game to its all-too-inevitable conclusion....."

Jesus that?s a hell of a sentence Michael.

I will immediately go to my psychologist and ask him to sort out my mind. I must get my mindset to fit with that of the Editor.

I?d be careful here Michael. Your intention may well be to write a balanced comment but it just comes over as saying any other view from the majority is irresponsible, "blithely" ignoring what you see and posted by "perennial apologists".

That kind of comment from the Editor restricts debate (which is one of the points of this site isn?t it?).

Interesting, Michael! I am of the opinion that 'apologist' is a term which shouldn?t be used on this site. It?s all too easy to tar everyone who doesn?t hate Moyes and want him out, with that brush.

Maybe all the ?apologists? should start calling the anti-Moyes brigade ?whiny bitches?.

Anyway, back to the point of the post, 3 points dropped in 45 minutes. The first half was OK, not great, but OK. We played some good football in brief patches and a fair bit of hoofball. I thought Pienaar was really good and Rodwell was promising in the defensive role, still looked inexperienced in certain situations but was pretty good on the ball.

The 2nd half was about as bad as I?ve seen. OK the 47th minute equaliser negates the majority of Moyes half-time talk. But the galling aspect of the match yesterday was the inevitability of their 2nd goal.

I was watching on TV and could see that goal coming for a good 10/15 minutes. There was no outlet, Yakubu was totally isolated and did his best to make the ball stick, but constantly had 2 or 3 defenders surrounding him. Fellaini, who was Yak?s main support in the first half, was sucked deeper as Arsenal piled on the pressure and we failed to relieve it.

Around 65 minutes in, there needed to be a change. We were being pummeled and Moyes needed to act, to change the flow of the game. Saha or Vaughan on for one of the wee midfielders would have at least given us a slightly better outlet from the pressure. But once the second went in, the contest was over.

This one isn?t going to help Moyes?s cause. The blame lies squarely at his feet for at least 2 of the points. I still believe that he has earned himself some time to adapt to the task of taking us from Uefa Cup spot challengers to hoping to break the Sky 4 (now 5?)

Can?t say I?m hoping for too much from the United game.

Just watching the game on tv again, it is clear we have no leaders in the team. The players look bewildered all the time, no talking, no fist clenching. Nothing. Just shock.

Moyes has had 2 years to find a replacement for Carsley and he has dithered as usual. Therefore, Moyes has to take the blame for the balance of the team, especially the midfield. There is no-one in that midfield that I would class as a midfield defender who can win a ball. No good having flair players if we canot compete in the most important part of the pitch.

Imagine if we would have signed Moutinio for £18 mill or so ? where would he have played? we would then have had the smallest midfield in football history.

We need some competitive players to sign in Januray or we are in a relegation battle because we are too soft througout the team.

So Ged, it?s the idiosycratic opinions of Michael Kenrick, formed over a myriad of years, life experience and pure happenstance that are the main culprits for EFC being fucking crap then? One sure can live and learn!!! Pity Ged doesn?t!!

The team?s results from last Feb are awful. Moyes has really fucked up this close season, and BK should shoulder a lot of the blame, we were fed lie after lie that he was going to sign his contract. Utter bullshit.

We are facing a long long relegation-fighting season, there is no backbone to this team and it comes from the top.

How the fuck Osman gets in a Premier League team beggars belief. He is slow, weak and worst of all is guilty of hiding in every big came he plays in.

So Ped, you?re sick of all the ?negative crap? on Toffeeweb?

Well here?s a little nugget of ?negative crap? that I found on Toffeeweb, but sadly it?s not just restricted to TW, as it says exactly the same on EVERY footy site you may care to mention:

16 Everton 8 -6 8

I dare someone, anyone (even Richard Dodd), to put a positive spin on our current league position. And it will be worse come the final whistle next week.

And as for the ?well who would you rather have? brigade? Give me strength!!!! I don?t believe there is a single Blue in the entire universe advocating the return of Mike Walker or Walter Smith, so using that as a comparison is quite absurd. However, they are not the only football managers in the world. Tony Marsh is forever being hauled over the coals for not proposing alternatives for Moyes, but you know something? It?s not Tony?s job to do that, nor is it mine, nor indeed any Everton fan?s. That responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of Blue Bill and the board. There are MILLIONS of coaches and managers out there in the wide world. Surely ONE of them would be suited for the Everton job. Someone that understands the needs and expectations of us, the fans. Because unless I am severely mistaken, we are the whole raison d'être of the club?

