Mike, don't bet your life on 'the rich getting richer' shout at this present moment in time. All this talk about the shite getting sold fails to point out how on top of what they will cost you can also add an extra £350M for the stadium and £100M for player funding. I think the decline in football finance has only just started and that includes those you mentioned too.

Nah, this is just paper shuffling by the already rich clubs. Man Utd have a real quandry, being the International brand they are, and they have to keep that up. We're a much smaller fish in that sense but I still don't see us falling any further behind as a result.

No surprise though that we still need some investment but don't hold yer breath!

I believe that we are worse off debt to turnover wise than United. Even Villa have an investor and have been able to spend freely on players compared to us. We are alone in the top echelon in that we have financed buys from selling despite high debt levels and we have a good side too. For me it's hats off to Everton and naive in the extreme to think that we can somehow buck the system and get higher than 5th place.

You only normally get investment if the investor believes he will get a return & yes that might mean someone very rich wanting an ego trip, but that is very few & far between.

The investment needed in EFC & the dark side is pretty much similar, the only difference being that their ground will cost more but will give a bigger return. On the playing side, some might believe we have a better 1st 11/15 but we both need about 4 quality players to compete at the top of the league & in Europe. The truth being anyone pumping £250m into us or £450m in to them is likely to see more chance of a return on the investment with them than us.

I don’t know what the answer is, because I can’t see us being able to compete financially with clubs that have a much larger turnover than us. We can only hope that we can hang on to our best players & carry picking up young & up & coming players that will let us compete on the field at least.

Ed — £450M, then double — that is what someone will need to move them lot on.

There are of course many posts on this kind of discussion, but one response given before does ring true and that, once you're at the top and want to improve, you have to spend more and more money to only get diminishing returns.

If you look at the names in the bottom 16, non of them are 'Premier League stock'. If you saw them relegated you could argue they'd all be playing at their right level, Blackburn and West Ham included.

These top clubs you fear escaping will have dropped points to many of the bottom 16, including the top 3.

We should worry about our pot, no-one else's.

I agree money buys stuff. I don't have the percentages, but my guess is, over the past 10 years, 95% of all domestic trophies have been won by a couple of teams — the couple of teams who have been able to spend (by a mile) the most money.

I fucking detest us 'competing', not for the league we play in, but for fourth or fifth ("We came 5th? Champagne!"). Actually, playing in a league we can't win begs a question: WHY do we? Why for that matter do Fulham... or Wolves?

Wonder if it's occurred to any clubs over the past 5 years or so to threaten, "Why don't we form a break-away — one with a bit of competition?"... (ie: a fair league). Let's face it, if the 'big' 2/3/4/5 wanted to join a Euro-super-sooper league, we'd all get fucked-off sharpish. I'm surprised (and yet not!) that this one and only 'bargaining' tool has never been threatened.

Imagine it, "SKY NEWS HEADLINE: 16 PL SIDES TO FORM BREAK-AWAY UNLESS PL AGREE TO ALL TEAMS SPEND SAME DEAL" (or...something).

Ok that's mad BUT... so is what we have now. A million times we've heard sportsmen (when asked 'how do you think you'll do?') say "Well if I didn't think I could win, there'd be no point turning up". The PL have changed all that.

Now (because of how badly the PL is run), most players talk in terms of 'putting a good run together' and 'kicking on' — really non-specific stuff — careful NOT to talk about winning the league or going for the title.

One thing I would say though is, I wouldn't say Liverpool getting any proper money is a cert. According to the Telegraph, the REAL cost to buy Liverpool could be as much as a £1 billion. Hicks and Gillette value them at £600m (although it's thought they may take £500m) plus £350m for a new ground.

Almost no chance of Champions League next year (so there goes AT LEAST £30m in cash!), plus they've a manager with four years and more left on his deal and a huge squad containing many overpaid, very average players. If what Evertonians have known about them for years (ie: that they're VASTLY over-rated and NOT 'the' Liverpool) starts to be noticed by the rest of the world, they'll soon be lucky to get half that money.

Being an American, I can say with certainty money is important and has its place in building a sports franchise. But it is NOT the be-all, end-all, cure-all. There are so many sports teams in America, owned by the rich, that are so poorly run and such failures competitively that it makes you wonder how the owner made his money in the first place.

Beyond that, I feel distinctions should be made when discussing Sky 4 types. Man Utd was built over decades to the cash cow it is today through SAF's brilliance, not the Glazers. Yes, Russian money propelled Chelsea from just another team to title contention. But let's not forget Mourinho's part in all that. Still holding up, but where are the replacement pieces for their aging front-line players? Does ownership think simply more money will keep things going? Sports history doesn't support that way of thinking.

Which brings us to Man City. Will they ever jell? All that money spent. And, of course Liverpool's disastrous ownership. It's their ancient name that keeps them afloat, certainly not the nitwits who bought the team recently. And, by the way, where's their young talent to replace an aging line-up?

Yes, money counts, but alone it doesn't do anything to get a team a title. Look how far Mr Moyes has brought us on a comparative shoestring budget. He's obviously a shrewd judge of talent in need of some new revenue stream. I still say that revenue is in America.

Not one team in the Europe has tried to make America its own. EFC's profile went way up with LD's signing and, especially, the fantastic welcome and support by Toffee fans. Why isn't EFC's front office trying to expand interest over here, definitely merchandising for God's sake? We discuss in here selling this one or that or a couple or three to generate maybe $10 million for signings. How about marketing in the States to generate that sum? It's really not that much.

James you say..

"But let's not forget Mourainho's part in all that".

