More racist venom from you James. Time to take a look in the mirror, you're embarrassing yourself.

"Fuck the Deutchers. England's better."

Words fail me. Except 'four' and 'one'.

Its not 'racist' though is it? Why are people so keen to throw that word around carelessly?

I think they love to feel like they've taken a moral high ground by finding someone to feel superior to. Look in the mirror yourself Brendan.

And not that I want to defend that England team, and especially not the useless manager, but here's some more words for you: 'over', 'the' and 'line'. Actually you can have 'two' and 'all' as well while I'm at it, and I'll round off with 'Germans', 'were' and 'rocked'.

It reminded me of Duncan Ferguson's equaliser against Villarreal, where an inferior team had actually pulled level and may have become the most likely to go on and win due to the swing in confidence and momentum. Even with the goal disallowed we became the better team for a very long spell of the match, as the possession stats showed.

Here's another 2 for you Mike - 'clutching' and 'straws'.

You may not be aware that James has been calling Irish people 'gypos' elsewhere on this site, hence my accusation.

Brendan. I'm quite sure you have never agreed with a word I've said on this site.

Not true Andy. Like most people, I tend to post less when in agreement than when not. What is your point?

Sorry, Brendan something just went wrong so I'll continue. But, I'm with you on this. there is nothing racist in hoping that over paid , over hyped and under talented players get their comeuppance. England were , gutless and talentless. I feel very disappointed for the few players who gave their all. but what is wrong with Wayne Rooney? What is it about it about England that make them so hard to support?

Andy - my view on it, and I've said it before on here, is that they are driven by media/tabloid hype to believe that they are a lot better than they actually are. A bit like the RS really.This is automatically followed by huge disappointment, when they inevitably get knocked out of major tournaments. Maybe there is more to it than that, but surely it must at least play a major part.

GET A ROOM YOU TWO.

James, I said it before the game, Germany to beat Engerland and they did, enough said.

Where did he call Irish people gypos?

Article entitled 'It's Business Time'. Post 18 onwards.

Whoops. Oh well. I took a shot, what the heck.

I root for England. Always have. With all the vicious, mean-spirited pasting they've been taking in here, thought I'd try one in their favor.

The Germans took better care of their opportunities, certainly an indicator of a good team and congratulations to them.

And congratulations to whoever takes over coaching England's team after someone wakes up grandpa and gives him his plane ticket home.

Brendan (4) - "You may not be aware that James has been calling Irish people 'gypos' ".

So Snatch wasn't a documentary?

To be fair to James, it isn't racist to call people "sausage-eaters" It is a fact as sausage is one of the most popular foods in Germany.

It is also not racist to call Steven Gerard an over-rated miserable slightly above average Premier League midfielder who can not perform on the world stage.

So you still think we are all 'gypos' James?

Your quote, in case you'd forgotten:

"So you plastic paddies knock off the pretend offense about Gypos. It means your Irish. Who don't like it, can fuck off."

Along with "the sausage-eaters will be on a flight home this time tomorrow", and "Fuck the Deutchers".

Have you ever thought of getting a job with a British tabloid newspaper? With that sort of inflammatory language and those sort of xenophobic viewpoints you would fit in very well.

Isn't Flynn an Irish name? As they used to say on Jerry Springer, "Denial is not just a river in Egypt, girlfriend."

Brendan - What's with this Gypos? I don't give a shit about Pikeys, Gypos or any other name they might be called.

I never even heard these expressions until I saw Snatch and my impression from that was these folk were formidable and to be respected. Feared even, if provoked.

In fact, there wasn't even a scene showing the pikeys offended by that term. Now someone in here called someone a Gypo or Pikey or whatever and I thought, "Hey that's the term used in that movie".

Then the response from you or whomever. So I jumped in for fun. You took a run at me for doing so and I let it be because I asked for it with my posting. Which was the whole idea.

