Moyes has been praised for his loyalty to the club, the player, the team-building ethos in this saga, but that seems to be ignoring the stark hypocrisy of his shocking reversal at the end — that if City had come in with a suitably ridiculous offer from the start, they could have had Lescott back in June, and all this pain and anguish (including, presumably, our dreadful start to the season) would have been avoided.

Loyal or ruthless? Moyes may be loyal... he's certainly not ruthless. And that is why he's not a winner, 7½ years and counting...

So Michael, your assertion is that the sole reason David Moyes isn’t a winner is because he’s loyal and not ruthless?

Really?

Are you sure about that?

Because, I would have said that the singlest biggest reason David Moyes hasn’t won a trophy (assuming this is what you mean by "winner") is because he’s been managing Everton for all that time.

Show me another manager who’s been more successful than Moyes in the last 7 years who has spent the same amount of money as he has, having taken over a piss-poor excuse for a club that was heading for relegation. I know it doesn’t all come down to money, but just show me that one manager, in the Premier League, who’s finished higher in the league that 4th, or won a trophy.

Personally, I think Moyes has moved more than enough players on in his time at Everton to show ruthlessness. He’s also demonstrated plenty of loyalty, both to players and the club, but I’ve never seen it as a problem to be honest.

Far too harsh Michael, which other Manager would/could have brought us this far. I know we haven’t won anything but by fuck, we’re making progress.

We often applaud ’team spirit’ as one of our virtues, and pour scorn on ’mercenaries’.

Loyalty good - money bad.

The acid test would come, of course, if ever the petrodollars pour in from a middle eastern owner. Like the ManCity faithful have done so quickly, you learn to chant - money good, money good.

Loyalty? Who needs it when you’ve got loadsamoney?

Moyes is Loyal to the club and its fans. He can also be ruthless. Remeber how he released Jesper Blomquist after he acted up when he was subbed? He dropped Anichebe and VDM when he felt their behaviour was not upto the standards the club embodies

What a bizarre response from Mr Kenrick! No rationale, just a blanket statement that the current manager is ’unsuccessful’ because he isn’t RUTHLESS enough.

I’m staggered.

Yes, I agree that it is an interesting response from Mr Kenrick, but perhaps not being ruthless enough equates with being indecisive? Not being ruthless enough with our current squad members, in the transfer market or in making aggressive tactical substitutions? Not being ruthless enough to build a squad to a size that can adequately compete in all comps? Why is it that two seasons running we find unknown teenagers on the bench of PL games? For a team that has finished in the top 6 the last 3 seasons, to me is mystifying.

I must admit, I find it hard to criticise Moyes for what he has done for the club, but no-one is perfect and perhaps in this respect, Moyes is not ruthless enough.

Andy, good point about Cahill, and one that crossed my mind too. Tim Cahill has been a fantastic servant of the club, no doubt has some good performances left in his bag, but looking at his age and recurring injuries, he may just be past his prime. And this summer was the right time to cash in on the chips, IMHO.

In the present market, Man City/Spurs would have paid not less than £10 - 12 million for his services. I am afraid his value will only go down from here. As you say, a more ruthless manager would have sold him on, and purchased 2 younger versions of Cahill. I again say this, Cahill has been magnificent for the club, but time to maximise the profits.

Sell Cahill? Don't we want a squad of players? Shall Liverpool sell Gerrard as he’s pushing 30 and in a year or two will and not be worth anything like his current transfer value? Whether or not Cahill is as good as he once was or good enough to start in a 4-4-2 is not what we need to be thinking about, it's why some fans want to weaken an already small squad.

Yeah, I remember Everton maximizing profit on a player once before. They sold Alan Ball. The club went nowhere except backwards for nearly 10 years as a result.

You sell players when they have stopped doing the job you want them to do, not when they are at peak monetary value. If maximizing profit is what it is all about, then didn’t the Club do well in getting £28m for Rooney? After all, at the age he was there was no guarantee he was going to make it. His value might have gone down by the time he was 18, like a lot of young footballers.

