Re: Point 4, Gareth, you ask for facts/clarity, yet offer an opinion criticising the fans for forcing the club to censor them? If anything, Gareth, you're a wind-up merchant and your surname is pyromaniac, as this is post is designed to irritate and annoy.

If I am wrong then at least make an effort to understand the reasons behind the opposition to Bill and Kirkby. Thus far, all you have done is call them Luddites, conspiracy theorists, and parochial — based on nothing more than your opinions.

He’s got some good points, David, and his efforts for clarity should not be lost under mudslinging from your own self.

Wind-up or not, there are a few valid questions — I’d love to know if there really have been any serious inquiries.

I can speak to question 3 though.

It’s not important to stay in Walton. I said since day one that "keep Everton in our city" was the wrong tactic because it expresses an unwillingness to move anywhere under any circumstances. This allowed EFC to frame the argument as an issue of "should we leave the city?" rather that actually focusing on the specifics of the stadium (which are shite).

A lot of people voted on the idea of "stay in a shithole in the city" OR "move to a great stadium outside." A lot of the Yes voters didn’t even consider "is this really a great stadium?" — it was purely a move or not vote. The issue of being in the city or not obscured the lousy transportation, cost and quality issues of the stadium. The fact that people are STILL considering this a "city or not" issues shows how well the club manipulated both the supporters of the move AND the opposition in re-framing the argument and diverting attention from the real issues. If only they were that astute in transfer dealings.

I’d prefer to stay in the city but I don’t care that much one way or the other. My opposition to moving is based purely on the fact that the stadium is not that good, has incredibly bad transportation and any cost overrun (which, let’s face it, in building is likely) would cancel out even the club’s optimistic extra revenue.

4. As for #4: The club was totally out of order to cancel all EGMs but the "we’ll call an EGM every month" tactic was misguided and they got their bluff called. They’ve been outwitted on almost every turn to be honest and it’s a shame because we really shouldn’t move (to this stadium).

David,

’If I am wrong then at least make an efort to understand the reasons behind the opposition to Bill and Kirkby. Thus far all you have done is call them Luddites, conspiracy theorists, and parochial — based on nothing more than your opinions.’

At no point have I called anyone any of what you suggest. Further, if anyone wants me to understand the oppostion or, for that matter, the promotion of anything then it is up to them to make a good case.

I also didn’t criticise the fans or anyone else, I simply pointed out that by not picking their battles they have allowed the club to get off the hook.

Finally, "Pyromaniac"? Was that the only word beginning with P you could come up with? I am a Season Ticket Holder and lifelong blue. I am also entitled to an opinion and at no point in my article did I suggest that I support the Chairman, The Business of the Club or that I am against KEIOC or anyone else.

Maybe, Gareth... but you did call for objectivity while displaying very little of it yourself. You can’t come onto a forum like this and expect to garner facts without opinion. Virtually every fact on here is opinion-based, it’s the essence of the forum.

I don’t think Bill has to sell at a specific price point, there’s no general provision in company law, but without sight of EFC’s memorandum & articles it’s impossible to know.

As for your other points, all I’ve ever read about investment/sale has been paper talk, with the exception of announcements by the board, like Chris Samuelson of Fortress Sports Fund.

I agree with you that a luxury hotel in Walton might struggle, can’t really offer any facts though. It might be an idea to have another go, Gareth, but this time try to be a little more subtle.

Gareth, first of all to do with the issue of confidentiality. Before details of a proposed sale to a potential buyer are disclosed, the potential buyer has to sign "a confidentiality agreement" which is a legally binding document that states the person or persons being given the "confidential" information cannot disclose it to other parties without a hefty lawsuit following.

There is also no worse place to disclose it than on the internet which puts it right out in the public domain and therefore leaves the discloser wide open to a "large" lawsuit.

I can tell you without prejudice that the sale is being handled by Green and Earl and is very complicated. That is a fact.

On your point about Kenwright it may not be that he is "blocking" a sale but by putting certain conditions on it he may not be exactly encouraging it either.

For example his consortium bought the majority shareholding in EFC for │£20 million plus debts of £5 million.

If the asking price was £120 million plus £80 million in debts plus the £150 million (new stadium valuation) as has been widely rumoured (but not by me) and was subject to a number of other onerous conditions which are non-negotiable then you might as a potential buyer look for easier pickings.

As to staying in Walton, nobody (including KEOIC) has ever said that is the be-all and end-all. Most fans IMO just want to stay in the "Capital of Culture" which has the infrastructure to serve over 1 million people, unlike Kirkby, which hasn't even got the infrastructure to properly serve it’s 40,000 residents.

If you lived in Walton for 25 years, you will know that it is far better served with transport, bars and facilities that Kirkby can only dream of.

The fans are not there to be held to account but the Board of Directors are. If shareholders have serious questions on the motivation or ability of the directors who supposedly run the club, they should have every right to question that.

And if that right is removed for the first time in the club’s history, you have to question the motivation of the people who deny that right.

You ask for facts... well let me tell you they are staring you in the face.

With a long history of lies, if somebody tells you for 9 years that they are "looking for investment 24/7" and there is not a hint of any investor — does that not tell you your answer!!

1. Kenwright can do what he and his buddies want. There is no statutory requirement to sell a private company at any stage.

2. No evidence. Merely logic. The amount of clubs that have changed hands over the last 5 years means that it would be logical to assume we’ve been approached by some of these people.

