Err... 2-2 v Fiorentina? Sorry to be a pedant but, on the night to which I think you refer, the score was 2-0 in our favour. Okay, aggregate score was 2-2. extra time, penalties. By all accounts, a great European night at Goodison.

On to my second point: "couldn't put two passes together"? That's not the impression I got watching the game. It was highly competitive, almost every pass was contested, neither side was given the space (by the other) to play open, expansive footy. In the end, it was a right royal ding-dong English football game (have you read Ken Buckley's excellent report?). Not pretty... but we had scored goals enough to win and the best policy was to defend that lead at all costs.

We are hard top watch at home, I agree, but top come away with a win in a game like that was an excellent achievement. Some have said it was lucky... how was it lucky? A superb strike by Saha. No luck involved, just pure instinctive skill and perfectly directed power. Pretty mush the same for Danny's sterling effort, although you could perhaps argue he was a touch fortunate to have a second bite of the cherry, although, if he had not hit it so hard with one foot the first time, it would not have come back to him for that fierce strike with his other foot that truly fizzed into the net.

Now, talking about luck, how lucky were those Benfica goals...?

Micheal shame on you!! Right old English ding dong? What I saw was one team playing football and the other team hoofing!! West Ham cut us apart like a soft turkey only for poor finishing to save us, and if you enjoy this type of football then even more shame on you!!

Tell me this — why can’t highly paid professionals pass the ball more than twice? Remember international footballers at that?

I hate watching Everton, I hate the excuses of injures no money etc, for me as a fan I realize we will never win anything without real money; however, I will not stand and pay good money to watch a bunch of so-called stars kick the ball as long and as far as they can like a bunch of pub players!!

From a managers point of view its is all about results Sean, Ask Gareth Southgate or even big Phil Scolari.
failure to get results will get any manager sacked, just as producing results will see him richly rewarded.

This is the Prem mate, its not about skill, its about excitement, I’m not sure if that’s a good or a bad thing, but I am sure it’s box office.

The average British fan wants 100mph football, non stop goalmouth action and it appears the rest of the world are beginning to follow, how else could you explain the EPL’s world wide appeal ?

Our crowds are different too,visit a Barcelona or Real Madrid home game, take in the atmosphere, their fans want, even expect, what you are looking for, then compare that to a Saturday at . . say the Britannia stadium, 30,000 passionate Stoke fans will be on their feet shaking their fists and demanding not more skill, but more effort . . .then we wonder why the Spaniards ability to play with the ball embarrasses even our top teams.

Read Tony Marsh’s recent "I’m on board article" you can almost hear the penny dropping, English teams do NOT play good football, the appreciation of skill has been replaced by the clamour for action.

Of course theres ALWAYS an exception, but I personally know lifelong Gooners who look back to a trophy winning bunch of hoofers across their back four with a sort of dewy eyed nostalgia.

Easey jet do some great deals to Barcelona for the skill seekers.
The EPL has taken a very different direction, its a soap opera, sky are satisfying the demand for non stop drama, Moaning managers, Snarling players, even our referees our fucken celebrities.

Rightly or wrongly and whether the purist like it or not, Joe public just cant get enough of it

The game at West Ham was almost entirely devoid of the artistry you’re looking for, but if you didn’t find it exciting, perhaps you are watching the wrong league.

"The excuses for injuries do not add up"

Here we go again. Why not? Why don’t you think not having your only creative players in the team does not have a mitigating factor on the style of football we play? It’s not rocket science is it? You have Arteta and Pienaar in your team you will have more cohesion, as they want the ball and will move it about or drive forward with it. It’s a simple concept, the midfield we have at the moment aren’t good enough, nothing more, nothing less. Most people can see that but some, like yourself can’t see further than your "Blame Moyes" mentality, no matter what the situation is.

The players confidence is low and some are probably playing with knocks, we know Louis was so I will gladly take an ugly 2-1 win until we get out vreative players back.

As Dave above says, the only team that consistently play good football are Arsenal, have you watched Man Ure or Chavski of late, dire to say the least and in terms of injuries, again you only have to look at our neighbours for the last couple of months without Stevie Me and Ladyboy, they have won 1, lost 6 and drew 2 pf their last 9 (I think) just because of two injuries but we can’t use that as an excuse according to you, as it should factor into it!!!!! The mind boggles sometimes.

Sacrifice performance for results? mmmm.

Let me take you back to early 60s when Johnnie Carey had assembled a team of ball players that included Alex Young. Win lose or draw we were treated to the best this game can offer. After match drinks were happy affairs with everyone recalling the many moments of magic we had just seen.

