The Mail Bag
Learning From Others
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As Everton fans we do not readily give praise to other teams/managers or players, but I feel that there are times that, as a club, we can learn from others.
This article is specifically about Seamus Coleman and the fact that many EFC fans want to see him be part of the first team next season. I believe, although I haven’t actually heard him say so, that DM thinks Coleman is a bit too naive as a defender to play at right back in the EPL. We all know, the boss included, that he is a real menace going forward however. So, how can we learn from others?
The most obvious comparison is Gareth Bale at Spurs. Last season he lost his place, and his confidence, through a series of costly defensive errors. Harry Redknapp clearly didn’t think that he was good enough to play at left back, even though he is a real menace going forward. Sound familiar?
Redknapp’s response has been to recognise his attacking potential and reposition him in left midfield with licence to bomb forward at every opportunity with the bonus that he can cover the left back when needed.
Whether you love or hate the way Spurs play (or couldn’t give a damn), it would be hard to deny that Bale is a really exciting player to watch. From what I have seen of Coleman, he could be our Bale. I do not seriously believe that DM will play him at right back ahead of Neville/Hibbert but why not in right midfield?
Most of us would say that almost all of our threat comes from the left through Peanut and Baines with little or nothing down the right. Coleman could give us a better balance and make us a real attacking threat.
Even if we don’t like to heap praise on others, credit should be given where it is due. I say well done Mr Redknapp for what you have done with Bale this season. I hope that we can learn from this and at least consider doing the same with Coleman.
Mick Stanley, Posted 21/04/2010 at 16:30:49
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Mick, I've been saying this for some time. Seamus is not a winger but we don't have any wingers. To have given him a chance in our last few games would have been common sense, I reckon he'd do as good a job as Vic or Leon Osman. He has pace, something we are devoid of. Ideally I'd give him a chance at right back but while Phil Neville and Tony Hibbert are at Goodison Park that isn't going to happen.
Bale is a decent player and obviously Seamus lacks his experience, however, Seamus Coleman will be better. I honestly believe had David Moyes been bold we'd be having a much more exciting end to the season.
Now then, now then.
I've mentioned this before.........
http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/09-10/comment/mailbag/14981.html
I've mentioned this before.........
http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/09-10/comment/mailbag/14981.html
This idea has been muted several times durring the season.
It seems that DM is too square in his thinking to consider the option.
It seems that DM is too square in his thinking to consider the option.
Do we have a player called Coleman on our books? Didn't realise.....
PS - I wish they would invent a font for sarcasm!!!
PS - I wish they would invent a font for sarcasm!!!
You want to learn from others??? Good idea. Tell DM to watch the CL. If he does, he'll see fullbacks steaming forwards to widen the field and fill in alleys.
Whether we move SC to midfield or keep him at fullback, what HAS to happen is that we find a fullback capable of going forward and pumping in good crosses.
How can Neville go countless matches and practices (probably tens of thousands of hours) and still not be able to put in a good cross???
Whether we move SC to midfield or keep him at fullback, what HAS to happen is that we find a fullback capable of going forward and pumping in good crosses.
How can Neville go countless matches and practices (probably tens of thousands of hours) and still not be able to put in a good cross???
In fairness Andy, re: post 2, a 3-2 away win to Blackburn with a last minute winner and some excellent football is pretty exciting dont you think ?! We have scored a few and conceded a few in the run in and played some lovely stuff going forward. its at the back where we have been having problems . As much as I look forward to seeing Seamus develop, I do not think he would have added much from a defensive point of view, and thats where we have been weak, not in attack . In saying that I think he will turn out to be a quality player, injuries permitting of course .
"Seamus Coleman will be better.." than Gareth Bale?? Did you watch Bale's performance against Chelsea at the weekend? He was absolutely unplayable and the Chelsea defence shit themselves every time he got the ball. Seamus Coleman might be a half decent prospect, but that's all he is. He's supposed to be doing well enough at Blackpool but he's not setting the world alight.
Also, when they played Newcastle the other week, he was given a torrid time by that long haired Argie with the Spiderman mask down his pants and looked to be out of his depth. A lot of Evertonians seem to have gone prematurely overboard about this lad. A good 45 minutes cameo against Spurs does not make him the answer to all our right sided problems.
Right, since we all now have realised that Tone Hibbs and Moyes, has finally worked out that his game needed to be an attacker and not just a defender, then as Andy Crooks and I have been saying for god knows how many months, for god's sake get a right back. And I have to say Hibbert (because he's the best tackler in the Premier League) and then Seamus as the right mid winger to start next season.