Personally, I don't, I think he's a great manager BUT I simply include him along with all the expensive players the Russian was able to purchase, to buy Chelsea the league.

Remember, he first gave Ranieri unlimited funds, that didn't work.

Abromovich got rid of him, then simply spent whatever it took to BUY the coach who had just won the Champions League.

Or put it another way, I have NO doubt that If Chelsea had been paying what we can afford as managers wages AND been offered our transfer 'budget', there is absolutely no way the 'special one' would have gone to Chelsea.

You ask "but where are the replacement pieces for their ageing front-line players?".

Well at the moment, I'm not sure, but as Chelsea are in the cup final (again) and top of the league they're probably not too concerned.

Make no mistake though, if Chelsea 'need' a few players, spending 100m to get them will not be a problem.

As we (in theory) are competing with them, the fact that they can and we can't spend that way, does make the entire thing a bit......um.....daft really.

And us (me as much as anyone) daft for swallowing it season after season.

Let's face it, if you went to watch a baseball game and one team had slightly bigger/broader bats than the other, there'd be outrage.

Yet year after year, in effect we say "So you spent £500m on your team compared to our £40m? Yeah that's fine".

Fact: We're all fucking crackers.

We need investment; the Pope's a catholic.

I don't go with this Chelsea just another team before Abramovic. They were consistenty challenging and qualifying for CL when it was only three places, won the CWC, and had plenty of domestic trophies.

All that when, for transfers, they were essentially skint. I may be wrong, but I don't think they bought anyone the Summer before the Russian came in.

Plus, I liked them then. Zola, Wear, Poyet, Lebouef, Desailli, Dechamps, Laudrup, Gullit, Vialli, Dimatteo, Flo... of course I'm not too keen on them now, but so long as they keep the RS from winning anything, I don't mind.

Eugene - OK. My main point isn't particularly this person or that but more money's place in sports success. Of course it counts and is important. But, as any American sports fans can tell you, owners spend ridiculous sums on talent in many sports and just as ridiculously fail. And I mean fail spectacularly. Year after year. This is actually a routine part of the American professional sports scene.

With that, yes, EFC is at a disadvantage right now due to funding. It's true. So let's close the disadvantage some by promoting the team more heavily in America. Believe it or not, the only teams that try to do that are Mexican league teams. No top European side really promotes its franchise in America.

I don't see why EFC management doesn't jump into this wide-open space, especially given the rise in the team's profile by signing LD and treating him so well. There's plenty of money to be made. Leastways for ther next 4-5 years or so. Will this generate Russian billionaire money? Hardly. But it could generate enough revenue to allow Mr Moyes and keep players and boost wages.

Nick, If I'm not mistaken, a certain financial director at Chelsea marched down to the Chelsea dressing room and gave a reportedly Henry V style speech before the final league game of the season ahead of a 2-1 win vs Liverpool that saved the Club's financial skin. They were about to do a Leeds after living way beyond their means paying the players you've just listed.

Months later, Abramovich was flown over the Thames in his personal helicopter after shaking on a deal to buy Spurs. He liked the look of the Spiv palace by the Thames, flew down, Spurs lost out and the rest is history.

Chelsea are a lucky club.

The thing that interests me is Karen Brady's trip to Saudi looking for investors for West Ham. People to join Gold and Sullivan, not buy them out. Isn't this what BK wants for Everton? Why haven't we heard of any trips to the Middle East on behalf of Everton?

If West Ham do get this sort of investment. what will it say about BK's 24/7 search?

Nick, Chelsea had very much 'done a Leeds' and they were about to go massively tits up. They'd paid big transfer fees and astronomical wages way beyond their means and it was very much on its way home to roost. Abramovic bailed them out of a day of reckoning.

I've not read all of the comments on Mike's article, but it goes without saying that we are crying out for investment in our great club. Blue Bill was never going to accept ANY OFFER for the club whilst Destination Kirkby was unfolding.

At the end of the day, he has to in some way recoup what he has laid out, and, no matter what we think, he was never going to accept an offer until the decision was made on the new stadium. Now that the decision has gone against him, he is at a crossroad when it comes to our future fortunes.

What he has to ask himself is: What is the best for EVERTON FC? ... Is Blue Bill prepared to take a backwards step and let somebody else take the reigns at HIS CLUB? The most important decisions for Bill are about to be made but will he let go of his play toy?

I hope that a new benefator can be found, but i just hope it's not to the detriment of the club and we end up suffering because Bill has been forced to sell to another sheikh just for the lure of millions promised to the club, to then come back and bite us in the arse when Sheikh Millions is bored of his new toy.

With all the promise of new millions for a few of the Sky 4 to be shortly pumped back into their respective clubs, I hope when we do find the RIGHT investor, Moyes and Co can utilise the money to get us back to where we belong. I just hope, when Bill does sell out, we can move up to the next phase of our development and go from a team that has the nucleus for a great season into a team that can consistently arrive into the Sky 4 and break the monopoly that has for many seasons become the norm in the Premier League.

The club has been crying out for investment ever since Peter Johnson pissed off and Bill rode in to 'rescue' us. It's old, old news. The investment never materialised when we finished 4th & got into the Champions League qualifiers. It never materialised after consecutive 5th place finishes. It never materialised when we got to the FA Cup final. It's certainly not going to materialise this summer or any time soon, despite Bill's legendary 24/7 search.

It annoys me when Robert Elstone (or whichever joke of a Chief Executive happens to be in charge at the time) bangs on about the club looking at all possible avenues of increasing it's revenue streams etc. It's just spin. They haven't a clue how they're going to take the club forward, and, as such, they're prepared to take a punt on anything.

