I say let them join!!! I'd more than fancy our chances against either of them and I actually think their leaving the SPL would benefit that league and move away from the Old Firm domination that it's been for decades.

It's a league in need of a total revamp to make it more competitive and this can only be achieved by Celtic and Rangers moving away. I also think they would enhance the EPL without being serious competitors — at least in the short term...

I would not let them join because potentially it would be a big hooligan problem. I am English & I live in Glasgow and I know how much they hate the English... which is why IMO it is a pure cheek them asking anyway.

Spot on, Simon. Also, I think nearly all the country support either Rangers or Celtic as their second team and this would become very confusing. It would be no good for the SPL.

Well, United & Liverpool hate each other as do many other local rivals, not to mention Celtic & Rangers themselves, so I’m not sure that would be a big issue. I wouldn’t want Celtic there as it would provide a conflict of interest for me having two clubs to follow in the same league.

I say if they want it that badly, Welcome to the Blue Square Premier, and good luck! They might not be so keen then... (Not that there is anything wrong with that league, but the money isn’t there is it?)

As a blue who moved to Scotland 12 years ago, I say fuck them off. The reason that the Scottish PremierLeague is no longer competitive is because the old firm has bled it dry for years. It was only recently that the rest of the Scottish Premier League were about to resign and leave them to play each other every week, which probably would have needed a budget on a par with the MOD to police. I read an article on Bluekipper the other day that explains this better than I ever could but I can’t find the thing.

Basically the elite 16.6% of the league have taken all the money. In this respect the Scottish league is streets ahead of us and if the English Premier League ever needed an example of what will happen if we allow this elitist shite to carry on then we really don’t have to look that far.

Football clubs are quite rightly run as a business, but not many forms of business depend on their competitors to be successful in order to be successful themselves. This is not Tesco. Wiping out the competition is not going to get anyone anywhere.

Let's be honest, the Scots hate us, so if the boot was on the other foot would they let English clubs in? No. Also, in England we don't have or need the religious bigotry/political shite that comes with these clubs. We don't want or need them.

There’s some right bollocks posted on this subject.

First some background; I’ve just worked for three years solid in Scotland and in that time watched a significant number of football matches there, predominantly Rangers games with a colleague, and not once in three years did I have any trouble. The hooligan issues most people worry about appear to come from the cup final in Manchester where the majority of trouble makers turned out to be from England — read Chelsea and other London based "firms".

I know at least one Scottish female supporter who is about 5 foot tall who was smashed in the face by a really angry Greater Manchester police officer whilst she was trying to get back to the train station with her husband... but why ruin a good press crucifixion of the Scottish hordes destroying an English city? If you had been in Manchester that night you would have seen the heavy-handed approach taken by the police and lack of flexibility they had, even statements leading up to the match gave all the signs of the Scottish fans not being welcome in the city.

Another item most people don’t appear to know is that the Scottish TV deal was well and truly fucked by a greedy bastard who we all know well; Keith Wyness, whilst he was at Aberdeen, he demanded a massive increase in payments for teams other than the old firm. For winning the SPL, the prize money is in the region of £1m, compare that finishing last in the EPL even when your team has been absolutely garbage and then continues to get parachute payments.

If you have any knowledge of SPL football games, Rangers and Celtic actually play each team four times and in some cases often take along more supporters than the other team thus keeping a whole lot of teams afloat. If they leave the SPL a fair number of teams would go to the wall.

Read a funny but not completely ridiculous suggestion on football365.com: why not offload a bunch of Premier and football league sides to Scotland?
Newcastle, Sunderland, Boro, Hull, Bradford, Huddersfield... in fact everyone down as far as Preston could probably pop up to the sweaty sock league and make a game of it for them, leaving more TV money for the teams in the English leagues.

Gavin
I am not as well versed as you tell us you are with all matters regarding the SPL, but can you explain why anyone demanding more money going to clubs other than the Old Firm is a bad thing? Or is it just another chance to have a little dig at someone with Everton connections?