Now here you are days later bringing it up again as support for a claim I'm racist for calling Germans sausage eaters and Deutchers. You ever hear of Pig Day? A day of celebration in Germany. And they call THEMSELVES Deutsch. All I did was mis-spell it.

And exactly what is white people to white people racism? I heard about the fight racism program in European football. Is that what was meant? Roy Keane having potatoes thrown at him to anti-Irish chants sung to the tune of Danny Boy. Haha. Giant pictures of drunken leprechauns passed out in church being waved in the crowd of racist whites? Oh hoho.

Why don't we stop wasting that so-sensitive irish soul of yours on such nonsense and put it to good use. How's about going into several recent threads here and taking a run at all those who tore the English team apart in the most personal, vicious, cruel, mean-spirited manner. There's likely any number of those players with Celtic blood in their veins. They'de surely appreciate any show of support.

Come on, take up their side. For which, I pledge to always first consider your delicate sensibilities before I post anything here.

OK James. At least we now have some sort of explanation, albeit a couple of days after it was requested from you.

I have never seen this movie (if that's what it is) 'Snatch', but you seem to use it as a reference point as to when the term 'pikey' or 'gypo' is used:

"I never even heard these expressions until I saw Snatch." "In fact, there wasn't even a scene showing the pikeys offended by that term. Now someone in here called someone a Gypo or Pikey or whatever and I thought, "Hey that's the term used in that movie" ".

Now if you are using a movie script to determine whether or not a term can be used in normal everyday dialogue, you are only guilty of gross naivety, which is certainly preferable to racism or xenophobia. What you don't seem to realise, is that either of those terms are grossly offensive both to Irish people in general, and to those people to whom they directly refer; i.e. the travelling community. If you were to use such terms in Ireland in the workplace, you would soon find yourself looking for another job. Presumably the same applies in Britain, although I can't say for sure. Just to make it absolutely clear to you, it is the equivalent of calling a black person a nigger. You (hopefully) wouldn't do that in the good ole US of A now would you?

It's not a question of 'delicate sensibilities' or PC. When the comment was first made, I actually let it go because people before me had already made the point. Also, if someone makes a one-off throwaway comment, I would be inclined not to let it bother me. However, your passionate defence of making such comments, and historical justification for doing so, is a different matter altogether. Now it seems that it was down to a movie you saw. Try and engage your brain and make sure you know what you are talking about, before you stray on to that sort of territory again, James.

I still think your language about the Germans was unnecessarily inflammatory. Why bother being borderline offensive?

Finally, I think I've wound up Dave Wilson enough, without "taking a run at all those who tore the English team apart in the most personal, vicious, cruel, mean-spirited manner," as you suggest I should. I don't want to intrude any more on their private grief. So I'll leave it there, thank you very much.

Fairly said.

Hear hear, Brendan. I too have had enough of the derogatory comments aimed at the Irish that appear from time to time on this site. I was castigated 12 months ago for commenting when someone referred to Stephen Hunt as a 'gypo'. Now I'm not an advocate of the player by any means but let's leave the racist terms out of it... that's not being PC or overly sensitive, just plain respectful.

As for James Flynn... I guess its time to wind your neck in. If you want to learn 'English', I suggest you read Dickens and not Guy Richie!!!!!

"Andy – my view on it, and I've said it before on here, is that they are driven by media/tabloid hype to believe that they are a lot better than they actually are"

I just think that's such an easy answer, and a cop out. It doesn't explain why the same players, playing against the same players, do much better in, for example, the Champions League. England's history in the World Cup is much more accurately characterised by good play, showing they can compete, but suffering close defeats (often penalties), unlucky (or just plain bad) refereeing decisions, and a tendency to lose to the eventual winners. I can go through each tournament individually if you'd like, but if you think about it you won't need me to.

