We were saying almost the same thing. Jo is NOT a lone striker. he needs help up front. His 1st touch is terrible, he needs someone to play along side him. this systwm is not working. Moyes needs to try 4 4 2 and with Neville out, now is the time to do it

The one thing Mr Moyes is consistent about is his indecisiveness, about everything, but particularly his subsitiutions. No wonder we are 2nd from bottom!

From day 1 of the season he has picked negative teams, 1 up front and failed in all games to make positive changes. I even include the 4-0 against the Czech team — Saha scores 2, so he is immediately substituted, what about letting him get his hat-trick??? Again, Saha scores against Wigan and he is taken off and we still play 1 up front.

The 1 up front is finsished. The football we are watching is dire. Yesterday it seemed to me that Moyes had settled for 1-0, then he settles for 1-1 then he just didn’t know what to do when we were 2-1 down...

So what did we get? Just pumping the ball forward — as soon as I saw the starting line-up, I thought, "here we go again" and we all said who hasn’t scored for Fulham — Duff, of course.

Please, please, please wake up Moyes and stop playing predictable, boring football.

I watched the game at a mate's house — we predicted that Moyes would only bring a striker on if we were losing. If we are able to predict Moyes’s tactics then surely opposing managers will be able to do the same.

He is totally obsessed with playing one striker. His tactics are becoming predictable — managers such as Ferguson and Wenger are top managers/coaches because they have shown they can vary their tactics.

I fear that Moyes is becoming far too predictable and cautious. He has moaned in the past about having limited options, yet when he has more options available to him, he doesn’t use them!!!

And he is very quick to criticise the team for not matching Fulham in the 2nd Half. He failed to respond tactically to Hodgson’s change of approach in the 2nd Half. He needs to take a long and hard look at his own responsibility — he picks the team and dictates the tactics. He should be big enough to acknowledge when he gets it wrong. It seems to me that he is starting to believe in his own publicity.

I thought Jo did very well while being constantly fouled without getting anything off the ref the whole game.

The linesman had a habit of flagging players who drifted back from being offside while running away from the Fulham goal. Most annoying!!

Now is the time to move Peanuts into the centre. Bily on the left. We have to stop playing Hoofball.

After 30+ years I am getting fed up and disillusioned with football and Everton Football Club!!!! It is getting embarrassing supporting Everton and as for our Manager... my 10-year-old son could have predicted that team and that result!!!!!

Wasn’t Fellaini Everton’s leading goalscorer last season?

If we badly need a goal then bringing on our leading goalscorer and recond transfer buy seems like a good idea to me.

Especially since Moyes has to treat Yakubu carefully and Vaughan is a waste of space.

I’m worn out by this endlessly horrendous football we play and years of underachieving. When my kids are old enough to be interested in football, I will not be insisting on them becoming Evertonians — why burden them with a lifetime of misery? They can choose for themselves, although I’ll steer them away from that other shower across the park.

Well said Dick, however I would certainly check Jo’s passport. Brazillian, my arse!

Vaughan was a token gesture on the bench, Yak has played 30 mins and the team reverted to the one that did so well last season so the constant harranguing of Moyes’s substitutions is just an easy way to vent after such a disappointing second half.

Neal Kernohan - Its getting embarassing supporting Everton is it? Fifth place last two seasons and the cup final. Go and support another team if you think you’ll get more pride, and maybe look up the word supporter.

When something is broke you fix it, not wait untill it breaks down, in other words when we are playing shite week-in, week-out, do something about it.

I don't want to bring up the usual suspects but how long do we have to wait for Osman to be dropped? He got off with it against Wigan as he should of made his subs at half-time but he waits for us to concede first before changing things, he has no balls to say this is not working. He reaps his credit but at the moment his negative tactics deserve stick.
Finally, Tony, why put Vaughan on the bench if it was a token gesture? The men on the bench are meant to be there to be ready to change the game.

You took the words right out of my mouth... that’s exactly what my son
and I - fancy taking a striker off and not substuting with a striker when he had options on the bench. I love Davey Moyes but sometimes he makes me tear my hair out.