The signing of Li Tie and Li Wiefeng would see them cracking the lucrative far east market! Pre-season tours of the States would see Everton becoming a household name in America! An out-of-town, second rate stadium crossbred with a supermarket would generate an extra £10m a season for Moyesie to splash on players! ... Utter bollocks.

The only way Everton can fund transfers these days is through selling their high-profile players (Rooney; Lescott... Rodwell?) or borrowing against their incoming Sky payments. Sod it, let's have a look who we can get in on loan!

John, What would you do?

IMO it's not ALL about investment.

When "Black Bill" took over, we had a £5 million overdraft, owned our training groung and Goodison Park. Now, our debts are reputed to be over £80 million, family silver all sold off and everything mortgaged — even future season ticket sales.

We have made an operational loss every year except when Rooney was sold and I'm guessing when Lescott was sold.

Our income is diabolical for a top 6 club and that is what needs addressing first — not some Billionaire with more money than sense or some leveraged buyout specialists like Hicks & Gillette and the Glaziers.

Whether we like it or not, Sky and TV rights are going to be the future — especially internet streaming — but that income needs to go into the clubs, not into greedy players' and agents' pockets and that needs addressing by statutory bodies, like Uefa or the FA. By all means let players be advised but put a cap on agents' fees and players' wages and/or put some control on clubs' wage bills.

The idea was floated originally that all of the galactico teams would form a European league leaving the Evertons to compete in a Premier League without them and that would be a good idea. This is a bit of a circular argument though and the key question is raised above, what would YOU do?

We can't compete for trophies and for me trophies are totally irrelevant apart from bringing in revenue to buy players. Are Chelsea and United better than us for their millions? Marginally and with the deeper squads needed to win trophies, that's all.

We have done incredibly well despite being a small club with Victorian facilities. Hats off to Arsenal too for changing ground and keeping up with attractive football by value buying.

Playing and beating the top clubs is our Everest, and I'm happy with that. I would forgo everything for two wins against Liverpool next year.

Please don't confuse the word 'investment' with the word 'gift' (a better description would be 'paid-for ego-trip').

An investment would imply the possibility of making a profit. No businessman with half a brain would invest in a EPL club — how many make a profit? So unless there is a wealthy Arab / Russian oil billionaire who wants to see themselves on the tv (or even pursue citizenship), then forget it — you are in cloud cuckoo land.

I am actually very proud that we have accomplished so much with such a limited budget. If you want to change things then cancel your Sky subscription and start the dominoes falling. Only then will sanity return to the game...

Jay, you slag of Bill (again!) and then give the reasons why we are in debt! Maybe you should read your own comments and digest some humble pie because if we hadn’t done this we would be in the Championship with no Arteta, Moyes or any other rising star in Blue. Bill has no money to invest, he has made that clear from Day One: no lies, no spin... so why are you critical when we have no funds?

EFC as a business is second-rate with poor revenue streams, hence us having to borrow to survive; sadly, we have hit our limit so we must rely on youth and other income streams — like selling players.

NO other party has ever made a bid for us, that tells you just how attractive we are. Like it or not, ticket prices are too low at EFC and we have far too many junior season tickets, my best mate sits next to me and is 43 — on his season ticket he is 14!! Yet he will always moan about the transfer budget!!!

I don’t like the fact we have been left behind, much like you... but, unless a new investor comes along, it's better to a realist than a dreamer, like some fans. COYB

We've got several players whose values are soon going to drop considerably, because of their age. I personally can't see how we're going to replace Saha, Cahill, Yobo, Pip, etc without selling a Rodwell, Fellaini or a Coleman.

I have to say that our long-term outlook is not rosy without at least some investment each year. Even £15-20M a year would make a fair difference; that would get us a Yak or a Fellaini each season.

Unfortunately, there's no return on any such investment at Everton. Until the debts are cleared, we will never be profitable, we will only service our debts. It's Catch-22... unless someone comes along with £50M to buy out the shareholders, £60M to wipe out the debts and £150M for a new ground — stick a few quid on that for new players — and we're looking at £300M for Everton to start making a decent profit. You've gotta make a lot of profit to turn a £300M investment into a worthwhile business venture.

On a potentially brighter note, when the blue Mancs were bought out and became Chelsea Mk II, my initial reaction was that our hopes of making the top-4 were forever dead and buried. But funnily enough, it could turn out to be a good thing.

There are now two teams virtually guaranteed to be there or thereabouts for the CL year after year, Man City and Chelsea. Man Utd and Arsenal are also very likely to be up there too but don't have the unlimited funds that the other two have. Liverpool have now 'done an Everton' and gone from the best to also-rans.

These 5 clubs are all reliant, for different reasons, on CL football. But there's only 4 spots up for grabs. That's really going to shake things up. We could well see a big, big club go-Leeds before too long.

Personally, the idea of a Euro Super League doesn't sit well with me. I'd feel like we'd been relegated and were playing to win the Conference. On the other hand, we'd have a chance of winning it and if that then meant a place in the Euro Super whatever, then maybe I'd go for it... but then again, we'd get spanked week-in, week-out — like a Championship side just promoted to the Premier League.

Alan Williams, read your own posting again and think back to the Capital of Culture; it wasn't awarded overnight — it was known about well in advance. The club's strategic business decision was to close its city centre presence... great acumen there — and ultimately down to Black Bill.

The Capital of Culture virtually finished and Everton's financial wizardry finally decides to open a city centre store — great store, by the way... but months and months too late to capitalise on the tourist increases.

Corporate offerings at Goodison have always been poor, the masterpiece solution being a tent in a car park — you couldn't make it up if you tried.

