The Mail Bag
Moyes's Record - The Case For the Prosecution
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Apologies for the salt going into the wounds after that (yet again) all too often soul-destroying surrender in the Derby.
First off, I like David Moyes, I think he stands for dignity and integrity, he's the type of man you could have a pint with and genuinely like the bloke.
But I hate our gameplan everytime the Sky 4 are in town, it just sickens me, I grew up on the Harvey, Kendall, Royle, Kendall teams where every Derby / Man Utd match was a battle royale contest where the opposition had to fight us to win, our lads were always up for it regardless of league position; yes the opposition always had the quality but I always took heart from the effort our boys put in regardless of that.
Here’s a sobering set of figures of Moyes's record against the Sky 4 and Tottenham. It's not very impressive... personally I think it's something to be ashamed of.
Man Utd
Moyes's Team - P15 W1 D3 L11
We've beaten Man Utd only twice since the 1995 Cup Final.
Chelsea
Moyes's Team - P22 W0 D9 L13
We haven’t beaten Chelsea at all in the last 24 games.
Liverpool
Moyes's Team - P18 W3 D5 L10
We have beaten Liverpool only 4 times in the last 26 games.
Arsenal
Moyes's Team - P19 W3 D4 L12
Tottenham
Moyes's Team - P16 W4 D4 L8
TOTAL FOR ALL THOSE GAMES
Moyes Team - P90 W11 D25 L54
Those stats as a proud Evertonian of over 25 years absolutely break my heart. Personally I think it would be best for all if Davey went to Celtic in the summer. I like the man but in football terms the above figures speaks for itself
Declan Brown, Posted 07/02/2010 at 18:39:53
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I found a great website - evertonresults.com - and checked back through the years to 1962/63, Liverpools first year back in the top division.
According to my maths, which is not perfect, we have played them 94 times in the league, this is the outcome.
P94 W20 D32 L42
Obviously a lot of these years coincided with Liverpools most successful spells, as well as ours, but it makes pretty poor reading, I have only seen Everton win 20 league games against Liverpool in the 50 yrs I have been a supporter.
We have beaten them a few times in cup competitions (from 1962) but never in a semi or final, they winning 2 semis and 4 finals if I remember correctly (FA Cup, 2 finals, 2 semis, League Cup Final and Screensport Cup, played only because we were all banned out of Europe, ironic they won it and beat us in the Final, unreal!).
As regards Mr Moyes, I think he has it in him to win a trophy, but the attitude his teams display wont allow it to happen until he allows the team to express itself, with imaginative substitutions, the game was crying out for Coleman to assist Donavon who was fighting a losing battle on Saturday, but thats what always happens, we make subs too late and so bleeding obvious that the opposing manager does not need to change anything.
According to my maths, which is not perfect, we have played them 94 times in the league, this is the outcome.
P94 W20 D32 L42
Obviously a lot of these years coincided with Liverpools most successful spells, as well as ours, but it makes pretty poor reading, I have only seen Everton win 20 league games against Liverpool in the 50 yrs I have been a supporter.
We have beaten them a few times in cup competitions (from 1962) but never in a semi or final, they winning 2 semis and 4 finals if I remember correctly (FA Cup, 2 finals, 2 semis, League Cup Final and Screensport Cup, played only because we were all banned out of Europe, ironic they won it and beat us in the Final, unreal!).
As regards Mr Moyes, I think he has it in him to win a trophy, but the attitude his teams display wont allow it to happen until he allows the team to express itself, with imaginative substitutions, the game was crying out for Coleman to assist Donavon who was fighting a losing battle on Saturday, but thats what always happens, we make subs too late and so bleeding obvious that the opposing manager does not need to change anything.
Mmmm, nothing else needs to be said, does it?
Thanks Declan for the sadly depressing the stats that say it all. :-(
Thanks Declan for the sadly depressing the stats that say it all. :-(
Jesus !
