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The Mail Bag

Respect

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I dont understand some posters who criticise David Moyes unequivocally. This is the best squad I have known since 1984-85. 25 years have passed and we have some dignity again (although the 86-87 League winning season shouldn't pass without mention... but remember the Spring of '87 and how results panned out leading up to our Canon League triumph — bizarre and not unfavourable to us).

A '95 Cup win apart, this is the best I have felt as a Blue for a long, long time. Remember the late 80s, most of the 90s... I remember a home game against Crystal Palace c 1993 0-0, 23,000 crowd —quite good compared to the 13,000 I was with as a 13-year-old in the Paddock against Coventry on 31 December 1983...

Then there where the early 2000's under Walter Smith. Remember (in no particular order of preference of ineptitude):

Gerrard (vs Howard);
Barrett/Holmes (Neville);
Tiler/Keeley (Jagielka);
Clarke/Bilic (Heitinga);
Michael Ball [never rated him, but good Blue — so am I, but not good enough]/Hottiger (Baines);
Adams/Blomqvist/Alexandersson (Donovan);
Williamson/Linderoth/Thomsen/Nyarko (Fellaini; Arteta);
Preki/Wilson (Pienaar);
Madar/Bakayoko/Barlow/Angell/Branch (Saha/Yakubu)

You all can add a lot more inadequate names from the past; but my point — none of the present cause you embarassment (even if you can name better footballers)? And you have your dignity now; dont you?
Mike Jones, Liverpool     Posted 18/02/2010 at 21:58:28

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Michael Kenrick
Well, sorry to be a dissenting voice, but I beg to differ.

I think the squad form that period that actually won something — under the manger that actually won something! — were streets ahead of anything we have seen under David Moyes. As a team (I don't care about this place-by-place comparison), they achieved what Moyes's teams — so overhyped for "teamspirit" — have notably failed to achieve. THEY WON SOMETHING!!!

And that fantastic success, against tremendous odds, was followed by the purchase of perhaps the best footballer in England at the time (1995) — from of all people, Manchester United! — Our vanquished foe!

One of my all-time favouirite Everton players to watch, a player who knew exactly where the goal was, a player who was encouraged (no doubt) by our attack-minded manager to attack with pace and shoot with accuracy — the incomparable Andre Kanchelskis. We have not seen the like since...

Wining the cup in 1995 felt absolutely fantastic. 1000 times better than drawing 0-0 with Man Utd 14 years later and getting through to an utterly dismal Cup Final performance on a penalty shoot-out. That's the current highlight under Moyes. Parking the fucking bus for the umpteenth time, against Man U Reserves, and grabbing a 0-0 draw, not even scoring from the odd set piece in the course of play, but on a fucking penalty shoot-out. Give me strength...

Talking of dignity and pride. We had that in spades under Joe Royle, wining the FA Cup and then coming a very creditable 6th in the league.

What do we really have under Moyes? Plenty of potential, plenty of promise... but every season it seems, there are the incredible long-term injuries, and the increasingly pathetic pre-season (lack of) preparation. Then, excuse after excuse for a perennial failure to perform at the highest level with any degree of consistency... except consistently not delivering any trophies, consistently falling short.

You know what? I'm heartily sick of it. This season was supposedly getting better but the loss of Fellaini is likely to be a real blow. No doubt under adversity, Moyes will glue the remnants back together and we will strive manfully for a creditable eight or another "Magnificent Seventh" (vomit).

No, I have some fine memories from the pre-Moyes era. He is not a manager that makes me proud because I don't feel proud watching the type of football he has us play, and I don't think I ever will. You can point to the odd game... but the overall feeling is one of total negativity from this manager.

So no, I have Zero Respect for Moyes. I want the Everton manager to be POSITIVE! With the players he has had, we could and should have been so much better... (Yes. I know he chose them: the one thing he seems to be good at...) We're not, and that pains me every time I watch us play. And It has done for what seems to be an awful long time now. So sorry... No respect from me.

Jason Lam
1   Posted 19/02/2010 at 04:10:27

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The difference between the 1995 FA Cup winning team and todays is that the 95 team consists of Men. Men who stood up and be counted. You could trust their decision making, leadership, and initative on the pitch. Men without fear. Men with balls.

Today’s team is picked by Moyes who will forever have that inferiority complex against so called sky4, referees with reputations, which is an exact mirror of the mindset of the current manager. Today’s boys will always accept second-best. ’Best of the Rest’ is what we hear too often. Results and finances are one thing, but Everton should not lie down without fucking trying to be the best.

Where the fuck are traces of Big Dunc, Stubbs, Cars, Rhino in this team? Gone, DNA kicked out of the system by Moyes.

It’s the players that do the job on the pitch. Moyes needs to back off by taking a back seat and nurture leaders on the pitch. This lovely small knit group tea party will take us nowhere.
Joey Brown
2   Posted 19/02/2010 at 03:59:35

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Fact is and we can say we should be better all we want but the reason the media says we punch above our weight is because we do. Michael I usually agree with you but if you honestly think that aside from investment anyone could do much better than Moyes does than I’d like to hear a suggestion. These so called brilliant managers usually have something that it seems we will never possess and that is money. Jose Mourinho did the amazing with Porto but you could really argue Moyes did the same when he got 4th. Look at the team he fielded?!

Moyes is limited that’s for sure... but I fucking wouldn’t want any of these other merry go round dumbasses at the helm. And are injuries his fault? Is it Wenger’s fault Van Persie can’t stand up for half a season. Or that he had to play Campbell and Fabianski to combine for one hilarious mess up after another today. Of course not. And we have played brilliant stuff... even Chelsea come out and look school boyish occasionally so why can’t we have some off games.

Fuck, Barca just lost to the shit Atletico has become. If someone could say our squad would be injury free and drama-less next season I’d bet the house on 4th at least and have to think about betting the car on a trophy. We beat up on Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and Sporting recently and, aside from some lucky deflections and a stupid penalty, we looked the better side every time.

I’ll stick with Moyes.

Martin Mason
3   Posted 19/02/2010 at 04:38:14

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The concept that Moyes is beyond reproach is laughable, I’m afraid... as is that of this squad being better than Kendall’s last Championship winning side.

Moyes does some incredibly good things but also some unbelievably bad things and he constantly demonstrates tactical naivety and inflexibility. He is a good honest manager but I don’t believe in luck and the number of injuries at Everton perhaps reflects more on poor preparation of the players than some mythical quality called fortune.

I wouldn’t join the Moyes out campaign because the risk is too high and he isn’t that bad.

Eric Myles
4   Posted 19/02/2010 at 05:34:42

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Mike Jones - are you Bill Kenwright in disguise?
Jimmy Crack
5   Posted 19/02/2010 at 07:16:01

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I love how right when these articles that he disagrees with are posted, Michael immediately has a lengthy well-worded comeback penned
Gavin Ramejkis
6   Posted 19/02/2010 at 07:53:39

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No manager is beyond criticism and that includes the Scottish Grinch and Arsene Whinger who have made mistakes themselves. DM needs to make his team a lot more ruthless in my eyes; attacking the Sky 4 especially Man U who we always seem to bend over for, the RS who still got 6 points off us this season despite being the worst RS side I’ve seen in years and it shouldn’t have taken his entire management spell to beat Chelski.

On far too many occasions he has opted for ultra defensive formations even at home, I can’t give him the benefit of the doubt over players as I’ve seen the same players take team apart. His subtitutions rarely come early enough to change games despite years of practice and even when we are comfortably outplaying a team we rarely put them to the sword and score 5 or more goals. All of the latter you see in top four sides.

I also have to agree that I’m disappointed about the lack of silverware after all these years and our abject recent history in cups, I was a Wembley for both last year’s games and the difference in belief in the final was a disgrace. I was also there during the 80s and in 95 and I knew we would win those games as the team had class and fight in them.
Mike Green
7   Posted 19/02/2010 at 08:16:25

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Silverware... silverware... silverware...

Since we last won the league in ’87 two teams outside the Sky 4 have won the top flight title - Leeds (who subsequently gambled, lost and we know the rest) and Blackburn (had their own version of Abramovich at the time, nought the title and almost threw it away on the last game of the season).

Since we last won the Cup in ’95 one team outside the Top 4 have won it — Portsmouth — who are in great shape now aren’t they?

Under Walter Smith my cousin started going to the game with us — he was 6. His first few games were unremarkable. So unremarkable that he turned to me after five or six games he turned to me and said "don't tell grandad I don't mind if we lose, I just want to see us score..."

So — the two main domestic competitions have been divided up between the Sky 4 for the past 20 years let's say — even during periods when they couldn't give two hoots about one of them. We’ve tried to mix it up by a) being one of the only clubs in recent years to get into Top 4 and b) getting to a Cup Final.

In the FA Cup Final last year there was a moment for me which said it all — we made a change, and from our bench on came Dan Gosling. Chelsea responded. By bringing on the German Captain.

Until Moyes is given the resources to to challenge the Sky 4 fairly, give it a rest — he’s consistently the best of the rest, which until he’s given the cash to do so, is all we can reasonably expect of him.
Mike Green
8   Posted 19/02/2010 at 08:42:24

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Besides — the guys won LMA Manager of the Year a record 3 times, which would indicate to me he’s probably doing his job right and is being let down by factors out of his control.

