The Mail Bag

Big Club Bias

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Whilst watching the Portsmouth/Spurs FA Cup Semi-FInal, I caught a reference to the Chelsea/Villa semi-final which I previously hadn't seen. Why the hell wasn't Terry sent off for that tackle on Milner? And surely Villa should have had a penalty??!! Milner was lucky to walk away from that challenge unscathed.

I don't deny that Chelsea are probably the best team in the Premier League, but surely officials should be prepared to show a bit more courage when having to make those big decisions? They "bottle" it too many times when big names are involved for it not to be a coincidence, but it's part of what they are paid for.

Our stone bonking penalty that wasn't awarded when we played Liverpool the other season (Carragher's foul) is a case in point. And what if we were a team on the brink of relegation needing 3 points??

Howard Webb hasn't had a great season, and he is often held up as a top referee. Im not going to raise the issue of replays being accepted, because in the incidents I have seen, there simply was no need for a replay, a penalty and booking should have been given, no ifs or buts.

Perhaps if other managers, ours included, spoke as unequivocally as O'Neill did, the powers that be just might instruct officials to come down just as hard on the Terrys and Gerrards of this world as the other "lesser" lights.

Let's wish Villa luck after we have beaten them on Wednesday when Saha wins us a certain penalty??!!
John Brennan, Washington Tyne and Wear     Posted 11/04/2010 at 19:46:25

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Peter Barry
1   Posted 12/04/2010 at 06:38:00

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How interesting it was to see the USELESS Howard Web make virtually the same PATHETIC useless mistakes in the Semi Final as he made when he was in charge for the Everton - WHU match. Then just think he is England's Referee rep at the World Cup. We will be rightly looked on as a JOKE.
Dave Wilson
2   Posted 12/04/2010 at 06:44:47

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Football is an unrehearsed live entertainment, warts 'n' all. The guy in the middle has always, does and will always, make errors

Please let's ditch this "big club bias" claim, it's nonsense. Did you see how offside Drogba was a OT last week, or the "penalty" that wasn't awarded against Garry Neville?

Chelsea have been denied at least a couple of Champions League victories by poor refereeing decisions (not to mention conceding a goal that never was at Anfield).

We are all "victims" of poor refereeing decisions, even the big guys.
Gavin Ramejkis
3   Posted 12/04/2010 at 08:32:55

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Got to disagree Dave, think the FA can't let their flagship event take place without a glamour side there. One mistake possibly but the penalty was impossible to miss; don't forget you have the ref and his assistant running the line that could have seen that together with another official watching from the stands and they are all in comms link through earpieces.

As far as the assault on Milner goes, funny how the post reaction hasn't included the old bullshit "the FA will review the footage and consider if any further action is necessary", again how many officials saw it?

Dave Wilson
4   Posted 12/04/2010 at 09:10:32

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Agreed the tackle by Terry on Milner was a disgrace. But I personally don't think Villa's penalty claim was as clear-cut as the one Man U had in last season's semi... just days after Moyes had made the very same "Big club bias" claim.

We tend to forget the ones that go in our favour.
Colin Potter
5   Posted 12/04/2010 at 09:36:21

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With the money swimming around in the Premier League, maybe it would be a good idea to bring over a few referees from the continent, especially for the games that involve relegation and FA Cup games, from the quarter finals to the final.
David Hallwood
6   Posted 12/04/2010 at 10:14:58

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Peter Barry beat me to it; When he came onto the scene I thought Webb was a class act... even after the WHU game, I thought maybe he'd just had a bad day at the office, but the semi-final shows that he's either a bottler or he's just not very good. I go with the latter.
Tony J Williams
7   Posted 12/04/2010 at 10:39:25

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Colin, the refs from the Spanish/Italian league are even more picky than the dopes we have here. It is a hard job and a thankless task and I have no idea why a person would want to be a ref (money is getting better now though).

