Err... Let's not. Plenty of posts on this site explaining why.

The problem that causes this dichotomy between the rest of the football world/media/pundits and the more critical Evertonians is that we see it every day, we see all the mistakes and bad decisions that unfortunately are outweighing the good things Moyes has done. They just see the "overall progress" which is good, of course... but we know it could be so much better if Moyes was simply better at his job, or if he was just as good as he and his admirers claims him to be.

The sad truth is he's not ? he's a confidence trickster in many ways. He got them flying on some good positive confidence last season, only for it to collapse like a pack of cards when a crucial confidence-buster (a la Fiorentina) came along. And the moody sod has been totally unable to muster the troops since that day. That, and that above all, is a damning indictment of his lack credentials as a top manager.

Anyway, it's all moot. He's ours to love or loath for the next FIVE YEARS! Why are we even discussing this still??? It's done. End of!!!

Michael,

You may think that Moyes has gone stale, or has made bad mistakes re the transfer policy etc this summer, but to say that he has done more bad things than good is plainly ridiculous.

Yes we see all of what he does (good and bad), but that therefore applies to what we don’t see of other teams and this great brand of football that many see the rest of the league playing while we’re subjected to wellying it everywhere.

Saturday is another of the "season starts here" games ? just like the Derby game, Blackburn game, Liege games (both of them) and the Newcastle and Arsenal games. I can't remember us ever winning a "season starts here" game, although we must have.

I am not what you would call an optimist, but I can't see us even competing with United in this game; like all Sky teams, they will be ultra protected by the officials, with any 50/50 decision going to them.

Mr Moyes needs a radical re-think of the tactics (or lack of) he has employed so far this season. The gap between the keeper and the back 4, the yawning gap between the back 4 and midfield and the isolation of whatever forward or forwards play needs to be addressed. We must attempt to play from the back through midfield and try to retain some semblance of possesion.

United's strength is the two center backs, especially in the air, and if we keep hitting long balls anywhere near these two, we will be overwhelmed.

I fear the team will consist of Howard-Hibbert-Lescott-Yobo-Jags-Arteta-Osman-Neville-Pienaar-Fellaini-Yakubu. On paper, a strong side... unfortunately, as the saying goes, we do'nt play on paper and I think the tactical approach will be big boot and try to hold out, with the forwards and midfield completely negated by these tactics.

I could be completely wrong and we play an attacking 4-4-2, go for the throat and win, or lose, either way we would go down fighting, trying to play football against the best side in Europe, rather than abject surrender without even firing a shot in anger.

Those of you who choose to support Moyes and state how well we have done under him, as if he is the Premier League?s top manager...

Just need to look at the progress of some other current Premier League managers at the moment with their sides:

Keane, Brown, O?Neill, Redknapp...

He isn't in an exclusive club of managers of 1, who have progressed their clubs.

And the "no money" ritual chant isn't quite as impressive when you look at the amount of money spent by Premier League managers over the last 5 years, trust me.

If EFC had more fans like Seb, we would end up back in the dark ages. If this is what they consider a success story then God help us. Under David Moyes, Everton have become the neutral fans' worst enemy. We are shocking to watch and shocking to support. I can barely summon the energy to open a newspaper these days in case one of Moyes players is in it talking shite and as far as I am concerned last season was the biggest disaster since the Titanic sunk.

Moyes refused to take advantage of the buy Chelsea wanted to give us in the semis and we went out losing both legs. The mighty Oldham Athletic from Div 2 beat us in the FA Cup at Goodison Park and we didn't have a shot on target all game.

Fiorentina made mugs of Moyes and his tactics over in Italy where the tie was basically lost. We were a disgrace to the shirt on the night and the club should of refunded travelling fans. Once we go out at Goodison a week later the whole fabric of the Moyes set up comes unravelled and we end up playing the remainder of the season like pub team. If that's success Seb then stick it mate.

Cardiff City made it to Wembley in the FA Cup with a two bob team and they were a game away from the receivers coming in. The mighty Portsmouth going on to win it... I would say either of those two clubs had a far more successful season than us wouldn't you?

Moyes’ failings are well documented - on this site and elsewhere - but in reply to Jeremy, I would observe that when you compare the resources made available to Moyes (and how and when), comparisons with Keane, O’Neill and Redknapp are contentious. Their backers allow them to shop early and often once the window opens.

