The Mail Bag
Secrets and Lies?
Comments (39)
Liverpool have just brought in Martin Broughton as Chairman and hired Barclays to secure the sale of the football club. These actions are all 100% solid indication of an owner looking to sell the club on to secure investment and look to the future.
Why then, as Evertonians, are we happy to take the word of Bill Kenwright — a man who has proven over and over again that he has neither the capital to take the club forward or the will to look for a sale personally — to sell the club and seek the investment we desperately need?
Surely if Kenwright undertook the action Liverpool have done today, then a sale would be one step closer. Yes, I know Everton are a "stable" club, but "stable" applies to both our finances and our league position. The way things stand, with the Sky Four dominance and the inevitable emergence of Manchester City, Tottenham and Aston Villa, if we maintain our current course then 8th place every year would be a top achievement.
So why aren't we taking positive action aimed at taking the club forward? Is it just a case that "Bullshit" Billy knows he's allowed to keep his toy whilst we're doing well because the fans are powerless to stop him doing whatever he wants? Whilst I understand we cannot do exactly what has been done over the park, surely there has to be some method available to Kenwright other than trying "24/7 to secure investment"...
Lee Kidd, Posted 16/04/2010 at 12:22:59
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I don't trust Bill neither but I do think a massive problem of selling everton is our ground and lack of revenue - due to Kenwright to a large degree but it does not change the facts.
We lose millions every year and doesn't seem much way of reversing this without gigantic investment.
We lose millions every year and doesn't seem much way of reversing this without gigantic investment.
Liverpool have a £300m debt hanging over them and their bank demanded a major reduction in the debt or sale of the club. Bit like West Ham (who many use as another stick to beat Kenwright with), or Notts County (ha ha ha), or Pompey (5 times, or is it 15 times) and so on and zzzz...
And whatever Evertonians might think, LFC is an international sporting brand stemming from decades of previous success. Selling it is the difference between selling a £1m apartment at Highbury and a £400k partment at Goodison. One is much easier than the other.
And even is saying that, they haven't actually been bought yet.
The title of this pointless article gives away the nonsense that informs it.
And whatever Evertonians might think, LFC is an international sporting brand stemming from decades of previous success. Selling it is the difference between selling a £1m apartment at Highbury and a £400k partment at Goodison. One is much easier than the other.
And even is saying that, they haven't actually been bought yet.
The title of this pointless article gives away the nonsense that informs it.
If you read the Blog of Swiss Rambler I think you'll see part of the problem is Everton's current business model which is very poor and running at a loss with nothing of value with exception of the player's registrations. I won't deny my srong aversion to Black Bill but can understand why this would put potential buyers off, the only trouble is that this isn't going to get any better unless there is a change of ownership, a catch 22.
I read the annual interest payments on the Bear Stearns financing is currently £4.1m, that's just interest and surely takes a big slice from any chance of making an annual profit. Our history means nothing to a buyer, recent history should as potential to break into the CL slots but without investment other teams will take their chance of breaking the cartel such as Man City and Spurs.
We all know we need to generate far more income than we do now but that's the job of the club, increased ticket prices wouldn't be popular but would make some inroads. Off field marketing has never been fully exploited. The term branding ever so popular amongst the big boys shows they understand marketing and selling themselves at every opportunity, we need to drop the old school boy mentality and move with the times or fall even further behind.
I read the annual interest payments on the Bear Stearns financing is currently £4.1m, that's just interest and surely takes a big slice from any chance of making an annual profit. Our history means nothing to a buyer, recent history should as potential to break into the CL slots but without investment other teams will take their chance of breaking the cartel such as Man City and Spurs.
We all know we need to generate far more income than we do now but that's the job of the club, increased ticket prices wouldn't be popular but would make some inroads. Off field marketing has never been fully exploited. The term branding ever so popular amongst the big boys shows they understand marketing and selling themselves at every opportunity, we need to drop the old school boy mentality and move with the times or fall even further behind.
ignore Alan, he wants to you to believe only clubs with recent success OR based in London are purchased.
Except Villa, Sunderland, and City (who also had a £100M debt) defy that argument.
You'd also think only clubs who don't need a new ground, get purchased. But then there's Villa/ Pompey/Liverpool/West Ham who all have expansion issues.
Except Villa, Sunderland, and City (who also had a £100M debt) defy that argument.
You'd also think only clubs who don't need a new ground, get purchased. But then there's Villa/ Pompey/Liverpool/West Ham who all have expansion issues.