3. Staying in Walton isn’t important. Not misleading fans into voting for a white elephant, however, is.

4. Don’t understand this question at all.

Personally, Gareth, I think you do indeed appear to be trying to be as objective and diplomatic as possible. I agree with your points and at times feel exasperated at the amount of baseless slanging directed at Kenwright on this site. He is shockingly gaffe-prone ("more to come" "watch this space" etc) and undoubtedly his ego is massively enhanced by the fact that he runs the club, but it angers me when people cry out for more money that he simply does not have to be thrown at new players. We are poor, there are no two ways about it.

Our fans are not rich, our chairman is not rich, and by comparison to other teams in the division, even our players are not rich. Added to which, we are overshadowed by the filthy shite across the park. If you were an investor, why would you choose Everton? Where would you make your money? All our fans are already decked out in as much kit as they can physically buy and an increase in season ticket prices would cause uproar amongst our fans, many of whom could not afford it.

How can a city such as Liverpool, which has not had a semblance of wealth in over half a century, viably support two money-making teams? Only somebody like Bill, a man of proportionally limited funds but one who loves the club, would want to own this club.

Company law does not prohibit Bill from holding on to the club, or at least his share. I have seen no evidence for Bill hiding away money to line his own pockets from the club yet he’s accused of being some kind of kleptocrat on this site week-in, week-out. He might be a wanker, but he’s not a crook or a thief.

I also think your point about Walton is completely correct. Nobody even stays in Chelsea’s hotel despite being in prime west london real estate. Who the hell would stay away from the city centre in Liverpool other than travelling fans?

All in all, Gareth, a refreshingly different point of view that I feel can often be drowned out on this site.

David O’Keefe — "at least make an efort to understand the reasons behind the opposition to Bill and Kirkby."

It seems to me that by asking for these facts, that is exactly what he is doing. In not being able to answer... you don’t really add much to the discussion.

Marcus — "every fact on here is opinion-based".

Well they’re not facts then are they? He asked if anyone has the facts. If they don’t... that’s the answer — ’No!’

It’s impossible to answer points 3 and 4 with facts because they can only be answered with an opinion, but I’ll have a go anyway.

1) The owners decide when and if to sell their possession - they are not obliged to do so, no matter what conditions are met.

2) At least one consortium has offered to buy the current owners out completely but was instead offered a place on the board in return for their investment. Is this a fact? I wasn’t present, but I was told first-hand by someone who WAS present and whom I trust completely. (This is all the detail I have or ever will give, as the other "fact" involved with this was that I was sworn to secrecy — as were the consortium — which I have always kept up. The full description of events left me in no doubt at all that it was true).

As I said earlier, points 3 and 4 can only be answered with opinion, so for completeness, I’ll provide my own.

3) Walton isn’t important to me, but Goodison IS, and until a full INDEPENDENT (i.e. not by the people who are contracted to build Kirkby!) assessment of the possibility of redevelopment is carried out and dismissed as unfeasible, then I wouldn’t want to even start looking anywhere else. If the board had put enough effort into that as they have into Desperation Kirkby then things would be a lot clearer, but everything is about short-term quick fixes and easy options unfortunately.

4) I was at the last EGM that was called (and the previous AGMs/EGMs before that) and the "we’ll call an EGM every month until we get answers" was a throwaway comment that was seized upon by the board to use as an excuse to stop them having to face any more awkward questions. There was a LOT of opposition to Kirkby in the room that night and the answers that were given to lots of questions were extremely weak.

I think the way in which the rules regarding AGMs and EGMs were changed is perhaps the most appalling and cowardly act that this board has carried out — a clear indication that they were struggling to answer all the perfectly reasonable questions that were being asked of them by shareholders of their own company.

Yet another quick fix solution in a long line of them — no wonder they’ve taken The People’s Club banner down.

Jay Harris. You say Kenwright "may" not be blocking the sale of our club but he "may" not be encouraging it either. It is just as sound to suggest that he "may" not be discouraging the sale. Your uncertainty here is in sharp contrast to your claim to know the role of Green and Earl. You may be right.

Ciaran McGlone. "No evidence. Merely logic." I would call statement guesswork not logic. My guess is that if there was a serious query from investors who saw our club as a profitable venture, and they were thwarted by Kenwright or other board members, we would know about if. All media outlets would pick up such a story very quickly. As you say, there is no evidence of approaches by serious investors. I conclude that there have been none.

Tom, totally agree, no way the media would miss that, wasn’t there a rumour in the press not that long ago.

I wonder what I would do in BK’s position. After years of success in my chosen field, not being a luvvie in my case thank God, I find myself the owner of my beloved Everton. Admittedly I am not the richest owner around, but nor are my club in danger of going bankrupt. So what do I do, would I sell to the first Arab/American billionaire who comes along and risk ending on the verge of going bankrupt, as happened with Liverpool over the summer.

Do I wait until the right new owner comes along, preferably a true blue like me, only richer. Naturally putting up with the insults of the fans who can’t understand why clubs like Portsmouth can find buyers whilst I can’t.

Or do I try and find investors, people who will provide money whilst I keep hold of the best thing I ever owned.

Personally, I think I would go for option 3 if the club was successful enough, or option 2 if the club was stable but not really hitting the heights.