I suggest, Alan, you accept the point Jay was trying to make is that the ultimate short- and long-term strategic business plans for Everton lie with the bloke at the head of the table — and to say they are poor would be kind.

Gavin, Jay, SPOT ON!

The whole "We need a billionaire" quote is just hot air. Trying to justify why he's failed to find any such investment.

We don't need any billionaires. We need someone richer than BK, with business acumen. Surely that isn't too much to ask.

West Ham had several bidders competing with Gold and Sullivan. They were £100M in debt with a shite team and a need for a new ground.

But Bill claims no-one wants us. We really must be in shit.

James, As you've been an Everton fan for just a few short months, one of the things you can be forgiven for not knowing (and I'm making a presumption here) is Everton's record in terms of pre-season jaunts these last four summers. It may surprise you to know which country has featured prominently on that list... now for the last four years running.

On the basis of this record, it would not be hard to claim that Everton have done exactly what you ask, and staked their claim on the USA. But what surprises me is (a) the opposition they have managed to play in the course of seven* exhibition games; (b) the venues; (c) the number of people attending, and (d) the load factor that represented for each stadium.

Sadly, only one of those games sold out... to all of 20,000 rabid American soccer fans — and it did so not because Everton were playing, but because it was the MLS All-Star game.

I'll save you some research: the attendances have been nothing short of utterly pathetic. 10k to 15k... that's all! In stadiums that are mostly up around Old Trafford in terms of capacity. Not much of a marketing bonanza set to make millions for the club, I'm afraid.

Partly I think it is down to the odd choice of venues. But mainly it is down to the sad fact that Everton's profile in the USA remains low, despite all the positives. Remember, the US goalie has been a stalwart on the Everton roster for the same length of time — since 2006. Yet American soccer fans I've met over that timeframe mostly did not have a clue who Everton were.

Even after the Donovan boost, Everton's profile has hardly bumped up a notch. The reason, I believe, is the total dominance of the Sky 4. Those fans I've met who had an interest in the EPL, followed without exception, one or other of the Sky 4 teams, and had virtually no knowledge or comprehension of who Everton were.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, but it might be illustrative if you told us how your personal awareness of Everton may have developed over that period, and at what point you really became interested in the club.


Oh, and how much you have spent buying Everton merchandise.

---

* Strictly, one of the games was in Canada, but it followed the exact same pattern.

Well done John Waugh for injecting some reality into this well worn thread. When I hear "we need investment" I'm not sure whether to laugh very loud or scream. What these people are asking for is handouts, charity in another word.

if EFC can't generate enough income from its attendances, merchandising, sponsorship and TV rights then it's tough titty. And it will be very tough titty very shortly when the (long overdue) UEFA changes come into play.

Actually some (me included) think these intelligent, far-sighted and fair-minded rules will play to our current strengths. The notion of a billioniare benefactor will be history - and so it fucking should be.

What happened at Chelsea and Man City are aberrations, distortions. They do not represent how a sport should operate. Two wrongs do not make a right. ManU is a different proposition. They are a rich club through sheer size of following. It started in 1958 and has ballooned ever since. They get home gates of 75,000 and have millions of fans globally. They have never had a billionaire benefactor. Their current owners actually take money out of the club.

Arsenal, on the the other hand, are a fantastic club, on and off the pitch. Again, NO billionaire benefactor. They were fortunate enough to make the inspired decision to appoint Arsene Wenger as manager. He transformed the club and built up a latent following that could not be satisfied within Highbury's small capacity. Arsenal operates as a self-funding business. They do not pay inflated salaries and they off-load players to make (rather than lose) money for the club. Arsenal is a good model to follow.

Everton has to stand on its own two feet. We are not a charity, we are a business. Sure, mistakes have been made in the past, and they probably will in the future. But the model for clubs like Everton is to identify talent at an early stage, both players and manager/coach and to maximise our return from those human assets.

We are doing it with Moyes. We did it with Rooney and may do the same with Rodwell, and possibly Fellaini. There are to many Evertonians who need a big reality check about their expectations. Here's a start:

- We do not have the international pedigree of the Sky4, nor a great many European clubs.
- We do not have the fan base or revenue of the Sky4.
- We have not won the league for 23 years.
- We have been in the top 4 once in 23 years.
- We have won just 1 European trophy in our history (and that was the 3rd of 3 in prestige terms).
- Until Moyes arrived we flirted with relegation almost every year for over a decade.
- We have average gates of c.35,000.
- Our turnover is about half of Spurs & Liverpool, and way behind ManU, Chelsea & Arsenal.

Now, taking this reality into account,I think we have good reason to be, at the very least, not pissed off with our end of season achievements in recent years. The nonsense that we are "satisfied with 4th" is a ridiculous assertion. Spurs & Villa have spent a lot of money and the best they can hope for is 4th (and neither will probably get it).

Arsenal, on the other hand, have spent less than both. Arsenal's record fee paid is still less than ours. They find & groom young players and build a team. They also sell on players in their prime, or if they don't fit, or if they want too much money. So there is proof that you can win, or get very close, by spending less money. You just need fantastic coaches.

I think our future should be focused on coaching excellence and developing young & hungry players. We do not need a billionaire, or investment (i.e. charity). We have no right to expect charity, nor to be at the pinnacle of achievement. But we are not far away and to ignore that is to bury one's head deep into one's arse.

We all want ultimate glory, but the glass does not always need to be half-empty. One glance at EFC's recent history (above) makes one wonder why so many fans see things so.

Alan Kirwan,

No-one is asking for a billionaire (apart from you and Bill).

Why do clubs like West Ham have several bidders competing (with eventual owners Gold and Sullivan) for their club. When they are in a worse predicament than us?

