The Mail Bag
Message From the CEO
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I have just been reading an article on the Everton website By our CEO Robert Elstone and was left a little confused! According to what he has said we have spent the money raised from the transfer of Joleon Lescott + an additional £5mil. So let me get this right:
Bilyaletdinov £10M
Distin £5M
Heitinga £6M
So that's £21mil. I heard we received around £24M for the sale of Lescott, now surely if we have spent the money from Lescott's sale + £5M that would be around £29M?!?!
Just wondering how the CEO has come up with these figures, or is it just a way of making fans believe there is heavy investment going on in the squad!
Steven Smith, Posted 09/09/2009 at 12:45:53
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What? How?
Lescott was reported to have cost between £22m and £24m.
Bily £10m + Distin £5m + Johnny £6m = £21m
Obviously these are rough figures but still, I'm a good few million out. Was the 'undisclosed fee' for Lescott less than reported? Or did we pay more than was reported for our new players?
It doesn't add up. Are they including the Garbutt? Jo's wages?
There was me thinking we would have a bit to spend in the January sales! Idiot.
The ongoing extra £3m wages does seem to stack up (3 new players wages minus Lescott's) and I guess has to be a concern & consideration for the club. I suppose it would have been a major factor in (lack of) potential signings all summer (ie trying to keep the wages bill down) and it will be an issue on-going.
One thing that doesn't add up (to me anyway) is where the £30m in transfer fees comes from. I thought Distin was £5m, Heitinga £6.2m, and Bily £9m. That's about £20m - not sure where they are getting £30m from?
In my past I have had the opinion there are totally deluded Everton fans who live in the past and are into conspiracy theories on this site — but maybe they are right!
I am dismayed by Mr Elstone's comments — quote "we have spent £30m". if you look at his statement, Moyes had £5m to spend before the Lescott transfer. No wonder Lescott wanted to move...
How can teams like Fulham outspend us? Not only this summer but last year... it does make me wonder about the business acumen at the club. We have finsihed 5th 2 years running — I remember Spurs doing that and we know what their last 2/3 years have been like.
I have also been a fan of moving stadium but his comments about 'marketing' piss me off. Market the club now - that strategy should not change. We don't need a new stadium to have an effective marketing strategy.
His statements treat football fans like we are dumb illiterate idiots — which we are not. Just when I thought I had some optimism for this season, he has knocked the stuffing out of me.
I'm lowly but surely changing from a proud positive Evertonian to a very pissed off blue!!!
Well excuse me for questioning this latest soundbite from the Goodison ’spin’ machine, but if transfer news in the media is to be believed (I know, but EFC never denied any of the following figures) didn’t we just recieve somewhere in the region of £24m for JL? And didn’t we just purchase 3 players for £6m, £5.5m & £9m?
Even if we add a couple of extra million in for taking the brazilian for an extra year doesn’t this come to less than the monies coming in? I’m pretty sure that the kids we aquired in the summer, to supplement the "Squad" didn’t come to £6m....
And wages? Didn’t we just lose 3 established internationals and bring 3 back in ? That would mean that we have paid our new acquisitions somewhere in the region of £20k/week more than those going out the door....
Uhmmm - some massaging of figures me thinks by our young CEO, in an on going effort to lower our transfer expectations. How thoughtful those in charge of our beloved club are!!!
I wish the club would just forget about the stadium move. In the past I’ve not cared either way about the debate, but can’t they just get their existing house and current loan or loans in order, even if it means pissing off us fans, they are good at doing that anyway. It seems we’ve been wondering where the money goes ever since ToffeeWeb opened its doors, and it’s still no clearer.
"We squeeze things as hard as we can, and then go back and do it again". My arse... We squeeze FANS as hard as we can, perhaps.
Art, Joey and Gary above — you’re all spot on. Shame that others don’t seem to read or understand the sensible posts.
It’s pretty hard to say the numbers don’t add up when we don’t actually have the numbers to start with. The fact that Everton did not deny some of the figures being quoted does not imply some sort of condonation.
In any event, a part of the transfer fees will be conditional so the numbers reported in the press for different transfers will not be comparing "apples with apples". In particular, the Lescott fee was reported as having £2M conditional on appearances etc. We also had to pay a cut to Wolves. I am not sure if the agent’s slice and the player's signing on fee comes off the fees quoted in the press or not. These amounts are likely to be material.