I’d like to know what happens when (not if) Cardiff get promoted to the PL? Will the PL turn round and say "sorry you can’t join our league because you are not English?" Cardiff will have the whole support of Wales against 19 English teams.

It will be the same as Benfica in the Spanish league or Rapid Vienna in the German league. It should be the same rule throughout Fifa. If Welsh teams can play in the English league, then so should Rangers and Celtic.

After all, aren’t we in the modern era where 66% (?) of players in the PL are foreign, not to mention managers and owners and soon refs! If we can allow foreigners in the English league, then why not a couple of Scottish teams (with hardly any Scots players).

As soon as it does happen and Rangers and Celtic move to England, the domino effect will be unbelievable and the result will be a European Super League with the current English Premier League turned into what the Welsh League is now.

Gavin, Right bollocks indeed. Celtic and Rangers are supported by a large percentage of bigoted neanderthals...

Can I suggest taking the boat back to Belfast after an old firm game. And it’s not just the Irish... the amount of old firm shirt wearing Scots who delight in finding their way to NI for their yearly stick twirling scetarian fest — is quite alarming..

These are two teams who cannot seperate bigotry from football... and Rangers seem to get into trouble everytime they go abroad as well....

Gavin, Keith Wyness was simply trying to create a more level playing field in the SPL. This was for the benefit of all the SPL members, including the old firm. He was not being a greedy bastard. After all, it is because of their monopoly that they are in this situation.

With regards to the trouble in Manchester, of the 49 suspects wanted by the police, 14 have been arrested. 11 from Scotland 1 from Manchester 1 from Essex, 1 from Chorley and none from Chelsea.

Although I agree that the old firm do sometimes get bad press, I cannot remember a time when there has been trouble and Chelsea haven’t been mentioned. Even when they’re playing up in Aberdeen. Sorry to hear about your friend getting hit by the copper but maybe he panicked after seeing his mate getting the shit kicked out of him.

Anyway, a couple of points I’d like to make.

1/ What would happen if we let them in and they got relegated? (Maybe they would want to go home...)

2/ What happens when Aberdeen and Hibs outgrow the new SPL?

Mathew, Will Everton be part of your new European Superleague?

Besides, I thought we already had one called the Champions League. The old firm fail miserably in this every year, that's the reason they want Premier League money.

Gavin... Do you not remember the carnage in the City Centre, and the battle of Goodison Road, the last time the Huns came down..!!??!!

You seem to have an in depth knowledge of most things related to Football, except for the stuff that really matters....

I say, fuck Rangers, fuck Celtic, and fuck the Mickey Mouse league they play hoofball in...

Tony Gee et al with short memories — can you name a supposed Everton supporter that had a book published rejoicing them beating the shit out of other teams' fans and arranging fights to coincide with football games? Short memory indeed...

And James, by your logic of my friend who is female by the way, does that mean the poor sod who got a kicking from the Old Bill and died during the G20 riots, or whatever they were, deserved that? A copper mob handed with his mates with the power of detention is there to serve the peace, not abuse his or her powers to seek revenge.

The point on the share of TV money is Scotland didn't take into account how much and how reliant other teams are on playing and being outnumbered at home games by Rangers and Celtic supporters — think before Gretna went bust what they gave the SPL? Fuck all in terms of support and not even capable of playing games at their home ground.

All teams have their bigots and arseholes, including Everton, it’s easier for folk to jump on the media bandwagon. Finally, I don't think either should join the EPL but that's because I think it would destroy what little they have in the SPL already.

Ciaran, I often went to the Wee Rangers Club after games and met your Irish bigots face to face and laughed them off as I can see the futility and piss take capabilities. Strange indeed that I as a Roman Candle didn't feel the slightest bit aggrieved by any of the sectarian shite on display.

Tune in to the Real Radio football show after any Rangers game to listen to Celtic fans who listened to the entire game JUST to hear a single song to report to the police... Ask why Celtic management refuse to wear poppies or have any serving returning troops at the stadium to welcome them home or why they are linked to far darker sectarian shite home and away.

Gavin
Talk about twisting what I said. You could be my wife!