Over the last four years, by the time BK has received the OK from the bank, the sheer logistics of negotiating has meant splurging it before the window slams shut, hence one record signing accompanied by a bunch of cheap/free odds, sods and loans.

As for your man Brown, over the forty-odd years I’ve been following Everton, there’ve been lots of teams who’ve come up to the top division and have had a manager who’s convinced them that they are the surprise package. Sheffield Utd did it for a few months in 1970-71. I was at GP for the first game of the 1977-78 season when a guy called Clough brought Nottingham Forest . They whacked us 3-1, and Clough subsequently managed to convince a squad of crocks and rejects that they weren’t relegation fodder to the extent that they walked away with the Championship, then the European Cup for the next two years.

I know, ancient history. Nowadays all everyone outside the Sky4 wants is 41 points or more, 17th or higher. Tactics are great, but what tactics was your man Brown using at the Emirates?

He isn’t "my man".

Seb, if Moyes would be such hot property, and he would have his pick of clubs, why is it then that none of these clubs have ever come knocking on his door? Also, could you let me know these clubs who are " Anxious to sign him " Because I’ve never heard of any intrested parties after him?
One more thing, while all this contract shite was going on, wouldn’t one of these clubs, have made a move then?

Apologies, Jeremy,

I wasn?t implying any partisanship or affiliation on your part. Over here - Dublin - ?your man? or ?y?man? is just a definite article. It?s for emphasis. I think he?s currently doing a Clough 77 job, getting a team to play above themselves. Hence my emphasis on him.

No offence intended.

By the way, Michael K, any chance of an embargo on the phase "End Of!"? It?s not that conducive to debate. And if it doesn?t end debate, it?s kind of redundant.

Opinions are clearly polarised on this and I can’t see any of the people who have posted above being persuaded to change their mind. So debate is there to sway the opinions of those on the fence ..like me.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not anti-Moyes but I can see the obvious failings.

What I’m looking for is improvement. And to my mind, we are in a better position now than when he arrived.

The good season/bad season trend seemed to have halted til this season but this season ain’t over yet so I’m gonna wait til then before making my mind up.

And please don’t reply that ’We could be down by then’ cos I’m not having that at all.

But ... I do believe that there would be plenty of takers for Moyes because of the improvement and general consistency of Everton since his arrival to now.

I do not think any of these takers would be a step-up for DM.

Sebastian, well said, we?d be screwed without Moyes.

Michael Kenrick, you were happy to discuss this when everyone was whining about Moyes, and don?t tell me that it was because the contract was on the table, whether the manager is right for the club is a topic open for discussion all year long, to dismiss it so quickly is rude and ignorant.

It?s been a below average start, not helped by the clear frustration of top transfer targets probably just not wanting to play for Everton, and who can blame them when they?re only gonna get a bunch of whining know-it-alls on their back every week.

You guys need to wake up and smell the roses, as well as a bad start the Premier League got better, Martin O?Neill was always going to do something half decent at Villa, Mark Hughes will probably make good use of the river of cash flowing his way, Chelsea & Man U have improved by means of a change of manager & having an already strong squad with a couple of years of playing together under their belt, the RS have had a good start to the season and Arsenal?s exuberance will always be tough to beat and despite a poor start we?re only 6 points behind 6th place. We were unlucky against Blackburn with a makeshift side, and we should have finished Newcastle off, but we?ve won 2 away from home and got what is starting to look like a decent result at Hull.

After the Manure game there?s 6 very winnable games, I?m sure a few will change their tune when a bouncing fit Cahill helps steers us to 12-15 points from the 6 games.

I hope Moyes signs another 5 year contract when this one?s up, changing managers isn?t gonna do anyone any good, mark my words you?ll only whine about the next one too.

People are not happy with Bill because he gave a massive pay upgrade to a man who for some time now has failed to get his team to perform. We are not a good side to watch and we can no longer even grind out a win.

Moyes has pulled us out of relegation battles and qaulified us for Europe but exactly what success have we achieve under him.

I don’t just look at the negatives but Everton’s Moyes recent track record speaks for itself.

Moyes has been in worse situations than this and has turned it around. I have no reason to believe he won't do so again.