If he was at another club, I would wager all of the anit-Moyes brigade would be peering over their rose tinted glases, pointing in his direction saying "that's what we need — if we had a manager like Moyes we could really challenge for silverware again...."
David Nicholls
9   Posted 19/02/2010 at 08:18:38

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Mike Jones

I completeley agree that David Moyes deserves far more respect than he is given by some of the posters on here. I think many of his detractors are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think he isn’t doing at least, a decent job.

I’m too young to remember the glory days of the eighties, but I remember bursting with pride as a 15 yr old during the spring and summer of 1995. Thank you Joe Royle.

What followed, seemed to pass by in a flash and before I knew it we were back to the same stage we were in 93-94, fighting for our lives at the wrong end of the table. We were a laughing stock and there seemed to be no light at the end of the tunnel.

Under Moyes our squad has steadily improved year upon year. I know league positions haven’t always reflected this but I doubt many would argue that point. I also feel there are so many positive to the Moyes tenure that get constantly overlooked. The obvious team spirit and apparent harmony within the camp are no coincidence. Moyes does a lot of research into the character of a player before signing them (AVDM aside haha), hence there are no ’Big Time Charlies' in our dressing room. The players in general are all superb ambassadors for the club.

I’m all for criticism of tactics and team selection when it is warranted but surely Moyes deserves some praise for actually putting together our current squad?

Moyes has given us our respect back and our dignity but above all (and I myself might me living in cloud cuckoo land), I also feel he has given us hope that we are on the verge of something special.

So, thank you David Moyes; for that, you have my complete respect
John Andrews
10   Posted 19/02/2010 at 09:12:34

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I believe it is the negativity that Moyes shows whenever we play one of the so-called "Sky 4" that lets him down.

Fair enough we did beat Chelsea but it took a balls out performance at the end to keep our lead.

We should not be afraid of these teams. We should attack them!!!
Gavin Ramejkis
11   Posted 19/02/2010 at 09:35:49

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Mike how many international captains did the Burnley team that beat Man U have in it? Then again how many international captains play for the Wigan side that beat Chelski this season? Last year’s final showed a gaping weakness down the right side within minutes as Osman disappeared and left Hibbert to defend the entire length of the pitch himself hence Malouda was able to tear him a new one.

If Chelski could see that and the majority of Everton supporters there could see it why didn’t the bloke paid handsomely to manage the team see it and do something about it then instead of waiting for the second half to replace Hibbert and not address the huge gap on the wing?

The same mistakes after years isn’t learning.

Colin Southern
12   Posted 19/02/2010 at 10:33:34

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Well at last Michael has shown his true colours. Thats Ok with me if he was just another poster but the problem being is that this negative stance has tarred Toffeeeweb quite badly recently. With the editor interjecting this attititude throughout any discusions that are posted.

I think saying you’ve zero respect for Moyes by comparing this team to previous eras is living in cloud cuckoo land. Forget comparisons with the 80s team and just celebrate them for what they were. Football then was a more open game with several teams challenging for silverware. It isn’t now and won’t be for a long time. Money counts in this league!

Moyes isn’t daft along with most of the managers in the EPL. Unless you’ve got the players who can mix it with the top 4 forget it. If you go gungho in this league you’ll get beat 6-0 every week. Against the top 4 you’ve got to keep it tight and try to force a goal.

Maybe we should change Toffeeweb’s name to Fantasy FootballWeb.
Steve Collins
13   Posted 19/02/2010 at 10:47:52

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Mike Jones - It’s pointless defending Moyes on this website.

The same unrealistic blinkered boo boys come out and criticise him and you when you do.

It’s ridiculous really. Moyes has been a godsend to Everton we have got back to where we should be battling at the right have of the table. That's not to say I love Moyes. I believe he is crap in certain areas.

Yes, we should be doing a lot better overall and I for one want to see the glory days again. But I fear most Everton fans have become very unrealistic. Before you start, I’m not just accepting how we are, I am stating that, yes, we could do better and derserve to...

But to continuously critisice a manager who has stabilised the form of the team and who did it without any major funding is stupid.

Eventually Moyes will leave and if our board and financial situation haven improve there are not many other managers who could come in and get the best out of our tiny squad which lacks depth.

There is no point talking about beautiful attacking football and managers who believe in that system if we have no way of becoming a team like that financially.
Colin Southern
14   Posted 19/02/2010 at 11:03:39

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Gavin, its got nothing to do with ’the same mistakes after years isn’t learning.

Do you really think Moyes wanted to put in 2 players like Hibbert and Ossie knowing they were unfit and injured or do you think its more to do with lack of squad players and finance to be able to replace them?

Year-in, year-out, since Moyes has been here the squad has improved and so has the football. Come on let's have some reality and take off them blue-tinted glasses. It's all about the finance. Unless we we get it, then we’re gonna have to patient.
Dave Lynch
15   Posted 19/02/2010 at 11:19:26

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Bollox! It’s not about the finance, it’s about football tactics.

Just because you don’t have the money to spend 20 million on a player or two doesn’t mean you have to lie down and get shafted, as we perrenially do when it comes to the big games (Chelsea apart for one game).

Moyes has always had the mindset of: "We have a point, so let’s not lose it." The football is average to say the least and at times embarrassing. Aka Hull City away.

Let’s see how he sets us up against Man Utd on Saturday... my guess is it will be hoofball for the best part of the game.

David Booth
16   Posted 19/02/2010 at 11:18:18

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Why waste money on car, or house insurance? The vast majority of us will never need it.

So yes, let’s get rid of David Moyes, as clearly, we don’t need him either.

I sometimes wish you habitual moaners would have your wishes granted and see who we’re left with and where we end up. The only way to prove you wrong is to see what a mess we’d get into without him.

Who on earth do you think we could get who would do a better job? Stop just complaining about Moyes and give us an alternative and the reasons why you think he would be an preferable option? Because pound-for-pound he’s the best in the business.

Football’s changed beyond recognition since that 1995 cup win (which, in itself, was almost as much as a one-off as Portsmouth’s). Continually referring back to that magnificent win under Joe Royle is judging Moyes by completely irrelevant criteria.

Using Royle as a measurement against Moyes means that, correspondingly, Royle was crap by Kendall’s standards. And so it goes on. A nonsensical comparison.

And writing off last year’s cup final appearance as a non-achievement is ridiculously biased and unfair. We lost by an odd goal to the best team in the country.

We got to the final. We reached the semi-final of the League Cup the season before. We are consistent European qualifiers. We have a very good squad with strength from top to bottom — and all on a shoestring. Name one manager who’s done a better job under the same circumstances?

It’s all academic anyway, as despite all the usual pessimists once again salivating over their keyboards at another chance to slag Moyes off — he’s still here. How wonderfully frustrating for you!
Tommy Coleman
17   Posted 19/02/2010 at 11:27:27

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I’m not trying to be a smart arse here but I am interested to ask all those who believe Moyes is beyond reproach and find it unfair that he gets criticised by fans who use this site.

Moyes has not yet won a trophy in 7 years, so, how many more trophyless years will it be before you believe it will be fair to criticise him?

Plus, are you happy with the style of football we play?

For me, I am not happy with either and believe he deserves the criticism he gets found on this site.
Allan Barratt
18   Posted 19/02/2010 at 11:44:12

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Who was that center back Keeley?? I can’t remember him?
Alan Kirwin
19   Posted 19/02/2010 at 11:28:58

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A good provocative article Mike.

Mr Kenrick clearly got out of someone’s bed the wrong way. His knee-jerk retort (HAd to use that phrase) is ridiculous. The notion that any Evertonian could have ZERO respect for a manager who has overseen our most successful league period for over 20 years, along with trasformation from mediocrity at best, and relegation fodder at worst, is of course a nonsense.

But that doesn’t let Moyes off the hook.

Some of us prefer to make considered judgements, acknowledging that things are almost never black & white, rather all shades of grey.

In the positive corner: Moyes gave us backour dignity. Moyes has taken Everton into the Champions League. He has taken us to 5 top 6 places in 6 years. Everton have earned the respect and admiration of many, including managers, pundits and fans of other clubs. We have progressed under Moyes. Anyone, and I do mean ANYONE (except perhaps Messrs Kenrick and Marsh) can see the bleedin obvious.

Against: yes, we do approach far too many games in a seemingly negative/cautious frame of mind. We do not finish teams off as other teams strive to do. We do not "have a go" at the Sky 4, or at least not until recently, as other teams have done. Beter to live one day as a Tiger than one hundred years as a Sheep, goes the saying.

But you are right, Mike. Moyes has assembled the best, most talented, young and valuable squad we have seen at Goodison for a long, long time. I would venture to suggest that, even in spite of Moyes’s defensive shortcomings, had we not suffered the injuries we had, and had some bastard within the club organised an effective and at least semi-prestigious pre-season for us, then we’d be in the top 4 now.

I have never been completely satisfied with Moyes. It has been a frustrating dalliance for Evertonians. The notion that we are patently so much better than we were before he came, but that we could seemingly also be so much better than we are. Sometimes we forget just how crap things were before he came.

There are signs, only signs, that with a full complement we can mix it with the best. I mean, let’s not piss about, we have a very good goaly, Heitinga and Jagielka are more than adequate, then a midfield of Arteta, Fellaini, Pienaar, Rodwell etc, and then goal scorers like Saha and Yak up front. One can only laugh when Michael Kenrick harks back to the days of Kanchelskis. I wonder who else from that glory side would get into today’s team. Perhaps Michael can enlighten us.

