It was bad enough when 5th was the new 1st. But now we are expected to lower our expectations to 8th!!! Let's get rid of Nil satis nisi optimum because if 8th is our aim our motto is meaningless.

Pravdodd — you are and will always be a company man to the bitter end.

Doddy, well written article but that’s where it ends. I am surprised you get your head out of Bill’s arse long enough to write it though.

It was also good to hear you admit that the Board were lying all summer. However, If finshing 8th and moving to Kirkby will attract the sort of investors we need, then I’ll give up supporting EFC now.

Can I also ask you what we would have done if we hadn't sold Lescott for £24 million?

And who we’re going to sell this time next year???

No, Richard, 8th is not great-1st is great, 2nd is very good, 3rd is good, 4th is satisfactory and 5th is ok.... This is Everton we are talking about, 9 times champions of the country!!

Low expectations lead to low performance. My personal expectations are to try and be the best at what I do and my club's expectations are very clearly described on the badge.

There are a couple of old sayings about expectations that I like very much. The first is that "I may be laying in the gutter but I am looking at the stars" and my favourite is "May a man's reach always exceed his grasp." Our clubs reach should always exceed it’s grasp-that means instead of 8th (or 5th) we should be aspiring to 1st-then winning the Champions League.

We should be aspiring to transforming Goodison into a stadium like the Emirates or Old Trafford — not settling for a Legoland shed. Richard, lift your head up and raise your aim — you know... like back in the day when we would never settle for 8th place.

"Promises from everyone — even elder statesman Sir Philip Carter — that transfer action would occur sooner rather than later"

Carter didn’t actually promise anything. He said that the transfer window was a typically exciting time but his words were spun by the local media to make it sound as though he had inside knowledge of Moyes’s shopping list.

And 8th would not be great, Richard, it would be a huge step backwards, not least because it would mean we’d miss out on Europe. I’m baffled how that can be described as "great", I really am.

For somebody known for their positivity, Richard, I feel you are being a little negative. I always thought of you being the optimist who believed with Moyes at the helm anything was possible.

I agree there comes a time realism but is it not realistic to believe we can still break the top 4? After all the team we have now is much stronger than the team we had that last finished 4th.

Man U have gone backward with the loss of Ronaldo and Tevez but they are still light years ahead of us.

Liverpool have took a big step back with the loss of Alonso but i still feel they are a class above just because of that man Gerrard.

I feel Chelsea have stayed the same and they are my favourites for the title.

Arsenal have matured and most of their injured players from last season have returned although they have lost perhaps their best striker and defender, but they have enough to cope without them.

Although I haven't seen much of our new signings I trust in Moyes and believe we have taken one step back by selling Lescott but two steps forward with our new signings, and the continued development of Rodwell and Goslling the squad should now be able to cope in all competitions for the entire season.

Villa have lost 2 of their best player in Barry and Laursen so I believe they have stood still and perhaps gone backwards.

Spurs and City have made lots of expensive signings with big reputations, but how many times have we seen this in the past and it hasn't paid off? It all looks rosey for them now with their winning streaks against lower league opposition, but I'm willing to bet that when a few results go against them against the bigger sides and some of the star signings cant even get a place on the bench the tide will turn and we will perhaps see them having loosing streaks similar to that of Villa and Hull at the end of last season and Spurs at the start of last season.

I'm still confident of breaking the top 4 and would be unhappy if we finished below 5th, unless we won a trophy or two. Yakubu will soon return and Arteta and Anichebe not long after that and by Christmas Jags should be back for the busy festive schedule.

Following on from Ray’s expectation sayings, can I offer: "Aim for the stars and you’ll hit a cabbage"

Richard were you perhaps meaning that we may finish 8th as teams like Man City, Spurs et al have spent alot more than us this summer? Not that we should be happy about it or that it would be a ’great’ finishing position?

That's the reason why BK can get away with all the bullshit etc, Doddy, when we have fans like you who would find 8th place acceptable.

We can finish fifth and even better than that and with City who have the ’financial muscle’ to compete with the Sky 4 and Villa and Spurs both on a par with ourselves I believe their could be some major financial casulities from the Sky 4 this this season which is why none of them have being prepard to splash the cash they have available themselves.

