Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Feel the fear; conquer the fear
61 Comments: There can be few Evertonians who are looking towards the visit to Chelsea without some trepidation. Rightly so; they have quality players who, when allowed to play, can take a team apart. Parking the bus and hoping to nick a goal won't work. Neither will a gung-ho Blackpool-style effort.
John Terry is ageing and one of these days will be exposed as over the hill; they are vulnerable at the back when pressurised. We have players who can hurt them and on Saturday they must not be on the bench. I would make two changes from the Liverpool game: Drenthe and Barkley for Cahill and Osman.
We will likely be defending for long periods and we need to hit them with pace. Now is Drenthe's time. Barkley has the arrogance of youth and I doubt he will feel any fear, he can offer something different. Rodwell must see this game as a real bonus and I expect something special from him.
We have good players but a defeat similar to that against City would be unpalatable and utterly demoralizing. Keep it tight, yes, but at least start with an eleven capable of winning.
Andy Crooks, Posted 11/10/2011 at 09:27:57
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Brian Hill
2 Posted 11/10/2011 at 16:27:16
2 Posted 11/10/2011 at 16:27:16
Nice idea, Andy, but how many times have there been similar pre-match threads seeking a more expansive line-up? The actual team will be exactly as Anthony predicts in his response. As always.
David Donnellan
3 Posted 11/10/2011 at 17:18:34
3 Posted 11/10/2011 at 17:18:34
I certainly don't think Chelsea are outstanding this season & we haven't done too badly at Stamford Bridge in recent years. We have a chance; however, as already mentioned, we will probably go there with the mindset of keeping it tight & maybe nicking a result. Personally, I think we will get a 1-1 draw.
We have to start involving Vellios more; I think he has the potential to be a top striker: he is mobile, no slouch, strong in the air, as well as physically strong, good on the floor & he has an eye for goal & desire to get in the box on the end of crosses. I've been impressed with him, we could have a real talent if he is coached correctly.
We have to start involving Vellios more; I think he has the potential to be a top striker: he is mobile, no slouch, strong in the air, as well as physically strong, good on the floor & he has an eye for goal & desire to get in the box on the end of crosses. I've been impressed with him, we could have a real talent if he is coached correctly.
Stephen Kenny
4 Posted 11/10/2011 at 17:49:48
4 Posted 11/10/2011 at 17:49:48
I was about to post an article about this myself but may as well just comment on this.
I think if we go to Chelsea with the same 'nick a point' attitude we take to Old Trafford, City and Anfield, then we will again be coming home with our tails between our legs.
We have proved over the past few years that, on our day, we can beat Chelsea. While I don't for a minute believe we could or should beat them every time we play them, I don't see any reason to fear them or park the bus.
I'd like us to go out and try to play our natural game. Rodwell and Fellaini are starting to look like they can control midfield, we have dangerous players on the flanks and subs who can change games. Moyes's tic-tacs and formation are tailor-made for this type of game. The only likely issue I see is at the back. Personally, I'd bring Neville in for Hibbo, as he offers a lot more talk and organization, and Heitinga in for Jag, because he's stunk all season and it may be the kick up the arse he needs.
The poll that was run recently showed a lot of ToffeeWebbers were happy with the way the team was set out for the City game. I'd like to ask them, would you be happy to see us go to Chelsea with the same set-up and formation we took to City?
I think if we go to Chelsea with the same 'nick a point' attitude we take to Old Trafford, City and Anfield, then we will again be coming home with our tails between our legs.
We have proved over the past few years that, on our day, we can beat Chelsea. While I don't for a minute believe we could or should beat them every time we play them, I don't see any reason to fear them or park the bus.
I'd like us to go out and try to play our natural game. Rodwell and Fellaini are starting to look like they can control midfield, we have dangerous players on the flanks and subs who can change games. Moyes's tic-tacs and formation are tailor-made for this type of game. The only likely issue I see is at the back. Personally, I'd bring Neville in for Hibbo, as he offers a lot more talk and organization, and Heitinga in for Jag, because he's stunk all season and it may be the kick up the arse he needs.
The poll that was run recently showed a lot of ToffeeWebbers were happy with the way the team was set out for the City game. I'd like to ask them, would you be happy to see us go to Chelsea with the same set-up and formation we took to City?
Nick Entwistle
5 Posted 11/10/2011 at 18:04:37
5 Posted 11/10/2011 at 18:04:37
Stephen, the poll actually said 'Do you agree' with the way the team was set out.
I didn't agree with it, but was happy to see it implemented. Go figure!
I didn't agree with it, but was happy to see it implemented. Go figure!
Kevin Hudson
6 Posted 11/10/2011 at 18:29:16
6 Posted 11/10/2011 at 18:29:16
We have a pretty good record against them in recent seasons ? so fingers crossed!