Very poor, Michael. Like many others I will always remember you rambling on after we finished 4th in the league — complaining that we had a negative goal difference. For some reason you don't like Moyes — which is fair enough — but to suggest he is not a winner is a weak effort in my opinion. I could quite easily label you an armchair Everton supporter but what is the point?

Cahill will hit form when Arteta is back in the squad. The two of them are much better players when they are playing together.

Loyalty is something supporters feel towards their club, & that’s about it in football. Football is a business & all the professionals involved are aware of this, it’s only the supporters who seem to forget.
Andy, your comments regarding Moyes "loyalty" to Osman are curious. Despite carrying an injury which restricted his ability to train between matches Osman willingly played out of position to cover the absence of AVDM, who Moyes was either unwilling or unable to select . As a consequence Osman has joined Hibbert on the Goodison boo-boys current hate-list. I’m not sure how you see this as a sign of loyalty towards Osman on the part of Moyes, especially when you consider that prior to his season-ending injury it was Anichebe who was being selected for that job much of the time.

As regards Cahill, perhaps nobody has approached the club with an attractive offer for him.

What a bizarre thread. Firstly we have Andy questioning Moyes’ ability to be ruthless & backs it up by pointing out how he has dealt with the non-transfer of Cahill. I mean if you think Cahill should be sold, just come out and say it don’t indulge in some sort of mumbo jumbo “manager to blame” innuendo.

Then we have MK’s totally off-thread linkage back to the Lescott transfer. What was the term “the stark hypocrisy of his shocking reversal at the end.” I mean get real, come down from your Toffeeweb Towers, Moyes was about getting the best deal he could get for Everton FC; the rest is smoke & mirrors!

I am often bewildered by what gets posted on here.

First we have a despicable amount of abuse to 2 loyal (but maybe inadequate quality) players in Hibbo and Ossie, then somebody decides to question Yobo, then the Yak now Cahill and the manager.

And when we dare to question the only poor performing element of the club, the board, all the apologists come on deriding the poster.

I know it’s only opinions but we need to look at the good parts of the last few years and I include Cahill and Moyes in that and build on that while getting rid of the negatives i.e. Potless, Clueless chairman with a penchant for telling porkies.

Tim Cahill almost singlehandedly got us to 5th and a Cup Fiinal last year when we had NO strikers; now YOU WANT TO GET RID OF HIM?

I agree that is being ruthless but it’s also totally stupid.

Success in the prem starts with being a TEAM which is why we’ve finished above the superstars of CIty,Spurs and Villa despite being the most underfunded squad in the Prem.

And now you want to disassemble it just to show a ruthless streak...............UNBELIEVABLE

Andy, are you seriously questioning how ruthless Moyes is because he hasn’t cashed in on one of our most effective players?

As for your comments Michael, I'm still scratching my head.

This is the first transfer window that Moyes has had the funds neccesary to buy an international right back and winger. It’s generally regarded that two players who’ll lose their place are Hibbo and Ossie; prior to this, we’ve not had anyone experienced enough as long-term replacements by virtue of the lack of funds — He will be ruthless in dropping those long term stalwarts!
Sell Cahill? I’ve never heared anything so ridiculous, he’s one of the EPL’s highest scoring midfielders and would play in goal if you asked him — Put him on the market and one of the ’Sky 4’ would snap him up!

This post is verging on absurdity. Why are people suddenly tarnishing Cahill with those dreaded words "a great servant". He’s not just some talentless yard dog that plugged a gap for us when we needed it. I bet if you check the shirt sales over the last few years then there is one name that probably gets sold the most.

There’s also a reason why whenever Sky pundits offer their "expert" analysis on Everton they always recognise Cahill as the danger man... and that's because he is. The amount of big goals he’s scored for us in the past. His mere presence on the pitch has changed seasons. Look at last season with his header against Stoke to seal the points.

Perhaps the season before where his return marked with a goal against Larissa started of an amazing run of results. Going further back, his priceless goal against Sunderland that miserable afternoon... his Man of the Match two-goal haul against Charlton. But best of all — what the majority of our players seem to lack — he’s not afraid to smash the ball into the RS net.

