The Mail Bag
Of Moyes and his sycophants
Comments (47)
Sometimes one is so bemused by the actions of David Moyes that one has to resort to theological-mystical hogwash in order to explain his tactical choices. Has Moyes got Glenn Hoddle's astrologers stashed up somewhere? Did he bring in some African shamans instead when he failed to sign M'bia? Did Bilyaletdinov not play because of the ominous cosmic alignment of Saturn and Jupiter? I am tempted to write to the KGB/FSB and have them tap Moyes's phone-line. I am desperate to know what makes this man tick, for what happened at Craven Cottage on Sunday was nothing less than a disgrace.
The first rule of warfare, according to Chairman Mao, is never to wage a war on the premisses set by your enemy. The second rule is to exploit the opportunity to wreak maximal amount of havoc, once your enemy shows signs of weakness.
The strategic genius of Guus Hiddink demonstrated the utility of these revolutionary tactics against the Dutch last year. The Dutch came out expecting to dominate the game, but Guud Hiddink's boys anticipated their every move. And once the Dutch started showing signs of weariness, the Russian decided to set the agenda. It was like watching a Siberian bear tear to pieces its prey. Once it had its fangs inside, it would not let go until all the entrails had been torn out. What we witnessed was the greatest piece of massacre since Hannibal marched across the Alps and violated the Roman pansies at Cannae.
With a small dose of fortitude, we could have killed Fulham off on Saturday. For the second half, I expected to see both Bilyaletdinov and Vaughan come on. One capable of holding the ball and getting our passing game going, the other a spirited lunatic desperate prove his worth. What we got instead was the most unimaginative bunch of central midfielders ever on the retreat, and thus granting Fulham the opportunity to take the game to our side of the park.
Everybody could see what was going on. Effeminate timidity came into play when boldness was called for. One did not need to be a tactical genius in order to see through the game plan of Moyes. Everybody could see what Roy Hodgson saw.
At the end of the day I am a patient man. For seven long years I have stood by Moyes. But unlike some of the sycophantic Blues here, I do not believe in his quasi-papal infallibility.
I know that we are not in a position to compete with the likes of Manchester United, Chelsea, and Arsenal. But is it too much to ask for some flair and boldness from our team?
Dominic Bobadilla, Posted 15/09/2009 at 17:13:49
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Originally my response was going to be "yeah, what he said - minus the bears and dictators" and then James waded in.
Whilst I’m sure Domonic can write an eloquent retort to James himself, doesn’t James’ response tick all of what is frustrating about this site at times (and seemingly putting Mao’s first rule of warfare into practice)? Having read MK’s article on this site’s negativity and followed most of the replies, I didn’t feel that I could add much. With the flagrant plug for 1878sos in an earlier letter, perhaps there is a challenger to TW’s crown where there will be a lack of "negative" articles and/or responses, where everyone strives to get the best out of the club we all love without rocking the boat in any way. Perhaps James could explain how this could be done and how by patting ourselves on the back for our achievements whilst blindly ignoring our failings we will move on or simply sustain momentum? Or maybe I’m just being "negative".
Whilst I’m sure Domonic can write an eloquent retort to James himself, doesn’t James’ response tick all of what is frustrating about this site at times (and seemingly putting Mao’s first rule of warfare into practice)? Having read MK’s article on this site’s negativity and followed most of the replies, I didn’t feel that I could add much. With the flagrant plug for 1878sos in an earlier letter, perhaps there is a challenger to TW’s crown where there will be a lack of "negative" articles and/or responses, where everyone strives to get the best out of the club we all love without rocking the boat in any way. Perhaps James could explain how this could be done and how by patting ourselves on the back for our achievements whilst blindly ignoring our failings we will move on or simply sustain momentum? Or maybe I’m just being "negative".
I still don’t get this obsession with knowing Moyes’ players better than he does. Moyes stated last season something along the lines of "James Vaughan has been unluck but we still want him to have a future in the game". For me that was an acknowledgement that his prospects for a career at Everton are over as his injuries have either deprived him of key time to develop or taken his pace, fitness and strength away (or both). As for Bilyandinov, if we are 1-0 up at half time I would consider it a massive gamble to bring on an untried ’winger’ who has only had two days training with the squad and, in the process, unpset our most potent combination (Pienaar and and Baines).
Moyes knows himself he fucked up in this one. If the team was playing well and creating chances all well and good to persist with and no need to make changes, but we were awful and under the cosh and once again he left it to late making changes.
I think you mean Sun Tzu????
’Where were you on the Fiorentina night? ’
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Jesus H Corbett...
Are we now celebrating defeats?
How fucking pathetic can you get.
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Jesus H Corbett...
Are we now celebrating defeats?
How fucking pathetic can you get.
For fucks sake we got beat to a deflected goal.
Talk about over reaction.
We had a bad start to the season last year and I don’t remember anyone complaining in May.
Talk about over reaction.
We had a bad start to the season last year and I don’t remember anyone complaining in May.
We got beat because we were poor Gareth.
People have a right to complain...because some people have the sense to realise that just because something happened last year - doesn’t mean it’ll happen this year.
