The Mail Bag
Are we being “Had”?
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No one is happier than me about last nights result, especially when you live amongst Newcastle and Sunderland fans. However, have things gone too far with the current arrangements for these competitions?
How can teams like Hull and, indeed, most of the rest of the Premier League be allowed to get away with fielding teams that are far from their strongest in the Carling Cup and FA Cup?
Their sole intention seems to be to survive in the Premier League for another (or their first season)? If the League Cup/FA Cup means so little to them now, then why the hell do they enter for it? Does obligation dictate? Is it worth their while to enter most of the reserves/kids because even if they lose, at least it covers their expenses?
Despite their despatch from the Carling Cup last night, are Phil Brown and the Hull board disappointed? I doubt it... "that's that nonsense out the way, now lets get on with the real business of surviving in the Premier League". What sort of message does that send to the Hull fans who turned up last night hoping to see their team win?
I do not believe for one moment that the English Premier League is the best. I go for skilful passing, choosing to whom the ball should be fed, and keeping the ball on the ground. The Spanish and Italian leagues are, for me, the best in terms of skill and ability. I have always believed that the teams struggling in those leagues would comfortably cope with the English Premier League.
Birmingham, Bolton, Portsmouth, Wigan, Blackburn, et al. Apart from us and about 5 others, that's it. The foreign players must be thinking to themselves, "what the hell is this all about?" the possibility of picking up an injury on a wet night in Scunthorpe, Doncaster, wherever!!!
I am a massive fan of the FA Cup, that meant everything to me when I was a kid... but I feel cheated, wronged, and utterly despondent regarding the current arrangements.
Last night was a travesty, a lazy acceptance of defeat by certain clubs, the casual insousiance of finishing last, an undisguised agreement of quiet failure in certain competitions in order to pursue the Holy Grail, pathetic survival to finish anywhere above 18th position and call it success.
Life surely has more to offer than that?
John Brennan, Posted 24/09/2009 at 13:53:36
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The club [Hull] can then offer the supporters decent local football at the top level.After two or three seasons you establish your club in the Premier League (Wigan for example) and scouts start bringing players to you.
Sooner or later, your club becomes a mid-table outfit and your playing staff is improoving all the time... I think you get the picture. If the club wins a second-rate cup and then gets into the Europa League next season but sacrifices the Premier League then it's all for nothing.
The League Cup is only there for a Europa League place and this can be be a poisoned chalice.
Remove the European place and give it to league placings. Then either re-structure the silly cup for non-Premier League teams. Perhaps offering a play-off place or something as the ultimate prize.
If we are to play in it, I would make it the sole preserve of fringe and youth players. Wenger has it spot on. Excellent match practice for his best kids against good opposition.
I also used to love the FA Cup, but times change. I’d always like to be at Wembley in the final. But for me it’s league then Europe. And if we're not in the CL then it’s the Europa League. There are good teams in it and I want us to be at the Hamburg Arena next May for the final. Don’t give a shit who it’s against so long as we win, but it would be nice if it was a team with pedigree.
As for the best league. I broadly agree. The Sky 4 have shown their mettle and stand above most. But the quality of the rest is technically higher in Spain & Italy. That said, I do actually think Everton are getting the hang of the European game & would not be surprised in the least to see us progress this season.
I agree that La Liga is overall of a technically superior standard but I don’t know if you can say that about Serie A at the moment.
It all went out with the emergence of the Premier League, and the money that goes with it. Add for the top teams the additional riches of the ludicrously-monikered "Champions League" and all clubs set their priorities accordingly.
To the accountants, finishing 4th in the Prem and getting to the semis of the Champions League is better than winning the Prem and failing to make the group stages (assuming you had to qualify as a previous 3/4 place finisher in the Prem).
To the fans, views would no doubt differ, but I’d take the second option.
The money isn’t there in the FA Cup, less so the League Cup. There is no rule to say you have to play your strongest team (and who determines that anyway). If they are registered as professionals and not cup-tied, they are eligible. If you tried to introduce such a rule, clubs would simply withdraw, or worse, deliberately lose if compelled to play.
I admire Wenger’s stance. He’ll play the fringe / youth players, even if they get hammered in the final by a full strength Utd, Chelsea, whoever. I bet a lot of Gooner’s wish he’d scrub that policy though!