Can’t wait for Wednesday now.
Especially having watched Chelsea dismantle Arsenal on Sunday.
Can’t wait for Wednesday now.
Especially having watched Chelsea dismantle Arsenal on Sunday.
It’s depressing when you look at it like that, and they are the teams we want to be winning, considering we still class ourselves as a "big club" and a "top five" club, yet our results against the teams who we want to challenge are appaling.
However, I think if you compared the likes of; Villa and Spurs’ record against the top four it would read the same, if not worse, and we are more matched to Spurs and Villa than we are the top four.
On the other hand, our general performances against the big four is pathetic, I think Villa and Spurs give the likes of United and Chelsea more of a fight and don’t just lie down and accept defeat, which is becoming our speciality under David Moyes.
United away this season - was there even any point in our team turning up if we was going to put in a performance like that? United didn’t even try, yet still put three past us
Liverpool away, what hasn’t been said already? the game was there for the taking, apparently Liverpool’s worst team in four decades, yet we allow them to score and then control the full second half, we bottled it once again.
Chelsea in the FA Cup Final, we go infront and then as spineless and gutless as you could be, we roll over and bottle it big time and, almost like we were apologising to Chelsea for having the cheek to score, we let them command the game and score twice.
We’d of probably won the FA Cup and the Derby under Joe Royle, because that team had no respect for anyone, players didn’t go to the papers before the match and mouth off, and the manager didn’t show his respect for the opposition.
However, I think if you compared the likes of; Villa and Spurs’ record against the top four it would read the same, if not worse, and we are more matched to Spurs and Villa than we are the top four.
On the other hand, our general performances against the big four is pathetic, I think Villa and Spurs give the likes of United and Chelsea more of a fight and don’t just lie down and accept defeat, which is becoming our speciality under David Moyes.
United away this season - was there even any point in our team turning up if we was going to put in a performance like that? United didn’t even try, yet still put three past us
Liverpool away, what hasn’t been said already? the game was there for the taking, apparently Liverpool’s worst team in four decades, yet we allow them to score and then control the full second half, we bottled it once again.
Chelsea in the FA Cup Final, we go infront and then as spineless and gutless as you could be, we roll over and bottle it big time and, almost like we were apologising to Chelsea for having the cheek to score, we let them command the game and score twice.
We’d of probably won the FA Cup and the Derby under Joe Royle, because that team had no respect for anyone, players didn’t go to the papers before the match and mouth off, and the manager didn’t show his respect for the opposition.
Dave Lynch don’t panic. I dreamt last night about the match on 29 April 1978 when we beat Chelsea 6-0. Actually I always had it — though I could’nt remember the date — as 8-0 and it poured down the whole game. Joe Royle and David Johnston were the stars that night under the lights. Well it could happen again especially if Chelsea fail to turn up! Nil desperandum might be a good change of motto for us! Incidentally, does anyone else remember that game?
You missed out the transfer budget stat for each team... just saying like.
Or is Moyes twat for not signing Drogba, Henry, Ronaldo, ladyboy... etc with magic beans and monopoly money pulled from Kenwright’s arse?
Let's say we dump Moyes and Sir Alex takes the job on... or even Benitez — do you really think it would make much of a difference against the finances of that lot you quote (Notice Man City isn’t on the list — very revealing)
I blame Moyes on Saturday for being unimaginative in his substitutions and for not altering the game plan when things went tits up with Screech being carried off — I don’t think I’ve ever been so gutted at an Anfield deby... but my finger of blame points at Moyes AND three or four senior professionals who need a lesson in A) pride in wearing the blue shirt and B) keeping their fucking heads when all about them are losing theirs
But lets put this in perspective... how many defeats in the last 10 games?
One??? — fuck me!... some crisis
Blame Moyes - Same old Same old how crap his tactics are.
Now hands up who would have expected Arteta to replace Fellani on Sat?