Well well Richard, I refer to my post in August "is the fat lady singing" and my reference to what I felt could be a route map for the future direction of our club. You champion all of the Kenwright apologists who accept what could be our steady decline down the league table and stay silent as you confirm "in our present circumstances I truly believe that a finishing position of eighth would be a real achievement and accepted by all".

Well if that is the case we can already kiss European football goodbye and the lost revenue for a lower finish. What will become acceptable next season 10th, 12th.

Ian, you ask "is it not realistic to be believe that we can still break the top 4" then go on to confirm the very reasons why we won’t. Also I wouldn’t write off our competitors for 5th place as easily as you do. They may be beating lower league opposition but that is something that we are currently struggling to do. Don’t forget to take the fact that they haven’t got the European games to contend with either so they are fully focussed on breaking into the top 4 places.

I can’t quite understand why you are so confident that we can break the top 4, you say that Chelsea are your title favourites, Manure and the Shite are a class above us so that only leaves the Arse and they have just twatted us in our own backyard. We will have performed miracles mate if we finish in the same position as the last two seasons.

This is going to be a funny season. I can feel it. I am convinced that teh top 4 this season will not be the Sky 4. As to who will break in, that’s the big question.

City must be favourites, for obvious reasons. I don’t see Spurs lasting, but not so sure as I’d bet on it. As for Villa, same old one dimensional game for me.

This leads me to deduce that we will finish somewhere between 3rd and 8th. I’d begrudgingly take 8th if we won the FA and/or Europa Cup. But I actually think we’ll be nearer 3rd than 8th.

To repeat my mantra one last time,if we are in contention around Xmas time then I fancy us to kick on. We usually do.

Lyndon - Glad you brought up Carter-gate again. That non-article has to be the most ridiculous, content-free, misleading crock of shite I have ever read. I was cringing whilst reading it. The headline bore no resemblance to the actual content, which itself bore no resemblance to anything. Was it Dominic King? Tosser, whoever it was.

Richard (Keneth) Dodd eigth would be good not a chance !!!. Only one team has actually strengthened to any Great extent some are weaker others have stayed as much the same.


Of those who finished above or around us.

Manchester United I actually think they have gone backwards, they have lost Ronaldo who was the only star in what is now an just above average midfield. The midfield is reliant players ending their careers in Scholes and Giggs or players such as Nani and Anderson who will need to step up more than one gear. Valencia and Owen do not in any way replace Ronaldo and Tevez. In addition there are other areas that are deficient in relation to them wining the title again I believe that they have actually started to go backwards after a long period at the top.

Liverpool last season was the chance for them I am just glad they did not take it; they have lost Alonso who was Liverpool’s Makelele. They have one striker in Torres’s who although is no doubt top draw he cannot and will not be able to carry them in 4 competitions. Speaking to honest supporters of the lovable reds not many if in fact any believe they are better prepared this season and are questioning how long the fat controller will be at the helm.

Chelsea are the only team who finished above us who have actually strengthened in that they have kept the same squad as the players leaving were not even fringe as well as adding quality in Zhircov. With the recent news I would expect a galvanized Chelsea and they are my favorites for the title.

Arsenal are a strange on they have lost Adebayor and Toure and only bought one player of note in Vermaelen Eduardo was missing most of last and Arshavin is a gem. They will play beautiful football one day and be pushed off the park the next I believe they will stay around the same as last season and not go backwards.

So of those who finished above us will we be able to close the points gap that was 27 to United and 9 to Arsenal I would be surprised if we did but it would not be impossible to knock one of the 4 out.

So what of those just below us Villa, Flam, Spurs and Man City.

Villa have lost two of their most influential players in Barry and Laurson along with Zac Knight and Stuart Taylor replacing Larson with Dunne, Collins Baye and Warnock. I will stick with our defence and cover even with Hibbert. Barry has been replaced by Downing would a backward step and other than this have bought Delph who may or may not turn out to be a good player rather than a prospect. I feel they have stayed the same at the best and if pushed believe they have also gone backwards.

Fulham last years over achievers not us but them we achieved what we expected al beit with a major part of our squad injured. They have sold a defender in Hunt and a couple of Midfielders. These have been replaced by Damian Duff who I would suggest no-one would want at our club as we already have much better. I don’t see them doing as well as last year and certainly would not expect them to improve enough to overtake ourselves.

We all know about the City experiment and if this was Champ manager or such like they would eventually storm away with all cups possible but it is not. I can see them being better and they may close the 13 point gap however I still believe that we can match them over the season dependant on what they do in January.