Football has taken it’s path. One that seems irreversible - despite the predictions that the impact of the credit crunch would have on the big (but heavily indebted) teams. And whilst the various FAs in Europe, UEFA and FIFA, refuse to take a multi-lateral stance, it will continue.
I’m beginning to shift on this, I had no time for this trophy, or the Europa Cup, I felt they were both kinda consolation prizes, but the sons and daughters that have always been part of our group now have kids of their own; taking kids to the game has always been a drain on finances, never more so than today, so the reduced prices at these games represent their only opportunity of seeing their heroes.
I don't bother with either of these competitions myself, but my neighbours kids are still buzzing at our recent Europa Cup win.
I think it’s the problem of Hull, we should be over the moon about a 4-0 away win no matter who we play against.
Believe me, regardless who gets to the final and whatever team got them there, if Everton are one of them we would sell our allocation twice over, and be over the moon if we won.
If you put one of Everton, Spurs or Villa in Italy they would qualify for Champs League footy easily. Would probably snatch 3rd or 4th in Spain too!
Actually, we're gonna get 3rd or 4th in England this season anyway. so it doesn't matter does it!!
I wish you were right about the strength of the Premier League — but have Everton ever beaten a team from Italy or Spain?
It would be nice to see the English Europa League clubs start to dominate that competition but it just hasn’t happened. Hopefully we will fix that this season — but Villa have already been ejected and I don’t see Fulham doing that well in the Europa League (although City and Spurs would likely do well had they qualified).
I think we will see a top 8 emerge in the PL this season. The second 4 is City, Spurs, Everton and Villa. If all 4 were playing in Spain or Italy then one of them would likely break the top 4 in both those leagues. But I don’t think you could say any one of them would do it, only the strongest of that group in a particular season is up to it.
I'm talking more about strength in depth. Take the 7th best team in Spain or Italy and put them in the Premier League. They would struggle to even make the top 10. Take the 7th best team from England (this season I mean as I don't believe Fulham will get there again) and they would have a great chance of finishing top 4 in Spain or Italy.
As for the Europa League, apart from us losing on pens and Boro getting beat in the final, how many clubs actually think it worthwhile playing their strongest teams? When there is more financial incentive in the Europa League, you will see English teams getting to the semis and final!
Also, the last 4 seasons before Fulham, the 7th placed teams were Blackburn, Bolton, Newcastle and Boro, none of these teams would have a chance of finishing in the top 4 either.
Anybody on here honestly think Fulham are currently the 7th strongest team in the country just cause that's were they finished last season?
But back to original argument, I think it is up to the club and the manager who they play whether it's a weakend team or kids or the strongest 11, it's their right and with squad sizes in the Prem these days its a good excuse to give 2nd stringers 1st team footy.
From a footballing point of view wouldnt like us to do what Hull did or worse what Vila did last year when they sacrificed a game to go out of Uefa Cup, as winning breeds confidence whereas losing creates a mentality that is hard to shake.
But John - "in order to pursue the Holy Grail, pathetic survival to finish anywhere above 18th position and call it success"?? Be careful what you say there. Never, ever underestimate how important this is. Ever met anyone whose team was relegated? Bet you have. You might know some very old Evertonians who remember. You don’t want to meet any young ones.
Fulham did have a fantastic season to finish 7th. But they finished 7th before certain teams spent tens of millions of pounds.
But going back to the original point, people are talking about all the changes Hull made, but we made 5 changes from the weekend, still have 4 players out injured or on loan, yet the teamsheet looked very strong to me. Maybe it's just we have a squad where we can now make a few changes yet still look a very good team!! Or am I getting carried away?
To many teams — no, to all teams — Prem survival comes first, that magic 40 points once reached means you can change your emphasis on cups and the like.
As for the strongest league, who knows? We can only guess, the Spanish and Italian sides look technically better than ours but it’s easier to be that way when you haven’t got blokes who are built like brick shithouses on steroids closing you down. I’ve seen a fair few Spanish games live and the pace and physicality are miles off ours, put Stoke in there and they would either do well or get banned.
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1 Posted 24/09/2009 at 21:00:15
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If they would have put out a full strength team last night, and then picked up a couple of injuries to key players, what has already become a struggle for them would have got a whole lot worse, you can’t really blame them and other teams in their position.