There was a feeling that success was just around the corner for this wonderful team but John Moores was not prepared to wait. In a taxi he sacked football purist Carey for pragmatic Harry Catterick. Results and honours flowed and credit for that is due to Harry and Mr Moores.

Nonetheless, I believe there are many like myself who still dream of what a wonderous future there might have been had Johnnie Carey been given just a bit more time.

The preference of Results or Performance will be decided by each individual fan. I am very nostalgic for the Carey era yet at the same time I am also aware that in this dog eat dog world.there is no place for the really beautiful game.

From Everton’s point of view taking account of our parlous financial situation with all things considered, and punching above our weight etc etc it cannot be denied that our results have on the whole, justified the means but do they satisfy the soul.

Dave Wilson
The Premier League is not about skill its about excitement . etc etc Its box office.

Well Dave our gates are falling - why is that do you think?

Tony Marsh is right about the quality of football played in the Premiership basically it is rubbish.

My views on the West Ham game are that the team of international footballers we put out could not play basic football. We could not pass to a team mate, we could not beat an opponent , we could not do anything remotely associated with skill. What those internationals could do was boot it up in the air.
We snapped up 2 chances and defended with some character which is an improvement in itself - but it was damn ugly to watch.
Now if a performance like that excites an everton fan then imagine what just a little bit of football would do and please remember that this West Ham side are poor and with a defence you could drive a bus through.

Watching sundays performance was as much a chore as taking out the rubbish bags to the bin. As I said yesterday our play was just garbage.

I will happily take the 3 points but cannot accept the quality of play.

If a football team plays good football results will follow. You can still defend and tackle and put the effort in but when you have the ball it should be treated like a friend not like something that will explode at your feet to be booted as far away as possible.

Come on, Dick! ( maybe I should re-phrase that, but never mind )

Back to the early 60’s? Nearly 50 years ago? The world is a completely different place and football is played at twice the speed by uber-athletes who have their blood tested every week rather than down 6 pints of Worthington Double Diamond in the Winslow after training.

Dave Wilson is spot on. The public want action, they want speed, the whole world loves the cut and thrust of the Premier League. I went to West Ham on Sunday and we were battered for long periods of the game, the atmosphere was fantastic and although I only saw us play one really good flowing move in the whole game I could not say I did not leave having been entertained, even if it was in a manner that I would not have ideally chosen.

Scott Parker was far and away the most inventive player on the pitch, but our two best ones for that are injured. We did what we had to do, we rode our luck a bit and we got the result which is the most important thing. You only have tolook to Tyneside to a club whose fans demanded Keeganesque football all the time. 15 years of spunking money on forwards and midfielders with little attention paid to defenders or defending and they won absloutely nothing and got relegated.

Every now and then you will find somebody with the ability to combine results with open football. Very rare breed. Wenger for example, but even he is trophyless for approaching 5 years now and others like Guardiola end up at Clubs like Barca with enormous resources to utilise. A few weeks ago some people on here were clamouring for the appointment of Martinez at Wigan after a win against Chelsea which has been followed by a 4-0 hammering at Portsmouth and a home draw with Fulham.

It’s almost impossible to get attractive play and consistent results ( just ask Mourinho ) so you have a choice of results or open football. Moyes is a results getter and that suits me fine, although I’d love him to have the resources to try and do both.

I will post this again as people on here seem to like ahving the same discussions over and over again so I will make the same point again to contradict it.

Passing, flowing football generally follows a team that is confident and winning - we currently aren’t in this situation so the players are less confident on the ball and tend to get rid of it quicker. This isn’t an Everton pattern its a general pattern.
People mention Fiorentina - but there are plenty of more recent examples to games when we have played really nice football and succesfully. The difference is that the team where confident and winning games.
Sometimes, you need to get the results first and the football will flow.

As an aside, people who saw West Ham playing football & Everton hoofing it have selective memories that only include the last 20 mins when we were defending our lead to ge tthe 3 points.

Prior to that both sides knocked the ball around at the back fairly comfortably but it kept breaking down in the midfield due to the competitiveness and closing down of both sides and the fussy free-kick giving of the referee at times.

In fact just check the overall possession West Ham 52% Everton 48% hardly the stats fo a hoofball against pretty passing game is it!

Its funny you should say that Sean, because one of my last memories of Everton playing good football was against Florentina but that was alson one of my last memories when Arteta, Piennar, Cahill, Yakubu, Osmen and Carsley were all in the side fully fit. A team that was nicley balanced with attacking threat, crreativity and goals, but also a nice balance of defensive cover.

The team now has no Arteta no Piennar no Osmen no Carsley an off form Cahill played out of position and a half fit rusty Yakubu.

