If we can hang on to our youngsters I'm sure we can, but you know with the big money teams your always worried about your youngsters. It won't be long before they come knocking on our door for Seamus Coleman. I think this lad will be a class act; Moyes has found a real gem.

Bit too optimistic there I think Ian.

Moyes clearly admires SAF, and rightly so. But whilst I personally thing Taggart was wrong in having so much faith in his oldies like Neville, Giggs and Scholes, he at least does have a squad (including some promising youngsters) to rotate.

Moyes doesn't have that yet. We've a mix of youngsters — some very promising (Rodwell), some who've had a taste and may develop (Gosling), some who've had very brief showings (Coleman, Agard) and need more development chances — even on loan, and those who look like it's passed them by (Vaughan, Anichebe, Turner, Ruddy, Jutkiewicz).

The bottom line is we still need a bigger squad to compete, so that we can deal with the inevitable (double underline) injuries and loss of form.

Neville is already in his 30s. Cahill almost there. Not long before in a couple of years you've got Arteta and co pushing 30. The squad has to evolve, bringing in 1-2 "first 11" type players every year to allow for natural wastage. Not 1 out, 1-2 in.

To be blunt, no. Because not only will the Sky Four by and large have the money to improve at any given time, we're also behind the likes of Man City, Tottenham and Aston Villa in terms of money and long-term fighting power.

Not only has our time not come, the sad fact is that a top seven finish next year would be a remarkable achievement.

Yeah my blue tinted specs say "Yes, we can bridge the gap..." but right now we're still, what, about 20 points off the top... and that is with them in supposed decline. If that margin reduces they will act... also, just because we might not know their youth team as well as our own doesn't mean it isn't good.

And they can also go and get the best youngsters in the world... not just steal ours. It would be a Herculean effort... but I will never stop believing its possible.

Ian, We all would like to think so, But it is still all down to the financial clout, and squad size, when injuries come a calling.

Utd, Chelsea, and Arsenal still have the financial backing, City and Spurs are the same, so all we can hope for is that we stay injury free, and you know as well as I, that won't happen.

I'm 55 and quite convinced I won't live to see another title come to Goodison for the reasons posters have already stated.

As far as trophies go, we are a busted flush while the Club's ownership remains as it is.

The sad thing is we've been saying is it "our time to come" for the past 4 seasons and every summer we waste the chance to get quality players in early enough to let them settle and gel pre-season. We then start the season poorly and play catch up with a great run when it's too late.

We've a great squad at the moment to challenge the Sky 4, as results have proven this year, but I can't see us doing anything different this summer to buck the trend of past transfer window apathy.

Get 'em in early!!!!!

If we stay injury free and out of Europe we may have a chance of Europe next year or crashing the Top 4, but we are over reliant on some of our football players and don't have enough quality on the bench if we lose one or two to injury.

The fact is, the squad is too short on quality to compete in multiple competitions.

The top 3 have the same if not bigger points gap they have enjoyed over the 5th 6th teams for the last number of seasons so it's not something I can agree with.

However, it's nice that Rafa for the second time in his spell has relegated Liverpool from the top 4, only this time there is no back-up...

Looking forward to the Summer...

"I'm wishing on a star......" Great sentiments but we are nowhere near the top 3 in terms of squad and individual talent... unfortunately.

My God, after reading the above I find myself reaching for a large shard of glass to apply to my throat! Surely we should take some heart from the decline of the Sky 4?

I admire United for their attacking football and genuinely high standards on and off the pitch. They are very professional. But the truth is that they haven't produced a home grown player in the past six years. They are split asunder on the issue of the Glazers — look at all the scarves on display last night (I thought Norwich were playing in Europe again). They have sold Ronaldo and didn't even try to replace him if that is possible, Nani is not Ronaldo. They have several brilliant servants plainly at the end of their careers. They look ordinary without Rooney. The jury is out on several of their players. They need a goalkeeper. Sir Alex cannot go on forever. They need a major overhaul and significant investment and it is questionable if they have the means to do this.

Arsenal are at a crossroads, several of their promising players have passed the promising stage.

Liverpool will hopefully be the first of the Sky 4 to implode. The lack of harmony in their operation between Benitez, Parry Gillett and Hicks is tawdry and risible. The players are beginning to become affected by this festering tension and their financial position will be tested if they do not qualify for the CL (I still think they will due to their longstanding pact with the devil).

Chelsea are the best and strongest team on their day and have the purpose in the boardroom to alter their situation but they are rent apart by sex scandals and by an ageing squad.