People have a right to complain...because some people have the sense to realise that just because something happened last year - doesn’t mean it’ll happen this year.
Yes the Fulham performance was woefull and the midfield devoid of flair but hopefully things will improve when all are fit.When we’re bad we’re bad but one has to remember that Moyes has to choose from one of the smallest squads in the top flight .I think we have to bear in mind that he is not given the propper tools to do his job.
when all are fit he’ll be able to pick a not so boring midfield from this lot.
MIDFIELDERS
7 Diniyar Bilyaletdinov
10 Mikel Arteta
17 Tim Cahill
19 Dan Gosling .
20 Steven Pienaar
25 Marouane Fellaini
26 Jack Rodwell
I think it’s a case of Moyes cutting his cloth accordingly although his negativity in big cup games and some of his substitutions do baffle me.I notice some have been calling for the inclusion of Bilyaletdinov.Surly Moyes has seen enough of him in training and deems him not PL fit.Thats good enough for me.
when all are fit he’ll be able to pick a not so boring midfield from this lot.
MIDFIELDERS
7 Diniyar Bilyaletdinov
10 Mikel Arteta
17 Tim Cahill
19 Dan Gosling .
20 Steven Pienaar
25 Marouane Fellaini
26 Jack Rodwell
I think it’s a case of Moyes cutting his cloth accordingly although his negativity in big cup games and some of his substitutions do baffle me.I notice some have been calling for the inclusion of Bilyaletdinov.Surly Moyes has seen enough of him in training and deems him not PL fit.Thats good enough for me.
Ciaran, we got beat because we had a poor second half in which Fulham scored a deflected goal.
Or maybe its because Moyes, Hibbert & Osman are all shit???
Time for some perspective me thinks.
Or maybe its because Moyes, Hibbert & Osman are all shit???
Time for some perspective me thinks.
I like moyes but his 90 minute management is piss poor at the best of times. I think this is were we need to start judging him more as you can prepare the team all you like but if you send them out there in the wrong order it was all for no good.
As dom said in this article something moyes doesn’t seem to get is that attack can be the best type of defence. If like dom said moyes had come out after half time and put a unknown billy on and a energetic(something we had none of bar cahill) vaughan it would have threw roy hodgson and his team talk right out the window. It would have gave them something to think of before they went on the attack to get the game back. Instead we were predictable again and played right into their hands. When they got their first goal, lucky as it was, and moyes sat back and did NOTHING, their was only ever going to be one winner.
Also something that moyes never looks into is that when we are winning sometimes it is not a attacking move to go two up front(depending on who you put up there)! This is especially true when playing teams that are not as good as ours ie at the weekend. We always make predictable defensive subs when ahead and just reinforce what we already have on the pitch. If we would have gone two upfront at the weekend(taking jo off, bringing vaughan on and pushing cahill up completely) it would have changed their defensive mindset completely and they would not have been able to commit so many people to their attacks for fear of been caught on the counter(everton counter, HA). Plus having them two up top would have given us maximum tenacity and maximum energy to really harass their back line.
Moyes never seems to think of how to trouble the opposition, he rather continues to try and solve our problems...
As dom said in this article something moyes doesn’t seem to get is that attack can be the best type of defence. If like dom said moyes had come out after half time and put a unknown billy on and a energetic(something we had none of bar cahill) vaughan it would have threw roy hodgson and his team talk right out the window. It would have gave them something to think of before they went on the attack to get the game back. Instead we were predictable again and played right into their hands. When they got their first goal, lucky as it was, and moyes sat back and did NOTHING, their was only ever going to be one winner.
Also something that moyes never looks into is that when we are winning sometimes it is not a attacking move to go two up front(depending on who you put up there)! This is especially true when playing teams that are not as good as ours ie at the weekend. We always make predictable defensive subs when ahead and just reinforce what we already have on the pitch. If we would have gone two upfront at the weekend(taking jo off, bringing vaughan on and pushing cahill up completely) it would have changed their defensive mindset completely and they would not have been able to commit so many people to their attacks for fear of been caught on the counter(everton counter, HA). Plus having them two up top would have given us maximum tenacity and maximum energy to really harass their back line.
Moyes never seems to think of how to trouble the opposition, he rather continues to try and solve our problems...
I some of our boys and andy murray having a kick about.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/8257692.stm
I think we might need to sign andy up on a free!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/tennis/8257692.stm
I think we might need to sign andy up on a free!
Those who are so quick to quote statistics, conveniently forgetting there are plenty of statistics that don’t show Moyes in a good light, are somewhat missing the point. Yes Moyes has done a good job overall in his time at Goodison Park, but most of the time the quality of football played is poor. Every season we see glimpses of how well Moyes teams can play on their day, but Moyes is unable to get them to play to this standard consistently. Moyes is the longest serving manager of Everton never to have won any silverware & it’s hard to see how he will unless this issue is addressed.
Gareth we got beat by an inferior team in a game we had control of.
Its a game we should have won with our personnel, even with Hibbo and Ossy who would both get into Fulhams side anyway.
Thats why people are upset.
If our manager is the inspirational leader that we think (thought) he is then we should hammer poor teams like them and at least give the better teams a game. Our core squad is better than all but the top 6 and we should expect better than that shite on sunday!