They were £100M in debt with a shite team and a need for a new ground.

Alan, why do you keep mentioning our average gate as a reason not to raise expectations? Liverpool's average is not much higher, nor Tottenham's. Nor was Arsenal's before they moved. Whilst we're on Arsenal, they don't spend much on transfer fees but they do spend a lot on wages, which is a very big factor.

Also, Alan, are you suggesting Everton isn't a big club and that we should re-assess our expectations to that of a Sunderland/Bolton type club?

After all, if you feel we shouldn't compete with ManU, RS, Chelsea, City, Spurs or Villa, it doesn't really bode well for the future.

"Nil Satis Nisi 9th".

How did Arsenal pay for their stadium? Fairy dust?

And they also consistently pay big money for players — usually young players who don't see the first team straight away... and they've certainly topped our record transfer fee. So your suggestion that we follow the Arsenal model falls on the very criticism that you make of other suggestions — i.e. the lack of finance to implement the strategy.

You may have a semblance of a point that on a moral level — the finance of football is out of control — but it bears no resemblance to reality. Rich people will always own football clubs... end of story.

Also your suggestion that Chelsea and Man City are any different from Man United, premised on United always being that size... they weren't - they used money to grow and attract money — as the article quite rightly states.

Paul Gladwell - I'm with you, the last estimate was that anyone wanting to buy LFC would have to find £1bn if they wanted to also build a stadium, replace Benitez and rebuild the team.

Apparently the price tag for Arsenal is in the region of £800m with a great stadium already in place, one of Europe's best managers, and one of the best scouting / youth / training set-ups around.

I know where I'd be putting my money first and then I'd probably buy us with the loose change. ; )

The reason why others may want West Ham is due to the potential of the Olympic stadium being passed over to them, much like City got.

Gavin, CoC was as and is irrelevant, EFC didn’t have the money to invest at the time as they were still with the old Sky deal. Don’t forget, we already had a shop opposite central station and, due to it losing so much money, we closed it; seems an obvious reason not to have a new one.

Currently the L1 shop is also running at a loss but they hope new kit will see it through. If EFC had money or some form of backer, we would be sitting in the Kings Dock. Our plight hasn’t changed at all — we still don’t have a pot to piss in and as a business we are just not attractive unless you’re a Blue with a spare £300 million plus, there-in lies the problem. COYB

Roberto, Mike... wasn't making comment on their financial reasons for success, just that people tend to think they became successful only after the Russian. Not so.

The average gate comparisons with Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal are ludicrous — waiting lists for season tickets at Spurs, currently 27,000; Liverpool 40,000; Arsenal 25,000 at Highbury... now 60,000 at the Emirates.

Evertonhave a waiting list of ZERO.

If Liverpool and Spurs build 60,000 capacity stadiums, they will fill them; if Liverpool build an 80,000 seater they will fill that!

West Ham are attractive to investors because their ground move will be similar to Man City; in this case, the 2012 Olympic stadium.

The Euro Super League must be just around the corner, the vultures see the advent of this as a massive cash generator, with City now being the 5th of the Sky 4 there are fewer and fewer ways that these "super clubs" can be accomodated within the current 'top 4 into CL' scenario.

If you name the top 20 sides who would be invited to the new Euro League, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Barca, Real, Inter etc, with Russian, French, top sides. I doubt very much if Everton would register in the top 100 of an invitation list, purely because the club has been dormant for the last 25 years.

These top clubs will negotiate their own TV rights, games shown worldwide on the web, this is the income that investors are looking for.

European golf, Racing to Dubai... this is where the future of football lies, World Club football replacing internationals etc.

Bloody hell, where do Tottenham get all their fans from?!?

Garry Cook and Phil Gartside have been heard talking about a league without promotion and relegation as well...

I'm so glad that reality is creeping into this debate and the realisation that we are a small club, why we are a small club and why we have a motto that shouldn't be used as an expectation.

We should be proud to be Evertonians and how we punch miles above our financial power. We should be generally proud of our players and manager and we should perhaps even give some credit to Mr Kenwright. Two thirds of the Premier League and every club in every other league would give anything to be where we are, many fans of clubs far worse than us give praise and support to their team that Everton deserve but rarely get.

This isn't 1970, it isn't 1986, it is 2010 Premier League football, where resources rule and Everton are terminally weak without a Fairy Godfather/Mother.

Agree with Alan in post 27 — Arsenal a good model to follow. They had a fantastic coach who brought in the likes of Viera and Anelka for buttons and then spent [our size of budget] on payers like Overmars, Petit and Henry and sold them for a huge profit.

Being in London obviously helps but I think when Wenger took over they were around 5th in the league — just like us. They were also getting similar attendances to us under Rioch and Graham. Perhaps you can say that was because of the size of the ground... but I disagree; they would never have got 60,000 people regularly previously. They did it on the back of great football.

However, I do think it's not simply as easy as following them for number of reasons:

1. London — massive factor in investment, corporate fans with money to spare and to attract footballers to live;
2. Manager is a revolutionary and extraordinary visionary — not just on the football field;
3. A decent Board of Directors.

However, a good start to follow and I honestly believe if we had a different Board, it could take us further and investment could follow. The Board in my view is our biggest hindrance, greater than investment or the manager (indeed I actually think we have a very good squad and team now).

Alan, how can you say CoC is irrelevent? The old city centre store was a poor showing and more like a thrift store but still there. The influx of tourist cash would surely have registered on a marketing department's radar and flashed, "Hello! Why don't we exploit that cash?" — even if only for a short-term one-year lease for the duration of CoC with a view to extend beyond... afterwards dependent on profitability.