Stephen Kenny
7 Posted 11/10/2011 at 19:32:37
7 Posted 11/10/2011 at 19:32:37
Nick,
It weren't implemented though, we got beat.
Happy, agree, support etc. splitting hairs IMO.
Would you like to see us go there and set our stall out that way again?
It weren't implemented though, we got beat.
Happy, agree, support etc. splitting hairs IMO.
Would you like to see us go there and set our stall out that way again?
Richard Dodd
8 Posted 11/10/2011 at 19:37:30
8 Posted 11/10/2011 at 19:37:30
Almost certainly an unchanged side ? although Barkely may come in for an injured Rodwell. Expect the same tactics with which the manager was highly pleased with against City.
Why change a formula that ALMOST saw us grab a point?
Why change a formula that ALMOST saw us grab a point?
Dave Wilson
9 Posted 11/10/2011 at 19:21:54
9 Posted 11/10/2011 at 19:21:54
I think the real cowardice is in this "let's have a go at attacking them. I`d rather go down fighting" attitude.
I don't see why we should accept going down at all.
Moyes owes the Chelsea crowd nothing. His first and only obligation is to the Evertonian, to make sure Everton are always in the game, to make life as difficult as possible for Chelsea.
A game of "you play/we play" will nearly always favour the more talented team... and that ain't us.
Much has been made about our recent defeat against City, but few managers ? if any ? can match Moyes's record there in recent seasons, a record that may well have been stretched but for a poxy deflected goal and some spineless refereeing.
I`ll settle for a fair referee and a repeat of the defiance we have shown in our visits to the Bridge in recent seasons ? including last season's cup win.
Only winning counts, give me an ugly win over a pretty defeat all day long.
I don't see why we should accept going down at all.
Moyes owes the Chelsea crowd nothing. His first and only obligation is to the Evertonian, to make sure Everton are always in the game, to make life as difficult as possible for Chelsea.
A game of "you play/we play" will nearly always favour the more talented team... and that ain't us.
Much has been made about our recent defeat against City, but few managers ? if any ? can match Moyes's record there in recent seasons, a record that may well have been stretched but for a poxy deflected goal and some spineless refereeing.
I`ll settle for a fair referee and a repeat of the defiance we have shown in our visits to the Bridge in recent seasons ? including last season's cup win.
Only winning counts, give me an ugly win over a pretty defeat all day long.
Mike Bates
10 Posted 11/10/2011 at 20:09:15
10 Posted 11/10/2011 at 20:09:15
They don't like it up 'em!
Peter Webster
11 Posted 11/10/2011 at 20:07:23
11 Posted 11/10/2011 at 20:07:23
I was puzzled by the set up against City. Granted they've got a few good players in since last time we played them, but surely the facts speak for themselves. We lost to them, what, once in 8 games? ? playing proper going for it football. Mancini couldn't handle it and we were pretty much City's bogey team, consistently. We took the piss out of them a few times as well, I remember.
So why go ultra defensive against them all of a sudden? Everyone behind the ball at all times, lone isolated striker etc etc. Like we were shit scared of them. Did my head in.
I'm rambling. Point is, attack Chelsea. Don't shit it from the off, like against City. Fucking Mancini. He didn't beat us... Moyes did.
So why go ultra defensive against them all of a sudden? Everyone behind the ball at all times, lone isolated striker etc etc. Like we were shit scared of them. Did my head in.
I'm rambling. Point is, attack Chelsea. Don't shit it from the off, like against City. Fucking Mancini. He didn't beat us... Moyes did.
Stephen Kenny
12 Posted 11/10/2011 at 20:25:00
12 Posted 11/10/2011 at 20:25:00
Neither do I Mike, But I support your right to.
Nick Entwistle
13 Posted 11/10/2011 at 20:42:52
13 Posted 11/10/2011 at 20:42:52
Stephen, I wouldn't like it, though would support and agree with it, not that it would make me happy. How about that?
Ray Robinson
14 Posted 11/10/2011 at 21:32:20
14 Posted 11/10/2011 at 21:32:20
Well we have drawn the last 5 league matches there and a Cup tie too, so the tactics employed there seem to have worked to a degree.
James Martin
15 Posted 11/10/2011 at 21:33:41
15 Posted 11/10/2011 at 21:33:41
To be honest, I've never understood the ultra-defensive mindset going into a game. It's not as though we even have a good defence anymore. Even with every man back behind the ball, we have still conceded in nearly every game.
Our strength lies in a strong central midfiled with a whole wealth of options yet all our midfield two ever seem to do is mark space in front of the central defenders, never putting a tackle in, just running around making a bit of a nuisance. Its such a waste of Rodwell's talents.
I'd love to see a return to the formation he had out when we beat them and Man U with Arteta and Osman in the middle an two wide men. Not a holding mid in sight and our defence came out keeping hold of the ball and putting them under pressure.