I think we should get some in from the Scottish League, as they play the game the way it used to be, a manly sport where hard tackles were applauded not booked.
Norman Merrill
8   Posted 12/04/2010 at 11:20:49

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If my memory serves me right, Howard Webb, was sent home early from the 2008 European Championships, for some misdemeanor, relating to cards issue.
Paddy Francis
9   Posted 12/04/2010 at 11:24:35

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"Our stone bonking penalty that wasn't awarded when we played Liverpool the other season (Carragher's foul) is a case in point."

No offence (and I agree, obviously, it was a pen), but that game was 20 October 2007... 2007! We're in 2010 now, I think it's time for some "closure" on that, John.

I think a major problem (even if it's only one of perception) is the fact that the so-called "top" refs officiate the big teams on a more regular basis. Accordingly, they have closer relationships with players such as Terry, Gerrard, Rooney etc because they ref their games all the time.

I don't know this for a fact, but if I was a ref on, say £60k a year, who obviously loves footy, I'd be chuffed if the England captain before a game came over and said "Hi, how are the kids" or something. So, basically, they have a chance to butter the refs up and maybe this explains their apparently preferential treatment.

In other words, I don't think the refs mean to cheat, I just think they might be tempted to give players they ref often more benefit of the doubt. And, because of the effect this has, it's just as bad ultimately.
Sam Higgins
10   Posted 12/04/2010 at 13:05:31

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I have a vested interest in Villa as my old man and brother support them so I was supporting them on Saturday.

Webb completely bottled it. For him, I feel it was too soon into the game, and so he let Chelsea off the hook. I wonder if the decision would've gone Villa's way though? He seems a bit hesitant to award pens at the moment, as we found to our cost aganst the Hammers.

But it was Terry's challenge that really rankled me. If Milner's studs had got stuck in the ground, the injury would of been hideous. Does this utter motherfucker get away with everything? It seems so. His misses is back with him despite utter humiliaition. And now the refs are condoning acts of brutality on the pitch!!

One rule for England first eleven players and another for all else.

Brian Lawlor
11   Posted 12/04/2010 at 14:41:20

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Hmm. The whole point of this post is about bias towards the big clubs in general when they play other clubs so pointing out ref decisions in a game involving the biggest 2 clubs i.e man utd and chelea completely misses the point!!. The point is the bias when they play everyone else!!
Ciarán McGlone
12   Posted 12/04/2010 at 16:42:45

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Absolutely shocking tackle... hardly proves a big club bias though.

Another unfounded conspiracy theory.
Mike Green
13   Posted 12/04/2010 at 16:46:57

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I missed the pen incident but Terry's tackle on Milner was a red card all day long.

Webb gave him a yellow, which means a) that he saw it b) that he recognised it as a foul and c) deemed it bad enough to issue a card.

IMO - the reason it was yellow and not red was simply down to Webb weighing up the possible implications of sending Terry off for the challenge and bottled it for the half-way house of yellow.

If it'd been Fellaini, he'd be off in a shot.
Tony Waring
14   Posted 12/04/2010 at 17:24:18

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Mike Green... your final sentence is spot on.
Mike Green
15   Posted 12/04/2010 at 17:16:01

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Also....

I genuinely believe that Man Utd / Arsenal / Chelsea and Liverpool are systematically drilled on how to hound and harrass referees to the extent where they just can't be arsed with it anymore. Top that with the way the managers react if a decision doesn't go their way (Ferguson should be put up in front of a tribunal for God's sake) then no wonder their natural inclination becomes one of letting it go.

I don't think they do it because they want to see the big boys win, I just think they can do without the aggravation — why else do so many decisons go for the home team in a game? The path of least resistance — and the big clubs and their big name players are no different.
Brian Lawlor
16   Posted 12/04/2010 at 17:29:53

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It's also England player bias, especially as it's World Cup year and of course they have been through a lot recently the sensitive souls havent they!?

How much does Gerrard get away with? V-sign at ref and elbowing off the ball (not to mention assaulting DJs).

