1. We try our BEST to get into the Europa League and then getting dumped out.

2.Benfica completley smashed us.

3.The scum get dumped out of the Champions League and then have this attitude that the Europa League is beneath them, but then take the opinion of "oh well, if we have to win it" which it is looking increasingly likely that they will!!!!!!!!

4.Hearing Phil 'making strategic comments again' Neville, on the possibility that we won't be signing anyone in the summer because we don't need them... Oh I forgot Fellaini — he'll be like a new signing for us.

5.I don't doubt that we've made progress over the years but am I on my own with this thought process?

Also there was the fact that, despite us outplaying them, this worst Liverpool team in living memory beat us twice. Kind of puts into context, all this chat about how great we are and what a wonderful future we have. We should wait until we actually win something before shooting off at the mouth.

If we played Benfica a third time I doubt we would scrape a win... let alone give them the kind of hiding dished out by Liverpoool tonight.

I am puzzled as to why that should be. In the skills department, our players, man for man, are the equal and arguably better than them, so skill is not the problem.

Nor can it be lack of fitness because our squad can see out a game as strong or better than them and, except for one player, our lot do not shirk the effort. It was noticeable that the moves leading to each of their 4 goals started with a hoofed ball so we can rule out that argument.

If it's not ball skills, fitness, effort or hoofball... what can it be?

One thing that could provide a clue was, regardless of how much pressure their defence was under they always had one and often two players as far forward as the offside rule would allow. In similar situations, every man Jack of our team would be hurtling toward our own area, thus allowing the opposition to occupy wide open spaces in our half of the pitch. This makes it much harder to create fast counter-attacks.

I don't for one minute suggest that I my offering is necessarily the best or only answer... Any thoughts people?

The reality is that shit will ALWAYS happen, we`ve done ok if we finish 8th and that`s as good as we can expect it to get!

It's a reason we never need to worry ourselves with Moyes being recruited to Man U. The Fat Spanish Waiter knows how to play in Europe, if anything he's better suited to it where the game is slower and less physical.

It's another reason I'm not arsed about qualifying for the Europa League. We've a better chance of winning a domestic trophy not playing in Europe and we won't have to suffer the embarrassment of being tonked by a Romanian or Portuguese side.

Their problem this season has been that we have seen that some of those players are over-rated, they have struggled without Gerrard and Torres, and their manager seems to be on some kind of suicide mission tactically. With the players they've got, and the experience those players have, they should comfortably be in the top 4, despite what the chasers have spent. Worst in living memory — even I can remember one of the Roy Evans team, with players like Phil Babb FFS that finished 7th or 8th.

Second point: you cannot compare our tie with Benfica to theirs — we had THIRTEEN first team players missing for the away leg and NINE for the home leg. They had their full first choice 11 starting last night. Despite that, Benfica were by far the better side until the Shite scored against the run of play. Crowd got behind them, confidence grew, and the Shite fully deserved their win thereafter.

This puts our Sporting tie into context. We were coasting at 2-0 and conceded a silly goal. The players then decided not to turn up in Portugal, as I and thousands of others sadly witnessed. More experience of this type of situation would have helped massively, whereas our side had maybe 50 European games between the lot of them.

To answer the question, we do need Europe and we don't. If you believe that Everton are just a player or two, and a relatively injury free season, away from a VERY good season, then we don't — as the experience could be built upon in the CL when we get there. If you believe we are fundamentally not going to get any better than we are, we need it to continue that experience gaining.

And as for Fulham, they have been brilliant in Europe and good luck to them. But why use them to degrade ourselves? That's the beauty of football, and it would be pretty shit if everything went to form.

Then away from home we pick an attacking side and then Moyes asks them to just defend for their lives — no intent whatsoever of trying to score, so why leave the likes of Rodwell and Gosling on the bench? I am still puzzled as to how Bily reappeared in the second half of that match.

So our failures in Europe are simply down to a compete lack of tactical nouse by our manager and I agree this is why he will never be manager of Man U.

We need to qualify for Europe to keep and attract players but we are kidding ourselves if we can ever win the competition whilst Moyes is so tactically naive. Let's hope he can learn but he doesn't seem to have done over the past 5 years.

There was 5 mins of injury time added to the game against Valencia last night, at 94min and 40 secs Madrid decided to take off Aguerro, he walks off the pitch, the ref runs over to him and yellow cards him. I wonder why he did that, I thought to myself, I bet he will now be suspended for the 1st leg against Liverpool. Sure enough, caption come up, Aguerro misses next Europa game.

Reason ref booked him, walking from the field too slowly!!!!?????

Don't ever tell me that Liverpool are not totally mocked. The possesion figures for Liverpool v Benficea - 32% v 68%, Liverpool still won 4-1, Benitez knows how to set up a team for a European game, Mr Moyes does not.

And thanks for explaining your point more clearly. I think the big difference is the tactical knowledge of Benitez far outweighs Moyes's, and until DM starts to learn more from his mistakes, we will stay where we are.

In Europe we are a joke and after 5 years Moyes has not learned a thing. Two-nil up and cruising in the home leg, Cahill went off and instead of keeping things tight, he went 442... that was unforgivable.

When it comes to the crunch, we will usually play shit and bottle it; Liverpool sadly rise to the occasion. Watching them brush aside a side that hammered us and are well clear of the team that hammered and knocked us out made me feel sick.

What I will agree with you is that he is a cunt. The problem all of us have is we rate our players far higher than the rest of football does.

Liverpool have started winning again because they have gone back to what they do best in Europe, letting a superior team have all the possession, even at Anfield, then harassing them into mistakes before punting it long for Gerrard and Torres. That's why they can't win the league and I sure wouldn't want to see Everton play that way. I wouldn't swap any of our midfield for their pack of yardog workhorses.