The Mail Bag
Team spirit
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Every time that someone like Tony Marsh who spends his hard earned money watching rubbish at GP comes on here and says "sack Moyes" those of us who now live overseas tend to protest and usally two or three mention "team spirit" as a positive in terms of keeping Moyes.
The belief seems to be that without Moyes we'll lose this "team spirit" and all our good players will go elsewhere. I noticed this week that both Heitinga and Neill have jumped on the "team spirit" bandwagon following in the footsteps of the oft quoted Neville, Cahill and Arteta.
My question is this: Where is this "spirit" when the games are going on ? When do we see the never say died attitude of old ? I once had a job at a bar where we had "team spirit" and what that really meant was that none of us did any work and we just hung out socially.
I never hear anyone talking of "team spirit" at Man Utd. In fact if you ask Stam, Beckham or Nani they will tell you that Fergie is never satisified, angry and unfriendly. You will hear similar things said about the Capello England team by the likes of David James, Rooney and Terry. The media often highlight the fact that Capello's thus far successful stint is in stark contrast to Steve MacLarens unsuccessful spell during which there was a "team spirit" and casual atmosphere among staff and players.
I am noticing a trend here. Demanding, authoritarian manager = success. Laid back "team spirit" facilitator = crap team. Additionally if we sign, enter into negotiations with or make a bid for Alan Hutton or any other right back in the next transfer window then my support of Everton will be at an end. You need more than just half a dozen right backs "enjoying a friendly rivalry" to build a team Moyes.
Kieran Kinsella, Posted 25/11/2009 at 20:45:39
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Another lesson for Moyes, does he really have to suffer from mistakes before learning anything? I bet that was the last time we see Rodwell at R Mid or Gosling at full back. Neither have impressed me much wherever they play.
Hibbert at R back and Neil at R Mid would have been better.
"Tony is always getting slated, but week by week, he is being proven right. "
If that was the case we’d have been relegated every year for the last 5.
If that was the case we’d have been relegated every year for the last 5.
It’s like when you are younger out on the lash with your mates and one of them asks you to help him out as he has copped off and you get the dreaded "come on mate, help me out, she’s got a mate", you just know you are being lined up for a pig. You know the lines "she’s got a great personality", "she’s a good laugh", translate to don’t fancy your’s mate.
Well, that’s how I see this use of team spirit, we are shite players not world beaters and you are being suckered in to the "plucky little Everton" type patronising bollocks.
A few posters have asked would you still be interested by Martinez, well to be honest how many goes did he take to beat Chelski, and how many times has Moyes tried. As for who is out there, yes there is chaff but there are also managers who set out their teams to actually play the game; you remember that stuff, passing and not hoofing, attacking every ball, leaving at least one player up when defending a corner.
Brian, what Tony has been proven right over is the style of football on offer; it’s utter dross. When sides like Stoke, Hull, Burnley and Bolton can do it why the hell can’t we? DM gets paid a hell of a lot of money for the shite he puts out week after week. Do you honestly think Everton won’t still be looking for points for safety come February on our current form?
Well, that’s how I see this use of team spirit, we are shite players not world beaters and you are being suckered in to the "plucky little Everton" type patronising bollocks.
A few posters have asked would you still be interested by Martinez, well to be honest how many goes did he take to beat Chelski, and how many times has Moyes tried. As for who is out there, yes there is chaff but there are also managers who set out their teams to actually play the game; you remember that stuff, passing and not hoofing, attacking every ball, leaving at least one player up when defending a corner.
Brian, what Tony has been proven right over is the style of football on offer; it’s utter dross. When sides like Stoke, Hull, Burnley and Bolton can do it why the hell can’t we? DM gets paid a hell of a lot of money for the shite he puts out week after week. Do you honestly think Everton won’t still be looking for points for safety come February on our current form?
Its all Blah Blah Blah shite.
We have been turned over so many times this season it is fucking embarrasing. Additionally, we have got lucky against several teams and got 1 or 3 undeserved points.
Something is amiss, seriously amiss. Moyes and the players dont seem to give a fuck. I recall an EFC fan, about 4 years ago at Highbury, attempting to swap his own shirt for the royal blue top of one of our shite players. At the time I thought "Steady fella". Fuck me, things are now worse. Much worse.
In addition to our injured players we seem to be carrying about 4 players on the pitch.
I have a feeling GP is going to be hell on Sunday. Our players need a fucking wake up call.