Tony Williams - It’s not a case of constant harranguing of Moyes’s substitutions, I am not jumping on any Moyes Out bandwagon at all. But for goodness sake — if I can predict his tactics then surely so can the manager of the other team.

David Moyes seems quite ready to accept the plaudits when things are going well. He should be brave enough to acknowledge when he has got it wrong. Yesterday we were not beaten by the better team — we were beaten by the better manager.

If you use the same tactics all the time then it’s asking for trouble as sooner or later other managers will work out ways to counter your tactics. Roy Hodgson is an experienced manager and I am sure he didn’t have to spend too much time figuring out Moyes's tactics and working out a startegy to counter them.

In 8 years Moyes has still not installed any style of football to our team. It's all about pressing, forcing set-pieces for our goal threat. In open play, we lack anything near creativity.

The lack of pace in the team is laughable, you can't counter with players who take 5 steps to gain a yard. For all the plaudits Moyes receives, I think he is one lucky son of a gun, but now it's catching up with him.... and I think he knows it, hence some of his comments of late.

For gods sake, is it so bad to play 2 forwards? Moyes will never get a job with the big 4, mayby Celtic is the best he will get. Until then, we are stuck with what I think is the most boring team of my Everton lifetime. LET HIM GO...BRING IN STEVE COPPELL!

Poor players, poor team selection, poor tactics, poor substitutions...generally poor.

Players out of position all over the pitch...a thoroughly depressing state of affairs...Added to the depressing news about Arteta..we’ll be lucky to finish top half this season...

I threw my shoe at the TV.

Steve Coppell, I liked that one, very good.

I’d like to make a few points. Dave Rooney: telling Neal Kernohan to go and support another team isn’t really what it’s all about. Neal like the rest of us is probably smarting from our horrendous start and wants to see us back to winning ways asap.

The team and David Moyes have come in for a lot of stick but David Moyes’ record as Everton manager, while not glittering, is impressive. He has been recognised 3 times by him managerial peers, who know how difficult it is to do what he has done on little resources. He has made us a top 6(ish) side and we have reached an FA Cup final. Finally he has strengthened the squad and increased expectation amongst the fans.

We have started the season in less than impressive style. Should we be a bit more patient with Moyes and the team? Yes of course. Do we have a right to vent and point out where we think he went wrong? Absolutely, and this should not be treated by some as an act of mutiny.

We are/have been missing 3 key players. Arteta - the heart beat of the team, Jagielka - the rock of the defence, Yakubu - the source of many of our goals. That along with Lescott leaving has left us up shit street. Although this is stating the obvious, it should not be ignored. These players are the spine of our team and we cannot do without them.

We have had a poor summer and this was compounded by new players being brought in at the last minute. A bad start to the season along with the style of football we play, our inability to create chances and our insisting on playing key players out of position is mind boggling and has lit the fire of discontent. In the past, at times, Moyes, has got the team playing some great football which has looked to signal the end of hoofball only to see it return all too quickly. However, for many, this has only been an issue after a key defeat or when a winning/cup run has come to an end.

Getting a result against Wigan was probably seen by many to be the catalyst for our season, but did we really think that beating Fulham would be a formality? Although we were shocking in the second half, we have only had one win at Craven cottage in god knows how long.

Many will now feel that the next match in Europe will be the catalyst for a change in the starting line up. This may not necessarily be the case. DM has a formula that has served him well until now and it is a type of football that he will always revert to in times of trouble. 4-5-1 defensive, using tried and tested players, nick a goal and defend the lead.

Then again, is he the only manager who does this? Ask yourself what you would do. Surely he’s feeling the heat. Is now the time to open up and go at opposing teams? As we want to watch attractive attacking football we may say yes, we are supporters with a vested interest in the team doing well. DM on the other had has a job to do. He has to be cautious, his job and his reputation depends on it.

Moyes hasnt made a match winning substitution since .... hmmm... the Wigan match — when was that? Oh yea... the last game.

The game was decided once Neville went off. Anyone who thought that Moyes was going to put Bily on for Pip is off their head. 1-1, away from home, your captain goes off — for David Moyes, this is a time to shut the doors and take what you’ve got, and even though I’ve been critical enough of him in the past to want him out, this was a decision I can’t really argue with.

