The Mail Bag
Everton and England
Comments (142)
I have just watched that ridiculous England match and the the deluded comments of the players post match. The only person who sounded objective was Milner, who has only just joined the circus.
I sense that Jags & Leighton have dodged a massive bullet by not being part of that fiasco. Fancy being influenced by Terry, Lampard, Cole, etc??
Hopefully our current players can form some part of a better future for a national team and a successful Everton team? I sense a tipping point for the pampered prima donna European approach.
Did you see the different approach between the Italian, French, England teams and the USA, African, Asian teams? There may have been a difference between skill, stature, and wage but there was a massive difference between desire and patriotism...
I hate everything that England stands for these days but still retain great memories of Reid, Lineker, Steven, Stevens, Bracewell all appearing in the same team. Seems so long ago now...
What for the future after today?
Neil Patten, Posted 27/06/2010 at 22:56:56
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For too long have the English media and fans correlated the quality of the EPL with that of the national team. The best players on the majority of the domestic club teams are foreign, and it would be a pretty boring and low quality league if it weren't for the influx of foreign players.
A sense of entitlement has seen to overtaken the English players on the national side (do the French come to mind?), who have forgotten that it takes fortitude and desire to succeed... so much for the overrated Lampard, Terry, Barry, etc. I would rather watch a squad that will leave it all out there on the pitch, hopefully the new generation will be humbled and gain from their failures.
A sense of entitlement has seen to overtaken the English players on the national side (do the French come to mind?), who have forgotten that it takes fortitude and desire to succeed... so much for the overrated Lampard, Terry, Barry, etc. I would rather watch a squad that will leave it all out there on the pitch, hopefully the new generation will be humbled and gain from their failures.
Bottom line is at international level we cant cut it - and havent been able to do it for years.
The team play like individuals, I feel that the success and lifestyle they enjoy at club level increasingly makes playing for England feel like a chore rather than an honour and they cant cope with it when they have to deliver on the expectations of a nation.
I watched Chile the other night against Spain and - OK they were admittedly dirty - but even when down to 10 men the way they knocked it around put us to shame.
We dont have the ability, belief or real desire IMO. Too many of the players, for me, want a world cup medal for their trophy cabinet for personal aggrandisment rather than proof they were part of the best team in the world - which they will never be until they get their priorities right and start putting their country back on the same footing as their clubs.
But what do I know.
The team play like individuals, I feel that the success and lifestyle they enjoy at club level increasingly makes playing for England feel like a chore rather than an honour and they cant cope with it when they have to deliver on the expectations of a nation.
I watched Chile the other night against Spain and - OK they were admittedly dirty - but even when down to 10 men the way they knocked it around put us to shame.
We dont have the ability, belief or real desire IMO. Too many of the players, for me, want a world cup medal for their trophy cabinet for personal aggrandisment rather than proof they were part of the best team in the world - which they will never be until they get their priorities right and start putting their country back on the same footing as their clubs.
But what do I know.
One thing i noticed was the Spanish for example had 7 maybe 8 players from there top 2 teams , we had 3 from our top 2, the Italians not sure but Inter didn't have an Italian on the field when they won the Champions League. Going back to your comment about 5 Everton players in the England team i bet there was a few Liverpool players in that as well so the top 2 teams made up the bulk of the starting 11.
It is obvious that young players in this country are stifled by cheap foreign imports it is also apparent that clubs like Chelski have vast reserves of youngsters [ 60 + i heard ]yet never bring anyone through.
Who are the next crop ?? Rodwell , Wiltshire, Adam Johnson , Joe Hart ,Smalling, i'm struggling now and i thought my knowledge wasn't bad.
I would also point to our booze and birds culture which almost certainly accounts for 50% of potential players turning their backs on football.
It is obvious that young players in this country are stifled by cheap foreign imports it is also apparent that clubs like Chelski have vast reserves of youngsters [ 60 + i heard ]yet never bring anyone through.
Who are the next crop ?? Rodwell , Wiltshire, Adam Johnson , Joe Hart ,Smalling, i'm struggling now and i thought my knowledge wasn't bad.
I would also point to our booze and birds culture which almost certainly accounts for 50% of potential players turning their backs on football.
Slightly off piste; I've just heard journalist on TV who stated that, Gerrard, Rooney & Lampard earn more than the German team put together, and that England lacked hunger. Not too sure about that but it's an interesting point.
On the plus side, the next time some idiot derides David Moyes for playing a “defensive” 4-5-1 formation and suggests that we should go for a “more attacking” 4-4-2, it’s going to give me great pleasure to use this game as an example to highlight just why that idea is so stupid.
Is it just me...or was the level of performance against Germany about the same level as the one against Slovenia....You know, the game that had pundits, the media and most England fans heralding a return to form?
The only difference for me in those two games, was the opponents...one puncished your mistakes the other didn't.
I keep hearing people asking how can it be fixed...there's a simple answer to that...er..better players throughout the team. You don't have them and never will.
It's a bit sad that everytime England inevitably crash out of a tournament that there's a wave of national self-destruction, all due to the fact that your expectations levels are way about your ability.
The ultimate rose tinted specs..
The only difference for me in those two games, was the opponents...one puncished your mistakes the other didn't.
I keep hearing people asking how can it be fixed...there's a simple answer to that...er..better players throughout the team. You don't have them and never will.
It's a bit sad that everytime England inevitably crash out of a tournament that there's a wave of national self-destruction, all due to the fact that your expectations levels are way about your ability.
The ultimate rose tinted specs..
An interesting point about hunger versus results. For decades kids from the favelas in Brazil have played football bare footed and escaped that lifestyle by signing for big teams and prospectively to bigger and better things. Watching the non football footage about the brilliant coaching which has been provided in Africa and again you can see kids who are hungry to learn and play the game and as pointed out by one of the coaches not a mobile phone or poncey car anywhere to be seen. Expect to see more talented footballers emerge from Africa.
The handed on a plate generation in Britain fall for their own non-deserved legends and think they only have to turn up to win. Match that with the same old regime and lack of ideas with successive national coaches who themselves are overpaid and you are doomed to repeat ad nauseum the same mistakes.
The handed on a plate generation in Britain fall for their own non-deserved legends and think they only have to turn up to win. Match that with the same old regime and lack of ideas with successive national coaches who themselves are overpaid and you are doomed to repeat ad nauseum the same mistakes.
The rerason we're out of the World Cup? We're just not that good.
The reason why these England superstars shine every week in the "greatest league in the world?" Each one of them (without exception) is supported, within their respective teams, by quality foreign players.
Take those quality foreign players out of the equation and you're left with some "good" players and the odd (and I mean odd) very good players (although the ONE very good player in that England team didn't turn up for any of the four games).
Add to that the fact that the '66 win was a few generations ago, and was accomplished at home with lots of luck and help, and the penny SHOULD be dropping that we're no more than an average (good on the odd occasion) team who's technical abiltiy and individual skill levels are inferior to MOST of the teams in the tournament.
Even Algeria (no offence) looked technically better than England.
Let's ignore the media hype in future (yeh right) and have realistic ambitions, as in. "If we get to the knockout stage we've done well".
Accept it, the England football team are just not that good.
I have to say I've got over the disappointment of yesterday far far quicker than I ever have an Everton defeat...and always will!
The reason why these England superstars shine every week in the "greatest league in the world?" Each one of them (without exception) is supported, within their respective teams, by quality foreign players.
Take those quality foreign players out of the equation and you're left with some "good" players and the odd (and I mean odd) very good players (although the ONE very good player in that England team didn't turn up for any of the four games).
Add to that the fact that the '66 win was a few generations ago, and was accomplished at home with lots of luck and help, and the penny SHOULD be dropping that we're no more than an average (good on the odd occasion) team who's technical abiltiy and individual skill levels are inferior to MOST of the teams in the tournament.
Even Algeria (no offence) looked technically better than England.
Let's ignore the media hype in future (yeh right) and have realistic ambitions, as in. "If we get to the knockout stage we've done well".
Accept it, the England football team are just not that good.
I have to say I've got over the disappointment of yesterday far far quicker than I ever have an Everton defeat...and always will!
"The reason why these England superstars shine every week in the "greatest league in the world?" Each one of them (without exception) is supported, within their respective teams, by quality foreign players."
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Spot on Brian.
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Spot on Brian.
When he suggests that England's tactics were at fault, Aiden Doyle
(#6) is on the right track. From the kick off, It was plain to see that Gerrard on the left and Milner on the right were under instruction to hug the touch lines. By doing that, they occupied space that A Cole and Johnson might normally exploit.
There is no point in having two very quick attack-minded backs if they kept running into the rear of team mates. Only when it was too late did Gerrard come inside allowing Cole to push forward. Milner stuck to his wing causing Jonson's runs to be stymied. It was most disapointing that neither players nor Capello sussed it out.
The after match comments by Lampard, beggered belief. The only player who made any sense was Joe Cole.
The manager will take the flak, and so he should, taking Ferdinand, King, and Barry was a gamble that did not make sense. Anybody's Granny would have been faster than the man given the job of protecting the back four. I am releived, that Leighton and Phil Jagielka had no part in that circus.
Wrong Tactics and wrong players.
Most of the better teams now play the favoured 4-2-3-1 formation which turns into a solid 4-5-1 without the ball. Germany showed how a skilfull fluid 3 men supporting the lone striker can be dangerous. Should've had Parker instead of Barry. Bent instead of Heskey, where the hell was Adam Johnson? King, Upson Carragher? what a joke, 3 right wingers and no left winger! Capello ballsed it up before they even got there, Never did the guy know what his best team was. How come every England manager fails to realise that Lampard & Gerrard can't play together?
Most of the better teams now play the favoured 4-2-3-1 formation which turns into a solid 4-5-1 without the ball. Germany showed how a skilfull fluid 3 men supporting the lone striker can be dangerous. Should've had Parker instead of Barry. Bent instead of Heskey, where the hell was Adam Johnson? King, Upson Carragher? what a joke, 3 right wingers and no left winger! Capello ballsed it up before they even got there, Never did the guy know what his best team was. How come every England manager fails to realise that Lampard & Gerrard can't play together?
Aidan - so presumably because the England team failed playing 4-4-2 that proves that this formation is wrong and that anyone thinking 4-4-2 is a good formation is stupid then ? I think the stupidity is with you. The correct formation to play - whether it's 5-3-2,4-4-2,4-3-3 or 4-5-1 or whatever - is surely the best formation that suits the players that you have available.
There have been some teams that have gained success at this World Cup by playing 2 strikers, others by playing one striker with a midfield player playing just behind. If 4-5-1 works well then the lone striker has to be supported by the midfield or else he becomes isolated.
As regards criticism of David Moyes - he sticks rigiidly to 4-5-1 in the same way that Capello sticks rigidly to 4-4-2. I have criticised Moyes in the past, because just like Capello he seems to stubbornly stick to the same formation - even when it is clear that it's not working.
There have been some teams that have gained success at this World Cup by playing 2 strikers, others by playing one striker with a midfield player playing just behind. If 4-5-1 works well then the lone striker has to be supported by the midfield or else he becomes isolated.
As regards criticism of David Moyes - he sticks rigiidly to 4-5-1 in the same way that Capello sticks rigidly to 4-4-2. I have criticised Moyes in the past, because just like Capello he seems to stubbornly stick to the same formation - even when it is clear that it's not working.
Having predicted we'd be knocked out in the last 16, my only disappointment is the actual level of dross we revealed in every game. We were bloated, uninspired, immobile dullards. Too much rubbish to comment on any specifics.
In 1953 & 54 England shipped 13 goals in 2 games against the magnificent Magyars of Puskas, Hidegkuti and Boszik. Their mobile, intelligent, skillful brand of total football was 20 years ahead of the Dutch and had England chasing shadows.
One would think by now England would have learned. We patently have not. Sadly, the only England manager that brought real revolution to the role was Glen Hoddle. And in 1998 under Hoddle we had, IMHO, our best chance of spanning the divide and even winning the WC, had Beckham not been sent off.
I am frankly tired of watching England play like Wolves or Stoke. It is time for a revolution at the top and in the team. Of this current squad the only ones I'd definitely retain are A Cole, Defoe, Crouch & (possibly) Rooney. It is time for England to show the courage & vision of the Germans. Time for youth, energy, skill and bravery.
Step forward Jack Rodwell, Jack Wilshire, Adam Johnson, Joe Hart, Victor Moses, Kieran Gibbs, Phil Jagielka, Ben Watson and more.
Sometimes things are so broke that you really have to throw it away and start again. That is England. We are, yet again, rubbish where it counts. It is en enduring embarrassment that is no longer acceptable.
I like Capello as a guy, but he's part of the problem, not the solution. Energy, verve, panache, intelligence, skill. Just like Argentina, Mexico, Chile, Paraguay, Brazil. As Maradona cutely observed this week, football's wallet may reside in Europe, but it's soul is unmistakably in South America.
Let the revolution begin.
In 1953 & 54 England shipped 13 goals in 2 games against the magnificent Magyars of Puskas, Hidegkuti and Boszik. Their mobile, intelligent, skillful brand of total football was 20 years ahead of the Dutch and had England chasing shadows.
One would think by now England would have learned. We patently have not. Sadly, the only England manager that brought real revolution to the role was Glen Hoddle. And in 1998 under Hoddle we had, IMHO, our best chance of spanning the divide and even winning the WC, had Beckham not been sent off.
I am frankly tired of watching England play like Wolves or Stoke. It is time for a revolution at the top and in the team. Of this current squad the only ones I'd definitely retain are A Cole, Defoe, Crouch & (possibly) Rooney. It is time for England to show the courage & vision of the Germans. Time for youth, energy, skill and bravery.
Step forward Jack Rodwell, Jack Wilshire, Adam Johnson, Joe Hart, Victor Moses, Kieran Gibbs, Phil Jagielka, Ben Watson and more.
Sometimes things are so broke that you really have to throw it away and start again. That is England. We are, yet again, rubbish where it counts. It is en enduring embarrassment that is no longer acceptable.
I like Capello as a guy, but he's part of the problem, not the solution. Energy, verve, panache, intelligence, skill. Just like Argentina, Mexico, Chile, Paraguay, Brazil. As Maradona cutely observed this week, football's wallet may reside in Europe, but it's soul is unmistakably in South America.
Let the revolution begin.
England have top quality players, what they don't have is a top quality team. This goes back to the days of stories about pricks like Gary Neville refusing to speak to scousers and crap like that.
Any team of good sound premiership players performing as a unit should be able to compete on the big stage. Bring in Hart, Richards, Rodwell and Johnson now and let them develop as a unit and in 4 years time with Milner, Rooney and others that will develop along the way things might (!) go better. The key is to get Stuart Pearce in now and let him bring through the younger players that he has been monitoring and scouting for some time now
Any team of good sound premiership players performing as a unit should be able to compete on the big stage. Bring in Hart, Richards, Rodwell and Johnson now and let them develop as a unit and in 4 years time with Milner, Rooney and others that will develop along the way things might (!) go better. The key is to get Stuart Pearce in now and let him bring through the younger players that he has been monitoring and scouting for some time now
Michael Brien - as one of yesterday's commentators astutely observed, whilst England line up like statues in straight lines, the German play football between those lines.
None of that England team play that formation for their clubs. So we play 4-4-2 because...? perhaps because Capello is used to it?
Some teams even play with 3 up front. But they also play with inteligence & movement that adds value all over the pitch when necessary.
4-4-2 simply adds yet another layer of stupidity and rigidity to the most stupid & rigid team in the finals. We were shocking. End of.
None of that England team play that formation for their clubs. So we play 4-4-2 because...? perhaps because Capello is used to it?
Some teams even play with 3 up front. But they also play with inteligence & movement that adds value all over the pitch when necessary.
4-4-2 simply adds yet another layer of stupidity and rigidity to the most stupid & rigid team in the finals. We were shocking. End of.
England lost due to their reliance on a team which will never work and is in desperate need of a rebuild.
Terry is too slow, Lampard and Gerrard will never work together in a 4 man midfield and both the wings need serious attention. David James may have gotten away with his performance yesterday however even the #1 keeper spot needs sorting.
In the absence of any better, Johnson and A Cole will stay in the team with either Lampard or Gerrard in the 4-4-2 (both in a 4-5-1!!)
The biggest question to answer is what to do about Rooney? Can anyone remember him getting on the plane? He just didn't turn up for the tournament and that is not acceptable.
Was he injured or unfit? If so, play someone else who can do the job.
For me, two players who have played themselves out of the england team are Heskey and Terry.
Terry is too slow, Lampard and Gerrard will never work together in a 4 man midfield and both the wings need serious attention. David James may have gotten away with his performance yesterday however even the #1 keeper spot needs sorting.
In the absence of any better, Johnson and A Cole will stay in the team with either Lampard or Gerrard in the 4-4-2 (both in a 4-5-1!!)
The biggest question to answer is what to do about Rooney? Can anyone remember him getting on the plane? He just didn't turn up for the tournament and that is not acceptable.
Was he injured or unfit? If so, play someone else who can do the job.
For me, two players who have played themselves out of the england team are Heskey and Terry.
Rarely seen so deluded fans and media as the England’s, even now when you read the responses you can only shake head - “likes for likes we are better”, “expose their awful left back” etc. It’s like errrr better than who?!?!?
Let’s start with the midfield – Lampard and Gerrard are nothing more than long-range specialists lacking tactical discipline, you won’t see them making defense splitting passes or bossing the midfield but you will see them scoring wonder goals. In their club teams they are relieved from any defensive or tactical constraints and their mistakes are overlooked while their good actions are overhyped, wherever Gerrard had Mascherano and Alonso behind, Lampard had Essien and Mikel, while in England they have Barry. This season when Alonso was sold and Gerrard had to take more duties he struggled badly and many Liverpool supporters were calling for his head.
Barry as holding midfielder is simply not in the league of the above players (maybe bar Mikel) and the lack of positioning and tactical discipline of the English midfield was badly exposed. A lot have been made of Joe Cole and he was pinpointed as an England savior, yet while he was on the field (less than a full game admittedely)I can’t reckon any outstanding actions, added danger, assists, goals… It's not that Capello was the only one that had him overlooked Ancelotti didn’t trust him enough either and that’s 100 times more telling than some random journo or fan’s opinion.
Next is the defense - Terry is supposedly world class defender yet he is very slow and his positioning is awful he was all over the field but Moyes and Everton identified that some months ago when he was targeted and tested with long balls and Saha badly exposed him but for the media he is the best in the business. There is a reason for Upson spending his career at Forest, Palace, Reading, Birmingham and West Ham. About the tactical and positional vulnerability of Johnson and Cole has been debated for ages and I don’t even want to go into the GK question.
That leaves us with the attacking threat of Heskey, which I think was the only mistake of Capello, Rooney and Defoe. IMO Rooney is the only world class player in England squad but for which ever reason it just didn’t work out for him and being out of the equation had disaster written all over the English performance at this World Cup.
Alan - the point I was making was that you should play the formation that suits the players that you have a) in your squad or b) available to you taking into account injuries/suspensions/lack of form. I don't believe that just because England lost playing 4-4-2 it means that this formation is obsolete. It is successful for other teams. England had players playing out of position and a back four that looked in trouble every time the opposition attacked.
Bobby Robson to his great credit, was prepared to change his formation and his tactics back in 1986, when it was clear that this was needed. Capello stuck rigidly to his formation and tactics when it was clear that change was needed. Such a rigid and ultimately flawed approach is at the core of what was wrong with England. Capello couldn't adapt his team or his tactics.
On the game itself, we were outplayed for the first 20 minutes with the back four being shaky including Cole and Upson showing why he should never have been picked in the squad.
Then at 1-2 we were cheated by inept Uruguayans which could have been a big turning point. Instead we were left still chasing a tying goal by pushing men forward and paid the penalty.
The big picture, however, most people agree on is that Capello got it wrong and many players he selected were wrong. He also picked players who were not 100% fit which was an injustice to other capable players who were fit. Rooney seemed to be Capello's one big striking hope and if he was 100% fit then he was poor in every game.