Personally I expected the Moyes of old to have put on Coleman, and moved Neville to holding midfield.
What he does is make a positive move and he is slated.
I know he is being slated for that change specifically but cut the guy some slack.
He is probably the best manager in the clubs history, with what he has had to work with and against to into consideration (i.e. no money, and teams with a shit load of money to play against).
Simply it is a poor record but who would have done better for us?
Walter Smith, Howard Kendall (again), Mike Walker anyone? I do not think so.
Now hands up who would have expected Arteta to replace Fellani on Sat?
Personally I expected the Moyes of old to have put on Coleman, and moved Neville to holding midfield.
What he does is make a positive move and he is slated.
I know he is being slated for that change specifically but cut the guy some slack.
He is probably the best manager in the clubs history, with what he has had to work with and against to into consideration (i.e. no money, and teams with a shit load of money to play against).
Simply it is a poor record but who would have done better for us?
Walter Smith, Howard Kendall (again), Mike Walker anyone? I do not think so.
Go back to sleep Craig, your’e pissed again!!
@Tony Waring. Yup.. It was Latchford. Neither Royle nor DJ were at the club. But you’re right about the scoreline. Not quite a great team but 95% better than the shite that played on Saturday.
While I admit that there are a number of times, especially against Liverpool that we seem to be clueless, it wasn’t too long ago that we went to Arsenal and really, even Wenger said, we deserved to win 3-1 not draw 2-2. I can think of quite a few other games as well where we have been ’unlucky’. The stats though are right (though the Spurs one looks different if you look at it say, last 3 seasons,, W2 D3 L1 if you interested).
Thing is we not the only team in this situation, think Spuds and Villa don’t have exactly startling records to a point was sure it was mentioned the other week that one team hadn’t won away at the big for 11 years or something.
Do we get rid of Moyes though? Come on are we being serious with that?
The saturday performance was dire, and I fear we are in for the month from hell but no way on sacking Moyes and realistically, for at least the first few seasons our team was shocking. Moyes has built slowly and yes he is subject to be reticent to make subs but he has built and I believe we are still improving, despite a season to forget.
And in football terms Moyes record does in my opinion speak for itself, from where he was when he came here to where we are now, it shows he done a good job, so good he making us impatient.
Interestingly, old Walter apparently never beat Spurs in the league, though in the 3-2 defeat in 2000, Nyarko and Jeffers scored. Oh happy days!
Thing is we not the only team in this situation, think Spuds and Villa don’t have exactly startling records to a point was sure it was mentioned the other week that one team hadn’t won away at the big for 11 years or something.
Do we get rid of Moyes though? Come on are we being serious with that?
The saturday performance was dire, and I fear we are in for the month from hell but no way on sacking Moyes and realistically, for at least the first few seasons our team was shocking. Moyes has built slowly and yes he is subject to be reticent to make subs but he has built and I believe we are still improving, despite a season to forget.
And in football terms Moyes record does in my opinion speak for itself, from where he was when he came here to where we are now, it shows he done a good job, so good he making us impatient.
Interestingly, old Walter apparently never beat Spurs in the league, though in the 3-2 defeat in 2000, Nyarko and Jeffers scored. Oh happy days!
As is touched upon above, I’m afraid those stats don’t actually mean anything at all without context.
What are the records of other, comparable clubs against the ’Big Four’ in that time (I’m thinking Tottenham, Aston Villa and perhaps Man City). What was Everton’s record against ’top four’ clubs in other periods (say, the 90s) and then, what have our league positions been compared to comparable clubs in Moyes’ time as manager.
Without this information to provide context, then I’m afraid Declan’s stats are pretty much meaningless, for all we know they could represent a better than average record.
So in direct response to Joe McMahon, I’d say a lot more needs to be said, because all we’ve got at the moment is "we don’t do very well against the best and richest teams". Nor does anyone else, that’s because they’re the richest, and its what makes them the best.
