Totally agree with you... he has simply given up since May... and if the manager gives up, how can we expect players to perform well? However, I think you?re wrong about just one thing: we are NOT close to relegation, we ARE relegating because we are not able to win a match. I?m almost sure about this and I?ll wait until the end of November at the end of a run of theoretically winnable matches...

What Moyes says may be true, but in saying so we’ve just raised the white flag. If our leader has given up what hope in hell have the players got? Instead of instilling confidence now we’ve got inferiority complex to deal with. And what’s the point in signing a new 5-year contract knowing you’ll settle with mediocrity?

Baffled, didn’t expect Everton to be quitters no matter how dire the situation is.

Unfortunately I see a manager telling the truth, how many anti-Moyes people on here have said that we have been punching above our weight for years and the classic Marsh post, "We got 4th in spite of Moyes"

The group of players we have are simply nowhere good enough to obtain what we want them to. We are a limited team which has been found out by the others, who have all spent a hell of a lot more than we have.

It?s not rocket science, you buy good (expensive) players then generally your team improves, we try and buy one good player a season, as that is all our budget merits.... the other teams around us manage to but 3 or 4.

You all may see this as an excuse but after reading the tripe on this site for so many weeks now I really don?t care.

We can only do the best with what we have but unfortunately what we have is not good enough.

So do we now castigate our manager because he speaks his mind and what he believes to be the truth?..... hang on I forgot what site I am on, of course we do.

Tony, I have to disagree with you slightly. For whatever reason Everton Football Club is in turmoil at the moment. I suspect it is the move to the "Tescodome" but that is just my opinion.

Spurs have spent a lot of money but they are bottom of the league! Newcastle seem to change their manager every five minutes, and also spend money, and they are down there too.

It is no good Moyes keep on trotting out excuses for the performance of the team. He has to act and act quickly before we do find ourselves in the mire. I think his attitude is doing the team no favours whatsoever. And I cannot for the life of me believe that he has been rewarded for his ineptitude.

Is it fair that players who last year toiled to get fifth place should be expected to do the same or better when the bar has been raised so much higher now by the acquisitions that many of our rivals have been able to make over the summer. How much did O’Neill and Redknap spend? What about Mark Hughes? How can some of you just such an important issue?

Perhaps Moyes is trying to take the ridiculous amount of pressure that is on our players off them so we can find our true level again.

Perhaps the boo boys are right though and things are actually unravelling into relegation this year. Who knows. I remain optimistic as I have a bit more faith in Moyes than that. He has done fantastically well for us so far, I don’t care what anyone says. If he’s "lost it" only time will tell. Doesn’t look in any way a foregone conclusion yet however. We should shut up about it for now and talk about it again after Christmas when the lie of the land is clearer to see.

When we were finishing 4th and challenging for the top 6 for the last few seasons (and there is no reason we cant do it this season too), there was not the amount of teams then that had as much money as there is now, so he can afford to use the excuse to an extent. Maybe he is putting pressure on Bill to sell or making sure that it is kept in the media that we have no cash and are desperate for a buyer! Also, yes, Spurs spent alot of cash, but they recouped most if not all of it by selling their best players, hence why they are bottom of the league!

It?s ridiculous to say Moyes has given up. He?s just signed a mega-contract and has a great future to look forward to. Whether or not there is a new owner by Christmas, he must insist that money is made available for at least three new players ?in the window.? We desperately need a commanding goalkeeper, central defender (with real presence) and a replacement for Carsley. If Kenwright can?t find it then he should sell the likes of Baines, Yobo and Vaughan to raise the cash.

He?s not given up but is just a bit distracted at the moment, working out what to spend his extra £35,000 a week on!!!

Every time your team walk on to the pitch they should think they are the best set of players in the league. Every time they read a comment from the Manager it should be about how good the team is. Moaning about money says to your squad ?they are a bit sub-standard but it is all we can afford.? He should be saying he just needs a few more of the same standard to account for injuries. If the squad lack confidence it is down to one person, the manager.