Once Capello was given a lucrative new contract, he didn't give a monkey's about England's progression. A very bad move by the FA. On the game front again, Sepp Blatter should be fired along with the others at Fifa for not moving with the times when they had the opportunity back in March with extra goal line officials or technology to help inept partially blind officials.
We played badly in the warm-up games, the group games and this one which makes me angry that Capello wasn't able to get them motivated.
When England lost to Poland in '73, we had these inquests and it's been the same ever since. Since 1966, we've never reached a final of the World Cup or the Euros, we've tried coaches who were among the best in this country and abroad yet nothing has changed. The elite European teams of Germany, Holland, Italy, France, Spain have all reached and won finals whilst having less money and with their leagues embracing foreign players.
The only difference is our style of play, the national sides mentioned all play in the style of their domestic game, England does not. Since the '73 Poland game and the subsequent absence from two World Cup tournaments, our domestic style is not considered sophisticated enough to combat foreign opposition
It's a fallacy, we've never played our natural game at international level.
Jack Charlton took an Irish team consisting of players from the domestic leagues and ignored the "sophisticated" notion of world football playing to traditional strengths, his players were considered lesser quality than available to England but they frightened the life out of everyone they played but were sneered at by many pundits as "long-ball merchants".
The only difference is our style of play, the national sides mentioned all play in the style of their domestic game, England does not. Since the '73 Poland game and the subsequent absence from two World Cup tournaments, our domestic style is not considered sophisticated enough to combat foreign opposition
It's a fallacy, we've never played our natural game at international level.
Jack Charlton took an Irish team consisting of players from the domestic leagues and ignored the "sophisticated" notion of world football playing to traditional strengths, his players were considered lesser quality than available to England but they frightened the life out of everyone they played but were sneered at by many pundits as "long-ball merchants".
So, like a boxer who changes his natural stance to southpaw or a golfer who changes his tried and tested golf grip, we play these games with a disadvantage from the start. The irony is people still ask why can our players be good domestically but don't play the same for England? The answer is in the question.
Any comments blaming Capello I agree with. What good is a plan if the circumstances don't fit? That thinking is looking for trouble. No surprise trouble is what England found.
Plus, they seemed to run out of gas towards the end of the games; certainly against US and Germany. Gramps didn't even have the team fit to go for 90 minutes? A bigger sin then plans trumping circumstances.
Rooney. He must be injured and not talking. Although I'm still inclined to blame Capello. In my country's WC history, we've never had a true predator. Not one. Ever. And here I watch 3 games with Rooney running around mid-field. If US had him, I have to think we'd still be in the tournament. Cause he'd have been up-front, all the time.
Finally, I can't see why England wouldn't be producing football talent. Every four years England has a nice pool of talent to choose from. It's picking the right ones is all. Is it the FA's fault?
Well, they hired an ancient, foreign relic to coach the team. Really, in all of England there isn't one man to coach his own nation's team? I find that hard to believe. US has had native-born and raised coaches for years now. It's the same damn game wherever it's played. Name one of your own, England.
Anyhow, God Bless Em. Better luck in 2014, I say. I'll be rooting for Jolly Old once again. As long as they're not playing US or Mexico.
Plus, they seemed to run out of gas towards the end of the games; certainly against US and Germany. Gramps didn't even have the team fit to go for 90 minutes? A bigger sin then plans trumping circumstances.
Rooney. He must be injured and not talking. Although I'm still inclined to blame Capello. In my country's WC history, we've never had a true predator. Not one. Ever. And here I watch 3 games with Rooney running around mid-field. If US had him, I have to think we'd still be in the tournament. Cause he'd have been up-front, all the time.
Finally, I can't see why England wouldn't be producing football talent. Every four years England has a nice pool of talent to choose from. It's picking the right ones is all. Is it the FA's fault?
Well, they hired an ancient, foreign relic to coach the team. Really, in all of England there isn't one man to coach his own nation's team? I find that hard to believe. US has had native-born and raised coaches for years now. It's the same damn game wherever it's played. Name one of your own, England.
Anyhow, God Bless Em. Better luck in 2014, I say. I'll be rooting for Jolly Old once again. As long as they're not playing US or Mexico.
For me, the main reason that Cappello has failed as England manager probably goes back to when he was interviewed for the job in the first place... Someone should have picked up on the fact that he couldn't speak or understand basic English! Every pre/post match interview he has ever given he is seen to be asking the bloke next to him ..what the fucks he on about mate?
I am straining to understand him with the fucking telly turned up so what chance do the players have when he is screaming down the touchline in gobblygooch? And a million trumpets going off.
By the way, I am not sticking up for the players, they were fucking garbage and have now been shown up for what they are... fucking wank bubbles!! Tired my arse... give Beckham the job now!!!
I dont want any Everton players in the England team. My great pleasures Everton winning liverpool & England loosing. One happy man after yesterday.
I pretty well agree with most of these comments. There is I believe one more item to factor in; the fact that England is just about the only nation in Europe that does'nt have a mid winter break, a deficiency amply illustrated by the fact that all our guys looked totally shattered after the first fifteen minutes. It would also help if all teams were limited to a maximum 6 foreign players - and never mind what the human rights act says !
Michael Brian: "Bobby Robson to his great credit, was prepared to change his formation and his tactics back in 1986, when it was clear that this was needed."
It could well be my memory failing but weren't England on their way home when he was forced to bring in the Everton lads because of suspension/injury to Ray "The Crab" Wilkins and Bryan "Hic" Robson?
And, I'm wth Mr Madden... England have become, for me anyway, the Liverpool of international football.
The problem with England on all levels is an inherent conservatism and lack of humility. Our inability to open eyes & ears to see and hear what's gong on around us.
Some deluded fans go back to 1990 as some kind of golden dawn of which we were robbed. I remember vividly watching all our games in 1990 and being as pissed off about the stupid style of play we had then, as now. We played one god game, the semi, and lost. We were out passed and out played by both Belgium and Cameroon. Had Lineker not dived twice for pens it would all be very different.
Everything is wrong with the English game. The players, the structure, the premier league, 2 domestic cup competitions, the FA, the ridiculous £800m spent on Wembley!!! it's all nonsense. Germany, Italy, Argentina & Spain all play games around the country. We have great stadia everywhere, and yet we need to spend almost a billion pounds on one giant white elephant, whilst our coaching infrastructure and number of young players with real potential is pathetic.
It's the same reason why English people make the worst waiters & waitresses, whilst Aussies, Kiwis, Poles, Bosnians, French and Spanish people do it dilligently and with a smile on their face. Unless and until those in power can open up and fucking lighten up so the truth can come through, we have zero chance.
I forecast this exact demise before it all began. There is no satisfaction in doing so, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people actually thought we could actually go on and win the bloody thing!! If we want to understand what we need to do then it's quite simple:
Watch Messi, Muller, Ozil, Xavi, Hernandez, Robben, Alonso, Honda, Matsui, Cardozo and plenty more. They do things differently. They think, invent, move, pass.
Ruud Gullit once said that,if your colleagues move about and give you options then football is simple (assuming you can pass) but if they stand still then you look bad. is it not the most tragic of all endightments that almost 60 years after the Magyars, 40 years after the Dutch, 30 years after the Germans, the constant reminders from Brazil & Argentina, and the recent pre-eminence of Barcelona, that English football still just doesn't get it?
Unless there is root & branch reform you can set your clock for what will happen in 4 years' time. The pill, the one that says you are completely wrong and have to change everything, is just to big & too bitter for English football to swallow.
And there's the pity.
Some deluded fans go back to 1990 as some kind of golden dawn of which we were robbed. I remember vividly watching all our games in 1990 and being as pissed off about the stupid style of play we had then, as now. We played one god game, the semi, and lost. We were out passed and out played by both Belgium and Cameroon. Had Lineker not dived twice for pens it would all be very different.
Everything is wrong with the English game. The players, the structure, the premier league, 2 domestic cup competitions, the FA, the ridiculous £800m spent on Wembley!!! it's all nonsense. Germany, Italy, Argentina & Spain all play games around the country. We have great stadia everywhere, and yet we need to spend almost a billion pounds on one giant white elephant, whilst our coaching infrastructure and number of young players with real potential is pathetic.
It's the same reason why English people make the worst waiters & waitresses, whilst Aussies, Kiwis, Poles, Bosnians, French and Spanish people do it dilligently and with a smile on their face. Unless and until those in power can open up and fucking lighten up so the truth can come through, we have zero chance.
I forecast this exact demise before it all began. There is no satisfaction in doing so, but it never ceases to amaze me how many people actually thought we could actually go on and win the bloody thing!! If we want to understand what we need to do then it's quite simple:
Watch Messi, Muller, Ozil, Xavi, Hernandez, Robben, Alonso, Honda, Matsui, Cardozo and plenty more. They do things differently. They think, invent, move, pass.
Ruud Gullit once said that,if your colleagues move about and give you options then football is simple (assuming you can pass) but if they stand still then you look bad. is it not the most tragic of all endightments that almost 60 years after the Magyars, 40 years after the Dutch, 30 years after the Germans, the constant reminders from Brazil & Argentina, and the recent pre-eminence of Barcelona, that English football still just doesn't get it?
Unless there is root & branch reform you can set your clock for what will happen in 4 years' time. The pill, the one that says you are completely wrong and have to change everything, is just to big & too bitter for English football to swallow.
And there's the pity.
Hello Alan. I like the waiter analogy.
What about this for the Spine of the team Euro 2012:- Jagielka (CB), Baines (LB), Rodwell (attacking CM), Beckford (CF). Even throw in Dan Gosling (RB or RM) if recovered properly from his injury because at least he would stay in his position out wide instead of thinking he was bigger than the team, and try to play in the middle. They could do no worse than the spineless individuals over in South Africa.
What about this for the Spine of the team Euro 2012:- Jagielka (CB), Baines (LB), Rodwell (attacking CM), Beckford (CF). Even throw in Dan Gosling (RB or RM) if recovered properly from his injury because at least he would stay in his position out wide instead of thinking he was bigger than the team, and try to play in the middle. They could do no worse than the spineless individuals over in South Africa.
Phil — yes England were struggling and needed to beat Poland, which they did by 3-0 with Lineker scoring all the goals. However, at least Bobby Robson was prepared to change his tactics and his formation when the initial strategy didn't work and he lost both Brian Robson and Ray Wilkins. I don't think Wilkins played again in that tournament although he was available after suspension.
I was very impressed with Ozil and the young Mexican striker in the game last night, Hernandez. The chilling thought for all England fans should be that if both these lads were English it is very likely that they would not be in the England squad and would probably have to do another year in the Under-21s before they got a chance.
I know that I am biased here in this opinion, but I honestly believe that Jack Rodwell, if he was German, would have been given a couple of games in the full international squad by now. There are too many players in the England squad because of past reputation.
I recall Geoff Hurst writing in his book that after an international at Wembley, the players were going their separate ways after the game. "Bye Alf, see you next game" says Hurst to Sir Alf Ramsey. "Will you, Geoff?" was the reply. In other words, you may have scored 3 goals in the World Cup Final... but nobody is an automatic "pick" for this team. There are too many of the current England team who think they are automatic choices for the team, regardless of their performances.
Terry Hayes no. 24
''Wank Bubbles the lot of them''
Perfectly put, Sir! :)
''Wank Bubbles the lot of them''
Perfectly put, Sir! :)
I don't see how our players are any worse than the other countries.
Mascherano? Jonas Gutierrez who played last season in The Championship. Elano's in the Brazil team. Holland have players like De Jong, Van Bronckhorst and Kuyt. Chile have Mark Gonzalez an abject failure in the Premier League.
Our players are good players, Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are coveted by every club in the world. I believe the problem was the coach, Capello. He made lots of very poor decisions and refused to change them even when it was obvious it wasn't working.
I'd like to see a list of the players who are 'better' than the England squad by any kind of objective measure. I'm not saying there isn't a better squad, but you can't blame a performance so pathetic as England's in that World Cup on the lack of ability of the players.
Mascherano? Jonas Gutierrez who played last season in The Championship. Elano's in the Brazil team. Holland have players like De Jong, Van Bronckhorst and Kuyt. Chile have Mark Gonzalez an abject failure in the Premier League.
Our players are good players, Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are coveted by every club in the world. I believe the problem was the coach, Capello. He made lots of very poor decisions and refused to change them even when it was obvious it wasn't working.
I'd like to see a list of the players who are 'better' than the England squad by any kind of objective measure. I'm not saying there isn't a better squad, but you can't blame a performance so pathetic as England's in that World Cup on the lack of ability of the players.
Michael Brien #30.
"There are too many of the current England team who think they are automatic choices for the team, regardless of their performances."
This is because they ARE automatic choices, no matter what. When did Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Johnson, or Barry last look like international class players? Yet there was no possibility of any of them being omitted.
The comment about these men being supported by high class foreigners is accurate, although I would take it further and state that, in many cases, they are carried by the foreigners, especially Lampard, who prances around the Chelsea midfield doing nothing other than waiting to be set up with shooting opportunities.
Gerrard has just had possibly his worst ever season in the absence of Alonso; Carvalho was injured a lot thus exposing Terry; the attraction of Barry eludes me completely - it would make no difference who played alongside him and Johnson is as clueless a defender as I have ever seen at this level.
"There are too many of the current England team who think they are automatic choices for the team, regardless of their performances."
This is because they ARE automatic choices, no matter what. When did Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Johnson, or Barry last look like international class players? Yet there was no possibility of any of them being omitted.
The comment about these men being supported by high class foreigners is accurate, although I would take it further and state that, in many cases, they are carried by the foreigners, especially Lampard, who prances around the Chelsea midfield doing nothing other than waiting to be set up with shooting opportunities.
Gerrard has just had possibly his worst ever season in the absence of Alonso; Carvalho was injured a lot thus exposing Terry; the attraction of Barry eludes me completely - it would make no difference who played alongside him and Johnson is as clueless a defender as I have ever seen at this level.
Mike; "you can't blame a performance so pathetic as England's in that World Cup on the lack of ability of the players"
What do you blame it on then?
Brian Hill; "the attraction of Barry eludes me completely"
What do you blame it on then?
Brian Hill; "the attraction of Barry eludes me completely"
Me too, I simply cannot see what this attraction is at all. I mean, for a few weeks before the World Cup, the papers were constantly stating Barry is essential and it is pivotal he is fit. I simply cannot see how the people who were saying this are the same pundits etc who are now surprised that we have not gone further. When you go into a World Cup and Barry is one of your concerns, you surely cannot be expecting great things.
...and to sum it all up.
We're not very good!
Once you say it out loud a few times and see how it feels, it aint so bad, honestly, try it, go on.
It's like that moment when the spark of realisation makes you go "Ohhhhh yeh now I understand"...
We may be Englsih and may have swallowed all the cack the media throw our way but................
We're not very good! There's no shame in it, someone has to be the best, the worst, and somewhere in between.
I don't recall reading anywhere that being English gives us the God ( or other deity) given right to be the best.
ALL TOGETHER NOW!
We're not very good.
Now for some more medication!
We're not very good!
Once you say it out loud a few times and see how it feels, it aint so bad, honestly, try it, go on.
It's like that moment when the spark of realisation makes you go "Ohhhhh yeh now I understand"...
We may be Englsih and may have swallowed all the cack the media throw our way but................
We're not very good! There's no shame in it, someone has to be the best, the worst, and somewhere in between.
I don't recall reading anywhere that being English gives us the God ( or other deity) given right to be the best.
ALL TOGETHER NOW!
We're not very good.
Now for some more medication!
Does anyone remember all those dickhead pundits after the Euros in Portugal in 2004 saying Rooney needed to move to a 'bigger' club to make him a better player for England? When was the last time he played well for England in a tournament? So the mighty Ziralex and Man U have actually been detrimental to his England career. I don't care what anyone says regarding his goals tally for last season, Rooney has never filled his potential to be a Maradonna type legend. He has been woeful and his attitude has stunk. He has only become a prima donna.
I wonder if those same dickheads will say Rodwell will need to move in a couple of years time?
I wonder if those same dickheads will say Rodwell will need to move in a couple of years time?
From the Guardian:
"Prior to this tournament, there were only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995"
"Prior to this tournament, there were only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995"
"What do you blame it on then?"
Abysmal management. A manager whose 'tactics' hindered his best players and whose man management seems to have had his players looking jaded and disinterested.
Again, sit down with the squad lists in front of you and tell me Ghana, Slovakia, Uruguay or even Holland are that much better than us man for man. Brazil have TWO Man City rejects in their side. Management is so important at the top level - that's why they have managers, and ours was as bad as he could possibly be.
Abysmal management. A manager whose 'tactics' hindered his best players and whose man management seems to have had his players looking jaded and disinterested.
Again, sit down with the squad lists in front of you and tell me Ghana, Slovakia, Uruguay or even Holland are that much better than us man for man. Brazil have TWO Man City rejects in their side. Management is so important at the top level - that's why they have managers, and ours was as bad as he could possibly be.
Brian (35), I have been saying that we are not very good for ages,albeit the words may have been a bit more colourful...
We have "not been very good" since before that other foreign git was in charge, yeah that one... the dopey looking four-eyed Swedish weather-mong shagger! In fact, I think we are still picking the same players.
For me, Rednapp is not the answer... nor Hodgson. We need a young manager with modern ideas, someone passionate, experienced and proud; I say again, get Beckham ready — he's the man.
You used a semi-colon, so technically you put 'Beckham' and 'ideas' in the same sentence.
Our footballers simply aren't very intelligent, they don't have 'ideas' at all, let alone good or modern ones.
Our footballers simply aren't very intelligent, they don't have 'ideas' at all, let alone good or modern ones.
I think to blame is the FA.
It's now a very fragmented organisation with people regularly resigning from top posts. Mismanaged, poorly run with leaders who cant keep there pants on!
They are responsible for Football in the Country and seem to have all their priorities wrong! People involved in the Premier League have influence in the FA and I don't feel it's any longer the free football administration should be.
The FA make the rules in England, period... and only they can change things for the benefit of young English players!
It's now a very fragmented organisation with people regularly resigning from top posts. Mismanaged, poorly run with leaders who cant keep there pants on!
They are responsible for Football in the Country and seem to have all their priorities wrong! People involved in the Premier League have influence in the FA and I don't feel it's any longer the free football administration should be.
The FA make the rules in England, period... and only they can change things for the benefit of young English players!
Mike,
I agree Capello has to take some of the blame. However, this is more or less the same players from Mclaren and Sven's teams. It can't always be simply bad management. Do you think if we bought in Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho the 23 players who went to South Afric would suddenly be so much better?
I agree Capello has to take some of the blame. However, this is more or less the same players from Mclaren and Sven's teams. It can't always be simply bad management. Do you think if we bought in Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho the 23 players who went to South Afric would suddenly be so much better?
Yeah it's all the manager's fault. This is exactly the kind of delusion that Brian is eloquently characterising...
Sorry, Mike Allison, that was me adding the semi-colon to Terry Hayes (#39). Just a point of correct grammar (as in a continued thought) rather than changing any meaning — we won't mentioned your dropped apostrophes... Even if it were two separate sentences, I think the linkage would still be there.
And I personally think he has a good point: why not Beckham? At least he's English. I really don't agree with having foreign coaches for the national team. And he could just be the one to provide those qualities Terry lists.
And I personally think he has a good point: why not Beckham? At least he's English. I really don't agree with having foreign coaches for the national team. And he could just be the one to provide those qualities Terry lists.
Why isn't it the manager's fault? How is that a delusion when he's the single most important influence on the team? He decides what the team is and how they play! Do you agree that a rigid 4-4-2, Gerrard on the left and no Joe Cole were good tactics then? I don't understand those comments at all, you normally at least have some kind of logic behind what you say. Brian Williams has simply said what people have been saying for years, and its rarely been true. People in other countries rate our players, they want to buy them, and they lose to them in Champions League games.
If I'm deluded in thinking its the managers fault, what is the truth? You seem to suggest that its that our players aren't good enough, but offer no evidence at all, whereas I've already asked people to sit down and look at the squads of England, Ghana, Slovakia and even Holland and tell me that man for man we're not at the same level. The players are good enough, but they were badly managed.