Paul Joy, "our gates are falling, Why do you think ? "

Well actually they’re not Paul, we got our biggest league attendance for ages against wolves and our average league attendance is already considerabley healthier than last season (around 37,000)

"Tony Marsh is right about the quality of the football played in the Premier League, basically it's rubbish"
Well yes, he is right, but most of us could have told him that years ago... Like I said, Quality has been replaced by frantic 100MPH footy.

You might have found watching Sunday's win as much of a chore as putting the bin bags out Paul, but I was amongst thousands of Evertonians who stayed behind after Sunday's match and gave the team a standing ovation until the last player left the pitch, so an awful lot of us must have enjoyed it.

Tony Williams, I agree with what you say, but it's not that our midfield isn't good enough is it... it's that they aren't players like Pienaar or Arteta who are going to try and create something out of nothing or go on a run etc.

We’ve got Rodwell who is awesome but is basically a defensive midfielder and is also supposed to be a centre back;

Heitinga, who again is a center back/ right back;

Fellaini who is not really an attacking player really, well he wasn't brought to be but has been pushed forward because of injuries; Tim Cahill, who is playing out of position and is best at finishing off moves, not starting them!

Then you have Gosling who is trying but is probably not quite ready yet.

The only player who is attack-minded is Bilyaletdinov and he suspended at the moment! So of course it makes a difference if certain players are out injured, you just cant say otherwise we have basically replaced our 2 most creative players with defenders!! How anyone can say that isn't going to make a difference is confusing to me!

I hope your not suggesting it was only luck that gave Benfica victory. Or are you being comedic as well as pedantic?

Excellent debate topic Sean; my tupence worth.

Not sure its 100mph goalmouth action, that English supporters crave, rather its success and the win at any cost ethos typiefied by thse who can afford it, (City, Chelsea, Utd et al), buying all and sundry, and by those who cant (us, Stoke, Hull etc...), by working to our greatest strengths, or rather, minimising our opponents greatest threats, which results in the many facets of the non-purists game; longballs, long throw-ins, one up front, closed down spaces, increased physicality etc... The Premier League, (a misnomer if ever their was one), is also extremely unforgiving with many managers dismissed before Christmas every season, and players who can’t cut it in the few opportunities given relegated back to the confines of the ever expanding ’squad’. This pressure and the psychology that accompanies it makes for the blood and guts style that is on show every single week in the top flight of our national sport and only every so often do you find a dissenter in the ranks. Arsene Wenger is probably the greatest purveyor of style over substance and look at the stick he has come under in recent years from the Arsenal faithful for lack of a trophy despite consistently providing the highest form of entertaining football in our division! Tony Mowbrays West Brom were also such dissenters last season and when they played us at Goodison I sat their bemused how a team who played such a skillful, entertaining and joined-up game could be heading out of the league. Then as the game wore in it became clear; they were crap at finishing and pretty ordinary at defending which led me to conlude that it dosen’t really matter how you dress up your style; you’re only as strong as your weakest link, unfortunately due to many numerous reasons which have been well documented on this site our team and Club are sufferring from an abundance of them at present. The only realistic thing any of us can do is grit our teeth, hang on and hope we live to see a ’school of science’ utopia winning trophies again. Today though that seems quite a long way off but after our recent from i’ll settle for 3 hard-earned points away at the hammers and more breathing time to recover our lines before the game at United.

As an aside, has anyone else noticed that we’re actually slightly better off than at the same time lst season (same points but marginally better goal difference), with our arguably improved squad on last season is there any takers on 5th and a Cup Final come May?

On a comparison of the teams played last season/this season....we’re not better off...we’re 5 points down.

Fully agree and I have been on about the same subject ad nauseum... I played at a decent level and I am ashamed at the lack of ability shown so far this season by ’so-called’ pro footballers wearing EFC shirts...

Every pro player should be able to control and pass well... great players should make the difference in craft and finishing. EFC play Sunday pub league football with ’hoofball’ and effort to compensate for lack of ability.

Even though we have had injuries to key players all season, it does not excuse the fact that we are without doubt the worst side in the league to watch from a purely footballing point of view. Every player on the books should be able to perform the basic skills but I truly do not know what our coaches are doing to improve our team.

I have seen skillful players in virtually all the pro leagues so where are we going wrong ????

Football is supposed to be an entertainment and the way Arsenal's youngsters play is indicative of the gap between the best and the worst teams... why cant we find a few classy kids who have ball control and pace?

The only one we did find ended up leaving probably because he had the ambition we as a club lack.

I’ve mentioned it before. My little lads team couldn’t put 2 passes togethor before the new manager took over. Now the same players play like a mini version of Arsenal, because the manager coaches them to play that way. They played a cup game on Saturday, and were drawn against a team who are in their league, they ended up winning the game 10 - 1playing some great football. The point what I’m trying to make, is if a manager can train a group of kids to string several passes togethor, why can’t a professional coach, who earns a fortune, coach a team of professional footballers to do the same?