Its a game we should have won with our personnel, even with Hibbo and Ossy who would both get into Fulhams side anyway.
Thats why people are upset.
If our manager is the inspirational leader that we think (thought) he is then we should hammer poor teams like them and at least give the better teams a game. Our core squad is better than all but the top 6 and we should expect better than that shite on sunday!
It’s confusing. I am lost as to how people can defend what is going on.
We played total shite on Sunday - FFS I saw Pienaar chase the ball when a poor Fulham corner had worked its way back to their keeper, he then looked around and saw that he was on his own. To say he was fucked off was an understatement.
I think fans have the right to be fucked off. We expect more and believe EFC should be at the top end of the table. We expect to go to Fulham and basically "give it a go". IMO we did not lose to a "deflected shot", once the 2nd half started their first goal was always going to come and once they scored well you just knew the 2nd was just waiting.
Moyes got it wrong. Big time. Playing players out of position, I mean how much fucking longer is Osman going to play on the right and Jo up front - on his own. Then add two defensive central midfield players. Fuck you can just go on and on. I mean Hibbo looks shit scared to pass beyond 4 feet, I mean shit scared. His moral has got to be fucked.
So as I said, we have a right to moan because this crap is going on and on. If you are at the game you will see that players do not have a clue as to what they are doing - just hoof the fucking ball to Jo and then just wait till it comes back (it wont be long).
We played total shite on Sunday - FFS I saw Pienaar chase the ball when a poor Fulham corner had worked its way back to their keeper, he then looked around and saw that he was on his own. To say he was fucked off was an understatement.
I think fans have the right to be fucked off. We expect more and believe EFC should be at the top end of the table. We expect to go to Fulham and basically "give it a go". IMO we did not lose to a "deflected shot", once the 2nd half started their first goal was always going to come and once they scored well you just knew the 2nd was just waiting.
Moyes got it wrong. Big time. Playing players out of position, I mean how much fucking longer is Osman going to play on the right and Jo up front - on his own. Then add two defensive central midfield players. Fuck you can just go on and on. I mean Hibbo looks shit scared to pass beyond 4 feet, I mean shit scared. His moral has got to be fucked.
So as I said, we have a right to moan because this crap is going on and on. If you are at the game you will see that players do not have a clue as to what they are doing - just hoof the fucking ball to Jo and then just wait till it comes back (it wont be long).
David, McKitt- hell’s bollocks!! Osman’s even out of his depth having a kick-about with Andy Murray!
I’m in agreement with Lewis that Moyes could do with waking up to the possibility of seeing attack as the best form of defence. I’m not sure putting JV on would have been the best move on Sunday, but I absolutely take your point. If we’d been playing one of the big guns on Sunday, lord knows what could have happened. Two pannings in a few weeks would be too much.
To go ever so slightly away from the main point of the thread, fitness is still clearly an issue. Because our squad is so small, it seems as if Moyes regards pre-season as a necessary evil, where he’s more concerned about players coming through unscathed than he is getting them into shape for premiership action. I’m in no way excusing his tactical errors on Sunday, or suggesting that the players have still had pina coladas in their hands during the first few games, but we just do not have the bite that you would expect of a David Moyes side right now. I also have doubts whether Moyes would deliver the goods if he were able to- as one poster put it- ’shop at Harrods’, but he sure as shit would be in a better position to be judged if he had even a touch more squad depth. All academic, of course.
I’m in agreement with Lewis that Moyes could do with waking up to the possibility of seeing attack as the best form of defence. I’m not sure putting JV on would have been the best move on Sunday, but I absolutely take your point. If we’d been playing one of the big guns on Sunday, lord knows what could have happened. Two pannings in a few weeks would be too much.
To go ever so slightly away from the main point of the thread, fitness is still clearly an issue. Because our squad is so small, it seems as if Moyes regards pre-season as a necessary evil, where he’s more concerned about players coming through unscathed than he is getting them into shape for premiership action. I’m in no way excusing his tactical errors on Sunday, or suggesting that the players have still had pina coladas in their hands during the first few games, but we just do not have the bite that you would expect of a David Moyes side right now. I also have doubts whether Moyes would deliver the goods if he were able to- as one poster put it- ’shop at Harrods’, but he sure as shit would be in a better position to be judged if he had even a touch more squad depth. All academic, of course.
Mike, I don’t think it is a case of defending what is going in, we all know we have yet again had a piss poor start to a season due to the inefficiency of the pre-season and the lack of actual money to buy players.
The people who are "having a go" at the more vocal posters is a reaction to their posts and the way they have put their comments across more than defending the indefensible.
Dominic, you say you are a patient man yet are seemingly foaming at the mouth after 4 games into a 38 game season, not really backing up your statement there.
The people who are "having a go" at the more vocal posters is a reaction to their posts and the way they have put their comments across more than defending the indefensible.
Dominic, you say you are a patient man yet are seemingly foaming at the mouth after 4 games into a 38 game season, not really backing up your statement there.
Doesn’t the earlier question of THE Fiorentina night say it all; one memorable footballing performance in 7 years. And all the other references on other threads of getting to the Cup final seem to suggest some sort of achievement of all we are after.