I've also written elsewhere that the abysmal performance at this World Cup does not rewrite the history of other World Cups, where we've been much better and always been knocked out by either the eventual winners or on a penalty shoot-out, sometimes both, and often involving a debateable refereeing decision and/or a red card for one of our top players.
And how has history been rewritten with Sven? We were a good team, qualified comfortably, underperformed slightly at the World Cups but still made Quarter Finals both times, (as well as at Euro 2004) losing to the eventual winners in one and on a penalty shoot-out having played with 10 men in the other.
There is an awful lot of nonsense being spouted, and agreed with, on this thread.
Dave, to answer you questions directly, I don't see Ferguson as a tactician, he's a team/club builder, so no, but I'd love to see an England team with Mourinho in charge. To be honest I honestly think if I'd been in charge instead of Capello we'd have been better. Anyone who would have played the players in their right position and encouraged them to attack would have done better.
If I'm deluded in thinking its the managers fault, what is the truth? You seem to suggest that its that our players aren't good enough, but offer no evidence at all, whereas I've already asked people to sit down and look at the squads of England, Ghana, Slovakia and even Holland and tell me that man for man we're not at the same level. The players are good enough, but they were badly managed.
I've also written elsewhere that the abysmal performance at this World Cup does not rewrite the history of other World Cups, where we've been much better and always been knocked out by either the eventual winners or on a penalty shoot-out, sometimes both, and often involving a debateable refereeing decision and/or a red card for one of our top players.
And how has history been rewritten with Sven? We were a good team, qualified comfortably, underperformed slightly at the World Cups but still made Quarter Finals both times, (as well as at Euro 2004) losing to the eventual winners in one and on a penalty shoot-out having played with 10 men in the other.
There is an awful lot of nonsense being spouted, and agreed with, on this thread.
Dave, to answer you questions directly, I don't see Ferguson as a tactician, he's a team/club builder, so no, but I'd love to see an England team with Mourinho in charge. To be honest I honestly think if I'd been in charge instead of Capello we'd have been better. Anyone who would have played the players in their right position and encouraged them to attack would have done better.
You just did mention my dropped apostrophes!
Why not Beckham? There are lots of reasons, but the simplest one is that he's thick, and a manager needs to be clever.
English football generally has a culture of 'thickness'. Players who dare to read a broadsheet newspaper are freaks. There's a lot more in this as a theory than that they lack talent.
Why not Beckham? There are lots of reasons, but the simplest one is that he's thick, and a manager needs to be clever.
English football generally has a culture of 'thickness'. Players who dare to read a broadsheet newspaper are freaks. There's a lot more in this as a theory than that they lack talent.
Mike,
I consider the top teams historically in the world cup to be Brazil, Argentina, Italy and Germany. Bar the 1966 competition, in all the other competitions combined how many times have we beaten one of thos teams? I can't off the top off my head think of a single game, you may be able to remind me of a particular game. This to me emphasises the fact that in nearly every major competition we have participated in our players have not made the required grade.
Or are all the players blameless and it is in fact the followings fault every time.
Don Revie
Ron Greenwood
Booby Robson
Graham Taylor
Terry Venables
Glen Hoddle
Kevin Keegan
Sven Goran Erikkson
Steve Mclaren
Fabio Cappello
We have entered 20 major championships and got to one final, that shows the players we are producing have nearly every time fallen short at the very highest level.
I consider the top teams historically in the world cup to be Brazil, Argentina, Italy and Germany. Bar the 1966 competition, in all the other competitions combined how many times have we beaten one of thos teams? I can't off the top off my head think of a single game, you may be able to remind me of a particular game. This to me emphasises the fact that in nearly every major competition we have participated in our players have not made the required grade.
Or are all the players blameless and it is in fact the followings fault every time.
Don Revie
Ron Greenwood
Booby Robson
Graham Taylor
Terry Venables
Glen Hoddle
Kevin Keegan
Sven Goran Erikkson
Steve Mclaren
Fabio Cappello
We have entered 20 major championships and got to one final, that shows the players we are producing have nearly every time fallen short at the very highest level.
Does nobody find it odd that successive managers come into the England job and always end up picking the same players. They all start off with new ideas, but they slowly return to the same squad, why?
Simple I don't think the England manager is wholly responsible for picking the squad, the FA has far too much influence and they like players that raise money.
As to the Beckham as manager thing, why not? He may not be articulate but he knows football, he knows how the game should be played and he has more passion for the three lions than the rest of the England set up combined. Take him on now with a guaranteed contract until the next world cup, forget about the Euros. Then start playing the players most likely to be at the world cup in four years time, no elder statesmen to help the youngsters along just throw them in and get them used to it. Barring a drastic change in form, Joe Hart should be the England goalkeeper from now on, yes he will make mistakes but he will develop and he will be under a lot less pressure than David James has been recently.
Diego Maradona was a crap manger before he got the Argentina job, 3 wins out of 23 with two clubs, and he was crap when he took over the Argentina job, 1-6 v Bolivia, but he has worked out what he had to do, he is the most passionate manager out there, and he is no way more intelligent than Beckham, or my desk.
Simple I don't think the England manager is wholly responsible for picking the squad, the FA has far too much influence and they like players that raise money.
As to the Beckham as manager thing, why not? He may not be articulate but he knows football, he knows how the game should be played and he has more passion for the three lions than the rest of the England set up combined. Take him on now with a guaranteed contract until the next world cup, forget about the Euros. Then start playing the players most likely to be at the world cup in four years time, no elder statesmen to help the youngsters along just throw them in and get them used to it. Barring a drastic change in form, Joe Hart should be the England goalkeeper from now on, yes he will make mistakes but he will develop and he will be under a lot less pressure than David James has been recently.
Diego Maradona was a crap manger before he got the Argentina job, 3 wins out of 23 with two clubs, and he was crap when he took over the Argentina job, 1-6 v Bolivia, but he has worked out what he had to do, he is the most passionate manager out there, and he is no way more intelligent than Beckham, or my desk.
Mike, I apologise for my bad grammar; I'm a welder not a schoolteacher... but then maybe you can't weld.
OK, so you say Beckham is thick! At what? ... football? As far as I know, football is the only job Beckham has had. I can't imagine what Man United, AC Milan, Real Madrid and even the Yanks ever employed him for if he was so thick at it.
And even if he is thick, at least he'd be on the same wavelength as the players. He has been taught by the best, there is nothing to lose by giving him a chance, after all we can't get any worse can we?
You only had to look at his face while on the bench to see how passionate he is about England, the guy is three lions through and through.
Yes Steve, I don't think we'd have to worry about Euros or any currency for that matter... Beckham would do it for nothing!
"You seem to suggest that its that our players aren't good enough, but offer no evidence at all"
---------------------
No evidence at all?
I thought it would have been obvious that the last 45 years was that most enduring evidence. If you want something a little more succinct — try the last 3 weeks.
You have a couple of very good players and expect them to carry a bunch of average players. That's not the managers fault. Of course Capello made some mistakes — the implication that things would have been significantly different with another formation or Joe Cole on the pitch is the fundamental problem with the English footballing mentality. You just can't accept that you're not very good.
Because there's always some convenient excuse.
---------------------
No evidence at all?
I thought it would have been obvious that the last 45 years was that most enduring evidence. If you want something a little more succinct — try the last 3 weeks.
You have a couple of very good players and expect them to carry a bunch of average players. That's not the managers fault. Of course Capello made some mistakes — the implication that things would have been significantly different with another formation or Joe Cole on the pitch is the fundamental problem with the English footballing mentality. You just can't accept that you're not very good.
Because there's always some convenient excuse.
Brian Williams(15) I think you're on the right track there Re 1966 and all that.
It has been said that an Argentine is an Italian who thinks he's English (???) so just what does that make us, the English? maybe a sort of German who thinks he's a Brazilian ( in football terms )
What they really are is the Everton that turn up against Hull, Away, Stoke at Home, Wolves, Birmingham on both games.
Nobody really wants us in their group coz they know that on the odd time we can get it right, but..If they apply themselves, they can usually count on us fucking up our selves.
As to cause and solutions, its a chicken and egg thing, which came first. The multi generational institutionalised idleness or the foreign imports to fill the gap.
It has been said that an Argentine is an Italian who thinks he's English (???) so just what does that make us, the English? maybe a sort of German who thinks he's a Brazilian ( in football terms )
What they really are is the Everton that turn up against Hull, Away, Stoke at Home, Wolves, Birmingham on both games.
Nobody really wants us in their group coz they know that on the odd time we can get it right, but..If they apply themselves, they can usually count on us fucking up our selves.
As to cause and solutions, its a chicken and egg thing, which came first. The multi generational institutionalised idleness or the foreign imports to fill the gap.
It's the Premier League. No other league in the world plays football like it: teams take turns punching each other in face until the last man standing. 140mphs and everyone going forward. Hoof it up the field and look for the ricochet. No time on the ball. The crowds, refs, players, media are all sucked in this rubbish. It's not football. It's a boxing match.
And when the England players show up at the world cup they can't turn 90 degrees without take 4 touches on the ball and running in full circles. Rubbish. Algeria showed them up.
And when the England players show up at the world cup they can't turn 90 degrees without take 4 touches on the ball and running in full circles. Rubbish. Algeria showed them up.
In my view it's quite simple you start with the people at the top.
The FA as a committee are still in the 19th Century.
We have a non-English speaking bully as manager together with his foreign entourage and rigid system of playing.
We have Stuart Pearce who has never achieved anything in management and FFS we still have Ray Clemence involved after about 20 years. I am amazed that Sammy Lee is not still there.
All these little cliques and the Cockneys hate the Mancs, the Mancs hate scousers. What chance has unity and teamwork got?
The FA as a committee are still in the 19th Century.
We have a non-English speaking bully as manager together with his foreign entourage and rigid system of playing.
We have Stuart Pearce who has never achieved anything in management and FFS we still have Ray Clemence involved after about 20 years. I am amazed that Sammy Lee is not still there.
All these little cliques and the Cockneys hate the Mancs, the Mancs hate scousers. What chance has unity and teamwork got?
Personally - the best man for the England job, when he was at the height of his powers was a certain Brian Clough. He would have been ideal for England after Revie - but the FA went for Greenwood - a good coach and a nice bloke by all accounts - but not someone who would rock the boat too much.
There were other opportunities to appoint Clough, but these were not taken. He created title winning teams at Derby County and Nottingham Forest, winning the European Cup twice with Forest - any other nation and that would have been enough to land him the job of national manager/coach.
At both Derby County and Forest his title winning teams were not the best individual elevens but they were the best teams. The players collective abilities/skills won them the honours. With England it seems to be a case of "let's get together the best eleven players and that's the team"
In my opinion there needs to be some radical thinking in choosing the next England squad. There needs to be a strategy of looking forward to the next European Championships and ditching many of the old guard. Players like Terry, Lampard and Heskey have had there day.
There are others as well, such as Johnson that flatter to deceive. He is a brilliant attacking player, but absolutely clueless when it comes to defending. Isn't the first job of a full back to defend. One of the best attacking full backs I have seen was Paul Breitner, he scored a cracking goal in the opening game of the 1974 World Cup — but the guy could defend.
I heard one commentator refer to the England squad as "the golden generation". Perhaps "the complacent generation" would be more apt. At least Beckham for all the show biz glitz that surrounds him, would get around the pitch and track back — Lampard — when did he ever do that for England? Gareth Barry!!!! Benitez was prepared to pay £18M for him well that says it all. The fuss about whether he would be fit, you would have thought he was a world class midfield player.
I don't think the likes of Real Madrid or Barcelona will be trying to sign too many of that England squad. Mexico lost on Sunday evening, but they put up a decent performance and at least made the Argentinean defence work hard. As a toffee living in Germany, here’s the lowdown on Germany:
1. Not as many games played as in England (1 Cup Competition) = fresher players than EPL.
2. Not as many overpaid players who are full of themselves.
3. Not as many clubs with huge debts.
4. Bundesliga is not played at the same pace as the EPL. Players came to South Africa pretty fresh.
5. Squad is a team – not a bunch of individuals.
6. Squad is a good mix of experienced young players and even younger motivated players.
7. They are tactically good, and have a very good manager.
If you look at England, Italy, France, even Spain and Portugal – they are all tired and unmotivated. They easily run out of ideas, and seem to see this world cup as a burden – more work.I cannot blame the players (not really anyway) – most of this is a result of the way the FA has neglected your youth policy.
Too many foreign players in the EPL, too much money involved, and not enough Sport.The bubble will burst soon and the sooner the better for English Football and football in general.
1. Not as many games played as in England (1 Cup Competition) = fresher players than EPL.
2. Not as many overpaid players who are full of themselves.
3. Not as many clubs with huge debts.
4. Bundesliga is not played at the same pace as the EPL. Players came to South Africa pretty fresh.
5. Squad is a team – not a bunch of individuals.
6. Squad is a good mix of experienced young players and even younger motivated players.
7. They are tactically good, and have a very good manager.
If you look at England, Italy, France, even Spain and Portugal – they are all tired and unmotivated. They easily run out of ideas, and seem to see this world cup as a burden – more work.I cannot blame the players (not really anyway) – most of this is a result of the way the FA has neglected your youth policy.
Too many foreign players in the EPL, too much money involved, and not enough Sport.The bubble will burst soon and the sooner the better for English Football and football in general.
Back page of the Daily Mail Friday 25th June reads;-
"WHO NEEDS PENALTIES? It won't go that far... we are simply the superior team, insists (David) James"
Says it all really. England players and/or the British press are seriously delusional.
Will we ever learn?
"WHO NEEDS PENALTIES? It won't go that far... we are simply the superior team, insists (David) James"
Says it all really. England players and/or the British press are seriously delusional.
Will we ever learn?
Terry, it wasn't a grammar point at all, it was a Beckham/ideas point.
Ciaran the same players have won European trophies consistently over that period of time, even with the five year ban and the subsequent 'catch up phase' the English league is either top or very close to the top of the list, and way ahead of Germany.
I can accept this team this year wasn't very good, but I'm looking for reasons. Are you telling me changing the tactics and players wouldn't change the outcome? Are you telling me English players are only as good as 17 reject French players who never got near a squad who also crashed out in the group stage?
What does this tell us about the French players of 2002 and 2010? Were they just not good enough? I seem to remember it was Zidane, Henry and the like. Our current team, with Upson, Barry and Milner, have just got further than they did.
It just doesn't wash. There may be a fundamental English problem, I think its mostly tactical, but it could also be mental. One thing I'm sure its not is the ability of the players. The same players who win continental competitions at club level (and always did, before the influx of foreigners) and again, a point everyone keeps on ignoring, the other countries players aren't that much better. Slovakia and Ghana, the USA and even Holland have got some right average players, but the team (as put together by an intelligent manager with good footballing ideas) plays above the sum of its parts. England played way below the sum of its parts, and that is down to Fabio Capello.
There are still questions from my previous post you haven't answered. Do you think it was right to play Gerrard on the left and not play Joe Cole? You seem to forget that even one extra goal against Slovenia, or a failure of the USA to score that last-minute goal, would have seen us play Ghana with Uruguay waiting if we'd got through. We were very close to a good run in spite of the manager (we're all ignoring Lampard's equaliser and the huge momentum shift it would have caused, and to an extent did, for one thing).
I can accept that in comparison to Germany, Brazil, Argentina and Italy, we're not there, but neither are France and they won the World Cup, and I don't think its the quality of the players, who continually win European trophies, which is the problem.
For the third/fourth time. Sit down with those squad lists and tell me that the England squad wasn't good enough.
Ciaran the same players have won European trophies consistently over that period of time, even with the five year ban and the subsequent 'catch up phase' the English league is either top or very close to the top of the list, and way ahead of Germany.
I can accept this team this year wasn't very good, but I'm looking for reasons. Are you telling me changing the tactics and players wouldn't change the outcome? Are you telling me English players are only as good as 17 reject French players who never got near a squad who also crashed out in the group stage?
What does this tell us about the French players of 2002 and 2010? Were they just not good enough? I seem to remember it was Zidane, Henry and the like. Our current team, with Upson, Barry and Milner, have just got further than they did.
It just doesn't wash. There may be a fundamental English problem, I think its mostly tactical, but it could also be mental. One thing I'm sure its not is the ability of the players. The same players who win continental competitions at club level (and always did, before the influx of foreigners) and again, a point everyone keeps on ignoring, the other countries players aren't that much better. Slovakia and Ghana, the USA and even Holland have got some right average players, but the team (as put together by an intelligent manager with good footballing ideas) plays above the sum of its parts. England played way below the sum of its parts, and that is down to Fabio Capello.
There are still questions from my previous post you haven't answered. Do you think it was right to play Gerrard on the left and not play Joe Cole? You seem to forget that even one extra goal against Slovenia, or a failure of the USA to score that last-minute goal, would have seen us play Ghana with Uruguay waiting if we'd got through. We were very close to a good run in spite of the manager (we're all ignoring Lampard's equaliser and the huge momentum shift it would have caused, and to an extent did, for one thing).
I can accept that in comparison to Germany, Brazil, Argentina and Italy, we're not there, but neither are France and they won the World Cup, and I don't think its the quality of the players, who continually win European trophies, which is the problem.
For the third/fourth time. Sit down with those squad lists and tell me that the England squad wasn't good enough.
One of the most disappointing aspects of the England fiasco is that when Cappuccino head took the job he stated that he would only pick players that are fit and players that are on form. It didn't take lone though before he was brainwashed by those morons at the FA who, apart from Sir Trevor have never kicked a ball in anger at a professional level.
The FA like "yes" men. Brian Cloughs non appointment in the late seventies was a prime example of that. Cappuccino head was moulded into their way of thinking probably quicker than they expected and so the same old, same old approach continued;- players picked upon their reputation rather than their performances. How else can you explain why players like Gareth Barry were selected to play? Are you honestly tellin me he is a better player than the likes of Jack Rodwell? No fuckin' way.
We now have to wait for two weeks before the FA decide on Cappuccino heads future - two weeks for them to try and off load him to a club and thus avoid having to pay him a £5m compensation package. Who on earth thought it was a good idea to give him a new £6 million contract just weeks before a major tournament? Only the incompetent FA could do such a thing. Crazy, totally crazy.
"There are still questions from my previous post you haven't answered. Do you think it was right to play Gerrard on the left and not play Joe Cole? "
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I did answer it Mike.
As for you comparison to the current Dutch team, or the French world cup winning team...not even close.
And YES, you are similar to the likes of Ghana..that's why both of you will not get anywhere near winning the thing.
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I did answer it Mike.
As for you comparison to the current Dutch team, or the French world cup winning team...not even close.
And YES, you are similar to the likes of Ghana..that's why both of you will not get anywhere near winning the thing.
So is this your answer:
"the impliction that things would have been significantly different with anoher formaton or Joe Cole on the pitch is the fundamental problem with the ENglish footballing mentality"
This answer seems to imply that player selection, formation and tactics make no difference whatsoever. Do you believe that?
"the impliction that things would have been significantly different with anoher formaton or Joe Cole on the pitch is the fundamental problem with the ENglish footballing mentality"
This answer seems to imply that player selection, formation and tactics make no difference whatsoever. Do you believe that?
The current Dutch team which features Stekelenburg in goal, Joris Mathijsen and John Heitinga at centre back, Giovanni Van Bronckhorst and Nigel de Jong is a team with fundamentally better players than John Terry, Ashley Cole, Rio Ferdinand or Ledley King (had either of them been fit, add in Woodgate as well if you like).
Yes they have Robben and Van Persie, but both of them have played in the Premier League and never scored anywhere near the goals Rooney did last season.
I think you're just plain wrong. If English players were no good and never have been then English clubs wouldn't have won 30+ European competitions, level(ish, I haven't looked it up) with Spain and Italy and ahead of Germany.