What are the records of other, comparable clubs against the ’Big Four’ in that time (I’m thinking Tottenham, Aston Villa and perhaps Man City). What was Everton’s record against ’top four’ clubs in other periods (say, the 90s) and then, what have our league positions been compared to comparable clubs in Moyes’ time as manager.
Without this information to provide context, then I’m afraid Declan’s stats are pretty much meaningless, for all we know they could represent a better than average record.
So in direct response to Joe McMahon, I’d say a lot more needs to be said, because all we’ve got at the moment is "we don’t do very well against the best and richest teams". Nor does anyone else, that’s because they’re the richest, and its what makes them the best.
What a silly argument. As Paul said i wonder how many other teams have a better record against the sky 4?
Wow, now that has suprised me. Is this in anyway linked to the fact......that these teams are always in the top four?
And does that mean, they are always in the Champions League?
And that must mean they earn more money?
Which results in better players and a stronger squad?
There is no secret formula, or failures on the managers part. Or any other manger in the Premier League. Countless managers, of countless teams all with varying tactics and standards of players have tried to break into the top four. And nobody has been able to do it for years. You have to rely on them having an off day when you play against them, as if both teams play to their best, 9 times out of 10 they will beat you. They have higher paid players and managers, which most of the time will give a higher level of performance. I always look at the key players of each team. So we have Gallas, Fabregas, Van Persie. Then Terry, Lampard, Drogba. Ferdinand, Carrick Rooney. Carragher, Gerrard, Torres. And on our best day, we have Jagielka, Arteta, Yakubu. Are the players we can afford, really capable of playing better than our those I mentioned? I think only Arteta would be more of a key player, and thats only ahead of Carrick.
Managers and all sorts of other people have analysed videos of these teams playing for thousands of hours, and nobody has come up with anything that gives a consistent victory over these teams. They are certainly not invincible, you just need better players to consistently beat them.
Liverpool were playing for a draw, and got lthe result with a set piece. They never pushed forward, and gave us no time on the ball in their half. Our best player went off injured, and Mikel came on and was out of sorts as you would expect. It was a poor performance, and we deservedly got beat. But its very unfair given it is on the back of a 9 match unbeaten run, to think we should sack the manager.
I heard someone suggest Mark Hughes would be a better choice of manager. How many times has he beat the top four? You name any replacement that we can afford, and would come to us, and ask the same question. I am pretty sure you will get a resounding ’computer says no..’
I sincerely hope we can sort out the stadium issue, and give Moyes some real money to play with. Once he can at least come close to competing with the top four on a financial field, then he can be more accurately measured against those teams. But to do it now, is not a fair assessment.
And does that mean, they are always in the Champions League?
And that must mean they earn more money?
Which results in better players and a stronger squad?
There is no secret formula, or failures on the managers part. Or any other manger in the Premier League. Countless managers, of countless teams all with varying tactics and standards of players have tried to break into the top four. And nobody has been able to do it for years. You have to rely on them having an off day when you play against them, as if both teams play to their best, 9 times out of 10 they will beat you. They have higher paid players and managers, which most of the time will give a higher level of performance. I always look at the key players of each team. So we have Gallas, Fabregas, Van Persie. Then Terry, Lampard, Drogba. Ferdinand, Carrick Rooney. Carragher, Gerrard, Torres. And on our best day, we have Jagielka, Arteta, Yakubu. Are the players we can afford, really capable of playing better than our those I mentioned? I think only Arteta would be more of a key player, and thats only ahead of Carrick.
Managers and all sorts of other people have analysed videos of these teams playing for thousands of hours, and nobody has come up with anything that gives a consistent victory over these teams. They are certainly not invincible, you just need better players to consistently beat them.
Liverpool were playing for a draw, and got lthe result with a set piece. They never pushed forward, and gave us no time on the ball in their half. Our best player went off injured, and Mikel came on and was out of sorts as you would expect. It was a poor performance, and we deservedly got beat. But its very unfair given it is on the back of a 9 match unbeaten run, to think we should sack the manager.