It’s easy to make the numbers add up — there is no conspiracy. We don’t have all the facts and nor should we as these are confidential matters.
The wages bill will have of course increased. Wages have been rising at 16% per year in the Premier League over the last few years. Players like AvdM and Valente were at the end of 4-year contracts so their wages will be at least 33% less than those that replace them, other things being equal. Heitinga was on big money in Spain so will be one of the higher earners at Goodison and Russian clubs pay good wages too. Distin had us over a barrel and his wages are likely similar to Lescott's. Jo has been added to the wage roll this year for the full season as opposed to a half-season. Other players have had their contracts renewed over the last 12 months (Yobo, Rodwell and I think Jags) and this will involve increases.
This is all a bit silly.
What a pity that Evertonians waste so much of their energy and passion in mistrusting an organisation that has done wonders in supporting their manager these last 7 years!
Distin = £5m
Billy = £10m
Heltinga =£6m
Garbutt = £1m (arguments sake)
= £22m (£2m from club)
Then we brought in a few others, which presumably cost money too. Plus there would be the various costs associated with pursuing transfers such as agents’ fees, travel, legal work etc.
= £3m from club?
The figures do seem to add up, at least more or less.
As already stated we do not know any figures, hence the undisclosed fee header. However because the papers say £10m for Bily then it must be so, I mean they got everything else right this transfer window didn’t they?
We can have a go at Billy because he is a bullshitter but I am absolutely sure that if questioned Elstone could produce legal documents confirming the figures involved, unlike his many accusers...."errrr, like.......errmm, you what like......errr, the Mirror said it was this much kidda....errr....like"
No doubt the drip payments for Fellaini will be included in this amount and who knows how much that would be this year, should we ask the Mirror to tell us?
I’d be surprised if we’d handed over anymore than 12mill in total...with the balance being based on appearances and a 20 year drip.
Why is the author so confused?
This is the ’everton way’.
It is impossible to say with certainty how we would have behaved in the transfer window if Lescott hadn’t been sold, but presumably we’d have bought some players - not Distin but I guess Bily and Johnny were on the radar. The puzzle is how these deals took shape. Perhaps, the Lescott money enabled us to aim higher - say Bily instead of Ledley from Cardiff. There was clearly money in bank for Naughton. It still looks very murky and Elstone’s statement doesn’t really help clear it up.
SO £24m DIDNT COME EVERTON’S WAY.
Not sure where this extra £5m has come from that is mentioned in the original post. TV rights maybe?
How I understand it, any deal has to be ’purchased’ with available funds (regardless of whether the deal is paid on drip etc.).
Thus:
Distin £5m plus a three year deal at £2m a year (£6m) = total cost £11m
Bily at £10m transfer and a 5 year deal at perhaps £2m a year (£10m) = £20m
Heitinga at £6m and a 5 year deal for £2m a year salary (thats £4ok a week for those who haven’t worked it out yet) - thats £16m cost.
So the overall expenditure is around £47m over the next 5 yrs.
the initial transfer outlay may well only seem as though its £21m but they have to include all the extras and salary.
So when you include TV money, Lescott sale etc. then it balances just about right...surely?
Somtimes I think that the comment ’He’s got £15m to spend’ is misinterpreted. Perhaps it means he has a total of £15m to spend - and that includes winding up the whole deal - salaries, fees, legal, add-ons etc.etc.
SO £24m DIDNT COME EVERTON’S WAY.
Not sure where this extra £5m has come from that is mentioned in the original post. TV rights maybe?
How I understand it, any deal has to be ’purchased’ with available funds (regardless of whether the deal is paid on drip etc.).
Thus:
Distin £5m plus a three year deal at £2m a year (£6m) = total cost £11m
Bily at £10m transfer and a 5 year deal at perhaps £2m a year (£10m) = £20m
Heitinga at £6m and a 5 year deal for £2m a year salary (thats £4ok a week for those who haven’t worked it out yet) - thats £16m cost.
So the overall expenditure is around £47m over the next 5 yrs.
the initial transfer outlay may well only seem as though its £21m but they have to include all the extras and salary.
So when you include TV money, Lescott sale etc. then it balances just about right...surely?