Is it also the case that Spain's players simply aren't good enough and never have been? (The current team are performing way ahead of the historical Spain). I haven't done a comparison but I suspect England have a better record than Spain in World Cup finals, so by your reasoning Spanish players have simply never been good enough. Neither have the French, who, as I said, have crashed out at the group stage in both 2002 and 2010. Did management or mentality have nothing to do with those results?
Yes they have Robben and Van Persie, but both of them have played in the Premier League and never scored anywhere near the goals Rooney did last season.
I think you're just plain wrong. If English players were no good and never have been then English clubs wouldn't have won 30+ European competitions, level(ish, I haven't looked it up) with Spain and Italy and ahead of Germany.
Is it also the case that Spain's players simply aren't good enough and never have been? (The current team are performing way ahead of the historical Spain). I haven't done a comparison but I suspect England have a better record than Spain in World Cup finals, so by your reasoning Spanish players have simply never been good enough. Neither have the French, who, as I said, have crashed out at the group stage in both 2002 and 2010. Did management or mentality have nothing to do with those results?
"ability answer seems to imply that player selection, formation and tactics make no difference whatsoever. Do you believe that?"
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It doesn't imply that at all... that's your interpretation... and a pretty far fetched one at that. Its implications are rather obvious. What it implies is that in my opinion — a change of formation and personnel would not have made a great difference to the ability of the English team to win this competition.
Stop producing straw.
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It doesn't imply that at all... that's your interpretation... and a pretty far fetched one at that. Its implications are rather obvious. What it implies is that in my opinion — a change of formation and personnel would not have made a great difference to the ability of the English team to win this competition.
Stop producing straw.
"If English players were no good and never have been then English clubs wouldn't have won 30+ European competitions, level(ish, I haven't looked it up) with Spain and Italy and ahead of Germany."
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You appear to be ignoring the rather pertinent fact that these English clubs are not solely populated by English players.
"The current Dutch team which features Stekelenburg in goal, Joris Mathijsen and John Heitinga at centre back, Giovanni Van Bronckhorst and Nigel de Jong is a team with fundamentally better players than John Terry, Ashley Cole, Rio Ferdinand or Ledley King (had either of them been fit, add in Woodgate as well if you like)."
In short ....YES! Dejong is far more competent than Gareth Barry... and I'd have Heitinga over Carragher or Upson... or even the overrated show pony that is Rio Ferdinand... any day.
Your suggestion that Robben has never scored as many goals as Rooney did last season... would appear to be rather daft. One is a striker who had an exceptional season last year... the other is a winger.
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You appear to be ignoring the rather pertinent fact that these English clubs are not solely populated by English players.
"The current Dutch team which features Stekelenburg in goal, Joris Mathijsen and John Heitinga at centre back, Giovanni Van Bronckhorst and Nigel de Jong is a team with fundamentally better players than John Terry, Ashley Cole, Rio Ferdinand or Ledley King (had either of them been fit, add in Woodgate as well if you like)."
In short ....YES! Dejong is far more competent than Gareth Barry... and I'd have Heitinga over Carragher or Upson... or even the overrated show pony that is Rio Ferdinand... any day.
Your suggestion that Robben has never scored as many goals as Rooney did last season... would appear to be rather daft. One is a striker who had an exceptional season last year... the other is a winger.
A very simple (and some will no doubt think totally daft) analogy of English players versus Johnny Foreigners!
Set your average (which they mostly are) Enland international midfielder on a run down the flank of the pitch during a practice session and then loft the ball in his direstion and watch him bring it under control.
Now the kettle's boiled and the tea's poured while he's accomplished that do the same to saaaaay almost any of the other midfileders playing in the World Cup that play for the stronger teams, and a number that play for the lesser teams.
Can you see the difference? No? Then you're definitely English (I am myself but a realist).
Techinically and creatively we are miles behind even some of the so called third world footballing countries.
They have an affintiy with the ball we can only dream of. I'd have said with a few exceptions but Rooney's first touch during every game in that tournamet was slightly worse than my mum's!
Accept it people. IF we WERE good, others have caught up and left us behind.....
Set your average (which they mostly are) Enland international midfielder on a run down the flank of the pitch during a practice session and then loft the ball in his direstion and watch him bring it under control.
Now the kettle's boiled and the tea's poured while he's accomplished that do the same to saaaaay almost any of the other midfileders playing in the World Cup that play for the stronger teams, and a number that play for the lesser teams.
Can you see the difference? No? Then you're definitely English (I am myself but a realist).
Techinically and creatively we are miles behind even some of the so called third world footballing countries.
They have an affintiy with the ball we can only dream of. I'd have said with a few exceptions but Rooney's first touch during every game in that tournamet was slightly worse than my mum's!
Accept it people. IF we WERE good, others have caught up and left us behind.....
"You appear to be ignoring the ratehr pertinent fact that these English clubs are not solely populated by English players."
You seem to be ignoring the fact that they do have English players in. Are we really expected to believe that the English players currently at Chelsea and Man United are absolute passengers who are dragged along on the coat tails of the foreigners in the team? Find me anyone involved, from the managers to the foreign players themselves, who believe that.
Brian you're like a one man cliche, its hard to know what to say to you. I've heard all of this all my life then watched England go out and outplay the Italians in Rome for a vital 0-0, trounce the Dutch 4-1 or the Germans 5-1, it simply doesn't ring true.
And the Robben/Rooney comparison isn't that daft, like Messi and Ronaldo Robben is expected to leave his wide position and score goals.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that they do have English players in. Are we really expected to believe that the English players currently at Chelsea and Man United are absolute passengers who are dragged along on the coat tails of the foreigners in the team? Find me anyone involved, from the managers to the foreign players themselves, who believe that.
Brian you're like a one man cliche, its hard to know what to say to you. I've heard all of this all my life then watched England go out and outplay the Italians in Rome for a vital 0-0, trounce the Dutch 4-1 or the Germans 5-1, it simply doesn't ring true.
And the Robben/Rooney comparison isn't that daft, like Messi and Ronaldo Robben is expected to leave his wide position and score goals.
Mike (65) I haven't had a go at you personally mate, so I'll ask you not to start name calling and looking down your nose at me.
"Brian you're like a one man cliche, its hard to know what to say to you."
You refer to results there against Italy, Netherlands and Germany and the reason they're so memorable is that they're so few and far between.
I wasn't insulting the English team, I was just stating what the rest of the world, and those realists among us accept.
We're not that good!
...and Mike don't dwell on the difficulty of knowing what to say to me, like my mum used to say "If you can't say something nice........
Fuck off!.......................... *LOL*
"Brian you're like a one man cliche, its hard to know what to say to you."
You refer to results there against Italy, Netherlands and Germany and the reason they're so memorable is that they're so few and far between.
I wasn't insulting the English team, I was just stating what the rest of the world, and those realists among us accept.
We're not that good!
...and Mike don't dwell on the difficulty of knowing what to say to me, like my mum used to say "If you can't say something nice........
Fuck off!.......................... *LOL*
"You seem to be ignoring the fact that they do have English players in."
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ER......No i'm not. Where?
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ER......No i'm not. Where?
And the Robben/Rooney comparison isn't that daft, like Messi and Ronaldo Robben is expected to leave his wide position and score goals
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It is.
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It is.
Capello should thank his God for this WC's French Farce and the officiating fiascos. Because without them, he'd be the failure of WC 2010.
England has lots of good players and a nice pool of talent to choose from. The country's footballing is NOT miles behind other countries.
Capello fucked it up; badly (or is that fucked it up very very well?).
England has lots of good players and a nice pool of talent to choose from. The country's footballing is NOT miles behind other countries.
Capello fucked it up; badly (or is that fucked it up very very well?).
Mike
You're getting like the Kirkby advocates who just wouldn't accept that they'd been hoodwinked. Give it up, man, you're sounding desperate.
The English professional footballers at this World Cup are not as skilful, talented or hard-working as many of the players representing other teams at the tournament What is your problem with accepting that fact?
You're getting like the Kirkby advocates who just wouldn't accept that they'd been hoodwinked. Give it up, man, you're sounding desperate.
The English professional footballers at this World Cup are not as skilful, talented or hard-working as many of the players representing other teams at the tournament What is your problem with accepting that fact?
Are you suggesting that that squad, managed by Maradonna, Hiddink, Moyes, Mourinho or whoever, would have performed sufficiently well to overcome Brazil, Argentina or similar? How may of that England team would be welcomed at Barcelona, for example, never mind get in the Brazil squad? 2?
I love Everton and hope I live to see them, once again, at the pinnacle but I know dross when I see it; by any measure, viewing that England squad, the phrase silk purse/sow's ear springs to mind
Ciaran I've made decent points to you that you're ignoring, read the posts again and try to answer the important bits. I'll put numbers next to them to make it easier.
(1) There were no (very few?) foreign players in the teams who dominated Europe in the 70s and 80s (or is there something fundamentally different about how the Scots and Welsh play football too?). The same cannot be said of Barcelona, Real Madrid and AC Milan teams who've dominated Europe.
(2) Again, is there something fundamentally wrong with Spanish players over the years? Was there something fundamentally wrong with the ability of the French players in 2002?
(3) Do you genuinely believe that man for man the England squad is comparable to Ghana's, and how do you explain the fact that none, or very few, of Ghana's players are at clubs that play in the Champions League consistently?
(4) For that matter, answer directly whether you think playing Gerrard on the left and not playing Joe Cole was getting the best out of the talent available.
Stop constantly ignoring any good point made against you and picking up on any little thing, especially where its not particularly important, you can have the Rooney Robben issue if you like, but I would say that Robben plays the same position/role as Messi and Ronaldinho have played for Barcelona (or he did for Chelsea at any rate) and they scored shedloads.
(5) Your position as to the failings of the England team at the World Cup seems to be that our players aren't good enough, in terms of ability, and that mentality and the management of Capello played no part. Is this an accurate reflection of your beliefs?
Brian I'm sorry it came across so personally I didn't mean it to. But my point remains that everything you're saying has been said over and over again for years and simply isn't supported by the facts. The Italy result was memorable at the time because we'd had such a lean spell internationally (a home tournament aside) and we didn't expect to go there and get the result at all. The other two, of course they're few and far between, they're absolute hammerings of top international teams, how often does that happen? England's defeat on Sunday will be remembered for years to come because its never happened before. What is your evidence that 'the rest of the world' thinks English players aren't good enough? Why do they keep saying how good they are, voting for them in World and European player of the year polls, and trying to sign them for massive amounts of money?
Again (!), I'm not saying there isn't some sort of fundamental problem with the England team which means they don't win things over the years, I just can't see any reason to suppose its talent or ability, regardless of how poor some of our players looked in this last World Cup. Did anyone watch Robinho this season? Were Man City simply crazy to let Elano leave? Why didn't anyone outside Turkey try to sign him? Have England ever picked a player as bad as Jo?
(1) There were no (very few?) foreign players in the teams who dominated Europe in the 70s and 80s (or is there something fundamentally different about how the Scots and Welsh play football too?). The same cannot be said of Barcelona, Real Madrid and AC Milan teams who've dominated Europe.
(2) Again, is there something fundamentally wrong with Spanish players over the years? Was there something fundamentally wrong with the ability of the French players in 2002?
(3) Do you genuinely believe that man for man the England squad is comparable to Ghana's, and how do you explain the fact that none, or very few, of Ghana's players are at clubs that play in the Champions League consistently?
(4) For that matter, answer directly whether you think playing Gerrard on the left and not playing Joe Cole was getting the best out of the talent available.
Stop constantly ignoring any good point made against you and picking up on any little thing, especially where its not particularly important, you can have the Rooney Robben issue if you like, but I would say that Robben plays the same position/role as Messi and Ronaldinho have played for Barcelona (or he did for Chelsea at any rate) and they scored shedloads.
(5) Your position as to the failings of the England team at the World Cup seems to be that our players aren't good enough, in terms of ability, and that mentality and the management of Capello played no part. Is this an accurate reflection of your beliefs?
Brian I'm sorry it came across so personally I didn't mean it to. But my point remains that everything you're saying has been said over and over again for years and simply isn't supported by the facts. The Italy result was memorable at the time because we'd had such a lean spell internationally (a home tournament aside) and we didn't expect to go there and get the result at all. The other two, of course they're few and far between, they're absolute hammerings of top international teams, how often does that happen? England's defeat on Sunday will be remembered for years to come because its never happened before. What is your evidence that 'the rest of the world' thinks English players aren't good enough? Why do they keep saying how good they are, voting for them in World and European player of the year polls, and trying to sign them for massive amounts of money?
Again (!), I'm not saying there isn't some sort of fundamental problem with the England team which means they don't win things over the years, I just can't see any reason to suppose its talent or ability, regardless of how poor some of our players looked in this last World Cup. Did anyone watch Robinho this season? Were Man City simply crazy to let Elano leave? Why didn't anyone outside Turkey try to sign him? Have England ever picked a player as bad as Jo?
Phil I've just seen your post so I'll respond directly.
I know its hard to defend the England players having watched them in the World Cup, but let me ask you this: did you sit watching the World Cup and think 'yep, that's those players playing at their best, shame they're just not good enough', or did you think they were playing well below their ability?
And I am absolutely, definitely, positively suggesting that that squad (and actually he even got the squad wrong in the first place) should have done much, much better than they did. We had a very easy draw, everything was in our favour, and I can't see that I'm crazy to have expected us to win that group and beat Ghana in the 2nd round. As it turned out I think we'd have been favourites to win the Quarter Final as well, and there we are in the Semis. I'm not saying we should expect to win the tournament but given the draw, and the ability of our players, it was legitimate to expect to reach the semi-finals, and certainly the quarters.
A few more goals wouldn't have been unreasonable either.
The fact that we failed this particular time can be blamed on the fact that players didn't perform to their capabilities, not that they played as well as they could and its not good enough. I personally blame Capello for this, for the reasons I've stated over and over, as well as probably a few we don't even know about in terms of motivation and man-management.
What am I sounding desperate about, and what is so wrong with my reasoning and arguments? Very little of what I've said has actually been refuted at all, people just ignore it and repeat that they disagree with me.
I know its hard to defend the England players having watched them in the World Cup, but let me ask you this: did you sit watching the World Cup and think 'yep, that's those players playing at their best, shame they're just not good enough', or did you think they were playing well below their ability?
And I am absolutely, definitely, positively suggesting that that squad (and actually he even got the squad wrong in the first place) should have done much, much better than they did. We had a very easy draw, everything was in our favour, and I can't see that I'm crazy to have expected us to win that group and beat Ghana in the 2nd round. As it turned out I think we'd have been favourites to win the Quarter Final as well, and there we are in the Semis. I'm not saying we should expect to win the tournament but given the draw, and the ability of our players, it was legitimate to expect to reach the semi-finals, and certainly the quarters.
A few more goals wouldn't have been unreasonable either.
The fact that we failed this particular time can be blamed on the fact that players didn't perform to their capabilities, not that they played as well as they could and its not good enough. I personally blame Capello for this, for the reasons I've stated over and over, as well as probably a few we don't even know about in terms of motivation and man-management.
What am I sounding desperate about, and what is so wrong with my reasoning and arguments? Very little of what I've said has actually been refuted at all, people just ignore it and repeat that they disagree with me.
Mike Allison - I have never been in agreement with Ciaran McGlone so it’s a quite a feat you have accomplished. IMO you are like the all deluded Spurs/Liverpool/England’s fans out there.
“Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are coveted by every club in the world.” That is if you believe “Sun” and rest of the English press Mike - you can ask Michael how many of the Everton related rumors are true. I can tell you something if they were coveted they would have been sold – Ronaldo was, Alonso was, Roben was yet none of England “stars” was. I went into details about Lampard and Gerrard so I wont do it again but the matter of facts is they are not good enough, as weren’t Owen, McManaman, Woodgate, in fact name me 3 successful English transfers for the last 20 years abroad (Scotland doesn’t count.)
“Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are coveted by every club in the world.” That is if you believe “Sun” and rest of the English press Mike - you can ask Michael how many of the Everton related rumors are true. I can tell you something if they were coveted they would have been sold – Ronaldo was, Alonso was, Roben was yet none of England “stars” was. I went into details about Lampard and Gerrard so I wont do it again but the matter of facts is they are not good enough, as weren’t Owen, McManaman, Woodgate, in fact name me 3 successful English transfers for the last 20 years abroad (Scotland doesn’t count.)
“Brazil have TWO Man City rejects in their side.” – are you implying that City are well run club with a good transfer politic and have any idea what are they doing?!?!?
“the same players have won European trophies consistently over that period of time” that has to be a joke right? Cause for the last 20+ years the English club can boast only one UEFA Cup won in injury time with 11 vs 9 (5 ENG) and 3 CL wins from which 2 are one in a life time wonders, with Bayern completely battering United (4 ENG) and the the famous 15 min spell in Istanbul (2ENG). I will admit to the 2008 CL final and this was and exception rather than a rule, apart of it its 3 out of 40 very, very dodgy wins with only 9 English players participating in it. No wonder you still see England as fav.
For the last 40 years the teams England have defeated in knock out stages at WC are Paraguay; Belgium and Cameroon after extra times; Denmark and Ecuador, while failing to qualify for 3 tournaments out of 11 – pathetic in my eyes. They failed to qualify for 4 of the last 10 European Championships, prior to EURO 1996 their record for 6 tournaments reads 3 times didn’t qualify and when qualified from 9 games – 1 win 3 draws and 5 defeats, in fact for 42 years they failed to manage SINGLE KNOCKOUT WIN(their only being a penalty shootout vs Spain) How can you be so deluded about England and claim they are good is beyond belief.The main problem of England is your press and the hype it creates and your culture, there is always a ready excuse, wherever the Germans are first asking “Warum”(why) and are looking fro reasons for the failure, you always starts with IF, if the goal have stood, if the Rooney/Beckham wasn’t sent off, If we had scored just one more goal – the list is endless and that’s pathetic. I cant remember who it was on these pages who claimed that England would have won EURO 2008 if they had qualified…
The matter of fact is that Capello is world class manager, who proved himself wherever he went but England and he is just the next name in a long long list, but yeah I agree England have the best players just wait to the next EURO/WC and you will see,IF they qualify of course…
Perhaps, Mike, the simple answer may be that the players didn't perform to the best of their individual and collective abilities. In that case, the crucial question becomes why not?
As I'm sure you will also have been, I have been managed by some rubbish managers in the past. (I learned more about management from the bad `uns than I did from the good `uns...) One thing I never shied away from, though, was blaming any poor performance solely on them rather than hangovers, domestic troubles, couldn't-be-arsed days etc.
Class is permanent, as they say, but I query whether the current squad have the necessary class
So what to do?
Would you be in favour of any of the following:
As I'm sure you will also have been, I have been managed by some rubbish managers in the past. (I learned more about management from the bad `uns than I did from the good `uns...) One thing I never shied away from, though, was blaming any poor performance solely on them rather than hangovers, domestic troubles, couldn't-be-arsed days etc.
Class is permanent, as they say, but I query whether the current squad have the necessary class
So what to do?
Would you be in favour of any of the following:
- `Retiring', right now, Terry, Johnson, Lampard, Heskey, Upson (Gerrard!) et al?
- Establishing a core of 5 to 7 Under-23 players supplemented by some old-hands?;
- Using Euros qualification as a stepping stone to the next World Cup, by blending the youngsters into a coherent team and forgetting about actually qualifying or worrying about winning the Euros;
- Telling the media to Fuck Off?;
- Revamping the FA to make it accountable (to Sports Ministry?) and getting rid of the hangars-on who infest the technical area?;
- Telling any young English player who chooses to sit on a `big' team's bench for more money instead of playing regularly (even in a lower league) that he will NOT be considered?
Mike,
Firstly, there was no domination of Europe for two decades by England in the 70's and 80's. That's revionist nonsense. There was a couple of very good liverpool teams.
Secondly, I have already answered your question about Ghana and Capellos tactics. For me, Ghana have a more consistent quality of player - which puts them more or less on Englands level. They don't play in teh champions league because they play in Africa. Europe is not the beginning and end of the world. Perhaps they like playing at home.
