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Fair Play League
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I heard on the radio that Birmingham still have something to play for this season because eighth place will likely get them European football next season via the fair play league.
Seeing as we look good for eighth, especially as Birmingham are getting well beat at City, where does this leave us?
In the Fair Play League we're currently 11th and Birmingham are 17th, respectively.
I'm confused as to how this works and relates to European places as it always seems to be changing. Can anyone shed any light?
http://www.premierleague.com/page/FairPlayTable/0,,12306,00.html
Richard Murray, Posted 11/04/2010 at 17:38:38
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I'm guessing Portsmouth now go into the Europa for reaching the FA Cup Final.
They will be joined by the team which finished 5th. And because Man Utd won the League Cup the team that finishes 6th also qualifies for Europa.
At the moment the three places are going to:-
1. Spurs (5th)
2. Liverpool (6th)
3. Portsmouth (FA Cup Finalists)
If Liverpool win the Europa Cup does that open up another spot? Does 7th come into it? That's Villa's spot at the moment but Everton can catch them.
Can't see how 8th comes into play?
They will be joined by the team which finished 5th. And because Man Utd won the League Cup the team that finishes 6th also qualifies for Europa.
At the moment the three places are going to:-
1. Spurs (5th)
2. Liverpool (6th)
3. Portsmouth (FA Cup Finalists)
If Liverpool win the Europa Cup does that open up another spot? Does 7th come into it? That's Villa's spot at the moment but Everton can catch them.
Can't see how 8th comes into play?
Dick,Portsmouth have no licence to play in Europe, should they win the FA Cup.
Agree with you on 8th; it's 7th or nothing, for sure.
Portsmouth will not be in Europe next season whether they win the Cup or not as they do not possess the necessary Uefa license needed to play in Europe. The club didn't register for it.
As long as Spurs finish in the top 6, 7th place will also be a Europa place.
I'm not sure about the fair play league but I think Uefa give an extra place to the league with the best disciplinary record which you would assume means that 8th place comes in to play.
I should add, that's if a) they are awarding a place for this; and b) the English League finishes top of the Fair Play League.
Just looked on Wikipedia. Uefa awards 3 places to the top 3 European leagues in their Fair Play league. The qualifying league then awards the place to the top team in their own Fair Play League that has not already qualified for Europe (not sure who that currently is the Prem). The team will enter the Europa League at the 1st qualifying round.
Ignore my comment about spurs. 7th place will get in to Europe. Full Stop.
That clears that up then.
So realistically Everton have to finish above Liverpool or Villa to get into Europe.
Not going to be easy... Especially as we have Villa away next. Lose that one and Europe is gone, I would guess.
Not going to be easy... Especially as we have Villa away next. Lose that one and Europe is gone, I would guess.
What if... Liverpool won the Europa League, they then qualify for the Europa League next year as winners of the Europa League... then wouldn't there qualification through the league drop down another place to 8th so Everton could qualify this way?
I'd much rather they didn't win and Everton didn't qualify but every cloud has a silver lining!
I'd much rather they didn't win and Everton didn't qualify but every cloud has a silver lining!
If Liverpool win the Europa League, the Premier League does not get an extra place, the only extra place up for grabs is the through the Fair Play League.
All kinds of conjecture always occurs at this time of the season and paranoia regarding our neighbours.
But watch out for Liverpool claiming a Champions League place if they win the Europa, and you can bet that if they get it, a smaller country will lose a place and be demoted to the Europa, not giving Liverpool's place to the English league. Does sound like paranoia doesn't it... but they do have 'form' for changing the rules... 'Watch this space!'
If Liverpool win Europa League and we finish, 7th Liverpool will end up in Europe through the Europa League Champions which would deny 7th place in the League a spot in Europe :(
It's dead simple:
We have to finish 7th or better. So we need to catch someone. I think we have to beat Villa and even then, we're more likely to catch Spurs. They should fall away now, but the cushion looks too big. Also, Villa have too much of a cushion and an easy run in to fall away.
The only complication is if we get 7th and the RS get 8th but win the Europa League, we're then dumped out.
To make sure people understand, if the RS win the EL and we get 8th, then we don't get in. The RS winning the EL can only hinder us and will not help us.
We have to finish 7th or better. So we need to catch someone. I think we have to beat Villa and even then, we're more likely to catch Spurs. They should fall away now, but the cushion looks too big. Also, Villa have too much of a cushion and an easy run in to fall away.
The only complication is if we get 7th and the RS get 8th but win the Europa League, we're then dumped out.
To make sure people understand, if the RS win the EL and we get 8th, then we don't get in. The RS winning the EL can only hinder us and will not help us.