"What we witnessed was the greatest piece of massacre since Hannibal marched across the Alps and violated the Roman pansies at Cannae."
Lets not get carried away here. Football is a game and the Romans were masters of europe long after they crushed hannibal that was until the barbarians from Berlin came a calling :) Its sad to say or think but our limited squad/club it seems is finally unable to punch above our weight anymore, and Moyes, well, I think the Lescott saga has drained his passion and his intentions for this season and clearly the squad are feeling it. The fresh injection of new players was clearly needed for the fulham game and one can only think Moyes lost the plot there continuing for the entire game with Osman and Hibbert.
Lets not get carried away here. Football is a game and the Romans were masters of europe long after they crushed hannibal that was until the barbarians from Berlin came a calling :) Its sad to say or think but our limited squad/club it seems is finally unable to punch above our weight anymore, and Moyes, well, I think the Lescott saga has drained his passion and his intentions for this season and clearly the squad are feeling it. The fresh injection of new players was clearly needed for the fulham game and one can only think Moyes lost the plot there continuing for the entire game with Osman and Hibbert.
The emergency of Rooney, the Ferguson goal and the performance against the Mancs with Goodison rocking that night, Carsley Derby, running riot against Liverpool 3-0, eliminating them in the FA CUP and Gosling Goal, the last gasp win against Arsenal in the rain, the piece of jewellery against Larissa, Cahill’s overhead kick and equalizer against Chelsea are all shitty moments IMO
Did I miss something? I recollect us beating Fiorentina 2-0. Sure, we had a shit night at the office over there, but we made up for it at Goodison and should have won by more against a team that made the CL in Italy.
The title of the original article is precisely the sort of thing that should be taken off this site. Blatantly confrontational & stupid.
Moyes has his fans and his detractors. Why do peope have to be characterised as sycophants, or fucking apologists or whatever else is the word du jour. James Cadwaladr’s comments are spot on with their accuracy and perspective.
No, for ne that doesn’t totally excuse the crass, defeatist nature of some of our football under Moyes. But it does put the bigger picture in context compared to the preceding 10 years. Have you forgotten our perpetual battles with relegation? we were a fucked up club going nowehere rapidly. Moyes has rescued this club’s digity and respect.
Doesn’t mean he can get away with anything and never answer to the fans. Without a doubt, the quality of our football, over many seasons, has been dreadful, almost painful on occasions. But come on, it hasn’t ALWAYS been this way. We do play rather well on many occasions.
At times like these, and let’s face it there’s an uncanny regularity fo such times under David Moyes (i.e. shocking start to the season), I wonder if he should continue or if he has become too comfortable. And therein is the rub. Many would argue that it’s recisely because he has become so much part of the club that we have consistently performed well in terms of league position.
Others, rightly in my view, argue that he hasn’t really progressed us in terms of our technical ability and playing style. We have played some ecellent games under Moyes. But we seem almost pre-destined rto start every season abysmally, to always opt for risk-free football, although paradoxically there’s great risk in hoofing balls to a lone striker with 3 defenders up his arse.
A reappraisal of Moyes’ achievements is not unfair at this stage. When all’s said & done the man is getting paid almost £4m a year. That puts him near he top of the tree. I did actually woder a littled while back whether Tony Mowbray, with a resolute defensive coach, might be worth a punt. Seems we Evertonians want to have our cake and eat it. We don’t want great football at the expene of success. And we don’t ewant success without playing liek Barcelona.
One things for sure. We won’t be playing like Barcelona under David Moyes. So, given the constraints that we have, how do we get what we apparently want?
The title of the original article is precisely the sort of thing that should be taken off this site. Blatantly confrontational & stupid.
Moyes has his fans and his detractors. Why do peope have to be characterised as sycophants, or fucking apologists or whatever else is the word du jour. James Cadwaladr’s comments are spot on with their accuracy and perspective.
No, for ne that doesn’t totally excuse the crass, defeatist nature of some of our football under Moyes. But it does put the bigger picture in context compared to the preceding 10 years. Have you forgotten our perpetual battles with relegation? we were a fucked up club going nowehere rapidly. Moyes has rescued this club’s digity and respect.
Doesn’t mean he can get away with anything and never answer to the fans. Without a doubt, the quality of our football, over many seasons, has been dreadful, almost painful on occasions. But come on, it hasn’t ALWAYS been this way. We do play rather well on many occasions.
At times like these, and let’s face it there’s an uncanny regularity fo such times under David Moyes (i.e. shocking start to the season), I wonder if he should continue or if he has become too comfortable. And therein is the rub. Many would argue that it’s recisely because he has become so much part of the club that we have consistently performed well in terms of league position.
Others, rightly in my view, argue that he hasn’t really progressed us in terms of our technical ability and playing style. We have played some ecellent games under Moyes. But we seem almost pre-destined rto start every season abysmally, to always opt for risk-free football, although paradoxically there’s great risk in hoofing balls to a lone striker with 3 defenders up his arse.