Our strength lies in a strong central midfiled with a whole wealth of options yet all our midfield two ever seem to do is mark space in front of the central defenders, never putting a tackle in, just running around making a bit of a nuisance. Its such a waste of Rodwell's talents.
I'd love to see a return to the formation he had out when we beat them and Man U with Arteta and Osman in the middle an two wide men. Not a holding mid in sight and our defence came out keeping hold of the ball and putting them under pressure.
Paul Brannan
16 Posted 11/10/2011 at 21:40:19
16 Posted 11/10/2011 at 21:40:19
Our biggest problem could be the ref; once you cut one, all the bastards bleed.
Noel Lynam
17 Posted 11/10/2011 at 22:49:59
17 Posted 11/10/2011 at 22:49:59
I'd agree with Andy's choice with one exception: Heitinga (fitness permitting) in for Jagielka.
I don't expect to see it happen though and fear it may be the third round of the FA Cup before Moyes "risks" starting Drenthe again.
I don't expect to see it happen though and fear it may be the third round of the FA Cup before Moyes "risks" starting Drenthe again.
Mick Davies
18 Posted 12/10/2011 at 04:24:04
18 Posted 12/10/2011 at 04:24:04
I agree that Neville must come in for the useless Hibbert. All he does is throw himself to the floor, usually away from the ball or throw his leg up can-can style. He is nowhere near PL class and Nev can do all the motivational and organisational work that we need right now. Nev and Seamus work a lot better together too. I also think Jags needs a rest, he's been covering the right back spot as well as his own position for too long.
Vijay Badhan
19 Posted 12/10/2011 at 05:47:28
19 Posted 12/10/2011 at 05:47:28
I would drop Jags as I think he is over-rated and isn't as good as Heitinga.
Hibbert and Osman would not even be at the club if I was in charge, I really don't understand why so many Evertonians rate Hibbo and Osman because, every time I watch them (except for the odd game for Osman) they have been crap.
I also feel Moyes is now a hinderance to the attacking football we could be capable of playing if only he would have the bollocks to play the correct players in their natural positions but I am pretty sure he will play a 5-man midfield with one striker trying to do everything by himself and failing miserably, as we did at City and Liverpool.
I can't stop supporting this club no matter how hard I try but it angers and frustrates me that Moyes has such a negative attitude and always plays the pathetic 'poor underdog' card, I am sick of it and the predictability of it all!
For what its worth, my team would be:
Howard;
Coleman, Heitinga, Distin, Baines;
Barkley, Rodwell, Fellaini, Gueye;
Vellios, Saha.
... even though I know there is no chance of this.
Hibbert and Osman would not even be at the club if I was in charge, I really don't understand why so many Evertonians rate Hibbo and Osman because, every time I watch them (except for the odd game for Osman) they have been crap.
I also feel Moyes is now a hinderance to the attacking football we could be capable of playing if only he would have the bollocks to play the correct players in their natural positions but I am pretty sure he will play a 5-man midfield with one striker trying to do everything by himself and failing miserably, as we did at City and Liverpool.
I can't stop supporting this club no matter how hard I try but it angers and frustrates me that Moyes has such a negative attitude and always plays the pathetic 'poor underdog' card, I am sick of it and the predictability of it all!
For what its worth, my team would be:
Howard;
Coleman, Heitinga, Distin, Baines;
Barkley, Rodwell, Fellaini, Gueye;
Vellios, Saha.
... even though I know there is no chance of this.
Simon Harris
20 Posted 12/10/2011 at 06:34:50
20 Posted 12/10/2011 at 06:34:50
The same team that started against the RS for me.
The City game was a major disappointment. It was a drab affair from start to finish. Maybe Moyes's hands were tied, but he effectively dropped his only recognised striker for a right back in the only change to a starting 11 that won a year earlier.
We just didn't have an outlet, no pressure relief valve, and consequently had to defend for 90 mins against an admittedly improved City team. Oh and Neville was absolutely dreadful in midfield and rightly dropped for the next game.
So stick with the same team if all fully fit, and hopefully with a little more fire power upfront in Saha this time, may see us nick a draw or god willing 3 increasingly invaluable points.
The City game was a major disappointment. It was a drab affair from start to finish. Maybe Moyes's hands were tied, but he effectively dropped his only recognised striker for a right back in the only change to a starting 11 that won a year earlier.
We just didn't have an outlet, no pressure relief valve, and consequently had to defend for 90 mins against an admittedly improved City team. Oh and Neville was absolutely dreadful in midfield and rightly dropped for the next game.
So stick with the same team if all fully fit, and hopefully with a little more fire power upfront in Saha this time, may see us nick a draw or god willing 3 increasingly invaluable points.
Simon Harris
21 Posted 12/10/2011 at 06:56:41
21 Posted 12/10/2011 at 06:56:41
oops..... and rightly dropped for the next game.