And I really must laugh out loud at the criticism Fellaini got last season, and this. It was clear to anyone who looked properly that this boy was going to be a god for Everton. Those were my exact words last season, and repeated early this season. Free of injury this boy is super special. Anyone who doubts that now really is blind.

So, again, good provocative stuff Mike. There are arguments for & against Moyes. I wanted him out some months back because I was (actually I still am) tired of wasting the start of almost every season. It annoys the fuck out of me. He has now failed in both the last two seasons, for differing reasons, and at least part of the fault for us being so far behind is down to David Moyes.

But to suggest that one has has zero respect for him is to fuck about with words for the sake of it. Eight years ago we’d have killed for a top 6 place, nevermind a top 4 one. That’s after we’d laughed in the face of anyone who suggested it.

Fickle is the life of a football fan. Even Michael Kenrick might agree. I can only imagine what he would have posted during the Johnson/Smith era...

Geoff Edwards
20   Posted 19/02/2010 at 11:49:01

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It seems David Moyes is every Evrtonian’s marmite. It’s unbelievable how much he polarises opinions.

Also, people seem to have the blue tinted specs on re the Royle era. In the 95 final, I was only 15 but I distinctly remember us nicking a goal and then getting battered by Man U for the rest of the game, relying on Big Nev to keep us in it for long periods.

The next season we finished 6th — great. The season after? 4th in the table at Xmas, Hinchcliffe and Parkinson get injured and we slide down the table, Royle quits and we end up closer to relegation than the top of the league.
Giles Larkman
21   Posted 19/02/2010 at 11:58:35

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Why is it all black and white here? There are shades of gray, no?

To say you have zero respect for Moyes seems, excessively harsh somewhat. Quite right he has not won anything, but the league is not what it was 20 years ago. Brian Clough took Forest to back to back European Cup wins, who here honestly think that this level of achievement is realistic nowadays?

Investment is an issue, as previously stated Blackburn did it a la Chelsea with a sugar daddy whilst Leeds and Portsmouth gained some level of success with ill advised over investment.

We were proper fucked before Moyes and to dump him in with Mike Walker and Walter Smith seems short sighted. I agree with some of the critism about Moyes, like any fan I get frustrated... but come on.... zero respect for the manager that signed us Arteta, Pienaar, Fellaini, Jagielka, Howard, Saha?

I say bring back Angell, Barlow, Nyarko, Thomson,... et al.
Dave Wilson
22   Posted 19/02/2010 at 12:16:22

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Geoff Edwards

If you think we got battered in the 95 Cup Final you don't "distinctly" remember anything about it.

We might not have anihilated them the same way as we had anihilated a star studded Spurs team in the semis, but we undoubtedly deserved our win.
Dave Lynch
23   Posted 19/02/2010 at 12:50:17

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I’m not suggesting it has all been negative... But how long can/do we have to go on treading water?
Peter McHugh
24   Posted 19/02/2010 at 12:41:22

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I’ve only been watching Everton since around 1989 and was too young to remember our glory days.

Sorry to sit on the fence, but I can’t make up my mind on Moyes; he annoys me with tactics and defensive mindset but I always have in the back of my mind and an excuse for him that it’s because of lack of money he isn’t more bold.

However, I can say, truthfully, I was loads more excited with Big Jo’s team

I thought he assembled an excellent team but then got dismantled owing to mixture of injuries, fall outs and mafia debts. The team of Limpar, Kanchelskis, Barmby, Stuart, Ferguson, Speed, Rideout were good forward to pick from. Parkinson anchoring the midfield, Dave Watson with Rhino at back, Hinchcliffe left back — unfortunately, he persisted with Barrett (I always thought Matt Jackson was a far beter footballer and better bet at RB) but you can’t have everything.

I loved that team and apart from Big Nev in goal who is my favourite EFC player of all time, I actually loved watching Limpar and thought he was a genius and single handedly won us that Cup Final — thought it was a shocking decision to take him off (althogh it worked as we won!) and I was gutted when Joe fell out with him over wages, I think.
Peter McHugh
25   Posted 19/02/2010 at 12:55:06

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Comparing the team would go something like this I guess:

Howard / Southall
Baines / Hinchcliffe
Jags / Watson
Heitinga / Unsworth
Neville / Barratt
Piennar / Limpar
Fellaini / Parkinson
Donoavan / Kanchelskis
Arteta / Speed
Cahill / Stuart
Saha / Ferguson
Ciarán McGlone
26   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:00:08

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I don’t understand this at all... we have our dignity?

What?
Geoff Edwards
27   Posted 19/02/2010 at 12:54:05

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Dave Wilson,

Where in my post do I assert that we didn’t deserve to win the 1995 cup final?

What I was trying to say is that we nicked a goal and did a lot of defending and for long periods relied our goalkeeper to hold onto our lead.

I find it strange that the editor uses this game as a stick to beat Moyes with for being defensive.
Dave Wilson
28   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:03:00

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Yeah apparently we lost it, but Moyse has won it back.

We’re hiring an open top bus and parading it around the city at the end of the season

Dave Wilson
29   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:05:33

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Geoff

Perhaps it was the bit were you said you "distictly remembered us getting battered" that I misunderstood.
Peter McHugh
30   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:00:42

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Sorry to go on, but I am excited by the squad Moyes has assembled, very frustrating that we haven’t been able to see his best 11 because of injuries.
Michael Coffey
31   Posted 19/02/2010 at 12:54:29

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The problem is we have club motto, that (from memory) calls for "Nothing but the best". It’s not "nothing but the best, allowing for prevailing economic circumstances" or "nothing but the best when we have a close to full squad available".

I’m happy when I hear Pienaar, Donovan etc saying how much they like it at Everton. But then again, I guess I’d like it at Everton — you get about £2million a year... and no-one expects you to win anything much. Some job.

I want players who like it here because they believe — as that motto proclaims — that we are the best damned club in the world and we have a right to win things. I want them going out every day expressing that in the way they play. I want to see arrogance in the Royal Blue and contempt for the rest. I don’t need skill — I just want belief.

It galls me that a win against Chelsea is greeted with the hysteria of the Relief of Mafeking. Chelsea. The team we relegated in 1975. The team we tonked 6-0 when Latch got his 30. A team whose reputation for most of the last 30 years has owed more to the problems it caused the Met than its ability to win things. A club that will one day return to the dust and muck whence it emerged few years ago.

We are Everton. Different altogether. I believe that, and I don’t want anyone in that shirt who can’t play with that conviction.

Rooney left because he had that arrogance, and I suspect he didn’t see it around him on the pitch or in the club leadership.
Gary Tudor
32   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:05:43

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It’s great that we have such healthy debate between Evertonians.

I think Moyes has a number of qualities which his peers do not posses.

1. Transfer market activity. Moyes has worked his magic several times. His tranfers rarely get second guessed by the media and he is in the habit of making huge profits.

He signs players other mangers do not want to take a chance on. When Moyes registers an interest in player inevitably, other managers then think if they are good enough for Moyes they are good enough for them.

2. Pride — to be fair, when he took over Everton were relegation contenders. He is dignified and players want to play for him.

3. Man of principles — Receives money from Rooney's publishers and then straightaway pays the money to the Everton Former Players Foundation.

At times I get frustrated by a perceived lack of tactical nouse, however, I would rather have Davey Moyes that any other prem manager.

We have continuity and a great acadamy and consistently produce great players.

Birmingham are now trying to emulate the Everton way!

It’s better the devil you know than the devil you don’t.

Be careful what you wish for!!!

Brian Waring
33   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:20:44

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It’s a shame that Moyes doesn’t have a set of balls like the man I have 100% total respect for, step forward Joe Royle.

I hope I’m wrong, and will eat humble pie on here if I’m wrong, but tomorrow will be our usual roll over and get shafted up the arse, negative performance against the Mancs.
Geoff Edwards
34   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:21:20

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Last time I checked the dictionary, batter and deserve mean two different things.
Dan Brierley
35   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:29:51

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Gav, I thought we also beat Chelsea? The approach both Wigan and Burnley take is reflected in their League position. Sure, they might have had some good results from their style of play, but their league positions suggest that its not a particularly effective over the season. Burnley are 2nd from bottom, with Wigan two points above them. I don’t think Moyes has anything to learn from the way the manager has those teams playing.
Howard Don
36   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:26:59

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Alan Kirwin - good balanced article, although I’d be a bit more pro Moyes than you are. Is there a fan base anywhere in the country or world for that matter, totally happy with their manager? I doubt it, even SAF gets stick at times.

As a Moyes supporter (or as Michael Kenrick would have it acolyte, or am I behind the times, is appologist the current derogatory terminology, I lose track) of course I don’t support every decision he makes, I just feel he is far and away the best manager available for Everton Football Club and is totally committed to the cause. As such he deserves total, albeit not necessarily uncritical, support .

Nonesensical logic such as holding up the fact that manager X won a single cup, with all the luck element that contains, and is therefore better than manager Y who hasn’t won said cup is so facile it’s hardly worthy of debate.

Still I’d better cut this short as any lengthy defence of Moyes usually brings the censors axe down. Suffice to say Michael would probably win more support for his view if he tried reasoned logic instead of his apparently paranoid hatred of a man who has done little but good for our club since he arrived.
Paul Foster
37   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:28:13

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There are a lot of rose-tinted spectacles out there, it seems. We won the FA Cup under Royle - and I love the man for this achievement - but bear in mind Man Utd were playing Nicky Butt up front due to the absence of Cole and Cantona! We also won it when winning a Cup was an awful lot easier than it is today (just read the Adrian Heath interview from the other day - he points out that EVERYBODY fancied their chances to win something back in the day; money has changed that).