Mike Allison
17   Posted 12/04/2010 at 18:40:42

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There's no conspiracy, refs are subconsciously biased toward the team they (and everyone else) expects to win, because they know that a mistake that enables the result that was likely anyway isn't as big as a mistake that causes the unexpected result.

Eg, Man Utd v Burnley, you give Man Utd a dodgy penalty, everyone can say 'oh well, Man Utd would have won anyway, they're better' and so you've had less impact. Give Burnley the dodgy decision and you've caused a major shock result with your mistake and everyone will point that out: 'Burnley never would have won if it wasn't for that idiot's decision'

Its basic psychology really. We actually started to benefit from it for a while last season.
Brian Waring
18   Posted 12/04/2010 at 19:06:57

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There has probably been loads of decisions gone our way against the so-called lesser teams below us, but we conveniently forget those.
Sean O'Flynn
19   Posted 12/04/2010 at 19:58:10

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Did anyone else notice Gabriel Agbonlahor pulling John Obi Mikel's shirt before he was fouled? Chelsea should have had a free kick. But it was a hard one for the referee to see.

However, Webb has no excuse for not sending off John Terry, especially if you compare it to Karl Henry's sending off at the Emirates last week.
Dave Wilson
20   Posted 12/04/2010 at 20:00:00

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If the referees favour the big Clubs, then when Man U played Chelsea, he`d have made sure he got the decisions right for both sides; he didn't, we had two of the worst decisions of the season in the space of 10 minutes, he fucked them both up.

Conclusive proof that their is no evil little plot dreamed up by saddos who think they have bogeymen under their beds, just basic fuck-ups made by people who are clearly not up to the job.

"England player bias" — Lol!

Brian Lawlor
21   Posted 12/04/2010 at 22:18:11

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The kind of saddo who hears voices in his head and uses teenage text abbreviations like lol?
Keith Glazzard
22   Posted 12/04/2010 at 22:43:16

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Ciarán — I often admire your logical correctness, but your conclusion here has been quite rightly picked up by Mike A.

That fine old warhorse of psychology suggests itself here, the oft misused 'self-fulfilling prophecy', or, give a dog a bad name and hang him as they used to put it.

Yes — Fellaini used to get booked for being Belgian, or something.

Yes, on the other hand thugs and cheats who might also be 'national treasures' — fill in your own choice of names if you wish — get away with GBH and diving (or is it the other way round?).

There are no instructions from the FA written in invisible ink nor clandestine meetings in motorway services. No 'conspiracy', but normal life with all its inequalities and injustices. And as one of the Marx brothers put it: 'The point is to change it'.
Nick Armitage
23   Posted 12/04/2010 at 23:16:05

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England players can do whatever they want on the pitch.

The best example was Alan Shearer. Duncan Ferguson would have doubled his red card tally if he had put himself about like Shearer did, but Shearer hardly even got booked. I remember distinctly one blatant elbow to Weir's throat on the half-way line in the same game that Cahill and Babayaro got sent off for a minor tussle. If it was Ferguson he would have been off, no doubt; as usual Shearer got off with it.

Another good example is that gobshite snide on the other side of Stanley Park.
Brendan O'Doherty
24   Posted 13/04/2010 at 01:53:33

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Ever since the Shearer/Lennon stamping incident a few years back I have been totally convinced that important England players get away with blue murder when it comes to refereeing decisions. You can be sure 'Johnny Foreigner' wouldn't get away with some of them. This was confirmed by an interview not so long ago in which Graham '3 yellows' Poll confirmed that referees "have to think about the consequences" of dismissing an England captain before they do so. So while there isn't a conspiracy theory, there is definitely subconscious psychology going on as Mike Allison says above.

Yes Keith and Nick, the England player you are referring to gets away with both GBH and diving (and brandishing imaginary cards at referees- something which annoys the hell out of me).
Steven Smyth
25   Posted 13/04/2010 at 07:33:04

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So how come Gerrard gets away with it? He ain't an important England player anymore... cheating, diving, rule-changing, having a quiet word in the refs ear knobhead!!!!!
Ciarán McGlone
26   Posted 13/04/2010 at 09:51:24

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Keith,

Refs could be pre-disposed to allowing the big teams to get away with murder... or maybe we're pre-disposed to searching for imbalances as a natural checking mechanism that allows us to disregard our own efficiencies to a certain extent...