I can't say enough how obvious this answer to our right side is. Great tackling, forward motion, the will to get back and defend, if this happens then we'll all be chatting how bad our left side is.
For me this is what Davie Moyles (sorry BBC communist) Moyes has to now think about in the close season. WHY WOULD HE EVER HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT....... Bale?
I can't say enough how obvious this answer to our right side is. Great tackling, forward motion, the will to get back and defend, if this happens then we'll all be chatting how bad our left side is.
For me this is what Davie Moyles (sorry BBC communist) Moyes has to now think about in the close season. WHY WOULD HE EVER HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT....... Bale?
A few points to remember, Moyes always wants his full backs to cover his fragile centre halves. He is not happy with any CH combination he has available from Yobo, Jags, Senderos, Distin, Heitinga (the Jags/Heitinga combination is TOO SMALL to be considered, so let's us all forget it) and this means he wants full backs who are good defensively, something Coleman hasn't proven yet.
Moyes also wants wing backs who as a matter of fact provide defensive qualities as a priority.
Moyes also wants wing backs who as a matter of fact provide defensive qualities as a priority.
Lets get real. Clubs were bending over backwards to sign Bale who was widely recognised as an undoubted talent from an early age. Coleman struggled to make an impression but Moyes has seen something in him to make him worth a punt. Sorry but thats as good as it gets for "Mustard" - see what I did there?
I just won a bet tonight. Before I went out to the pub, I said to my girlfriend that by the time we got back Andy Crooks or one of the Irish mafia who rule this site would say how great Coleman is, I was right. Do you guys never see a game? Do you think Mr Moyes doesn't watch training? At least Cairnan Mcglone sounds Irish.
Boring. I think Toffeeweb should put a ban on all Coleman related articles until he actually plays for us.
I would also like to see the end of Bily 'will he/won't he next season' articles. Next season see us raw articles.... Cahill articles... And any 'who will we/should we sell' articles until at least post-World Cup.
I would also like to see the end of Bily 'will he/won't he next season' articles. Next season see us raw articles.... Cahill articles... And any 'who will we/should we sell' articles until at least post-World Cup.
@ Mike Oates,
Moyes always wants his full backs to cover his fragile centre halves .
What utter rubbish. If what we know from Moyes then the full backs were never going to be signed to cover the centre halves it's the fullback's job to be fullbacks, ie Hibbert.
At some point the centre halves were keeping all opposition attackers at bay. Due to injuries etc Moyes then had to bring in different line ups to play. this then had an effect on our clean sheet performancies.
Once this is sorted then your argument as to our right back and attack right wing becomes superflous.
1/ we have a great defender (tackles) in Hibbert.
2/ We have a great attacker who knows about defending in Seamus.
Therefore we must then conclude we now have the ultimate attack, defense down the right hand side of the pitch.
So with this Modus Oppundani I say say to Mr Moyes FORTUNE FAVOUS THE BRAVE!! Davey, next season — DO IT!
Moyes always wants his full backs to cover his fragile centre halves .
What utter rubbish. If what we know from Moyes then the full backs were never going to be signed to cover the centre halves it's the fullback's job to be fullbacks, ie Hibbert.
At some point the centre halves were keeping all opposition attackers at bay. Due to injuries etc Moyes then had to bring in different line ups to play. this then had an effect on our clean sheet performancies.
Once this is sorted then your argument as to our right back and attack right wing becomes superflous.
1/ we have a great defender (tackles) in Hibbert.
2/ We have a great attacker who knows about defending in Seamus.
Therefore we must then conclude we now have the ultimate attack, defense down the right hand side of the pitch.
So with this Modus Oppundani I say say to Mr Moyes FORTUNE FAVOUS THE BRAVE!! Davey, next season — DO IT!
Sorry Tom. Read my name, read my comment. I hope your girlfriend isn't racist.
Tom Neeson is going to just love me but I also think Seamus should be played anywhere on the right hand side. I think some players are much better in training than in matches and vice versa. He deserved another chance at least after the Spurs game.
p.s Modus Oppundani- was that the Nigerian winger we tried to sign? ;-)
p.s Modus Oppundani- was that the Nigerian winger we tried to sign? ;-)
@ Fran,sorry but you are boring. This is a site were we can all voice our opinions.