Some people expect too much from Moyes and this Everton team, on paper I don't think we are even that good a team, a mid-table team at best. Individualy only 1 or 2 players could break into a top 4 side. Moyes has worked wonders to get the best out of his players and over-achieve finishing in 7th, 6th, 5th and 4th. I believe our other finishes 17th and 11th are better representitives of our true level of quality.

For Michael to say ?the moody sod has been totally unable to muster the troops since that day. That, and that above all, is a damning indictment of his lack credentials as a top manager? i think this shows a lack of understanding. To get 100% of his players 100% of the time must be draining, any normal human being could not sustain this relentless motivation of his mostly average players consistantly season after season.

Why do you think Man U don't win the league every season? Ferguson has the best players but he cannot always get the best out of them no matter how good a motivator and man manager because he is human and there are too many variables. Not everything will always go for him, not every player he signs will turn out to be the signing of the season.

Get off Moyes back an give him the backing he deserves and has earned over the past 6 years, we may have to take a step backwards this season to take 2 steps forward like when we finished 17th then 4th the following season, the young players need to adjust and settle in and we need a good replacement for Carsley, give Rodwell a season to find his feet it will all be worth it in the long run.

Ian, I just curious as to what stage it would be appropriate to get on Moyes back. Do we wait until we are in a relegation battle at the end of the season.

I don’t believe we will be fighting relegation this season but we have been shocking for some time now. You are right in that its is hard to get 100% out of players 100% of the time but as well paid pros we should always expect some level of consistency. Some of our players are not even playing at 50%. I just want some football basics and effort to be shown.

Simon Walker, I don?t usually respond to nonsense such as that you?ve presented in your attack on Michael Kenrick and other Evertonians, but for you I?ll make an exception, simply because of the rude and arrogant tenor of your post and the simplistic rationalisations you have presented, all in order the protect the integrity, and presumably, the competence of your hero David Moyes.

Given the tenor of your post and the lack of valid supporting data, your comment to Michael that ?whether the manager is right for the club is a topic open for discussion all year long, to dismiss it so quickly is rude and ignorant.? is rather ironic

In my view assigning your own views a level of currency, validity and morality above those of others ? as you have done in your post, Simon - is also ?rude and arrogant? as well as being utterly puerile and revealing your inability to deal maturely with criticisms of your hero. And lashing out with nonsensical statements like ?We were unlucky against Blackburn with a makeshift side, and we should have finished Newcastle off, but we?ve won 2 away from home and got what is starting to look like a decent result at Hull?. Whilst your comment about Hull could be argued to have some currency, the others are totally indefensible other than in an purely emotive way. By any logical and rational measure of effective and committed football (including tactical analysis), we were not unlucky against Blackburn, we played poorly and were deservedly beaten. And the same applies against Newcastle, Liverpool, Portsmouth, etc, etc.

Your comment ?It?s been a below average start, not helped by the clear frustration of top transfer targets probably just not wanting to play for Everton? is self evident. Of course, you then go on to blame the reason for this on anyone who doesn?t support your idol and lambast them with dummy spitting venom by calling them ?whining know-it-alls?. Have you ever considered that ?transfer targets? you refer to actually know what is happening at Everton with players being played out of position, creativity being stultified by mind numbing and confidence destroying tactics that work against the strengths of players, and the lack of flexibility and tactical nous being constantly demonstrated by the manager? And do you think that these ?transfer targets? are so insular that they don?t hear (or read) the messages abounding in British football circles about your idol being inflexible, stubborn and difficult to deal with? To rationalise the inability of David Moyes to attract quality new players and blame this on passionate Everton fans is clearly simplistic and misinformed.

Your comment (in relation to those transfer targets who don?t join because of the fans) ?and who can blame them when they?re only gonna get a bunch of whining know-it-alls on their back every week.? leads me to ask the question ?Why are those of us whose views differ from yours a bunch of whining know-it-alls? Because our views differ from yours? Or because you?ve assigned yourself the role of a superior football intellect (meaning the rest of us, including those with playing/coaching/administrative experience and those who have followed Everton for many years and are passionate about the club, are simply a bunch of clueless buffoons as distinct from dyed-in-the wool Evertonians who believe we deserve better than the dross Mr Moyes is currently serving up to us and has been serving up for some time now?

