Can anyone please explain why the Sky pundits gave MOTM award to Carragher ? Surely Pienaar and Fellaini were streets ahead of him. At least we took nthe game to them for most of the time and any stray bounce was always going to fall at their feet. Reina was hailed as brilliant for saving Fellaini’s attempt; I doubt he even saw the ball, it was hit that hard. If Moyes can build on this performance I see no reason why we should’nt finish considerably higher than we are now - certainly top 6 !

I think today’s loss would’ve been a bit easier to take without the previous run of bad results.
Looking at things fairly objectively, this awful run has been combination of poor performances, defensive formations, horrendous bad luck (3 deflected goals in a week) and stupid individual mistakes.
It is vital to keep the performance level up against AEK and Spurs, and it’d be nice to at least have a go at Chelski in a fortnight.
The return of Pienaar and Billy (today’s mistakes notwithstanding) can only be positive and surely a few deflections will start going our way soon.
I suppose it makes a difference from "over-achieving".

Richard Murray - it is a big knee-jerk perhaps but I don’t think it’s unfair to describe Yobo as a weak link. For years his pace has been getting him out of trouble but the guy is simply not good enough.
Either way, I can’t believe Hibbert is still taking a kicking when he’s not in the team. His commitment and determination shows up Yobo’s airheadness.

My only knee-jerk reaction after that ’display’ would be to kick Moyes right out of the ground.

It’s grim and getting worse. Only Moyes starts almost every home game with 1 up front. Only Moyes won’t drop Cahill who hasn’t played a good game this season. Moyes is incapable of making the big decisions.

Intriguing to hear comments about Yobo. I’ve been making the same comments on here for almost 2 years. Nice guy, just not very good at defending. He does not inspire confidence, this doesn’t help Distin, there’s no obvious midfield defender and it all starts to unravel.

Since last season we have lost 2 of the very best central defenders in the EPL. That hurts. But Moyes, as a coach and an ex centre half, hasn’t dealt with the fallout. I also think Baines has been playing poorly for sometime (and doesn’t appear very happy either).

So we can’t defend. Everyone is banging in goals against us. That being the case, why not give Mustafi a chance? He was rated as the best young defender in Germany. What do we have to lose?

We are in a really bad place right now and it’s starting to look like the worst possible case of Catch 22’s. The lack of any money whatsoever means we can’t sack Moyes because of his pay off entitlement, and we have nothing available for new players should a new manager come aboard.

I think Moyes has lost enough of the players for alarms to start going off. I sense a diminishing respect and a growing sense of disjointedness in the team. We just can’t seem to play football to a reasonable standard. Lack of movement, skill, pace, control, interest, commitment. It’s all starting to look a bit Newcastle.

I would be delighted if Moyes could surprise us all and find the resolve and innovation to rescue our season. But sadly, I feel as though his presence has started to drag us down even further. We are all over the place and I have no confidence that Moyes has the wherewithall to save us.

For the first time in a very long time I am genuinely worried.

And this point needs to be made again:

To the best of my knowledge no other "serious" team in the EPL plays 4-5-1. Unless you have a natural holder and 2 natural attackers in there it just results in stretched football with an isolated striker.

Moyes plays this almost all the time. Packing midfield for reasons that I don’t fully understand, particularly given the way we usually play WITH the ball. If he’s serious about wanting us to play football why doesn’t he show flexibility and thought and use a different system that helps us to a) play more joined up football, and b) be harder to beat.

We have two natural holding midfielders in Rodwell and Heitinga, and enough skillfull attackers in Pienaar, Yakubu, Billy and Fellaini to play the 4-2-3-1 system that is proving so popular with many of the big teams.

It is beating a drum, but I am beyond numbness in observing just how often Everton give the ball away through needless long balls, poor control or poor movement. It shouldn’t be like this, in my opinion it needn’t be like this. But as long as Moyes stays I fear it always will be.

A team with no confidence, not playing football, keeps losing possession, can’t defend, manager depressed & seemingly clueless, and no money in the coffers. The clouds are circling and the writing is on the wall.

Alan Kirwan, I concur with all that with the exception of Mustafi.