A reappraisal of Moyes’ achievements is not unfair at this stage. When all’s said & done the man is getting paid almost £4m a year. That puts him near he top of the tree. I did actually woder a littled while back whether Tony Mowbray, with a resolute defensive coach, might be worth a punt. Seems we Evertonians want to have our cake and eat it. We don’t want great football at the expene of success. And we don’t ewant success without playing liek Barcelona.
One things for sure. We won’t be playing like Barcelona under David Moyes. So, given the constraints that we have, how do we get what we apparently want?
Stefan, whats that ? 8 more memorable moments in 7 years. Spoilt really arent we?
John, lets not start this. There are obviously more than 8 memorable moments in 7 years, I mean it took less than a minute to get a memorable moment in Moyes’s first game in charge. Who can forgot the 7-1 crushing of Sunderland and....ermm...and you know the one....the one where....errmmmm.......oh look a squirrel
Dominic, I guess in the end, you have point. It’s just a shame we have to wade through all the self-indulgent bullshit and flowery fucking language and analogies to get to it. Stick to the point fella, it makes you seem less of a twat.
We won the match but got ejected from the competition..
I don’t consider that a victory.
I don’t consider that a victory.
Alan.
In response to your last pragraph.
We get what we want mate by playing football.
Not hoofing it from one end to the other.
You see Alan. I don’t think anyone would mind defeat here and there it’s the manner in which we get defeated.
No one expects us to be Barcelona or Madrid.
Just to play footy the way it should be played.
You get the posters on here churning out excuses that we don’t have the type of players to play joined up footy.
But how fucking hard is it to pass a ball to someone in a shirt the same colour as yours along the ground.
To make it worse, they practice doing it every day.
In response to your last pragraph.
We get what we want mate by playing football.
Not hoofing it from one end to the other.
You see Alan. I don’t think anyone would mind defeat here and there it’s the manner in which we get defeated.
No one expects us to be Barcelona or Madrid.
Just to play footy the way it should be played.
You get the posters on here churning out excuses that we don’t have the type of players to play joined up footy.
But how fucking hard is it to pass a ball to someone in a shirt the same colour as yours along the ground.
To make it worse, they practice doing it every day.
Dave, apparantly it is very hard for our players.
A good post there, Alan & an excellent response from Dave.
Often people make reference to "the next level" & how we’ll never reach it without X billion pounds, etc. But it strikes me that the way we can step up to "the next level" is by getting the ball down & playing some proper football. We know the players are capable of it as occasionally it happens, but it’s Moyes job to ensure that we perform in that manner consistently. One of my concerns is that if we don’t progress then, comparatively, we will regress because other clubs are intent on overtaking us in their own quest for that "next level".
Often people make reference to "the next level" & how we’ll never reach it without X billion pounds, etc. But it strikes me that the way we can step up to "the next level" is by getting the ball down & playing some proper football. We know the players are capable of it as occasionally it happens, but it’s Moyes job to ensure that we perform in that manner consistently. One of my concerns is that if we don’t progress then, comparatively, we will regress because other clubs are intent on overtaking us in their own quest for that "next level".
Alan Kirwan
totally agree with all you say.
I would only add Moyes and the players look shot and deflated.
My suspicion is there’s unrest upstairs.
However as you rightly say Moyesy is paid handsomely to motivate the players and not let that negativity transmit to the team.
I get the feeling although I might be wrong that he sometimes wants to stick 2 fingers up at the board by saying that’s what it could be like if you dont back we with more players.
Having said that I thought his team selection and substitutions gainst a very poor Fulham side also devoid of any confidence were totally bemusing.
I know he’s the manager and we’re not but it’s about time he started acting like the manager we know he can be.
totally agree with all you say.
I would only add Moyes and the players look shot and deflated.
My suspicion is there’s unrest upstairs.
However as you rightly say Moyesy is paid handsomely to motivate the players and not let that negativity transmit to the team.
I get the feeling although I might be wrong that he sometimes wants to stick 2 fingers up at the board by saying that’s what it could be like if you dont back we with more players.
Having said that I thought his team selection and substitutions gainst a very poor Fulham side also devoid of any confidence were totally bemusing.
I know he’s the manager and we’re not but it’s about time he started acting like the manager we know he can be.
i’m sick of everybody bigging moyes up just because he got to cup final and league placings. Yes good achievements - but Millwall, West Ham have done so during moyes reign and even postmouth have won it ! in terms of league - great - but doesn’t take away we are a one man team - no arteta and we play rubbish football. Also, throwing in the cups - we’ve been knocked out usually within first or second rounds of both League and FA Cups and been knocked out of Europe at first hurdle I think 3 times - the people claiming moyes great because of his cup run etc don’t seem to ever mention the crap displays we’ve usually had in the cups !
For what reason do those who oppose David Moyes beleive that those who are for him are blind to his faults? I’m firmly in the pro camp, but I was shaking my head at The Cottage on Sunday with his like for like subs. I do wish he could be more adventurous as in the past that mentality has shown us play our best football, and best run of results.
Maybe though, without Arteta we cannot play that way. A replacement would have been nice.
I’d point out though, when the team came through the tunnel at The Cottage the team was given a good round of applause, and increased with cheers when Moyes came out last. The team were not applauded when they went back in at full time, but neither were they or the manager bood.