Well, pardon us all for breathing, Simon, perhaps we?d better sit back and let you run the show (Michael K ? perhaps this might give you more time for gardening etc). I won?t offend you by trying to talk sense to you about your hero?s apparent failings - which are based on - and evidenced by - our performances since April this year) but would suggest that you follow your own advice and ?wake up and smell the roses, as well as a bad start? and recognise that the old ?unlucky? catch cry doesn?t wash anymore, especially when the ?unlucky? streak has extended well beyond the games you cited and has been with us effectively since the second Fiorentina game last term?

We have been playing the same tactics with virtually the same players over that period and your hero has not changed his tactics or approach one iota - and that is not bad luck, it?s bad management and all Evertonians want is for Mr Moyes to sort it out and quickly. Unfortunately, based on recent statements made by him in a press conference, he clearly feels this is beyond him. I refer to his statement that he has achieved as much as he can with the current squad.

And if that makes me one of your ?whining know-it-alls? then so be it. I?d rather be that than an ostrich who hides his head in the sand so he can deny the unpleasant reality unfolding before his (and every other Evertonian?s) eyes.

I agree with Simon Walker and other similar comments on here (not really about MK as I’m sure it’s mainly negative people who post articles on here--I imagine they are short sighted).

I’m not going to sound the bugles regarding the old Moyes is my hero chestnuts but heres a few saliant points;

1-- I know for a fact that all aspects of the Moutinho deal were done, until at the 11th hour sporting demanded the entire fee up front. With M’Bia it was basically the same although I dont know why that fell through.

2-- Once these 2 top targets suddenly fell off the radar he moved on Fellaini -- a top young prospect who he had enquired about before.

3-- Moyes has never been given the money to sign players before the window opens (Spurs/Modric--Chelsea/Bosingwa) so losing out on Obinna / Moutinho / M’bia / Ramsey / Canizares after holding negotiations only for last minute surprises can hardly be his fault.

4-- As we have signed all these players at the last minute it will take time for them all to bed in. I have moved between countries a great deal and sometimes its easy and others difficult (japan-easy / Singapore-difficult) for both cutlture and work reasons. The premier league is new to all our signings other than Saha and Nash.

5-- It seems as though all the cretins creep out of the woodwork spouting doom and gloom--this is not conducive to success in any possible way. I have rarely known a negative person to be successful in life, so try to keep a half full Hennessy (who I want us to sign) next you when you post.

No need for a thesis Laurie, What?s your point?

Mark,

You say - "this is not conducive to success in any possible way. I have rarely known a negative person to be successful in life,"

Now I really am worried about our future under DM.

The man simply doesn?t learn from his mistakes - and Michael is spot on - those in the media who constantly praise him don?t have to put up with the ineptitude week-in, week-out...

To suggest he would?ve walked into the Spurs job is absolute cack.

From another thread the legend Tony Marsh says Fellaini and Baines are crap.

That pretty much sums some people up on here.

Keith-- When Moyes had a full side last year we played some great stuff...

Both comments mean you guys should start drinking at lunch...

Mark; you refer to ?all these players we have signed at the last minute? and how they will need time to settle in. The reality is that there was only ONE real signing ? Fellaini ? as the others were loans or long-term crocks!

Whoever was to blame, the close season was a total bloody disaster and blowing the entire budget on ?a promising youngster? was not the work of a wise man. Over the past six months, Moyes has shown no more optimism than the average Toffeeweb poster ? and far less enthusiasm for his task. The spat over his contract was the ideal opportunity to bring in a new broom ? by god we need one!

Moyes will probably play one up front and we will get beat easily again by a top team. Best thing for Everton would be for Moyes to resign and bring in a new broom, but he won't go, we will continue to lose and if Cahill gets a long term injury we will probably do relegation this season. Wake up and smell the coffee you Moyes lovers, this is as bad as Kendall's 3rd spell and, like when Royle left, the manager has lost the dressing room ? you NEVER win it back.

Russel

We have to look at the bigger picture. If we were to look at a table of Everton's finishes since Moyes took charge you will see a positive trend, yes there have been dips but for the most part it goes up.

I look at it from the point of view that we did the right thing when we finshed 17th we held firm and finished 4th the nxt time, or we could panic like others on this site, like Spurs, get rid and bring in someone like Ramos and then sink further.

It's unlikely we will get a better relativley young manager to take on the Everton job. As you say, you doubt Everton will be relegated, as do I, so don't push the panic button until Christmas and we're in the bottom 3.

