The Mail Bag
Cup/League Trade-off?
Comments (22)
I first posted most of this in response to Richard Dodd's 'eighth would be great' article, but it got lost amongst some fairly straightforward Dodd-slagging, where no-one seemed to take account of the three cup competitions we're in. These, let's face it, are our only chances of silverware in the immediate future. I would be interested to know the full range of opinions on it.
Eighth might be realistic, it might even be acceptable, but I don’t think even fifth would be ’great’ having done it for two years running already.
Man City are obviously a big factor from the last two seasons, and Spurs and Villa will be in and around the top 8 again (to be honest, we’re beginning to form a ’next four’ if you look at recent league tables) so anything lower than eighth will be massively disappointing.
However, with neither Spurs, Man City or Villa playing ’Europa League’ (I still struggle to call it that) football, there is now an additional factor. I think part of this debate could centre around how much doing well in three cups would make up for a worse league position. Imagine we came 17th and win all three cups. Is that any good? What if we come 7th and get to three semi-finals, is that any good? 5th and a Cup Final, any good?! You get my point.
So where do people stand could we have a great season, coming eighth, if we did well enough in the cups? Also, are any of the cups more or less important than the others?
Mike Allison, Posted 04/09/2009 at 12:24:17
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Man City have had a decent start, but they have scrapped through the games and can't really be judged until they have actually played someone even half decent!
Arsenal are still the team that should be worried, it's all very well when their little 1 touch, 2 touch is working, but when it isn’t, they buckle!
I hope Liverpool get sucked in with us and make it 5 or 6 teams challenging for 3rd and 4th. As for the cups, a solid run in 2 of the 3 would be nice, lifting 1 would be excellent!
I think with our returning players and improved form we’ll be okay over the length of the season (i.e. relegation isn’t a worry) but the squad is still thin on quality for the league and 3 cup competitions.
However, I would gladly take any trophy providing in addition we qualified for Europe 2010-11.
A team is always measured by its league position and that should be our primary focus. However, good teams are always in it to win it. I see no value whatsoever in finishing so high in the league to qualify for a European competition, and then making that very competition the least of our concerns. What a load of bollocks.
The FA Cup holds cachet all over the place and has a large global audience (albeit way less than years ago). And playing at Wembley is always a measurement of success. But personally I want to see Everton associated with bigger & bigger achievements and not only domestically. So for me I’d love us to win the Europa League. There are good teams in this competition and they will all be trying to win it. The winners also play the CL winners in Monaco for the Super Cup. Big games, bring them on.
Would I swap winning that cup for finishing 4th, or 3rd? Honest answer is don’t know. Last season Martin O’Neill put all his eggs in one basket by playing almost a reserve side in Russia and losing. He gambled that Villa had a realistic chance of CL qualification. His analysis was flawed, nay stupid, for several reasons.
Firstly he upset their rhythm and successful run. Secondly his team had started training in June and playing in fucking July in that competition, and he throws that away. And thirdly because if he had any real sense of perspective he would have known, as I did, that Villa were riding their luck big time and it was going to end. And boy did it end.
Winning the Europa Cup is a further step towards the big time. We may not make the CL for years, but if you listen to people like Tony M and others we should sacrifice all in pursuit of doing so. Nonsense. Nobody knows how things will pan out. Sure it’s more games and we have a thin squad. But I’d rather have them than not. This is what the last 3 months of the season are all about. Big games, regularly.
It is impossible to balance one against the other. The only competition I would go light on is our second-rate domestic cup (SRDC), Milk/Rumbelows/Carling or whatever it is now. Arsenal show how that should be used, as an opportunity for squad players and young stars to show what they can do. How else will they get the chance?
We go for broke, except for the SRDC (squad/youth).
Its also a terrific stimulus for our players. They improve as a team and individually. Heitinga’s comment about looking forward to playing in his third country is significant, but he added that he wanted to play at Goodison, for the fans. The Dutch know about these things, and I think he’s said what we can sometimes take for granted.
Great nights in Europe come closely behind great results against our beloved neighbours in the fond memory stakes. That’s why this competition is important.
I have to disagree with you once again and state that IMO Arsenal may well be challenging Chelsea for the league. They have got rid of the negative influences in the dressing room and I don't think anybody could deny they are the best footballing team in the league.
IMO Liverpool and Utd will be the teams challenging for 3rd and 4th spots with us Spurs and City.
I think what will determine our final league position will be how long we remain in the cup compitetions, AFCON and how many players we bring in in January.
As with all of us it is only a matter of opinion but the only thing that's certain is the NOTHING is certain.
It might be daft in one way in that it's an impossible question to give a precise answer to (ie. "I’ll take 6th in the league, a Carling Cup QF, an FA Cup SF and the Europa League Final please waiter") but I was really just trying to raise the point about priorities and what would constitute a ’good’ or ’successful’ season for different people.
Personally I’m pretty desperate to win something, and at least appear in finals. I’d go for broke in all the cups and hope that a winning momentum keeps us going in the league, but I’d be willing to accept an 8th, say, or maybe even a 10th if the cup performances were good enough, and, as pointed out above, qualify us for Europe next season.
The Cup Final and high league placing just allowed the club to break even and got us not a single new player, whereas the sale of one of our better players was needed to add players which still leaves the squad size smaller than last season. Expect nothing but smoke and mirrors from the club, no matter what the team does on the pitch.
League position is number one priority — but we field teams to go for the other two cups.
O’Neill screwed up big time last year by fooling with the Uefa Cup, and I don’t think Villa have got over it yet.
Don’t know about the Europa Cup though? Do holders automatically qualify or go onto the Champions League?
Premier league
Europa League
Fa Cup
Carling Cup
It’s important we progress every year but IMO 5th or even 6th and a trophy would be progress. As somebody else said winning a cup can get you into europe regardless of league finish but it’s imperative we continue to finish in the top 6 to help attract better players and a buyer (sorry investor)
It would be good to see the likes of Baxter, Wallace, Agard, Duffy, Coleman etc play in the Carling Cup. Even if they lost at least it’s an opportunity for them to get experience and show what they can do.
Jay Harris — I agree about Arsenal. If they get a bit of luck with injuries they could finish 2nd. Their new system doesn’t leave them as exposed and Wenger looks to have done it again with Vermaelan who looks solid at the back.
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1 Posted 04/09/2009 at 16:36:47
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My favourite season in the 90s was not 1996 but 1995.
The way I see it, anything less than qualification for Europe is failure. Better than ’just’ qualifying for Europe is to win a trophy. The whole purpose of the League is to get into Europe so why not win the Cup? As long as we don’t get relegated then I’d finish 17th and win the Cup.