"Why then, as Evertonians, are we happy to take the word of Bill Kenwright?"
Lee, what gives you the idea that Evertonians are happy about it? Judging by the usual comments that I read on toffeeweb the general feeling is that Evertonians are not happy about it, but what do you suggest they/we do?
Incidently, Kenwright appointed Keith Harris to conduct the search for a buyer.
Lee, what gives you the idea that Evertonians are happy about it? Judging by the usual comments that I read on toffeeweb the general feeling is that Evertonians are not happy about it, but what do you suggest they/we do?
Incidently, Kenwright appointed Keith Harris to conduct the search for a buyer.
Didn't Kenwright appoint Seymour Pierce Investment bank (Keith Harris) to help find a buyer?
Didn't he appoint Keith Wyness (ahem) to help with our branding?
While we should trust his 'words' - he has given more than just his words - clearly.
Keith Harris openly suggests that we are not attractive because of the trap we are in - Liverpool are surely in a deeper hole so it could well be the case that they dont find a decent buyer either
Didn't he appoint Keith Wyness (ahem) to help with our branding?
While we should trust his 'words' - he has given more than just his words - clearly.
Keith Harris openly suggests that we are not attractive because of the trap we are in - Liverpool are surely in a deeper hole so it could well be the case that they dont find a decent buyer either
Mike Ashley put Newcastle up for sale sometime ago and then lowered his valuation of the club and still didn't manage to attract any buyer. It's all well with these so called 'interested parties' coming forward but it's about putting your money where your mouth is and that's where the problem lies. No one has hard cash.
Man city were taken over by the sheikhs at a time when the global meltdown occurred. Although they have money to throw I bet now they are kicking themselves at the price which they bought man.city which would now have been a lot less than they shelled out.
Will be interesting to see which serious parties come forward. My guess is that it'll take a lot longer than people expect. Don't even be too surprised to see Gillette & Hicks withdraw their potential sale of the club if they cannot get the offer they consider good enough.
Man city were taken over by the sheikhs at a time when the global meltdown occurred. Although they have money to throw I bet now they are kicking themselves at the price which they bought man.city which would now have been a lot less than they shelled out.
Will be interesting to see which serious parties come forward. My guess is that it'll take a lot longer than people expect. Don't even be too surprised to see Gillette & Hicks withdraw their potential sale of the club if they cannot get the offer they consider good enough.
Kunai,
In the Ashley/Newcastle example you mentioned. I think the offers he recieved were extremely low and involved him taking a huge loss. Which prompted him to take the club off the market and focus on getting them promoted.
The BIG question is though, why (if there have been interested parties in EFC) we never hear about it?
Unsuccessful offers for Newcastle/ Liverpool/West Ham/Pompey/ United are frequently reported. But no-one ever appears to be linked with us.
In the Ashley/Newcastle example you mentioned. I think the offers he recieved were extremely low and involved him taking a huge loss. Which prompted him to take the club off the market and focus on getting them promoted.
The BIG question is though, why (if there have been interested parties in EFC) we never hear about it?
Unsuccessful offers for Newcastle/ Liverpool/West Ham/Pompey/ United are frequently reported. But no-one ever appears to be linked with us.
Jamie, the Seymour Pierce bit can't be denied even if Orville's mate says no one is buying clubs then busts a nut to get Man U a herd of takeover investors.
As far as Wyness was appointed for then your bet is as good as mine but oddly he tried the same trick with Aberdeen as he did to Everton; stadium falling down, move to retail park or die, he also had a stadium development company which was frozen until he got the job which was miraculously resurrected and very few cried the obvious conflict of interest and potential four way payday; Tesco, KMBC, Everton and his own company.
I have yet to see any branding or re-branding from the club or any of it's employees. Kunal the rumours of the price Waldorf and Stadtler have put on the RS is way too high but as always with those spawny satanic hordes they will be saved and bought out.
As far as Wyness was appointed for then your bet is as good as mine but oddly he tried the same trick with Aberdeen as he did to Everton; stadium falling down, move to retail park or die, he also had a stadium development company which was frozen until he got the job which was miraculously resurrected and very few cried the obvious conflict of interest and potential four way payday; Tesco, KMBC, Everton and his own company.
I have yet to see any branding or re-branding from the club or any of it's employees. Kunal the rumours of the price Waldorf and Stadtler have put on the RS is way too high but as always with those spawny satanic hordes they will be saved and bought out.