Other than this who else will threaten to overtake us Sunderland who were 27 points behind us have been the big spenders down there. Looking at the list of players they have brought in for their first team would you want any of them 1 for 1 for a player in ours? Taylor instead of Distin, Jags etc, Bent instead of Yakubu Saha especially for 10 million. They would be squad players at most at our club.

So Richard would I be satisfied with eighth no I would not 4th or above would be great 5th would be average 6th would be disappointing anything less and I would be totally pissed off.

Oh I forgot and what about Spurs as usual they will flatter to deceive have they really strengthened that much ??? Crouch for Bent, Kranjca for Zokora, Naughton for Chimbonda and Bassong for any one of three injured Centre backs. No not worried about them.

Nil satis nisi optimum
........to be replaced by.........
duodeviginti est bonus satis?
DEBS sounds a lot more tastier than NSNO, eh?

Come on fella, 8th will never be great. I see the logic in suggesting that maybe 8th is what we’ll achieve, but after previous seasons you can’t expect the fans to be happy with that.

I grow weary of the same people spouting the same negative crap on this site, but I will not be happy with 8th in the same way that I don’t over react to the slightest set back.

You appear to stand alone as the polar opposite to Mr Marsh and others and whilst they are allowed to spill their reactionary tantrums on this site then your sickly sweet views on all things Everton should also be allowed. I’ll always read them (like a lamb to the slaughter) as they often spark some good debate. What irks me more is when I do try to avoid the usual "Bullshit/Black Bill" and Osman Hibbert crap, the same posts appear from the same people hijacking the thread so that it ends up back on their agenda and miles from the original mailbag item/article.

Saying that, I would never expect those fans, however negative they may be, to lower their expectations to 8th.

COYB!

Richard, ask yourself one question. Would Moyes settle for 8th place ? Not on your life ! He wants to challenge the ’big 4’, he wants some European glory, and he wants some silverware. Yes, Man City and Spurs have got more big names than us but what does that really mean?

At this point last season 8th really did seem like the best we could expect, but with the help of some teamwork and great attitude we made 5th and a Wembley final. With a stronger squad this season and (let’s hope) better luck with injuries, anything less than a European place and a strong cup run would be a real disappointment to Moyes — and should be to us as well.

8th place would not be the end of the world, and may even represent some kind of ’overachievement’ given our resources, but our expectations and aims are higher than this, and rightly so.

Nick, I think 8th place would be the end of the world and if 8th place is viewed as some kind of over achievement then as a club we have gone backwards and the decline has started. It could be 10th next season and will we then be saying as our crumb of comfort, that at least we are in the top half. Where next?

Doddy, you ignored blatant bullshitisms from your beloved’s new CEO, care to answer this?

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/elstone-keen-to-avoid-rush.html

Who employs the CEO and sanctions what he says and especially what is published as his word on Pravda? Black Bill strikes again.

As regards the references to "Nil Satis Nisi Optimum", above, I’d say that Everton would be more realistic if that was amended to "S N A F U" !!

We all know we will have to settle for a lower finish this year, Painful I know, but how can the club continue to defy gravity with the full weight of Kenwright pulling us down?

There were signs last season — before the injuries — that we were beginning to play more attractive football, let's hope we can at least continue to make progress on this front.

I fear for Evertonians this year, not that I think we’ll struggle near the bottom, but because Moyes has once again chosen reliability over flair. I Truly believe many Evertonians are going to call it a Doris if Kirkby gets the nod, how tragic if we were to spend our remaining days as representatives of this great city grinding out odd-goal victories against the Wigans of this world?

If someone offered me a Cup and a dozen really stylish performances from the boys this season, I’d snatch their hand off, right now.

I have held my water on transfers until now but as usual Doddy has rattled my cage!

I don’t think that 8th would be great at all but, given what Moyes has brought in, I do think it is reasonable expectation. Once again, our manager has failed to address the lack of creativity in midfield and with so much doubt about when — and in what condition — Arteta will return it may prove that our super optimist is, well, being just that! What’s more, I bet Tony Marsh agrees with that statement!