We have been turned over so many times this season it is fucking embarrasing. Additionally, we have got lucky against several teams and got 1 or 3 undeserved points.
Something is amiss, seriously amiss. Moyes and the players dont seem to give a fuck. I recall an EFC fan, about 4 years ago at Highbury, attempting to swap his own shirt for the royal blue top of one of our shite players. At the time I thought "Steady fella". Fuck me, things are now worse. Much worse.
In addition to our injured players we seem to be carrying about 4 players on the pitch.
I have a feeling GP is going to be hell on Sunday. Our players need a fucking wake up call.
Sunday doesn’t matter.
What matters is to get BK out of Goodison.
That twat and his fucking sidekick Moyes are to blame totally for the shite hoofball we are subjected to week after week.
Getting beat by Wolves is worse than
Wigan getting tonked by Spurs.
Maybe now all the Moyes can do no wrong brigade will realise he is a useless tactician.
Rodwell if he has any sense will be asking his agent to get him a move to Arsenal where he can play football.
This club is going to implode like Newcastle.Only when we do therte will be no way back.
What matters is to get BK out of Goodison.
That twat and his fucking sidekick Moyes are to blame totally for the shite hoofball we are subjected to week after week.
Getting beat by Wolves is worse than
Wigan getting tonked by Spurs.
Maybe now all the Moyes can do no wrong brigade will realise he is a useless tactician.
Rodwell if he has any sense will be asking his agent to get him a move to Arsenal where he can play football.
This club is going to implode like Newcastle.Only when we do therte will be no way back.
Where did I get Wolves from,
I meant Hull.
I meant Hull.
Fair play to Tony Marsh, at least he hasn’t got his head buried in the sand.
for all those saying moyes out... who would you replace him with?
this is his team and i am confident that when players start returning from injury things will look a whole lot better
hopefully we will still have something to play for come that time
this is his team and i am confident that when players start returning from injury things will look a whole lot better
hopefully we will still have something to play for come that time
Right now Thomas, there are 19 better managers in this league than moyes and probably 10-12 better managers in the Championship.
The injuries are long term and even once our best players - Arteta and Jags are playing they still need time (similarly to Yak) to find their form. That means at least end of Feb to mid March before we see them playing well again. We could well be bottom and out of sight by then.
For me, Moyes can’t keep bleating on about injuries and excusing defeat after defeat on injuries. Are we all going to accept relegation just because of injuries?
Fuck that, accept the injuries and come up with some way of playing without those players. If Moyes can’t do that, then he should fuck off.
The injuries are long term and even once our best players - Arteta and Jags are playing they still need time (similarly to Yak) to find their form. That means at least end of Feb to mid March before we see them playing well again. We could well be bottom and out of sight by then.
For me, Moyes can’t keep bleating on about injuries and excusing defeat after defeat on injuries. Are we all going to accept relegation just because of injuries?
Fuck that, accept the injuries and come up with some way of playing without those players. If Moyes can’t do that, then he should fuck off.
Alan, I have to pick you up on a point there mate. To say that there are 19 better managers in the prem is a bit hysterical to say the least.
You are effectively saying that Sam Allerdyce, Gary Megson, Phil Brown, Owen Coyle and Zola are all better managers than Moyes??!
I agree that Moyes is taking us nowhere at the moment but lets keep it real lads.
I think we should start looking overseas now.
You are effectively saying that Sam Allerdyce, Gary Megson, Phil Brown, Owen Coyle and Zola are all better managers than Moyes??!
I agree that Moyes is taking us nowhere at the moment but lets keep it real lads.
I think we should start looking overseas now.
Sorry Chris, I hate Megson but Bolton scored 3 against us and beat us. Burnley beat us and even Hull have beaten us. Those managers have got the better of Moyes with far less resources than him. I actually would like Owen Coyle. He has achieved more with Burnley than Moyes did with Preston yet everyone welcomed Moyes with open arms. I think Coyle’s team plays the game the right way - keep possession and attack down the wings as well as playing 2 strikers. In your wildest dreams could you see Everton scoring 3 at Man City?
Moyes proved how one-dimensional he is by trying 4-4-2 last night. He doesn’t know how to employ that tactic, whenever he does our defence goes to shite. We all cry out for more attacking football but Moyes doesn’t know how to do it. Ideally, I’d like a foreign stylish manager like the fella at Benfica but the position we’re in with Kenwright in charge means there’s no way we could attract one.