I am also sick to death of seeing a team representing Everton, MY Everton, shitting themselves to death whenever we face the ?Big 4?, home or away. As someone said in another thread, better to just give them the 24 points and be fucked with it. So we played well for (and I?m being generous) 30 minutes yesterday ? and if I recall correctly, even in that first 30 minutes Arsenal were ?getting in behind? us almost at will ? but for the remaining 60 minutes we got absolutely battered.

Another thing. Is it me or do all of the teams we face seem to be an awful lot fitter than us? Our guys look dead on their feet after an hour.... usually when the purest hoofball starts.

Three months ago I would have been made up at the news that Moyes had signed his new contract. On Tuesday morning, all I could do was groan.

A couple of other things from yesterday. Tim Howard?s downward slide has been much documented, but what on earth was that chest-high two-fisted punch when he was completely unchallenged? Catch the fucking thing!!!

Hibbo tried his best to get sent off after the challenge on Nasri. Many other refs would have shown red for the ?afters? with Clichy.

It looked to me like Baines might, just might, have been able to clear Van Persie?s header if he?d attempted to use his right foot.

Fellaini was IMHO much better yesterday, but it?s relative - coming off an extremely low base - but he needs to wake up. Caught dwelling on the ball far too often.

Ozzie is just too lightweight and went missing for at least 45 minutes...? as did Arteta.

In fact I?m too fed up to continue. Oh well lads. You have your wish. 5 more years of this.

Messrs Tevez, Berbatov, Rooney & Co must be shitting themselves.

We’re shit and we know we are, We’re shit and we know we are, We’re shit and we know we are, We’re shit and we know we are, We’re shit and we know we are!!

As Alan Shearer said last night, "Everton will be OK".

I think that says it all.

Watching us at the minute is a bit like watching that film " Final Destination", you just know it?ll be a complete horror show and we all know how it will end before we starts!!!

The one thing I want from Dave Moyes is to send Everton out on to the pitch with these words: attack attack all the time... this playing one up front is so negative and boring ? if we are going to lose lets do it with a bit of guts.

Dont worry, Phil Neville will be in the papers this week saying Everton will bounce back with a vengeance from the defeat. Where does he get his crap from? COYB.

Sack the board, sack the board, sack the board... oh wait, for a moment there I thought I was a reactionary supporter who lashes out when things aren?t going my way...

What I meant to say was... we got a second-half beating from a team that play the best football in Europe, at their ground.

Was it Moyes's half-time team talk that fucked us over? Or was it Walcott in the best form of his career so far coming on?

Fuck it, that?s too sensible isn?t it?

So John, you have offered your excuse for the Arsenal defeat "From a team that play the best football in Europe, at their ground". I could have sworn Hull beat them at their own ground the other week, John? Maybe I was dreaming?

I was wondering if you could enlighten us, John, with your seemingly high grasp on reality, what happened with Blackburn (twice ) Pompey, Hull, Newcastle, Liege, the shite? Maybe I am just being ?reactionary? but I would put those games down to us being fucking shite, maybe I?m wrong? I?m sure you will tell me I am...

Brian, it's not woth it mate. Like I have been saying for years, it's partly down to a section of our fanbase we are in this shit. They just lap this crap up and come back for seconds.

The only defence they offer for the shambles Moyes is presiding over is that it's much better than the Smith days; well it's not ? it's just as bad because Moyes has had far greater spending power than Smith ever had and still we play the same way.

The bottom 3 at Xmas awaits us and the team of short-arse midgets DM has assembled won't be able to cope with a relegation dogfight. Then what?

If we did go down this season we would have to keep Moyes on because of this stupid contract deal and we know the squad isn't brave enough to fight thier way back up. Moyes will still be here if we went down another division... I think its very scary being an Evertonian these days.

I?ll be fair to Moyes, and admit that he would make a fine manager of a boys' Sunday League team. In this role, he would get average boys to kick a ball hard and run towards goal. But place him anywhere near a job that requires him to build something from scratch, and you?re in trouble. The man will only play and purchase players that he likes personally. He?s afraid of flair and excitement. He?s a methodical, dour man and I?m growing increasingly tired of his pathetic tactics and absurd post-match comments and excuses. Bill has just made the biggest mistake of his chairmanship in agreeing to pay this man nearly £20M.

I?ll tell you what, Brian, Hull's result at the Emirates was an upset. I think I?m right in saying that Arsenal haven?t been beaten in consecutive home league games for 5 years. Do you know what that means? It means they?re a good team who are difficult to beat, as in... most teams who go there lose.

We have been shite in a few games this season. We do have defensive problems. It?s a problem that Moyes needs to sort out. I?d suggest 5 at the back for a short time but can you imagine the fans and the sites if that happened? You?d all be like fucking rainman!