Tom Neeson, I actually find a lot of what Andy Crooks says is kind of intellectually valid and has a lot of good things to say. Sorry pal and don't forget I love to death being an Evertonian but please don't slag off my fellow Evertonian because of were he comes from.
From your post are you saying that Mr Seamus is shite? Or are we all wrong.....
Tom Neeson, I actually find a lot of what Andy Crooks says is kind of intellectually valid and has a lot of good things to say. Sorry pal and don't forget I love to death being an Evertonian but please don't slag off my fellow Evertonian because of were he comes from.
From your post are you saying that Mr Seamus is shite? Or are we all wrong.....
And by the way if you are going to look down favourably on the Irish supporter, at least take the time to spell his name right!
Thanks Chris, MO, smart arse! Hee Hee
Hey everyone you think Andy Gray always has the "last word" — he hasn't met me......
Jon Cox - I think what Mikes Oates meant (apologies if I've got this wrong Mike) is that Moyes ideally wants fullbacks with the defensive nous - and pace - to "cover" for any problems we might have in our defensive unit (i.e central defence) on the pitch. Not to cover for them as central defensive back-up options. I don't think Moyes would ever want to see Leighton Baines (fantastic player though he is) slotting in at centre half. Hibbert did it a couple of times - rather well I thought - when we had out defensive crisis earlier in the season, but I think that was hardly by design.
Seamus Coleman has got everyone on here talking. From what I've seen so far he is tenacious, quick, and direct. Getting behind the Spurs left back a couple of times does not make him a winger. Not yet. And I severely doubt he is in the Gareth Bale class. I 100% hope I am wrong - but he has not done much as of yet to deserve some of the hype that is going round on here. I think Moyes is watching this more closely - and with a more trained eye - than anyone on this forum, and we should trust him with his judgement of the player.
Seamus Coleman has got everyone on here talking. From what I've seen so far he is tenacious, quick, and direct. Getting behind the Spurs left back a couple of times does not make him a winger. Not yet. And I severely doubt he is in the Gareth Bale class. I 100% hope I am wrong - but he has not done much as of yet to deserve some of the hype that is going round on here. I think Moyes is watching this more closely - and with a more trained eye - than anyone on this forum, and we should trust him with his judgement of the player.
Andrew, your first sentence,
"Jon Cox – I think what Mikes Oates meant (apologies if I've got this wrong Mike) is that Moyes ideally wants fullbacks with the defensive nous."
Are your saying that Hibbert is not a defender? As a defender Hibbs is one of the best defeners in the league.
Hibbert has never been picked to cover for the central defeners, this is a complete straw man argument.
With Hibbs as right back and Coleman as right attack then it seams to me that we have the best of both worlds.
Coleman to attack and Hibbs to defend with the youth of Coleman to race back to help Hibbs.
It's not rocket science, it's about what Coleman can do for the next five years.
"Jon Cox – I think what Mikes Oates meant (apologies if I've got this wrong Mike) is that Moyes ideally wants fullbacks with the defensive nous."
Are your saying that Hibbert is not a defender? As a defender Hibbs is one of the best defeners in the league.
Hibbert has never been picked to cover for the central defeners, this is a complete straw man argument.
With Hibbs as right back and Coleman as right attack then it seams to me that we have the best of both worlds.
Coleman to attack and Hibbs to defend with the youth of Coleman to race back to help Hibbs.
It's not rocket science, it's about what Coleman can do for the next five years.
PS Bale has had the media up his arse, Coleman (thank fuck) hasn't.
Don't forget once he has we well lose him. Let's keep this potential jewel in our pocket.
Don't forget once he has we well lose him. Let's keep this potential jewel in our pocket.
Are you some how saying that I am a racist, Brendan McLaughlan? I am not. I think that a lot of Irish supporters want there own players to be in the Everton first team. Andy Crooks writes every week about Coleman without backing up what he says. Everyone is entitled to there opinion and this site should allow freedom of speech which it does.
Tom
It's pedantic i know but its really not very difficult.
their opinion, not there opinion.
their - possession
there - place
they're - they are
It's pedantic i know but its really not very difficult.
their opinion, not there opinion.
their - possession
there - place
they're - they are
A nice lesson, Fran. Now if only you could get people to write I instead of i and teach some these old dogs that most punctuation marks take a space AFTER them, Andy Crooks... (and not before, Dave Wilson and Mike Oates!).