So stick with the same team if all fully fit, and hopefully with a little more fire power upfront in Saha this time, may see us nick a draw or god willing 3 increasingly invaluable points.
So stick with the same team if all fully fit, and hopefully with a little more fire power upfront in Saha this time, may see us nick a draw or god willing 3 increasingly invaluable points.
Stephen Kenny
22 Posted 12/10/2011 at 08:23:46
22 Posted 12/10/2011 at 08:23:46
Fair enough, Nick ? you obviously think that's the best way for us to get a point there?
I personally think we need to carry a goal threat to get anything away from home against good sides, the side put out at City didn't even look like getting in their half after 5 mins.
I'd sooner we play to win, always.
I personally think we need to carry a goal threat to get anything away from home against good sides, the side put out at City didn't even look like getting in their half after 5 mins.
I'd sooner we play to win, always.
Stephen Kenny
23 Posted 12/10/2011 at 08:27:42
23 Posted 12/10/2011 at 08:27:42
Dave,
You play/we play is a nonsense. That doesn't have to happen.
When Arsenal played Barca they thought it was a game of you play/we play. Except Barca had a game of we play/you don't play. When they had they ball they played good football and stretched Arsenal. When they lost it, they were like rabid dogs trying to get it back.
We need to try and do something similar against really good sides. It won't be easy but hoofing the ball back to the opposition constantly, defending on your 18-yard line, and having no one up top who can relieve the pressure by holding the ball up or putting their defence back with pace to chase a ball over the top just increases the likelihood of conceding.
Our defence is not good enough to play that way any more. The only game we kept a clean sheet we conceded two pens.
You play/we play is a nonsense. That doesn't have to happen.
When Arsenal played Barca they thought it was a game of you play/we play. Except Barca had a game of we play/you don't play. When they had they ball they played good football and stretched Arsenal. When they lost it, they were like rabid dogs trying to get it back.
We need to try and do something similar against really good sides. It won't be easy but hoofing the ball back to the opposition constantly, defending on your 18-yard line, and having no one up top who can relieve the pressure by holding the ball up or putting their defence back with pace to chase a ball over the top just increases the likelihood of conceding.
Our defence is not good enough to play that way any more. The only game we kept a clean sheet we conceded two pens.
Alan Clarke
24 Posted 12/10/2011 at 09:27:13
24 Posted 12/10/2011 at 09:27:13
I would probably play 4-6-0 for this one and try and show as little attacking intent as possible. Moyes should only be heard shouting "Get back" at any players daring to go near the centre circle. We might get lucky and snatch a goal from a set-piece but it's unlikely because I'd only ever push Cahill up for a corner or freekick.
I have decided to follow the lead from other Evertonians who justified Moyes's tactics against Man City. We can't expect to beat Chelsea when they've got so much money and we haven't.
In fact, because every other team in the league outspent us this summer, we shouldn't expect to beat anyone and therefore Moyes should just stick to 4-6-0.
I have decided to follow the lead from other Evertonians who justified Moyes's tactics against Man City. We can't expect to beat Chelsea when they've got so much money and we haven't.
In fact, because every other team in the league outspent us this summer, we shouldn't expect to beat anyone and therefore Moyes should just stick to 4-6-0.
Tony J Williams
25 Posted 12/10/2011 at 12:26:27
25 Posted 12/10/2011 at 12:26:27
Just fecking go for it, who gives a toss if we lose 4/5/6 nil every game, give us some entertaining footy and who cares if we get relegated?
Just weaken the already shite midfield and play two forwards, all these international managers are fools playing their 4-5-1 (turning to 4-3-3), what do they know?
Stick to the Mike Bassett England way of four four fecking two....it always works in the Euros and the World Cup when we come up against good sides.....
Just weaken the already shite midfield and play two forwards, all these international managers are fools playing their 4-5-1 (turning to 4-3-3), what do they know?
Stick to the Mike Bassett England way of four four fecking two....it always works in the Euros and the World Cup when we come up against good sides.....
Andy Crooks
26 Posted 12/10/2011 at 12:39:33
26 Posted 12/10/2011 at 12:39:33
Tony, I wasn't suggesting 4-4-2. I was suggesting playing Drenthe wide left turning to 4-3-3.
Stephen Kenny
27 Posted 12/10/2011 at 12:44:23
27 Posted 12/10/2011 at 12:44:23
Tony,
Who are you ranting at???
I've just gone right through this thread and can't find one person who says "just fecking go for it" or play "4-4-2"
Who are you ranting at???
I've just gone right through this thread and can't find one person who says "just fecking go for it" or play "4-4-2"
Tom Bowers
28 Posted 12/10/2011 at 13:14:58
28 Posted 12/10/2011 at 13:14:58
Sure it's a game away and at Chelski who, like Redshite, Manure and Arsenal, have money to burn, which keeps them at the top but Everton usually play strong against them and only a pathetic referee lost us the game against Redshite.