This after another Derby were we stood off Liverpool again instead of getting stuck into them. As I say to my friends, if he is that good a manager then why is his games against the Sky 4 record so atrocious? The players are beaten before they get out of the tunnel.

Just a suggestion folks, how about Mark Hughes if he gets the boot at City?

Mark Hughes is in the same mold as Moyes — heavens, NO, NO, NO!

What has he proved as a manager? I don’t know??? He is a dour, boring man who sets City up in the same way as Moyes — NO, NO, NO!

He’s also very good at being a hypocrite — don’t forget the way he disdainfully led the Lescott defence!!

Well, my answer is predictable: change for who...? Who would be a better manager?

I felt that for long periods of the game we were by far the better side; with a bit of the rub of the green and some better finishing from Bily (amongst others) we would have been at least equal to them.

We went after Liverpool today, which is what I wanted to see. If it had been a dour backs to the wall performance with no ambition I might have been the first to shout for change.

On all of the major decisions, Moyes’s hand was forced...

Why play Jo and not Yak or Saha upfront? — the answer Saha had a fitness test and reported pain... he was the first choice. Moyes might have played Yak... but have you seen him recently?

Why not break up the Yobo-Distin partnership — it clearly isn’t working?

Again — who does he play in the centre of defence... Heitinga? I thought he had a good game where he played.

For the first time in months our midfield looked balanced, capable and even exciting and I took quite a bit of hope out of that game... if they can sustain that midfield balance, I think we’ll finish top half at least.

No doubt the gloom and doom professional miserablists saw a different game... And they call Moyes for being negative. (Note to Editor: when they stop calling me an apologist I’ll stop calling them miserablists.)

We’ll play a lot worse than that and win.

Kevin, your post is full of "could've beens" and "we might've done this and that". You say that Bily’s poor finish (amongst others) could've got us a draw. Well the reason these amongst others can't and don't finish is because they are simply not up to the task.

We are happy to say they tried their best and the effort was there. We are happy to sing and dance about the odd bit of vision and decent finish. Constantly we let them off the hook and give them more time because "the corner has been turned"...

These so-called 'miserablists' are also realists, IT IS NOT GOING TO GET ANY BETTER THAN. Time is up for both Moyes and the Board. Time is up with over-achieving. It's time for change and time to evolve and progess with fresh ideas.

To say the midfield excited you is proof to me delusion is setting in. Exciting midfields have end product, defence splitting passes, spary balls left and right, School of Science and all that.

I don't want to play worse and win, I want to play football and win.

Well, I DON’T usually engage with people who USE CAPS to make A Point... it normally denotes a fundemental lack of ideas...

But YOU WANT THE SAME AS I DO!!!!

Fundemental lack of ideas! I’m starting to sound like David Moyes am I? Maybe I’m trying too hard to get the point across that it needs to be fixed sharpish. I know we all want the best but I’m scared and bored with what's on offer at present. This doesn't warrant me a bad Evertonian but I really hope one day soon I wake up and he’s gone.

Er, so who then Bryan?

And what nonsense anyway to even think David Moyes should be replaced.

That was a great effort today. Every Evertonian can see what we deserved after a vigorous, skillful, positive performance. Sadly it was ultimately unlucky too.

BUT, it does show what an Everton team with the creative talents of Bilyaletdinov and Pienaar available, plus a man-of-the-match shift from, Fellaini is capable of. We certainly have no need to fear the limited offerings of the likes of Liverpool.

All this Moyes out vitriol is just ridiculous.

What’s worse than being beaten by the RS, a poor RS team? I cannot recall a derby in which we dominated the game like that, and that includes the 80s when the games were always tight. I can’t think of a single piece of good football the shite produced.

Just two comments on the game: personally I thought Jo did ok and was unlucky to be substituted, it should have been Cahill; and Fellaini had a good game and how much better he’d be alongside a Reid, Robson or Keane in CM, just mopping up the play, breaking it up and moving it along and free a box-to-box player. Well, you can dream...

So Matt, to answer your question: Despite everything... CHANGE = NO CHANGE

This is the worst Everton FC time in all my 50 years... and some people see positives??? FFS — what is the point anymore???