The tide was starting to turn against us at that point, and home advantage was starting to tell. Nonetheless, he was still bold enough to put the Yak on, which for many would no doubt have been a crazy decision — out for a year, lacking more fitness than usual, fitter, younger guys on the bench out to impress. If he’d gone with Bily at this point and we’d been turned over, and by a side whose only previous goal this season was off Bobby fucking Zamora’s arse, Moyes’s head would have been on a stick. The guy’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.

We looked great for large periods of the first half, so much better than Fulham it was untrue. Hodgson gave his players the kick up the arse they needed at half-time, and we didn’t respond. I’d say this was more directly the problem than substitutions. It was still a real sickener though, and yet more evidence of our inability to make the most of the pre-season period.

The formation is not the problem..

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a 4-5-1 — it’s the personnel David chooses to deploy in that formation that are the problem... especially in midfield.

’And even though I’ve been critical enough of him in the past to want him out, this was a decision I can’t really argue with’
-----------------------

Are you serious?

He replaced a right back in central midfield with another right back... it was utterly bewildering.

Fellaini on for Neville and Bily on for Osman... more balance and better players on the pitch!

The fact that it’s so bloody simple is why it’s so frustrating! But noooooo... lets put a bloody right back in there...

Ciarán, a recent thread covers the issue of versatility, and so I don’t think it’s entirely even handed to say ’He replaced a right back in central midfield..with another right back’.

The thinking seemed to be that Heitinga would stablise things, and Fellaini and the Yak could cause problems at the other end. Although Fellaini can be infuriating, he was outstanding when he came on against Wigan, looking like the real attacking, creative force we’ve all hoped he would be. On the basis of that, although I would have loved to see Bily come on, Fellaini was the better option. And when Yakubu is on the pitch there’s always a chance of a goal. So the ’right back in central midfield’ argument doesn’t account for the the hand Moyes had to play.

Stan - some very good points there and yes Moyes is under pressure, but so are all managers/coaches. 4-5-1 has worked well for him in the past and you referred to it along the lines of a tried and tested formula/formation. However if you keep using the same tactics all the time, sooner or later opposing managers will be able to work out a strategy to counter your tactics.

To be honest, I was disappointed at the Wigan game that he brought Bily on with 5 minutes to go!!! What was the point of that!!! Surely when you name substitutes you should be looking at how you would use them if you needed to/ wished to change tactics or else why put them on the bench if you have no intention of using them?
Had we won yesterday, we would have been level on points with Arsenal. It was clearly too much to expect Moyes to seize the opportunity at 1-0 up at half-time — and go for it in the second half. Arsenal lost 2-4 a bigger defeat — but at least they went for it and could argue that the scoreline didn’t do them justice.

Yet again, Moyes’s cautious tactics snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Frankly I expect more from a 3 times Manager of the Year.

It’s simply bewildering the substitutions Moyes makes. He always replaces a like-for-like player whilst making subs. Never taking the chance to change formation or try something different. Persisting with Osman, Hibbert, and Neville. Moyes is showing a totally inept ability tactically. With opposite teams always exploiting our weaknesses which are there for all to see. 4-5-1 simply isn’t working now. Having a loan striker with no pace. I just don’t get it.

Four players on our bench cost us a combined total of £45 million, that's roughly twice the cost of the entire starting eleven.

Moyse had a complete Weston yesterday.

For me, at no point did the side we had named appear capable of playing on the deck. Those tactics were just not going to be on the table with the XI sent out.

There was no pace in the side, two guys with pace on the bench were not fully fit so were unlikely to be risked as Moyes has a habit of nurturing players back, and the only source of creativity besides Peanut was an untried Russian.

The tactics seemed to revolve around solid defence, hoofball, compete further up the pitch, and threaten from set-pieces. This did the job in the first 45 minutes but once Fulham got their goal (with confidence returning) we were done for.

I saw a similar pattern in the away games against Burnley and Sigma. At home, Arsenal game aside, we were set out to push further up against Wigan and the Sigma 1st leg.

It looks as if the pattern has been laid for home and away games until the following:

– New signings bed in. To me, Johnny will be key. If can get up and down the right flank, then 4-5-1 MIGHT work. IMO, it only works if you have 2 full backs good enough to play in the oppositions half, or, as many posters have suggested, real pace in the side (a la Villa).