When Moyes took Everton to the FA Cup final last season, he did so by beating a Liverpool side that has spent £200 million on players during his tenure and a Man Utd side that has spent around £250 million. We fell short against a side that has spent £300 million. That simply didn’t happen in 1995, when our route to the final saw us beat Derby, Bristol City, Norwich, Newcastle and Spurs.

I also find it staggering that so many people believed we were an entertaining side under Joe Royle. Kanchelskis and Limpar ran at people (always nice), but we were, after all, nicknamed the Dogs of War! We got stuck in, we defended bravely, we closed players down and we tried to nick the odd goal. I was there for the home nil nils against Southampton and Wimbledon, and it wasn’t pretty. I was also there for the 4-1 defeat at Goodison Park by Sheffield Wednesday - perhaps the most negative display I have ever seen by an Everton side.

Finally, it’s worth pointing out that Joe Royle’s win percentage rate was much, much lower than David Moyes’s. Royle more adventurous than Moyes? Not how I remember it, and not what the stats tell us.
Liam Reilly
38   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:32:33

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I’m as annoyed as anyone with our inability to play football on the gorund sometimes but this season:

Arsenal (H) Got spanked
Man U (A) Got Spanked
Liverpool (H) Deserved to win - great football
Chelsea (A) A wee bit lucky but maybe deserved a draw
Arsenal (A) Deserved to win - great football
Man City (H) Deserved to win - great football
Liverpool (A) Should have won - ran out of ideas
Chelsea (H) Deserved to win - great football

Not bad and definately shows improvement against the Sky 4.
Ciarán McGlone
39   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:44:23

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I think Moyes has a number of qualities which his peers do not posses.

1. Transfer market activity. Moyes has worked his magic several times.
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Moyes's transfers have been as bad as they have been good — there have been as many duds as successes. He signs players other managers would not touch as he has little money to play with and uses the ’Lazarus signing’ as a method of maximising his revenue..

2. Pride — to be fair when he took over Everton were relegation contenders. He is dignified and players want to play for him.
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He seems to be able to motivate a team — this seems to be one of his strong points. I agree with this in principle... however, there are the high profile players who didn’t want to play for him — Rooney, Lescott... and there was also various rumours of fall outs with players.

3. Man of principles —Receives money from Rooneys publishers and then straighway pays the money to the Everton Formwer players foundation.
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This is something we expect at everton - but to state this is to overlook some glaring black marks over his tenure... the Man United – Howard incident has still never been explained — to me, it was a clear case of Moyes putting his word to another manager before the good of the club..

There’s also the Garbutt saga, that ironically happened while Moyes was busy moaning about Mark Hughes.

And then there’s his complicit lap-dog routine in regard to the piss-poor support he gets from the board... His principles on this issue should be for the benefit of the club and not Bill Kenwright.

"We have continuity and a great academy and consistently produce great players."
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Our academy appears to be shíte.
Sean McCarthy
40   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:06:54

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".....Last time I checked the dictionary, batter and deserve mean two different things....."

Now I get it......they battered the hell out of us but no matter we still deserved to win. Go figure as they say!!!
Jeff Magee
41   Posted 19/02/2010 at 13:21:15

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Going back to Michael Kenrick's initial rant — a few points I wish you would concentrate on answering rather than the mantra of he’s won fuck all so he must be shite so let's get rid of DM.

’Magnificent (vomit inducing) seventh’ as opposed to creditable sixth (once) — what's the difference (other than one place obviously) only a little queasy with 6th?

Who should we get when we all see the light and get shut of DM? Obviously has to be a winner - trouble is there aren’t many of those about. Most likely to be available in the near future is the FSW... fancy him? — no I didn’t think so — Harry Rednap? Spurs not quite looking the world beaters they were early season — after these two most of the others are out of our bracket and gainfully employed — even Arsene Wenger might be classed as a loser as he has not won for a (relatively) long time now. Can’t think of anybody else who has won anything in recent times — how far do we go back? Should we ask Joe Royle back?

Joe Royle is my all time second favourite player (after Alan Ball) and just ahead of Colin Harvey and Howard Kendall (showing my age now) and I thought he was an excellent manager who I was sorry to see leave; however, for a lot of his tenure I remember him having to answer the same accusations as Mark Hughes had to at Blackburn regarding Dogs of War style play and so whilst I was a pleased as Punch when we won the 95 FA cup. I felt the semi against Spurs was a much better display and the Final was a pretty trugid affair which had 0-0 written all over it until Rideout scored off the rebound — not a lot different than this year's in terms of standard of our play, only we won one and lost other — its a cup — remember the RS losing to a bunch of Wombles (who can forget!) but did not turn the RS into a bunch of losers or the Wombles into winners. Also, I think that last year's Chelsea are a much stronger outfit than 95 Man U.

Also the fact that we could buy Kanchelskis shows that we were in a different financial league then — who would be the equivalent now? Lady Boy? Ronaldo? Rooney?

Also all the complaints about how we play the Sky4 — how do we compare with others outside the ’elite’? I mean in terms of overall long term results not a one off miracle like the Burnley and Wigan results this year. And have you not noticed how all managers set up against what they consider superior opposition — see FSW in all Champions League games (especially 2005). Alex F against Arsenal — particularly that year when they brought the unbeaten record to an end — generally kicked them up in the air and got a couple of dodgy goals... even the RS a couple of weeks ago at Anfield against us — hardly free flowing attacking football.

Not saying Moyes is the best manager ever but in my opinion he’s as good as JR and the best we are likely to have in the foreseeable future and nowhere near as bad as MK and other Moysey haters make out. Also not saying he should be above criticism but it should be structured not just repeating he’s shit he’s won fuck all so that proves it.
Geoff Edwards
42   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:07:52

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Ciaran, I would disagree with a couple of your points there.

Every manager signs duds. I would say Moyes’s good business outweighs his bad. I also think Lescott only stopped playing for Moyes after he decided he wanted to join City, not because of a problem with Moyes’s management.

I also think our academy has been very good, whilst not as good as the likes of Man City and Boro. We have a number of homegrown lads in and around the squad.

Geoff Edwards
43   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:16:19

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Yes, Sean, in my opinion, a team can get battered (i.e. concede lots of possession and goal opportunities) but defend resolutely and be deserving of a win if they hold on.
James Marshall
44   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:24:51

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Be careful what you wish for is about the right way to sum it all up. Moyes is one of the best managers out there and has done very well with one hand tied behind his back at times. Look at clubs like Sunderland & Portsmouth as examples of how money & investment have totalled absolutely nothing.

We’re consitently one of the top 6 clubs in the country and under the current footballing climate, I’d say that's pretty good going.

I don't see any other clubs winning the league or even making it into the top 4... which we HAVE managed to do.

OK we haven’t won anything, but I’m happy with the way things are personally and if you think that's settling for second best, well I couldn't care less because I can hold my head high as an Evertonian living in London and that's enough for me.
Ciarán McGlone
45   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:28:07

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Geoff,

I was specifically referring to our academies innability to attract young talent...

Some of the homegrown stuff has been good...most of the acquired players have been duffers..

Ciarán McGlone
46   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:32:32

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"Be careful what you wish for is about the right way to sum it all up"
-------

Not it’s not, it’s daft.
Dave Wilson
47   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:04:47

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So when you say we got battered, what you really meant was we deserved to win?

Dear me...
Dave Roberts
48   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:12:03

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It seems to me that there are at least two types of manager in football today although there is a grey area of overlap in the direction of Wenger. Those who will only take a job if there is bags of money to spend and those who will take on trying to get the best of poor resources.

Managers like Ferguson, Mourinho, Mancini, Benitez and Redknapp etc would not look at Everton if there was a vacancy as it would be too much like hard work for them. These kind of managers like to have virtually two teams available, one for the game in hand and another to choose the bench from. They usually only have a passing interest in the youth setup (with the possible exception of Ferguson) because its much easier to buy who they need.

Of the managers that don’t have huge resources at their disposal such as just about everybody else in the Premiership, is there anybody who is as good as Moyes? If so...who is he?

Even outside of the Premier League, including abroad, who would be likely to do a better job than Moyes given the same resources?

O’Neill is somebody I often think about when considering managers in the Premier League. Often lauded in the media as an up and coming young British manager and touted more than once for the England job. His club, while not exactly in the same league as Chelsea and City, are pretty well resourced. But is he better than Moyes? His teams aren’t. They have one style of play, on the break, for which they mainly rely on Young. Without him they are much less effective and can be very boring to watch. They consistently finish below Everton.

If O'Neill is considered by some to be the best manager outside of the ’big boys’ would he, for instance be any better for Everton than Moyes and if not, who would?

It’s all very well calling for somebody’s head but be careful what you wish for in terms of a replacement... if there is one!
James Marshall
49   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:38:52

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Ciaran - so you’d rather get rid of Moyes, have another long period of instability and end up a crappy, skint club fighting for relegation?