Yes, they are all still stronger than we are but you have to agree, the gap is closing. Non-qualification for the last four of the CL is evidence of their collective decline.

Also, given some luck, with a fully fit squad, we are perhaps better equipped than we have ever been in all the years of Moyes's tenure. I also doubt that we will qualify for Europe, which could be construed as a bonus given the demands of that dreadful competition. I reserve the right to remain optimistic about our prospects for next season.

I have learnt not to expect anything in the Summer from transfers other than aggressive attempts to remove our best players by bigger clubs, speculation about players clearly beyond our reach (Moutinho), 'watch this space' missives from Buffalo Bill and "It'll be like having two new signings" messages from the medical unit (Gosling, Fellaini)... The sweet misery of being an Evertonian!

The Sky 4 may be in decline but don't forget that Aston Villa, Man City and Spurs are all waiting to take their place.

How can David Moyes be expected to compete with the millions of Spurs/Villa or the billions of City?

For the last few years, it has always been about the money... Now I'm not saying things will change overnight, but, with no Prem sides in the semis of the CL, one of two things will happen.

1/ The Sky 4 will splash the cash; if so, same boat we're in now.
2/ The sky 4 won't splash the cash because they haven't got it.

If so, they will struggle in the Champions League and eventually lose 1 or 2 places in it due to poor performances. This in turn will have an influence on their revenue streams and their ability to buy and pay the wages of the top players and their squad size will decrease. This I believe will present a more level playing field for the prem which can only be good for us.

As for the summer transfer window, with everyone fit and keeping what we have, we're not in bad shape...

Manure, what if Rooney went?
Liverpool, what if Torres went?
Arsenal, what if Fabregas went?
Chelski, another year on the clock for Drogba, Lampard etc etc.

These are all transfers that have been mooted and could happen, Torres especially. Of course Citeh have money to spend, and Appy Harry will wheel and deal... but at least that massive division in money will reduce somewhat.

I would be happier winning a weaker league (because it's ours) than coming 5th in the world's strongest league.

"I'm 55 and quite convinced I won't live to see another title come to Goodison for the reasons posters have already stated."
-----

I think we're only 3 very decent purchases away from a genuine challenge Mike!

Hang on in there!

'You never know what's round corner' is my view.

2 years ago I bet all Man City fans could never imagine a league title win.

One billionaire later and they are in with a realistic chance of winning one in the next few years.

You never know what's going to happen. It may look unlikely that Everton will ever win the league again... but it's not impossible.

We are not that far away... IF we had Rooney, we could challenge now.

I think 3 top drawer players would see us mount a challenge and 5 would see us real genuine title contenders. Whether these people are at the club now (i.e youngsters) I have no idea.

The 5 positions are: right back (perhaps Coleman the answer); right midfield (perhaps Donovan); keeper (I would do everything I could to get Joe Hart in my book); creative midfielder (not simply Rodwell); and a class forward (no idea who — hopefully our manager has earmarked someone).

I heard the Fat Lady singing at Old Trafford last night!!!

We're still way behind the top 3 in terms of squad depth (our first team is comparable). But IF we can get a good quick winger, our first choice squad of 15 players or so is as good as anyone's. I agree that Man U and Liverpool in particular have gone backwards significantly in the last year or two.

If everything goes perfectly, I think we have a chance of finishing 4th next season. Our squad is as good as Spurs, Villa, City and Liverpool now — if we get the rub of the green in terms of injuries and tight games, we could do it.

The big risks are that we may not be able to hold onto some of our key players (Pienaar and Rodwell in particular), we may not be able to find a good winger to add to the squad (look at the difference Donovan's pace made to our play), we might get a lot of injuries again, and other teams around us might improve (City in particular - especially if they end up managed by Mournino next season).

Overall, I'm not optimistic we'll finish 4th, but I'm not pessimistic either. My take is we currently have about a 10% chance of finishing 4th next season. Which is more chance than I've given us for quite some time. If the off-season goes well for us, we might get up to a 25% chance, which would be really exciting.

I am in my 70s and expect to see Everton as champions. I do wish they'd hurry up though.

I hope they hurry up for you too Dick but at least you were alive to see some proper Everton teams.

Dick

"How can David Moyes be expected to compete with the millions of Spurs/Villa or the billions of City? "

If he is a wonderful football manager as many believe, then he will be able to at least, compete. Arsene Wenger seems to balance the books so that argument does not wash with me

Striker & Right side is where we need to strengthen, Donovan and possibly Coleman for the right; striker not sure what we could afford, but hey we did alright without a striker last season.