Capello made mistakes. No doubt about it. And thank god he did because it gives you a tendril of hope - so you can start bleating about England's world beating capabilities when the next torunament comes around...Personally I don't think the mistakes by Capello were so monumental that they made the difference between the average football we seen and the world beating quality you seem to think is there...
Finally, I have repeated my position several times...and still you get it wrong. England have a couple of very good players...and a lot of average players. It is also wrong to state that they are not good enough for the England team. They are good enough, because that's where English football is. Average.
Firstly, there was no domination of Europe for two decades by England in the 70's and 80's. That's revionist nonsense. There was a couple of very good liverpool teams.
Secondly, I have already answered your question about Ghana and Capellos tactics. For me, Ghana have a more consistent quality of player - which puts them more or less on Englands level. They don't play in teh champions league because they play in Africa. Europe is not the beginning and end of the world. Perhaps they like playing at home.
Capello made mistakes. No doubt about it. And thank god he did because it gives you a tendril of hope - so you can start bleating about England's world beating capabilities when the next torunament comes around...Personally I don't think the mistakes by Capello were so monumental that they made the difference between the average football we seen and the world beating quality you seem to think is there...
Finally, I have repeated my position several times...and still you get it wrong. England have a couple of very good players...and a lot of average players. It is also wrong to state that they are not good enough for the England team. They are good enough, because that's where English football is. Average.
Bottom line is England are shit and have been for a good while. I said before the start of the Tournament that its the worst squad for over a decade. You cannot go into any World cup with players like James/Green, Upson, Heskey, Milner, Johnson etc and expect to compete with the best.
They are simply not good enough for that and Capello can instruct them however he likes but they will still lose.
They are simply not good enough for that and Capello can instruct them however he likes but they will still lose.
I don't know how good you were Phil, but the levels I've played at the manager is the guy who organises stuff, timings and gets 14 men to turn up. There is no tactical input and as players we've always sorted that out ourselves. I'd love to compare myself to a World Cup squad but its just not similar enough, assuming there are no hangovers or can't be arsed days from England players in a World Cup.
I'm not sure I'd 'retire' the players you mention with the exception of Heskey and Upson, who are definitely in Ciaran's category of 'average' player anyway and were lucky to be on the plane. I like your idea of 5-7 u-23 players (we'll be fielding an Olympic team in 2 years time that fit that category) but I'm not sure there are the players of that age group at the moment. The young talent that springs to mind is very young, Rodwell and Wilshere and I'm not convinced either are ready for the England team. A gradual introduction of young talent is needed, but the problem is that England recognition can negatively affect a player's development so the process needs to be carefully managed.
This links to your point about the young players who move to sit on a big teams bench. I think this has been positively encouraged by England managers in the past, especially Sven, who seemed to want to pick his squad entirely from the four Champions League teams. I agree that young players should play more at other clubs (like Everton?!) and learn to be the guy that takes responsibility in a match.
I think blaming the FA only goes so far as picking the wrong manager. All the other countries have the 'hangers-on' be they fitness coaches, assistants, nutritionists or whatever, and if we didn't have them we'd be criticised for not being prepared enough.
I think the current England players are good enough to reach the Quarter Finals, and maybe Semi Finals, of either major championship, as they usually do (in the case of Quarter Finals) and the criticism of them as individuals has come about because of poor performances which, at their level, can be blamed on the manager. Therefore my answer is that same players, different manager will equal better results.
Ciaran a couple of points of fact:
European Cup:
1977 - Liverpool
1978 - Liverpool
1979 - Nottingham Forest
1980 - Nottingham Forest
1981 - Liverpool
1982 - Liverpool
1983 - Hamburg
1984 - Liverpool.
What word would you prefer instead of 'dominant'? The Italians won the World Cup in 1982 having failed to win the European Cup for 15 years or even reach a final for 10.
Ghana's World Cup Squad can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_national_football_team
Look at the clubs they play for, they include Wigan, Portsmouth, Basel, Rennes, Udinese and NAC Breda. Only three play in Ghana (two of them are the back-up goalkeepers) and only two more outside Europe. It would seem for them Europe is the beginning and the end of the world.
Which of the following players is average:
David James, Glen Johnson, Ashley Cole, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Owen Hargreaves, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Wayne Rooney.
I'm not saying there aren't any, but there are 'average' players by your reckoning in most of the teams in the World Cup, including Brazil (Elano, Robinho?), Argentina (Gutierrez, Burdisso, the goalkeeper), Spain (Capdevila, Busquets) and Holland (Stekelenburg, Van Der Wiel, De Jong).
What makes the difference is how the manager can get them to play.
I'm not sure I'd 'retire' the players you mention with the exception of Heskey and Upson, who are definitely in Ciaran's category of 'average' player anyway and were lucky to be on the plane. I like your idea of 5-7 u-23 players (we'll be fielding an Olympic team in 2 years time that fit that category) but I'm not sure there are the players of that age group at the moment. The young talent that springs to mind is very young, Rodwell and Wilshere and I'm not convinced either are ready for the England team. A gradual introduction of young talent is needed, but the problem is that England recognition can negatively affect a player's development so the process needs to be carefully managed.
This links to your point about the young players who move to sit on a big teams bench. I think this has been positively encouraged by England managers in the past, especially Sven, who seemed to want to pick his squad entirely from the four Champions League teams. I agree that young players should play more at other clubs (like Everton?!) and learn to be the guy that takes responsibility in a match.
I think blaming the FA only goes so far as picking the wrong manager. All the other countries have the 'hangers-on' be they fitness coaches, assistants, nutritionists or whatever, and if we didn't have them we'd be criticised for not being prepared enough.
I think the current England players are good enough to reach the Quarter Finals, and maybe Semi Finals, of either major championship, as they usually do (in the case of Quarter Finals) and the criticism of them as individuals has come about because of poor performances which, at their level, can be blamed on the manager. Therefore my answer is that same players, different manager will equal better results.
Ciaran a couple of points of fact:
European Cup:
1977 - Liverpool
1978 - Liverpool
1979 - Nottingham Forest
1980 - Nottingham Forest
1981 - Liverpool
1982 - Liverpool
1983 - Hamburg
1984 - Liverpool.
What word would you prefer instead of 'dominant'? The Italians won the World Cup in 1982 having failed to win the European Cup for 15 years or even reach a final for 10.
Ghana's World Cup Squad can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana_national_football_team
Look at the clubs they play for, they include Wigan, Portsmouth, Basel, Rennes, Udinese and NAC Breda. Only three play in Ghana (two of them are the back-up goalkeepers) and only two more outside Europe. It would seem for them Europe is the beginning and the end of the world.
Which of the following players is average:
David James, Glen Johnson, Ashley Cole, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Owen Hargreaves, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Wayne Rooney.
I'm not saying there aren't any, but there are 'average' players by your reckoning in most of the teams in the World Cup, including Brazil (Elano, Robinho?), Argentina (Gutierrez, Burdisso, the goalkeeper), Spain (Capdevila, Busquets) and Holland (Stekelenburg, Van Der Wiel, De Jong).
What makes the difference is how the manager can get them to play.
Phew, lots of heat being generated late on here.
I can't understand the mentality of those who think that tinkering with formations, or even selection, will suddenly turn unimaginative, slow, immobile, dullards into world beaters.
Yes, of course we have some good players. By any general measurement Lampard is a good player. Sometimes Gerrard is too. But I'm sorry, but this England squad is littered with players that, on an international comparison, are average at best. Come on! Heskey, Upson, Terry, Johnson, Barry, Carrick, SWP, Lennon? Which formation would turn these into Argentina, Spain or Brazil?
Here's a useful exercise, note down your top 25, or 50, players in the premier league based on skill, excitement, goals, whatever. Now run through it and list off the Englishmen. How many? And then how many of them (and let's imagine you've got Rooney, Lampard & Gerrard) have been anything other than shite in this world cup?
Capello has definitely made mistakes. But he's also won the league 9 times, and the Champions League. I don't want a foreign coach. Germany, France, Spain, Italy & Holland wouldn't go there, so why do we? It's almost fundamental.
The choice of Capello (& Ericksson) reflects a sad & rather seedy side to English football. We're really not very god at anything, playing it, running it, organsing it, but due to some very peculiar global demographics our league is (currently) the richest. So we flaunt the money. It is ALL about money.
Take a look at this and observe Capello's salary compared to everyone else at the WC - http://tinyurl.com/2ag2lpx
Now this tells us two things in my opinion. Firstly that for many countries,and they include some of the finest footbaling nations on the planet, managing the national team is an honour, a duty, a prestige appointment in itself. Therein it attracts a modest income compared perhaps to other options, but still a decent old wedge compared to most people. It also suggests that English football can't see beyond the money for anything these days.
I mean let's take Wembley. All £800m of it. £800m on ONE stadium for ONE sport. Does not the mere thought of that seem as obscene to others as it does to me? Germany, Italy & Spain play around the country. We have plenty of excellent stadia, but we just had to build another one in London. It's just a case of look at my dick, it's much bigger than yours.
England has lost its way and lost its soul. I wasn't upset or surprised in the slightest by our performance in this world cup. It's odd. Almost everyone in the Kings Arms (Arundel) was suggesting 2-1 or 2-0 to England. My thought was hmm, don't think so. They move, pass, think, shoot. We, erm, don't.
Anyway, I can't believe £800m would have been better spent on academies, coaching, skills, community work up & down the UK to try plugging the huge gap of talent that's just not there in our youth set up. It's criminal.
Enough is enough. I don't ever think England will get what it needs because of the mentality of the English. The Magyars, the Dutch, the Germans, Brazil, Argentina, they have all showed us how in the past 50 years. And what have we learned from it? That's right, fuck all. And why? because we're Ingerlund and we win the world cup for misplaced pride & expectation every time.
We need a revolution. We need Hoddle, even McLaren. We need to fuck the FA off into a dusty box and start again We need to re-calibrate the premier league wit salary caps & stronger academies & coaching (thanks Mr Platini for making us do what we should have done ourselves). And I pray for the day when the fans stop buying Sky because they are tired of being fleeced. Then, and I think only then, will the penny finally drop in the premier league and English football.
As for the immediate future, I want to see real deadwood (Heskey, Barry, Upson, SWP etc) out now. I want Rodwell & Wilshire in the squad immediately. Not because they are young, but because they have more skill, energy, passion & commitment than others.
The malaise with Team England has nothing to do with 4-4-2. It is a root & branch problem. You either take it apart & rebuild, or you keep papering over the cracks and it eventually collapses.
Simples.
I can't understand the mentality of those who think that tinkering with formations, or even selection, will suddenly turn unimaginative, slow, immobile, dullards into world beaters.
Yes, of course we have some good players. By any general measurement Lampard is a good player. Sometimes Gerrard is too. But I'm sorry, but this England squad is littered with players that, on an international comparison, are average at best. Come on! Heskey, Upson, Terry, Johnson, Barry, Carrick, SWP, Lennon? Which formation would turn these into Argentina, Spain or Brazil?
Here's a useful exercise, note down your top 25, or 50, players in the premier league based on skill, excitement, goals, whatever. Now run through it and list off the Englishmen. How many? And then how many of them (and let's imagine you've got Rooney, Lampard & Gerrard) have been anything other than shite in this world cup?
Capello has definitely made mistakes. But he's also won the league 9 times, and the Champions League. I don't want a foreign coach. Germany, France, Spain, Italy & Holland wouldn't go there, so why do we? It's almost fundamental.
The choice of Capello (& Ericksson) reflects a sad & rather seedy side to English football. We're really not very god at anything, playing it, running it, organsing it, but due to some very peculiar global demographics our league is (currently) the richest. So we flaunt the money. It is ALL about money.
Take a look at this and observe Capello's salary compared to everyone else at the WC - http://tinyurl.com/2ag2lpx
Now this tells us two things in my opinion. Firstly that for many countries,and they include some of the finest footbaling nations on the planet, managing the national team is an honour, a duty, a prestige appointment in itself. Therein it attracts a modest income compared perhaps to other options, but still a decent old wedge compared to most people. It also suggests that English football can't see beyond the money for anything these days.
I mean let's take Wembley. All £800m of it. £800m on ONE stadium for ONE sport. Does not the mere thought of that seem as obscene to others as it does to me? Germany, Italy & Spain play around the country. We have plenty of excellent stadia, but we just had to build another one in London. It's just a case of look at my dick, it's much bigger than yours.
England has lost its way and lost its soul. I wasn't upset or surprised in the slightest by our performance in this world cup. It's odd. Almost everyone in the Kings Arms (Arundel) was suggesting 2-1 or 2-0 to England. My thought was hmm, don't think so. They move, pass, think, shoot. We, erm, don't.
Anyway, I can't believe £800m would have been better spent on academies, coaching, skills, community work up & down the UK to try plugging the huge gap of talent that's just not there in our youth set up. It's criminal.
Enough is enough. I don't ever think England will get what it needs because of the mentality of the English. The Magyars, the Dutch, the Germans, Brazil, Argentina, they have all showed us how in the past 50 years. And what have we learned from it? That's right, fuck all. And why? because we're Ingerlund and we win the world cup for misplaced pride & expectation every time.
We need a revolution. We need Hoddle, even McLaren. We need to fuck the FA off into a dusty box and start again We need to re-calibrate the premier league wit salary caps & stronger academies & coaching (thanks Mr Platini for making us do what we should have done ourselves). And I pray for the day when the fans stop buying Sky because they are tired of being fleeced. Then, and I think only then, will the penny finally drop in the premier league and English football.
As for the immediate future, I want to see real deadwood (Heskey, Barry, Upson, SWP etc) out now. I want Rodwell & Wilshire in the squad immediately. Not because they are young, but because they have more skill, energy, passion & commitment than others.
The malaise with Team England has nothing to do with 4-4-2. It is a root & branch problem. You either take it apart & rebuild, or you keep papering over the cracks and it eventually collapses.
Simples.
I can't understand the mentality of people who think that tactics, team selection and formation don't matter. It's half of what we talk about on this site during the season.
When you watched Gerrard in the 2005 Champions League final, did you think he was a slow, unimaginative, immobile dullard? How often during Rooney's 34 goals in 44 games season did you think he was that? Lampard, I'll give you; slow... but not the rest. Lennon and Joe Cole? To turn them into slow, unimaginative, immobile dullards would take some doing. Even Walcott and Adam Johnson have pace and dynamism to offer.
I don't want to turn us into Argentina, Spain or Brazil, I want us to be England. In the 2010 World Cup, we weren't even that. We didn't need to beat any of those teams to get to the Semi-Final. I'm not someone who believes we should win it, I'm someone who believes we could, and that the Quarter Finals are a baseline, and anything beyond is a genuine achievement. Yes we may come up short against whoever is the best that year, but that doesn't mean we're way behind everyone.
If we remember that Greece won Euro 2004 (a bunch, frankly, of slow, unimaginative dullards), and that Capello was the highest paid manager at the World Cup, shouldn't we have expected him to achieve something even if our players were average? A manager's job is to turn his players into more than the sum of their parts. Capello turned them into way, way less.
I agree about Hoddle, I said this on the other thread but England have never played so intelligently and controlled games as comfortably as when he was the manager.
When you watched Gerrard in the 2005 Champions League final, did you think he was a slow, unimaginative, immobile dullard? How often during Rooney's 34 goals in 44 games season did you think he was that? Lampard, I'll give you; slow... but not the rest. Lennon and Joe Cole? To turn them into slow, unimaginative, immobile dullards would take some doing. Even Walcott and Adam Johnson have pace and dynamism to offer.
I don't want to turn us into Argentina, Spain or Brazil, I want us to be England. In the 2010 World Cup, we weren't even that. We didn't need to beat any of those teams to get to the Semi-Final. I'm not someone who believes we should win it, I'm someone who believes we could, and that the Quarter Finals are a baseline, and anything beyond is a genuine achievement. Yes we may come up short against whoever is the best that year, but that doesn't mean we're way behind everyone.
If we remember that Greece won Euro 2004 (a bunch, frankly, of slow, unimaginative dullards), and that Capello was the highest paid manager at the World Cup, shouldn't we have expected him to achieve something even if our players were average? A manager's job is to turn his players into more than the sum of their parts. Capello turned them into way, way less.
I agree about Hoddle, I said this on the other thread but England have never played so intelligently and controlled games as comfortably as when he was the manager.
I'm not sure the editing has helped. I meant to say that Lampard is slow, but not unimaginative, immobile or a dullard.
"I can't understand the mentality of people who think that tactics, team selection and formation don't matter."
--------------------------
Where are these people?
--------------------------
Where are these people?
By the way....Why are you giving an extra European Cup to Liverpool?
Do they not bleat enough?
And in regard to your point...Bayern Munich won it 3 times in the seventies...so did Ajax..
Domination is a bit of a strong word ...and I'm also not sure it provides any actual point in regard to English players.
Do they not bleat enough?
And in regard to your point...Bayern Munich won it 3 times in the seventies...so did Ajax..
Domination is a bit of a strong word ...and I'm also not sure it provides any actual point in regard to English players.
James @ 70
I am guessing that the holders Italy not getting out of the group stage would be a bigger embarassment then our dour outing.
I am guessing that the holders Italy not getting out of the group stage would be a bigger embarassment then our dour outing.
"Which of the following players is average:
David James, Glen Johnson, Ashley Cole, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Owen Hargreaves, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Wayne Rooney."
--------------------
Just in case I get accused of not answering questions again....In terms of the international football....all of the above players are average except Rooney and possibly Gerard...
And all the ones you conveniently left out as well - fit nicely into that category.
David James, Glen Johnson, Ashley Cole, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Owen Hargreaves, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Wayne Rooney."
--------------------
Just in case I get accused of not answering questions again....In terms of the international football....all of the above players are average except Rooney and possibly Gerard...
And all the ones you conveniently left out as well - fit nicely into that category.
God, I'm enjoying this....pass me another bottle of that schadenthingy there will you?
Mike:
"1977 - Liverpool
1978 - Liverpool
1979 - Nottingham Forest
1980 - Nottingham Forest
1981 - Liverpool
1982 - Liverpool
1983 - Hamburg
1984 - Liverpool."
Must you ? On an Everton website?
(So they did win it six times then?)
Try Craig Walker's post on the other thread for an accurate summary.
Waiter?!
Mike:
"1977 - Liverpool
1978 - Liverpool
1979 - Nottingham Forest
1980 - Nottingham Forest
1981 - Liverpool
1982 - Liverpool
1983 - Hamburg
1984 - Liverpool."
Must you ? On an Everton website?
(So they did win it six times then?)
Try Craig Walker's post on the other thread for an accurate summary.
Waiter?!
Mike - the thing is, I expected England to play like, erm, England. And we did. And we were the same as are in almost every world cup with the arguable exception of 1998 in france under Hoddle.
We didn't make it in 78, had a premature ejaculation n 82, weren't good enough in 86, were deeply fortunate to get past Belgium & Cameroon in 90, didn't make it in 94, had a real good go in 98, came up short through lack of intelligence, movement, passing etc in 2002, same in 2006 (OK, lost on pens but still uninspired).
I'm not saying Rooney is a bad player. But what I will say is that he looked heavy, slow (injured) and uninspired. Had he been Brazilian or Argentinian he would have been out the team. How many English players would get into the Brazilian, Argentinian, Spanish, Portugese or German sides? Quite frankly, on showing in this world cup, the answer is none. Absolutely nobody.
Now, do the maths the other way around. Do you start to see? Listing off EC winners from the 70's & 80's is pointless (and as Ciaran pointed out, you missed out Ajax, Feyenord, Bayern, Milan etc). The best footballing teams in the EPL are Arsenal & Chelsea. How many English players appear there? More to the point, how well do they show against the likes of Barca, Bayern, Inter etc?
My prediction before this al began was last 16. Seriously. I did ot see us getting past Germany or Ghana. I expected a bit more against Germany, but the 4-1 doesn't begin to tell the story of how out foxed and out thought we were.
Anyway, facts in the end speak for themselves. the facts show that our world cup record is shit. It is by a country mile the worst of all the serious nations. 1990 was an aberation because we played crap then too with the exception of one game, the semi.