@ Phil - My guess is as good as yours I wish I had a concrete answer but I hear what everyones else hears. It's us the true supporters that get shitted on. The club never comes out and tells the fans the truth.
Is it Kenwright who is holding the club back? I don't know, but his long string of public announcements about investments, stadium plans etc now going back nearly 15 odd years just doesn't seem to all add up.
Perhaps he's a ditherer just like Davey. He's hesitant about new people coming forward and taking an interest in EFC. Perhaps concerned that we don't go the same way as West Ham and Pompey.
Whatever the opinion i'm sure there will be more of this come the summer and once again billy will be in the firing line when 'no funds' are mentioned.
@Gavin - Yes I can imagine that those horrible barstards will probably wrangle there way out and find loop holes into being bought. Nothing amazes me.They'll get the PL to somehow modify the rules for them.
Is it Kenwright who is holding the club back? I don't know, but his long string of public announcements about investments, stadium plans etc now going back nearly 15 odd years just doesn't seem to all add up.
Perhaps he's a ditherer just like Davey. He's hesitant about new people coming forward and taking an interest in EFC. Perhaps concerned that we don't go the same way as West Ham and Pompey.
Whatever the opinion i'm sure there will be more of this come the summer and once again billy will be in the firing line when 'no funds' are mentioned.
@Gavin - Yes I can imagine that those horrible barstards will probably wrangle there way out and find loop holes into being bought. Nothing amazes me.They'll get the PL to somehow modify the rules for them.
A number of problems a buyer faces :-
1) Clear the £70-90m debt
2) Build a new ground for £200m
3) Pump in £30-40m for 2-3 new quality players
4) And have we a fan base to fill any new ground as we dont even have a waiting list vis a vis Man U, Liverpool , Arsenal , Chelsea and Spurs.
Minimum total outlay £300m on a club with an operating income which ranks about at best 10th in the Premiership, and even falls below Newcastles .
Everton come from LIverpool and like it or not we are totally overshadowed worldwide by the Liverpool FC Brand.
Liverpool City is known as a deprived area vis a vis London, Manchester , and even Birmimgham and the only Corporate attractive team is Liverpool.
As Mr Keith Harris said a year or two ago - selling Everton will not be easy.
Our only chance is the miracle of getting into the CL and somehow getting through to final stages on a REGULAR basis or there is an Everton Billionaire out there who wants a new toy to play with.
1) Clear the £70-90m debt
2) Build a new ground for £200m
3) Pump in £30-40m for 2-3 new quality players
4) And have we a fan base to fill any new ground as we dont even have a waiting list vis a vis Man U, Liverpool , Arsenal , Chelsea and Spurs.
Minimum total outlay £300m on a club with an operating income which ranks about at best 10th in the Premiership, and even falls below Newcastles .
Everton come from LIverpool and like it or not we are totally overshadowed worldwide by the Liverpool FC Brand.
Liverpool City is known as a deprived area vis a vis London, Manchester , and even Birmimgham and the only Corporate attractive team is Liverpool.
As Mr Keith Harris said a year or two ago - selling Everton will not be easy.
Our only chance is the miracle of getting into the CL and somehow getting through to final stages on a REGULAR basis or there is an Everton Billionaire out there who wants a new toy to play with.
Mike,
I get your point but...
it's been documented GP can be redeveloped to a high standard. With a 50,000+ capacity and excellent corporate facilities for far less than the £200M you quote.
Our actual debt lies around £40M. However if the loan/debt was allowed to run the full length of its term then it would cost around £70M. But if someone came in with cash it would be nearer £40M to clear.
Would Everton at a Renevoated, modern Goodison Park with no debts immediately be worth a lot more than it is now? Yes of course it would as no debts and a modern stadium would be assets on a balance sheet.
£40M to buy the club
£100M GP renovate
£40M for debts
£40M on players
The result would be a club worth more than this outlay.
The owners could even raise more cash by allowing supporters to buy into the club.
It's not rocket science to appreciate that a few class signings, a renovated atmospheric stadium would;
a) increase attendances dramatically
b) Increase media attention
c) help develop club brand
d) help finish higher in league and challenge for cups -leading to
e) potentially greater prize and TV money.
Yes it isn't that simple. But it all starts with a willing seller!
I get your point but...
it's been documented GP can be redeveloped to a high standard. With a 50,000+ capacity and excellent corporate facilities for far less than the £200M you quote.