I heard someone suggest Mark Hughes would be a better choice of manager. How many times has he beat the top four? You name any replacement that we can afford, and would come to us, and ask the same question. I am pretty sure you will get a resounding ’computer says no..’
I sincerely hope we can sort out the stadium issue, and give Moyes some real money to play with. Once he can at least come close to competing with the top four on a financial field, then he can be more accurately measured against those teams. But to do it now, is not a fair assessment.
Well if you really want to depress yourself.
These stats are based on results from 1990 - end of Walter and are against the teams listed above. It should be remember that that Russian hadn’t bought Chelsea in 1990 and was quite a time coming. Also could argue Spuds were hit and miss over this period too and that. But taking all that into account here they are.
Man Utd
90-94 H Kendall Pld 8 W2 D1 L5
94-95 M Walker Pld 2 W0 D0 L2
94-96 J Royle Pld 6 W2 D1 L3
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W0 D0 L2
98-02 W Smith Pld 8 W0 D1 L7
Chelsea
90-94 H Kendall Pld 9 W2 D3 L4
94-94 J Gabriel Pld 1 W0 D0 L1
94-95 M Walker Pld 1 W1 D0 L0
94-96 J Royle Pld 5 W1 D4 L0
97 D Watson Pld 1 W0 D0 L1
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W1 D0 L1
98-02 W Smith Pld 7 W1 D4 L2
Liverpool
90-94 H Kendall Pld 9 W3 D3 L3
94-95 M Walker Pld 1 W0 D0 L1
94-96 J Royle Pld 5 W2 D3 L0
97 D Watson Pld 1 W0 D1 L0
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W1 D1 L0
98-02 W Smith Pld 8 W1 D3 L4
Arsenal
90 C Harvey Pld 1 W0 D1 L0
90-94 H Kendall Pld 6 W1 D1 L4
94-95 M Walker Pld 2 W0 D2 L0
94-96 J Royle Pld 5 W1 D1 L3
97 D Watson Pld --
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W0 D1 L1
98-02 W Smith Pld 7 W1 D0 L6
Spuds
90-94 H Kendall Pld 7 W1 D3 L3
94-95 M Walker Pld 2 W0 D0 L2
94-96 J Royle Pld 5 W1 D4 L0
97 D Watson Pld 1 W1 D0 L0
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W0 D1 L1
98-02 W Smith Pld 8 W0 D4 L4
H Kendall (90-94) Pld39 W9 D11 L19
M Walker (94-95) Pld8 W1 D2 L5
J Royle (94-96) Pld26 W7 D13 L6
H Kendall (97-98) Pld10 W2 D3 L5
W Smith (98-02) Pld38 W3 D12 L23
Combined total 1990 - Moyes of Pld 121 W22 D41 L58
Interesting stats to note:
Mike Walker had a 100% win ratio against Chelsea, Joe Royle has the best overall record, though again I would remove Chelsea as being ’Big 4’ back then.
Maybe more important, between 1990 and Moyes we beat Spurs 3 times in 25 games and Man U 4 times in 26 games, Arsenal we beat 3 times.
The stats were as good as I could make after a long day, there may be errors, they maybe (are) a bit depressing.
These stats are based on results from 1990 - end of Walter and are against the teams listed above. It should be remember that that Russian hadn’t bought Chelsea in 1990 and was quite a time coming. Also could argue Spuds were hit and miss over this period too and that. But taking all that into account here they are.