But then this site has always been the favoured mouth peice of knee jerk reactionists.
Maybe though, without Arteta we cannot play that way. A replacement would have been nice.
I’d point out though, when the team came through the tunnel at The Cottage the team was given a good round of applause, and increased with cheers when Moyes came out last. The team were not applauded when they went back in at full time, but neither were they or the manager bood.
But then this site has always been the favoured mouth peice of knee jerk reactionists.
Nick, I for one actually still back moyes and I simply think he puts results before perfomances. When he has everybody fit he plays football. However, I just think most who back Moyes are blind to his faults, you obviously are not and perhaps I have it wrong but that’s my view presently.
Peter,
I think most pro Moyes people know his faults, but live with them. That is why when he shows no change in tactics with substitutions, we don’t rant and rave.
His pros far outway his cons yet those against the guy can only see his faults and nothing else.
If you ask yourself, for what reason is there a staunch Moyes support the answers are obvious.
People knock being ’best of the rest’ but how the hell can anyone compete against the top 4 over 38 games? Well he tries his best and keeps coming up short by 9 points on average. To make up those 9 points, lets go look at BK instead.
I think most pro Moyes people know his faults, but live with them. That is why when he shows no change in tactics with substitutions, we don’t rant and rave.
His pros far outway his cons yet those against the guy can only see his faults and nothing else.
If you ask yourself, for what reason is there a staunch Moyes support the answers are obvious.
People knock being ’best of the rest’ but how the hell can anyone compete against the top 4 over 38 games? Well he tries his best and keeps coming up short by 9 points on average. To make up those 9 points, lets go look at BK instead.
The way i see it - Moyes fucked up - his tactics were as transparent as the window I sit next to in work and the result was shambolic.
I am complaining because I have the right to complain. I have the right to complain because I paid my hard earned cash to sit and watch failure.
Let me put this another way. I am not calling for Moyes head - nor am I knocking him as a competent manager - far from it. i would hate to see him leave...but he got Fulham all wrong and he knows it.
If I bought an apple from Tesco and got it home only to find it was bruised or rotten...i would be able to get my money back. If I watch everton and they give 50% and can’t play football..then how come I cant demand a refund?
Fair enough, if they give 100% and still get beat to a deflected goal (which Duff’s wasnt!) then fair enough. But to play like they did against Fulham (and Arsenal and Burnley) is ludicrous and sometimes apologies should be served.
By the way what is this shite about over reaction because we got beat by a deflected goal...forgive me but the deflected goal drew fulham level. Duff’s goal, the winning goal, wasn’t deflected and should have been sorted had Baines not had to worry about the man running behind him...YOBO should have covered the fact that duff cut inside but thats another story.
I am complaining because I have the right to complain. I have the right to complain because I paid my hard earned cash to sit and watch failure.
Let me put this another way. I am not calling for Moyes head - nor am I knocking him as a competent manager - far from it. i would hate to see him leave...but he got Fulham all wrong and he knows it.
If I bought an apple from Tesco and got it home only to find it was bruised or rotten...i would be able to get my money back. If I watch everton and they give 50% and can’t play football..then how come I cant demand a refund?
Fair enough, if they give 100% and still get beat to a deflected goal (which Duff’s wasnt!) then fair enough. But to play like they did against Fulham (and Arsenal and Burnley) is ludicrous and sometimes apologies should be served.
By the way what is this shite about over reaction because we got beat by a deflected goal...forgive me but the deflected goal drew fulham level. Duff’s goal, the winning goal, wasn’t deflected and should have been sorted had Baines not had to worry about the man running behind him...YOBO should have covered the fact that duff cut inside but thats another story.
The way i see it - Moyes fucked up - his tactics were as transparent as the window I sit next to in work and the result was shambolic.
I am complaining because I have the right to complain. I have the right to complain because I paid my hard earned cash to sit and watch failure.
Let me put this another way. I am not calling for Moyes head - nor am I knocking him as a competent manager - far from it. i would hate to see him leave...but he got Fulham all wrong and he knows it.
If I bought an apple from Tesco and got it home only to find it was bruised or rotten...i would be able to get my money back. If I watch everton and they give 50% and can’t play football..then how come I cant demand a refund?
Fair enough, if they give 100% and still get beat to a deflected goal (which Duff’s wasnt!) then fair enough. But to play like they did against Fulham (and Arsenal and Burnley) is ludicrous and sometimes apologies should be served.
By the way what is this shite about over reaction because we got beat by a deflected goal...forgive me but the deflected goal drew fulham level. Duff’s goal, the winning goal, wasn’t deflected and should have been sorted had Baines not had to worry about the man running behind him...YOBO should have covered the fact that duff cut inside but thats another story.
I am complaining because I have the right to complain. I have the right to complain because I paid my hard earned cash to sit and watch failure.
Let me put this another way. I am not calling for Moyes head - nor am I knocking him as a competent manager - far from it. i would hate to see him leave...but he got Fulham all wrong and he knows it.
If I bought an apple from Tesco and got it home only to find it was bruised or rotten...i would be able to get my money back. If I watch everton and they give 50% and can’t play football..then how come I cant demand a refund?