Tony Williams - Referring to your third paragraph
"you buy good expensive players and generally your team improves"... did you see Man City last night - look what they have spent and they have 9 points from 7 games - and oh yes Mark Hughes got some of his new players in well before the deadline!!!

I have to agree with most of Joey?s posting, I myself wrote an article a month or two ago titled "Excuses, excuses, excuses" and within it I pointed out what Mr Moyes put our recent results down to: we had no money (although he asked for treble his wages!), injuries, not ready to win Premier League games, maybe his not signing a contract was affecting the players, new players need time to gel etc, the same as most pro-Moyes supporters will reiterate.

I personally do not think he has given up making excuses for his tired tactics and poor management but he has given up on improving his own tactical nous and laying the blame where it should be, at his feet. Now wouldn?t that be more honest?

Nah, Tony Williams is right; none of this is the fault of David Moyes... I mean it's not David Moyes who signed.

Richard Wright ? £5 million gone
James Beattie ? £6 million gone
Simon Davies ? £4 million gone
Per Krøldrup ? £5million gone
Andy Johnson ? £12million gone
Phil Neville ? £4 million crap
Leighton Baines ? £5 million crap
Marouane Fellaini ? £15 million crap
AdvM ? £3 million crap
Leon Osman ? 5 more years CRAP

Pistone, Weir, Naysmith, Hibbert, all re-signed at one time or another and all CRAP. Yes, you'r right, Tony ? it's nowt to do with Moyes, this mess we are in.

Slight correction here Patty. They have 9 points from seven games ?

Moyes should not have got a new contract. The club desperately needs a fresh approach. Moyes looks tired and I feel he has gone as far as he can. In our last 17 Premier League games we have gained 17 points, that?s 38 over a season and right in the relegation battle. We have only beaten Derby [relegated], WBA and Stoke [just promoted] and Newcastle [bottom 3]. This season we have also let in more goals than any other team. The money spent on Fellaini could have bought 4 good experienced Premier League players. His transfer dealings over several seasons have been poor and his record in cup competitions pathetic. And it is all everyone?s fault except Moyes!!!

Hang on, Mr Marsh, shouldn?t you have included the wages of Anthony Gardiner, Matteo Ferrari, the mercurial Stefan Wessels and Steve Round.? I wonder why we are financially struggling. How can we afford to give the manager all those wages if we are up the swanny? I suggest you brace yourself for Mr Williams coming back with Arteta £2 million, Cahill £2.5 Million, Lescott £5million... mind you, I cannot think of any more!

Tony Marsh... I hate to imagine how you got through Walter Smith's and Kendall's 2nd and 3rd spells in charge.

I get the distinct impression that you love it when we don't win a game, just so you can justify your vitriol towards Moyes.

A question to all the anti-Moyes brigade... who would you bring in to replace him??

Taking into account financial restrictions, wage structures, competition from other wealthier clubs when bidding for players and offering wages etc etc.

If that quote from Moyes is actually true, then I am flabbergasted.

In my opinion we wasted a golden chance to finish 4th last season. I blamed the Uefa Cup distraction and some terrible tactical decisions and performances by Moyes in the last half of the season.

We blew it last year and I for one wasn?t celebrating finishing 5th.

How the fuck can Moyes justify the sale of AJ right now? I know he hasn?t scored for Fulham but he is a lot better than Vaughan and Anichebe.

Moyes right now sounds like a moaning twat.

Also just to put into perspective how big of a contract Moyes has just signed... When Sven got the England job he was on a massive £4m a year contract.

How the fuck is Moyes worth £3.5m a year??

And Kenwright is telling us Kirkby is the only option. He hasn’t got a clue.

Moyes's "and it's all about the money" moan... I wonder how much Hull spent this year on players? Nnot as much as we spent on 1 player I would think, I may be wrong. But they don?t care, look where they are at the moment. Not bad for a team that cost next to nothing. But eh give it time, if thy get fucked by Liverpool they can use our excuse.