It means we’d have to gamble on a lesser known manager similarly to how we recruited Moyes in the first place. I’d just go for someone like Coyle with the right philosophy on how the game should be played.
Moyes proved how one-dimensional he is by trying 4-4-2 last night. He doesn’t know how to employ that tactic, whenever he does our defence goes to shite. We all cry out for more attacking football but Moyes doesn’t know how to do it. Ideally, I’d like a foreign stylish manager like the fella at Benfica but the position we’re in with Kenwright in charge means there’s no way we could attract one.
It means we’d have to gamble on a lesser known manager similarly to how we recruited Moyes in the first place. I’d just go for someone like Coyle with the right philosophy on how the game should be played.
So the derby game has unbelievable importance now (more so than usual). A reaction from the team, a performance and a result will show that the players are still behind the manager and that the situation is still rescuable. Even in the dark old days of Walter Smith, come the derby at least we had a real go and we are twice the team now than we were then.
I fear all hell will let loose if we get well beaten on Sunday. A weeks a long time in football, even longer if your an Everton fan!
I fear all hell will let loose if we get well beaten on Sunday. A weeks a long time in football, even longer if your an Everton fan!
Tony Marsh is right ?
So it really is all Ossie and Hibbos fault ?
So it really is all Ossie and Hibbos fault ?
I watched the game (with Scandinavian commentary) in the pub last night
I wasn’t aware of being overly negative - I encouraged the team to go forward ( yea, I know they couldn’t hear me), kicked every ball, gave credit when it was due etc
I also moaned like hell and groaned in frustration at the utter shambles and lack of passing ability on show
Imagine my surprise at the end to be asked ’What kind of Evertonian are you?’ by a 30-something
’A good one - why, were you happy with that?
’Well we’ve got injuiries. we did our best’
Forget Kirkby now, I think this is where the real division lies - the group who have seen or believe in creative Everton sides and aspire to better things versus those who take comfort in ’we used to be worse a few years ago’
I wasn’t aware of being overly negative - I encouraged the team to go forward ( yea, I know they couldn’t hear me), kicked every ball, gave credit when it was due etc
I also moaned like hell and groaned in frustration at the utter shambles and lack of passing ability on show
Imagine my surprise at the end to be asked ’What kind of Evertonian are you?’ by a 30-something
’A good one - why, were you happy with that?
’Well we’ve got injuiries. we did our best’
Forget Kirkby now, I think this is where the real division lies - the group who have seen or believe in creative Everton sides and aspire to better things versus those who take comfort in ’we used to be worse a few years ago’
Ahh Phil,
Are you not familiar with the rules of being an Evertonian?
Meek and complicit acceptance...finished off with effusive praise whatever the circumstances..
’Call yourself and Evertonian?’
’Call yourself a fuckin football fan?’
Are you not familiar with the rules of being an Evertonian?
Meek and complicit acceptance...finished off with effusive praise whatever the circumstances..
’Call yourself and Evertonian?’
’Call yourself a fuckin football fan?’
Weren’t those rules in my day, Ciarán
Cushions raining down on the pitch, Harry getting jostled at Blackpool, managers sacked for coming 4th and only reaching semis and finals
Worst last night, though, was when I challenged the tosser how he’d have spent 20 million, if we had it - ’another centre-half, steady right back’
What - no pace, no flair, no vision?
Said he’d never heard of Rick Elmey
Cushions raining down on the pitch, Harry getting jostled at Blackpool, managers sacked for coming 4th and only reaching semis and finals
Worst last night, though, was when I challenged the tosser how he’d have spent 20 million, if we had it - ’another centre-half, steady right back’
What - no pace, no flair, no vision?
Said he’d never heard of Rick Elmey
ahh, the days when people could understand the distinction between the club and the temporary clowns that ran it....
I think last night was the first time I heard Moyes mention that injuries have taken it’s toll on the team unlike the other side who are moaning because just TWO of their players are injured.
I would be questioning the fitness team, physio and medical staff as why we have so many players out with a knee injury and why is it taking so long for them to get back. Just teh other day it was mention that Neville now needs an op nearly 3 months after he picked up the injury!
I think there are a lot more people than Moyes to blame including the 11 on the pitch.
It’s so disappointing watching Spurs tank Wigan on Sunday and the subs they brought on would walk straight into our team and have been linked with us. I really do fear that we are starting to go backwards and could get stuck down in the Championship!
I would be questioning the fitness team, physio and medical staff as why we have so many players out with a knee injury and why is it taking so long for them to get back. Just teh other day it was mention that Neville now needs an op nearly 3 months after he picked up the injury!