Man Utd
90-94 H Kendall Pld 8 W2 D1 L5
94-95 M Walker Pld 2 W0 D0 L2
94-96 J Royle Pld 6 W2 D1 L3
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W0 D0 L2
98-02 W Smith Pld 8 W0 D1 L7
Chelsea
90-94 H Kendall Pld 9 W2 D3 L4
94-94 J Gabriel Pld 1 W0 D0 L1
94-95 M Walker Pld 1 W1 D0 L0
94-96 J Royle Pld 5 W1 D4 L0
97 D Watson Pld 1 W0 D0 L1
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W1 D0 L1
98-02 W Smith Pld 7 W1 D4 L2
Liverpool
90-94 H Kendall Pld 9 W3 D3 L3
94-95 M Walker Pld 1 W0 D0 L1
94-96 J Royle Pld 5 W2 D3 L0
97 D Watson Pld 1 W0 D1 L0
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W1 D1 L0
98-02 W Smith Pld 8 W1 D3 L4
Arsenal
90 C Harvey Pld 1 W0 D1 L0
90-94 H Kendall Pld 6 W1 D1 L4
94-95 M Walker Pld 2 W0 D2 L0
94-96 J Royle Pld 5 W1 D1 L3
97 D Watson Pld --
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W0 D1 L1
98-02 W Smith Pld 7 W1 D0 L6
Spuds
90-94 H Kendall Pld 7 W1 D3 L3
94-95 M Walker Pld 2 W0 D0 L2
94-96 J Royle Pld 5 W1 D4 L0
97 D Watson Pld 1 W1 D0 L0
97-98 H Kendall Pld 2 W0 D1 L1
98-02 W Smith Pld 8 W0 D4 L4
H Kendall (90-94) Pld39 W9 D11 L19
M Walker (94-95) Pld8 W1 D2 L5
J Royle (94-96) Pld26 W7 D13 L6
H Kendall (97-98) Pld10 W2 D3 L5
W Smith (98-02) Pld38 W3 D12 L23
Combined total 1990 - Moyes of Pld 121 W22 D41 L58
Interesting stats to note:
Mike Walker had a 100% win ratio against Chelsea, Joe Royle has the best overall record, though again I would remove Chelsea as being ’Big 4’ back then.
Maybe more important, between 1990 and Moyes we beat Spurs 3 times in 25 games and Man U 4 times in 26 games, Arsenal we beat 3 times.
The stats were as good as I could make after a long day, there may be errors, they maybe (are) a bit depressing.
Statistical series are a source of great satisfaction. The problem comes with interpretation. What does our record against the Sky 4 tell us? That if we had beaten them regularly we would be a top 4 side, provided we did not lose some of the games we actually won. But we are definately not a top 4 side.
As others have said, without a comparison with other teams which also have our limited resources these figures are meaningless. They do, however, give contributors the opportunity engage in flights of fancy which they like to represent as fact
As others have said, without a comparison with other teams which also have our limited resources these figures are meaningless. They do, however, give contributors the opportunity engage in flights of fancy which they like to represent as fact
Blimey nice work Davie.
Of course I hate to point out that Chelsea stats from the 90s don’t really count as they were (relatively) shit then, but you’ve worked harder than me on this so I feel a bit mean.
What info we have got certainly doesn’t condemn David Moyes though. We’re the fifth best team in the Premier League on a consistent basis, whilst certainly NOT being the fifth biggest net spenders on transfers and wages.
Of course I hate to point out that Chelsea stats from the 90s don’t really count as they were (relatively) shit then, but you’ve worked harder than me on this so I feel a bit mean.
What info we have got certainly doesn’t condemn David Moyes though. We’re the fifth best team in the Premier League on a consistent basis, whilst certainly NOT being the fifth biggest net spenders on transfers and wages.
I hope he got annoyed with Benitez’s comments today because the fat waiter said what every blue thought, even though Moyes thought we played well, for once I agreed with him and hope it struck a nerve somewhere, because I am sick of bullshit post match views, does he think we are all thick?
http://tomkinstimes.com/2009/10/the-cost-of-premiership-success/
I have just found this info, which seems to be a study of money spent by all clubs. Our wage budget is less than half of Liverpool, Arsenal and United. And more sickeningly, just a third of Chelseas.