Could happen is all I’m saying - stability means an awful lot in football.
Peter Carroll
50   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:46:52

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How anyone can be so hostile towards Moyes is beyond me. He has brought consistency and stability to this club. Something we have lacked since the later parts of Colin Harvey’s tenure.
Gavin Ramejkis
51   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:44:43

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Dan we beat Chelski this season after how many attempts and even if you were not at Wembley for the final and only saw it on TV you can’t say you were proud of that performance. Too often we have seen performances not worthy of the shirt against Chelski.
Geoff Edwards
52   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:44:08

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Dave, when I say we got battered. I mean Man U were dominant in terms of possession, territory and chances created. I believe we deserved to win because our goal keeper was outstanding and Man U couldn’t make the most of their dominance.
Peter Carroll
53   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:51:16

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I’ve heard far too many criticisms of last year's FA Cup Final final performance. I think some people should think rationally about the whole day.

Everton’s strong point is 100% commitment and effort. 100°F blazing sunshine and a massive pitch are not the conditions which suit the Blues.

Chelsea’s multi-million pound players meant that they could change things around and wait for opportunity.

They had players like Ballack on the bench, players which would be guaranteed first teamers at Everton.

70°F and it would have been completely different. We won the '95 final in cool wet conditions.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
54   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:57:05

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Michael Coffey, fantastic post. THAT is what Everton should be about... not parking the bus and moaning endlessly about lack of money and lack of resources, and endless fricken injuries. Nail on Head!
Gavin Ramejkis
55   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:51:58

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Dave Roberts, I think Roy Hodgson is a very underrated manager that goes about his way quietly and reasonably well and again not with bucket-loads of cash.
Ciarán McGlone
56   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:56:37

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Ciaran - so you’d rather get rid of Moyes, have another long period of instability and end up a crappy, skint club fighting for relegation?
--------------------------------
I never said I wanted rid of Moyes — or anything like it.....

I simply think your ’could happen’ argument you present lacks balance — and is simply scaremongering...
Ciarán McGlone
57   Posted 19/02/2010 at 15:04:13

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Mr Hudson,

Can you please desist from the new favourite phrase your are using to denigrate other evertonians — namely — ’armchair supporters’...

Going to the match does not automatically install somne greater insight into the workings of football... as your obsequious hyper-sensitivity towards criticism of the manager or team proves....
James Marshall
58   Posted 19/02/2010 at 15:20:55

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Ciaran - I’m not arguing with you, so ok you’re right and I’m wrong.

There.

Zzzzzzzz.
Phil Bellis
59   Posted 19/02/2010 at 15:15:51

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Well said, Ciarán.

And oi, Hudson!, less of the "40+ types" snides. Our assessment of Everton and our expectations of how we should play are based on shared experience, history and ambition.

As I’ve said before, if you’ve ever had carnal knowledge of Kate Bush (< 35, ask your Dad) you’ll never be happy shagging a blow-up doll
Alan Kirwin
60   Posted 19/02/2010 at 15:18:16

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Howard Don - considered, balanced and temperate. Nail on head as they say.

As for Ciaran’s lambasting of Moyes’s transfer dealings, sorry Ciaran, utter drivel. Let’s examine:

WINS - Yobo, Cahill, Arteta, Howard, Lescott, Pienaar, Fellaini, Yakubu, Saha, Heitinga, Neville, Johnson (scored goals & we made £3m), Valente, Neill (we made £1m in 3 months), Donovan

DUDS - Krøldrup, Beatty, VDM, Jo...

Billy has only been here 5 mins and, on same principle as Fellaini, I suggest we wait until next season. Jacobsen is neutral (bought as cover, then injured).

I don’t count the kids bought in hope like Jutkiewicz etc, nor loans (for every Jo there’s a Donovan). Compare Moyes’s record with Benitez (ha!) or even SAF. Whatever else one may criticise Moyes for, the fact (for this is fact) is that the vast majority of his signings have succeeded, some brilliantly so, and are worth more than we paid for them. Your assessment is ridiculous, sir.
Art Jones
61   Posted 19/02/2010 at 14:59:10

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Michael, you cannot win games on a romantic ideal, it’s the money dominated Premier League 2010, not the Eagle comic c 1910 or Roy of the Rovers. Your wishes are nice but totally unrealistic. Money does talk, History and stats confirm this and to dismiss the injuries we’ve had and expect 16-year-old academy kids to come into the team (in a league that established internationals such as Veron and Shevchenko struggle) and think they can replace Arteta, Jagielka and others is not rational.
Alan Kirwin
62   Posted 19/02/2010 at 15:38:29

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Armchair Fan - a term used for decades and known to almost every football fan & follower. Implies an individual who only (or almost exclusively) watches a team from the comfort of his/her home. As opposed to a fan who attends matches and invests time and money in his/her following.

It is undeniable that live attendance at a game offers a level of atmosphere, involvement and vision of the whole game that is simply unattainable when watching a game on TV. If you disagree then try listening to the occasional commentary made from a TV studio (which Ch4 did on Seria A for a while) rather than that from live game.

Anything else you’re not sure of just ask.
Dave Wilson
63   Posted 19/02/2010 at 15:33:50

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Armchair fan eh?

I’ve become a bit of one myself during this European campaigne, enjoyed it too. But whether I watch on TV at home, a on big screen in the ale house, or go to GP, whoever I watch it with always sees a different game than me.

Footy is very much in the eye of the beholder. Took me about 50 years to learn that.
Ciarán McGlone
64   Posted 19/02/2010 at 16:00:40

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Mr Kirwin,

Have a look at the transfer list on the official site.....it’s slightly longer than you’d have us believe...

Armchair fan = a veiled insult that attempts to suggest a degree of elitisim in terms of analytical ability. In short - a crock of shite.
Ciarán McGlone
65   Posted 19/02/2010 at 16:23:21

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By the way Alan - have you given up on getting rid of Moyes?
Mike Green
66   Posted 19/02/2010 at 16:21:23

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Ciaran

For a number of reasons its difficult for me to get to games - I probably make half a dozen a season. I am therefore, pretty much, an "armchair fan". There’s no getting away from it.

You cant compare the view of the game live to that on MOTD or even a full game on Sky. I’m afraid the tele just aint big enough to fit it all in.
Alan Kirwin
67   Posted 19/02/2010 at 16:28:55

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Ciaran I know the full list is longer, but it’s distorted by loans etc, some of which were simply bought as cover (Jacobsen, Gardner etc). The list I quote is reasonably on the button and, however you cut the cake, the notion that Moyes’ buys have been as bad as they’ve been as good is nonsense.

I thin I’ve made my point on Moyes enough for it to be reasonably clear. I respect what he has done from what he started with. He has achieved a lot, but he has failings and, in some cases, they are very detrimental. if we could replace Moyes with a dynamic and progressive coach, and one with a strong personality, then I remain as before.

The situation is not black & white. Only an idiot would suggest that it is. My position is considered. I do not simply want him removed for the sake of it. Although I would have done precisely that in the summer of 2009 for the impact that his contract situation had on the team. But if the right kind of coach was available (perhaps Ralf Rangnick) then I believe we can go further.

And while you’re at it perhaps you could switch from telling us all what you don’t want to what you actually do want. You list off an apparent charge sheet of Moyes’s failings, but then get offended when someone accuses you of wanting him out. Pray, do tell us Ciaran. Where do you stand?

Regardless, here’s hoping for 3 points tomorrow. But my boy Fellaini will be missed. If we win tomorrow and the dark side draw with City then I’ll be round the bookies with £100 on top 4 finish.
Alan Kirwin
68   Posted 19/02/2010 at 16:38:34

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Just a footnote on Mr Kenrick’s rant. The one area of merit (and it is only one) is the matter of Joe Royle. I worship big Joe, always have. I can’t think of a wiser man in football, and he’s an Evertonian to his soul.

When Moyes does finally move on, or out, my first appointment would be Joe Royle as General Manager, with a head coach working to him. I’d bring big Joe back in a heartbeat.
David Booth
69   Posted 19/02/2010 at 16:24:41

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Here we go, here we go, here we go (again)...

Another pointless debate about David Moyes (who’s going nowhere, so hard luck those of you who weirdly wish he was), degenerating into personal arguments between... well I’m sure you all know who.

To Michael Coffey (and Michael Kenrick), I would ask my usual simple question, to which I never receive a reply: if Moyes is not your choice, who is?

Simply quoting our motto and harking back to how we beat Chelsea 35 years ago might seem like good copy to the former, but is not a valid argument.

And while you rightly claim Rooney has arrogance Michael, I suggest pound notes had (a lot), more to do with his move down the East Lancs. Moyes was more than capable of managing him - Rooney just wasn’t prepared to be managed and thought he was bigger than our club.

Football’s changed. In real terms, we are not the Mersey Millionaires any more.

I don’t like that any more than you, or any other Evertonian does, but surely a sense of perspective is needed.

Right now Chelsea have a lot more money and appeal than we do, and consequently more success. So do Manchester United.

Without similar financial backing, those two clubs cannot realistically be challenged. By anybody. Even Wenger is struggling to keep pace (perhaps he needs to go too???).

Like all things in life, being critical is easy. Knocking someone, or something, is far more mouthwatering than giving praise. But to do it without proposing a better alternative renders it spiteful, gratuitous and ultimately, meaningless.

Moyes is doing a sound job and with a little bit of luck (something that has traditionally been in short supply at Everton), is capable of giving us all that we crave.

Those who disagree, PLEASE give us a feasible, achievable man-for-the-job and the reasons why you think he would be a preferable option?
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
70   Posted 19/02/2010 at 16:48:51

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Alan, I love Joe too... Respect immortalised.

But as to the wisdom of bringing him back when Moyes moves on... that’s a tough one.

Talking of which, I’ve always been a realist in relation to Moyes’s position of employment as Manager. He’s here; he’s on a long-term, highly lucrative contract; he’s going nowhere. And in nothing I wrote above did I intimate that it should be otherwise.