Why does 7th lose its spot if Liverpool finish 8th? I thought that it just means if Liverpool win the europa and a league positio (i.e. qualify twice) then the extra position doesn't become available.
Whats the point in giving the English football 3 europa positions but saying you lose one if a side wins the europa.
Also if this is the case NB. that Fulham are still in it also!!
Whats the point in giving the English football 3 europa positions but saying you lose one if a side wins the europa.
Also if this is the case NB. that Fulham are still in it also!!
It's an old chestnut at this time of the year, but I'm still not sure.
In the past the losers in the FA Cup Final took a Euro place if the winners were already in Europe - eg Chelsea beat Portsmouth.
But not in the League Cup.
Anyone able to update us on Europa League and the FA Cup losers?
So are there only two places from the League meaning seventh doesn't make it?
Peter, I haven't checked all the rules etc but I'm sure that 5th place automatically gets a Europa league spot, then the League Cup winners also get a spot (but this was Man U who have already qualified for europe) so their place goes to 6th place and then the FA cup winners also get a place, but Chelsea have already qualified and Portsmouth have not applied for a uefa license for next season so cannot play in europe, therefore their place would then also become available through finishing 7th in the league.
The only dilemma is if Liverpool, who should finish in europe next season through the league were also to win the Europa league. My question is if they qualify through winning the Europa League surely their qualification via the league would mean 8th spot would also become available. But maybe this is not the case, does anyone know the actual rules?
The only dilemma is if Liverpool, who should finish in europe next season through the league were also to win the Europa league. My question is if they qualify through winning the Europa League surely their qualification via the league would mean 8th spot would also become available. But maybe this is not the case, does anyone know the actual rules?
There's 3 places for English teams in the Europa so that's 5th, 6th and 7th at the moment. An additional place will be allowed if this season's winner, who has automatic qualification for next season, has not qualified by placings. So if the RS win the Europa and finish in the top 7 then there will be no extra place, but if Fulham win the Europa they will take a 4th spot along with 5th, 6th and 7th.
This is assuming Portsmouth do not win their appeal and are allowed to play in the Europa in which case it will only be 5th and 6th places to qualify.
ps: Is there still such a thing as the Intertoto Cup and did we enter for it?
I've always found the following website to be very accurate regarding qualifying for Europe.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2010.html
Regarding Europe, I'm of the understanding that 1-3 automatically qualify for the Champions League, 4th has to play a qualifier. 5th place receives a place in the Europa League and the two domestic cup winners qualify for the Europa League.
However, that's where the complications arise. If the winners of the two domestic cup competition have already qualified for Europe via league placings 1-5. Then the places are offered to the 6th placed team in the league in case of the League Cup and the losing finalist in respect of the FA Cup. From this, if the losing finalist has already qualified via the league as we did last season finishing 5th. 7th place is given a uropean berth
In this year's case Chelsea have qualified via their league placing and Portsmouth opted against applying for a Uefa Licence and have missed the dealine which was March 1st 2010. Meaning 7th should receive a Europa place.
The only other ways of getting in is via the Fair Play League or winning the Europa league. Currently Liverpool and Fulham can qualify via winning the Europa League if Liverpool win it and qualify via league placing no additional place (8th) will be granted in the league. Instead they would automatically qulaify for the group stage and not have to play a first round qualifier. If Fulham win they will qualify and go straight into the group stage along with 5th 6th and 7th who will enter in the qualifying stages or first round.
With regards to the Fair Play league the top three nations will also have an additional representative. This will be the top ranked team from the Fair Play league within that country who hasn't already qualified. Currently this is Fulham but if they win it will fall to Burnley. However, the table hasn't been updated since 28th Feb and will be subject to change
http://www.premierleague.com/page/FairPlayTable
I hope this makes sense as i haven't re-read it through it due to lack of time.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2010.html
Regarding Europe, I'm of the understanding that 1-3 automatically qualify for the Champions League, 4th has to play a qualifier. 5th place receives a place in the Europa League and the two domestic cup winners qualify for the Europa League.
However, that's where the complications arise. If the winners of the two domestic cup competition have already qualified for Europe via league placings 1-5. Then the places are offered to the 6th placed team in the league in case of the League Cup and the losing finalist in respect of the FA Cup. From this, if the losing finalist has already qualified via the league as we did last season finishing 5th. 7th place is given a uropean berth
In this year's case Chelsea have qualified via their league placing and Portsmouth opted against applying for a Uefa Licence and have missed the dealine which was March 1st 2010. Meaning 7th should receive a Europa place.