Maybe BK thinks that we are successful enough at the moment and just need investors to take the final step.

Sorry I went of topic, it just came into my head as I was reading everyones posts. Guess I should go back to the asylum now!

Gareth, Point 4 "who holds the fans to account?"

It makes your claims to objectivity a load of bollocks. The fans in questions are the shareholders and they have the right to hold the club to account. That they were censored is the clubs fault, not theirs. The fact that you claim otherwise is mind-boggling.

You also misrepresented the KEIOC and no voter position.

You ask for clarity and facts, but in truth you only want your views confirmed, not challenged.

Also don’t claim that you are objective, it insults the collective intelligence of the site's contributors. Objectivity doesn’t really exist, facts do... as does interpretation of the facts. In future, declare your position, do not obfuscate and then start whining when you are challenged.

Gareth this looking for clarity of yours is, despite your protestations, a defence of a discredited regime. That you chose to critice the club's small shareholders for holding the club to account tells me everything I need to know about you and your dishonest search for clarity.

James,
The difference between a Chelsea hotel and an Everton hotel is that Everton fans care about their club and not just supporting one of the biggest teams in the world. So every Everton fan visiting the NW would want to stay at Goodison if it was possible.

I know I would, and that's a fact, if nothing else is.

"Looking for Clarity"........But clarity of what? These are mainly pointless and/or irrelevant side issues to once again cloud the real issue? You ask for Facts when the fundamental fact is out of town stadia are predominantly white elephants that were tried decades ago and in most environments have died a death, prompting the largest stadium building-boom in the US in almost a century as stadia are predominantly relocating downtown. Facts are: the club have never once demonstrated that redevelopment is not viable before or since the vote. They and their "experts" have never demonstrated a viable transport plan, their last effort (one of many) even prompting Knowsley to cover their arses with a capacity capping clause because they know it can’t be done, but won’t care once they’ve got their shops.

1 and 2. Can you say for a fact that the club has not been approached or that Kenwright even has the power to sell himself given exclusivity deals and backing he has received from other parties during and even leading to his chairmanship? Would it really be prudent for an investor/buyer to announce to all and sundry that they wanted to buy Everton when after they have to try buy another club if knocked back with the notion of them then being 2nd choice? ultimately though, how likely is it that EFC haven’t been approached considering practically EVERY club has changed ownership, found investment in recent years, some more than once? Many languishing far below Everton in fanbase, history, league position and Stadium capacity. Bet you wouldn’t put your house on it!

3. No-one has said staying in Walton was all important, not even KEIOC who have also championed alternative sites. However they do recognise the glaring value of what is intrinsic to that location, not least over 100 yrs of history and tradition and its connected identity at the centre of easily the most dense and populous concentration of Evertonians anywhere. They have also very easily demonstrated vastly superior transport in the more central location, and even the experts have long since given up trying to argue otherwise. "Walton is a hole...." is that one of your counter facts? Walton itself is rundown in parts, but so is Kirkby, so I’m not sure of your point. It certainly has more character and pubs on one street than Kirkby has in it’s entirety..... subjective I know, but I think you’d find it hard to argue against. External revenue streams? What external revenue streams that cannot be replicated at GP for a fraction of the £78m outlay? But out of interest, what exactly are these external revenue streams you think are exclusive to DK? or is it just a soundbite you’ve picked up as opposed to one of those facts you crave? Hotels? Liverpool City centre has bucked the national trend and is still short of hotel beds, hence recently announced planning permission for 2 new large hotels there and several more in the pipeline(in a credit-crunch even), with many franchises reporting highest occupancy rates in the UK. (unlike London for instance with tens of thousands of beds in a saturated market). Try getting a room when LFC are home, that’s at least another 25 full houses (yes norwegians and paddies would think nothing of staying there), and it’s only 2 miles from the city-centre on a prominent corner site and arterial route. City planners have consistently stated that there is scope for such.

4. These weren’t just any old fans, they were shareholders.... part-owners of the club. They called the EGM because they demanded answers to genuine concerns.... demanded "clarity" to the real questions you conveniently avoid because the biggest issue to you seems to be whether or not BK’s honour is tarnished or some-such irrelevance. When the club could not answer the questions and open revolt threatened they realised they couldn’t afford another damaging lambasting from their shareholders. That’s why there’ll be no more EGM’s.... they took their ball home!

NSNO.... indeed!

Same shit, another day. Same people, same entrenched views and despite the (admittedly naive and perhaps a little sanctimonious) call for facts not one has been forthcoming.

For what it’s worth Gareth I think you raise some valid points, though I must agree with previous posters that some of your questions cannot be answered with anything else but opinion.

David O’Keefe - So you disagree, yet you don’t really offer anything of substance in response and accuse Gareth of saying things or implying things that he has clearly not done. "Thus far all you have done is call them, Ludittes, conspiracy theorists and parochial based on nothing more than your opinions." I didn’t see him call anyone any of those things. "You also misrepresented the KEIOC and no voter position" Where did he do that?

These posts trundle along in the same way everytime with entrenched positions. Very few fans who read these posts will change their minds because it seems to come down to whether you trust BK et al. Lines have been drawn and it is very sad to see but clearly people feel strongly about this issue so it is inevitable.