Why oh why do so many people provide this knee-jerk response to any critique offered of Moyes... "Okay, then, who would replace him?" — For the thousandth time, that is NOT the issue. The issue is: Could he be doing a better job as our manager?

That is what concerns me. Not this pie-in-the sky hypothetical nonsense about whether he should be removed and who should replace him. That is the world of fantasy football in which I have no interest.

What I do have an interest in is watching Everton play football. I started working on this website as a result of that interest, and I don’t take kindly to anyone who disrespects that. And I don’t take kindly to someone who throws about this "armchair supporters" jibe as part of their put-down, and here’s why.

At most, something like 36,000 Evertonians can get to a home game; between 3,000 and 5,000 can get to an away game. Yet there are let’s say at least one million Evertonians worldwide who profess to follow and support the club.

A huge wedge of those — let’s say conservatively, at least 100,000 — will strive to watch the game, either live or delayed on TV (the full length game in most overseas TV markets... in fabulous HD in some lucky markets), or via a the internet — far far more than can actually get to the game.

For anyone to use the term "armchair supporters" is imbecilic in such circumstances, and demonstrates a total disrespect toward the majority of Evertonians, many of whom would perhaps be at the game if they could... but for a myriad of reasons, they can’t.

I would also maintain that, with HD and the benefit of instant replays, you in fact get a far better impression of what actually happened during the game from TV (where in HD they purposely employ a very wide viewing angle and field of view for most of the open play) than you do from being at the game. Obviously what you miss is the atmosphere, the camaraderie, and everything else that goes with attending the game.

But, considering our total audience, I have zero tolerance for anyone bandying around such a ignorant and offensive brickbat on here.
Geoff Edwards
71   Posted 19/02/2010 at 17:07:16

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Alan, I think the jury is still out on Rangnick at Hoffenheim. They were excellent in the first half of last season but they’ve been pretty hit and miss since and very easy to beat. I have my doubts as to whether he would cut it at Everton.

I don’t particularly want Moyes out but if he was to leave I woulld agree with Gavin and say Roy Hodgson. He seems to fit the bill quite nicely.
Paul Johnson
72   Posted 19/02/2010 at 17:23:00

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I am sick to death of people telling me we WON'T win anything without money. I can just about make the assumption that these are the same people who think David Moyes walks on water.

There is still a third of the season left and we only have one more chance to win a trophy and that has been greatly diminished with his negativity in the last 15 mins of Tuesday's game. If we are to believe the rhetoric that we wont win anything without money, what have we got to lose by changing managers?

Mike McLean
73   Posted 19/02/2010 at 17:22:12

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I’m struggling to think of either Valente or Neville as Moyes successes. Or indeed Gosling. Pointless listing Donavan or Bily as they simply haven’t been here long enough. So, I’d say Ciaran has the right of it.
Peter McHugh
74   Posted 19/02/2010 at 17:17:33

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Paul Foster - Joe Royle... I take your point about blue tinted spectacles but you go a bit far fetched with your points. My recollection is that Nicky Butt played as part of a 5 man midfield with Hughes up front on his own, supported by McClair and Schoels came on second half. I think you disrespect the quality of the Man Utd side, they came a whisper away from doing the double and it was a great achievement by Royle's team to deservedly overcome them.

Now, I’m the first to admit that royle started going all negative and things went pair shaped in his last season but personally, I felt just a blip he was rebuilding and takes time.

You mention Wimbledon and Southampton games, well I remember going to Wimbledon and Ferguson scored two peaches of goals and Southampton at home was about 7-1 one season were we played great stuff and then we went to Anfield and played really well and got a draw if I remember Speed scoring. Also, the 2-1 win when Kanchelskis was on fire was one of the best days of my life and we should have won by more. So I think it is you who casts a cloud over Royle's achievements, it was an absolute miracle that he kept us up.

ARMCHAIR SUPPORTERS - Michael - - a fan is a fan I agree and people who can’t go game because of illness, lack of cash, live miles away fair enough. But there are armchair fans and varying degrees of them and in my view, means they not as good as fans as people who go match week in and week out. What I mean by that is people who prefer not going match but watch it on telly, they are armchair fans. I’m actually one of them, I don’t go watching efc away much at all anymore, I simply don’t have inclination and YES in my view, it makes me less of a fan than those people who go watch us, home and way, UK and abroad and make that sacrifice — they are real true fans and respect to them.
Gavin Ramejkis
75   Posted 19/02/2010 at 17:41:25

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Alan K and others I’d love Joe Royle back but think he’s been away from top flight football too long to make great waves but then again I’d love Moyes to have a wise old football head to teach him the art of going for the throat and killer instincts the top sides have.
Paul Foster
76   Posted 19/02/2010 at 17:49:02

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Peter McHugh, I think we’re talking about different games: here are the two 0-0s I’m referring to - http://www.evertonresults.com/199495.htm

April 29 and May 6 - both shockers.

I don’t deny Royle’s achievements at all. I just find it ludicrous that anybody (Michael K in partic) can claim to have ZERO respect for David Moyes, based on the style of football his side plays, and in the same breath claim Joe Royle was a proponent of some kind of total football!

As an aside, to Michael, saying you have zero respect for a man who transformed Walter Smith’s side into the side we see today is a bit petty, at the very least.
Karl Masters
77   Posted 19/02/2010 at 17:51:06

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It’s a long time since I read so much drivel as posted by some people on here. Moyes is not perfect, but let’s have some realism.

Results matter more than style of play and anyone that says otherwise knows deep down they are wrong. How many fans would rather sdraw a game 4-4 or win a game 1-0?

All this rose tinted stuff about Kendall Mk1 ( lest we forget by the way that when money was talking in the Premiership years during his second 2 reigns he resigned because we could not afford Dion Dublin and got us as close to being relegated as was possible to be ) seems to gloss over a few facts. Now I loved those easons and we felt tenb foot tall, but we still let in 4 against Spurs, Watford, Norwich, Chelsea and Coventry in 1984/5 ( yes 5 times ) lost at home to Grimsby in the League Cup even in a Halcyon season.

Under Joe Royle we lost Cup ties to Millwall, Port Vale, York City ( over 2 legs FFS! ) and Bradford all in 18 months. In fact the FA Cup win was the only time we didn’t get fucked off by a minnow under him.

I love Kendall and Royle, but let’s get one thing straight. No Manager plays brilliant football and wins all the time. Nobody. And even the best have games we’d all rather forget!

No respect, Michael? You talk like a spolit brat who can’t have it all his own way. Love your website, but your opinions are another matter.
Mike Allison
78   Posted 19/02/2010 at 18:36:31

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Moyes has done so much more for us as a manager than Joe Royle did.

If Moyes did what Royle did Michael Kenrick would slag him off royally, and the idea that our football was that much better under Joe Royle is ridiculous. He didn’t exactly follow the ’school of science’ stuff did he? He was ’dogs of war’.
David Thomas
79   Posted 19/02/2010 at 18:57:54

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Michael Kenrick Are you trying to suggest that someone who travels home and away watching everton in both the league, cup competitions and in Europe (paying out thousands of pound to support the club) is on equal standing with regards being an Evertonian as someone who simply watches the team when they are the live match on Sky / ESPN or catches the 50 minutes on football first on a Saturday night?
Nick Wall
80   Posted 19/02/2010 at 18:53:38

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On Kenrick’s first post. To compare the current team unfavourably with Joe Royle’s team is a nonsense on so many levels. In 1995 we had a midfield fulcrum of Ebbrell, Horne and Parkinson. All players who fought for the cause and helped deliver a few great victories. But if any of them were in the squad today fans would rightly be demanding that they shouldn’t be picked and should be sold off as soon as possible, because the truth is that we’ve moved on.

The class of 2010 is well superior in ability to what we saw at any time in the 90s, and yes Michael, that’s reflected in our football. The players may not deliver every game, but the last few weeks the team has frequently played great football and been a pleasure to watch.

The most skilful player in the cup winning team was Anders Limpar. But the promise he showed especially in the Spurs game was not fulfilled; whether or not Royle should take part of the blame for that I don’t know. Kanchelskis was a class above, he was a very exciting player, and perhaps the main reason why we got that 6th place finish.

But it’s farcical for Michael to praise Royle’s team for coming a "very creditable 6th in the league" and then not to give similar credit to Moyes. The Premier League has changed almost beyond recognition since 1995, the wealth gap has increased massively, and the wealthiest clubs are able to buy up many of the biggest stars in world football.

In this situation, practically everyone in football outside of the club recognises that Moyes has done fantastically well to get a series of top 6 finishes. Yes we won a trophy in 1995 and that felt fantastic and it’s a feeling we want to have again.

But look at our cup run last year. We drew at Anfield, beat them in the replay, then went on to beat Villa and Boro and Man United before losing to a Chelsea team who had to produce their finest form in the final. That’s a record we should be proud of.

And you know what, I’m proud that we won the penalty shootout, because it shows that the team had developed a toughness and a winning mentality as exemplified by Phil Neville stepping up to take the first meaningful penalty of his life.

Moyes has come a long way since he became Everton manager, he’s made mistakes and he’s learned along the way, and I think he’s a better manager now for it. Will we win any trophies under him? I don’t know.

I just think even if you don’t like his tactics or the kind of football that we’re playing it seems perverse not to give him credit for what he’s achieved.