He’s better than Fellaini in every department. Put him behind the striker in his natural position and when Arteta comes back watch the goals flow again. "Sell him"... We have a tiny squad... he’s 30, unfortunately injury prone, and undeniably loyal to Everton — how much would anyone pay for him?

Thats just what we need to break that top four... sell along with Arteta the one player who separates us from the rest of the rubbish in this league.

Michael doesn’t half make me laugh.

Any opportunity for him to stick his boot into the one decent thing to happen to Everton for 20 years, i.e David Moyes and he’s all for it. Yet, he never comments on the total lack of investment from our wonderful Chairman, Mr William Kenwright.

Unfortunately. Michael, to be a winner in this day and age requires massive investment. Something our wonderful, lying, 2 faced, fall out with my best friend to keep control of Everton, Chairman will never ever ever provide.

Moyes, IMO, to his credit, has consistently made the team punch above their weight despite having no net spend for the 2nd summer in a row.

You want Moyes to be a winner ,then I would suggest you pray Kenwright puts the club for sale pretty dam quick cos under this our Charleton Chairman we’re going to Kirkby. And when that happens, no manager in the world will be a winner at our club.

Tony Marsh will be posting on here soon! FFS!

Art - surely Davies & VDM were the players Moyes bought to play out wide instead of Osman being press-ganged into the role? I also doubt that Neville was bought so as to not play at right back.

Good god... talk about red rag to a blue bull... or a herd more like.

Look: the fact is that David Moyes is not a winner — in 7½ years he has won nothing... nada... zippo. Don’t blame me... that’s not my doing. He’s simply NOT a winner... FACT! It’s hilarious how such a straight-forward honest statement gets all you lot screaming and yelling... What’s the problem???

Just to be clear: the question was about loyalty and ruthlessnes. No-one said anything about being unsucessful or not making progress... Talk about a Scouse Wedding! Stay on topic, will ya!

I see the Lescott saga as an issue of loyalty, for Moyes as well as for Lescott. Lescott failed the test, as we all know only too well... but I was questioning the element of loyalty, honesty, integrity — call it what you will — in the manager’s frankly bizarre words that wrapped up the whole painfully ridiculous saga. He said, did he not, that if Man City had come in with a big enough wedge from the start, Lescott would have been theirs, no worries. With none of the "not for sale" and "you’re illegally approaching a player under contract" lies we heard for weeks from the manager.

Suzy: "to suggest he is not a winner is a weak effort in my opinion." — a woman scorned... so tell me again how he is a winner? I’m truly puzzled.

Oh wait a minute... I’ve forgotten something. The MLS All-Stars!!! The biggest soccer trophy in the world!!! I stand corrected and truly humbled.

Ryan, I think you’re going a bit off-topic by making this into an anti-Kenwright rant. Kenwright is the sort of person who makes me cringe, he just says things because he likes the sound of them... Boys Pen, bicycle clips, fantastic nonsense... But I think Neil Pearse has finally got to me: we can’t blame him for having no money.

He stepped in to buy Everton from an arguably worse shyster, when no-one else had any interest in buying the club. Why didn’t Grantchester go for it? I think at the time he was under strict instructions not to from his mother... but I digress.

So you are upset because I don’t rail against Kenwright for his lack of investment in the club??? But he’s got NO MONEY!!! And something weird is going on with Earl and Green that can only mean he stays in charge at least until the DK decision. If true, it’s those two and their shennaigans you ought to rail against.

Scream and yell all you want, Kenwright is stuck. He’s probably a reluctant puppet playing out a dismal scenario for his bankrolling yacht-sailing chums. If the sun shines meanwhile out of Moyes’s arse, so be it. I just don’t think he’s the Messianic wonder-worker you all think he is. His cautionary approach ultimately lets him down. Sad, but there it is.