Fair enough, if they give 100% and still get beat to a deflected goal (which Duff’s wasnt!) then fair enough. But to play like they did against Fulham (and Arsenal and Burnley) is ludicrous and sometimes apologies should be served.
By the way what is this shite about over reaction because we got beat by a deflected goal...forgive me but the deflected goal drew fulham level. Duff’s goal, the winning goal, wasn’t deflected and should have been sorted had Baines not had to worry about the man running behind him...YOBO should have covered the fact that duff cut inside but thats another story.
Nick, I agree mostly - but if you are against Moyes you want to concentrate on his faults. However, I disagree we are best with rest - I would say Spurs have been for last few years - whatever their league position has been. They’ve also won something in that time. Granted however, they have had financial backing.
However, a real great manager - as a lot of pro Moyes camp say he is - think 5th is best we should do. We’ve come 4th before so it shows it can be done. I think if wenger had managed us for 7 years we’d be in top four. Comparing moyes to wenger, then moyes is miles behind although I believe most Moyes pro camp and probably you would disagree. Teams abroad such as Villareal have done wonders without investment. Just because we’re best of the rest doesn’t make moyes a great manager.
However, a real great manager - as a lot of pro Moyes camp say he is - think 5th is best we should do. We’ve come 4th before so it shows it can be done. I think if wenger had managed us for 7 years we’d be in top four. Comparing moyes to wenger, then moyes is miles behind although I believe most Moyes pro camp and probably you would disagree. Teams abroad such as Villareal have done wonders without investment. Just because we’re best of the rest doesn’t make moyes a great manager.
9 points is a hell of a lot also mate. Considering our usual points per season, it would take us another 6 games to accrue 9 points.
I am neither pro- nor anti- Moyes, I am por-Everton. Moyes has done a good job in his 7 1/2 years, but the quality of football is generally still poor, despite a noticeable improvement in the quality of the squad over the years. I don’t want to see Moyes leave just yet, but I do want him to get the message from supporters that Evertonians expect a decent quality of football - although judging by some of the posts I’m starting to wonder. The team are capable - we’ve all seen that - it’s down to Moyes to sort it out. Only Catterick has been manager for longer than Moyes & he more than justified his longevity. Moyes is starting to remind me of a latter-day Gordon Lee in his emphasis on results over quality of football. But what puzzles me is why anybody thinks playing badly is going to lead to success.
Looking more closely at your stats re: points behing Nick
Average behind 4th place over last 3 years is actually 10 points. Meaning we would need 11 points to get in top 4. So we would have to turn 4 losses into 4 wins - that’s a hell of a lot to do and would usually take us another 7 games (based on accruing 60 points ordinarily) ~ approx 5th of a season !
Average behind 4th place over last 3 years is actually 10 points. Meaning we would need 11 points to get in top 4. So we would have to turn 4 losses into 4 wins - that’s a hell of a lot to do and would usually take us another 7 games (based on accruing 60 points ordinarily) ~ approx 5th of a season !
Hey Peter,
Its a tricky one being best of the rest and what that means. We don’t have chapions league millions, so we don’t get the players who due to their skill will only go to champions league teams, and the large sqauds that go with it.
So being best of the rest doesn’t mean Moyes is a great manager, he’s beating every team who is on a level playing field competition wise. So for me, he’s doing everything that is being asked, and fingers crossed can break the top 4 which would be amazing given our funding.
Would Arsene Wegner have us qualify for the CL more than Moyes? Perhaps so. But its the same with the managers as with the players. Why would a world class manager go to anyone outside the top four. Ok Sven did, we have our pool of managers and Moyes is at the top.
Would I swap Moyes for Hiddink tomorrow? No. Hiddink is better, but Moyes deserves to take Everton to HIS end conclusion.
I do though think Moyes has everything to take him into those eschelons of great managers. Hopefully that will be with Everton.
Its a tricky one being best of the rest and what that means. We don’t have chapions league millions, so we don’t get the players who due to their skill will only go to champions league teams, and the large sqauds that go with it.
So being best of the rest doesn’t mean Moyes is a great manager, he’s beating every team who is on a level playing field competition wise. So for me, he’s doing everything that is being asked, and fingers crossed can break the top 4 which would be amazing given our funding.
Would Arsene Wegner have us qualify for the CL more than Moyes? Perhaps so. But its the same with the managers as with the players. Why would a world class manager go to anyone outside the top four. Ok Sven did, we have our pool of managers and Moyes is at the top.
Would I swap Moyes for Hiddink tomorrow? No. Hiddink is better, but Moyes deserves to take Everton to HIS end conclusion.
I do though think Moyes has everything to take him into those eschelons of great managers. Hopefully that will be with Everton.
Dominic Bobadilla, Berliner, reminiscent of una solera barata, refers to supporters of Moyes on the site as sycophants.
This means servile flatterers. Gracias Don Dom.
No doubt you side with Ciarán suggesting that the victory against Fiorentina on that memorable Goodison night was as that of King Pyrrhus against the Romans at Heraclea. The vast majority of Evertonians remember that night with great affection.
For myself, I don’t like what is going on right now, but to support a manager, or a player, is not to be uncritical. And if , as you say, you have been patient for seven years, you are either a fool or have to wait a little longer.