Despite Moyes's stubborness with his tactics and team selection we may again frustrate Chelski but we cannot concede early and have to chase the game because they will then bury us.
The new boys have to start but Moyes will resist it again, staying with his favourites and therefore it will be a nailbiting game as long as we are in it.
I would like to think we can turn a corner which would be great but common sense says we are a limited team and good results will be few and far between this season.
Despite Moyes's stubborness with his tactics and team selection we may again frustrate Chelski but we cannot concede early and have to chase the game because they will then bury us.
The new boys have to start but Moyes will resist it again, staying with his favourites and therefore it will be a nailbiting game as long as we are in it.
I would like to think we can turn a corner which would be great but common sense says we are a limited team and good results will be few and far between this season.
Alan Clarke
29 Posted 12/10/2011 at 13:23:37
29 Posted 12/10/2011 at 13:23:37
Tony, it would be nice to even play 4-5-1. There's only 1 international manager, Craig Levein who's dared to play 4-6-0 and he was rightfully strongly criticised for it. Yet Moyes has no problems playing that system and even gets praised for it from some fans.
Anthony Hughes
30 Posted 12/10/2011 at 13:38:04
30 Posted 12/10/2011 at 13:38:04
4-5-1 is a good formation to enable attacking and defending. With pace in the two wide positions of midfield to assist the forward, two holding midfielders to cover defence if required, and the third central midfielder to play forward of these two and play as the creative influence just behind your forward.
More often than not, Moyes's selection of players to play in the postions doesn't make sense. The constant playing of Osman out wide where the lad has no pace just doesn't cut it.
Howard
Neville Jagielka Distin Baines
Fellaini Rodwell
Coleman Drenthe
Barkley/Osman
Saha.
A line up like above would give us balance going forward. Take your pick of Ossie or Barkley to play the creative role. Just play players in their best positions.
More often than not, Moyes's selection of players to play in the postions doesn't make sense. The constant playing of Osman out wide where the lad has no pace just doesn't cut it.
Howard
Neville Jagielka Distin Baines
Fellaini Rodwell
Coleman Drenthe
Barkley/Osman
Saha.
A line up like above would give us balance going forward. Take your pick of Ossie or Barkley to play the creative role. Just play players in their best positions.
Anthony Hughes
31 Posted 12/10/2011 at 13:49:50
31 Posted 12/10/2011 at 13:49:50
Sorry, Coleman and Drenthe should be either side of Fellaini and Rodwell in that above team.
Kevin Tully
32 Posted 12/10/2011 at 14:07:23
32 Posted 12/10/2011 at 14:07:23
I bet you Fellaini has a blinder on Saturday, just enough time time to impress before his move in January.
Dave Wilson
33 Posted 12/10/2011 at 14:40:31
33 Posted 12/10/2011 at 14:40:31
Stephen
When really stretching the imagination I believe it is sometimes possible to compare Evertons work ethic when we dont have the ball to that of Barca`s, but no matter how hard I try I cant make any comparrison between the two teams when in possession.
If Barca are your yardstick, you`ll continue to be dissapointed.
Nobody moaned when Moyes sent a side out without Beckford, Saha and Yakubu at Eastlands last season, nor did anyone complain about him employing similar tactics twice at the Bridge. The complaints only started when after 4 years of huffing and puffing city finally beat us - and how poxy was that ?
I believe a cavalry charge against top teams to be tantamount to surrender, they dont even do it when they play each other.
Of course we can play - we are going have too - but to win this game we first need to stay in it.
You say we are no longer defensively good enough, but we are still defending with the same players that got us results there last season.
That said, I would agree with you about Jagielka and start with JH.
Its all about results, if we win nobody will care how, if we dont . .
When really stretching the imagination I believe it is sometimes possible to compare Evertons work ethic when we dont have the ball to that of Barca`s, but no matter how hard I try I cant make any comparrison between the two teams when in possession.
If Barca are your yardstick, you`ll continue to be dissapointed.
Nobody moaned when Moyes sent a side out without Beckford, Saha and Yakubu at Eastlands last season, nor did anyone complain about him employing similar tactics twice at the Bridge. The complaints only started when after 4 years of huffing and puffing city finally beat us - and how poxy was that ?
I believe a cavalry charge against top teams to be tantamount to surrender, they dont even do it when they play each other.
Of course we can play - we are going have too - but to win this game we first need to stay in it.
You say we are no longer defensively good enough, but we are still defending with the same players that got us results there last season.
That said, I would agree with you about Jagielka and start with JH.
Its all about results, if we win nobody will care how, if we dont . .