Somtimes I think that the comment ’He’s got £15m to spend’ is misinterpreted. Perhaps it means he has a total of £15m to spend - and that includes winding up the whole deal - salaries, fees, legal, add-ons etc.etc.
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What about the ones who were released?
It certainly doesn’t stack up.
As for including wages into this £30 million equation..Were Lescott, Jacobsen, VDM, Valente, Castillo etc playing for nothing ??...surely the wages of these outgoing players will cover the wages of those incoming...but that’s too much common sense for some people to understand
IMO Elstone (....more likely Billy & The Bullshitters..) have spun us yet another line and many of you appear to have fallen for it AGAIN....!!
Amen to that sir !
That is ALL this is - just another distraction in a long line to keep us occupied while they twiddle their thumbs praying that Desperation Kirkby happens.
As was (in)famously shouted at the biggest "distraction" of them all, the Samuelson AGM (or "a means to an end" as our Head of PR put it)..."It’s like watchin’ Tommy bloody Cooper here ! Cup, ball, ball, cup !"
Don’t waste your energies and your abacuses folks, it’s just another "Ooooh - look over there !" moment - move along, NOTHING to see here.
I just don’t understand the purpose of him coming out and and telling us this, surely they must have realised this would be taken negatively?
http://bambuser.com/channel/trinitymirrormerseyside/broadcast/261007
When you start off with "a panel of football finance experts" and you spot the self-professed Professor Tommy "Rock On" Cannon on the sofa you just KNOW you’re in for a giggle.
Marvellous stuff.
Season Tickets go on sale = Tell the gullible fans we have loads of cash and I can’t wait to get these exciting players in. Watch them throw their cash at us.
Transfer Window shuts: Tell the gullible fans we spent all of the money we had and some.
Don’t worry, we can throw in the increase in wages from bringing in 3 extra players, regardless of the fact we just lost AVDM, Nuno, Lescott, Castillo, and the Danish right back (I forget his name, although he was announced as being a big signing last year).
Most season ticket holder have been so for many years, I don’t wait to see how much money is in the pot before considering renewing my season ticket.
I follow Everton and will renew it as long as I have the money to do so. It seems a little fickle to see how much we have for transfers before considering buying a season ticket.
To me it seems that the club doesnt have bucket loads of money too spend but would still like too add to the squad in the next transfer window.
Now, I'm not a business man by any stretch of the imagination, but if I knew someone wanted to buy something of mine, and that person had a lot of money from something they had just sold, then I wouldn't think twice about asking over the odds, and should the buyer say "Hey! I cant afford that!" I could quite easily reply, "Screw you mate, I know you just got loads of wonga, pay up or look elsewhere".
However, If the person buying had officially come out and said "We spent all that money, it's gone", then offered me a lower sum for the thing I was selling, my position wouldn't be as strong when negotiating for a price as they could say"We told yo months ago we had no money".
A good move by the CEO in my opinion, letting everyone think we have nothing and are weaker than we are financially, particularly as the current market is ridiculously inflated.
Everyone seems to concentrate on the aspect that we spent the money from Lescott and more (dubious I admit) but he doesnt say we ain't got no more money. I do believe we were told that we had money to buy 3-4 players this summer without the Lescott sale. So as always we are now kept waiting till Xmas to see if we can spend the money we were promised for this summer.
Say No to Kirkby!
Because we rejected JL’s transfer request did we have to pay to break his contract?
How much did we have to pay in agents fees?
How much did we spend in signing on fees?
Why do the OS employ idiots? (the Lescott fee was undisclosed, Elstone never said £30m, he said Lescott money plus £5m in transfers plus £3m in extra wages) the writer/editor takes that and makes £30m. Either he knows the actual fee and has just let slip that we got £22m for Lescott, or he guessed.
Does anyone else think that this has been published on the OS to distract from what was said about the Stadium debate?
Elstone says ’When we get the green light on teh stadium’ - not ’if’...a freudian slip?
He also contradicts Tesco’s previous position that they will NOT be contributing any money to the stadium build - byt categorically stating they will be donating 52 million....I wonder do Tesco shareholders know this...