The L1 store missed the boat, it wasn't an unseen opportunity — do you think that many businesses didn't use the opportunity to profit from it?

Peter, you could add a 4th to that: they pay huge wages.

Alan Kirwan.

The European Cup-Winners Cup was NOT the 3rd European trophy, it was the 2nd biggest.

Some of the posts on this thread make me almost embarrassed to be a Blue, the same beauts putting the club down time and time again.

There's zero ambition at this club.

Oh dear.

Phil Martin — Billionaire, bla, bla, bla. What the fuck are you on about? Read the posts at least. How do you confuse DO NOT NEED with ASKING FOR?

Ciaran- "Arsenal consistently pay big money for players." Who & how much? "And they've certainly toped our record transfer fee". Ours is £15m for Fellaini, Arsenal's is £12m for Arshavin. These are facts, as someone else once said. Can we stick to them please.

Ste Traverse - The ECWC was the 3rd European trophy behind the EC and the UEFA cup. On what possible basis do you suggest it was the 2nd biggest? Is it simply because we won it? The EC was for champions and the UEFA was for teams who were 2, 3 or 4 in their league and by definition BIGGER. Don't be ridiculous.

And don't confuse ambition with expectation, as many on here do. By all normal criteria we have no basis whatsoever for expecting to win the league. But that does not and should not prevent us from maintaining ambition and doing everything we possibly can to try. Some expect, others hope.

Alan Kirwin.

If, as you claim,the UEFA Cup was bigger than the ECWC how come the FA Cup winners were allocated the ECWC slot yet the League Cup winners were given a UEFA Cup place. Are you bizzarely suggesting the League Cup is bigger than the FA Cup??

No, don't YOU be ridiculous.

Also I currently have the programme from the 1985 ECWC Final to hand and do you what it says on the front?

Europa Cup 2.

Alan Kirwin,

All I hear from your posts:

• Everton can't attract any investment. because we're fundamentally fucked.
• Everton are a mediocre club.
• Evertonians should know their place and accept midtable mediocrity as our place.
• Let's bury our head in the sand and hope everyone else around implodes.

Some great pieces of direction there Alan. FFS, get a grip and grow a pair of balls.

CWC was 2nd in the prestige steaks. Hence the EC winners playing the CWC winners in the Super Cup up until 1999.

We were to play Juventus, but things happened...

Not sure why people think the Uefa Cup was 2nd, especially when you didn't need to win anything to be in it.

Phil, its you who is burying your head in the sand if you don't acknowledge the fundamental issues surrounding the club.

If you want to believe that the club has not received investment as the owner won't sell, then that's your choice.

Gavin is still banging on about the CoC being a 'lost opportunity'. After all, the CoC has done wonders for our neighbours hasn't it? They are absolutely rolling in it, eh, Gav? What a load of shite.

Dan,

This has nothing to do with "Will BK sell or not?" type arguments.

I fully appreciate the "fundamental issues". It's those who accept the pathetic standard to which our club has been administered / marketed / sold / ran down to who are burying their head in the sand.

Tell me:

• who employed Keith Wyness?
• Who oversaw the Kings Dock Fiasco?
• Who sat on the board alongside Agent Johnson?
• Who allowed all our city centre club shops to be closed?
• Who lied to us about DK?
• Who agreed to sell our state-of-the-art training complex as soon as it was built?
• Who's idea was the many fake transfer stories (released around season ticket time — Joe Cole, Alan Smith etc)?
• Who thinks only Newcastle fans buy shirts?
• Who thinks we can only be saved by a billionaire?

Jeez guys, I really wish my head was buried in the sand!

Alan,

They're not facts. They're disputed conjecture. Here's some similar conjecture: The cost of Antonio Reyes with add-ons was close to £18M.

And If you don't know about the vast amount of money that Arsenal pump into their youth system — including buying and paying players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner, Ramsey, Wilshere, Vela, Fabregas, Song, and Sagna — then I really can't help you.

We spend about £200k every four years on buying some dud for the youth set-up... Compared to Arsenal, our youth finances are non-existent. You need money for that kind of approach... It's not quite as simple as, "Yeah, let's do it the Arsenal way" — problem solved!

Phil, your questions are ridiculous and childish. You have no substance behind them, as you know nothing about the issues. Get your head back in the sand.

Its you who has his head in the sand Dan as Phil's question's are all sailient.

Dan please answer at least one of them questions. Your response is pathetic and devoid of any purpose. You're barely even worthy of response.

At least tell me who was responsible for Wyness? Or who oversaw Kings Dock?

Ste, they are only relative questions to someone that knows nothing about running a football club, and to someone who has an axe to grind.

Fake transfer stories? Fucking ridiculous and unfounded.

Dan, you really are ridiculous?

Did we not sell our new training ground immediately after building it?
Did we not hire a CEO with a very dubious background?
Did we not close our city centre club shops?

Are you denying BK was on the board with Peter Johnson and during the King's Dock days?

Are you telling me we honestly offerd £7M for Alan Smith when we were nearly bankrupt? Because the Leeds United CEO denied any offers were recieved before he eventually signed for ManU.
Tell me how we could afforded Joe Cole?

Remember these were public stories on the OS. Not third party tabloid filth. These were actual Official EFC published articles.

None us know how to run a football club, as none of us actually do. But some of us can use logic and common sense to ask intelligent questions.

You're worse than a RS fan. At least they have the motivation to not accept mediocrity and demand change at their club. I can't believe some people here are telling others to accept "our lot" and justify 1 major trophy in 23 years.

May I just add to what Phil has said DK cost us 5 million and 3 years of divisive distraction.