Jon Ferguson
34 Posted 12/10/2011 at 16:03:09
34 Posted 12/10/2011 at 16:03:09
Howard
Hibbert Jagielka Distin Baines
Felliani
Coleman Barkley Rodwell Drenthe
Saha
Please
Hibbert Jagielka Distin Baines
Felliani
Coleman Barkley Rodwell Drenthe
Saha
Please
Richard Reeves
35 Posted 12/10/2011 at 15:46:43
35 Posted 12/10/2011 at 15:46:43
You seem fairly optimistic Andy ,however,you know what the starting line up,formation,tactics and end result will be.We're going to hear a lot of "Well David,you were very unlucky to loose that game to a late goal after holding on for so long" and "you must be proud of your players for giving so much effort". Here's a suggestion,Why not drive the team bus into the stadium and actually park it in front of the goal?At least we will have something different to watch instead of the inevitable surrender that were going to witness with a whole lot of excuses to follow.
Peter Murphy
36 Posted 12/10/2011 at 16:22:01
36 Posted 12/10/2011 at 16:22:01
Moyes will play crocked old favourites and one up front, anyone young, creative, comfortable on the ball or attack minded will be played out of position or left on the bench. You know I am right.
Denis Richardson
37 Posted 12/10/2011 at 16:15:50
37 Posted 12/10/2011 at 16:15:50
Will be travelling during the game so (un)fortunately will miss it. Think the manager will obviously start out defensively which to be honest I cannot really fault him for,they are a good side and we are playing away.
I just hope he at least starts with some attacking outlet up top and not Cahil on his own so as to relieve some of the pressure on the defence and give their defenders something to think about.
Problem with playing ultra defensive is that the team is forced to defend for long periods and eventually just becomes knacked with the inevitable goal coming after an hour or so.
Hope we nick something there - regardless of the tactics employed.
I just hope he at least starts with some attacking outlet up top and not Cahil on his own so as to relieve some of the pressure on the defence and give their defenders something to think about.
Problem with playing ultra defensive is that the team is forced to defend for long periods and eventually just becomes knacked with the inevitable goal coming after an hour or so.
Hope we nick something there - regardless of the tactics employed.
Jeremy Benson
38 Posted 12/10/2011 at 17:56:13
38 Posted 12/10/2011 at 17:56:13
You can't possibly hope to hold out against chelsea for 90 minutes with the creative players they have, without conceding a goal.
Therefore, the team and tactics should be set out at least with the intent of scoring at least one goal. That means there has to be a striker (a proper one, not a midfielder) on the pitch at all times.
I can't be bothered checking, but we probably havent had a striker on the pitch for a full 90 minutes this season, have we?
Therefore, the team and tactics should be set out at least with the intent of scoring at least one goal. That means there has to be a striker (a proper one, not a midfielder) on the pitch at all times.
I can't be bothered checking, but we probably havent had a striker on the pitch for a full 90 minutes this season, have we?
Andy Crooks
39 Posted 12/10/2011 at 18:30:14
39 Posted 12/10/2011 at 18:30:14
Dave Wilson, what a negative post from a normally positive guy. Yes, I will happily sneak a lucky, hard-fought, backs-against-the-wall win. I'd have accepted that against City. However, our line-up against City couldn't win. It was a draw or nothing. In my view, it was one of the lowest days in recent years.
As I said, I don't want gung ho, like you I don't give a fuck if the Chelsea fans are entertained, If, though, we start with the same attitude as we did against City, then we will hand them three points and that will be entertainment enough for them.
If we start with Cahill as a lone "striker", then Dave, I will fucking spontaneously combust.
As I said, I don't want gung ho, like you I don't give a fuck if the Chelsea fans are entertained, If, though, we start with the same attitude as we did against City, then we will hand them three points and that will be entertainment enough for them.
If we start with Cahill as a lone "striker", then Dave, I will fucking spontaneously combust.
Mathew McKay
40 Posted 12/10/2011 at 18:53:35
40 Posted 12/10/2011 at 18:53:35
It's 11 men against 11 men. We're very good at sticking it to the big teams under pressure, and if it wasn't for harsh luck and terrible decisions (against both Liverpool and City), I'm sure you'll all agree that we would have at least drawn those games.
My only concern is that, with the bad luck we've had recently, the lads might be low on the confidence side.
I agree with those that say we need to put on fast flair players (not that we have an abundance of them), so that we can break and exploit their weak defence.
We have a strong defence, but that's no use for 90 minutes when we have nothing in the final third to break with.
My only concern is that, with the bad luck we've had recently, the lads might be low on the confidence side.
I agree with those that say we need to put on fast flair players (not that we have an abundance of them), so that we can break and exploit their weak defence.
We have a strong defence, but that's no use for 90 minutes when we have nothing in the final third to break with.
Andy Crooks
41 Posted 12/10/2011 at 19:01:22
41 Posted 12/10/2011 at 19:01:22
Matthew, yes, bad luck against Liverpool. Against City thank God we didn't get what we deserved.