The only other ways of getting in is via the Fair Play League or winning the Europa league. Currently Liverpool and Fulham can qualify via winning the Europa League if Liverpool win it and qualify via league placing no additional place (8th) will be granted in the league. Instead they would automatically qulaify for the group stage and not have to play a first round qualifier. If Fulham win they will qualify and go straight into the group stage along with 5th 6th and 7th who will enter in the qualifying stages or first round.
With regards to the Fair Play league the top three nations will also have an additional representative. This will be the top ranked team from the Fair Play league within that country who hasn't already qualified. Currently this is Fulham but if they win it will fall to Burnley. However, the table hasn't been updated since 28th Feb and will be subject to change
http://www.premierleague.com/page/FairPlayTable
I hope this makes sense as i haven't re-read it through it due to lack of time.
Eric, the InterToto was disbanded a couple of years ago.
Let's just go out to win every game and see where we end up, instead of all these ifs and buts.
Vincent has hit the nail on the head.
Now lets win matches and qualify!
Now lets win matches and qualify!
Portsmouth can't play in Europe so 7th qualifies. If Liverpool (or Fulham) win the Europa league and finish OUTSIDE the top 7, England would have 4 teams in next year's Europa League. If Liverpool win it and finish INSIDE the top 7, the place doesn't move down and England would only have 3 teams in next season's Europa League.
1st to 4th in the Prem get a Champs League spot. 5th get a Europa and the two domestic cups get a Europa place. If the League Cup winners are already in Europe via the league then that place reverts to 6th in the Prem. Should the FA Cup winners already have qualified for Europe, then the runners up get that spot, unless they to are in Europe already in which case 7th in the Prem will get in.
However to avoid a situation like when the RS qualified for the CL despite having not qualified (rule change to let them in), the laws changed so that in the event the CL winners failed to qualify via the league then they would take that countries lowest place. i.e tough titties to whoever finihes 4th. The same I would assume aplies to the Europa League places, although I don't know for sure.
This year has the added complication of Pompey not applying for a Uefa licence to allow them to register for Euro competitions. So in theory despite reaching the Cup Final they will not be in Europe. I don't know if they can appeal this or register late.
However to avoid a situation like when the RS qualified for the CL despite having not qualified (rule change to let them in), the laws changed so that in the event the CL winners failed to qualify via the league then they would take that countries lowest place. i.e tough titties to whoever finihes 4th. The same I would assume aplies to the Europa League places, although I don't know for sure.
This year has the added complication of Pompey not applying for a Uefa licence to allow them to register for Euro competitions. So in theory despite reaching the Cup Final they will not be in Europe. I don't know if they can appeal this or register late.
So we gonna do a Sven at City, and play crap so we don't get a yellow card and get hammered by Boro last day?
Portsmouth are gonna appeal:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8558580.stm
I suppose it depends on who finishes 7th whether they get it or not. Bet you last dollar if we finish 7th they "win" their appeal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8558580.stm
I suppose it depends on who finishes 7th whether they get it or not. Bet you last dollar if we finish 7th they "win" their appeal.
I can't believe I just read all of the above and still not fully understand!
It's possible the cloudy rules and lack of clarification is so that Uefa can 'pick' what happens to teams when the time comes?
It's possible the cloudy rules and lack of clarification is so that Uefa can 'pick' what happens to teams when the time comes?
Just got off the Europa League Web Site. Winners of this years Europa Cup qualify automatically. If That is the RS, then 5th, 6th only will be in europe. If the RS finish 5th or 6th it will go down to 7th, IE: no extra place. If Fulham win it then again it will be 5th and 6th only, 7th will not get in. If neither the RS or Fulham win it then positions 5th, 6th and 7th will qualify. Portsmouth are the fly in the ointment, if the manage to get a Uefa licence then they will get a place, highly unlikely at this stage but you never know. If they do then 5th and 6th only qualify. Fair Play League is a lottery so no point looking at that route I think. We have to finish 6th to guarantee a place, alas too much to do in my opinion.
I hope Portsmouth lose their appeal. Not because it gives Everton more chance of Europa, as I can't say I'm that fussed about it, and it hasn't done Spurs or Man City harm having a years time out from it. It's because what is the point in having a finacial criteria and a time deadline for registering, if you can just ignore it, then appeal later? They are still in huge financial trouble and would just waste a place next year with a Championship side being in Europe!
This question of European qualification has been discussed at least twice on here in the last few weeks. I was just going to re-post my contribution to one of the previous threads.
However, I couldn't find the Mailbag archive between 9th February and 6th April to copy my original post. Is that period now lost in cyberspace or will it reappear at some point? Or am I not looking in the right place?
Anyway, congratulations to Vincent, that was the best summing up I've read on this subject.