Thirdly, and I thought - very pertinently ....They can not afford to have fans ’turning their backs on everton’ - but yet he has no problem taking a path that creates a very real possibility of that happening....
and fourthly...I though the whole debate was very amateurish.
He is quoted as saying the £30m figure includes £3m in salaries for a start. How does that involve a spend on transfer funds? How can a retrospective statement of "We have spent..." involve a projected spend on future salaries? Furthermore, there is no recognition of the money saved in salaries by the loss of Lescott, Van Der Meyde, Nuno Valente, Jacobsen and Castillo. At a rough estimate the five of them would be on up to £120-130k per week collectively (quite possibly more since Lescott alone was earning £40k a week) so even if the three new arrivals were all at the £50k a week ceiling of our wage structure this would only be an uplift of £20-30k per week. In other words a net increase in salaries of a maximum of £1.5m per year.
Then there is the fact that we did not get £22m for Lescott as £3m had to go to Wolves in the sell-on clause so we netted £19m. Therefore, how can we invest a further £8m and total £30m when we only got £19m for Lescott? Surely he would contest that we either invested £27m or that we spent £11m on transfers to total the £30m, otherwise the sums simply do not add up. In fact, all of these figures he is quoting are greatly skewed and surprisingly transparent.
My estimations (admittedly using available club information, general media sources and a small amount of reasonable estimation) are as follows.
Lescott sale: +£19m net
Bilyaletdinov: -£10m Heitinga: -£7m Distin: -£5.6m Garbutt: -£1.5m Salary Increase: -£1.5m
Total net spend : £6.6m (maximum)
Not far off Mr Elstone's statement of £8m you might say but each of these transfer amounts are the absolute maximum we will pay for each player, such as Luke Garbutt being £600k with the potential to rise to £1.5m and John Heitinga being £6m with the potential to rise to £7m.
There alone we have just on a further £2m discrepancy and Garbutt is not even quoted on the official site as a transfer so we shouldn't really be including his £1.5m in this equation in the first place! Then there is the fact that the salary representation is (I believe) generous in it's estimation. In all I reckon the net spend is more likely to be in the region of £2.5m to £3m, not the well trumpetted £8m.
Then we do the maths of how many went out of a ridiculously slim first team small squad versus how many came in and we see further misrepresentation (in spite of the fact that the quality has unquestionably improved overall). This happens year on year. We consistently break our transfer records but subsidised but the loss of several for one. This year was the opposite but we still shed players on 'free's or contract expiries meaning we are manpower down.
Strangely, Elstone was really starting to win me over lately as I think he has generally handled himself well and had no choice but to represent the well established wishes of the heirarchy vis a vis Kirkby in order to be appointed into the role. However, this latest bit of 'wolf in vaguely sheep-like wolf's clothing' PR is just so utterly transparent as spin and not even glossed with a decent cover for the manipulation of figures that I wonder whether he really is Wyness' apprentice.
How do I know? Let's just call it intuition.
It's self explanatory: Money in, money out. What's a couple of million. The blues are skint and we have done extremely well to recruit anyone. I for one am glad of what's been achieved in such short space of time in what was a topsy turvy transfer window. Looking forward to good times and watching the new players bed in and thrive.
Secondly, and this is only conjecture on my part, but going on what happened on deadline day I think the wage structure might have been tweaked to cater for JH’s demands.
Dare it be that Elstone actually spoke the truth, about that, he certainly flannelled over the Kirby move, especially when he said Kirby would be paid for by the sale of our two properties, that would be Goodison and, erm, oh yes that plot of land at Bellefield that nobody wants cos you can’t build on it.
Yet again, another thread dedicated to nonsense and fabrication. This is starting to become the trademark of Toffeeweb....
If you come on here, you should know by now you are going to read a wide spectrum of views on any given issue that comes up. So I’d ask that you take a moment to more cearly define which view you are taking exception to, and not tar the entire site and all its contributors with your sweeping generalizations.
As it was, we got a slew of posts coming in yesterday regarading this question of Everton having spent all the Lescott money and then some. I have coralled the comments all on to this one thread. Personally, I’m with you in that I think all the moaning and bellyaching over trying to second-guess the net sum of various transfers is utterly futile... but that is not my point.
An issue arose in the news, fans reacted to what they were told, there was scope aplenty for ambiguity and a lack of clarity, so it is not unreasonable that people will exchange differing perceptions regarding where the truth may lie.