You refer to Gareth Bale at left back for Spurs as having turned things around with a series of good performances. However I think the comparison with Coleman is a little off the mark. For the right back position we have Neville, Hibbert and Coleman. I think the comparison should be with Baines - he is a fine attcking full back, but I still feel he lacks some skills as a defender. But what competition does he have for the left back position? We have more than adequate strenght in depth for the right back/right side of the defence, but on the left it's a different matter.
I personally think that Seamus Coleman will develop in similar way to Ossie, he will be here for a while he will get the odd appearance next year. But he won't be a regular player for Everton next year in my eyes. I think somebody else said this earlier, but Bale has been noted as a player by many for some time, when he was coming through the ranks at Southampton. Seamus, was looked at by both Birmingham & Everton if memory serves and we took a chance, what was it £150k? – he is 21 now so he needs to make waves fairly quickly.
He is good going forward, no question what I think he needs is exactly what he is getting at Blackpool, game time. He wont be anything like as good as Bale, but he could still turn out to be a steady Eddie defender with some nous going forward. As for putting him on the wing, I think that is a load of cobblers, I don't think it would work, though I will totally accept it if I am wrong!
I think Coleman looks like he has so much potential with what I have seen and that is every second of his season with us, from his nightmare at Benfica, ordinary against Bate, to superb against Spurs for half an hour. God help this lad if he does not turn into a world beater he is getting hyped up to be.
Moyes makes mistakes but he has generally been perfect with how he introduces inexperienced players, so try trusting him. Our right backs have hardly been skinned this season, the trouble is in the centre.
"How can Neville go countless matches and practices (probably tens of thousands of hours) and still not be able to put in a good cross???"
Chris, how can Arteta, as fantastic as he is, not be able to put in a corner that beats the first man, time and time again? I mean I assume he practices (probably tens of thousands of hours) same with Baines's corners and free kicks etc.
Don't get me wrong, I am not praising Neville, as he is a very limited player but you shouldn't just say that he "should" be doing this in matches because he trains well. I image Cahill scores every one of his headers in training but he is guilty of some abomniable misses this season.
Chris, how can Arteta, as fantastic as he is, not be able to put in a corner that beats the first man, time and time again? I mean I assume he practices (probably tens of thousands of hours) same with Baines's corners and free kicks etc.
Don't get me wrong, I am not praising Neville, as he is a very limited player but you shouldn't just say that he "should" be doing this in matches because he trains well. I image Cahill scores every one of his headers in training but he is guilty of some abomniable misses this season.
A warning to Everton supporters. Don't come home from the pub ratarsed and log onto ToffeeWeb. You might end up writing the shite I seem to have written last night. Sorry, really sorry. I ahve a raging hangover and more apologies to make closer to home.
YIP.....then we could have three right backs on the pitch...and we all know that's Davey preferred formation..
Maybe we could even fit Gosling in somewhere and have 4 right backs on...
How about a whole team of right backs?
Maybe we could even fit Gosling in somewhere and have 4 right backs on...
How about a whole team of right backs?
Haha...Irish Mafia...
They have a name you know!
Hysterical.
They have a name you know!
Hysterical.
Learning from others?
Yes, they can learn from Moyes in buying £2 mill players and changing them into £20 mill players. End of.
Yes, they can learn from Moyes in buying £2 mill players and changing them into £20 mill players. End of.
Harry Redknapp is a crook and should never be congratulated. We need less of his type involved in the game we all love.
Just want to say that Bale has only played left midfield since spurs had a few injuries, not a master stroke from Redknapp.
Tom Neeson sounds pretty irish to me, you denying your roots Tom??
I doubt Irish supporters want loads of Irish players in the team as Ireland dont have many good players.
ps: Hope the hangover's sorted ;-)
I doubt Irish supporters want loads of Irish players in the team as Ireland dont have many good players.
ps: Hope the hangover's sorted ;-)
Back to the top of the thread (no. 8) and a reponse to John Daley, who compared Bale against Chelsea to Coleman against Newcastle.
Two important criteria to consider:
As well as making his debut several years ago, Bale has benefitted from a season of succesful FA Cup and Premier League appearances with Spurs, who are doing rather well right now. Coleman meanwhile had has a couple of games for Everton and a handful at the end of the season for Blackpool.
Secondly, and more importantly, when they were directly up against each other at Goodison earlier this season, Coleman won hands down and made Bale look like an out-of-his-depth novice.
Give our man some experience (which hopefully his time at Blackpool will augment), and he will become everything we want him to be...
Two important criteria to consider:
As well as making his debut several years ago, Bale has benefitted from a season of succesful FA Cup and Premier League appearances with Spurs, who are doing rather well right now. Coleman meanwhile had has a couple of games for Everton and a handful at the end of the season for Blackpool.