A case in point... The merseyside derby. All the talk on here was about Liverpool kicking us off the park — and being allowed to get away with it by the ref... An opinion lacking any semblance of reality — as we kicked them about the pitch as well...and got away with various bad tackles.

Conclusion: Referees seldom get everything right.
Gavin Ramejkis
27   Posted 13/04/2010 at 10:45:44

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Ciaran, the trouble with that is the guff the FA came out with when handing the Top Tier referees' quite substantial salaries, claiming that it was to reward their professionalism and full capability to undertake the role according to the letter of the law, something which we rarely see. I admit no-one is perfect and we all make mistakes but we don't claim to be the best beforehand demanding a bloody good salary for what is in effect a part-time bloody job.
Dave Wilson
28   Posted 13/04/2010 at 10:45:07

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Ah Now Ciarán you are forgetting the golden rule.
LFC are the beginning and the end of all our problems.

Brian

You leave the voices in my head out of this, perhaps if you ever get any in yours they may give you an idea all of your own Lol

BTW Bri

Think we`ll qualify for Europe without Hibbo?
Ciarán McGlone
29   Posted 13/04/2010 at 11:57:04

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Gav,

The amount of stick that refs get, I think they're entitled to a decent wage.
Brian Waring
30   Posted 13/04/2010 at 11:51:57

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Spot on, Ciaran. It's funny how some people omit the tackles by Pienaar and Fellaini in the derby, who both should have seen red.

We have to get this chip off our shoulders, because there have been numerous whinges on here when nothing goes our way, to justify the 'Bittler Blues' Tag, it's like the labour party when they first came to power, with the 'Whiter than White' crap, we seem to think we are just that.

Gerrard twats a lad, and is a scum, thug etc, Pienaar gets done for drink driving, and all we hear is "He made a mistake", "Give him a break", "Forgive". Why is one a scum, but the other just made a mistake?
Larry Boner
31   Posted 13/04/2010 at 11:55:25

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Am I right in stating that since Mark Clattenburg officiated in the infamous 2007 Derby game he has not been in control of any Everton or Liverpool games since?

I was under the impression that the elite group of referees were required to ref each team at least 8 times per season. Possibly I have misinterpreted the requirements, but it seems very strange to me that he has been kept away from Everton games and Liverpool games.

I remember Mr Moyes was going to be done by the FA after remarks he made about Clattenburg after the game and he was up for it, ready to answer the charge, then everything was dropped — strange... and we have not seen this particular ref since.

Larry Boner
32   Posted 13/04/2010 at 12:13:34

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Mr Wareing, Fellaini has not played since the Liverpool game, Pienaar was kicked from pillar to post during that game and received no protection from the officials. Carragher should have been sent off in the first few minutes for an assault on Pienaar, Gerrard later on for his attack on the player when he was lying on the floor.

Liverpool's attitude during the game was to target Everton's two best players, one got carried off, the other sent off. Mr Gerrard assaulted someone in a bar, caught on cctv and walked free, Pienaar was found guilty.

I saw Mr Gerrard tell a ref to fuck off and use a V-sign, no action; the next week physical assault on Brown, no action; week-in, week-out, throwing himself all over the place, no action — even Ferguson commented on the favouritism shown to Gerrard.

It would not surprise me in the least if Liverpool win the Europa League that they will be allowed into the CL.