This means servile flatterers. Gracias Don Dom.
No doubt you side with Ciarán suggesting that the victory against Fiorentina on that memorable Goodison night was as that of King Pyrrhus against the Romans at Heraclea. The vast majority of Evertonians remember that night with great affection.
For myself, I don’t like what is going on right now, but to support a manager, or a player, is not to be uncritical. And if , as you say, you have been patient for seven years, you are either a fool or have to wait a little longer.
Keith
I can only assume you were not out in Florence, we were fucken hammered pall, time and again they ripped us apart and we were very lucky indeed to get out of there without conceding a cricket score.
Trust me when I tell you their dominance over there was overwhelmingly superior to our dominance over here
We saved face, very nearly got lucky, but lets not try to rewrite history by pretending we were somehow superior, the agg score flattered us and we still lost
I can only assume you were not out in Florence, we were fucken hammered pall, time and again they ripped us apart and we were very lucky indeed to get out of there without conceding a cricket score.
Trust me when I tell you their dominance over there was overwhelmingly superior to our dominance over here
We saved face, very nearly got lucky, but lets not try to rewrite history by pretending we were somehow superior, the agg score flattered us and we still lost
Dave
No - I wasn’t there, and so cannot comment on what you say happened, from your point of view.
As I said, the ’vast majority of Evertonians’ - perhaps I should have said at Goodison Park that night, and probably many more, remember the match as a victory. The tie was lost on a penalty shoot out.
Rewriting history? Not me.
No - I wasn’t there, and so cannot comment on what you say happened, from your point of view.
As I said, the ’vast majority of Evertonians’ - perhaps I should have said at Goodison Park that night, and probably many more, remember the match as a victory. The tie was lost on a penalty shoot out.
Rewriting history? Not me.
Nick, Wenger may not be able to get us into the CL places either - but I bet we’d be playing football to get to that "best of the rest" spot. Moyes isn’t doing all that’s asked of him, because many Evertonians are asking for his team to get the ball down & play football. We may no longer be the School of Science, but it’d be nice if our players looked as though they’d had some kind of schooling, football-wise.
Moyes is owed nothing by Everton or Evertonians, I respect what he has acheived - albeit in a largely style-less manner, but he is the longest serving Everton manager not to have won any silverware & is second only to Catterick in terms of longevity. What’s worrying is that he just doesn’t look like he can get his team to play decent football for more than a few matches each season & so I just can’t see where that piece of silverware is going to come from.
With Moyes in charge I fear we will be safe & stable, but at best we’ll be nearly men. Let’s hope he now goes & proves me wrong!
Fiorentina, yes. Not Juventus. Not AC Milan. A team that had just found its way back to the Serie A. The Italians were without their key player, Adrian Mutu, that night. They still did their job, did they not? And we Evertonians are supposed to celebrate this "triumph" in the 1/8-finals of the UEFA Cup?
Notwithstanding the valid point about the quality, sense and style of our performances at various times under Moyes (and ALWAYS in the first 3 months of a season), I’m wondering what it really is that fans are expecting, or more relevantly, think it is not unreasonable to expect, from a team with our available resources.
By resources, I’m talking specifically about fan-base and revenue, which ranks Everton approx half way up/down the EPL.
I’m curious whether, with that reality in mind, our actual league achievements are deemed acceptable and it’s only the style of our play that rankles. Or do some people think we should both be playing far better football AND finishing top 4 or winning cup(s).
And if so, why?
By resources, I’m talking specifically about fan-base and revenue, which ranks Everton approx half way up/down the EPL.
I’m curious whether, with that reality in mind, our actual league achievements are deemed acceptable and it’s only the style of our play that rankles. Or do some people think we should both be playing far better football AND finishing top 4 or winning cup(s).
And if so, why?
I agree with James Cad, Alan ’Chilled Rose’ Kirwan and Jay ’Grassy Knoll’ Harris ( only joking fellas ) that peple have short mmories. Moyes has performed miracles in his time at the Club.
My only gripes would be the style of football some of the time, not all of it, and the bizarre substitutions too late in the game. I also think he has a mental block against the Sky 4 at times, but would you rather that or be a Newcastle, Villa, West Ham, Leeds etc who have all spent fortunes and done worse?
Nothing is ever perfect, but I still believe on the pitch progress is being made, albeit slowly. If that makes me a Sycophant then so be it!
My only gripes would be the style of football some of the time, not all of it, and the bizarre substitutions too late in the game. I also think he has a mental block against the Sky 4 at times, but would you rather that or be a Newcastle, Villa, West Ham, Leeds etc who have all spent fortunes and done worse?
Nothing is ever perfect, but I still believe on the pitch progress is being made, albeit slowly. If that makes me a Sycophant then so be it!
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1 Posted 16/09/2009 at 05:34:28
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Where were you on the Fiorentina night?
What Moyes has done for the club in his time has been remarkable. I agree we have had a piss poor start but after 4 games isnt the time to be questioning him really. If it is still the case in December then maybe yopu have a point
You call yourself a patient man and have stood by him for 7 years....I should think so given what he has done in that time.