This time was different. The players, most of them, were still good enough, as good as anyone else has got, but for some reason sluggish, demotivated, and pedestrian. The team was also set up in an appalling way which massively hindered them. The manager's job is to get the best out his players, maximise their strengths and minimise their weaknesses. Capello failed in every department and we got the worst England team in a World Cup in my memory. However, just because we were bad and deserved to go out this time (and even then we might have got away with it but for another appalling decision) doesn't mean that history can be re-written and that was the case on all the other occasions.

Great, another country heard from. OK, Micky Come-Lately, who the fuck are you?

I said what I said, Brendan said his piece and it's done. What in any way interesting have you added here? That's correct. Nothing.

"wind your neck in. If you want to learn 'English' I suggest you read Dickens". Are all the screws loose in your head? Dickens??? Wind your neck out Tiny Tim and take a good look around. We're a decade into the 21st century.

"I just think that's such an easy answer, and a cop out. It doesn't explain why the same players, playing against the same players, do much better in, for example, the Champions League."

I went on to say that maybe there is more to it than that, which you seemed to have overlooked.

I am not an England fan, therefore it is not my place to offer a detailed analysis of why this oh so predictable failure has happened again. What I would say though, is that when looking at them from an outsider's perspective, you don't get caught up in all the media nonsense which the English public cannot but help do. Therefore it is much easy for someone in my position to see that they are not good enough. I include watching the game and media punditry on a non-English TV channel as part of that. I mean FFS, the likes of Keegan and Redknapp have lost all credibility after their punditry. " We're a much better side than the Germans". Oh yeah Harry, pull the other one!

If you really want a good reason for this failure, this by Brian Williams on another thread, hits the nail on the head:

"The reason why these England superstars shine every week in the "greatest league in the world?" Each one of them (without exception) is supported, within their respective teams, by quality foreign players.

Take those quality foreign players out of the equation and you're left with some "good" players and the odd (and I mean odd) very good players (although the ONE very good player in that England team didn't turn up for any of the four games)."

Exactly.

"We're a decade into the 21st century......." Precisely. So leave your racist shit in that 20th century bin next to your computer!!!

"I am not an England fan, therefore it is not my place to offer a detailed analysis of why this oh so predictable failure has happened again."

I think it puts you in a much better position to analyse the England team than us fans actually. I saw the Brian Williams quote on that thread earlier today, and I'm not sure I agree with it. For a start, Gerrard is the one that carries the 'quality foreign players' at Liverpool. That includes Kuyt from the successful Dutch team, Mascherano from Argentina, it did include Xavi Alonso and I'm not going to include Torres because he does pretty well as well.

I stay well away from tabloids, and I rarely watch the punditry on the TV, so I think I'm immune from 'getting caught up in the hype' which I agree is true of many England fans, but I also disagree with the idea that our players aren't good enough. I don't think the Spanish and Italian clubs who so covet Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard don't think they're good enough, especially when they get knocked out of the Champions League by them.

I'm struggling to keep this as short as I'd like so I'll just ask your opinion, as a non-England fan, of Capello's perormance in the tournament. Three issues in particular:

1. Gerrard on the left, again and again and again, thus shackling and restricting one of the best players around (did I just say that on this website...?)

2. No Joe Cole, and even when he did come on, not on the left where he's played so well for England in the past (including previous World Cups).

3. Failure to change, adapt or try different things, including the non-selection of Walcott, Johnson or both who would have been potentially dangerous 'impact' subs.

It's my opinion that if there's anything approaching a simple answer to why England were so bad it lies with the man who gets £6M a year to make terrible decisions even 12-year-old girls know are incorrect.

Look at the Dutch team that won today. Tell me its not full of players supported by quality non-Dutch players in their club sides.

I wouldn't offer an analysis/solution to England's woes.
One thing is clear tho Mike,they conceded 4 goals,none of which could be laid at Capello's door or indeed the absence of Joe Cole or an out of position Gerrard.