Finally, whilst I never believed that the post would actually get any facts in response, I applaud his challenge to being expected to accept an extreme view based on nothing but opinion often dressed up as fact. It could be argued that logic would suggest that we have been approached, but it could also be argued that logic would suggest we’d have heard something about it. Neither can be held up as fact so on we go.

Without evidence to prove it one way or another, a section of fans will prefer to believe that BK and his boys are sabotaging the sale of, and the running of the club, while another section will prefer to trust the board. The idea that we will ever all agree on anything is ridiculous so the debate rolls on.

COYB!!

Dick Anderson, I’m with you all the way. I love the game of football.

I understand that football and ’business’ go hand in hand nowadays and the way the club is run matters to lots of fans but I just love watching the football and supporting the team that I choose at the age of 9 some 20 years ago now!!! Bring on Fulham.

Point 1: Kenwright cannot prevent the sale of the club. As a minority shareholder holding around 25% of the shares he is in no position to block takeover. Were another party to acquire a 51% shareholding or more Bill would effectively be powerless. Other than the ability to annoy the new board by calling pointless EGM’s, his shareholding would give him no say in the running of the club. He had a majority shareholding in True Blue Holdings, which in turn had a controlling share of the club, and so by dissolving TBH he effectively gave up a controlling share of the club. Not really the actions of someone who we like to paint as refusing to give up the train set. But hey – why let the facts get in the way when we want an ogre to blame.

RE: point 3

Because throughout the history of the British game no club has thrived in a location more than 3.5 miles from its major centre. Kirkby is 8.4 miles out. Clubs located at the edge of major towns are called Bury,Stockport or Walsall.

Jimmy,
My feelings are that BK is only the figurehead who is there to put his name to things that you and most Evertonians would want nothing to do with if it wasn’t fronted by "one of our own". You obviously didn’t attend the said EGM, otherwise you might have noticed that the vast majority voiced several very pertinent points that had the board tied in knots and remained unanswered. Given the overwhelming level of support in the room they would’ve had no problem in securing further support for further EGM’s to try to secure the real facts which as shareholders they have a right to.... so hardly pointless IMO! BTW, How does another party simply acquire 51% just like that? How many leading shareholders would this third party need to convince? Who now owns the other mystery shares attributed to TBH..... Earl, Green perhaps? If so should EFC be controlled by those who have a vested interest in securing the retail aspect of DK, since they could be acting in their own best interests rather than in EFC’s since retail development planning and stadium development planning can and has been shown to be diametrically opposed in DK’s case? Nothing to do with wanting an ogre, just a few answers and the truth would be nice.

Neil- Read Gareth’s post again and read it carefully-point 3 is the luddite argument claiming that Keioc and the no vote has a sentimental attachment to Walton an area that he calls a shithole. He may not have used those words but the implications are clear.

As for charge of not challenging the substance of his post, I did just that on point four; a fact that you ignored.

For the record Neil, if your defence of the board is to sneer "What would you do?" I’m afraid you’ve already conceded the argument.

Read Gareth’s post again, its got a fact content of zero and extremely dishonest. The fact that you applaud it saddens me and partially explains why the club is in such a state.

I will give Gareth some credit — for being the first yes voter to speak up in favour of BK and DK, albeit negatively.

David,

Gareth never proclaimed he was stating any facts

He was clearly asking questions.
In my opinion it makes sense to start a forum topic with a question .. albeit wasted on many people here.

I am pretty sure people have enquired about Everton’s availability, but have not pursued it due to the fact we are waiting on a decision regarding DK that will shape the entire future of our football club. It makes zero sense for an investor to come in now, as if the move is rejected, Goodison Park canot generate the kind of revenue needed to give a return on some serious investment. I would also guess that some investors have enquired, and been refused immediately as they do not have the kind of money needed to put this club where it should be. Some of these may have gone on to take over other clubs, like Notts County for instance.

Its no secret that our club makes no profit. And it is very obvious what an investor is looking for: something can give him/her more money than they put in. Right now, Everton is not an attractive investment due to the fact we make no money. So in effect, an investor simply would not get any return.

Some people seem to believe having a decent history means you are a good target for investment. This is the equivalent of trying to sell a Ford Cortina in todays market and saying ’this used to be one of the top cars..’

In all honesty though, I do not think anybody can accurately answer any of your questions with some hard facts. I am a supporter of the club leaving Goodison Park, simply because that is the thing holding us back. Its no coincidence that our average attendance is almost directly in proportion to how many unobstructed seats we have got. I know a lot of people are saying ’I will never go to Kirkby’ and that is fine. In the grand scheme of things, I dont think that is going to make much difference. A new stadium with very little relative debt is going to make us an attractive investment. If we get investment that puts us into the Champion’s League consistently, then more people will go to watch Everton, regardless of the stadium being in Kirkby.

Bollocks Mark. Point four is stating as fact that the shareholders are responsible for having their righs to call an EGM taken away from them.

The main problem that I have with Gareth's post is that I don’t accept the Pro-BK, Pro DK paradigm. That paradigm is explicitly present in points 3 and 4, and it makes his claim to be objective and looking for clarity, dishonest.

Gareth, re point four, look up freudian slip — liar.
Now stop wasting my time.

David, regarding point 3, there are people who insist that the only acceptable move is to stay at Goodison, Gareth does not claim that it is KEIOC, that is you making an assumption, and as you appear to be in the minority maybe your interpretation of what he has written is wrong.