Michael, to suggest that Moyes is "not a winner" is simplistic in the extreme. He may not have won a trophy to date, but he HAS completely reversed the fortunes of this football club. We were a basket case when he took us on, and yet we’ve finished 5th for the last two seasons. In doing so, we have WON an awful lot of games. We may not have won any trophies yet, but if we continue to improve at the rate we have over the last 7.5 years (and the fact that he has invested in young players suggests that we might), then we stand a good chance.

By your logic, the only winners in the premier league would be SAF, the fat spanish waiter, Arsene Wenger, and whoever happens to be coaching Chelski. Does their vastly superior financial might have nothing to do with it at all?

I just don’t think it’s as black and white as you seem to suggest, where you can simply split the world into "winners" and "losers".

Call it simplistic if you must... the fact is he is not a winner. To me, he just doesn’t seem to have the winning mentality; he doesn’t have the ruthlessness needed to win this League, or any of the domestic or European competitions.

We saw it in the Carling Cup semi-final (against Chelsea) and we also saw it again in the FA Cup Final (also against Chelsea... but a different manager); we saw it when we came up against some real European competition in Florence.

I’m, sorry to say this but the way he had the side playing for the Cup Final had defeat written all over it. Even with a fabulous one-goal start, he still could not deliver the win.

With progressively better players, hopefully he will change the way we play. We’ve seen glimpses but it always slips back to the old safety-first basic level (or worse! — Arsenal on Day 1).

But In Moyes We Trust, eh? Cos he’s not going anywhere... and for those idiots who keep asking the same lame question — who else — I’ll give you an answer: the Next Everton Manager!!! I have no idea who that is going to be but he is the one who will eventually get the chance to do things differently, to breathe a breath of new life into the club.

I’d hoped Moyes would get better, learn from his mistakes, make real progress.... but basically, since 4th place in 2004, we’ve plateaued as the best of the rest.

And the smart money says we’ve peaked. I’m not so sure... football is a funny old game and I don’t put any store in such predictions. He might just get the side clicking again, but losing the first two games like that just makes it a massive uphill climb.

I take your point Michael - it does seem that we lack self-belief when playing the top sides. But I wouldn’t condemn David Moyes for that.

When a team is on the rise (as I think we are), it is always going to be a case of two steps forward, one step back. There is undoubtedly a mental ceiling which currently inhibits our ability to beat the best teams. But I think we are closing the gap, and if things go to plan, there will come a day when we suddenly believe that we can beat the best teams. We will play someone like a ManU off the park, with Rodwell dominating the middle, and we will suddenly believe. And when I say "we", I really mean the players. That belief can not be faked. We need to prove it to ourselves, and the only way is through results.

I think the last couple of seasons we have shown real improvement. I disagree that we have plateaued. In both seasons we have gone on long unbeaten runs. Plus, we drew with Liverpool twice at Anfield (once in the league, once in the cup), beat them in the cup at home, drew with ManU at home, and got pipped at old trafford (a Ronaldo penalty), and beat them in the cup, we drew with Arsenal when we really should have beaten them, and drew with Chelsea home and away before going down in the cup final.

Not too many wins, but very commendable. Furthermore, we did it all with a hellish set of injuries to key players.

I think one area Moyes has been very ruthless in his time at the club is in playing a results (read percentages) based style of football. It hasn’t always been pretty, but he has worked within the limitations of our players, and it has delivered results.

However, I think it’s also fair to say that we have started to play better football over the last couple of years, especially down the left. If we can be equally creative down the right, I think we will be a much improved football team.

One last thing: Cahill is the heart and soul of Everton. I don’t know the stats, but I bet that the percentage of games won when Timmy is playing would be close to double that when he isn’t. He scores goals, and he does it in big games. Goals win games. And just as importantly, he believes.....

Tim Cahill is a born winner.