Worse than the whole of the 90s?

Today was the first time Pienaar and Fellaini have played in the same team since September. And Bily, who is now almost a PL player, added to the mix. And there it was at last — a midfield, capable of outplaying the mighty shite, Gerrard and all. Had that unit, possibly with Rodwell sitting behind them, been together for three or four games we could easily have won today.

Heitinga is a good player, and will be much better when his role is sorted out. But he hasn’t got the authority to come in and tell those around him what they should be doing (as Neville can and does) but he will one day, and the team will benefit as a result.

Osman would have done a good job out there today. And I’m not going to mention Arteta (except for that).

Pienaar was rugby tackled at Portsmouth to keep him out of six league games — I can’t recall if a free kick was awarded, certainly no card was proffered. As honest a footballer as there is, Pienaar was pulled up for competing fairly a few times today. That, to me, seemed to be how most of the decisions went.

We did put in a shift today and were unlucky not to get something from the game. It should worry us all however that nearly every team to play our beloved neighbours recently have taken points from them... except us. A sign of a team in a relegation dogfight.

What conerns me most is the lack of any real pattern to our attacking play. It's as if we simply gather in bunches of 2 or 3 players, attempt a 1-2, try a cross, win a throw/ corner, huff and puff and it all breaks down. Even the crosses in the main are slow and then lead to scrambles and rebounds in the box which invarably don't fall to us.

The manager has been here a long time now and the following major flaws remain: a lack of pace, nobody with a decent accurate shot especially from midfield, an inability to pass the ball out from the back.

Bizarrely enough, the defence were better today and will probably improve. Not so sure about the offensive side of our game — has this coaching team got the ability to develop a succesful attacking game instead of kick and rush?

I'm undecided. Hope they can do it but not full of confidence either. Worrying.

I have not always been the greatest fan of David Moyes but you cannot deny that he has brought Everton forward in leaps and bounds since he joined us. At times this season I too have began to think maybe Moyes's time has come to leave our beloved club.

However, the issue is not if there is anyone better for us than Moyes as there is good talent out there — such as Roy Hodgson, Claudio Ranieri, Alan Irvine, Zola to name a few. That is not to say they are better managers but could maybe have fresher ideas.

This brings us to my main point. I believe that Moyes's job is safe as the board have seen in recent years that Everton can finish 5th without having to invest in the same way Spurs, Villa etc do therefore maximising profits. A new manager would demand immediate transfer funds to spend in January, £20m I would imagine. Our board would not want to do that and I think would take the risk in Moyes scraping along this season in the hope our injury list would clear up from now until pre-season.

This could be our major downfall and I believe that with Mark Hughes under pressure City may come knocking on Moyes's door as he has done as much with us as possible with limited funds. This could then lead to Arteta, Jags, Saha, Rodwell, Pienaar, Bily etc swimming from this sinking ship and we will have to rebuild again and hope we can find more Cahills in the leagues below.

To conclude, I think the board need to invest in January and with a BIG pot of money as we do have financial clout on the board such as Earl and Leahy. And the board needs to let Moyes buy players he wants quickly rather than dithering over £500k and us missing out on targets.

Sean, Forgive me, Leahy on the board?

Alan,
Is the 4-5-1 you detest and the 4-2-3-1 you advocate, not just exactly the same thing?


Impressed with Heitinga’s battling performance. Pienaar and Bily showed quality on the ball.
I agree Cahill needs a rest and adding Rodwell and Arteta to that midfield would mean us playing better football - but we still need a fit Saha to spearhead the attack.

Defence did look better but thay may have been due to rs being awful. Didn’t realise Ngog was playing until the start of 2nd half when the teams ran across the bottom of the screen!

While is not my favourite formation to watch, if each player has the skill, a 4-5-1 can be very effective.

While I thought it was the best Everton performance in some time, two players really stood out for me.

- Fellaini: He dominated in the middle of the park, winning tackles shifting the ball and typically winning every header near him. He showed today he can play deeper and what he is capable of. The question is: can he keep those standards up? So far, the evidence says No.