– Injuries return. Yak does make us more dangerous around the box — at least he looks as if he might score. Jo inspires little threat when in the Oppo Area and Saha is only deadly when fit. In Yak’s absence, we missed him badly

I suspect we are still 3-4 weeks away from this, and I expect us to produce some more turgid football during this period. Whether we pick up points will depend on the quality of opposition — Wigan and Sigma were poor, Burnley and Fulham (2nd half) were "up for it", and Arsenal just outclassed us totally.

It leaves me slightly depressed and with the suspicion that, this season we will be dependent on our home form for points. For a while at least, our away displays may be back to the sorts of form we showed pre-2008-09

Last season, we seemed to play with less pressure away from home and Arteta’s presence allowed more ball retention generally. Arteta’s injury woes continue to loom large.

Moyes seems to constantly set us up as if we’re playing Real Madrid or Man U every weekend, pack the team with defenders and graft, pray for a header from Cahill to go in and job done. Leave any threat we may have on the bench. That’ll confuse them.

Fulham have ONE good player, and he’s a defender, their first choice goalie is out, we play one target man who isn’t a target man who also happens to thrive on confidence, and that’s our threat?

I feel sorry for Jo, he’s on a hiding to nothing with the crowd. The lad does have skill and guile but we’re pretending he’s Big Dunc and lamping the ball up to him to tussle with defenders. Why am I surprised, we do this to every sodding striker we’ve had under Moyes.

There's three or four threads going on right now with a similar theme, covering Subs, Formation, Talents. It’s obvious we’re getting restless, surely the players must be too?

Can’t we just TRY a change of tactics for our next game please Moyes, can we try telling our skilful player(s) to use their skills, not tell them; see what Yobo does, you lads do that too, if the ball is in the air somewhere above the center circle they can’t score. What’s the worst that can happen? We get beat? Hmmm.

Not too sure of your point though Dave. If they are not up to starting for the first eleven, then it doesn’t matter if they are worth £500 million! It’s quite easy for us to adopt the Football Manager logic, which is that players sat on the bench are in pristine condition, and ready to play. Moyes has the added advantage of seeing the players in training. They simply must not have been ready.

It was a shit result, beaten by a lucky deflection and one moment of magic from Duff. That said though, our goal was offside to begin with. A very poor standard of football from both sides. It was a match that could have gone either way, and was there for the taking. A central midfield of Cahill, Neville and Rodwell is never going to give you much attacking threat through the centre, so Fulham only really had to focus on managing the wings. Confidence is at an all time low, but it was great to see the Yak back on the pitch again. That was the only real positive for me.

I think it's going to be a case of damage limitation until we get Bily & Heitinga bedded in, and Mikky & Jags back to fitness. We need another ’Neville on Ronaldo' moment to give us back some kind of fighting spirit, which is the only thing that compensates for our lack of technical ability. Without that fight in our bellies and best players available, we look like an average side, which isn’t actually wide of the mark.

Seems we are gonna finish somewere this season which is just about right for us... mid-tableish.... 4-5-1 can and does nick the 1-0 wins for us but without our key players we are looking very average. Why on earth do we play FIVE in midfield yet bypass them completely with Hoofball?

I didn't see the game yesterday but was listening to some of it in the car and what I perceived was two poor teams playing a poor excuse for football. We seemed the better side yet once they got their goal the crowd got behind them and we went under the cosh, wobbled and finally lost! Hello Damiem Duff shoots with his fooking left foot — simply keep him on his right side. I dunno, 5 steps backward this season.

In midfield, Jack Rodwell was excellent again yeasterday. He is the only one of our central mids who can take the ball of our backs and do something positive with it (apart from Fellaini). Why can’t Rodwell or Fellaini play our holding role?

Surely we should play Fellaini in the position we bought him to play? Just because he got some glitz & glam scoring a few goals last year, doesn’t mean me should keep playing him up front and not getting him to do the less glamorous work at the back. He causes all sorts of havoc & disruption up front, why can’t we get him to do that and break up the play at the back. We’ve got genuine proven goalscorers in Yak & Saha to get the goals up front this year.