What he has done is put a lot of questions forward that, if they remain unanswered, could be used to show that fans are not being fair towards the chairman and board of our football club. If that makes him pro BK then so what, nothing you have said has given any substance to the discussion other than the fact that you are anti-Kenwright. Maybe you do have proof backing up your hatred, if so share it with us. And please don’t get "looking for investors 24/7" confused with looking to sell the club, they aren’t the same thing.

If you bring up Kings Dock, I will award you one point because that was shady.

Dan
It is really difficult for people to come up with facts on any of the 4 points. My points about the distance from the centre of the city are based on facts and i challenge anybody to produce a major team thriving on the edge of a big city. I don’t include London as it has a unique geography. What facts are you basing your assumption that given success on the pitch crowds and revenues will go up. If the location and poor transport links make attending the game more dificult then we could find the DK is totally counter productive.

Steve: My interpretation is valid, right or wrong be damned, if you don’t accept it fair enough. For the record I have dealt with Gareths "points" especially 3 and 4, so either you have not read the thread or you are telling lies.

I take issue with Gareth asking for clarity through a Pro-DK, Pro-BK paradigm. Point four is the prime example of this, blaming the shareholders for having their rights taken away from them is staggering. Gareth doesn’t want the board to be held to account , but the fans this is the most striking aspect of this post.

Speak truth to power? Not exactly Gareths position is it? In truth its sneer at the powerless and blame them for having their rights taken away from them.

Gareth hasn’t asked any questions he only wants his biases confirmed and I’m afraid its not going to happen. The reason for this is that I and many others in this thread do not accept the paradigm.

Dan,

That’s one of the weakest attempts to twist logic in support of Kirkby that I’ve seen .

"I would also guess that some investors have enquired, and been refused immediately as they do not have the kind of money needed to put this club where it should be. Some of these may have gone on to take over other clubs, like Notts County for instance."

Hold on a mo, aren’t the new owners connected to Al Thani investments? If so aren’t they valued in multiple Billions, and are even represented by a former Everton Director? Can’t see how they wouldn’t be wealthy enough, nor not in the know.

"Its no secret that our club makes no profit. And it is very obvious what an investor is looking for: something can give him/her more money than they put in"

How many clubs are profitable? By that logic, none would have been bought or invested in, and that patently isn’t so!

"Some people seem to believe having a decent history means you are a good target for investment. "

No, people might correlate a "decent history" with potentially a strong and loyal fanbase that is therefore investable in, as opposed to a tiny club with no fans, however it would appear investors can even be attracted to them, may be the historical factor of being the oldest professional football club in the world might have been an attraction for Al Thani’s people, who knows?

"I am a supporter of the club leaving Goodison Park, simply because that is the thing holding us back. Its no coincidence that our average attendance is almost directly in proportion to how many unobstructed seats we have got."

Therefore by definition could it be said that the board have held us back for having spent the least on their stadium of practically all other clubs? Or, alternatively why not re-roof and extend sections to greatly reduce the number of obstructed views, and increase capacity....? This needn’t cost anything like the same as DK, and can be done in affordable phases..... For instance see what has been planned at both Sheffield stadia (while they’re not even in the prem)where substantial capacity and facilities are being added for a fraction of the £78m we need for Kirkby. Also, do you not think that average attendance is directly affected by convenience factor and transport issues? If not this contradicts all stadium planning philosophy. Stadia should ideally be located close to major transport hubs with concentrations of public transport preferably radiating in all directions with mass rapid transit capacity. The club have consistently failed to demonstrate how Kirkby can ever have anything approaching this nor match Walton (and certainly not the Loop site) in terms of public transport, connectivity to all Merseyside areas, Public transport capacity, and site access routes to/from main connurbation. Only today Elstone confessed that should they get the go ahead they will try to address these obvious defficiencies..... This was stated to be the most accessible stadium in the country at the time of the vote and therefore these issues should be a formality and readily resolved. Experts have been working on it for the past 3 years and still haven’t presented a viable transport strategy. Everyone knows this will be one of the least accessible stadia anywhere! Hardly condusive of increasing attendances in the medium to long term.

"I know a lot of people are saying ’I will never go to Kirkby’ and that is fine. In the grand scheme of things, I dont think that is going to make much difference."

Actually, I don’t think it will be fine at all, it could be catastrophic, since as is well documented we don’t have a waiting list of thousands to take the place of the dissenters, and in anycase we need to increase our average by something like 30% in a stadium we can’t get to as easily, to even cover our costs.

So Tom please answer this. What is the reason for not redevloping Goodison if it is actually possible? Bearing in mind that if the Board sold up after redevelpoment, the club would be valued more highly than at Kirkby.

If BK has rejected bids from investors that are billionaires and willing to fund the club to put us back to the top, then provide some evidence of it. Or at least tell us how the takeover bid was not made public, as in the case of all failed take over bids.

"No, people might correlate a "decent history" with potentially a strong and loyal fanbase that is therefore investable in, as opposed to a tiny club with no fans, however it would appear investors can even be attracted to them, may be the historical factor of being the oldest professional football club in the world might have been an attraction for Al Thani¡¯s people, who knows?"

Wrong again. There is already a measurable of fanbases. It is called attendance figures. And if you review those figures for the Premier League, you will see that all those teams above us that have a decent stadium and a decent fanbase have been invested in. Winning cups years ago means nothing to investors. That cannot make you money.