I did not condone the actions of the policeman who hit your friend, I merely pointed out that there was another side to the argument. So by your logic, it is ok for a gang of scumbags to kick the shit out of a policeman.

Now don’t get me wrong, as a victim of police brutality once or twice myself, I’m not very keen on coppers at all and neither do I condone their actions at the G20.

I have a colleague in Scotland who lives in and supports Dundee and is quite emphatic about this, he says you don’t want them — they’re a "midden". By which he means you get hordes of drunks pissing in gardens up against houses etc and general disruptive behaviour, plus tonnes of debris to clear up. This isn’t isolated incidents, he reckons, it’s every time they come to town.

Uefa Cup Final in Manchester behaviour twice a year in Liverpool, anyone? No thanks.

Gavin, Everton, Sunderland, Spurs and Newcastle have all witnessed mass riots when Rangers have come down for a friendly pre-season, they are different from your ordinary club like us who do have scallies. Even Birkenhead witnessed the pricks causing mayhem when they played Shamrock Rovers at Prenton Park and that was between themselves and the police as there where no other fans to fight. It has happened for years and them in the PL would be murder EVERY week.

I hate the both of them, but Celtic have a more beer monsters whilst Rangers are basically an organised hooligan firm. As for Moyes wanting them here, why Davie? They would both sooner or later recieve an influx of major money given their size and would leave us with another two clubs to catch up... maybe he was thinking of his own future ambitions!

James l’Anson, it’s not me wanting a European Super League, it’s simply the way of Europe politically and football today and the way it is heading. We are all part of an EU now and will be controlled more by the EU than our own government soon. Football is simply following suit. The Champions League has descended into a farce where you only have to be the 4th best team in your country to be able to win the "Champions" (how ironic) League.

The Rangers/Celtic debate and the 39th game debate and the two-tier Premier League debate have all come about recently due to the top teams wanting more and more money. The Premier League is controlled by money but because our top 4 teams dominate Europe, the other so-called big clubs across Europe want to be on a level playing field.

I can guarantee a European Super League will take place, not next year, possibly not in ten years time, but it will happen as money talks the loudest in football now. Rangers and Celtic won’t be in it, certainly not the top tier anyway, and as much as I would like to see it, Everton won’t be involved either unless something drastic happens soon.

Gavin, You hit the nail on the head when you said there is some bollocks talked on this subject... and then you proceeded to talk the biggest load of bollock of the lot.

Firstly, you have a dig at Wyness (who I'm no fan of in the slightest) for trying to get more money for other clubs; then, when challenged on it, you come back with a bullshit answer that has no relevance to the question you were asked. So I'll ask again — just how was Wyness trying to get more money for clubs other than the Old Firm a bad thing?

Secondly, from your second post, it would appear that you have more of an issue with Celtic fans complaining to a radio station about sectarian chants from Rangers fans but don't seem to have an issue with the fact that the Rangers fans were singing sectarian songs! Strange one that! Did I read that correctly!?

Thirdly, just what exactly is this "darker Sectarian" shite from Celtic that you talk about? There are unlimited example of sectarianism from Rangers and their supporters but not from Celtic. I'm not for a second denying that there are idiots who may have sectarian viewpoints following Celtic but as a football club Celtic most definitely are not sectarian. Indeed Celtic’s most successful manager was a Protestant — contrast this with Rangers who for years had an unwritten policy not to sign Catholics.

Your years of going to Rangers matches and clubs, where you in fact point out there was sectarian shite on display, would seem to have robbed you of the ability to be objective in your opinion.

To get away from the sectarianism issues for a moment (which I would also regard as a problem), the main problem with the Old Firm joining the EPL is that they would still physically be in Glasgow and still soaking up all the support.

If Celtic are at home to Arsenal or Spurs in the EPL and St Mirren are at home to Kilmarnock in the SPL, which game do you think most Scots are gonna want to watch?

We don't want them and we dont need them, especially Celtic.

If you need to see why then look at the clip below.

Keep them where they belong, Scotland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KwSJCAfaBE

In fact Celtic should join the Irish League — their fans think they are Irish anyway.