Lastly, I love Tim Cahill but he was awful again yesterday (yes I know he scored). Now that we have options on the bench, there is no reason for Moyes not to drop him for a game.

I have to echo Ciaran’s take on this. It was poor all round. There’s always the risk of this hapening with David Moyes, that’s the downside, and we get it early doors most seasons.

His defensive inclinations are infuriating at times. But I must also say some if the comments on here are glib and pathetic. Sure, Fellaini may have scored goals last season, but he is a DEFENSIVE MIDFIELD PLAYER by repute and to take off our only forward for him is asinine.

I like Joe Yobo. Great guy, great servant. Every so often, great player. But I’m sorry, Distin has only been here 5 mins and he knows how to read the game. Joe just doesn’t. His decision making and positional sense cost us. Then again, why was Yobo playing as the left sided central defender when Distin is left footed. Go figure.

But the underlying thread for all of this is a) our lack of preparedness for ANY season these days, and b) the time it takes us to settle into a footballing frame of mind (usually about 4 months of each season).

Moyes has plenty of goodwill in the bank with me. But he is capable of making massive withdrawals on occasions with his lob-sided team selections, failure to exploit individual strengths, lack of any real cohesion and the perpetual fallback to hoofball.

If we recover in the league this season I will be surprised. We have a run of winnable games in our sights. The next 8 could & should be won. Our standing after 12 games will, I believe, show us the likely end game. Perhaps a bit of success & confidence in the Europa will transfer to the league. Or maybe the exact opposite :)

Grim start.

In the Villa game they were away from home and the score was level. They had Agbonlahor up front on his own with Young and Milner supporting from the wings. With 20 minutes to go O’Neill brought on a striker for a midfielder and a header from this striker led to the winner and 3 points.

We were away from home up and after unfortunately being pegged back had one up front (Jo) suppported (apparently) by Pienaar and Osman. We went behind, took a striker off for a midfielder, then with ten minutes left brought on a striker who has played 30 minutes since November! We came away with nothing.

Dan, the points a really simple one.

I’m sick of hearing people say Moyes would be top draw if he was given the funds. it's abject nonsense. If the players on the bench are worth £45 million, why weren't they starting or brought on earlier? If they are not even good enough to improve on that shite, then why pay all that money for them?

The answer to me is glaringly obvious, send Moyes to a car boot sale and he’ll do fine, but don't let him lose with the credit card in Harrods!

I hate it when you agree with me Alan...It usually means things are very bad..

Those saying Moyes out, get a grip! Yes, he got it wrong against Fulham with his selections, but Moyes will know this better than anybody. I have to admit we looked very negative, especially having two defensive midfielders in a five man midfield, but Craven Cottage is a difficult place to go.

What baffled me like everybody else is why we continue to play Leon Osman out wide when he lacks any pace when we have a £10M Russian international on the bench. Then we have Hibbert at right back when we have a Dutch international with Champions League experience sat on his tush.

Up front we had Jo on his own which is beyond me. We need our two best forwards on the pitch in the future, Saha and Yak, with Cahill behind them. I think that would cause defences all sorts of problems.
The team defo needs a shake up, but let's not call for Moyes’s head, he usually gets it right in the end.

Moyes makes reference today in the press (Daily Post) about how "his" team were out-fought by Fulham...

< He failed to mention that he himself was out-thought by Roy Hodgson...

As the bible says (somewhere near the back)... "Davie Lad, yer half me arse, get yer coat"

James: "Yes, he got it wrong against Fulham with his selections, but Moyes will know this better than anyone."

So then James, if he knows that better than anyone, why does he continue playing people out of position, and keep picking shite players?

James,

Moyes doesn’t seem to see the obvious - and rarely makes a decisive change to a team... Or your suggestion that all will be right is pretty far off the mark..

In fact, the best football we’ve played over the last few years has been stumbled upon by Moyes whenever injuries forced his hand... firstly whenever Cahill broke his foot and Fernandes made us play some joined up football... and last season whenever Hibbert got injured and Neville went to right back.

Moyes does not normally get it right — that’s his biggest downfall... his decision-making is suspect and he rarely learns from a mistake — in fact, he usually repeats it with the same dire consequences until some outside force guides him to make a simple yet effective change.