Our actual debt lies around £40M. However if the loan/debt was allowed to run the full length of its term then it would cost around £70M. But if someone came in with cash it would be nearer £40M to clear.
Would Everton at a Renevoated, modern Goodison Park with no debts immediately be worth a lot more than it is now? Yes of course it would as no debts and a modern stadium would be assets on a balance sheet.
£40M to buy the club
£100M GP renovate
£40M for debts
£40M on players
The result would be a club worth more than this outlay.
The owners could even raise more cash by allowing supporters to buy into the club.
It's not rocket science to appreciate that a few class signings, a renovated atmospheric stadium would;
a) increase attendances dramatically
b) Increase media attention
c) help develop club brand
d) help finish higher in league and challenge for cups -leading to
e) potentially greater prize and TV money.
Yes it isn't that simple. But it all starts with a willing seller!
Alan Kirwin: In answer to the above, we've had to cope through the Fortress Sports Fund mirage, the Kings Dock fiasco and the unbelievable Destination Kirkby saga, and yet Bill Kenwright doesn't have the fans at his throat like they would be at other clubs despite holding our club to ransom and forcing stagnation.
Added to that, the fans have little to no say in how the club is run, and the club release no knowledge to the fanbase to appease fears.
I didn't say "billionaire" by the way, I simply feel that somebody who has the resources of running a football club would be a step forward from Kenwright who is a serial liar. A man who hasn't told the truth about a single thing whatsoever - be it the "investments" to the transfer pots and the infamous "watch this space" remark.
Secrets and lies indeed - that is the very essence of Bill Kenwright.
Added to that, the fans have little to no say in how the club is run, and the club release no knowledge to the fanbase to appease fears.
I didn't say "billionaire" by the way, I simply feel that somebody who has the resources of running a football club would be a step forward from Kenwright who is a serial liar. A man who hasn't told the truth about a single thing whatsoever - be it the "investments" to the transfer pots and the infamous "watch this space" remark.
Secrets and lies indeed - that is the very essence of Bill Kenwright.
The 'fans' have no right to expect to have a say in how EFC is run! It is a fucking business whether we like it or not and fans are no more than customers....emotionally involved perhaps....but customers.
As for putting the club up for sale....be careful what you wish for. I don't want EFC to be pimped around like a fucking prostitute for sale to anybody who has a few bob, then manages the sale through the banks and loads the club with the sort of debt that has finished Portsmouth, could finish West Ham, made LIverpool a laughing stock and embarrassed Man Utd.
The game is entering a period of readjustment in any case, that is clear. Prem Clubs are no longer the desirable possessions they were a few years ago, especially not for the Banks. I'd rather have Kenwright in control than some pisshead who would do no more than the Yanks have done to Liverpool and Man Utd and a variety of others (I've lost count) have done to Portsmouth.
As for putting the club up for sale....be careful what you wish for. I don't want EFC to be pimped around like a fucking prostitute for sale to anybody who has a few bob, then manages the sale through the banks and loads the club with the sort of debt that has finished Portsmouth, could finish West Ham, made LIverpool a laughing stock and embarrassed Man Utd.
The game is entering a period of readjustment in any case, that is clear. Prem Clubs are no longer the desirable possessions they were a few years ago, especially not for the Banks. I'd rather have Kenwright in control than some pisshead who would do no more than the Yanks have done to Liverpool and Man Utd and a variety of others (I've lost count) have done to Portsmouth.
"I'd rather have Kenwright in control than some pisshead who would do no more than the Yanks have done to Liverpool and Man Utd and a variety of others (I've lost count) have done to Portsmouth."
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Same old scaremongering based in fantasy land, carefully disregarding the success stories such as Aston Villa and carefully regarding the stories of teams going above their station like Portsmouth.
I fail to understand the pro-Kenwright stance of "better the devil you know" when what "we know" is that we're doomed to mediocrity for the next decade and beyond due to utterly no investment.
I also find it ironic that people wish Kenwright to remain in charge, yet even he admits investment is needed!
We can do a lot, lot better than Kenwright, even in this economic climate.
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Same old scaremongering based in fantasy land, carefully disregarding the success stories such as Aston Villa and carefully regarding the stories of teams going above their station like Portsmouth.
I fail to understand the pro-Kenwright stance of "better the devil you know" when what "we know" is that we're doomed to mediocrity for the next decade and beyond due to utterly no investment.
I also find it ironic that people wish Kenwright to remain in charge, yet even he admits investment is needed!