Mike, as a german fan Des hit the nail on the head with four good goals scored against a defence that look like it had never met never mind played football together. The formation Capello was playing before he got a flight home was terrible; how many times did Rooney have to track back to the halfway line to get the ball? Gerrard isn't a winger, Barry isn't an international, Johnson isn't a defender (more a winger by the lack of ability to track back). They scrpaed through the group stage by the skin of their teeth but it was just a matter of time before they were shown up by a better footballing team.

The german team's average age is 24, that means they have at least another 2 or 3 world cups in them and will improve, the national side has players ready to retire from internationals or who should be pushed into retirement. The underlying problem is that there are teams out there better prepared and with far superior and more skilful players.

Meaning I am a german fan not Des!

OK Mike if you want my opinion here it is.

Point 1 - Gerrard on the left. Agree - Less effective than his club role (ssshhhh, did I just say that? This doesn't feel right already, giving advice to England/RS as to his best position)

Point 2 - No Joe Cole - Agree. Possibly your most creative player, benched.

Point 3 - Possibly. No, in fact agree. You should have had fast young attacking options available, as the Germans had. I can see why he didn't pick Walcott though, as his final ball is often lacking. Personally I would have persisted with Lennon: I thought he was far from the worst player against USA .

So right on all 3 counts. Capello made mistakes, of course he did. But I don't think you can put that down as the sole reason for your performance in the tournament. The defending against Germany was akin to that of a pub team, and you'll know those are not my words - they have been used by many others. Was that Capello's fault? Truth is I don't know. But surely a defender with the reputation of Terry should have done much better whatever the manager told him to do. The England players to me seem to take their places for granted; they believe their own reputations,and there is a cosiness seemingly there despite all the stuff we hear about Capello being more ruthless and a disciplinarian. What happened to the threat to only pick players on form?

The truth is that England qualified easily, playing well, just as they had done under Eriksson for the 2006 tournament. Something happens when they get to the big stage. This is where I feel the media-driven level of expectancy thing comes in. There has to be something psychologically that goes wrong. In cases of other nations, players seem to raise their game when they play for their country. Look at someone like Robinho, who seemed disinterested at Man City yet is fantastic for Brazil. England players seem to do the opposite.

You mention Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard being coveted, but what about the rest of them? For me the Premier League and the England team are not 2 inter-dependant entities. The league continues to flourish because the huge amounts of money brings in the foreign players - to the detriment of the England team. I mean England struggle to have a top class goalkeeper, that says a lot.

As usual the answer is probably the combination of a lot of different factors. I don't think you would be advised to pin it down to one thing, even though Capello's shortcomings might be obvious. I still think the hype/expectation thing is the biggest factor though. I read a quote from Miroslav Klose yesterday in which he said that the limit of Germany's expectation was the semi-finals, and that now they had a good chance of achieving that. We are talking about Germany here; 3-times world cup winners and 4-times runners-up. That says it all for me.

The original post was not racist.

As alluded to by others, there seems to be a protointellectual game run nowadays to be the first to play the race card and increase the vituperation.

It's very lame.

Oh yeah. I was thinking to myself before posting "I must be the first one to play the race card, so that I can be first in the protointellectual game and then I can claim the moral high ground and feel superior."

What a load of protointellectual bollocks.

As I explained earlier, it was because of postings elsewhere on this site by the poster which I and others considered to be racist.

It seems to be you who is increasing the vituperation and playing the protointellectual game. Very lame indeed.

I agree there is a mentality problem. I don't have a right lot to add but I will answer your direct question:

"What about the rest of them?"

I'm pretty sure Terry, Ferdinand and Ashley Cole are pretty coveted around Europe, and we may be a matter of weeks away from conclusive proof that Joe Cole is also. Remember that English players such as Woodgate and Steve McManaman have signed for the world's biggest club at a time when they were far from being guaranteed a place in England's starting XI.

This debate is taking place on an other thread now really (Everton and England), but the current Dutch squad has plenty of players who aren't coveted, in fact as does that Argentinian squad where Jonas Gutierrez gets in the starting XI. Brazil are looking like world beaters with two Man City rejects in the first choice XI.