Re: Dave Wilson, firstly the box office that you talk about isn’t about the Premier League — it’s about the Sky 4. How many millions of people would tune into Everton v Stoke eh dave? Box office my arse!

As for the 100 mph exciting football, what league have you been watching? You certainly haven't been to many Everton games this year! The whole point of this is that I believe Moyes's is ethos is to get points and fuck the entertainment, and I believe the players are scared to play the joined-up stuff because of Moyes's constant ranting on the sideline.

Someone mentioned West Brom playing great footy but got relegated... now West Brom had no stars! No Yak (£11M); no Distin (£6M); no Bily (£10M); no Heitinga (£6.5M)... get my point? I didn’t mention any injured players in that list on purpose — to highlight the money Moyes has spent and that the standard has got worse.

Some Evertonians would settle for anything; what a shame.

I must be the same age as Dick Fearon because I also yearn for a side like that Carey team who played football from back to front and were really great to watch...

His first signing was Roy Vernon and he, Alex Young and the others were the nearest you could get to Brazilian style football. I know that football is faster and more athletic but that does not excuse players who cannot do the basics...

Now we create so called legends of EFC players who would not even get on the bench. Nowadays, players who cannot last 90 minutes at todays pace are employed to play for an hour.

When players are dropped, rested or return from injury they should play in the reserves until they are sharp enough to return to first team action. In our present set-up it seems that certain players can play every week without any competition for their places... this is a very poor situation to be in and proves how badly our club is being mismanaged.

Competition for places should be a requirement in every team and if it is not there then ’some’ players can literally coast through some games with no danger of being dropped.

I strongly believe that Cahill should be given a rest and utilised as a ’super sub’ until his form picks up.

Sean Mckenna, what a clueless response.

Ask any supporter, player, coach or pundit IN THE WORLD which is the fastest league and, with the possible exception of some Irish fella who sits in front of his computer whining about once being in awe of tricky wingers he imagines we had, they will all tell you it's the EPL.

How lucky were are, despite the EPL being only box office when the Sky Four are playing, that notoriously generous chap Rupert Murdoch still gives the rest of us hundreds of millions... out of the goodness of his heart — fair play to you, Rupe lad.

To answer your question... yes, I do go to the games, simply because I don't believe I could be one of these Evertonians who can sit in front of his PC and tell Fellow blues who spend thousands of pounds travelling around the country, in the hope of seeing us play well and win, that they will settle for anything.

We would all like to go back to the days of the Golden Vision, he was my all time hero, the reason I am blue and not red. But I’m not niave enough to believe he would last five minutes in today's game, he struggled even back then with the physical side of the game.

Do you guys really not understand? The game has moved on, it is 100 mph, there are lightening fast athletes who are twice as strong as the predecessors whose sole intention is to stop you playing. The reason we British don't produce ball playing defenders or midfield players who can keep the ball is because they earn their living in an environment where you barely have time to breath.

West Brom got relegated because they could not defend at one end and could not score at the other. The bit in between was pleasing on the eye.

Dave Wilson, you pass the Evertonian test mate as do many of us — like you I spend large sums of cash following the blues — home, away, europe too. You have repeatedly expressed your satisfaction with our performance at West Ham — along with many others I disagree with you but wheeling out the evertonian loyalty test is a crap argument.

Ah Paul, there you are, what a surprise.

I did not "wheel out the loyalty test" as you put it, The guy who knows nothing about me actually told me I hadn't been watching Everton games this year, I answered, that's all. Read the post.

There’s an Evertonian test?

No-one told me!

Dave Wilson, you're having laugh mate, aren't you? Fast players like Osman, Neville, Bily, Cahill, Jo, etc... these super-strong players of the modern game eh? Excitment of two shots on target at West Ham, our boring 4-5-1 formation at home? Our hoofball tactics?

Dave, answer me this: What’s our style of play? Do we try to pass through defences? Do we try wing play? Do we try one-touch football? Do we try counter-attack footie?

As far as I can see, and many Evertonians would agree, we our a percentage style of a team, a very expensive team at that. Apart from the odd wonder goal it’s set-plays and hoofball all the way. Do you accept that?

Well I don’t... and under Moyes, we will never change!

ps: Don’t question my loyalty as an Evertonian thank you.

Dave Wilson, Sean McKenna — cut out this "loyalty" shit right now, please.

I have been just looking at what Moyes had when he took over:

http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/01-02/squad.asp

Which of those players would get into a fully first eleven today?