I think there are a lot more people than Moyes to blame including the 11 on the pitch.
It’s so disappointing watching Spurs tank Wigan on Sunday and the subs they brought on would walk straight into our team and have been linked with us. I really do fear that we are starting to go backwards and could get stuck down in the Championship!
Is it okay to say something positive, or does that make me not a ’true Evertonian’?
Looks like destination Kirkby might be back on... seems we’re going to build a stadium without a retail development...
"There could still be hope for Everton if they remain keen on Kirkby, with Denham disagreeing with the planning inspector’s view that Kirkby cannot house a football stadium. In the decision note, it is stated that "the secretary of state does not agree with the inspector’s conclusion that this suburban residential town is not a suitable location for such a large football stadium.
"This is because, while he shares the inspector’s concerns regarding living conditions and those other concerns identified regarding the stadium, the secretary of state does not consider that this necessarily precludes an alternative proposal for a stadium within the town of Kirkby coming forward which might be acceptable."
"If the scheme was rejected in a way that we can amend it or tailor it to give it a greater chance of success then that’s something clearly we’ll look at," said Elstone. "I’ll sit down with the partners and review the decision before we make our next steps on that particular point."
Source - The Guardian 26/11/09
Just when you throught it couldn’t get any worse...
Looks like destination Kirkby might be back on... seems we’re going to build a stadium without a retail development...
"There could still be hope for Everton if they remain keen on Kirkby, with Denham disagreeing with the planning inspector’s view that Kirkby cannot house a football stadium. In the decision note, it is stated that "the secretary of state does not agree with the inspector’s conclusion that this suburban residential town is not a suitable location for such a large football stadium.
"This is because, while he shares the inspector’s concerns regarding living conditions and those other concerns identified regarding the stadium, the secretary of state does not consider that this necessarily precludes an alternative proposal for a stadium within the town of Kirkby coming forward which might be acceptable."
"If the scheme was rejected in a way that we can amend it or tailor it to give it a greater chance of success then that’s something clearly we’ll look at," said Elstone. "I’ll sit down with the partners and review the decision before we make our next steps on that particular point."
Source - The Guardian 26/11/09
Just when you throught it couldn’t get any worse...
Moyes has been moaning about injuries since last season.
Kieran by your logic that authoritarian and unpopular knob-jockey Graham Souness would be a world beater...and that’s nearly as ridiculous to imagine as it is to type.
Ray Burn he wasn’t exactly what I had in mind but now that you mention him let’s compare his and Moyes managerial records...
Souness won the FA cup in 1992, League cup in 2002. In Scotland he won everything for what it’s worth at Rangers.
Moyes has ... won nothing ...ever
Souness won the FA cup in 1992, League cup in 2002. In Scotland he won everything for what it’s worth at Rangers.
Moyes has ... won nothing ...ever
Moyes has been moaning about injuries since last season.
Souness was a great manager - ask any Redshite
Kieran you and I both know that even a partnership of Houllier and Evans could win the lot with Rangers.
I’m feeling pretty frustrated ( but not at the end of my tether) with Moyes too at the moment, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree with this whole team spirt angle.
Mourinho always strikes me as a laid-back team spirit facilitator and that’s a good thing. What seperates him from Moyes is supreme tactical nous, aggressive substitutions and less of a penchant for playing right backs all over the pitch.
The cause of our ( and Davey’s ) current woes probably lie more in the direction of those failings. IMHO
I’m feeling pretty frustrated ( but not at the end of my tether) with Moyes too at the moment, but I think you might be barking up the wrong tree with this whole team spirt angle.
Mourinho always strikes me as a laid-back team spirit facilitator and that’s a good thing. What seperates him from Moyes is supreme tactical nous, aggressive substitutions and less of a penchant for playing right backs all over the pitch.
The cause of our ( and Davey’s ) current woes probably lie more in the direction of those failings. IMHO
team spirit has gone out the window since we got spanked by Arsenal, thank you Mr. Lescott, the better teams we have come up against have shown us for what we are for, an average team thats low on confidence, I really dont think Moyes could tactically do much more with the players at his disposal, even if he is to blame for buying them! Lets hope we can get it together but as much as it pains me to say, expectations are far to high at Everton, we cannot produce that which we do not have. And yes, the heartbeat of our team Arteta has been missing, clearly his abstance is soarly missed. Im bracing myself for more misery but lets not think we are as badly managed as Newcastle, at least not yet.