It shows what a tough task it is to finance a team that competes. Pound for Pound, Fulham seem to have come out the highest, finishing six places above their respective wage bill position last year. We managed to finish five places above our respective wage bill position.
I have just found this info, which seems to be a study of money spent by all clubs. Our wage budget is less than half of Liverpool, Arsenal and United. And more sickeningly, just a third of Chelseas.
It shows what a tough task it is to finance a team that competes. Pound for Pound, Fulham seem to have come out the highest, finishing six places above their respective wage bill position last year. We managed to finish five places above our respective wage bill position.
The thing that is interesting about those stats to me Mike is they do follow the old ’Big 5’ from the formation of the ’great’ Premierleague Everton, Man U, Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool. The Chelsea one is I agree the odd one, being as Rich Russian hasn’t been there since 1990. But even then, our record against them when they were mere financial mortals doesn’t make pretty reading.
Infact all these stats just emphasise one thing. From 1990 on Everton went into steep and dramatic decline, infact if it were not for teams seemingly self imploding in the last 20 years (Leeds, Newcastle and to an extent maybe even Forrest and Man City) Everton’s decline may have been seen as huge.
The thing is by mere point of the fact we now regularly finish top6 we can see that Everton have improved over the Moyes era. The big questions are is that improvement still happening and where do we expect to see it?
My answers.
Is the improvement still happening, yes, even with horrific injuries the last year we have done well, if not as well as I would have liked this season.
Is the improvement still happening? Yes for me, Felliani has started to shine, I hope this time next season we saying the same about Bily and have a team with a fully fit Arteta and Jags. Felliani and Heitanga have come in for huge stick here and elsewhere but I think both, now are looking excellent players. If we can get our first team out, in the summer add a couple of extra squad players and get the best out of BIly the future is very good. Oh also hoping there that we can sign Donovan permanently, which may not happen, but if rumours are true that Donovan came on loan to ’try the European experience again’ before giving it a full new shot, we have to be in with a good chance.
If I had time the eve I would do a statistical run down of Everton’s results against the top4 teams every season since 1990 see if that throws up any intrigue.. Maybe another day.
Infact all these stats just emphasise one thing. From 1990 on Everton went into steep and dramatic decline, infact if it were not for teams seemingly self imploding in the last 20 years (Leeds, Newcastle and to an extent maybe even Forrest and Man City) Everton’s decline may have been seen as huge.
The thing is by mere point of the fact we now regularly finish top6 we can see that Everton have improved over the Moyes era. The big questions are is that improvement still happening and where do we expect to see it?
My answers.
Is the improvement still happening, yes, even with horrific injuries the last year we have done well, if not as well as I would have liked this season.
Is the improvement still happening? Yes for me, Felliani has started to shine, I hope this time next season we saying the same about Bily and have a team with a fully fit Arteta and Jags. Felliani and Heitanga have come in for huge stick here and elsewhere but I think both, now are looking excellent players. If we can get our first team out, in the summer add a couple of extra squad players and get the best out of BIly the future is very good. Oh also hoping there that we can sign Donovan permanently, which may not happen, but if rumours are true that Donovan came on loan to ’try the European experience again’ before giving it a full new shot, we have to be in with a good chance.
If I had time the eve I would do a statistical run down of Everton’s results against the top4 teams every season since 1990 see if that throws up any intrigue.. Maybe another day.
Davie I hope you enjoy that sort of thing, otherwise its unlikely to be worth it. My limited knowledge of stats tells me things are likely to be pretty even over that amount of time. I agree with you over the improvements, however your phrase "in the summer add a couple of extra squad players" worries me, because I’ve thought the same thing every year for the last five and we always end up cocking it up somehow. We need a right winger and another winger/creative midfielder, the rest is basically in place. Will we do it, and do it early? It would break the pattern of recent history if we do.