Ian
Do you think that, after so long in charge, to sack Moyes is a panic measure? I think it is just common sense given his recent uninspiring comments and lack of form ? 17 points from 17 games in the Premier League.

It?s also "recognised throughout the game" that the PL is the best there is but I, for one, don?t accept that. As for DM, he?s run his course and we should have got rid ? watching "his" team is worse than sitting between Gordon Brown and David Cameron at a Dido concert.

Trevor: Would you say that Castillo/Jacobsen and Saha are not quality players?

Castillo looks like he will be a good player for us once he finds his feet.

Jacobsen and Saha have had injury problems over the lastuple of years but before then they were both good bets to play for their international teams.

I have no doubt that Fellaini will be a class act.

If their clubs had not pulled the plug at the 11th hour we would have had Moutinho and Mbia, sadly they did.

Lets see..

Castillo, Jacobsen and Saha... are they quality players.

Castillo, a defensive midfielder who doesn?t know how to close down. I'd say Moyes did the research for that one on You Tube... and then again Neville gets on ahead of him; quality, NO.

Saha, a typical Moyes signing... hoping he does a lazarus and plays a few matches while no doubt capitulating to the wishes of Alex Ferguson... quality on his day, will he have his day? God knows.

Jacobsen, another lazarus signing and, lo and behold, he?s struck down in biblical proportions. Is he quality... not by any stretch.

And Moutinho?s and M?Bia's clubs never pulled the plug at the 11th hour... M?Bia was told he wasn't going anywhere and we bid a derogatory sum for Moutinho (less than for Fellaini by all accounts).

ps: I?ve seen a bit of M?bia anyway... and he?s nothing special either.

Nigel

I think it would be a panic measure to sack Moyes only half a dozen games into the season, considering his past record, especially if we dont have a quality replacement lined up.

I wouldnt want Everton to be a team that chops and changes managers willy nilly having no stability or direction, its not good for any one. Better the devil you know is what i say.

Your just grasping at straws and living in dream land if you think we can bring in another manager to win the league or even achieve as much as Moyes with the same kind of money Moyes has had to spend.

Only the top 4 are likley to have sustained consistancy because of the sustained champions league money instalments, they will just grow bigger and bigger and only a billionaire can change that on a consistant basis. Its just common sense, the game has been ruined.

Nigel Seddon: With regard to losing the dressing room, and never getting it back, all the indications were that Moyes had ’lost the dressing room’ at the end of the 2003-4 season. Fortunately he seemed to have found it again sometime in September 2004.

Peter Howard: Isn’t being at a Dido concert bad enough? I don’t see how sitting between that pair could make it any worse.

Ciar McGlone (it’s in part chinese so i hope its your name).


You have abslutely no clue about what you have written.

1--Your players assessment is absolutely dreadful--actually--comical.

2--Why are you writing about Moutinho and Mbias clubs? You have no idea what happened there, I have written the facts and yet you disagree--sadly I know that you are wrong.

3--We offered more for Moutinho than Fellaini.

4-- M’Bia is rumoured to be being watched by some top clubs. Your comment about him being nothing special pretty much sums up your assessment of the players (above mentioned).

Just got back from abroad,When i read on the Redshite Echo the editor endorsing Bullshitter Bill as being the owner to lead EVERTON into the new era of football ownership and telling Evertonians to stop moaning and just accept that he is the best man for our health and the clubs health. I wonder if you JOHN TOMPSON would be saying the same things if your club had the same kind of guy running your fucking club, I have noticed you have been kicking up murder over the 2 yanks running your club. I would urge all EVERTONIANS never to buy the ECHO the same way we stood side by side with them when they boycotted the SUN and still do. I have persauded 157 people never to buy that paper all EVERTONIANS.They are so biased in there coverage in our city its unbeleivable.And to you JOHN TOMPSON your a puppet of other people.

Ian Dowie has lost his job at QPR. He was sacked by Flavio Briatore. His record?

Appointed May 2008; 15 games played; ninth in the Championship table; seven points off automatic promotion. Last 16 of the Carling Cup, where they face a trip to Manchester United after knocking out Aston Villa in the third round.

I do not condone the sacking of Dowie in any way but I must ask a question. How can any manager with Moyes?s record so far this season be rewarded with a new 5-year contract by any chairman? Unless that chairman is soft and not ruthless enough to be in charge of a Premier League football club.