We can do a lot, lot better than Kenwright, even in this economic climate.
Dave without getting on my anti Bill horse, look at our current business model, it's not sustainable and something will have to give. Last season saw the sale of a core member of the defence to fund any new signings, fortunately we have survived that but it was all last minute and basically fucked our start of season.
With this season looking to finish lower in the league, having no Wembley appearances and no decent run in Europe we are going to be down on last season's income. What's the net outcome of those figures? Will we have to sell a player or players just to meet operating costs? As much as I hate the phrase we are over achieving but won't keep it up for long.
With this season looking to finish lower in the league, having no Wembley appearances and no decent run in Europe we are going to be down on last season's income. What's the net outcome of those figures? Will we have to sell a player or players just to meet operating costs? As much as I hate the phrase we are over achieving but won't keep it up for long.
I thought the rumours of anybody being asked to find a buyer for the club had been promptly denied by the club - not that that counts for much.
As for the idea of Kenwright selling the club - he can't because he doesn't own it, not even a controlling interest. Kenwright is locked in with the other major share-holders. Until & unless somebody can buy a majority share-holding in the club then there won't be any major changes at Board level. Kenwright could sell his minority stake but why should he run the risk that others may hold out for a higher price? If other significant share-holders are unwiling to sell or are waiting for an offer at a high enough price then we are likely to have Kenwright in place as Chairman for a good while yet.
As for the idea of Kenwright selling the club - he can't because he doesn't own it, not even a controlling interest. Kenwright is locked in with the other major share-holders. Until & unless somebody can buy a majority share-holding in the club then there won't be any major changes at Board level. Kenwright could sell his minority stake but why should he run the risk that others may hold out for a higher price? If other significant share-holders are unwiling to sell or are waiting for an offer at a high enough price then we are likely to have Kenwright in place as Chairman for a good while yet.
Don't worry; If no one comes in to buy Liverpool, the Government will!
Or failing that, an investor with more money than City and Chelsea put together. Liverpool will then proceed to go and win every trophy they compete for, while Norwegian Kopites everywhere will resurrect the 'only two teams in Liverpool' crap. I'd loose the will to live, and Everton will get relegated!
Oh, and let's not forget that any moaning done by us along the way will be 'bitter'!
God, I hate LFC, and everything it stands for.
Or failing that, an investor with more money than City and Chelsea put together. Liverpool will then proceed to go and win every trophy they compete for, while Norwegian Kopites everywhere will resurrect the 'only two teams in Liverpool' crap. I'd loose the will to live, and Everton will get relegated!
Oh, and let's not forget that any moaning done by us along the way will be 'bitter'!
God, I hate LFC, and everything it stands for.
Mark Stone - you are correct Keith Harris was brought in, all he did was bring in Orville in the name of Steve Round.
Guys we all know Liverpool will find a genuine buyer, they are a media machine Brand, we are not.
Guys we all know Liverpool will find a genuine buyer, they are a media machine Brand, we are not.
Lee, can you elaborate on the Villa 'success' story? Is this the same Villa that are operating at a ridiculous 75% wage to turnover, and double the debt of us? What are you measuring success on exactly? Because business wise, they are shite.
If Everton were for sale at £50 would there be any buyers?
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance?league=eng.1&cc=5739
This table is ridiculously close the actual league positions. Coincidence? Of course not. Business plans and building merchandise stores during festivals are drops in the ocean, almost negligible. All that seems to count is bums on seats.
This table is ridiculously close the actual league positions. Coincidence? Of course not. Business plans and building merchandise stores during festivals are drops in the ocean, almost negligible. All that seems to count is bums on seats.
Liverpool ain't going to find a buyer within the next 12 months - after that, it will depend on league position. They may have been more of an asset if they had finished in the top 4 this time, but that ain't going to happen.
Also, Broughton has been bought in so Liverpool can have an extension on their loan which was supposed to be paid back next month (or was it July). Didn't we do the same with the Planet Hollywood bloke?
Kenwright hasn't been lamented in the last 24 hours on Toffeeweb, so well done to the poster for feeding on the scraps of Liverpool's spin and spitting them out all over Bullshit Bill.
Also, Broughton has been bought in so Liverpool can have an extension on their loan which was supposed to be paid back next month (or was it July). Didn't we do the same with the Planet Hollywood bloke?
Kenwright hasn't been lamented in the last 24 hours on Toffeeweb, so well done to the poster for feeding on the scraps of Liverpool's spin and spitting them out all over Bullshit Bill.