I don’t need to repeat what has been said by the likes of Ian and Tony.. I just want to say I still don’t understand why people think Villa did well in the market..??!?? they have lost their leader and best defender!! They didn’t spend more than they got in.... and neither did Spurs... yes they bought a lot.. but half of them were flippin ex Portsmouth players... they sold Bent and Zakora which paid for this.. the only really intersting purchase for them was Bassong.. they have started well so everyone thinks they are now awesome! They lost Berbatov last year.. replaced by Crouch FFS! City and Sunderland for me are the only 2 teams that have dramatically improved personnel....

I see Liverpool struggling this year and this could be the year they slip to 5th or even 6th! If we finish lower than 6th we have not played to our potential.... 8th would be terrible! If the likes of Arteta, Jaga, Yak, Saha, Fellaini... man the list goes on.. play to their full potential.. we can nick 4th... we really could !!!! We really need Micky back!

Doddy ,you might be happy with mid-table... the rest of us demand better!

Alan [Kirwin], it was David Prentice of all people! Disappointed doesn’t cover it...

I hope you only used the word ’great’ because it rhymes with ’eight’ Richard.

Eighth might be realistic, it might even be acceptable, but I don’t think even fifth would be ’great’ having done it for two years running already.

Man City are obviously a big factor from the last two seasons, and Spurs and Villa will be in and around the top 8 again (to be honest, we’re beginning to form a ’next four’ if you look at recent league tables) so anything lower than eighth will be massively disappointing.

However, with neither Spurs, Man City or Villa playing ’Europa League’ (I still struggle to call it that) football, there is now an additional factor. I think part of this debate could centre around how much doing well in three cups would make up for a worse league position. Imagine we came 17th and win all three cups. Is that any good? What if we come 7th and get to three semi finals, is that any good? 5th and a Cup Final, any good?! You get my point.

So where do people stand- could we have a great season, coming eighth, if we did well enough in the cups?

Richard, you make it sound like it’s all part of the masterplan, like the board at Everton actually know what they’re doing and like the whole summer panned out the exact way they wanted it to.

The reality is this Everton board of Kenwright and Carter are being hung by their bollocks by Green and Earle. The reality is they are flying by the seats of their pants and do not know what the fuck is round the corner. This summer has shown Kenwright and Carter couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. Your suggestion that they knew exactly what they were doing all along is just laughable.

Oh god Doddy, that was awful and painful to read, to settle for 8th as a realistic acheivement is absolutely ridiculous and I think you’re the only one who would be happy for 8th.

With the teams, I can only see City finishing above us, because they have a lot of world class players. Spurs may do, but I can’t see it, they will falter eventually. What makes you think Villa would finish above us? Everton are known for defying the odds and proving everyone wrong, we have to aim for 4th no question. I don’t think we’ll get it however, and probably will finish 6th, but we have to aim for 4th, and believe we can get it. Thank god Doddy isn’t the manager.

Shoot for the moon. If you miss, you’ll end up amongst the stars.

Aiming for 8th is as bad as Tony Marsh and his relegation battle as far as I’m concerned. Our target has to be to break the top 4, anything less is unacceptable. Whether we will achieve it is open to debate, but at this stage of the season you either aim high or give up.

NSNO, is an attitude, I expect the best from the players we have, and if they deliver we can break the top 4, as pointed out earlier, we did it before with a much weaker team than the one we have now. So don’t give the team a way out by saying 8th would be great, breaking the top 4 would be great, winning the league this season would be exceptional, but I expect DM to deliver on that one within the next five years.

Mark my words: we’ll finish 5th or 6th. Villa isn’t as good as last year and they had luck in quite some games back then. Spurs won’t last and I’’m seriously doubting City will. One of those last two teams might keep it together and challenge us (and the Sky 4) to the end but not two or three teams. No way.

We seem to have, if anything, a more balanced squad. We traded a defender for a midfielder in my opinion (Jacobsen, Nuno and Lescott for Distin, Heitinga and Bily, all other players we let go or got in aren’t really in the squad) and we could use that. I also dare to say that we traded some squad players for players who are really pushing for a first team spot. We didn’t improve big time, but I honestly think we made a small, small step forward. Like we did the years before.

I’m not saying I’m as happy as can be but I see no reason why we should do less than last year. But we seem to have this discussion year in year out, Man City has recently taken over the Newcastle Utd spot in being the big summer spender on ambigious stars, that’s all.

100% agree with you Eric. When you look at the games played by Valente and Jacobsen I think we will definitely see more action and better value from the new boys.