Hi Garry

A lot of what you say is actually news to me.
You say that several people have posted on TW claiming to KNOW of an invester that tried to buy the club.
I’d be interested to read these posts, can you point me in the right direction.

You also asked why staying in Walton isnt so important.
Well who said it was ? to the overwhelming majority it isnt, offer Evertonians a stadium in a prime location, say the Kings Dock and they would snatch your hand off, offer them a shed in Kirkby and they will prefer GP.
As for Walton being "minging" I can only assume you havent sampled the delights of Aston, Harringay, Holloway, Salford, Portsmouth ( all of it ) or just about any other Area in the country that houses a large football stadium. Plaistow makes Walton look like York.
If your offended by decaying inner city shops and pubs, I suggest you really need to take up another sport . . .or follow Derby County

And Dan - More revelations."Its very obvious what an investor is looking for, something that can give Him/Her more money than they put in"
Is that so ? I wonder if anyone has explained that to Jack Walker, Mike Astley, Roman Abromovich, Steve Gibson, Randy Learner, The Yanks, The Arabs at City , the Icelandics . . .
Do you know I always believed these incredibly successful business people came into the game for other reasons than to make money.. . . . . Who’d have thought they’d all be such dickheads

Some good examples of investment there Dave. Lets have a look at each:

Jack Walker: Put the majority of money he had into Blackburn Rovers, but proved to be nowhere near enough to sustain because there was simply no money coming back in. 4 years after winning the title, they were relegated. Walker’s reason for investment was being a Rovers fan from birth.

Mike Astley: Life long Newcastle supporter, whose legacy was more impressive than Walkers ill fated appointment. Managed to get his club relegated within 2 years of taking over.

Roman Abramovich: Not much can be said about why this guy bought Chelsea, apart from the fact it was not to make money out of it. So we can only assume that he did it for fun, as he has ploughed in £704 million and counting. He is obviously not looking for a return and remains quite unique in the world of football.

Steve Gibson: Again a life long fan, bought the club and saw it transformed into big spenders. But again, proved to be unsustainable. Ultimately resulted in nothing, as they have now sold all their top players and been relegated. Boro are around 90 million in debt.

Randy Lerner: From what we have seen up to now, has invested very little into Aston Villa. This close season had us thinking he was going to spend big and push Villa on. In fact, their net spend was very little after selling Gareth Barry.

The Yanks: Ha ha, this is the funniest. Took over Liverpool, and then promptly transfered the cost of the takeover onto Liverpool’s books as debt. Yearly interest payments (interest only!) of Liverpool’s debt is only £15 million — Everton’s total turnover per year. Also spent very little net this close season.

The Arabs: Very little is known about why they have chosen Manchester City as their new toy. To be honest, the only thing they had going for them was a new stadium, which they got luckily due to the fact it was a former commenwealth games host before City took over. It cost them only 20 million to convert. A few years later, they started getting invested in starting with Shinawatra, and followed by the arabs.

The Icelandics: Well, another group coming in and promising the world. West Ham are currently heavily in debt, and have sold to survive after the banks in Iceland have called their money in after the credit crisis. Their investment raised them from relegation candidates to a 10th and 9th place finish respectively.

So some good examples of investment there Dave. You also forgot the 174 million debt that Fayed has pumped into Fulham. So which one do you want in charge of Everton Dave?

Dan, very good list, but you missed Portsmouth’s past and current owners. Only fair to give Dave and others a chance to say that they would prefer them to Kenwright. (We would have just done the equivalent of selling Cahill, Arteta, Yakubu, Saha and Jagielka - but who knows?)

In reality, I would say that there is one maybe two clubs which I would regard as clearly preferable in its ownership over the last few years than ours.

The clear one is Arsenal. They have managed to stay in the Champions League, support Wenger, extract commercial revenues, invest in a wonderful stadium, and create stability both on the playing and financial sides. Far and away the pick of the bunch.

My second is Tottenham, but only because of their commercial side. Their return on their massive player investment has been shocking, and the cost of all the managerial merry-go-rounds has been foolish. Still, overall I think this is a strongly run club which we could learn from.

Any other owners obviously preferable? Not that I can see. Still I’m sure some heroic souls will be prepared to argue that the Icelandics or Mike Ashley would be better than Kenwright.

Neil, I am not sure I agree to be honest. Both Arsenal and Spurs make good money because they have something that we will never have: A capital location where prices are much higher than Walton will ever be. They can charge a lot more for tickets and merchandise than we ever could.

Fair point obviously Dan. They have huge advantages over us. But I am just doing my best to find SOME owners obviously preferable to ours. I think Lerner used to be a clear case, but certainly Villa fans I know are not at all happy about the level of recent investment there.

The funny thing is Neil, that some people actually quote other invesmtents that have actually left those clubs considerably WEAKER! Nobody can seem to understand that when an investment goes wrong, and the investors realise they wont make any money, they strip the asset (sell the players) to reclaim the money they put in, and do anything they can to get sell it. This site is amazing, you even get people saying ’look at Notts County, they got investment’. They sky 4 must be fucking shitting themselves......

Dan,

"What is the reason for not redevloping Goodison if it is actually possible?"