If I were in charge of England I would stop patting myself and the players on the back for being "world class" and part of some golden (bollocks) generation earning obscene amounts of money at the expense of stupid fans. I would look at all our defeats since 1970 and work out what the fuck it is that we KEEP doing wrong. I would analyse how Argentina, Spain, Brasil, Holland and Germany play. Not simply formation, but movement, fluidity, switching the play, defense to attack.
As Clarence Seedorf rightly slaughtered England for on Sunday, the sight of no less than 8 English players in or near the German penalty area, knowing how good Germany are at swift counter attacking, was criminal incompetence at this level of football.
Sorry to drum on about our unintelligent & immobile dullards. It's no less dissatisfying when expert players & pundits from other nations do it for you.
England is in danger of talking to itself yet again. What is needed is a conversation with football in the 21st century.
We didn't make it in 78, had a premature ejaculation n 82, weren't good enough in 86, were deeply fortunate to get past Belgium & Cameroon in 90, didn't make it in 94, had a real good go in 98, came up short through lack of intelligence, movement, passing etc in 2002, same in 2006 (OK, lost on pens but still uninspired).
I'm not saying Rooney is a bad player. But what I will say is that he looked heavy, slow (injured) and uninspired. Had he been Brazilian or Argentinian he would have been out the team. How many English players would get into the Brazilian, Argentinian, Spanish, Portugese or German sides? Quite frankly, on showing in this world cup, the answer is none. Absolutely nobody.
Now, do the maths the other way around. Do you start to see? Listing off EC winners from the 70's & 80's is pointless (and as Ciaran pointed out, you missed out Ajax, Feyenord, Bayern, Milan etc). The best footballing teams in the EPL are Arsenal & Chelsea. How many English players appear there? More to the point, how well do they show against the likes of Barca, Bayern, Inter etc?
My prediction before this al began was last 16. Seriously. I did ot see us getting past Germany or Ghana. I expected a bit more against Germany, but the 4-1 doesn't begin to tell the story of how out foxed and out thought we were.
Anyway, facts in the end speak for themselves. the facts show that our world cup record is shit. It is by a country mile the worst of all the serious nations. 1990 was an aberation because we played crap then too with the exception of one game, the semi.
If I were in charge of England I would stop patting myself and the players on the back for being "world class" and part of some golden (bollocks) generation earning obscene amounts of money at the expense of stupid fans. I would look at all our defeats since 1970 and work out what the fuck it is that we KEEP doing wrong. I would analyse how Argentina, Spain, Brasil, Holland and Germany play. Not simply formation, but movement, fluidity, switching the play, defense to attack.
As Clarence Seedorf rightly slaughtered England for on Sunday, the sight of no less than 8 English players in or near the German penalty area, knowing how good Germany are at swift counter attacking, was criminal incompetence at this level of football.
Sorry to drum on about our unintelligent & immobile dullards. It's no less dissatisfying when expert players & pundits from other nations do it for you.
England is in danger of talking to itself yet again. What is needed is a conversation with football in the 21st century.
Sorry, I gave Aston Villa's European Cup to Liverpool, thus slightly undermining my own point that English clubs dominated Europe in that period.
Ciaran I left out the average ones because they're not the best we have to offer.
"Where are these people?"
You. Post 63 "a change of formation and personnel would not have made a great difference to the ability of the English team to win this competition"
By the way, you seem to think I expected England to WIN this competition. I didn't. I've explained my expectations above.
And Alan Kirwin, post 79 "I can't understand the mentality of those who think that tinkering with formations, or even selection, will suddenly turn unimaginative, slow, immobile, dullards into world beaters."
Ciaran, I'm not claiming English clubs dominated the WHOLE of the 70s and 80s, they dominated in the period I listed, using predominantly English and certainly British players.
This backs up my entire point that our players aren't and never have been, as far behind the players of other countries as you seem to suggest.
Maybe I misunderstand you, but I think you're arguing that England's players simply aren't good enough to win a major tournament and never have been, and presumably never will be, because they don't have the ability, talent or technique to.
I'm arguing that this isn't the case, using performances at club level, a direct comparison with the players in other squads, and our favourable record compared to Spain over the years (particularly in World Cups). I assume you wouldn't argue that Spain's players have never been good enough in terms of ability, talent and technique (I mean over the years, not the current squad).
I'm also arguing that England fans can realistically have expected to do MUCH better than they did in World Cup 2010, and given the favourable draw, even reach the Semi-Finals. That they didn't is because the players performed below their capabilities and were less than the sum of their parts, not because they performed as well as they possibly could and that just wasn't good enough.
I'm also arguing that they were less than the sum of their parts because of the manager Fabio Capello, and that different selection, tactics and probably man-management and motivation (although there is little evidence regarding this other than the listless, pedestrian performances) would have produced a much better team and World Cup performance, and probably a Semi Final appearance.
Again, lots of people disagreeing with me, but very little in the way of reason, example or evidence. I've given loads, lets see yours.
Ciaran I left out the average ones because they're not the best we have to offer.
"Where are these people?"
You. Post 63 "a change of formation and personnel would not have made a great difference to the ability of the English team to win this competition"
By the way, you seem to think I expected England to WIN this competition. I didn't. I've explained my expectations above.
And Alan Kirwin, post 79 "I can't understand the mentality of those who think that tinkering with formations, or even selection, will suddenly turn unimaginative, slow, immobile, dullards into world beaters."
Ciaran, I'm not claiming English clubs dominated the WHOLE of the 70s and 80s, they dominated in the period I listed, using predominantly English and certainly British players.
This backs up my entire point that our players aren't and never have been, as far behind the players of other countries as you seem to suggest.
Maybe I misunderstand you, but I think you're arguing that England's players simply aren't good enough to win a major tournament and never have been, and presumably never will be, because they don't have the ability, talent or technique to.
I'm arguing that this isn't the case, using performances at club level, a direct comparison with the players in other squads, and our favourable record compared to Spain over the years (particularly in World Cups). I assume you wouldn't argue that Spain's players have never been good enough in terms of ability, talent and technique (I mean over the years, not the current squad).
I'm also arguing that England fans can realistically have expected to do MUCH better than they did in World Cup 2010, and given the favourable draw, even reach the Semi-Finals. That they didn't is because the players performed below their capabilities and were less than the sum of their parts, not because they performed as well as they possibly could and that just wasn't good enough.
I'm also arguing that they were less than the sum of their parts because of the manager Fabio Capello, and that different selection, tactics and probably man-management and motivation (although there is little evidence regarding this other than the listless, pedestrian performances) would have produced a much better team and World Cup performance, and probably a Semi Final appearance.
Again, lots of people disagreeing with me, but very little in the way of reason, example or evidence. I've given loads, lets see yours.
Alan your post wasn't there when I wrote my previous one, but you've misunderstood why I'm talking about English club performances. I'm hoping I've clarified that a little above.
You didn't say 'unintelligent' before, that's a word I would agree with.
I'd say what we KEEP doing wrong is something to do with our mentality, and also I can't remember an England team being set up in a tactically astute way, with the exception of Hoddle's in '98. We have been genuinely unlucky in some games as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere, there have been lots of penalty shoot-outs, bad refereeing decisions and losing to eventual winners. This isn't delusion, most of it is bare fact.
I'd say what we KEEP doing wrong is something to do with our mentality, and also I can't remember an England team being set up in a tactically astute way, with the exception of Hoddle's in '98. We have been genuinely unlucky in some games as well. As I've mentioned elsewhere, there have been lots of penalty shoot-outs, bad refereeing decisions and losing to eventual winners. This isn't delusion, most of it is bare fact.
Mike,
"Again, lots of people disagreeing with me, but very little in the way of reason, example or evidence. I've given loads, lets see yours"
England have entered 20 major competitions and have won one tournament, 44 years ago on home soil. They have been to 1 final and two semi finals.
I think the top countries with regards winning the world cup are Brazil, Italy, Germany, Argentina. Except for the 1966 tournament as far as i am aware in the knockout games of the world cup when the best players etc are supposed to come to the fore England have never beaten one of these teams.
"Again, lots of people disagreeing with me, but very little in the way of reason, example or evidence. I've given loads, lets see yours"
England have entered 20 major competitions and have won one tournament, 44 years ago on home soil. They have been to 1 final and two semi finals.
I think the top countries with regards winning the world cup are Brazil, Italy, Germany, Argentina. Except for the 1966 tournament as far as i am aware in the knockout games of the world cup when the best players etc are supposed to come to the fore England have never beaten one of these teams.
Tony (84) - Italy going out a big story, but nothing covered like France (which I found funny) and of course the embarrassing officiating. Anyway, mostly I wanted to run at Capello.
Are the English players good as (fill in the blank)? For me, there's plenty enough talent being produced by a soccer-mad population of 51 1/2 million.
But the organization in charge of the National Side has to put the best foot forward. Hiring a 64-year old who speaks broken English might not have been. Plus, HE'S 64!! What thinking led to a man that age being considered the best option?
Well, we now know he wasn't. Rooney at mid-field? Did that tall stringbean on England's team even get a whiff of playing time? The whole object of the game is score more than the other team.
In the 4 games England played, I didn't see anywhere a continuous, imminent threat to the opponent's back 4 and keeper. A direct, traceable result of Capello's deployments. My US boys couldn't finish but they attacked and created chances against every team. And there's Rooney 4 games wandering around mid-field.
And let's not forget the Original Sin of coaching in athletic competition; Not Having Your Team Fit. That's Capello too.
Enough fellows here have gone into the formations used and I agree. However, in Capello's defense, I will say sticking to the 4-4-2 throughout no matter what, did allow him more un-interrupted nap time during games. So, there's that.
England's play was uninspired. It IS Capello's fault. If we're watching on TV thinking why are they deployed that way, you know the players are thinking it. And it never changes game after game for athletes who are not in top physical condition to begin with? Germany 4 - England 1.
Hey, England wants a foreign coach, Bradley (a much more English name than Capello, don't you think?) might be coming available here soon. He may not have the resume (as much good as that did England in 2010) but:
1. England's side will be in top physical condition (which, of course translates to top mental condition).
2. England will be deployed to attack.
3. If they don't earn it, they're not wearing the National Shirt.
4. There WILL be youth on the team.
5. English as a first language.
6. No napping on the bench during games.
I just can't see English football in the dire straits some here do. Just need to be better organized and run at the National level. THAT was proven at WC 2010.
Are the English players good as (fill in the blank)? For me, there's plenty enough talent being produced by a soccer-mad population of 51 1/2 million.
But the organization in charge of the National Side has to put the best foot forward. Hiring a 64-year old who speaks broken English might not have been. Plus, HE'S 64!! What thinking led to a man that age being considered the best option?
Well, we now know he wasn't. Rooney at mid-field? Did that tall stringbean on England's team even get a whiff of playing time? The whole object of the game is score more than the other team.
In the 4 games England played, I didn't see anywhere a continuous, imminent threat to the opponent's back 4 and keeper. A direct, traceable result of Capello's deployments. My US boys couldn't finish but they attacked and created chances against every team. And there's Rooney 4 games wandering around mid-field.
And let's not forget the Original Sin of coaching in athletic competition; Not Having Your Team Fit. That's Capello too.
Enough fellows here have gone into the formations used and I agree. However, in Capello's defense, I will say sticking to the 4-4-2 throughout no matter what, did allow him more un-interrupted nap time during games. So, there's that.
England's play was uninspired. It IS Capello's fault. If we're watching on TV thinking why are they deployed that way, you know the players are thinking it. And it never changes game after game for athletes who are not in top physical condition to begin with? Germany 4 - England 1.
Hey, England wants a foreign coach, Bradley (a much more English name than Capello, don't you think?) might be coming available here soon. He may not have the resume (as much good as that did England in 2010) but:
1. England's side will be in top physical condition (which, of course translates to top mental condition).
2. England will be deployed to attack.
3. If they don't earn it, they're not wearing the National Shirt.
4. There WILL be youth on the team.
5. English as a first language.
6. No napping on the bench during games.
I just can't see English football in the dire straits some here do. Just need to be better organized and run at the National level. THAT was proven at WC 2010.
James(92)
"A direct,traceable result of Capello's deployments"
And the 4 goals conceded?
"A direct,traceable result of Capello's deployments"
And the 4 goals conceded?
David that's not what I'm arguing about. I'm arguing about WHY they haven't done better.
I don't think its because the players simply aren't good enough. I'd even go as far as to say you can win a tournament even if your players aren't good enough (Greece 2004, Denmark 1992) and you can fail for decades if your players clearly are good enough (Spain) or in particular cases if the management is bad enough (France 2002, 2010).
The idea that England's talent pool is comparable to Ghana's rather than Holland's, France's or Germany's is bizarre to me.
Des, the four goals conceded are all a result of Capello's decisions. This is in a way obviously and pointlessly true (in that everything that happens, good and bad, is a result of his decisions) but I also believe its specifically due to his failures as a manager. Two of them were counter-attacks when we should have been 2-2 anyway and one of them was just an atrocious piece of centre back play.
I also seem to need to repeat my assertion that World Cup 2010 was NOT a typical England performance. We didn't sit there thinking we'd played well and couldn't have done any more. We were atrocious by our own standards, let alone Argentina or Brazil's. We've never defended as badly, we've never allowed opposition goal kicks to be brought down unchallenged in our own half on a regular basis and no-one has ever played as badly, or looked as off the pace, as Gareth Barry did in that game.
I don't think its because the players simply aren't good enough. I'd even go as far as to say you can win a tournament even if your players aren't good enough (Greece 2004, Denmark 1992) and you can fail for decades if your players clearly are good enough (Spain) or in particular cases if the management is bad enough (France 2002, 2010).
The idea that England's talent pool is comparable to Ghana's rather than Holland's, France's or Germany's is bizarre to me.
Des, the four goals conceded are all a result of Capello's decisions. This is in a way obviously and pointlessly true (in that everything that happens, good and bad, is a result of his decisions) but I also believe its specifically due to his failures as a manager. Two of them were counter-attacks when we should have been 2-2 anyway and one of them was just an atrocious piece of centre back play.
I also seem to need to repeat my assertion that World Cup 2010 was NOT a typical England performance. We didn't sit there thinking we'd played well and couldn't have done any more. We were atrocious by our own standards, let alone Argentina or Brazil's. We've never defended as badly, we've never allowed opposition goal kicks to be brought down unchallenged in our own half on a regular basis and no-one has ever played as badly, or looked as off the pace, as Gareth Barry did in that game.
Mike,
Why are you persisting in these straw man arguments? They're simply making your position look more ludicrous than it is....
This...
"You. Post 63 "a change of formation and personnel would not have made a great difference to the ability of the English team to win this competition"
IS CERTAINLY NOT THE SAME AS thinking "that tactics, team selection and formation don't matter"
It's not even close.
Why are you persisting in these straw man arguments? They're simply making your position look more ludicrous than it is....
This...
"You. Post 63 "a change of formation and personnel would not have made a great difference to the ability of the English team to win this competition"
IS CERTAINLY NOT THE SAME AS thinking "that tactics, team selection and formation don't matter"
It's not even close.
"Again, lots of people disagreeing with me, but very little in the way of reason, example or evidence. I've given loads, lets see yours"
----------------------------
Sorry Mike,
You've given sod all evidence. In fact your use of the European cup in the 70's and 80's is rather ludicrous, because the last tme I checked we weren't talking about a British team. It proves nothing whatsoever in terms of your argument.
As for your analogy with the Spanish side...I have no idea what you think that proves either..Spain have always been perennial underachievers - but they never ever had a team that was even close to the one they've had recently..
So, for me....your evidence [sic] is rather weak to say the least.
My evidence is empirical and rather conclusive and has been laid in front of you from the start of this thread...yet you've conveniently ignored it. It's the last 45 years of football. And the fact that not one single manager has been able to unearth this apparent latent greatness...
You curiously state that your expectations were to at least make the quarter finals...that means you're actually castigating the manager for winning one less game than you expected. Doesn't really stack up, does it?
----------------------------
Sorry Mike,
You've given sod all evidence. In fact your use of the European cup in the 70's and 80's is rather ludicrous, because the last tme I checked we weren't talking about a British team. It proves nothing whatsoever in terms of your argument.
As for your analogy with the Spanish side...I have no idea what you think that proves either..Spain have always been perennial underachievers - but they never ever had a team that was even close to the one they've had recently..
So, for me....your evidence [sic] is rather weak to say the least.
My evidence is empirical and rather conclusive and has been laid in front of you from the start of this thread...yet you've conveniently ignored it. It's the last 45 years of football. And the fact that not one single manager has been able to unearth this apparent latent greatness...
You curiously state that your expectations were to at least make the quarter finals...that means you're actually castigating the manager for winning one less game than you expected. Doesn't really stack up, does it?
Mike
You have posted quite a number of times to this effect since England's exit.
It is just not a credible argument to blame Capello for the atrocious defending we witnessed.
He,naturally,will have to accept blame for deficient tactics/selection/organisation even motivation.
I am sorry but you are deluding yourself if you excuse Terry,Barry,James etc for their inability
to perform even basic defensive duties.
You have posted quite a number of times to this effect since England's exit.
It is just not a credible argument to blame Capello for the atrocious defending we witnessed.
He,naturally,will have to accept blame for deficient tactics/selection/organisation even motivation.
I am sorry but you are deluding yourself if you excuse Terry,Barry,James etc for their inability
to perform even basic defensive duties.
Mike
If you MUST use the RS's European Cup successes to back up your argument on here, you would do well to remember that most of it was achieved when their teams consisted mostly of Scottish,Irish, and Welsh players.
If you MUST use the RS's European Cup successes to back up your argument on here, you would do well to remember that most of it was achieved when their teams consisted mostly of Scottish,Irish, and Welsh players.
"apparent latent greatness"
Never mentioned that. I said our players are generally good enough and not miles behind the other teams. That's what I've been arguing, I even stated that explicitly at one point.
My evidence is fine, it shows that English players can win top international competitions. Your proposal that they only do so because of the foreign players in their teams is ludicrous, especially when English clubs won 7 out of 8 European Cups, and the other one was Hamburg with Kevin Keegan as their star man.
I'm castigating the manager for failing to make the Semi-Finals, you obviously don't read what I write very carefully, but much more so for the general level of performance, playing the wrong players and some of them in the wrong positions, and most especially for not changing when it obviously wasn't working.
Des, its perfectly credible to blame the manager for a team's apalling performance, it happens all the time.
"You've given sod all evidence"
This shows I'm wasting my time. I had thought more of you. I disagree with you, and I've presented evidence that backs up my point, that's not the same as sod all evidence. I don't know what you think I think, your 'latent greatness' comment suggests you haven't really paid any attention to what I've tried to get across, but there is nothing I can say that I haven't already said, often two or three times.
And its not a straw man argument, its very close to what you said. The only word that saves your position is the word 'win'. A change of formation (tactics, formation) and personnel (team selection) WOULD have made a huge difference to England's ability to 'do well' or 'succeed' or 'reach the final' of this tournament. We SHOULD have got to the Semi Final, then we'd have needed a great performance and a bit of luck, like most tournament winning teams do.
My Spain analogy proves that very good players can completely fail to even get close to winning anything. Maybe you simply believe the Spanish players of the 80s and 90s were no good, if so, so be it, but I don't.
This is getting too much like hard work. My 'ludicrous position' is this:
1) England generally produce good players who aren't miles behind the very best countries.
2) England's performance in this World Cup was way below their usual standard, was very poor, and can be blamed (mostly) on the manager.
Everything I say stacks up just fine, that's not the same as agreeing with you. What point are you actually trying to make? It seems to me to be that English players are a long way behind the standard of those of the other top countries. Am I right in thinking that? Because I think I've dealt with it in a number of ways. Its that that doesn't stack up when you look at who wins club competitions.
Inevitably Ciaran you'll have the last word, but I can't bring myself to respond to anything else you'll write, as you make doing so seem so pointless. At least tell me you now understand what I'm saying, because many of your responses seem to paint me as some deluded fan who thinks England have the best players in the World and always have and its a near miracle that we haven't won more tournaments. If this is the person you've been arguing against then please go back and read my posts again, slowly and in detail.