Most coaching success can be put down to 3 things a combination of

a) better players

b) luck.

c) knowing and doing the simple things...a sort of footballing obvious and simple not spitting into the wind type of stuff.............

a) better players, this now means mo’ money, there might be the odd big money flop but that has to do with ’b’ and ’c’. Moyes ’seems’ to have ’c’ sorted up to a point, the Cahill’s Arteta’s, Jags, Pienaars, but we can balance it with Koldrup, Beattie, AvdM, Wright.

b) luck, if there was a magic formula then based on that Kendall mk2 and 3 should have been as good or nearly as good as Kendall Mk1...You don’t think so?? Reid Sheedy and Grey were all perennial sick notes and all of a sudden how many games did he get out of them. The Oxford game, the Luton game...Richardsons handball clearance on the line Vs was it Villa?? and bad luck, Hansens phantom penno / hand ball...Grobelaars hand bag incident with whelan, we should have scored, they went right down the other end and did score ....NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE LUCK.

Mountfield and Bracewell played with injuries right to the end of the season, one never played again for 2 yrs and was never the same, same for Mountfield.

c) doing the simple thing, this comes down to, are you of the IMWT or Dithering Davey camp... for me he hasn’t known, or seemed to know his best 11 and how to play them. His use of subs is at best dubious and if pushed ( and it doesn’t seem to need much!! ) will always take the safety first option. Ballack and Lampard must have been smiling playing against Neville and Cahill, any sport with handicaps ( no pun ) and gradings would call it a miss match, but then again Davie is bound by ’a’, cursed by ’b’, and a stranger to ’c’.

Short version, Moyes is not a winner but it isn’t all his fault...OR IS IT??

I call my Honda Accord Tim Cahill. It wasn’t the best car on the market, but it was all I could afford and it's given me years of wonderful service.

The thousands of motorway miles I used to do have been replaced by town traffic — so I’m playing it out of position.

Nobody will give me very much for it, but it will cost me an absolute fortune to replace.

There’s very little loyalty shown to players by clubs either. Someone already mentioned Alan Ball. Man City just did it to Richard Dunne. We’ve done it to so many players, anyone in the Winslow when Duncan’s old man came in, telling us his lad was in tears after being sold to Newcastle?

Having had the privilege to spend an evening in the company of Tim Cahill — I would say that if anyone symbolises loyalty to his employer (and his fans) it’s him.

I’m with Michael on this one. Moyes is a good manager, a best of the rest manager who has produced a best of the rest team. My biggest gripe with him is his style of play, we are regarded by football critics, the media etc as being the worst football team to watch in the prem.

His style of play is a result of his defeatest attitude, he amazed me with his recent comments about how the team shouldn’t start believing they are great players because they will find themselves in a relegation battle. Totally in stark contrast to Colin Harvey’s assestment of the 1984 side when he was coach, he said the team were a great side and started to believe themselves that they were a great side.

I want Moyes to prove me wrong, maybe he will learn and start to believe in himself and the team he has built.

Very early for a great metaphor Dave!

And Michael, you know it’s a simplistic and utterly lazy view of football in the modern era. UEFA have helped to create a monopoly in the Premier League by allowing the top 4 into the mis-nomer that is the Champions League. Do you really expect us to win either of those competitions?
Or should we EASILY be winning the UEFA/Europa, Carling, or FA Cups?

Please! Get real.

Oh, and try to be a little less condescending when replying to a storm that you deliberately whipped up. And finally, don’t use he word ’FACT’!!!! Or we’ll whip up a coup ;-)

He actually did win the division 2 title at Preston when he was able to compete on a level playing field with other managers so does that not mean he’s a winner Michael?

Also, Steve Mclaren won a Carling Cup at Middlesborough, by your logic that makes him more of a winner than Moyes yet I know who I’d rather have managing Everton. I think your view is a little too black and white to be honest.

You’re right Neal Sutherland, Michael is arrogant, patronising and condescension pours from his keyboard, yet on this occasion I actually agree with him.

Moyes is more of a survivor than a winner. He demonstrates a naturally cautious attitude to tactics and coaching and I fear in our current situation, the only way is sideways or maybe down.

I did not suggest that Tim Cahill is past his best. I said I don’t know. David Moyes should know before anyone and my point is that he is not ruthless enough to act quickly enough. That is to his credit as a man but ultimately to the detriment of the club.

It's highly unlikely that Tim Cahill will be reading this thread, but just in case... Tim, you are already an Everton legend. Thanks for your loyalty.