However, I couldn't find the Mailbag archive between 9th February and 6th April to copy my original post. Is that period now lost in cyberspace or will it reappear at some point? Or am I not looking in the right place?
Anyway, congratulations to Vincent, that was the best summing up I've read on this subject.
Vincent Steele, Portsmouth did not opt to not apply for a Uefa license. The FA told them in no uncertain terms they where not allowed to apply for one because they had been placed into administration.
Portsmouth are up in arms about this now, and will lodge and official complaint to the FA. Uefa cannot get involved because it's up to the presiding league who can and cannot apply for the license in the first place. The FA have made it pretty clear, even if they do lodge a complaint, that they won't budge from their position and hence they won't be getting any license.
Portsmouth are up in arms about this now, and will lodge and official complaint to the FA. Uefa cannot get involved because it's up to the presiding league who can and cannot apply for the license in the first place. The FA have made it pretty clear, even if they do lodge a complaint, that they won't budge from their position and hence they won't be getting any license.
My understanding of this current season's qualification is that if the Shite win the Europa Cup then an additional place will be not be available.
If Fulham win the Europa and finish outside the top 8 and Chelsea win the FA cup then Fulham will take the place of 7th qualifying. There will not be an additional place generated from the FA Cup this year due to the Portsmouth saga. If neither the Shite or Fulham win the Europa 7th place will be good enough to qualify for a Europa spot.
Ironically if Portsmouth hadn't fallen foul of the FA's refusal to allow them a license and they won the FA Cup, 7th would not qualify since only 3 Europa places are available.
Then there is the Fair Play League system, and should England finish in to top 3 of the Fair Play League, and Fulham don't qualify through winning the Europa, as things currently stand, it will be likely them that will qualify through the Fair Play League. It's a very grey area...
If Fulham win the Europa and finish outside the top 8 and Chelsea win the FA cup then Fulham will take the place of 7th qualifying. There will not be an additional place generated from the FA Cup this year due to the Portsmouth saga. If neither the Shite or Fulham win the Europa 7th place will be good enough to qualify for a Europa spot.
Ironically if Portsmouth hadn't fallen foul of the FA's refusal to allow them a license and they won the FA Cup, 7th would not qualify since only 3 Europa places are available.
Then there is the Fair Play League system, and should England finish in to top 3 of the Fair Play League, and Fulham don't qualify through winning the Europa, as things currently stand, it will be likely them that will qualify through the Fair Play League. It's a very grey area...
To quickly add an extra point to my above post, which I failed to add, is this:
5th is guaranteed
6th is not guaranteed
7th ^^
Cup winners, outside of qualifying for the Europa league, qualify ahead of league finishes in 6th and 7th respectively.
5th is guaranteed
6th is not guaranteed
7th ^^
Cup winners, outside of qualifying for the Europa league, qualify ahead of league finishes in 6th and 7th respectively.
So basically what you don't want is some team outside the top 7 winning any of the cups unless it's your team that does it, since you will loose a place. This season, because Portsmouth cannot qualify, an additional place will not be generated, and therefore 6th & 7th will qualify for the first round.
However, the fly-in-the-eye issue arises if Fulham win the Europa League or qualify through Fair Play and they don't finish in the top 7. That would remove the team in 7th place from qualifying since there is no extra (4th) Europa place— that's what I got from Uefa.com at least.
The real kicker in the balls, is the 3rd Europa qualifying team taking the place of 7th, which will happen. So it's imperative we finish at least 6th to get into the Europa League if it's what we need.
Paul
I would disagree with your last post on 2 counts:-
1. 6th place is now guaranteed a place in the Europa League because Man Utd won the Carling Cup and that place reverts to the next placed league position.
2. If Fulham qualify in either of the ways you mention, it is an extra place and is not at the expense of the team finishing 7th.
The only way 7th place will not now qualify is if Portsmouth win their appeal and are granted a UEFA license for next season. This should, of course, be a very remote possibility but nothing surprises me any more.
From our point of view, we just have to make sure we get at least 7th, starting with 3 points tonight.
I would disagree with your last post on 2 counts:-
1. 6th place is now guaranteed a place in the Europa League because Man Utd won the Carling Cup and that place reverts to the next placed league position.
2. If Fulham qualify in either of the ways you mention, it is an extra place and is not at the expense of the team finishing 7th.
The only way 7th place will not now qualify is if Portsmouth win their appeal and are granted a UEFA license for next season. This should, of course, be a very remote possibility but nothing surprises me any more.
From our point of view, we just have to make sure we get at least 7th, starting with 3 points tonight.
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1 Posted 12/04/2010 at 08:07:13
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