Jeez Dan, this has been covered inside out. But for starters..... How about the simple fact that redeveloping Goodison wouldn’t give Earl and Green a vast shopping centre to add to their retail empires in a location they cannot possibly get without the stadium development being bolted on to it? Why do you think they are even involved in EFC? This is their clawback for underwriting BK’s tenure. Therefore, I’d say their influence is paramount, despite people’s constant referral back to all things Kenwright and his royal blue credentials. Where have you been for the past 3 years? Firstly the club have no serious studies of the options for redeveloping GP whether by building 1,2 or 3 new stands or remodelling/expanding existing structures. They just do not exist..... WHY, how can this be? They have never applied for any planning studies regarding extension of footprint to generate more capacity or better facilities. How do I know....? Simple, I have asked all parties, including the club. But FYI No-one, not even the club is now saying it is not possible to redevelop Goodison. They had to climb down from that one long ago. They have since tried to say that it would be too costly.... again with NO independent design studies of all the options, and with overwhelming evidence to the contrary in the form of numerous examples of clubs redevelopment projects, such as the 2 sheffield clubs I’ve already mentioned.

"If BK has rejected bids from investors that are billionaires and willing to fund the club to put us back to the top, then provide some evidence of it. Or at least tell us how the takeover bid was not made public, as in the case of all failed take over bids."

OK, you’re right Everton FC is the exception of exceptions. At a time when ALL other clubs have found investment/buyers..... No-one is the least bit interested in the club with one of the largest fanbases in the country, one of the best managers who has consistently pushed us closest to challenging the top 4, with a share-value that would secure control for a fraction of what it would cost to buy say championship Newcastle for instance. Everton FC floats above all this in its own little world. No-one has mentioned failed take-overs except you to dramatise your pointless assertion in the complete absence of any substance or argument. Could it be the club simply isn’t for sale till Tesco Terry, Green and Earl get their reward?

"Wrong again. There is already a measurable of fanbases. It is called attendance figures. And if you review those figures for the Premier League, you will see that all those teams above us that have a decent stadium and a decent fanbase have been invested in. Winning cups years ago means nothing to investors. That cannot make you money."

Wrong again? Which other bit was I wrong about? How contradictory do you want to be? You say we are not investable because of our ground, City don’t even own there own ground, the example you gave of Notts county have a tiny ground and fanbase that wouldn’t fill the Gwladys street. I’ll say again..... Everton are not investable in at this moment because amongst other reasons they are controlled by people who need the club to enable their retail scheme in Kirkby. A new owner might not want to move away from the city, especially if they follow modern stadium planning philosophy or caught wind of the public inquiry when all the issues were laid bare, so you’ll not see any movement there until the decision is made..... hence the reason why all talk of take overs etc is simply a smoke screen to detract from the horrendous notion of moving out of town. BTW there are numerous other measures of fanbase such as stats compiled by the football research unit. The goodwill connected to any business is very much related to its customer base. We are certainly stronger in this category than most over clubs who have acquired investment. In our case that fanbase has been largely derived because of our history so its a nonsense to say that it doesn’t affect the size of our support and therefore our saleability. BTW, of all the clubs above us how many have redeveloped their existing stadia? ....and Conversely, how many with new stadia, have vanished out of site? Not always the nailed on winning solution you were sold?

The usual response on this site is: these clubs aren’t us, so are somehow irrelevant. As if it isn’t PRECISELY this list of potential owners who we might have instead of Kenwright.

The idea seems to be that there must be an owner out there, as rich as Abramovich and as hands-off as Lerner - and that Kenwright keeps turning him away! If only....

Please no more of Notts County!

Saying "Notts County can get investment, why can’t we?" is a bit like saying "Britannia Building Society has been taken over, why hasn’t Barclays Bank?"

Er... because they are much bigger and would cost a lot more and require massively more investment?

Neil, Dan,

OK, you win BK is marvellous because...... well, all the others are rogues! After you have finished congratulating yourselves can you please then explain the multiple lies that supported a farcical one sided ballot.... or how a stadium in Kirkby can ever be more desirable/fillable than one more central when there is no supporting evidence anywhere?

No? Didn’t think so! Well for once you’d best start actually trying to solve that connundrum instead of the incessant defence of the sacred one......because that single issue has the power to sink this club quicker than anything that has happened in it’s history, and guess what? It isn’t been driven by people with the club’s best interests at heart. Everton FC in Kirkby is a square peg in a round hole to get Earl and Green their investments back!

Dan,
You're answering your own bloody argument, you constantly claim people will only be interested in taking Everton on to make money, but then accept that its nigh-on impossible to make money from a football club! Which is it to be?

Stop deluding yourselves FFS, there are a million safer investments than a football club. Nobody in their right mind would even consider taking one over if that was the reason. They are money pits and these extremely wealthy people go in with their eyes wide open.

And another thing, do you really believe investment is a bad thing for the club? Football clubs do not suffer from investment, they suffer when that investment is squandered.

Neil,
It was Dan who said:

"I would also guess that some investors have enquired, and been refused immediately as they do not have the kind of money needed to put this club where it should be. Some of these may have gone on to take over other clubs, like Notts County for instance"

Only to drop it when he found out that those investors are connected to Al Thani.... who play in Billions!..... But once again, all a side issue!

Tom, I don’t think that Kenwright is great, but the other owners are basically the available or typical pool of alternatives to him. So the fact that nearly all of them are worse than Kenwright could not be more relevant. (Before selling say Baines, it would be pretty sensible to look at who we might get instead, no?)