Steven Smyth
33   Posted 13/04/2010 at 14:08:45

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As we speak now the Shite's Lawyers are looking for any rule to allow them to compete in the "Champions League" as the winners of the Europa League, if they win it off course. Otherwise its welcome to the Cup Competition you deemed too small for your almighty once Big Club!!!!!!
Dave Wilson
34   Posted 13/04/2010 at 14:06:31

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So if Gerrard is never punished, how come he`s been sent off more times than any of the current players in Derby matches? or are we sweeping that under the carpet because it doesnt suit the argument?
Ciarán McGlone
35   Posted 13/04/2010 at 15:03:58

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Larry,

You prove my point. Wo is me.
Colin Wainwright
36   Posted 13/04/2010 at 16:35:10

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Dave. Gerrard has been sent off more times than any other current player in Derby matches because he's been playing in them since the start of the millenium and he's a dirty fucking shithouse.

The surprise is he doesn't get sent off every derby.
Dave Wilson
37   Posted 13/04/2010 at 19:46:03

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Colin, For sure he's an 'orrible bastard, can't argue with that, but we can't then claim he ALWAYS gets away with it when he clearly doesn't, he gets away with it a lot of the time because he's an underhanded twat who cons the refs. Not because the refs are biased.
Keith Glazzard
38   Posted 13/04/2010 at 23:16:19

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Dave - he's a national treasure How can you suggest these things?

Ciarán - you stuck an undistributed middle in there, hence the false conclusion. Check, me old mate.

Now, 'undistributed middle'. Don't you think we should be using that glorious term instead of 'hoofball'?
Keith Glazzard
39   Posted 13/04/2010 at 23:34:12

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Larry - a personal little favourute of mine.

One logical explanation for the conduct of the FA following the charge against Moyes being dropped in the aftermath of the Clattenburg derby was that 'friend of the famous' possible dodgy financial dealer (why he was suspended on suspicion I read) Mr C said something to our manager in conversation after the game — and, very importantly — was witnessed by an unimpeachable independent person or two (police officers, for example?)

The day he walks into Goodison again, the police horses will be on the pitch.

Thinking of 1926 (or close), and the 'white horse' Final, perhaps we should have a club policy of making the final at all costs so he will never get to ref one.

Do us good — him bad. Isn't that called win-win?
Gavin Ramejkis
40   Posted 14/04/2010 at 08:34:28

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Ciaran, have you ever met a nurse? Ever seen the "stick" they get? I think they are on a fraction of what a referee gets for 90 mins a week in a 40+ hour week? Checkmate.
Ciarán McGlone
41   Posted 14/04/2010 at 09:51:09

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Gav,

I don't consider what-aboutery as a valid form of justification.

Fools mate.


Keith, I never claim my point solved the mystery... merely that it was a 'case in point'.

Rematch?
Mike Green
42   Posted 14/04/2010 at 10:02:35

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Let's take Gerrard's signature "dive for cover" as he himself proclaims it.

I know it's cheating. You know it's cheating. My brother, a red, with slight embarrassment knows it's cheating. The refs know it's cheating... and probably not even that deep down, Gerrard know's it's cheating.

So why does he rarely, if ever, get booked for it?

Probably because he does it so well; probably because the refs hold an element of bias towards him.

Get foreign refs in who haven't built up first name term buddy clubs to stick it right up them. That's what I say.
Michael Brien
43   Posted 14/04/2010 at 12:58:08

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The standard of Referees has gone down quite dramatically in recent years, in my opinion. I think one of the main reasons for this is the lack of respect that there appears to be between the managers and players on the one side and referees on the other.

I really enjoy watching the Six Nations matches and I see a quite different attitude towards the match officials. Even when the players disagree with a decision, there is very little if indeed any back chat. But there is also a difference in the attitude of the Referees, they use the Captains to get across any points they want to make. Indeed, if a player has been out of order, the Referee in a Rugby match will ask the Captain to have a word with his player, rather than issue a yellow card. This is in marked contrast to Football Referees who issue cards very often in the first instance of an offence and seldom if at all engage in discussion about any decisions. In Rugby the players respect the match officials and match officials respect the players. If only that was the case in football.