Mark Reid
81   Posted 19/02/2010 at 19:53:11

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In response to Michael’s first post I just wish to make a few points.

- Michael don’t you think you should calm it down and let some Toffeeweb readers comment first before adding your points. Your presupposing your own view instead of letting others get their view across.

Nick’s post above is spot on:
- How many internationals were in the 1995 side compared to the Moyes 2010?
- I’d argue not as many, infact now we have internationals in virtually every position, and not "Nowhere-vania" internationals, I’m talking major European and internationals who will star in the world cup this year. How many Evertonians were in Euro 1996? The boys in 1995 were good lads then, but we have some really special players now.
- More encouragingly, they’ve said they want to stay at the club too, and one or two have signed contract extensions to back that up.

Importantly we’ve done this at time where there’s been a "Bubble" in football the last few years and other clubs have outspent us (using debt).

Yes at times the teams not produced what they can. Injuries have taken their toll on our ambitions.

Moyes in his press conference today, indicated in a situation like Rooney in 2004 he feels we’re in a better position to handle something like that. I for one know the club’s in a better position. Its stable. We have THE BEST training facility around, and a very well respected manager.

We know what the current limitation is (the stadium, which we’re hopefully seeing addressed in a unified manner now).

But I think some of the criticism of yet, has been OTT.

In 2007/2008 comments were made about the style of our football and that if it were Arsenal playing it, the papers would be waxing lyrical...

We’ve sometimes been over direct this season, but I’d argue thats individual players doing that, and subsequently in later games they’ve restricted that more, particuarly in games we’ve won.

Think you should lay off it Michael. You may not be overly happy, but if the teams ticking along - and coming out of a horrendous injury period, and starting to find form and results thats positive.

As that will breed better football, until the manager can look for more recruits to (as he’s said) bring something extra to the club.
Mark Reid
82   Posted 19/02/2010 at 20:10:46

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Sorry. Missed this point off:

Did Joe Royle’s side have a player named as their nation’s league "player of the season"?

Johnny Heitinga springs to mind.

If Moyes continues to attract players of his calibre to Everton at the price he did then thats a snip as far as I’m concerned.
Dave Smith
83   Posted 19/02/2010 at 19:43:52

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Dave Thomas - Are you saying that only the 40,000 that Micheal Kenrick mentioned are ’proper’ Evertonians?

I suppose us other 960,000 should know our place and bugger off then....

I would give my left arm to go to every Everton game, but can’t for reasons i’m not going into. Does this make me less then those that can?
Stuart Downey
84   Posted 19/02/2010 at 20:40:26

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Michael, in response to your response, I feel as though we aren’t that far off winning something to be fair, though personally, I would rather finish fourth (or above) rather than win the FA or League Cup. Silverware is important obviously, but for Moyes tenure to ultimately succeed it’s Champions League we need and we have been knocking on the door.

Regarding transfers, ok we haven’t signed a par to Kanchelskis, but I’d give Moyes a lot of credit for his transfers

We have seen a better player since, but unfortunately the transfer went in the opposite direction, because United were the best team in the world, and our 1995 cup was a light in a long period of trouble.

I completely accede to the point Moyes seems tactically woeful at times, shy of making big decisions in high pressure games. I also accept the point that winners breed winners, and is Moyes doing that, not presently. 

Royle got sixth, Moyes has had 4th before, ahead of Liverpool. 

It’s hard to blame Moyes for injuries, just a series of freak injuries. 

Again, pre-season — we do it Commercially now, and we are starting very slowly (to put it kindly) which is beyond me. It can’t be that hard to have the team ready for day one.

 with regards to consistency, Moyes does play too consistently (tactically) for me. 

You know what, 7th would be ok this year. Because of the awful start to the season, but you have to blame that on Moyes ultimately. Injuries aside, we should have got a lot more points than we did.

Again, this is just my view, but I think Moyes teams have got better with better players. Even when he had Rooney, he used him to good effect. And Fellaini is another point of using (what will hopefully be a world class) player to full effect. You say people constantly say about potential, don’t you see potential in this squad? 

I have a lot of respect for Moyes, for the length and quality of his tenure, for the ecenomic stability he has helped bring, and the improved squad we have. But yes, there are a LOT of things I want him to improve. And being positive... That may be a step.
Too far, however I give him the doubt
Mike Allison
85   Posted 19/02/2010 at 21:11:20

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Mark and Nick, saved me having to write all that stuff myself, thanks.
Andy Crooks
86   Posted 19/02/2010 at 21:07:20

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It seems to be the view of many Evertonians that, without David Moyes, the club would be doomed. He offers stability. Of course he does, safety first is his trademark.

You know something, though, maybe things could be better. Maybe we can aspire to more than stability. Maybe someone else given the (relatively) reasonable investment that Moyes has had might have won something.

The Sky Four have created a climate of fear among the rest of the Premier League. Every coach, especially our own, has a ready made excuse for failure. How about being bold? David Moyes is not Everton. How many other clubs have their coach as the highest paid employee?

To have reservations about David Moyes does not make one a "blinkered boo boy". We have played some truly horrendous football under David Moyes. I believe it doesn’t have to be like this.

David Thomas
87   Posted 19/02/2010 at 21:19:04

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Dave Smith

I am not saying you are not an Evertonian and I am certainly not telling anyone to bugger off.

What I am saying though is that I would class myself as a bigger Evertonian than someone who does not attend matches as I travel home and away with the team and have done for the last 20 years.

For example, I class myself as a fan of Lancashire County Cricket club and attend approx 3-4 games each season, whilst there are members at the club who attend all matches and have done for decades. I would obviously not class myself as a "proper" fan like them.
Mike McLean
88   Posted 19/02/2010 at 21:31:45

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Having watched most of the football Everton have played since the mid 60’s, I’d say that there is an arguable case for classifying those who have religiously attended during the Moyes era as vulnerable rather meritorious.

Just a thought. Wouldn’t really dream of questioning the Elect, Exclusive or whatever the mot courant is.
Mike McLean
89   Posted 19/02/2010 at 21:36:19

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Arguable even.

See! That’s God punishing me for making fun of his representative on earth.
Nick Wall
90   Posted 19/02/2010 at 21:25:50

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Mark Reid - you forgot Landon Donovan!

One more point about Kanchelskis: in 1995 it was still just about possible to buy one of the star players from a Champions League club. Buying a Drogba or even a Tevez is way beyond us today. And that’s nothing to do with our ambition, it’s just that money talks.
Dave Smith
91   Posted 19/02/2010 at 21:27:19

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David - That bugger off remark was tongue in cheek. I certainly wasn’t applying that it was your view.

I notice that you say bigger, and avoid using words like better. I can see your point of view, but I still can’t see how I am any less a supporter than you?
Jay Harris
92   Posted 19/02/2010 at 21:27:35

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One point needs to be made because there are shades of it happening again if supporters keep this bitching about thge manager up.

Joe Royle resigned because Johnson would not let him have £01 million for Tore Andre Flo because he had lost faith with him...... due to supporters bitching about — wait for it — The style of play.

I would love us to play like Arsenal every game and win like Man Utd but it will not happen without all supporters getting behind the club, the players and the manager and making up that gap between the £50 million squad and the £250 million squad.

I believe Moyes is a good but not great manager but could be on the brink of an "Oxford" incident (If you have to ask you won't get it) that would fire the players onto another level.

Firing Moyes IMO is totally knee jerk and would propel us back to another Walter (Mitty) Smith era of dire football and poor results.
David Thomas
93   Posted 19/02/2010 at 22:02:14

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Dave - With all due respect, I feel I am a bigger and better supporter than someone who does not attend matches. Unless there is exceptional circumstances, there is no reason why people who live in any part of the country could not travel to watch the team on a regular basis.

I complete a 400 mile round trip each home game to watch the club and know people who travel to watch each game from Cornwall. Other people don't do this because they would rather spend their money and time on other things whereas myself and many others choose to spend a significant amount of time and money supporting the club. I do feel this makes myself a better supporter.

Sean Patton
94   Posted 19/02/2010 at 22:31:33

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The real issue in this is did Phil shag Kate Bush, much kudos if you did I bet she screamed the place down.
Dave Smith
95   Posted 19/02/2010 at 22:17:57

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David - Really? I said I didn’t want to go into the reasons why I don’t attend games, and I still don’t. They are personal, but trust me, the are valid ones.

You made a choice in life and it’s cost you time and money. I commend your choice, without people like you, football would be dead on it’s feet. However, I cannot agree that this makes you better at supporting Everton.

I live and breathe this club, so much so that my wife hates it — that's because, every time we play, she loses me for 90 minutes and then has to deal with the mood I am left in afterwards. Sound familiar?

I have stated before that I would give almost everything to attend games, but sometimes sacrifice isn’t enough. I do feel gutted that I can’t make the games, but it doesn’t affect how much I support this club.

Colin Southern
96   Posted 19/02/2010 at 22:36:19

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I see Michael Kenrick’s comment about having zero respect for Moyes is gaining notoriety with other sites. Frankly I think its been disgraceful on here at times the last 18 months.

I used to love coming on this site with its excellent and well written articles. I always need my dose of toffeeweb every morning. The website still gets better and better each time, and I have to take my hat off to the guys who run it. Yes, it is healthy and great that we can debate opinions about the manager or certain players. But the negative stance coming from it lately is just turning me and other fans off.

I always thought the editor's job was to be a mediator. Treating equal sides of the arguement exactly the same. We definately can’t say that's true and often I’ll see posters with a different opinion shouted down.