Gavin..

"Tony Gee et al with short memories — can you name a supposed Everton supporter that had a book published rejoicing them beating the shit out of other teams’ fans and arranging fights to coincide with football games? Short memory indeed... "

What the fuck has Andy's book (he’ll love the "supposed Evertonian" jibe by the way") got to do with the Rangers Hooliganism problem!?!

Rangers cause problem no matter where they go, and if you pulled yer head out of your rose-tinted ring-piece, you’d see it...

Lots of teams have firms, but the Huns are 20 years behind the rest of us, and still think it’s cool to wreck towns and terrify innocent fans attending matches...

We do not want the Scottish basically — what value would it bring to the Premier League?

In my opinion, financially Celtic and Rangers would be the only winners; at best, we get a team that brings a full allocation of away support, on average about 1500 more supporters only for the benefit to be wiped out in extra policing costs and the risk of trouble in the city.

Let them rot in their wonderful Scotland... and by the way, don't they hate the English?

About 15 years ago, I attended an old firm game and I was fairly shocked at what I witnessed. Outside the ground, Rangers fans marching with banners about battles in Ulster and inside Celtic fans chanting their support for the IRA. Also I had my hands over my head as a succession of bricks, bottles and coins were thrown.

I was once hit by a bottle at Goodison, once struck by an Arsenal fan outside the ground and hit the kidneys for standing in the Hillsborough Kop (maybe I shouldn’t have been there) but that’s it from about 200 games in England.

I think anyone who doesn’t think there would be a hooligan issue is being naive. I wonded if Moyes’s support for the idea was due to him wanting to manage one of the old firm but only in a quality league.

Gavin, what shite are you talking? Celtics last match against Falkirk the team had Poppies on their shirts. Some English clubs didn't even wear Poppies. Their manager also wore a Poppy so if you raise a topic like that get your facts right.

My brother and a lot of my friends are season ticket holders a Parkhead and are in no way Sectarian, but like anything, there are elements in all clubs were fans act like twats.

Ciaran, I’ve been on that boat you were talking about (I was over to watch Clydebank) and I know exactly what you mean. It’s scary naked sectarianism and, sorry Seamus, it comes from both sides. I lived for some time in Glasgow and watched both clubs at home, that’s why I was going to watch Clydebank.

As a passionate Everton & Rangers fan from Glasgow, I think it's a shame the Old Firm won't be in the EPL, although there are plenty of good reasons which everybody else has brought up already (not to mention the traumatic prospect of my two sides playing each other for points).

For the record, I am not a bigot, I don't attend orange walks, I’m not a hooligan and I am friends with English, Liverpool, and Celtic supporters. Please, I understand the sentiment, but don't assume all followers of the Old Firm fall neatly into your stereotype. Except for the peeing on houses in Dundee bit — that place is one big toilet anyway. JOKE — RELAX!

Points 2 and 3 by Seamus - sums it up nicely.

Gavin - you should be offended and aggrieved by sectarian bile. Especially if you are a "Roman Candle." I am as well by the way - and I’d be offended greatly. Offended if it were lobbed at me and offended if I heard another "Roman Candle" spewing it towards another human being. Because it’s not acceptable according to the "Roman Candle" way.
"They are linked to far darker sectarian shite..." Really?
Trevor - Singing v. Riots in Manchester.....
C’mon man. Seriously.
btw - the singing during silence is disgraceful, so we at least agree on that point.

Gavin, You're showing your bigotry by even mentioning Celtic and poppies. What’s that got to do with this debate?

And for your information, perhaps they choose not to alienate a huge section of their fans who don’t have any support for the British Army — considering their role in Ireland from 1969. Freedom of expression and all that...

Matthew, Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham when they were in the league opted not to play in the League of Wales but stay in the English league. That's why they no longer play in the Welsh cup and qualify for Europe.

Gavin, leave them were they are, we don't need them. I work offshore in Aberdeen and the shite I have to listen about how "Sky want it, it will happen" is a joke. As it was already mentioned about Celtic not wearing poppies — what was on your telly? ... because on mine they had them on.