Andrew Flanagan
42 Posted 12/10/2011 at 21:40:08
42 Posted 12/10/2011 at 21:40:08
I was stressed with planning lessons for school the other night and slept really badly. When I woke up the next morning all I could remember was dreaming about Tony Hibbert scoring TWO goals in a game. Not just one but TWO! Im not saying its going to happen this weekend but you never know, stranger things have happened.....actually stranger things probably haven't happened to be fair.
Definitely worth a pound on it though.
COYB
Definitely worth a pound on it though.
COYB
Sam Hoare
43 Posted 12/10/2011 at 21:55:55
43 Posted 12/10/2011 at 21:55:55
Andrew...some things belong to the world of dream!
Steve Jones
44 Posted 13/10/2011 at 00:01:46
44 Posted 13/10/2011 at 00:01:46
Dave Wilson ? skillful wording around Man City away last season, you're right that none if the 3 strikers you mentioned played but we had a striker on the pitch who held up the ball & provided an outlet; this year we didn't. That's the great big bloody difference people are complaining about, sending out Cahill as a lone striker says to the opposition, "We're shit scared of you and we're not gonna trouble you apart from the odd set piece."
Cahill (as much as I love the guy) does not hold the ball up. As soon as he gets it, he's always looking for the quick pass, which isn't an option when the rest of the team sits as deeply as they did versus City.
Cahill doesn't run at the opposition with the ball or occupy defenders in the way Anichebe did against City last season to create space for others, he's not a lone striker, never will be because he's played as an attacking midfielder for the last 15 years. He is good in the air & is at his best attacking from behind the striker, not leading the line.
I can change a lightbulb but it doesn't mean I can suddenly do the same job as an electrician who has been doing it for 15 years.
Cahill (as much as I love the guy) does not hold the ball up. As soon as he gets it, he's always looking for the quick pass, which isn't an option when the rest of the team sits as deeply as they did versus City.
Cahill doesn't run at the opposition with the ball or occupy defenders in the way Anichebe did against City last season to create space for others, he's not a lone striker, never will be because he's played as an attacking midfielder for the last 15 years. He is good in the air & is at his best attacking from behind the striker, not leading the line.
I can change a lightbulb but it doesn't mean I can suddenly do the same job as an electrician who has been doing it for 15 years.
Gerard Carroll
45 Posted 12/10/2011 at 23:49:09
45 Posted 12/10/2011 at 23:49:09
Andrew @ 41 did you have a dream about a red card at Motherwell last year?
James Flynn
46 Posted 13/10/2011 at 01:23:33
46 Posted 13/10/2011 at 01:23:33
Dave (9 and 32) - Agree. Fuck Chelsea. We need the 3 points. Don't care how we get them.
Chris Fisher
47 Posted 13/10/2011 at 10:26:34
47 Posted 13/10/2011 at 10:26:34
For what reason would anyone want to drop Cahill?
Andy Crooks
48 Posted 13/10/2011 at 10:57:02
48 Posted 13/10/2011 at 10:57:02
Chris, he's been playing through pain and the nature of his game requires 100% fitness. Also, he doesn't suit being the 1 in 4-5-1.
Martin Handley
49 Posted 13/10/2011 at 12:13:58
49 Posted 13/10/2011 at 12:13:58
For some strange reason, I fancy us to go there and get a point. We always seem to play quite well at their place; last season, for example, we should've won.
I know you guys are going to say we don't have a goal threat but we do: Saha, he showed glimpses of his old self in the derby before knobhead put an end to the game.
Also Norwich gave them a game at home til our old boy keeper got sent off.
I know you guys are going to say we don't have a goal threat but we do: Saha, he showed glimpses of his old self in the derby before knobhead put an end to the game.
Also Norwich gave them a game at home til our old boy keeper got sent off.
I think we'll do better there than in the Carling Cup although they'll probably put a second string team out in that.
Andrew Laird
50 Posted 13/10/2011 at 12:51:42
50 Posted 13/10/2011 at 12:51:42
Chris, here are a few reasons to drop him:
1: Has not scored since 20th December 2010
2: Questionable footballing ability and is not effective or quick enough as a lone striker to hold up the ball.
3: Our football improves when he is not in the team.
Further to Andy's post #47 I don't think he is suited to being the midfielder behind the 1 anymore either.
1: Has not scored since 20th December 2010
2: Questionable footballing ability and is not effective or quick enough as a lone striker to hold up the ball.
3: Our football improves when he is not in the team.
Further to Andy's post #47 I don't think he is suited to being the midfielder behind the 1 anymore either.
Tom Bowers
51 Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:25:26
51 Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:25:26
Simple truth is that we won't beat Chelski at the Bridge because we don't have the attacking prowess. However, we may steal a draw because you know Moyes being a defender cannot get out of the mentality of playing defensive and most teams do at Chelsea and Man Utd.