The big thing is Citeh/Spurs apart the big boys are weaker this year and unless they spend big with a fully fit squad we will be stronger next year, I do think we can mount a challenge then, and yes there will be strong competition just not as strong as before.

Remember, if the league had started in Jan, we would be 3rd.

Tony 10 "I'm wishing on a star......" Great sentiments but we are nowhere near the top 3 in terms of squad and individual talent... unfortunately.

Pick any onte of those teams, ie Manure and compare the 1st 11 to ours: Rooney, Evra shoo-ins but the rest debatable.

Arsenal: Nasri, Arshavin, Van Persie... the rest debatable.
Chelski: Drogba, Essien, Lampard, A Cole... as I say, the rest debatable.

Depth of squad? Look at ours if it's full strength.

I agree with you about the actual first team squads Iain. The bigger issue is the quality of the bench players and reserves, but for Moyes to get us to the point where our first 11-15 players are comparable to the top 3 is I think a great achievement. If we can get a bit lucky and avoid too many injuries next season to the key players in our small squad, we'll have a chance of challenging for a top 4 place I think.

"I think we're only 3 very decent purchases away from a genuine challenge Mike!

Hang on in there!"

I absolutely agree with this sentiment, unfortunately I see 3 very decent purchases as being unlikely, especially given the already started playing down of expectations (see Phil Neville's comment the other day).

A title challenge requires strength in depth, so this kind of tacks on to Ian(OP)'s article the other day, as effectively you need two first team players for every position. Which we are only three players away from.

One of my three would simply be a back-up left back, we could probably get a good enough one for free, his role will be to play the odd game in order to keep Baines fresh.

I think the most unanimous issue on this website is the need for a right winger. This needs to be a first XI player and a match winner. Donovan will do, I'd go for Bentley, maybe Eagles, obviously this all depends on who's available and for what cost. I don't want to argue the merits of individuals yet (mainly because I'm getting pessimistic about our ability to sign anyone at all, let alone choose who it is).

The third, where I seem most at odds with the volume of opinion on here is that we need someone to play the 'Cahill' role. Maybe this is what some of you mean when you say you want a new striker, I'm not sure, but I would have one of Yakubu and Saha in the team next season. I've said before I don't want to get rid of Tim, and he would be the 2nd 'first team player' in that role. This needs to be a Bergkamp type, a striker that drops deep, links up and creates, and doesn't necessarily score 20+ goals a season. I have faith that Saha and Yakubu will provide the goals if we have these creative players behind them. Other options as mentioned elsewhere would be to buy another wide player and use Pienaar and/or Bily in this position.

As I said, the back-up left back could be free, but the two creative attackers are likely to be £5-10M each. Do we have it?

If we found it, we'd have a squad of around 25 players, with depth, injury cover, options from the bench and the ability to rotate where necessary and we could realistically (a word Toffeewebbers love) expect to be in amongst the Sky 4 for the whole season, especially if we fail to make the Europa League this season. (Something which I don't think attracts players the way European football used to).

I'm probably boring the arse off you now but this would leave us with:

GK: Howard, Mucha, Ruddy, Turner
RB: Coleman, Neville, Hibbert (expendable)
LB: Baines, NEW PLAYER
CB: Jagielka, Yobo
CB: Heitinga, Distin
DM: Fellaini, Rodwell
CM: Arteta, Osman
LM: Pienaar, Bilyaletdinov
RM: NEW PLAYER, Gosling, Anichebe (Pienaar/Bilyaletdinov/Osman)
AM/SS: NEW PLAYER, Cahill
CF: Yakubu, Saha, (Anichebe) Vaughan,

Of course there are positions that can still be improved, that'll be true til we've got the World XI playing for us, but it compares well to a lot of other teams.

The key issue, dealt with in other threads is that selling players may be the only way to finance this...

Everton and 'title challenge' do not belong in the same sentence.

"I absolutely agree with this sentiment, unfortunately I see 3 very decent purchases as being unlikely"

Well, that's the rub isn't it.... we may be only 3 players away from a challenging side now... but how long will it take to acquire those players? And will other players have become ineffectual by that stage — meaning that we're chasing our own shadow...

And then we've got to factor in the advancement that other teams are likely to make...

I've no doubt that with a reasonable investment Moyes would have got us to this stage 3 years ago at the latest.