Tony, all you do is whine and critisize. You seem like a masochist, even after a good result, you?ll be on here complaining about something or warning of a potential failure. I think you crave failure so that you can justify your negative views of the board, chairman, manager, players, tea lady, mascots or whoever is the latest target for your poisonous bile.

This is the reality... the team is leaking goals, it seems to me to be a confidence thing so the last thing they need is people on their back. How about not being a whinger and try getting behind the fucking team.

Stephen

The point I was making was about balanced debate. And the responsibility the editor of this site has to encourage this and not run with the majority.

If he had said Moyes was just having a dip in form, you and many would have gone ape shit. The key being, an editor?s view is important as it can make others less confident hold back their contribution and thus hinder debate.

This is not about the view expressed by MK but that he shouldn?t try and guide opinion.

Though we are not all perfect eh? I shouldn?t call you a fucking half wit.

Tony has got a point, John, as long as we have fans like you who are happy to just accept the dross we are being served up, and not rock the boat, Moyes will always be untouchable.

Brian, Has he really "got a point"? Is it really "dross"? Are you really "rocking the boat"?

You, Tony Marsh and the fellow boat-rockers are undermining the club with your fucking whiney negativity. If you don?t want to support the club then DON?T. You won?t be missed. Jesus, all the boat rockers want is for everyone to lose their jobs. That?s the answer to everything on this site. "Bill?s got to go, Moyes should go."

How about a debate on what we think is the way out of this serious lack of form. Every fucking post from you guys is slagging someone off. There is no knowledge being imparted, no opinions on how to move forward. The only debate seems to be whether everyone should be sacked or not.

How about bigging the players up instead of putting them down all the time? A massive part of this game is confidence and reputation, you?re damaging both.

One last thing. Tony Marsh, I reckon that if you were in Rocky?s corner while he?s getting a pasting from Apollo Creed, you?d be throwing in the towel and trying to sack him. "Rocky, you?re a midget, you're worthless. Mr T could do better than you, you?re wife?s got a boys name."

John Gee

Spot on

John, if you want to see negativity, you don?t need to look any further than a certain Mr David "negative, clueless, shithouse, wouldn?t know a tactic if it smacked him in the mouth" Moyes.

Also John, I?m sorry I?m not a gullible, I mean ?true supporter? like you.

Ged

I know exactly what you were saying - you provide a balanced assessment of all things EFC on every occasion, without resorting to ad hominem comments and wild accusations ? it seems to me that you are far too intelligent for this site!

"I?d suggest 5 at the back for a short time but can you imagine the fans and the sites if that happened? You?d all be like fucking rainman!"

Thank you John for cheering me up on a bleak Monday morning....absolute classic, coffee all over my monitor moment

Stephen Stuart

"ad hominem " Not sure if I can deal with Latin but I should admit that personal attack was inexcusable.

Apologies from the cold light of a Monday.

John Gee:

I take it you are looking for some positive feedback to the endless whinging etc, well, John, What if we can coach the team to pass to each other? I think that would be an improvement.

How about we pass the ball a few yards in front of a player so that he can continue with his run instead of stopping and having to go back to collect a pass.

I wonder how it is that when I watch another team they seem to pass and move, Maybe that's what our team should do.

Why is it that when our opponents get a throw in they seem to be able to have the time to control the ball look at the options and pass the ball-watch our use of a throw in, also can someone coach Arteta to cross the ball higher than the first defender and just maybe we could use Baines to take the odd corner on the right a la Hinchcliffe. But what the fuck do I know, we need a manager on £3m a year to develop the team, and he is doing a great job at the moment, NOT as my grandson would say.

The present tactics are not working we are losing week in week out, there is something very wrong at the club IMHO.

Steve, I agree. Things are starting look a little pear shaped.

What would make it worse is if we threw the baby out with the bath water. Our expectations are higher because of our present manager so I think that he has earned the time to put things right.

We need someone like Roy Keane in the team. A guy who will push the individuals, shout about the mistakes and most importantly spot the danger when it?s still at the half-way line. (How many times did he launch himself at someone there before they had a chance to play a pass?)

There are plenty of things for David Moyes to look at, including all the things you mentioned, but I still get the impression that this is a confidence thing more than anything. The players must have noticed every man and his dog saying that Carsley was the insurance policy for the defence. He?s missed but he wasn?t that good. The defence just need to realise that.

Let's not get ridiculous about things though, it?s a terrible start. But we?ve seen this kind of start before and then watched as they?ve turned it around. With Fellaini settling down in and Cahill soon back I think we?ll be a little more dynamic in midfield thereby taking some pressure of the defense and giving something for our strikers to do apart from chasing clearances.