The problem on Toffeeweb is that the intense outrage about Kenwright would lead one to naturally assume that all the other clubs have wonderful owners. All Dan and I are saying is: far from it! Indeed, we are hard pushed to find ANY current owners that are obviously preferable (although I would still stick with Arsenal).

Clearly you don’t know much about Philip Green, Tom. He is quite possibly the most powerful and successful retailer in the UK right now. The idea that he has got heavily involved in Everton just to get an outlet in Kirkby is a bit laughable to be honest. The man can get into any retail site, anywhere, anytime he likes.

If Notts County are a side issue Tom, would you (and others) stop bringing them up then? I’m sure Dan and I can promise that we won’t mention them again.

Dave W, of course I think investment is a good thing for a football club. But it is consistent, stable investment that is required.

The point Dan and I are making is that very many of the current investors in big football clubs have been extremely short term and have actually damaged the clubs they took over.

Steve Pugh

Whilst the hotel question is not really the important part of this article, which is Gareth’s search for evidence to prove the anti-kenwright agenda so prevalent on TW, I feel I should address your point which i think misses the issue about a "Goodison Hotel"

We have more fans than any other who walk to the ground or live in its vicinity; you’re right, I would stay there overnight when I attend Everton games (I have to travel from London).

However, even if you filled the hotel everytime there was a match, this would leave you with perhaps full occupancy one night in every 14! Even a basic grasp of economic theory should tell you that a business with that model cannot make money and will haemorrage our tiny funds even further!

Neil,
I didn’t bring up Notts County.... Dan did!

Also, Green despite his wealth cannot get a large shopping Mall in Kirkby without EFC hence the Public Inquiry. He also cannot make the site as convenient for match-going Evertonians as say Walton..... even he’s not wealthy enough, nor inclined to simply change a whole city’s logistics to suit a football club..... But suffice to say the Al Thani group could give him a run for his money.... oh sorry forgot I can’t mention them!

Neil... such as who?

Newcastle have been a yo-yo club all my life, that Astley wiped away their debt in an instant wasn't a bad thing; Villa are once again viewed as a top half team; Sunderland have at last found stability; Chelsea have gone from strength to strength; Man U seem to be in the CL final every year; Wigan are now a Prem club; City are no longer considered relegation fodder and are now enormous; Fulham have gone from the third tier to perminant residence in the Prem...

Who are these horrible people you and Dan keep banging on about ?

Dave, there is a danger of a real pissing contest here on ’how bad or good X is’. I would go back to Dan’s original run down (and add my Portsmouth and the Icelandics....).

An easy response to you of course is: Why is Kenwright so horrible then? Everton have found stability and have been punching way above their weight for the last five years.

So if Wigan and Sunderland and Fulham et al get such glowing endorsements from you because they (sometimes) finish mid table - what is so horrible about Kenwright?

The point is that there are real disaster cases (Newcastle, Portsmouth, West Ham), disasters that may one day happen (Liverpool, even Man Utd), and then a bunch of clubs who’ve done worse than us, and mostly invested little if any more. Yet Kenwright is an atrocity. That’s what I can’t understand.

But Neil, as usual Dan makes a very lengthy list but he actually says very little, he seems to accept that Blackburn and Boro fans had great times they would otherwise never have had; he glosses over the incredible success Chelsea and Man U have enjoyed, not to mention the wonderful exciting times City fans are experiencing right now. He chooses to ignore Villa's purchases, sneers at West Ham's mid-table finish, he even sneers at Fulham, from third tier to Europe

I honestly don't see why you think his list says anything at all.

As for Kenwright, I was never a hater; yes, I always understood people like Jay Harris who only ever seem to have wanted the truth, but he is hellbent on Kirkby — that will inflict more harm on my club than all the sins you and Dan seem to imagine all the other investors have commited at other clubs put together.

Strange kind of agreement perhaps Dave, but I agree with you that the real decider of how you judge Kenwright is Kirkby. I think most of the other criticisms are way overblown if not downright inaccurate.

But obviously if you think that Kirkby will seriously damage the club (I don’t on balance), then of course it makes sense to be against him.

I think that many of the Foreign investors are looking a bit more long term at the TV rights they perceive will happen when the collective deal finally makes way for Clubs doing their own independent deals.

Clubs with world wide appeal will obviously have a lot of bargaining power what with Internet rights as well as TV deals.

Funnily enough, I would think that could make EFC quite attractive to an investor as our fans have dispersed all over the world in the last 30/40 years during Merseyside’s economic woes.

Some will say, why have so many bailed out quickly such as at Pompey or West Ham? I’d just say those people suffered due to the economic slowdown and needed to get their money back for more pressing things. Abramovich is basically a crook who was involved, allegedly, in a £5bn electronic heist of IMF funds (source The Times newspaper) about a decade ago and has looked for respectability and perhaps a way of getting cash out of Russia ever since. As for the Arabs at Man City, who knows? No doubt all will eventually become clearer, but I suspect it’s got some sort of ulterior motive.

No real facts there, Gareth. Sorry, but who really knows the truth about anything? Life is about making judgement calls on things and people from what you can deduce. The one thing we do know, depressingly, is that most humans are inherently selfish, especially where money is involved. Therefore, money is nearly always at the root of it all. DK, Tesco, Green, Earl and BK...... hmmm.