Never mentioned that. I said our players are generally good enough and not miles behind the other teams. That's what I've been arguing, I even stated that explicitly at one point.
My evidence is fine, it shows that English players can win top international competitions. Your proposal that they only do so because of the foreign players in their teams is ludicrous, especially when English clubs won 7 out of 8 European Cups, and the other one was Hamburg with Kevin Keegan as their star man.
I'm castigating the manager for failing to make the Semi-Finals, you obviously don't read what I write very carefully, but much more so for the general level of performance, playing the wrong players and some of them in the wrong positions, and most especially for not changing when it obviously wasn't working.
Des, its perfectly credible to blame the manager for a team's apalling performance, it happens all the time.
"You've given sod all evidence"
This shows I'm wasting my time. I had thought more of you. I disagree with you, and I've presented evidence that backs up my point, that's not the same as sod all evidence. I don't know what you think I think, your 'latent greatness' comment suggests you haven't really paid any attention to what I've tried to get across, but there is nothing I can say that I haven't already said, often two or three times.
And its not a straw man argument, its very close to what you said. The only word that saves your position is the word 'win'. A change of formation (tactics, formation) and personnel (team selection) WOULD have made a huge difference to England's ability to 'do well' or 'succeed' or 'reach the final' of this tournament. We SHOULD have got to the Semi Final, then we'd have needed a great performance and a bit of luck, like most tournament winning teams do.
My Spain analogy proves that very good players can completely fail to even get close to winning anything. Maybe you simply believe the Spanish players of the 80s and 90s were no good, if so, so be it, but I don't.
This is getting too much like hard work. My 'ludicrous position' is this:
1) England generally produce good players who aren't miles behind the very best countries.
2) England's performance in this World Cup was way below their usual standard, was very poor, and can be blamed (mostly) on the manager.
Everything I say stacks up just fine, that's not the same as agreeing with you. What point are you actually trying to make? It seems to me to be that English players are a long way behind the standard of those of the other top countries. Am I right in thinking that? Because I think I've dealt with it in a number of ways. Its that that doesn't stack up when you look at who wins club competitions.
Inevitably Ciaran you'll have the last word, but I can't bring myself to respond to anything else you'll write, as you make doing so seem so pointless. At least tell me you now understand what I'm saying, because many of your responses seem to paint me as some deluded fan who thinks England have the best players in the World and always have and its a near miracle that we haven't won more tournaments. If this is the person you've been arguing against then please go back and read my posts again, slowly and in detail.
Brendan the Scottish and Welsh players basically came through a similar system and footballing culture and so any criticism of English players general standard would also apply to them. The Irish players were English (bit hazy on my RS history but I can name Steve Heighway and Mark Lawrenson as two examples. This also relies on the notion that the English players were passengers on the coattails of the Scottish and Welsh lads.
"My evidence is fine, it shows that English players can win top international competitions"
---------------------------
It shows nothing of the sort...If you can't stick to English making points about English players then your defeating your own argument.
---------------------------
It shows nothing of the sort...If you can't stick to English making points about English players then your defeating your own argument.
Des (93) - Everything I put above the the score.
Of course, the players play the game. But it's the coach/manager's job to get them ready to play. He serves no other function. I didn't see a team ready to play. No youth (at least not out there for substantial minutes). Players hand-jammed into a system, rather than a system tailored to the talent available, serious questions right in here if the nation's best talent was selected, and a team that tired at the end of games.
All that's organizational. If it's not Capello's fault, than who?
Of course, the players play the game. But it's the coach/manager's job to get them ready to play. He serves no other function. I didn't see a team ready to play. No youth (at least not out there for substantial minutes). Players hand-jammed into a system, rather than a system tailored to the talent available, serious questions right in here if the nation's best talent was selected, and a team that tired at the end of games.
All that's organizational. If it's not Capello's fault, than who?
Mike, Seriously...
It's bad enough when you strawman the opposing opinions...but denying your ownwords whe they're in black and white... and then having the audacity to those in opposition of not being able to read...well - it's really silly stuff...
Here's the bit where you said your expectations were the quarter finals..Just to refresh your memory..
"I'm not someone who believes we should win it, I'm someone who believes we could, and that the Quarter Finals are a baseline"
So, i'll ask again...Is it not a little daft to be castigating a manager for falling one game short of your expectation?
It's bad enough when you strawman the opposing opinions...but denying your ownwords whe they're in black and white... and then having the audacity to those in opposition of not being able to read...well - it's really silly stuff...
Here's the bit where you said your expectations were the quarter finals..Just to refresh your memory..
"I'm not someone who believes we should win it, I'm someone who believes we could, and that the Quarter Finals are a baseline"
So, i'll ask again...Is it not a little daft to be castigating a manager for falling one game short of your expectation?
And of course I understand your position Mike..you have now rectified your argument to suggest that England currently have the players to have beaten Germany and Argentina and make the 2010 quarters.....and this is of course proven by the fact that a liverpool team populated by Scots, Irish and Welsh won the European cup a few times in the 70's and 80's - and it's also apparent from the fact that from the Spainish failing to do anything in the 80's and 90's...
and......The only reason why England didn't satisfy your expectation...is because Joe Cole was on the bench and Stevie G played from the left..
It's all crystal clear Mike. I just happen to think it's not very convincing.
and......The only reason why England didn't satisfy your expectation...is because Joe Cole was on the bench and Stevie G played from the left..
It's all crystal clear Mike. I just happen to think it's not very convincing.
Alan Kirwin - you are bob on mate.
In my experience of WC's since 1978, 1998 under that nutter Hoddle was the one that got away. We had the players, the manager (despite obvious controversial opinions), were virtually playing at home - it was there for the taking. I mean, France won it for fucks sake.
As for Germany on Sunday - fair play they did a job on us by hitting it long and playing on the break, but their back line are wank and their keepers a mug and its just disappointing we were so shit not to exploit that.
Oh well, maybe we can win it in Brazil in 2014. Yeah, right!
Come on England.
In my experience of WC's since 1978, 1998 under that nutter Hoddle was the one that got away. We had the players, the manager (despite obvious controversial opinions), were virtually playing at home - it was there for the taking. I mean, France won it for fucks sake.
As for Germany on Sunday - fair play they did a job on us by hitting it long and playing on the break, but their back line are wank and their keepers a mug and its just disappointing we were so shit not to exploit that.
Oh well, maybe we can win it in Brazil in 2014. Yeah, right!
Come on England.
Jesus Christ Ciaran, I'd hate to play cards with you
Green: "9 of Spades"
McGlone: "You might say that Mike but thats not a "9" its a "6" from where I'm sitting.
Green: "I'm playing 9 of Spades, your card"
McGlone: "I'm being oppressed!!! I'm being oppressed!!!!"
Green: "9 of Spades"
McGlone: "You might say that Mike but thats not a "9" its a "6" from where I'm sitting.
Green: "I'm playing 9 of Spades, your card"
McGlone: "I'm being oppressed!!! I'm being oppressed!!!!"
"As for Germany on Sunday - fair play they did a job on us by hitting it long and playing on the break".
I think there's a bit more to it than that Mike. Take a look at the 2nd German goal again. Great build-up, working it out to the wing and back in again, with slick passing initiated by Schweinsteiger.
No I'm afraid the Germans gave you a lesson in teamwork,movement, brains,and clinical finishing.
And if you again fail to learn the lesson from this, you will be having exactly the same discussion in 4 years time.
I think there's a bit more to it than that Mike. Take a look at the 2nd German goal again. Great build-up, working it out to the wing and back in again, with slick passing initiated by Schweinsteiger.
No I'm afraid the Germans gave you a lesson in teamwork,movement, brains,and clinical finishing.
And if you again fail to learn the lesson from this, you will be having exactly the same discussion in 4 years time.
I couldn't care less about the World Cup and although I'm Liverpool born I've lived all my adult life in the US. I consider myself Scouse not English ... anyway here's my team of Merseysiders:
Warner (cough)
Hibbert
Carragher
Nolan
Baines
Anichebe
Rodwell
Gerrard
Barton
Rooney
Nugent
Manager: Steve Coppell
How come we can't develop and top class keepers in Liverpool ;-)
Warner (cough)
Hibbert
Carragher
Nolan
Baines
Anichebe
Rodwell
Gerrard
Barton
Rooney
Nugent
Manager: Steve Coppell
How come we can't develop and top class keepers in Liverpool ;-)
No Liverpool goalies because they aren't given a chance, EPL standard is much higher than it should be. Remove the foreign players (it won't happen until the money is gone) and then you'll see the English players develop, also the standard would drop some.
Same for Scottish football, they used to have many great players in the top flight English League, their football is also struggling internationally for similar reasons.
So then you are left with a few English players deemed to be top of their game, Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Ronney, etc. They probably are the best we have, but younger and potentially better players are blocked from coming through quickly because all EPL teams are playing with stronger senior pros from other nationalities.
In any case, none of these new English managers have done anything different, same old names in the squad, just bigger pay packet for the manager, no chances taken at all.
Who was the last decent Liverpool born goalie? Andy Rankin?
I think most people here have valid points. The EPL is propped up by foreign players and otherwise would be ordinary. The South Americans don't have foreign players in their teams much and they are the strongest; Spanish teams have many Spanish players, even Barca and Real, and great stars.
I have been reather bored with this World Cup and am losing it more and more with footie altogether — time to get a life instead of this over-rated over-hyped over-paid spectacle. Best thing is the public lose interest in football for at least a season; someone suggested boycotting the PL and I agree!
I will always have an sneaking affection for Everton but will transfer some of my support to Bristol City where I now live. These idiots need crashing down to earth and big time, the only way is if they are not treated like gods anymore... people, grow up, get a life and this ridiculous pantomime is finished period. We can start from scratch with a level playing field and just a sport not dominating the media etc, not put on pedestals, as they have done as if all this is really important when there are people starving, there are wars, the planet's dying etc....
Get footie in perspective, let footballers be humble mortals like of old, playing for the joy again and to give pleasure to these — not these joyless stressed up tight uniintelligent arses who can't even lose gracefully! I might just get a little intersted again.
"I'm not someone who believes we should win it, I'm someone who believes we could, and that the Quarter Finals are a baseline"
"I'm castigating the manager for failing to make the Semi-Finals, you obviously don't read what I write very carefully,"
----------------------
Neither do you...cards you say...?
You appear to have aces and eights.
"I'm castigating the manager for failing to make the Semi-Finals, you obviously don't read what I write very carefully,"
----------------------
Neither do you...cards you say...?
You appear to have aces and eights.
Post 88 Ciaran, read carefully:
"I'm also arguing that England fans can realistically have expected to do MUCH better than they did in World Cup 2010, and given the favourable draw, even reach the Semi-Finals"
And I didn't say anything about cards, that was a different Mike.
Game Over.
"I'm also arguing that England fans can realistically have expected to do MUCH better than they did in World Cup 2010, and given the favourable draw, even reach the Semi-Finals"
And I didn't say anything about cards, that was a different Mike.
Game Over.
I apologise Mike...
Mr Mike Green would you like to explain your point?
Or is that beyond you?
Mr Mike Green would you like to explain your point?
Or is that beyond you?
Mike Allison....I read it carefully...the use of the word 'even' suggests that this was not your actual expectation...
Especially considering your explicit words in post 80...are you actually denying the content of your own post at #80?
Especially considering your explicit words in post 80...are you actually denying the content of your own post at #80?
A general baseline for any tournament is that we reach the Quarter Final, a specific expectation for this tournament, given the easy draw, was that we reach the Semi Final.
What a load of cobblers.
Ciaran, England are capable of producing players good enough to compete on the world stage, unfortunately, the best players produced in this country are built up so much that they believe themselves to be better than they are and therefore don't work anymore. Stevie G La is a case in point. When he came onto the international scene he ran his arse off and showed the potential to be great, this year he strolled about for 75% of the time, had a few 'glory' shots when he should have passed and sprayed a couple of good passes around to remind everyone how good he could be if he could be bothered.
The biggest problem with English Players isn't a lack of ability, Switzerland beat Spain with a huge lack of ability, but they had hunger, they wanted to win, at no point did any of our better players look like they wanted to win, and for that they should never pull on an England shirt again. No England player should be paid anything for the match against Hungary, lets see how many of the prima donnas turn up for that one.
Ciaran, England are capable of producing players good enough to compete on the world stage, unfortunately, the best players produced in this country are built up so much that they believe themselves to be better than they are and therefore don't work anymore. Stevie G La is a case in point. When he came onto the international scene he ran his arse off and showed the potential to be great, this year he strolled about for 75% of the time, had a few 'glory' shots when he should have passed and sprayed a couple of good passes around to remind everyone how good he could be if he could be bothered.
The biggest problem with English Players isn't a lack of ability, Switzerland beat Spain with a huge lack of ability, but they had hunger, they wanted to win, at no point did any of our better players look like they wanted to win, and for that they should never pull on an England shirt again. No England player should be paid anything for the match against Hungary, lets see how many of the prima donnas turn up for that one.
What exactly does the use of the rather abstract phrase 'compete on the world stage' mean Steve?
It appears that your point would appear to turn on this definition.
It appears that your point would appear to turn on this definition.
Capello names stars for the future
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/29062010/58/world-cup-2010-capello-names-stars-future.html
No Jack Rodwell?
No Leighton Baines?
No Tony Hibbert???
(Well if 'Row Z' Zamora is a future star, then don't laugh at Hibbo!)
Mike Allison. Hi again Mike. Maybe it would be more correct for me to say then that collectively, as a National team, we're not that good.
Granted we have some very good players (normally) in Rooney, Ashley Cole, Gerrard... but beyond those three I have to stick by my guns and say the rest aren't outstanding international players.
You know that saying, "the whole is equal to more than the sum of it's parts"... well, with regard to the England team, the opposite for me is the case.
Granted we have some very good players (normally) in Rooney, Ashley Cole, Gerrard... but beyond those three I have to stick by my guns and say the rest aren't outstanding international players.
You know that saying, "the whole is equal to more than the sum of it's parts"... well, with regard to the England team, the opposite for me is the case.
Alan Kirwin, absolutely correct, agree entirely. No passion, no desire, no leadership, no skill. No pride.
But plenty of inflated egos, arrogance, petulance and self-delusion.
We are attempting to play like we did in 1966, can't even get that right and the rest of the world has moved on... we are 50 years out of date.
There is an arrogance of expectation from the likes of England, France, Italy etc. What we needed to see was the arrogance of youth so evident in the unfavoured teams.
But plenty of inflated egos, arrogance, petulance and self-delusion.
We are attempting to play like we did in 1966, can't even get that right and the rest of the world has moved on... we are 50 years out of date.
There is an arrogance of expectation from the likes of England, France, Italy etc. What we needed to see was the arrogance of youth so evident in the unfavoured teams.
Brian, I agree with both of the following:
"Collectively, as a National team, we're not that good."
"You know that saying, "the whole is equal to more than the sum of it's parts"... well, with regard to the England team, the opposite for me is the case."
I used that phrase myself. My entire argument has been that the parts ARE good enough, and the whole we get out of them is less than the sum.
I would add Joe Cole to your list of three, and even Rio Ferdinand and Owen Hargreaves, although fitness over the last two years means these two are unlikely to be so again for England.
Looking forward, I believe Aaron Lennon also has the potential to be, but hasn't shown it on the international stage yet, and I'd love to have seen Adam Johnson and Theo Walcott sent out with no burden of expectation just to play freely and try stuff, as there's bags of potential there as well.
"Collectively, as a National team, we're not that good."
"You know that saying, "the whole is equal to more than the sum of it's parts"... well, with regard to the England team, the opposite for me is the case."
I used that phrase myself. My entire argument has been that the parts ARE good enough, and the whole we get out of them is less than the sum.
I would add Joe Cole to your list of three, and even Rio Ferdinand and Owen Hargreaves, although fitness over the last two years means these two are unlikely to be so again for England.
Looking forward, I believe Aaron Lennon also has the potential to be, but hasn't shown it on the international stage yet, and I'd love to have seen Adam Johnson and Theo Walcott sent out with no burden of expectation just to play freely and try stuff, as there's bags of potential there as well.
What I'd like to see happen is the ditching of the old brigade and the bringing in of new young talent al la Jack Rodwell and the ones you mention, Alan.
Be prepared to be beaten a good few times but stick with the youngsters and let them grow into a good team!
...and that's my last post on the "England" question.... roll on August.
COYB.
Be prepared to be beaten a good few times but stick with the youngsters and let them grow into a good team!
...and that's my last post on the "England" question.... roll on August.
COYB.
Brian, I agree with both of the following:
"Collectively, as a National team, we're not that good."
--------------------
Good grief. A hundred odd posts later.
"Collectively, as a National team, we're not that good."
--------------------
Good grief. A hundred odd posts later.
Then you never understood what I was saying at any stage, even when I stated it explicitly.
I was arguing about WHY we're not that good. As ALREADY stated (in post 94). You do need to read a bit more carefully Ciaran, honestly.
I was arguing about WHY we're not that good. As ALREADY stated (in post 94). You do need to read a bit more carefully Ciaran, honestly.
Mike,
As a few people have suggested on this thread already the reason we feel that we are not that good is because the players we have had at our disposal are simply not as good as the media and their weekly wage would suggest. You obviously do not agree with this opinion and presumably never will so it seems rather pointless to keep going over the same issue over and over again.
As a few people have suggested on this thread already the reason we feel that we are not that good is because the players we have had at our disposal are simply not as good as the media and their weekly wage would suggest. You obviously do not agree with this opinion and presumably never will so it seems rather pointless to keep going over the same issue over and over again.
"Then you never understood what I was saying at any stage, even when I stated it explicitly"
------------
Bollocks Mike. Don't get cute with me. You've just produced the biggest U turn I've seen in a long while.
That much will be obvious to anyone following this thread (with the possible exception of Mike Green) .
------------
Bollocks Mike. Don't get cute with me. You've just produced the biggest U turn I've seen in a long while.
That much will be obvious to anyone following this thread (with the possible exception of Mike Green) .
Ok in summary England are shite and underachieve.
However, if you are English console yourselves with the fact you will never be as shite as the Republic of Ireland (ranked an impressive 41st in the world), or indeed Scotland for that matter ranked at 43).
I don't like to talk of the shite on this site as a rule but just to lay to rest some of those misconceptions posted earlier,
i.e post 98 by Brendan O'Docherty which stated:
"If you MUST use the RS's European Cup successes to back up your argument on here, you would do well to remember that most of it was achieved when their teams consisted mostly of Scottish,Irish, and Welsh players"
And Post 103 by Ciaran McGlone:
".....and this is of course proven by the fact that a liverpool team populated by Scots, Irish and Welsh won the European cup a few times in the 70's and 80's"
In the redshite side that won the European Cup in 1977 there were 9 Englishmen in the starting 11 and 5 of the 5 subs were English. The manager was English.
In 1978 there were 8 English players in the staring 11 with 3 of the 5 subs being English. The manager was English.
1979 Forest won with 8 English players in the first 11 and 3 of the 5 subs English. The manager? English.
1980 Forest Again. 7 English in the starting Line up with 3 out of 5 subs being English. Manager was again English.
1981 the shite again. 8 English in the starting 11. 5 out of 5 subs English and the manager English.
1982 and Villa win it with 8 English in the starting line up and 4 out of 5 of the subs English. The manager was again English.
1984 was the first time that there were only 4 English players in thre shite's starting 11 with 2 out of 5 of the subs English. The manager was however English.
However, if you are English console yourselves with the fact you will never be as shite as the Republic of Ireland (ranked an impressive 41st in the world), or indeed Scotland for that matter ranked at 43).
I don't like to talk of the shite on this site as a rule but just to lay to rest some of those misconceptions posted earlier,
i.e post 98 by Brendan O'Docherty which stated:
"If you MUST use the RS's European Cup successes to back up your argument on here, you would do well to remember that most of it was achieved when their teams consisted mostly of Scottish,Irish, and Welsh players"
And Post 103 by Ciaran McGlone:
".....and this is of course proven by the fact that a liverpool team populated by Scots, Irish and Welsh won the European cup a few times in the 70's and 80's"
In the redshite side that won the European Cup in 1977 there were 9 Englishmen in the starting 11 and 5 of the 5 subs were English. The manager was English.