I would like to see the Football authorities take a close look at how Rugby — in both codes — keeps its house in order. I know that there are marked differences, in a Six Nations match there are more times when play can be stopped — penalties, conversions etc. However, I think that there are things that Football could adopt and benefit from. The use of the Captains is one — rather than have a cluster of players surround a Referee, wouldn't it be better if a more civilised approach from the team Captain was to be the norm? And sin bins rather than a flurry of yellow/red cards. Far better I think to be a man down for say 15 minutes — and the offender have a chance to cool down — than for a match to be ruined as a spectatcle because of one rash action.

Keith Glazzard
44   Posted 14/04/2010 at 14:29:53

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Michael - some good points there I think. I played rugby to representative schoolboy level and some club stuff later and there is no doubt that the 'yes sir' approach to the ref is ingrained in the game. I would have said it was a class thing, but as you rightly point out, it applies to RL too (who also put technology to work years ago to support the authority of the ref).

If a player harangues the ref, he should be booked, sent off if he carries on. Anyone touching a ref should face a very lengthy ban. In the ref's course I attended (honest!), we were told that this would result in a ban 'sine die'. Permanent.

But the sweet FA would never support such actions. Their house is definitely out of order.

ps - Thinking about bans, I have never understood why a pain-killing injection isn't classified as a performance-enhancing substance. Bet you he can run faster with it than without it.


Ciarán - an old pal of mine is a chess master and would be very quick to spot that I am way out of my depth so may we please end this metaphor (or is it analogy) pronto?

I think that when I took a course in logic (honest!) many years back, that particular logical fallacy was called an 'unconnected middle'. I hope I never have to use it, but dropping 'undistributed middle' into a response to a Ken Buckley report or similar in the future seems quite inviting.
Larry Boner
45   Posted 14/04/2010 at 16:12:16

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Anyone who thinks the standard of refereeing has dropped the last few years has never seen Clive Thomas.

Referees are fitter, faster, younger and have more knowledge of the rules of the game than when I first started watching football all those years ago. What has changed is the numerous cameras around the pitch providing previously unseen angles for every referees or assistants decision or non-decision.

I have every sympathy for the honest refs who make an honest error and are then treated as criminals. The Andy Grays of this world would do better to focus on the out-and-out cheating perpetrated by the like of Gerrard, Torres, Drogba, etc than the refs who are being conned by them.

The number of times you see a ref pilloried for making a right decision (because the commentators don't understand the rules) is amazing. Bring in video replays to assist refs — not to attack them. Shit happens!

Dennis Stevens
46   Posted 14/04/2010 at 19:05:57

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Obviously, officials will make mistakes, it's part of the game - however, I think the times that really rile are the blatant offences that everybody & his blind dog can see, but which the officials all manage to miss [I'm sure you all have a list of examples]. It's those blatant instances that give rise to conspiracy theories, as people naturally start looking for an explanation.
Brian Lawlor
47   Posted 15/04/2010 at 08:25:21

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Dave Hibbert... I mean Wilson:

No we won't qualify for Europe now. The shambles at the start of the season put pay to that. Now we have most of our best players back, we've only lost twice in the last 20 games.

Now, to test your sanity, here's a couple of questions for you seeing how you're so obsessed with Hibbert. See if you can answer them directly without doing any of your famous rambling or talking about the past:-

1) Would we have qualified for Europe this season if Hibbert was in the side?
2) Would we have a better record than only 2 defeats in our last 20 if Hibbert was in the side?
Brian Lawlor
48   Posted 15/04/2010 at 08:39:30

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Brian Waring - "Gerrard twats a lad, and is a scum, thug etc, Pienaar gets done for drink driving, and all we hear is "He made a mistake", "Give him a break", "Forgive". Why is one a scum, but the other just made a mistake?"

They're hardly the same thing. Also, Pienaar wil rightly be punished for his actions. Was Gerrard?
Dave Wilson
49   Posted 15/04/2010 at 13:41:04

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Dont do conjecture, I deal only in facts - as you well know -
Fact is when Hibbo`s there we always qualify, when he isnt . . .we dont

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