Quick point to Peter regarding the Arsenal comparison:

To an extent, I agree. Wenger is perhaps the most brilliant mind in football and has demonstrated he can compete with the best (well, almost) without spending much money.

There are two flaws in the comparison with Everton though. One, they're in London and have been able to attract players like Bergkamp, Overmars, Henry etc. Two, they are able to (and regularly do) pay 16/17 years olds around £50k a week. Their wage bill is astonishing, although it's part funded by their astonishing stadium and corporate appeal.

Peter Warren

You say Arsene Wenger has a successful team and manages to balance the books. I have two points:-

1. Arsenal have won bugger all over the last 6 years. So you might argue Wenger can't compete and balance the books.

2. Its a whole lot easier to balance the books when you can fill a 60, 000 capacity stadium and charge £50 a ticket.

Poor old Moyes can only get half capacity at Goodison and even then Everton rarely have a full stadium.

We're not fashionable enough to be 'Sky 4'.

In the eyes of the media, there's only one club from Liverpool — and it's not us.

It would take us winning a lot of trophies, and the the shite doing a Leeds, for that to ever change.

Dream on brothers.... It'll soon be Christmas!!!

To be honest I dont want Everton becoming a Sky 4 side.

I'd hate to see Fellaini doing poxy sports drinks adverts.

I'd hate to see Pienaar fronting the latest xbox game.

I'd hate to see Arteta on the front page of The Sun because he's cheated on his wife.

I'd hate to see Rodwell dating a glamour model who likes getting pictured fallin out of nightclubs without any knickers.

A great man once said 'Everton are the peoples club'.

Fuck being a Sky team. Everton belong to the people. We are a honest traditional club with a decent hard working atitude.

Sky has made the modern footballers into publicity seeking tarts. The likes of Beckham and Rooney will put their names to anything.

Everton are one of the few 'old school' clubs left and I for one am proud.

Dick,

No offence - but that's a crock of shite.

I can't understand the mentality of anyone who doesn't want our team to succeed...in this day and age that means becoming part of the sky cartel - whether we like it or not..

If you want to support a paragon of virtue..then can I suggest the local salvation army team...because I've news that may shatter your little fantasy - the behaviour you describe above goes on all throughout the land - and it is not exclusive to footballers or even the 'sky 4' - to be honest I can't give you any guarantees that you won't encounter such behaviour at the salvo's....

Moysies statement was a worthless soundbite. Sorry to shatter your dellusions.

Agree with Ciarán, besides footballers have always endorsed products since the 1950's, so it's nothing new. The problem with us not being in the CL, is that we struggle to attract players when CL teams are sniffing round. Plus players like Pienaar & Arteta who are in their late 20's, may want to move to a club with CL potential, and therefore we struggle to keep our better players-and of course there's the money.

So are we 3 players short of a prem winning side (which sounds like we're 2 sandwiches short of a picnic), we are and we probably always will be.

25 Mike Allison:
"The key issue, dealt with in other threads is that selling players may be the only way to finance this... "

26 Paddy Francis:
"Everton and 'title challenge' do not belong in the same sentence. "

I think combine the two and there you have it. Without investment / take over, we will always be 2-3 players short.

In other words, we'd sell our TV to buy a DVD player...

I don't care what anybody says, Moyes needs to deliver the Title next season or be in breach of the "24 Year Rule" & that would be unforgivable! Anyway, didn't Aston villa last win the title using only 14 players?

Is it me or anyone else noticed how the lack of the BIG FOUR seems not to be mentioned too much, Why is it? Is it because the Red Shower are not in the mix, or because Man City, Villa, even Spurs "although no doubt the press want them to be a big 4 mentioned team" have gate crashed Sky TV's money pit. Or should they start saying the BIG 3 Chelsea, Man-Ure and Arsenal. So what is it Big 3/4/5/6/... to include the Red Shower.

I am afraid I tend to agree with Mike McLean. As long as Kenwright remains in charge of our club, then it will be all downhill!

I'm 25, and I'm pretty sure I won't see Everton win the league in MY lifetime, nevermind the guys who are 55 and 70 above!

Re: Dick Anderson: Your argument is that you'd rather Everton never won anything... are you mad?

Lee, I wouldnt bet on that. I have been watching the blues for over 50 years and have seen some great and not-so-great times.

Everything goes in cycles and our cycle is definitely on the up while Man Utd' and Liverpool's are on the wane.

I really think we will win a trophy before too long and then success breeds success.

It is never easy but it is a TEAM game as opposed to a collection of stars — and that is where I believe we will be better than some of the moneybags teams.