In 1978 there were 8 English players in the staring 11 with 3 of the 5 subs being English. The manager was English.
1979 Forest won with 8 English players in the first 11 and 3 of the 5 subs English. The manager? English.
1980 Forest Again. 7 English in the starting Line up with 3 out of 5 subs being English. Manager was again English.
1981 the shite again. 8 English in the starting 11. 5 out of 5 subs English and the manager English.
1982 and Villa win it with 8 English in the starting line up and 4 out of 5 of the subs English. The manager was again English.
1984 was the first time that there were only 4 English players in thre shite's starting 11 with 2 out of 5 of the subs English. The manager was however English.
Talk about twisting the argument. The Irish players were English born but were Ireland internationals. And your comment about us being 'shite' is so ridiculous it's not worthy of a response.
Ciaran, I'm sorry I thought that the concept of being able to compete on the world stage was an easy one to understand. It means that England is capable of producing players that are good enough to be competitive in big international tournaments. What we can't do is produce a team that is good enough to compete in big international tournaments.
Does that clear it up for you?
Does that clear it up for you?
Brendane post 129 if your post was a reapinse to me then, just for clarity, I haven't counted any Irish internationals as English in my totals for any of the sides so I'm not sure what you are trying to say?
And why is it ridiculous to call Ireland shite? They are shite and are a team of journeyman Premier and Championship players. I didn't poat it for a response just to remind those who seem so keen to lay into England to take a look at their own national sides.
And why is it ridiculous to call Ireland shite? They are shite and are a team of journeyman Premier and Championship players. I didn't poat it for a response just to remind those who seem so keen to lay into England to take a look at their own national sides.
"Ciaran, I'm sorry I thought that the concept of being able to compete on the world stage was an easy one to understand. It means that England is capable of producing players that are good enough to be competitive in big international tournaments. "
-----------------------
Well if that's the point you were making Steve then I certainly agree with it..It would be a bit foolhardy to suggest that England cannot compete in interntaional tournaments...in spite of the fact that they just did..
I'm not sure that has a great bearing on the direction of this debate though...but then again Mike Allison appears to have drastically changed his mind on what the causes of the recent failure were..so to be honest this thread is all over the place.
-----------------------
Well if that's the point you were making Steve then I certainly agree with it..It would be a bit foolhardy to suggest that England cannot compete in interntaional tournaments...in spite of the fact that they just did..
I'm not sure that has a great bearing on the direction of this debate though...but then again Mike Allison appears to have drastically changed his mind on what the causes of the recent failure were..so to be honest this thread is all over the place.
Yes Chris - Ireland are shite....It's amazing what you see with a little objectivity!
Try applying it elsewhere...
P.S As Brendan already suggests...counting Irishmen as Englishmen is a load of nonsense.
Try applying it elsewhere...
P.S As Brendan already suggests...counting Irishmen as Englishmen is a load of nonsense.
Ciaran no U-turn, no cuteness. My argument all the way through is that England have good enough players. I never extended this to say the team has always been good enough. You seem to be failing to recognise the difference between 'players' and 'team', even when various posters including myself talked about the 'whole' vs 'the sum of the parts'. You miss things even when they're explicitly stated and ignore them when they're repeated and the direct evidence pointed at. You also have a tendency to ignore relevant points in favour of minor details if it suits you and seem very much to argue just for the sake of arguing.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying all along, but that doesn't mean I've produced a U-turn, it just means I've repeated and explained it enough times for even you to understand it.
Instead of responding immediately to this, why don't you read through the whole thing again with this in mind?
I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I was saying all along, but that doesn't mean I've produced a U-turn, it just means I've repeated and explained it enough times for even you to understand it.
Instead of responding immediately to this, why don't you read through the whole thing again with this in mind?
Apologies Stefan, during my re-read I realised I'd ignored an entire post (74) from you.
Unfortunately you also seem to be guilty of not reading what I've written. You quite directly and specifically ignored the fact that my entire argument is all about WHY (or if you prefer WARUM - thanks for the advice) the England team aren't good enough, not that they are good enough. Even suggesting that the Germans do that and so should we. I am!
Your discounting of English success is pointless. I could go through any team who won anything and for most find a mitigating factors. The facts are the numbers, the number of trophies won, the number of teams reaching finals and semi-finals and in that English team compare with anyone's.
'Capello is a World Class manager' is absolutely NOT a matter of fact. It is matter of opinion. It may be a widely held one, it may be one where the top minds in World Football disagree with me, but it is not a question of fact. I would argue that his management of the England team at WC 2010 is itself evidence against the statement.
You also claim that English players are only coveted according to the English tabloids. This is NOT true. Madrid paper Marca (often seen as a mouthpiece for the club, and the paper who 'broke' interest in Figo, Zidane and Ronaldo to name just a few) within the last two months had a cover story about Steven Gerrard being a target for Real Madrid.
Steve McManaman WAS a succesful transfer, he won the Champions League and scored in the final. This is also a fact. I'm sure you'll tell me he was a passenger carried by his foreign teammates. That may even be true, but I don't think so, and the facts remain as they are.
Ronaldo, Robben and Xabi Alonso went, they don't have homes, families, friends and all their roots in England, one was even going home and the other to his boyhood team, of course they're more likely to go. Add in the well known phenomena of English players being generally reluctant to move abroad and failing to settle when they do and there is no mystery and I don't think you've made a good point.
Unfortunately you also seem to be guilty of not reading what I've written. You quite directly and specifically ignored the fact that my entire argument is all about WHY (or if you prefer WARUM - thanks for the advice) the England team aren't good enough, not that they are good enough. Even suggesting that the Germans do that and so should we. I am!
Your discounting of English success is pointless. I could go through any team who won anything and for most find a mitigating factors. The facts are the numbers, the number of trophies won, the number of teams reaching finals and semi-finals and in that English team compare with anyone's.
'Capello is a World Class manager' is absolutely NOT a matter of fact. It is matter of opinion. It may be a widely held one, it may be one where the top minds in World Football disagree with me, but it is not a question of fact. I would argue that his management of the England team at WC 2010 is itself evidence against the statement.
You also claim that English players are only coveted according to the English tabloids. This is NOT true. Madrid paper Marca (often seen as a mouthpiece for the club, and the paper who 'broke' interest in Figo, Zidane and Ronaldo to name just a few) within the last two months had a cover story about Steven Gerrard being a target for Real Madrid.
Steve McManaman WAS a succesful transfer, he won the Champions League and scored in the final. This is also a fact. I'm sure you'll tell me he was a passenger carried by his foreign teammates. That may even be true, but I don't think so, and the facts remain as they are.
Ronaldo, Robben and Xabi Alonso went, they don't have homes, families, friends and all their roots in England, one was even going home and the other to his boyhood team, of course they're more likely to go. Add in the well known phenomena of English players being generally reluctant to move abroad and failing to settle when they do and there is no mystery and I don't think you've made a good point.
Mike Allison #32
-------------------------
"I don't see how our players are any worse than the other countries.
"I believe the problem was the coach, Capello. "
"you can't blame a performance so pathetic as England's in that World Cup on the lack of ability of the players. "
Mike Allison #38
--------------------------------
"What do you blame it on then?
Abysmal management. A manager whose 'tactics' hindered his best players and whose man management seems to have had his players looking jaded and disinterested"
Mike Allison #45
----------------------------
"Why isn't it the manager's fault? How is that a delusion when he's the single most important influence on the team?"
Mike Allison #78
---------------------------------
"Which of the following players is average:
David James, Glen Johnson, Ashley Cole, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Owen Hargreaves, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Wayne Rooney."
Mike Allison #94
---------------------------
"I don't think it's because the players simply aren't good enough."
A rather obvious example that you were contending that the Failure of England had very little to do with the quality of the players... and there was a hell of a lot more... but I was getting tired cutting and pasting...
And then you eventually relent and come out with this, which can only be described as a U-Turn of epic proportions!
Mike Allison #22
-------------------
"Brian, I agree with both of the following:
"Collectively, as a National team, we're not that good."
Please stop telling people they cannot read, Mike.
-------------------------
"I don't see how our players are any worse than the other countries.
"I believe the problem was the coach, Capello. "
"you can't blame a performance so pathetic as England's in that World Cup on the lack of ability of the players. "
Mike Allison #38
--------------------------------
"What do you blame it on then?
Abysmal management. A manager whose 'tactics' hindered his best players and whose man management seems to have had his players looking jaded and disinterested"
Mike Allison #45
----------------------------
"Why isn't it the manager's fault? How is that a delusion when he's the single most important influence on the team?"
Mike Allison #78
---------------------------------
"Which of the following players is average:
David James, Glen Johnson, Ashley Cole, John Terry, Rio Ferdinand, Owen Hargreaves, Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, Joe Cole, Aaron Lennon, Wayne Rooney."
Mike Allison #94
---------------------------
"I don't think it's because the players simply aren't good enough."
A rather obvious example that you were contending that the Failure of England had very little to do with the quality of the players... and there was a hell of a lot more... but I was getting tired cutting and pasting...
And then you eventually relent and come out with this, which can only be described as a U-Turn of epic proportions!
Mike Allison #22
-------------------
"Brian, I agree with both of the following:
"Collectively, as a National team, we're not that good."
Please stop telling people they cannot read, Mike.
Ciaran - post 132. As I have stated in my original post (128) England are shite. As such, I have applied this somewhere else.
As I pointed out in post 131 I have not counted any Irishmen as Englishmen in my original post. Can I therefore get you to admit (for what would be the first time ever on ToffeeWeb) that you are actually wrong and have apology? Didn't think so.
As I pointed out in post 131 I have not counted any Irishmen as Englishmen in my original post. Can I therefore get you to admit (for what would be the first time ever on ToffeeWeb) that you are actually wrong and have apology? Didn't think so.
Ciaran, are you serious? I can't believe you've just wasted your time doing that!
Read your own post (136), then read my post (134), then understand the difference between 'players' and 'team' and the references to 'the whole' and 'the sum of the parts'. My contention, all the way through, as stated consistently, is that although the team may not be good enough, it isn't because the players are not good enough.
Embarrassing.
Read your own post (136), then read my post (134), then understand the difference between 'players' and 'team' and the references to 'the whole' and 'the sum of the parts'. My contention, all the way through, as stated consistently, is that although the team may not be good enough, it isn't because the players are not good enough.
Embarrassing.
Me, Post 58: "There may be a fundamental English problem, I think it's mostly tactical, but it could also be mental. One thing I'm sure it's not is the ability of the players."
Me, Post 72: "Again (!), I'm not saying there isn't some sort of fundamental problem with the England team which means they don't win things over the years, I just can't see any reason to suppose it's talent or ability."
I've held a consistent position that I think our PLAYERS are good enough, they are 'there or thereabouts' with the rest of the world, but they haven't formed a good enough team.
The quality of the team is not always relational to the quality of the players in it. I'm sorry if this seems condescending or patronising but you seem to be missing such obvious points. There's also a different relationship between quality and success. Spain (most tournaments until 2008), France (2002, 2010) and Greece (2004) are all examples where the quality, and in Greece's case especially, the successes of the teams were not directly relational to the quality of the players.
Do you accept this? Or will you accuse me of 'Straw Man'-ing again (ironic as you do that more than anybody else, there are 3 or 4 examples on this thread) and claim you never said there wasn't? Do you now understand the distinction between talking about the talent and ability of the players and the quality of the team they become?
Me, Post 72: "Again (!), I'm not saying there isn't some sort of fundamental problem with the England team which means they don't win things over the years, I just can't see any reason to suppose it's talent or ability."
I've held a consistent position that I think our PLAYERS are good enough, they are 'there or thereabouts' with the rest of the world, but they haven't formed a good enough team.
The quality of the team is not always relational to the quality of the players in it. I'm sorry if this seems condescending or patronising but you seem to be missing such obvious points. There's also a different relationship between quality and success. Spain (most tournaments until 2008), France (2002, 2010) and Greece (2004) are all examples where the quality, and in Greece's case especially, the successes of the teams were not directly relational to the quality of the players.
Do you accept this? Or will you accuse me of 'Straw Man'-ing again (ironic as you do that more than anybody else, there are 3 or 4 examples on this thread) and claim you never said there wasn't? Do you now understand the distinction between talking about the talent and ability of the players and the quality of the team they become?
Chris Leyland
So people such as Whelan and Lawrenson were not in the RS European Cup winning teams? As you seem to be a student of the history of LFC, I'm just going to have to take your word for it that they weren't, Because unlike you, I sure as hell could not be arsed checking who was in the starting line-up for that particular football club in any given game. And of course you only mention starting line-ups, not players who played in the earlier rounds. Perhaps you would like to check that as well?
Who cares anyway? This is a thread about the England national team. Whatever the nationalities of those RS players, it is only the question of who played for the England national team that is relevant to the discussion.
To try to find consolation in the fact that, as you admitted, England are 'shite', by saying that other teams are more 'shite' because they are lower in the FIFA world rankings is scraping the barrel to put it mildly. I happen to think that this Ireland team is not 'shite' actually. We have a decent side. We have a manager who has a system and much to the chagrin of many supporters (including myself) he picks players who will fit into his system. Results have improved dramatically of his 2 years in charge and we are now looking like quite a decent outfit. Your attempt to portray us a team of 'journeymen Premiership and Championship players' is quite pathetic. At least our players, in common with most nations, raise their game when they play for their country. They show a bit of pride in the shirt. Unlike your team of over-paid prima donnas who look like they've never met before when they take to the pitch, and then defend like a pub team. You can take consolation in the world rankings as much as you want, but there is no way an Ireland team would be beaten in the manner England where slaughtered by Germany.
It's time you dropped the superiority complex and showed a bit of humility; then you might begin to tackle the problem.If you can't wake up and smell the coffee regarding your own team, then you will continue in this predicament .
I think it was Phil who summed it up recently on these pages: "England have become the Liverpool of international football". Perfectly put.
"if you are English console yourselves with the fact you will never be as shite as the Republic of Ireland"......get a fucking grip. COYBIG.
So people such as Whelan and Lawrenson were not in the RS European Cup winning teams? As you seem to be a student of the history of LFC, I'm just going to have to take your word for it that they weren't, Because unlike you, I sure as hell could not be arsed checking who was in the starting line-up for that particular football club in any given game. And of course you only mention starting line-ups, not players who played in the earlier rounds. Perhaps you would like to check that as well?
Who cares anyway? This is a thread about the England national team. Whatever the nationalities of those RS players, it is only the question of who played for the England national team that is relevant to the discussion.
To try to find consolation in the fact that, as you admitted, England are 'shite', by saying that other teams are more 'shite' because they are lower in the FIFA world rankings is scraping the barrel to put it mildly. I happen to think that this Ireland team is not 'shite' actually. We have a decent side. We have a manager who has a system and much to the chagrin of many supporters (including myself) he picks players who will fit into his system. Results have improved dramatically of his 2 years in charge and we are now looking like quite a decent outfit. Your attempt to portray us a team of 'journeymen Premiership and Championship players' is quite pathetic. At least our players, in common with most nations, raise their game when they play for their country. They show a bit of pride in the shirt. Unlike your team of over-paid prima donnas who look like they've never met before when they take to the pitch, and then defend like a pub team. You can take consolation in the world rankings as much as you want, but there is no way an Ireland team would be beaten in the manner England where slaughtered by Germany.
It's time you dropped the superiority complex and showed a bit of humility; then you might begin to tackle the problem.If you can't wake up and smell the coffee regarding your own team, then you will continue in this predicament .
I think it was Phil who summed it up recently on these pages: "England have become the Liverpool of international football". Perfectly put.
"if you are English console yourselves with the fact you will never be as shite as the Republic of Ireland"......get a fucking grip. COYBIG.
Brendan, so what you are saying is that is the System that Ireland use, and the mental attitude rather than the ability of the players that is making Ireland such a good prospect at the moment?
If that is the case, why is it so hard for some people to accept that the opposite is the case for England, whilst the players have got the ability it is the system and mental attitude that makes the team shite?
As for Ireland not capitulating the way England did, I wholeheartedly agree.
If that is the case, why is it so hard for some people to accept that the opposite is the case for England, whilst the players have got the ability it is the system and mental attitude that makes the team shite?
As for Ireland not capitulating the way England did, I wholeheartedly agree.
Steve
I wouldn't put everything down to Trap's system. It is a typical Italian defensive- based set-up, with the idea being that a 1-0 is good enough. It involves leaving out the more creative central midfielders for 2 ball winners, and relying on the flanks for the creative spark. But it increasingly produced results as the players have adapted more and more to it.
To me England don't appear to have a system. The only apparent tactic against Germany seemed to be to get it out to Milner so that he could cross it for players to run on to. The rest of it seemed to be the likes of Upson or Barry hittting long balls upfield which invariably went out for goal-kicks.
Regarding the mental side of it, Ireland are only one example of a country whose players seem to raise their game when playing for their national team. There are many nations in this WC that have done the same. I mean look at the South Koreans - ran and ran and expended every last drop of energy for their shirt. The Mexicans, the Chileans, I don't need to go on. England don't do it.
But you say the players have got the ability and the problem is the mental attitude and system. Personally,as I said to Mike Allison on another thread, I think it is mostly psychological. But I can understand it when Ciarán says that the players are simply not good enough. You have to take the package as a whole; i.e. good enough mentally and ability-wise, and they clearly or not. They have maybe 2 or 3 very good players, who you don't need me to name. The rest are fairly average for me. For example, Glen 'Is my hair OK' Johnson against the USA was passing the ball to the opposition at the edge of his own penalty area! They don't know who their best 'keeper is simply because none of the 'keepers they have are that great. That is always a bad sign, when you don't have a steady 'keeper. Basically they were depending on Rooney to be firing on all cylinders, and when he didn't they were phucked.
You would have thought they would have had sports psychology, but it seems not. But I wouldn't say that their mental shortcomings was the only reason for their demise. After 4 such dismal performances, there surely must be more to it than that.
I wouldn't put everything down to Trap's system. It is a typical Italian defensive- based set-up, with the idea being that a 1-0 is good enough. It involves leaving out the more creative central midfielders for 2 ball winners, and relying on the flanks for the creative spark. But it increasingly produced results as the players have adapted more and more to it.
To me England don't appear to have a system. The only apparent tactic against Germany seemed to be to get it out to Milner so that he could cross it for players to run on to. The rest of it seemed to be the likes of Upson or Barry hittting long balls upfield which invariably went out for goal-kicks.
Regarding the mental side of it, Ireland are only one example of a country whose players seem to raise their game when playing for their national team. There are many nations in this WC that have done the same. I mean look at the South Koreans - ran and ran and expended every last drop of energy for their shirt. The Mexicans, the Chileans, I don't need to go on. England don't do it.
But you say the players have got the ability and the problem is the mental attitude and system. Personally,as I said to Mike Allison on another thread, I think it is mostly psychological. But I can understand it when Ciarán says that the players are simply not good enough. You have to take the package as a whole; i.e. good enough mentally and ability-wise, and they clearly or not. They have maybe 2 or 3 very good players, who you don't need me to name. The rest are fairly average for me. For example, Glen 'Is my hair OK' Johnson against the USA was passing the ball to the opposition at the edge of his own penalty area! They don't know who their best 'keeper is simply because none of the 'keepers they have are that great. That is always a bad sign, when you don't have a steady 'keeper. Basically they were depending on Rooney to be firing on all cylinders, and when he didn't they were phucked.
You would have thought they would have had sports psychology, but it seems not. But I wouldn't say that their mental shortcomings was the only reason for their demise. After 4 such dismal performances, there surely must be more to it than that.
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1 Posted 28/06/2010 at 06:26:32
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More likely, once the Premier League gets going again, fans will be conned into the belief that the Greatest Show On Earth has all the answers, and that Johnny Foreigner just got lucky (for the umpteenth time).