Whilst watching the game against United on the TV , the Norwegian commentator came out with the following fascinating statistic : "Everton have ended up losing the last 60 (sixty) times they were trailing at half-time."
Now if this is true , doesnt it say a hell of a lot about
David Moyes....
Now if this is true , doesnt it say a hell of a lot about
David Moyes....
The major failing of David Moyes is the extreme of his defensive mind against attack.
We all know his preference is to keep things tight at the back and has been a large part of the improved league positions we have had under his tenure.
However every close season I here comments from him that we are light at the back and that is one of his priorities, never does he say the same about wingers or creative midfield players.
In the summer we should have kept Jacobsen, no world beater but adequate cover for our current ambition, that would have saved us the £5m on Heitenga, although he is growing on me. Also should have given valente another year as cover at left back, Obviously Distin was essential after Lescott going, But in short that would have left us with another £6m in the pot, that should have been used to ensure the Banega or a similar type deal happened.
We can have all the defenders or battling centre midfield players you like but we simply have no cover for Arteta, our form drifted when he had that groin strain following our exit against fiorentina 2 years back and arguably cost us 4th spot back then.
Again who’s to say we wouldn’t have pushed Arsenal harder last year, prior to the newcastle game we were only 4 points behind Arsenal, and maybe just maybe we could have done better in the cup final.
Granted this is all if & but’s but its clear to me that we are simply no where near the same side without Arteta and finding cover for him should have been a priority for both the last two summers. In that time Moyes has spent a total of £30m on Felliani, Heitenga & Billy, now surely that could have bought someone able to fill his role?
We all know his preference is to keep things tight at the back and has been a large part of the improved league positions we have had under his tenure.
However every close season I here comments from him that we are light at the back and that is one of his priorities, never does he say the same about wingers or creative midfield players.
In the summer we should have kept Jacobsen, no world beater but adequate cover for our current ambition, that would have saved us the £5m on Heitenga, although he is growing on me. Also should have given valente another year as cover at left back, Obviously Distin was essential after Lescott going, But in short that would have left us with another £6m in the pot, that should have been used to ensure the Banega or a similar type deal happened.
We can have all the defenders or battling centre midfield players you like but we simply have no cover for Arteta, our form drifted when he had that groin strain following our exit against fiorentina 2 years back and arguably cost us 4th spot back then.
Again who’s to say we wouldn’t have pushed Arsenal harder last year, prior to the newcastle game we were only 4 points behind Arsenal, and maybe just maybe we could have done better in the cup final.
Granted this is all if & but’s but its clear to me that we are simply no where near the same side without Arteta and finding cover for him should have been a priority for both the last two summers. In that time Moyes has spent a total of £30m on Felliani, Heitenga & Billy, now surely that could have bought someone able to fill his role?
In the summer we got a virtual repeat performance of summer 2008 - when we did our main business in the transfer window right at the very last minute. It was known at the end of last season that Arteta,Jagielka, Anichebe and Yakubu would be out for a long time and that most probably we would have to do without all/most of them until after Christmas. It was there a matter of the greatest urgency that we did not repeat the folly of the 2008 Close season. But that is exactly what happened. Moyes waited and waited before adding to the squad.
Given that we also released Valente, Jacobsen and Castillo - it meant that we were 7 players down in terms of squad numbers. Look at the players he has brought in - Heitinga and Lucas for instance. They are good signings - but they can’t play in the Eurpa League Group stages as they were signed TOO LATE. Moyes waits till the last minute yet again to strenghen the team - unlike other managers who were busy signing players/bringing in players on loan - NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Given that we also released Valente, Jacobsen and Castillo - it meant that we were 7 players down in terms of squad numbers. Look at the players he has brought in - Heitinga and Lucas for instance. They are good signings - but they can’t play in the Eurpa League Group stages as they were signed TOO LATE. Moyes waits till the last minute yet again to strenghen the team - unlike other managers who were busy signing players/bringing in players on loan - NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Tony Cheek
"Everton have ended up losing the last 60 (sixty) times they were trailing at half-time."
That is an out-fucking-rageous stat. I wonder if any of the statisticians on here can confirm it.
Pants!
"Everton have ended up losing the last 60 (sixty) times they were trailing at half-time."
That is an out-fucking-rageous stat. I wonder if any of the statisticians on here can confirm it.
Pants!
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1 Posted 26/11/2009 at 00:25:28
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