Agree with Gavin Ramejkis (4), the report on our finances is a must read even though it's pretty bleak, and there are a number of 'must dos' first one is that we need a new stadium and quickly and/or crank ticket prices up, but like all commodities this has its perils. Secondly we must sell the club better and merchandising must increase. I'm neither pro or anti BK, I don't think he's rich enough, (but I also feel that football as an industry should be able to pay its own way-but that's another story)
But if he deserves criticism, it is the abject failure to market the club that amounts to a scandalous dereliction of duty not to promote Everton in the four corners of the world. When I hear people say that the Sky 4 are the only teams people are interested in, I say why and does that mean that a people shouldn’t open a restaurant or a cab company or promote a new bar of chocolate because the market leaders are too well established so you’re wasting your time? I think not, or more to the point I hope not. We advertise Change Beer-a huge market, we’ve got American footballers another huge market, don’t tell me that Man U the RS have the market sown up, that’s just defeatist and lazy.
But if he deserves criticism, it is the abject failure to market the club that amounts to a scandalous dereliction of duty not to promote Everton in the four corners of the world. When I hear people say that the Sky 4 are the only teams people are interested in, I say why and does that mean that a people shouldn’t open a restaurant or a cab company or promote a new bar of chocolate because the market leaders are too well established so you’re wasting your time? I think not, or more to the point I hope not. We advertise Change Beer-a huge market, we’ve got American footballers another huge market, don’t tell me that Man U the RS have the market sown up, that’s just defeatist and lazy.
Lee,
Further to Dan's point can you explain why Aston Villa are regarded as such a great success. They have won nothing since they were taken over and we have consistently finished above them in the league. After seeing us outplay them on Wednesday night, I think there is a very good chance we will finish above them again. I'm not having a pop at your comment, I am simply interested why you and many others seem to think Villa have been such a big success.
Further to Dan's point can you explain why Aston Villa are regarded as such a great success. They have won nothing since they were taken over and we have consistently finished above them in the league. After seeing us outplay them on Wednesday night, I think there is a very good chance we will finish above them again. I'm not having a pop at your comment, I am simply interested why you and many others seem to think Villa have been such a big success.
Dan (23) - Liverpool's matchday revenue is around double ours. Their corporate box income is obviously much bigger than ours, but their ticket prices are similar.
With an average attendance maybe 3-4k more than ours, and with maybe a few more home games due to CL, clearly it is more than just bums on seats,
With an average attendance maybe 3-4k more than ours, and with maybe a few more home games due to CL, clearly it is more than just bums on seats,
We are a little stuck! It is as hopeful expecting a buyer as buying a lottery ticket on saturday as its a huge outlay and not going to be profitable unless some fucker comes in and sells all of our assets and we end up like Pompey!
Our only chance of change is success and thats hopeful as well as their are so many teams wanting the same CL spots.
We need to pester Paul McCartney to show his colours!!!
Or hope that we can achieve next year!!
Our only chance of change is success and thats hopeful as well as their are so many teams wanting the same CL spots.
We need to pester Paul McCartney to show his colours!!!
Or hope that we can achieve next year!!
Martin, we've no chance with McCartney; he's not on the rebound and we are not a slapper with a wooden leg who puts out on the first date.
Seriously, I do worry when I think about the business model and just where the next money is coming from.
Seriously, I do worry when I think about the business model and just where the next money is coming from.
Phil Martin, it really would do you some good to both read what is actually posted and to think before you leap in with more nonsense.
Recent success has not been put forward by anyone, to my knowledge, as a reason for non purchase of EFC. It HAS been put forward as a yardstick for those fans who for some inexplicable reason think EFC have some odd divine right to be at or near the top of the league. One top 4 finish in 23 years, attendances that rank halfway down the league and no waiting list does not square with the EXPECTATIONS of some fans (like you no doubt).
And can you please try and keep your points coherent. Using Portsmouth as a basis for what Everton could be doing is nonsense. They are a fucking shambles, have sold an entire team and still over £100m in debt. They have the shittiest ground in the top 2 divisions and gates of 20,000. Nobody, that's NOBODY, has bought Portsmouth and given them investment. Gaydamak did it for one year with dirty money from his father, then fucked off sharpish.
West Ham are also a shambles. Gold & Sullivan have taken on their liabilities and acquired them for next to sod all. BUT they have a potential master stroke,it's called the Olympic stadium. If that wasn't on the horizon then they wouldn't be there.