Paul Mosses........."A question to all the anti-Moyes brigade... who would you bring in to replace him??" What?s the name of the Standard Liege manager again? I?m sure he probably earns nowhere near what Moyes gets for standing on the touchline looking confused.

Alex Ferguson:

Massimo Taibi
Jordi Cruyff
Juan Veron
David May, Prunier
Diego Forlan

Wenger:
Luzhny, Grimandi, Jeffers

Benitez: Too many to mention

Chelsea?s lot: Bogarde, Crespo, Shevchenko, Boulahrouz, Mutu and so on....

What?s your point Mr Marsh? Managers tend to cock up every now and then when it comes to signing players?

I have always been a Moyes supporter. Haven?t always enjoyed the football but you couldn?t argue with what he has achieved to date. I?ve been sympathetic to the financial constraints on him and the massive difference in budget with the top 4 and a few other clubs now. I?ve never EXPECTED top 4 finishes but obviously hoped that we might continue to improve and maybe get a foot in the UCL door.

However, I do think he has lost the plot this summer. The pre-season was a shambles. The way the contract has dragged out has been a joke. The on-going summer transfer (in)activity was ridiculous. Apart from the white flag statement above, he has come out with a few other gems...

"Fellaini is not the new Carsley" - ok Dave, well who the fuck is then?

After the Liege away game, he thought that we played well and had plenty of possession and were "coming into form" - Sorry Dave, Liege LET US have lots of possession because they knew we wouldn?t break them down easily and they?d hit us on the counter attack. And, dropping Yobo is not going to solve our defensive issues Dave!

The biggest worry for me is not the results to date (although they are hugely disappointing) but the fact that DM doesn?t seem to "get it" anymore.

At least were not Spurs!!

Tony Marsh, you can call him a lot of things, but ?accountant? isn?t one of them:-

Richard Wright £3.5M gone
James Beattie £6.5M ? £4M = £2M gone
Simon Davies £3.5M ? £3M = £0.5M gone
Per Krøldrup £5M ? £3.5M = £1.5M gone

Andy Johnson £8.5M ? £10.5M = £2M gained
Bent £0.5M spent, £2M = £1.5M gained

We?ll not mention the players that are worth more than we paid.

You can make figures say what you want.

Tell you what Alex Ferguson must be really shit, going by your approach. Veron for £28M?!? Djemba-Djemba for £5M! Kleberson £6M! Alan Smith £7M! Taibi £4.5M!

Let?s not mention the £15M he spent on Howard and Saha, who are so unbelievably, ludicrously shit that they are only good enough to play for David Moyes at Everton.

Please.

Andrew I have no intention of coming back with Arteta etc etc, as I have no intention of getting into a debate with Mr Marsh and his vitriolic rants.

I did note that he seem a little off with his valuation though, £12m for AJ, I was convinced it was £8.6m.

As I said I have no intention of getting to anything with Mr Marsh, as it would be like shouting at an elephant to not be heavy. He is an angry man who hates Moyes, nothing ever will change that. If we ever won anything he would moan about the goal we conceeded or something.

He has somehow brought in Moyes’ transfer dealings in a discussion about how we do no not have the spending power of the teams above us, relevant in the context of the opening thread but not the way he has included it, just to breate players bought by Moyes. His fantastic insights into how everyone has to be sacked and offers nothing constructive at all. Pointless threads on the same topic every time.

No sir, I will not attempt to debate with him, as I may as well debate with an apple.

Still not the talk of a man we want managing our club. I just hope that he knows something that we don’t.

We knew when Man City got taken over at the start of this season that the football landscape in England was changing. It’s already tough for a lot of teams and it’s not going to get easier.

I’d still prefer Moyes to bring the "bollocks to it, we’ll still have a good go" attitude that brought us close to CL football. Maybe he’s having a rethink after the 2nd half at the Emirates.

Could I take your place Tony? I’ve been crying out for ages to have a debate with him!