Surely this means we have a stronger squad and, with the versatility of Heitinga, a more flexible one too.

So let’s give up now shall we? Are we really that spineless?

I want to see us going into every game with fight and passion and the determination to succeed. If, at the end of the season, players, manager, fans and board can all look back and say they did everything that could be done.... then I’ll be happy. That is what sport is all about, isn’t it. Not comparing vital statistics before the fight, deciding your chances are poor, throwing in the towel and heading off down the pub.

On a seperate tack.... Too many people seem to be ignoring that success is usually built over years not weeks. With very rare exceptions.

Under Moyes, this club has been heading in the right direction for a long time and I believe it will continue to do so. Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal all have the problem that their long term business models depend on being in the Champs League every year... With the rise of City, they are re-evaluating this assumption and having to adjust accordingly. This means they will not be able to outspend us to quite the extent they have in the past... which means we should be able to further close the gap... but it will take time.

Doddy, I have read some of the shite you have posted in the past. But this one really does take the piss.

After another close season of lies and false hopes, you are now advocating that we accept a poor league placing. And what's more, we should be grateful for it!!!

I have to say, Richard, eighth can not be classed as great but do agree with lots of your post; it is gonna be a real struggle to finish in the top 6 this season — especially missing 3 key players right through the spine of the team at the start of the season.

Let's get one thing straight — there is no way we woulda finished 5th last year if we weren't knocked out the first rounds of the Uefa and Carling Cups. So finding the balance this year in prioritising the Prem and hopefully 3 successful cup runs is gonna be tough. So lets hope our great manager is up to it and maybe 8th and Carling Cup winners could be classed as a great season!

Surrup Doddy, you tit.

How can we consider slipping three places an achievement. Only one team that was in the group challenging us has inproved their squad and that is Citteh.

Our first eleven is arguably stronger with the Dutch lad possibly playing right back and with Arteta and Jags to return and now we have a good backup for the centre of defence (Yobo)

You are as bad as Marsh with both your ridiculous posts at the opposite ends of the spectrum

Back to the thread. I can’t believe the original guy is chatting about 8th as an achievement. Villa have lost their best players, and made a couple of reasonable signings and Spurs have continued with the sign whoever is available policy. Nobody that either team has signed is someone that I would just love to be at Everton. Assuming injuries don’t plague the squad, Everton match Villa and Spurs any day of the week. We’re also considerably better than all those clubs that finished below us last season, with one exception, Man City.

As far as I can see, Everton, along with City, Villa and Spurs can all feel as though they have a decent chance at fifth.

So please, don’t claim that we’re achieving something by finishing below teams that we are as good as. That is really throwing the towel in the ring.

Nil Satis Nisi Mediocritas
Richard, as an Evertonian you are the equivalent of a blow-up doll shagger — You have no idea.

Oh Doddy what a wonderful post.

Looks like I was wrong & you were right about your BIG chum Billyboy.

There’s me thinking we’d never amount to anything under his bankrupt, deceitful regime but looks like I was wrong. I’ll take your word for it Richard (but knowing how accurate you usually are) I reckon you’ll be spot on with this, as ever!

So this is it fella’s ... Our board have stepped up to the plate, and we’ve finally hit the BIG TIME under Kenwright... WE’RE GOING TO CHALLENGE THE BIG 7

C’Mon... All I can say is WOW!!!

Far too pessimistic, Richard. I think 4th/5th is still up for grabs this year by us.

Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal are nailed on top three for me (not sure in which order).

Villa are in a state, haven’t replaced Laursen and Barry, and MON is getting all pissy with the fans about their unhappiness (thank God Moyes doesn’t read ToffeeWeb).

Liverpool (rather obviously) are in serious trouble if Gerrard or Torres are injured. Carragher is past his (I hate to say it) excellent best, and Alonso is a big loss. Could be a serious casualty this year.

Man City and Spurs? Who knows? It’s possible Hughes will gel the mercanaries, but I doubt it. Spurs look good upfront, but I’d much rather have our defence.

Could be wrong, but we really shouldn’t finish below anyone else.

Will be disappointed if we are not at least 6th. 8th would be a failure for me. Qualifying for Europe again is a minimum.

In fairness, Neil, I don't see too many people complaining about Moyes, I think people have sympathy for him in general because of the lack of support he gets from the Board.