Secondly, and more importantly, when they were directly up against each other at Goodison earlier this season, Coleman won hands down and made Bale look like an out-of-his-depth novice.
Give our man some experience (which hopefully his time at Blackpool will augment), and he will become everything we want him to be...
You beat me to it David Booth! The very player that Coleman was giving the runaround to in the Spurs game earlier in the season was Gareth Bale!
We couldnt afford the £7million Spurs spent on Bale so we end up spending £150k on the likes of Coleman in the hope that we unearth a gem. If he turns out to be any kind of a Premier league right back then it was money well spent.
We couldnt afford the £7million Spurs spent on Bale so we end up spending £150k on the likes of Coleman in the hope that we unearth a gem. If he turns out to be any kind of a Premier league right back then it was money well spent.
Bale has had a few good games lately, but the whole team has been playing well. It took him 24 games to record his first win, and he cost about 80 times more than what Coleman did. The similarities dont even begin with the 2 players.
Gareth Bale, transfer fee c.£10M, and a highly rated player playing first team football since his teens.
Seamus Coleman, picked up from the Irish league for around £250k.
This in itself proves nothing, but it is indicative that these are two very different footballers. To suggest Coleman is 'as good' as Bale is to dream. Bale's touch, technique, crossing and shooting ability (and more) are simply way beyond Seamus' and probably always will be.
Somebody suggested the other day that Tottenham wouldn't buy Pienaar because they had a similar but better (!) player in Modric. I could barely believe what I was reading, but I'm afraid it can go both ways. Coleman's impact at Goodison vs Spurs notwithstanding, If Seamus was as good as Bale in some of these basic attributes, then he never would have gone to Blackpool.
I guess I'll just have to keep saying it, Seamus will not make a winger or midfielder, he's not a skilful enough footballer.
Seamus Coleman, picked up from the Irish league for around £250k.
This in itself proves nothing, but it is indicative that these are two very different footballers. To suggest Coleman is 'as good' as Bale is to dream. Bale's touch, technique, crossing and shooting ability (and more) are simply way beyond Seamus' and probably always will be.
Somebody suggested the other day that Tottenham wouldn't buy Pienaar because they had a similar but better (!) player in Modric. I could barely believe what I was reading, but I'm afraid it can go both ways. Coleman's impact at Goodison vs Spurs notwithstanding, If Seamus was as good as Bale in some of these basic attributes, then he never would have gone to Blackpool.
I guess I'll just have to keep saying it, Seamus will not make a winger or midfielder, he's not a skilful enough footballer.
Sorry, just spotted this:
"(the Jags/Heitinga combination is TOO SMALL to be considered, so let's us all forget it)"
What nonsense. This should, nay MUST, be our first choice centre back pairing next season when Heitinga and Fellaini are both fit. There may be the odd game, Stoke, Blackburn and maybe Chelsea (if Drogba's still there) where we'd want someone bigger, otherwise it isn't going to matter much, Fellaini's at least 6'4 remember. And anyway, they're not that small, and they're allowed to jump.
"(the Jags/Heitinga combination is TOO SMALL to be considered, so let's us all forget it)"
What nonsense. This should, nay MUST, be our first choice centre back pairing next season when Heitinga and Fellaini are both fit. There may be the odd game, Stoke, Blackburn and maybe Chelsea (if Drogba's still there) where we'd want someone bigger, otherwise it isn't going to matter much, Fellaini's at least 6'4 remember. And anyway, they're not that small, and they're allowed to jump.
I agree, Mike. You play your best players regardless of size. Heitinga and Jagielka are our best CB combination without question. Their size is their weakness but do we really think Distin, Yobo, Senderos, Duffy or anyone else is better fit for the position?
Mike Alison, how do you know this? Seamus will never be as good as Bale? You will eat your words. At least you acknowledge that the cost of player is not necessarily a reflection of his ability.
How do I know this? Because I've seen them play!
I would love to be wrong, and would happily eat the words, as they would mean we had a serious, top class talent on our hands. My breath will not be held though.
I would love to be wrong, and would happily eat the words, as they would mean we had a serious, top class talent on our hands. My breath will not be held though.
@Tom Neeson.
Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt!
Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt!
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1 Posted 21/04/2010 at 20:32:53
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Or... yet another Coleman Thread!!!
The merits of Seamus on the right wing have been discussed at length. Where were you?