- Pienaar: This man is class in every way. We have missed him so badly it was a pleasure to watch him. He is technically very good but he also has a good engine and put his body on the line.

In cold reality this season is already buggered in terms of improving on last year. Defence was better but Yobo and Distin scares the shit out of me at times. I’d prefer to watch a partnership of Neill and Heitinga develop as I’ve watched both play brilliantly there in the past.

If all players were available I’d like to see a defence of Neil, Jags, Heiting, Baines.

In the aftermath of the derby, there's a lot of talk on the webiste at the moment that Moyes should be sacked.

I'm not advocating that he should; in fact, given the dire injury run, I'd argue he shouldn't. But I came across this article and wondered what some you think about it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1231930/You-blame-David-Moyes-leaves-Everton-hotseat.html

Let's be honest, if it wasn't for his current financial package, do you think he would still be at Everton? So, no I would not blame Moyes for leaving, I would be full of appreciation for what he has done and respect him for moving on to his next challenge.

I would also like to point out that all the talk should be of Everton relieving Moyes of the hotseat not all these remarks and headlines of Moyes leaving us and how we are so lucky to have him. Everton is bigger than Moyes and always will be.

Matt, I totally agree with your original statement and have said so numerous times on this site. A foreign manager is the way forward and there are plenty of people out there who could do a better job.

Everton under Moyes are a complete non-entity. We are not even treading water anymore but sinking fast!

I did not watch the derby for the first time in about 10 years for one simple reason. I knew we would lose. I also turned down a free ticket to Hull for the same reason.

I have no interest in watching any more live matches while Moyes is in charge. I wish he would go so I can start enjoying watching Everton again.

From reading the comments here and hearing the applause for the team after the match, it seems clear to me that this is the level that Everton fans are now comfortable with.

They, in general, seem to be more than happy with poor displays, with players playing out of position, in a negative format, that has little or no sense of creativity, and little hope of scoring goals, and occasionally watching a decent effort even though losing the match.

I honestly don’t know what to think anymore. I can’t think of a time when the Club has been in such a perilous state. The future is problematic on all levels — the ownership of the club, the ground, the management, the players, the finances etc.

At the same time there seems to be a fear about change that is endemic. So, at a playing level, the sort of crap that has been played on and off for the last eight years, and is exemplified in the current run of 1 win in 11 matches, is deemed acceptable.

This certainly contradicts everything I have personally strived for in my life. It also contradicts good business practice. It also will NEVER win any trophies in football. What, therefore, is the point of Everton FC anymore? It has less and less credibility as time goes by. Is this truely acceptable to others????

I don’t want excuses anymore I want solutions. sadly, the solutions being offered appear to be more of the same.

Can we please get over this "4-5-1 is negative" rubbish.

I don’t see a team with a midfield of Heitinga, Pienaar, Fellaini, Cahill & Bily in the midfield as negative!

For those who say nobody else plays it or to quote Alan Kirwin ’no serious team plays it’... well shall we examine the facts:

Liverpool - have never played 2 strikers in ages, they always play 4-5-1.

Man Utd have actually spent most of the last few seasons playing 1 up front, have had to change since the loss of Ronaldo, but it is still effectively 4-5-1 (everybody calls it 4-3-3 but that's just cos it's Man Utd)

Arsenal only play with 1 up front, Villa do, Chelsea used to until they found a way of playing Drogba & Anelka together.

So whether you call it 4-5-1 if you want to complain or 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 even, the formation is effectively the same.

“Everton by playing the longball the majority of the time are completely dissecting the whole of their midfield”

“This hopeful long ball up to their single striker up front is often aimless and results in a loss of possession”

“This kind of football is too one-dimensional to be a success in the modern day premier league”.

A pretty daming assessment of our style of play.

Most will say Moyes has limited options and so must play square pegs in round holes. But it's not about Arteta being injured and Saha and Pienaar only being half fit. It says more about the mentality of our first team coaching and more importantly our manager.

Under Moyes we will never play attractive football. This is fair enough — not everyone preaches the Ajax total football philosophy. But at the same time what I want to see is a team go and out with belief that they can win.

Maybe it is time for Moyes to move on. I have now have had enough of him and his attitude.