Newcastle haven't been sold, nor Liverpool. The demographics for Everton are hard to argue against. Liverpool is now a very small city (half the population of 30 years ago). Manchester is a huge metropolis in comparison, and City had a ready made stadium. And then EFC have to share with LFC which, like it or not, has an international brand and a lot of past success.
Now, it's not illegal to stick one's head up one;s arse and ignore the realities of life, but some of us prefer to think & speak with reality as the backdrop. It doesn't temper our dreams, but it does temper our expectations and disappointment.
If you want to carry on believing EFC is a massive club and that, as our motto is in Latin, it was somehow handed down by Moses and must be true, then carry on dear boy.
Meanwhile, back in the real world...
Recent success has not been put forward by anyone, to my knowledge, as a reason for non purchase of EFC. It HAS been put forward as a yardstick for those fans who for some inexplicable reason think EFC have some odd divine right to be at or near the top of the league. One top 4 finish in 23 years, attendances that rank halfway down the league and no waiting list does not square with the EXPECTATIONS of some fans (like you no doubt).
And can you please try and keep your points coherent. Using Portsmouth as a basis for what Everton could be doing is nonsense. They are a fucking shambles, have sold an entire team and still over £100m in debt. They have the shittiest ground in the top 2 divisions and gates of 20,000. Nobody, that's NOBODY, has bought Portsmouth and given them investment. Gaydamak did it for one year with dirty money from his father, then fucked off sharpish.
West Ham are also a shambles. Gold & Sullivan have taken on their liabilities and acquired them for next to sod all. BUT they have a potential master stroke,it's called the Olympic stadium. If that wasn't on the horizon then they wouldn't be there.
Newcastle haven't been sold, nor Liverpool. The demographics for Everton are hard to argue against. Liverpool is now a very small city (half the population of 30 years ago). Manchester is a huge metropolis in comparison, and City had a ready made stadium. And then EFC have to share with LFC which, like it or not, has an international brand and a lot of past success.
Now, it's not illegal to stick one's head up one;s arse and ignore the realities of life, but some of us prefer to think & speak with reality as the backdrop. It doesn't temper our dreams, but it does temper our expectations and disappointment.
If you want to carry on believing EFC is a massive club and that, as our motto is in Latin, it was somehow handed down by Moses and must be true, then carry on dear boy.
Meanwhile, back in the real world...
Stupid big nose fucking cunt face Phil Thompson on SSN saying that they should be bought without question ahead of Everton and Newcastle. I hate this cunt!!!Arrrrrgghh!!!!w@nker.
Dan Brierley - interesting table. It should also be noted that Liverool, Chelsea & Spurs are limited by capacity,full every game and large waiting lists.
Sunderland are shite and averaging 40,000. Villa are going nowhere, but probably the most comparable club to us because, as far as I know, they also have no waiting list.
There are other factors. Sunderland is a similar sized city and only 1 club. Newcastle is a bigger city and only 1 club. So to is Leeds. It is a sad reality and one which makes for inconvenient reading, but EFC is no longer a big club. Yes, of course we have pedigree and history. The club means everything to us. But business and sentiment are not the same.
Buying EFC as an investment is difficult to square. You have to buy the shares, then the debts, then inject some working capital and then build a stadium to maximise future returns. I'd put the cost of all that at roughly £500m. There ain't no way in heaven that you could get a return on that. You'd only do it if you are an Evertonian with the money to spare.
Those who keep posting on here about our history and appeal in comparison to others should ditch the emotional delusions and think commercially. We are not at the top table and we are broken. But we are not as broken as a West Ham or a Portsmouth, such that our banks get pissed off and demand a fire sale. Everything is relative.
Sunderland are shite and averaging 40,000. Villa are going nowhere, but probably the most comparable club to us because, as far as I know, they also have no waiting list.
There are other factors. Sunderland is a similar sized city and only 1 club. Newcastle is a bigger city and only 1 club. So to is Leeds. It is a sad reality and one which makes for inconvenient reading, but EFC is no longer a big club. Yes, of course we have pedigree and history. The club means everything to us. But business and sentiment are not the same.
Buying EFC as an investment is difficult to square. You have to buy the shares, then the debts, then inject some working capital and then build a stadium to maximise future returns. I'd put the cost of all that at roughly £500m. There ain't no way in heaven that you could get a return on that. You'd only do it if you are an Evertonian with the money to spare.