The board should have laid a long term plan out for the club when Kenwright took over.

Instead we've just staggered from pillar to post,putting out the begging bowl to pals and aquaintances, mortgaging stuff and selling star players when our focus should have been on exploiting commercial opportunities tied in to a long term business plan.

My dislike of the man is well known but nobody can deny he is incomptetent at best and dangerous at worst.

We have been the most successful club outside of the top 4 in the last 8 years on the pitch but wouldnt even make the top 10 for financial performance off the pitch.

I have followed EFC for over 50 years and for a club with our pedigree this is just not good enough.

I am sorry Alan Kirwan but I just cannot accept mediocrity and lies especially when they emanate from the people who are supposed to be supporting Moyes and the players.

Moyes gives us opportunity year after year to build on what he has achieved and all we all get is the 24/7 bullshit and a totally mismanaged close season.

Bill just does his match attendance and media darling routine instead of getting out of his London location and sitting down and planning all our options for the future with some talented and visionary people and God knows there are enough Evertonians that would contribute ideas for free.

But there again I forgot Bill doesn't like to listen.

We could take a leaf out of the Tories' book, and get the tooth fairy to rustle up millions in efficiency savings. Pluck a number out of the air, spend it and wait till tomorrow to pay it back.

Sounds alright, no?

So right, Alan Kirwin, so right.

The future for us is to maximise the quality of our management, training and players. All must be developed and improved.

When you look at the current set up you already see this:

Moyes: Was a Championship Manager - Now a Highly respected Premier League Manager

Arteta: Was a £2m journeyman looking for direction - Now a superb player worth £15m plus

Cahill: Was an unproven £1.5m Championship player nobody would take a risk on - Now a world famous player who has served us well and despite nearing 30 would still fetch £7m

Coleman: Was an unknown from Sligo Rovers bought for peanuts - Now The Darling of the Toffeeweb pages causing grown men to cum in their pants at the thought of him rampaging down the touchline!

You could say the same about Yobo, , Howard, Baines, Jagielka, Fellaini, Pienaar , Heitinga - all have significantly improved and raised their value whilst at EFC . Others such as Lescott, Johnson, McFadden, Bent, Kilbane, have been sold at big profits whilst the Youth system has produced Rooney, Osman, Rodwell, Vaughan, Anichebe etc and put other so called superior clubs to shame.

The only thing that has not gone in a similar way is our Boardroom, although we have at least been spared any more public disputes since the Summer of 2004 when Gregg left. It's off the pitch things need sorting out.

On the pitch, the trend is up. Unfortunately, the summit we are climbing for keeps rising a bit more each year too, but we are catching it, albeit gradually. Patience my friends. Eventually Moyes will overcome lack of funds, a financially impotent Board and all that entails. The pieces of the jigsaw are coming together.

Dan, does Kenwright's quote of "I've seen the list of the players we're going after and I thought wow" when he was never off TV in the build up to the Cup final, or Elstone's soundbite at the end of last season (co-incidently at the same time season tickets we're up for renewal) of "we're getting our buisness done early this year (we didn't) not count as fake transfer storys?

I have written a blog asking why nobody has bought Everton, which includes a review of the latest accounts. It's a bit of an epic and includes some "accounting speak", but you may be interested anyway.

You can find the article at:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/378517-why-has-nobody-bought-everton

Any questions, just ask.

Swiss Rambler
just read your blog and it is a very well written artice summing up our predicament.

However as one who has enquired into buying the club I think you're being a bit kind to Kenwright and his cronies in not pushing the point further except to say Kenwright never hears from interested parties again after an enthusiastic initial approach.

I wonder why?????????????

Stop making excuses..these guys get paid fuckin thousand pounds to deliver. I love Tim Cahill he delivers time after time.. Not so some other fuckin so called blue boys who cant be arsed!
We are not up there because we have fucking passengers in the side. Work it out for yourselves who they are!
Been a Blue for over 50yrs and I fucking hate those who pull on the jersey and spout about being a blue!!
Am I annoyed yes. Should you be annoyed...well if your not ..that is were the problem lies..

Michael Kenrick - Appreciate the response.

I accept your stats as the way it is. But I was not referring to the last 4 years, not even last year. No team in Europe has made a true attempt to make the US their own. Not one.

Yes, the ManUs and Barcas/Real Madrids pack stadiums here as they do everywhere else. But neither them nor anyone else has made a concerted push into the American soccer fan-base. The ManUs and Barcas, etc are the ones seen on TV in America (CL especially). True.

This is an advantage, no question. They don't have to send people to plant their colors. And, realistically, they might like American money, but they have no great need of it. They've become who they are with very little or no support from the States. True again.

Yet, America is the best professional sports country on earth. Which leads us to the Little Engine That Could; EFC. I won't go into the lack of funds, woe is us. Plenty of that here. But the only team to take on, play, and treat like a King America's best soccer player and only charismatic soccer Star Landon Donovan had instant good-will among fans this side of the Pond. There's money in that. Sell A so we can buy B and maybe C? Better promotion in America absolutely, positively would generate equivalent funding.

It's almost embarrassing that EFC management didn't leap at the chance of promoting "Yes, We're Everton. The team that finally gave your best player a chance and treated him so well". Strange almost.

Almost as strange as a 60+ conversartion string about EFC finance and only you and Eugene Ruane responded to what I feel is a simple way for Mr. Moyes to accumulate some cash for next season.

Might as well repeat here my suggestion to end the season by handing Rodwell his passport, work visa, and plane ticket to Los Angeles to play on loan to Galaxy a month or two. "You mean EFC's talented and charismatic teenager who lifted Donovan up to English crowds chanting USA USA"? Yeah, him. "Where's Everton. What jersey do they wear? Isn't that Donovan's team in England"?