This also not helped by his unwillingness to be ruthless in his team selections. Normally if a player’s not performing they get dropped... In Moyes's case this rarely happens. Osman has been rubbish for 2 years and still retains a starting place, same goes for Neville in midfield... It’s utterly frustrating.

Moyes has some great managerial talents... he’s also got some of the worst inclinations I’ve seen in football management.

He is the proverbial parson’s egg.

He needs a boot up the hole.

Moyes’s persistence with Osman dumbfounds me. I don’t think he had his worst game for us yesterday, but he gave yet more proof — that was hardly needed to the majority of fans — of his inability to cut it at this level. The oft-repeated ’lack of size’ thing doesn’t wash with me: Zola, for one, was hardly Charles Atlas, and it didn’t stop him regularly beating bigger men and delivering decent balls to team-mates — something that Osman seems singularly incapable of.

One of the things that stuck out for me yesterday was the extent to which Pienaar ALWAYS busts his bollocks to get back and help Baines when required, and invariably pressures his man into an error. I honestly can’t remember seeing Osman ever do this, so my heart goes out to Tony Hibbert, who constantly gets the shitty end of the stick from Evertonians. If he had a player with the vision, commitment, pace and skill of Pienaar working the flank with him I’m sure he’d be much better regarded.

Was it a bit of tactical genius to drop back in the second half and let Fulham bring the game to us? The game was ours to take and, like so many before, we gave it away.

Neville’s foul to set up the 1st was foolish — hardly the play of the great leader so many claim that he is. Baines's decision to allow the famously left-footed Duff to cut inside and find his left foot was poor. Add those simple errors to our selection gaffes and our poor tactics and it begins to look like a long slog of a season. Hope I’m wrong but the tunnel light seems dim at the moment.

It will still be the same crap next week because Moyes won’t learn cause Moyes knows best! I can’t take much more of his crap!

There are a few strange decisions by Moyes that we now just accept because we are just used to it, but really when you think about it they are just so odd:

Playing Neville in midfield and keeping Hibbert at right back. Hibbert is just terrible.

Osman... Might as well have 10 men 90% of the time than have Ossie in there. He goes missing for large chunks or all of the match, especially when we are behind or things aren’t going well.

A good percentage of Evertonians see these two as problem areas, but they seem to be more or less ever presents when they are fit!?! I know these are things that have been talked to death, but just once it’d be nice if Moyes just did the obvious and ditched the obvious weak links. It may all go pear shaped, but at least we’d know then that its been tried and tested.

There just seems to be so many blindingly obvious better ways of doing things. I’m no expert and up until now I’ve always said "Trust Moyes, he knows a dam sight more than me" but I must admit I’m starting to have the odd doubt. I’m not quite calling for his head yet like some are, but I really wish he’d change his seemingly stubborn ways from time to time!

I can’t 100% agree with some of the contributors assessments regarding our players: Osman has some nice touches/footwork and plays with some attacking intelligence, although consistent world-beater he plainly isn’t.

Plus Jo can’t be as bad as some of you make out, definitely a confidence player and still hasn’t had enough time in the Prem to fully adjust from Russia. £18M-odd after all wasn’t he? Had one hell of a reputation over there previously!

However, I do feel that changes should be made — try Heitinga at RB (Hibbert shouldn’t have his place in the team ’secure’, nor Osman for the same reason) or use Heitinga as Defensive Midfield — all depends on the formation I guess?

I think we should look at other options to the 4-5-1.... Maybe 4-4-2 Diamond with Bily and Pienaar interchanging on the wings (or even with the AMC slot also). Try Fellaini there as AMC until Arteta gets back? The DM position would be covered by Heitinga as mentioned or see if Rodwell is up to it. I’d hope he would be, looks a really composed player with the ball.

For the 2 FC’s, play Yak with Cahill/Saha as an aerial threat. I agree we should be more positive mentality-wise and also with the substitutions. Bily should’ve got a crack at Fulham, we are crying out for some pace and it can easily ’scare’ defenders into making rash challenges etc.

Interested to hear anyone’s thoughts on any of these ideas?