As for Dan Brierley’s link, some excellent info there, really quite gratifying to see Spurs bottom of the points per millions spent table as well.
As for Dan Brierley’s link, some excellent info there, really quite gratifying to see Spurs bottom of the points per millions spent table as well.
Must admit I enjoy statistics, though usually, I wait for someone to put some up first, because, you can, in all honesty with the right statistics, show improvements under Moyes, stagnation under Moyes and reverse gear under Moyes, it how they work and football is beautifully complex.
My guess is we use them to show are own narrative on how we see the game, problems are that those narratives are usually based purely on emotion, they gloriously not subjective in the main (some are but most fans as purely trying to show that what they feel is right).
After the performance at the weekend, that narrative for many will be quite negative, we never got anywhere, our big players freeze (in one thread Pienaar was singled out, ’when was the last time he looked a matchwinner against the big 4?’ was asked'; well how about Arsenal last month?).
Another narrative seen a lot is ’football has lost its soul, money is everything, it the domain of the few and the rest just make up numbers’.
In the main the last 3 days we seen narratives that suggest:
A) Moyes is crap or Moyes will never win anything
B) The Players are crap
C) The Premier League is crap
I understand all three. But I am a rediculous optimist, I somehow believe with no real evidence other than a realm of stats that Everton are going somewhere and with patience but also weathering the disappointment (that word doesn’t do the feeling justice) we will get somewhere and prove that those three narratives are wrong.
As for signings in the Summer, I’d be daft to think we’d get it all done early! (Execpt Mucha ). But our first choice team should be a match for anyone on its day, I’ll see you in September see how we get on though.
I would like Donovan to sign though, bracing for disappointment there mind!
My guess is we use them to show are own narrative on how we see the game, problems are that those narratives are usually based purely on emotion, they gloriously not subjective in the main (some are but most fans as purely trying to show that what they feel is right).
After the performance at the weekend, that narrative for many will be quite negative, we never got anywhere, our big players freeze (in one thread Pienaar was singled out, ’when was the last time he looked a matchwinner against the big 4?’ was asked'; well how about Arsenal last month?).
Another narrative seen a lot is ’football has lost its soul, money is everything, it the domain of the few and the rest just make up numbers’.
In the main the last 3 days we seen narratives that suggest:
A) Moyes is crap or Moyes will never win anything
B) The Players are crap
C) The Premier League is crap
I understand all three. But I am a rediculous optimist, I somehow believe with no real evidence other than a realm of stats that Everton are going somewhere and with patience but also weathering the disappointment (that word doesn’t do the feeling justice) we will get somewhere and prove that those three narratives are wrong.
As for signings in the Summer, I’d be daft to think we’d get it all done early! (Execpt Mucha ). But our first choice team should be a match for anyone on its day, I’ll see you in September see how we get on though.
I would like Donovan to sign though, bracing for disappointment there mind!
A little less gratifying to see Spurs above us in the REAL table.
But this is a discussion for the pure of heart and no place for a cynical Moyes Out bugger like me.
But this is a discussion for the pure of heart and no place for a cynical Moyes Out bugger like me.
Having read several Mail Bag posts today, it seems like time to say...Neville needs to go. Period.
He’d be an average sub. But he has no pace and no quality. Frankly he’s embarrassing. Also he’s holding Donovan back. Frankly on a planet with 6 billion people, there has to be a taller, faster, stronger right back who can raid down the right flank and make the occasional intelligent pass to Donovan.
He’s just taking up a roster spot.
He’d be an average sub. But he has no pace and no quality. Frankly he’s embarrassing. Also he’s holding Donovan back. Frankly on a planet with 6 billion people, there has to be a taller, faster, stronger right back who can raid down the right flank and make the occasional intelligent pass to Donovan.
He’s just taking up a roster spot.
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1 Posted 08/02/2010 at 14:41:18
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