To be fair, he has his point with the transfers, though he’s judging Fellaini way too early!! But yeah, here is the list of good buys

Arteta 2.5 m
Cahill 1.5m
Lescott 5m
Howard 3m
Pienaar 2.5m
Yobo 4.5m
Yakubu 11m
Fellaini 15m (might possibly say that in a year time)

As what has been pointed out, every manager has made bad buys, but considering the values of all the players mentioned (except maybe Yakubu and Fellaini), they are worth a hell of a lot more now. So Moyes has done some good buys!!

Gary Hughes..... the Liege manager may be doing a great job at Liege but Ramos done a great job at Seville.

Then he comes to England and seemingly hasn't got a jar of glue what he?s doing.

Just because some foreign manager is doing well in a tin pot league doesn't mean he can come over to England and produce miracles.

I wonder if Bayern Munich fans are thinking "Let's get that Hull manager Phil Brown in, he?ll do a great job for us, look at what he?s done for Hull"..

Ben Jones, can you add Bent for 450k, Kilbane for 1M and Nigel Martyn for 500k to your list please? Average players, except Martyn, they may have been, but they did the necessary at the time.

IF Moyes said what you have quoted he has been incredibly stupid. Not because he told te truth but that he did it in public.
That message he has sent to his team and any potential signings is made clear, we can’t compete so why bother.
The fact is we have competed well over the past few years and why is that? yes because the team had a belief in the manager when he said they were good enough to compete at the top table.
Do you think for a moment it will inspire his team to perform against the top 4? or have they given up before they start?

Moyes may well be pragmatic about his sides ability. We all KNOW we can;t compete financially but we expect our team to compete to the best of their ability.
We expect the manager will motivate to get 120% because if the top four have an off day and operate at 80% it will be the only way we will get a look in of a result.

Moyes has taken comparitely low cost punts on players ( in comparison to the money spent by the 4) some worked out others didn;t. We are shopping in TJ Hughes not Harrods.

Marshy?s list makes a good case for having a ?technical director? or some such. Then the manager can always blame him it the signings are no good.
Oh, and by the way, how about that Da Silva bloke who was here years and never played? Moyes said he was a good punt for £700,000 !

In the above comment where I am saying Beattie £5 million gone etc I mean the player not the cash. I am trying to point out that Moyes has spent money in the past and the players he brings in have either been moved on because Moyes drains the life out of them or they are crap when we buy them.

Giving a manger with limited technical ability more money to spend will not solve any problems at all. What will happen is that we will have more expensive players on bigger wages looking just as confused, disheartened and out of place as the players currently at the club.

It's quite obvious now that DM hasn't got the know-how or the beleif to get players playing in the correct manner and every one of our lot looks disinterested in his methods.

Do you have a job Tony?

It’s true. The football dished up by Everton is always so desperate - tackles flying in, hoofball, playing at 100 miles an hour. What happened to the guile and skill we were once renowned for. It is conspicuous by its absence. Moyes looks totally demoralised and disheartened - I think if we’d got Moutinho, we wouldn’t have been far off. Now we’re back to the same old Everton, where after making some painfully slow progress we’re going to backwards again. Oh for a billionaire and Mourinho...

You guys are grat aren’t you. Pick a random Moyes quote and try and read umpteen conspiracy theories into it.

the initial quote says
"But we have done everything we can with what we have available". That doesn’t imply that we aren’t going to contiune doing the same, but that everything being equal there are at least 4 clubs in a different league to us.

Why should we be expected to compete with Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool & Arsenal week in week out when they are clearly better & have more resources to throw at it as well.

For example.

Last season we finished 5th, bought a few players including Fellaini for £15m. Liverpool finished 4th and spent about £50m on Keane, Riera and a couple of others.

We can only afford 1 expensive buy per summer, which eventually will give us a good team, Liverpool, Chelsea & Man Utd, spend more than we do on adding to their squad that is already better.

The only way we could ever make 4th place is if one of the top 4 has a poor season. It happened a few years ago, and nearly last year (ok we had a modest last few games but Liverpool won most of theirs so it wouldn’t have made much difference)

Overall, its not a case of giving up, but giving people the occasional dose of reality to stop and think ’ok maybe we aren’t doing that badly considering the financial gulf between us’

I know the start to the season hasn’t been ideal, but it was only 3 seasons ago we lost 7 out of our 1st 8 games, ended up finishing 11th and followed that with 6th & 5th.