As I say, I agree with you that the basic idea we mere fans can reconstruct the maths underlying this story is simply ridiculous. However, I also accept that some think they can, and were energized to do so. I’d ask that you respect that too and address the issue without the unwanted hyperbole.
Dan Brierly - You slate the site as having posts that ultimately always end at the same place - with everyone stating everything is "*Osman/Hibbert/Kenwright/Moyes (delete as appropriate) fault". Have you read this post? I struggle to find one person blaming any of your four named ’usual suspects’. My question, along no doubt with that of thousands of other Evertonians is about Robert Elstone’s apparent manipulation of statistics to dupe supporters.
Also, can posters please keep Fellaini’s transfer cost out of any equation as that was dealt with when we spent the AJ/McFadden money and ’broke the transfer record’ last year.
Take a look on the official site as to who has come in and gone out. The tally so far (including loan deals in and out) over the last three years, when we already had a notoriously small squad, is 35 out and just 27 in. There’s maths anyone can do. So we have spent how much money to acheive what? Like every Evertonian, I will have to keep praying we can over acheive and this year pray we do not have the devastating injuries of last.
Perhaps this is due to the oft expressed negativity from the editorial team themselves- it sets the mood. For a good example, merely read the news item on the front page with the link to this thread, ’Something doesn’t add up’ and ’...a rather difficult claim to defend or decry....’ It immediately decides the ’claim’ (rather than the ’fact’) needs to be believed or not and that the statement from the CEO, accordingly, need not be believed.
Some of the posts on this thread are effectively calling Elstone a liar. By suggesting his statement ’does not stack up’ is tantamount to doing just that and in order to ease the burden on TW can I suggest that anybody who is convinced that Elstone is a liar does not restrict themselves just to saying so on this site, relatively anonymously, but to say so on the phone to the Club or the official site, while providing their name, address and telephone number.
I am sure Mr Elstone himself would be happy to discuss the matter in those circumstances with anybody who wishes to raise the issue with him..
Mr Elstone made a public statement that few seem to take without question as to it’s veracity. Why do you find it so incredible that Toffeeweb should have such malcontent among the fans represented on its home page? Their saying it is ’difficult to defend or decry’ is factual and impartial. If you read those words they state that jumping to conclusions either way is difficult so where is the bias or negative agenda? As for ’Something doesn’t add up’, that is a link to this entirely pertinent thread submitted by a reader.
Instead of saying ’You’re all not playing fair’ maybe you could choose to engage in the discussion with something of substance or disengage from it. That probably comes across as more abrasive than I intend it to be but I simply do not see where your complaint is.
I’m sure Lyndon and Mike won’t mind me pointing you in the direction of The People’s Forum :-) Paul Gregg himself called us "the most cynical fans on the internet" when he met us as an Everton director, and we were so proud that we were tempted to use it as a tagline for the site :)
You can see negativity anywhere if you look hard enough; a forum like this provides the opportunity for comment that spans the entire spectrum, which many sites do not allow. The negative comments attract positive rebuttal and vice versa.
Dan.... man you are exasperating! I'm telling you to stop making sweeping generalizations and yet there you go again with this "every thread" crap. STOP IT!
“You can work it out yourself,” said the Goodison manager. “Bilyaletdinov, Heitinga and Distin came to roughly £19m give or take a bit, and money we got back for Lescott after we paid Wolves is about £19m.
“We’ve only spent what we have brought in, we haven’t spent any other cash on top of that. That’s what it looks like to me. Times are hard, so I will work to what I can do.”
Tell you what — call me NEGATIVE... cos I don't swallow this shit anymore than Davie does!!!
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1 Posted 09/09/2009 at 11:51:57
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I didn't think any of the other kids cost anything much or that we paid a multi-million fee for Jo's services for a year. Anyone any the wiser? He even quotes the extra wages separately so he's not including those.
Let me be clear, I am happy with who we bought but to claim they have invested ANYTHING more than they received from the Lescott sale doesn't appear to stack up.
I am very happy to be corrected but it still galls me when I consider how much more we could do with a couple of top class players — Moutinho or Defour — sweliing our ranks. THEN our first 11 would be a match for any of the SKY5 home or away.