Sell Tim Cahill? Last season there were people on this site saying they would like to have 10 more of him.

How dare he have a couple of sub standard games? For fuck's sake....

So we are back to the FA Cup Final again are we? Using it against Moyes to show he hasn’t got it in him to win big games. My view is that he hasn’t got a decent enough bench to win big games.

The first XI, when they all play well, can push the Sky 4 teams; however, when a few, ie most of them at Wembley, are having their Traore moments and he turns to his bench and looks for a leader/match winner, his heart must drop.

As we are constantly told by so many posters that most of our players are average/shit, why then is it they feel that Moyes should be able to make them into winners? He is obviously held back by the "average" players, is he not? Yes, he bought them but within the pathetic monetary constraints of a "poor" chairman.

The one thing about the managers who are "winners" in this league is that, apart from old Whisky Nose, they inherited a team that was already winning things, Moyes inherited an OAP home worthy of relegation. wannabes, slightly differing in my eyes.

"As you say, a more ruthless manager would have sold him on, and purchased 2 younger versions of Cahill. I again say this, Cahill has been magnificent for the club, but time to maximise the profits." ..... Ah, life is so simple isn’t it Ajay? Where do find two affordable Cahills?

And by "maximising" profits aren’t you turning EFC into an even bigger business than it already is? Should we sell Rodwell while we’re at it?

Michael Kenrick, this type of criticism leaves me flabbergasted - accusing Moyes of not being a "winner" is preposterous. Nobody in the PL is or can be a winner (I define winning as the PL championship) apart from the sky 4 (City will soon be added to them).

Taking that as a given the guy has performed absolute miracles and shown intense loyalty to the cause. When I read some of the knockers on TW I always want to say "be careful what you wish for".

Why would any manager have "cashed in" on Cahill? He is a HUGE HUGE player for us. Do you not realise that players do dip in form for various reasons? immensely fickle!

Furthermore, nobody seems to want to acknowledge that Cahill has been playing out of position all season. The lad is AM not CM... We all know this so why all the drama? November/December he'll bang in 8 headers and everybody will be wedging him again calling for him to be the captain and speaking of how he "epitomises Everton" .... breathe!

Cannot belive this thread, how many times has Tiny Tim saved us over the years? His goals, spirit and passion is what has helped us get where we are. To question is he past his best is utter shit. None of the players have covered themselves in glory yet Cahill is questioned. You say about Moyes's loyalty to the players, I call it building a team.

Some people do spout tripe! Moyes should have spoken out against Kenwright? Are you for real?

The chairman has given him one of the most lucrative contracts in club football and you expect Davey to tell the world the man’s a liar and a charlatan? Doddy keeps telling us the two are joined at the hip — and for once I believe him.

They’ve both kept each other in a job for years and for sure that ain’t gonna change now. Moyes has signed up to the Kenwright agenda and accepted that he will always work under financial constraint. He’s also accepted a salary that no other chairman was prepared to pay him!

Michael,

Moyes has won manager of the year three times since joining Everton. Nobody has won it more than he has. He is a winner. End of. He won it the year you bitched about us having a negative goal difference when we finished forth. This is voted for by people who know a lot more than you and I. You called this one wrong Michael and you know you did.

As soon as he gets the money to spend, relative to all other managers who have won the Premier League, and he is able to compete like-for-like then we can determine if he is capable of winning titles or not. My guess is that he is capable.

Can we stop talking about these manager of the year awards like its a trophy we’ve won. The top four managers are constantly at loggerheads with each other and are loathe to vote for one of their nearest rivals.
Moyes isn't seen as a threat, so if he finishes 5th, he’s guaranteed 4 votes.

Also let's just think about people like Krøldrup, Beattie and Fellaini before we claim Moyes would automatically succeed with if he was given the money. Many people believe he’s one of those guys who operate better within a tight budget

Michael.

Lol. Looks like you’ve pulled mate. Play your cards right and you wont have to spend Saturday nights winding the Moyse boys up for amusement.

Suzy

Be gentle with him — not!