Those who keep posting on here about our history and appeal in comparison to others should ditch the emotional delusions and think commercially. We are not at the top table and we are broken. But we are not as broken as a West Ham or a Portsmouth, such that our banks get pissed off and demand a fire sale. Everything is relative.
Liverpool FC - £240m debt, current owners will want £400 - £500m for the "franchise". Massive wage bill, new stadium would cost £300-400m.
That is a total of around £1 billion before seeing any return.
From where would that money come, Middle east, India, China, Korea ?
Across the park you have Everton, £34m debt, low wage bill, owners would want around £200m, new stadium same as LFC £300 - 400m, toal cost around £500m, less than half of the requirement to buy LFC.
Both teams play in the richest league in the world, input half the money for this "franchise" and upgrade the playing staff by 3 or 4 players and you have a team challenging for honours.
If it makes sense to investors to buy Liverpool to make money, it makes more sense to buy Everton and save that money.
If the history of a club means nothing (Man City) then Liverpools history means nothing also.
That is a total of around £1 billion before seeing any return.
From where would that money come, Middle east, India, China, Korea ?
Across the park you have Everton, £34m debt, low wage bill, owners would want around £200m, new stadium same as LFC £300 - 400m, toal cost around £500m, less than half of the requirement to buy LFC.
Both teams play in the richest league in the world, input half the money for this "franchise" and upgrade the playing staff by 3 or 4 players and you have a team challenging for honours.
If it makes sense to investors to buy Liverpool to make money, it makes more sense to buy Everton and save that money.
If the history of a club means nothing (Man City) then Liverpools history means nothing also.
Larry - sold!
Larry, quite right... but LFC is being handled by professional financiers that want to make a deal with a much more marketable franchise.
EFC's sale is very complicated and IMO will not happen until we get a new stadium with a big retail presence. (There's a clue for you!)
EFC's sale is very complicated and IMO will not happen until we get a new stadium with a big retail presence. (There's a clue for you!)
The big difference is that the RS owners want to sell, but are setting a ridiculous price.
The Everton owners do not want to sell, they want someone to give them money with no guarantees, the same way as it works in financing theatrical shows.
The Everton owners do not want to sell, they want someone to give them money with no guarantees, the same way as it works in financing theatrical shows.
I'm not sure of the exact figures here but the Shite owners want £800M; debts of £250M; stadium of £400M; players say £100M - total £1.5B!!! Take us debts around £40M revamp Goodison say £200M; players say £300M — total £0.5B.
As an investor this is a relatively straight forward decision — it has to be Everton as they could become a solid European force for a third the price of the Shite. Trouble is there aren't too many out there with £0.5B!!!
Portsmouth are appealing to Uefa to be allowed to play in next season's Europa as FA Cup finalists.
In my opinion, that's a crock of shite. They missed their chance to apply, so it's their own fault. Yes, the money will help the club struggling with cash. But, should we finnish 7th, we would need the cash too.
The only fair thing to do is deny Portsmouth a place and give it to 7th. Whever it be us, Aston Villa, or Liverpool who finish there.
A reading of the Uefa Regulations about entry into the Europa League can be recommended for a cure for insomnia and provides a study in contradiction not clarity. You can chase the PDF via this link: http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=316965.html
But, having heard BBC Football Focus today and having trawled through the document, there MIGHT be a chance eighth is enough for a Europa slot. How? Liverpool winning the trophy this season.
The relevant line says this: if the Uefa titleholder does not qualify for either the Champions League through its domestic competitions, its participation in the Europa League is not at the expense of the contingent of its association.'
What's more, it might be possible — if the Fair Play place comes to England and Fulham win the Europa — that eighth might also be enough.
Put me out of my misery — is this correct?!
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1 Posted 16/04/2010 at 14:01:08
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Much as it rips my heart to say it, they do have a global brand image far more superior to ours. They do have the sort of iconic recognition to draw out serious investors that we can only dream about.
I would just love to see them go into melt-down and have to eat some humble pie for a change. However, I just cannot see that happening. Somehow at the final hour somebody will come in and rescue them and put them back at the 'Top-Trough.'
Even if they don't attract an instant buyer, they will probably win the Europa Cup on penalties. Of course then they will put Plan B into action, were they get the rules changed to allow the EC winners to play in the Champions League!!!
Just hoping the Yanks play hardball over the asking price, and they scare away serious buyers. It will be really irritating though to see them sold off, and us, still without an offer on the table.