I don’t expect us to finish as low as 11th this season, as we will improve significantly over the next few weeks. But back in those dismall days of consecutive defeats, people were slating Davey, & asking for his removal, but look what happened since. Its only a matter of time before we turn it a round again

Tony Williams, fair point well made about a debate. It’s not just Mr Marsh though, a lot of contributers like to cover their ears and eyes while singing La La La La pretending we are somehow doing well.

Joey Brown: [[ It’s all about belief and momentum if anyone doesn’t believe it, tune into the World Series of Baseball because the Tampa Bay Rays are in it, and if you look at their past season record you’d cry. It’s not all about money! ]]

Good grief. Yeah it’s all about belief, momentum and having the first choice of the best young players for the past ten years. The draft system is why the Rays (and I support them so I know) are in the World Series. They had first (or second or third) pick from the best youth players for the last ten years.

It is absolutely absurd to compare the Prem with US sports because in US sports they attempt to even the playing field. It is all about money, which is precisely why they have put in these measures in an attempt to fight the influence of money. This year it’s worked -- most years it doesn’t.

Plus the Rays fans had to sit through a decade of finishing last. We spend three months in the bottom half of the table and most of you lose your minds. IF we had a draft, are you willing to finish dead last (or let’s say 17th due to relegation) for ten years in order to make a Cup Final?

Perhaps Moyes’ has realised that his close friend and boss has pulled the wool over his eyes and there is no sign of a buyer.

Besides I thought the Kirkby project and Tesco stops the club from changing hands.

All these soundites from various members of the club are getting tiresome and do little to raise the spirits.

What happened to the Moyes’ who said he would speak directly to the fans?

Paul Olsen, in the interests of balance, and being slightly devil’s advocate, I would counter by saying:

Alex Ferguson - numerous league titles, domestic cups, 1 Euro Cup Winners Cup, 2 Champs League.

Arsene Wenger - league titles, domestic cups, runner up in Champs League

Chelsea - two league titles, runner up in Champs League. Domestic cups.

Liverpool - one Champs League, one runner up (which we all enjoyed). Domestic cups.

Moyes hasn’t got close. I hope he does win trophys as Everton manager. But I’m not sticking any money on it.

I have to agree, Moyes has appeared to give up recently, piss poor body language and clearly no fight left in him.

This money excuse is just ridiculous. Look at Arsenal, simply put the club is run better, they buy better players for less money and they get them to play better football, on the deck.

"We bought a player for quite a lot of money to add on to a squad that on paper should be breaking the top four"

I am sorry, our squad is not good enough to be breaking the top4 by a long long long way. If you expect it is, you setting yourself for a fall right at the start of the season.

On paper and probably in reality we have a squad that should see a top half finish.

We have a core first team that if fit should possibly see us top7.

Only the best may be good enough, but seriously, on reflection of the current state of affairs, I think that the best we got.

Bottom line is that a HUGE amount of Evertonians are prepared to accept the crap that Davey boy churns out and also consider it progress. Personally I set my stall out with bigger expectations and expect my Everton to at least try and win games and play with a certain attacking style.

Unfortunately for me Moyes is here for another five years which means my team will instead be forced to shit their pants against a top team and try and stifle their way to a draw with backs against the wall hoofball shite and playing one up front at home against Wigan FFS. The man is inept tactically and has refuses to accept that his 4-5-1 is garbage.

I think we can all predict the team and tactics (or lack of) he will pick at the weekend and I think we all know he won't change it until we concede, and then he will dither for ten minutes getting Saha on whilst Utd score another.

I'm sure Ferguson and co are looking forward to Saturday and they will have Moyes sussed already... just like the rest of us.

Once again we see the David Moyes apologists arguing that he is doing a good job with what he has got and that anyone who questions or criticises him is a heathen, or in the case of Tony Marsh, an anti-Christ.