Well done Michael, your’e doing a great job in polarising us Everton fans.
David Thomas
97   Posted 19/02/2010 at 22:45:40

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Dave - I am sure your reasons are valid and they are none of my business. This is not aimed at you but i find it annoying when people state they are Evertonians and when you speak to them you find out they never attend matches but simply see highlights of matches in the pub, but then start questioning the analysis of people who attend games regularly.

For example, I thought Leon Osman played well on Tuesday night yet a number of people on this website have criticised his performance and then stated things like "I only caught the last 10 minutes of the game" etc. These people spout off about the club yet could not even be bothered to watch them when they were live on TV.

Dave Smith
98   Posted 19/02/2010 at 23:07:35

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Well, that's fair enough. That even annoys me!

Concerning Osman - I remember a couple of seasons ago, he went on an amazing run and beat 3 or 4 Spurs players before assisting in an Everton goal. Been a fan of his ever since.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
99   Posted 19/02/2010 at 23:41:23

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Colin, think of it as a test: can you, under conditions of extreme duress (the godliness of our Messiah has been questioned by an unbeliever), respond reasonably without insulting the author, making disparaging remarks about other Evertonians, or derogatory comments about the website?

Hmmm... when expressed in terms of religious bigotry, I guess the rather excessive responses to what started out as a reasonable discussion, with point and counter point (but no insults at least until some of the acolytes started screaming and kicking), are now reasonable and justified... er.... NOT!

Oh , and the "negative stance" is what drives us crazy about Moyes... does that somehow make us even?

And where is it written that I have to be a neutral moderator? Never gonna happen, so live with it.

And Colin, Everton fans are naturally well polarized — anyone who's been reading these pages for any length of time would know that. Just look at the diversity of opinion after each match, and the number of times people say "Well, you can't have seen the same game as me..."

Diversity of opinion is what we actually encourage. Otherwise, where's the discussion? It does appear, however, to be too much for some fans, who expect us all to be robots, genuflecting in the presence, and at the mere mention, of His Holiness, the Moyesiah.

All Evertonians have their opinions and we are no different. The editorial bit is to correct people's spelling... like your "definately" — where did you learn that one?

Phil Bellis
100   Posted 20/02/2010 at 00:16:54

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Sean... a gentleman never tells (or asks)
Andy Crooks
101   Posted 20/02/2010 at 00:28:39

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How many miles from Goodison Park must one live to be a proper Evertonian? How many games must one attend? If circumstances allowed, I’d be at every game, home or away. I respect and envy those who are.
Mike Jones
102   Posted 20/02/2010 at 01:29:44

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Wow, what a debate; I should post more often! I won’t get personal; suffice to say I respect the views of all Evertonians. I think Moyes is doing alright. I have my dignity back compared to how I’ve felt sometimes in the past. I’ve never seen better than ’84-85 but I’m hopeful...
James Stewart
103   Posted 20/02/2010 at 02:32:38

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This is not the best squad since 1984 because we will not finish in the top 4 this year. FACT

It will be the best Squad when they fucking prove it and break the top4 for and win something. Til then the jury is out. I wish people would stop with the posting of past dismal everton players. That is not proving anything. Yes, they won nothing but then neither have the current lot. Neville is as bad as any of the rubbish we have had in the past — and he is Captain, for Christ's sake!

I also appreciate Michael being so open with his thoughts and opinions. Its a refreshing change for an editor to not sit on the fence all the time! If you want to read endless positive bullshit spin, go to the OS!
Gavin Ramejkis
104   Posted 20/02/2010 at 07:49:35

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James I think that’s part of the biggest problem with the claims of how good the current side is. It has to be done in direct comparison to it’s competition, so yes we do have good players but no we don’t have a title winning side or a cup winning side as the rest of the world didn’t stand still since 84/85 either so using that analogy it isn’t as good or better.
Paul Rimmer
105   Posted 20/02/2010 at 08:50:46

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Can someone tell me what playing negatively is. It’s not the formation as 4-4-1-1 has worked well for us over the last seasons having a very positive goal difference by the season’s end.
Playing open/attacking football seems to get you very little these days. West Brom/Newcastle relegated. Burnley, Wigan, West Ham struggling. Even Spurs/Arsenal are in consistent - whereas more direct teams are doing ok - Blackburn, Stoke, Birmingham.
Everton can and do play good football. Sometimes Moyes’ substitutions are poor and some players are frightened to make mistakes - these are areas he could improve. Winning a trophy is more difficult now than ever - the League is dominated by those with money or can attract the best youth from Europe. The cups are attainable and we are seeing signs that this squad is capable of winning one - but so are about 10 other teams. You need luck, something this manager seems to lack.
Paul Johnson
106   Posted 20/02/2010 at 09:59:18

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Paul, it sis not so much the system but the position and style of the system. What you have to add to the mix is a winners attitude. Tuesday was a classic example for me of negative mindset that exudes from Davey boy regularily. Take Arteta off ( a forward thinking player) for Rodwell (primarily a defender by nature). Then remove Saha (our leading goalscorer) for Bilyatdinov (a midfielder struggling for form). This totally hands any forward momentum the team has to the opposition. What dissapointed me even more was that Moyes had the temerity to question the players willingness to push on in the last ten minutes. This is his squad and they play to his instructions I believe he is negative.
Kevin Thompson
107   Posted 20/02/2010 at 10:19:45

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money talks, simple fact. In 88, we signed Cottee for a british record fee. how many players has Fergie bought that cost more than fellani. Ferdinand, rooney,valencia, bervatov etc and some of them r warming the bench. times have changed, we can’t afford the fees and wages that the sky 4 can, so Moyes has done a great job with the limit finances. Walter smith had the same constraints and I remember pundits were saying what a great job he was doing for his limited funds
Alan Clarke
108   Posted 20/02/2010 at 10:32:24

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The editor, Michael has made good points in the past about Moyes’ team playing good football but then reverting to hoofball. I agree.

Moyes has set his own standards with some fine displays over the years but still for the majority of the season every year we have to endure poor football played long from the back and hoping we can sneak 1-0 victories.
Paul Rimmer
109   Posted 20/02/2010 at 11:23:52

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Paul, Moyes got it right last Tuesday. Arteta still not fully fit - bring on Rodwell. Chelsea were bound to put us under pressure in the last 15 so a more defensive player helped. Bily played from the start and was replaced by Gosling (86) and Saha was replaced in injury time by Senderos as they looked to go more route one. I understand what you’re trying to say - keep the ball and attack them instead but doing this against good opposition can be suicidal.
Paul Johnson
110   Posted 20/02/2010 at 12:10:53

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Paul I was talking about the Lisbon game but your reply hits the nail on the head as it is an occurence we see all to often from Davey’s team.
Mike Allison
111   Posted 20/02/2010 at 12:29:59

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Michael loads of people spell it ’definately’, very annoying.

I agree that Michael has no duty whatsoever to be a neutral moderator, if he has a strong opinion about something he should feel free to express it. I don’t think he’s particularly good at accepting criticism of those points of view though, Michael I think you’re often guilty of some of the things you accuse your critics of.

I also think you need to accept that to state that you have ’zero respect’ for the manager who has had us finishing regularly in the top 6 for the first time in 15-20 years is an extreme viewpoint, and will be very antagonising to a lot of people. You must understand its going to provoke a big reaction, often an emotional one. So to then criticise that emotional reaction seems disingenuous, you either wanted it, or have been extremely naive to not expect it. This reaction is especially true for non-merseyside based fans who have spent much of their lives being the only Everton fan (or one of very few) who a lot of their mates know. We spent around ten years getting ripped and, yes, getting no respect about our team. As Mike Green said, we had no ’dignity’ in those football banter terms. Moyes has given us that back, and fans of all other clubs now respect us in a way they hadn’t in my ’adult’ (including teenage) lifetime.

I also think the comparison with Joe Royle’s team was an own goal, their football was no better, probably worse, and the overall quality was lower. Even the ’goodness’ of that period last about a season and a half, as opposed to the 6-8 years, depending on what you count, that Moyes has had us competing in the top section of the Premier League.
Kevin Sparke
112   Posted 20/02/2010 at 14:57:35

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x34icYC8zA0

Hahahaha!
Dave Jeanrenaud
113   Posted 20/02/2010 at 15:18:58

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Brilliant Kevin.

A large slice of humble pie might be on order one feels.
Colin Southern
114   Posted 20/02/2010 at 15:20:59

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I know we won 3-1 BUT come-on toffeewingers theres got to be something you lot can moan about. Maybe the pies werent up to their usual standard or a seagull shat on you as you sat down to watch the game or something!
Mike Allison
115   Posted 20/02/2010 at 15:24:36

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"It will be the best Squad when they fucking prove it and break the top4 for and win something"

I only just spotted this gem from James Stewart! Ha ha ha! We came 4th in 2005, under Moyes, does that mean it was proven then?! We finished above the European Champions that season.

We’re way better now than we were then as well.
Chris Jones
116   Posted 20/02/2010 at 15:31:36

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Sack Moyes now. Bag of shite! I knew we’d lose. Er, hang on...
Colin Southern
117   Posted 20/02/2010 at 15:36:13

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Nice one Kevin

maybe they should try this song


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLo6okXiFTw

Art Jones
118   Posted 20/02/2010 at 17:29:12

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A magnificent performance by the lads and manager . Unlike some , I have and always have had the greatest respect for David Moyes . Credit where it’s due !

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