Michael, the bit of extra money to make the difference in retaining talent and grabbing EPL Silverware near term is connected to LD's playing and reception at EFC. The Club should take advantage because it's there to be had in America.

James,

Having you repeat your masterplan for Rodwell and Everton in the USA doesn't make it any more likely to happen.

And having you repeat the dubious claim that there's a pot of gold waiting for them doesn't mean that's true either. Just saying the money will be there and will come to Everton with better marketing, it's not enough I'm afraid.

To be honest, I think the rest of the contributors are being kind by ignoring your suggestions. It is somewhat out of left field and there is no real substance as to how this vast wealth is to be secured in the land of freedom and democracy.

I've been there. It doesn't grow on trees... although I was in New Mexico once and they proudly told me there was a woman behind every tree...

Hmmmm.... No Trees!

Jay,

Thanks for your kind words. I did indeed do a lot of research, though I feel a little under-prepared after reading the many knowledgeable contributions on this site.

I try to keep my articles reasonably balanced, but it does seem strange that even with all the financial issues Kenwright has not found an investor in all these years. I ended the piece by hinting that Kenwright could well be the barrier here, but without direct access I did not really want to push the point too much.

Dan you do talk utter bollocks at times but have taken the bicuit with the CoC has done nothing for Liverpool ignoring the massive debt put upon them by Waldorf and Stadtler you fucking tool. Are you local or did you not spend any time whatsoever in Liverpool during the CoC?

The streets were mobbed with tourists and many of them carrying bags full of shite from their store, even in the popularity stakes of being second we still would have sold merchandise to tourists. I seriously hope you don't run a business as you are as clueless as Black Bill.

As has already been asked and we are all still waiting for your learned response:

Who employed Wyness and allowed him to run his own business interests on Everton's time paying him bonuses for large portions of time whilst he was off work ill?

Who is ultimately responsible for the King's Dock?

I'll not hold my breath.

The reason that all the tourists bought LFC merchandise during CoC, is because LFC have a bigger fanbase Gav. You could have put fifty shops there, and wouldnt have made much difference. If people dont know your brand, you are going to sell very little.

But lets say I am totally wrong. And the store was opened during CoC, and we sold an extra 20,000 items, making a profit of 20 quid on each. Thats 400,000 grand before tax. So your master plan at best, would have paid for around 3 days of wages for the club. And, we would have to put the shop outside of the prefered L1 location, as it was not available.

So I ask again, what the fuck are going on about?

James, you ask why no European team has gone for promoting themselves in the US.
Maybe because it ranks about 50th in the most profitable sports, just behind tractor pulling and drive by shooting.

Swiss Rambler, your article was excellent. Yu don;t need to put the boot into somebody, as Jay would always wish, to illustrate the facts. Everton are indeed in a hiatus of sorts, clearly going nowhere from an overall financial perspective. Your analysis was insightful without being vindictive, that made it very readable.

The point about Kenwright possibly being the problem is not unfair in the slightest. despite his blue affiliations and protestions we do indeed seem to have bumbled along without any cohesive plan for the club. Despite the myopia of some on here, it could of course have been worse. We may have been bought by freeloaders like the Glaziers or Waldorf & Stadtler, or we could have been Leeds,or Newcastle, or Pompey, or West Ham etc.

But that's not to excuse what we have (or haven't) done ourselves. Our on-field performances (latterly) are essentially a distraction from the fact that, as a commercial enterprise, we are a little fucked and have no room for manouvre.

Whatever one's affiliations, and whether pro or anti Kenwright, or agnostic (as I am) this club could benefit greatly from some fresh new & creative thinking. I'm not convinced Kenwright is the biggest barrier to that, but I am wholly in favour of his departure if it results in, not simply a new direction, but one that keeps the interests of the club and the fans as its sole focus.

But again, excellent article.

Ciaran, re Arsenal, we'll have to agree to disagree, or that neither of us know the full facts. The Arsenal fans that I know, and they're usually an intelligent and insightful bunch, have always held to the fact that Arshavin/Wiltord remains their biggest purchase at £12/13m. See here - http://arsenal-mania.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31663

But my broader point was simply that Arsenal do NOT as a rule pay the whopper fees that some clubs do and prefer to buy young and develop.

As for their stadium, which is magnificent, the value of Highbury in the borough of Islington is enormous. On the back of that land value, then hugely increased by a large development of apartments which the club controlled, and augmented by their expected future income from a 60,000 stadium near he centre of London (they had a massive waiting list for season tickets), the were easily able to fund a mortgage to pay for the Emirates.

To counter: Goodison is in one of the poorest areas of one of the poorest cities in Britain. It's land value is trivial compared to Highbury and the notion of building smart apartments on it is pointless. Further, we have a waiting list for season tickets of.....zero.

The thing is, given our current plight as a club (excellently documented by Swiss Rambler), and the general financial climate, and our appeal as a brand both locally and globally, I see no other option than to follow the Arsenal model in some shape or form.

Our only hope is in the excellence of our coaching and our talent spotting. Unless/until EPL players wages come into the real world we will be hostages to hell in a hand kart. We should not be paying players 50,000 or more a week because we do not have the resources to do so. But if we don't they might leave for Man City or elsewhere. Now that seems to really piss off some fans on here. But I don't hear any solution to the problem, just meandering old shite like "we are Everton" and "nil satis nisi optimum".

History and Latin are not a guide to future success, nor do they ay the bills.

Alan,

Wow, praise indeed, thanks.

I'm very happy that you have interpreted the article exactly as I intended.