The argument has turned into a debate about money and the inability of EFC to purchase quality players because of our current financial situation. I?d suggest that whilst money (or the lack of it) has a role to play, this is a simplistic cause to fall back on, as is the comment by Tony Williams to the effect that ?It?s not rocket science, you buy good (expensive) players then generally your team improves, we try and buy one good player a season, as that is all our budget merits.... the other teams around us manage to but 3 or 4?. Unfortunately, Tony, it is akin to rocket science, well behavioural science anyway. The balance of a team and a club needs to be managed by someone with sound skills of self awareness and effective people management capabilities. Money will help but without these managerial attributes - along with technical capabilities such as tactical awareness, etc - a club will go nowhere simply by spending money.

There are numerous examples of demonstrable evidence that negate this theory - Newcastle United, Tottenham Hotspur and Manchester City are three current and very relevant examples.

As some have pointed out we have paid out good money for players in the past who have been dealt a less than respecful hand by the manager. In another thread, one loyal Moyes supporter pointed out that he had lost players like McFadden and Manny Fernandes (amongst others) and that we should not expect him to be able to produce the same quality of football with less talent and less numbers.

In response to this, I?d point out that both of these players wanted away from Everton because of the way in which they were treated by the manager and they have both since commented on this. In the case of McFadden, his dissatisfaction with Mr Moyes was made well known long before he departed for Birmingham City but the manager refused to budge in his assessment of the player and the lad moved on.

Money is not the issue here. The primary issue is the utilisation of the playing resources that you have at your disposal and how you manage relationships with your players. In effect, it is what you do with the player once you?ve brought him into the club or the team.

The bottom line is that our current problems are focused primarily on the manager?s inability to get the best out of our current crop of players. These are the players he recruited to the club, presumably after due consideration of the contributions they could make to us. And it is these players have achieved good results for us in the recent past but now, for some inexplicable reason, appear incapable of producing the goods. I don?t accept that the team has ?overachieved? in the past. Rather, I think something has gone horribly wrong in the dressing room and that serious fractures to both the spirit and cohesiveness of the team and the relationship between the players and the manager have appeared. Since early in 2008, there have been reports of players being unhappy at being consistently played out of position (this was the reason offered by Andrew Johnson for his desire to move to another club) or, worse still, not being given the opportunity to press their playing claims. If I am correct in this assumption then no amount of money ? and certainly, no threat of ?team re-building? - is going to repair this situation. It will solely be down to the people management capabilities of David Moyes and the willingness of his players to trust him ? and, based on his performance over the past couple of years, I don?t believe he has the wherewithal to achieve this. He even appears incapable of motivating himself.

An example of his inability is Mr Moyes? recent press conference where he indulged himself in yet another excuse for our poor performances by raising the issue of the need for re-building the team and bringing in new blood and topped it off by stating that "? we have done everything we can with what [players] we have available." This is, in itself, an open admission of the very things for which he is being criticised.

So, in response to Chris Briddon (?You guys are great aren?t you. Pick a random Moyes quote and try and read umpteen conspiracy theories into it.?), the fact is that David Moyes made this comment when telling the press that he might have to launch a team re-building program and bring in new players to sort out our current malais. This is not some ?conspiracy? theory ? it is Mr Moyes? very own words presented in a clear and unambiguous context.

My expectation is not that we win trophies at whatever cost ? it is that we play attractive, cohesive football that will, as a by-product, win us many games, give us back some pride in our team and, more importantly, make us competitive in a sustainable way.

This can be achieved without spending fortunes on players. In another thread, a fellow blue wrote that because of EFC?s current financial plight,?? it (EFC) can?t attract, nor afford, the best players in the UK, let alone Europe/Worldwide? and whilst this claim may have some validity where marquee players are concerned, I would suggest that there are more pressing reasons for mainstream players not wanting to join us. And most of these have to do with the reputation of our manager as being difficult to deal with, his reputation for not developing the games of players under his tutelage and enabling them to achieve their full potential, despite his claims to the opposite. His propensity for consistently selecting non-performing senior players and his apparent lack of faith in the younger talent around the club is also a telling point insofar as potential recruits are concerned.

Fuccckkennnelll

Whatever happened to the simple game ?

Moyes hasn’t given up, he would have walked if that was the case. The problem is the players are no longer responding to him and he seems lost for ideas on how to change our situation. I have faith that we will climb the table to avoid relegation but not much else this season.

People are pissed with Moyes and the players because they seem to have no attitude or desire anymore and have now forgotten the basics. While we have had injuries and a crap pre season thats no excuse for players not putting in.

If for one would welcome a big shake up, be it a take over or a new manager. The method we have of punching above our weight isn’t sustainable in the long term.

Why complicate a simple issue?

Since football began an old fashioned boot up the arse has worked.
Moyse lacks courage, Yakubu, Arteta and Lescot have all cost us far more than they have given us this season, how long can this go on?
drop the fucken lot of them when your best players keep fucking up they cease to be your players.

SAF dropped Rooney a while back, he?s currently one of the best players in the world as a result.

Laurie Cooper, well reasoned and well said. I agree with this and have said so on another thread regarding Moyes and the lack of inspiration.

Right now, fundementally, Moyes cannot motivate the team. Lets face it too, if a player is playing badly there comes a point at which any manager says.. you need a rest.. go back to the training field and sort your act out.

Moyes hasn’t done that, he may well have had to play certain players out of position or play them when they are out of form because HE believes he has no choice. The constant messing up of players positions damages their confidence in their own ability and the common sense of the manager.

Moyes only has half the basket of tactical skills and half a basket of good premiership players. Th trouble is the halfs don’t match.

Moyes was a defender in his playing days. He understands the needed tactics and the qualities required. He suffers from no risk and no attacking tactics.. when the defence lose their form as a unit therefore we are screwed.

Thats were we are today..

Dave Wilson,
I think its a bit more complicated than that (ie the old "drop the lot ?em theory"). Firstly, we don?t have the depth of squad to do that. Secondly, IMHO, that hard nosed attitude on its own eventually pisses players off especially if they feel that a lot of the problems are outside their control. How can you blame Yak when he gets no service as is a lone man up front? Lescott has not been the best but he might argue that the cover in MF is leaving him exposed. Yobo was dropped in line with this policy - did it make any difference? I do agree that Arteta has been MIA recently.

The problem is that Moyes is not getting the best out of the team. It is not an individual thing, its a team thing. It is up to him & staff to tackle that ? tactically and working with all the players. Kicking them up the arse ain't working ? maybe helping them to play a better system might.

Lee Mosses...... You say "Just because some foreign manager is doing well in a tin pot league doesn?t mean he can come over to England and produce miracles." What, like Arsene Wenger?

Nothing in this life is certain, sometimes you have to take a chance & try something different or alternatively we could stay as we are & continue to stagnate. Standard Liege showed us up for what we are & also took Liverpool to the wire, they did it playing good football & employing sound tactics both of which your hero Davey is completely incapable of. Please stop going on as if he is irreplacable because he isn?t. There are other managers out there given the same resources who could do better.

I’d take that Standard Liege manager. I bet he’d come for £3.5 million a year. He’s developed a good young attacking team on little money. But for poor refereeing and a penalty save, they should have been playing CL football and they out played and out fought us over the 2 legs.

I think a lot has to do with the manager’s philosophy. It’s blatantly obvious Moyes does not have an attack minded philosophy and no amount of money or decent players will change that. That’s what pisses me off when he hides behind this excuse of no money.

Ciaran

Why is it more complicated than that ?
the old shape up or ship out approach works in just about every company, in every industry/sport, everywhere in the world.

I mean the kidglove approach is working a treat at the moment isnt it?

You say our squad is too thin and we cant afford to drop them. I say we are in freefall at the moment and we cant afford not to. They?ve had their chance and let us down.

I don't know what Moyes is scared of - or you for that matter - what's the worst that can happen, we?re losing every week anyway.