We have to hope the usual suspects who start play 100% and do the job. You know however if they score first then we have no plan ''B'' except desperation when he will throw on Drenthe & Co.
We have to hope the usual suspects who start play 100% and do the job. You know however if they score first then we have no plan ''B'' except desperation when he will throw on Drenthe & Co.
Drew O'Neall
52 Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:34:05
52 Posted 13/10/2011 at 13:34:05
Tony J @ 24
I enjoyed the rant but would have finished it with a Homer Simpson style, "now that's sarcasm"
Reference:
Marge: Try to be nice to my sisters. It's very hard on me to have you fighting all the time.
Homer: Oh, OK Marge, I'll get along with them. Then, I will hug some snakes! Yes, I will hug and kiss some poisonous *snakes*!
[pause]
Homer: Now that's sarcasm.
I enjoyed the rant but would have finished it with a Homer Simpson style, "now that's sarcasm"
Reference:
Marge: Try to be nice to my sisters. It's very hard on me to have you fighting all the time.
Homer: Oh, OK Marge, I'll get along with them. Then, I will hug some snakes! Yes, I will hug and kiss some poisonous *snakes*!
[pause]
Homer: Now that's sarcasm.
Dave Wilson
53 Posted 13/10/2011 at 14:23:48
53 Posted 13/10/2011 at 14:23:48
Steve Jones
I agree, Cahill is not a striker never will be, but I`m not sure what you mean about sending out a "we are shit scared of you" message.
Cahill may not be a natural striker but I doubt there's a defender in world football who isn't a little nervous when he's around... and are you suggesting that by selecting Vic last season Moyes was sending a snarling "right you Manc fuckers, Vic's gonna have you"? I`m no Vic basher but I`ll bet the City players were more worried about our "Midfielder" ... despite the results.
The Chelseas and Citys of this world have incredible competition for places and most of their players will be too worried about their own selection to give any "message" we send a second thought. Our team selection will not alter the way they play.
For what its worth, I believe Saha will play on Saturday
Andy #38 ? Negative? not at all. I`m not going to the Bridge filled with "trepidation". There's more than one way to skin a cat.
I agree, Cahill is not a striker never will be, but I`m not sure what you mean about sending out a "we are shit scared of you" message.
Cahill may not be a natural striker but I doubt there's a defender in world football who isn't a little nervous when he's around... and are you suggesting that by selecting Vic last season Moyes was sending a snarling "right you Manc fuckers, Vic's gonna have you"? I`m no Vic basher but I`ll bet the City players were more worried about our "Midfielder" ... despite the results.
The Chelseas and Citys of this world have incredible competition for places and most of their players will be too worried about their own selection to give any "message" we send a second thought. Our team selection will not alter the way they play.
For what its worth, I believe Saha will play on Saturday
Andy #38 ? Negative? not at all. I`m not going to the Bridge filled with "trepidation". There's more than one way to skin a cat.
Steve Jones
54 Posted 13/10/2011 at 18:32:06
54 Posted 13/10/2011 at 18:32:06
Dave I'm not sure defenders are as nervous of Cahill when he's on his own upfront, I think you get my point and if you don't you are one of the few.
The formation with Anichebe meant we had a natural striker who does the things like holding the ball up, occupying defenders, creating space which worked and as you say the key point being we got a result. When we send out a team without a recognised striker, we are making it pretty clear the aim is to defend deeply & hoof the ball out to Cahill who, even if wins the ball, has no-one supporting him, so the ball comes straight back at us. Cahill is a real threat to teams coming from deep behind a striker, not on his own.
The formation with Anichebe meant we had a natural striker who does the things like holding the ball up, occupying defenders, creating space which worked and as you say the key point being we got a result. When we send out a team without a recognised striker, we are making it pretty clear the aim is to defend deeply & hoof the ball out to Cahill who, even if wins the ball, has no-one supporting him, so the ball comes straight back at us. Cahill is a real threat to teams coming from deep behind a striker, not on his own.
Andy Crooks
55 Posted 13/10/2011 at 19:19:34
55 Posted 13/10/2011 at 19:19:34
Dave Wilson, what would be your starting line-up on Saturday? If you're going to the game I envy you. I said a few months ago that I would never set foot in Goodison P ark while Kenwright was still here. However, I'm looking at cheap flights for January. That's what Everton do to you.
Incidentally, why don't you write a report after the game? ToffeeWeb is divided three ways: pro-Moyes, anti-Moyes and Wilsonites.
Incidentally, why don't you write a report after the game? ToffeeWeb is divided three ways: pro-Moyes, anti-Moyes and Wilsonites.
Stephen Kenny
56 Posted 14/10/2011 at 08:46:15
56 Posted 14/10/2011 at 08:46:15
Dave,
"When really stretching the imagination, I believe it is sometimes possible to compare Everton's work ethic when we don't have the ball to that of Barca's"
Do you need to be especially skillful or a great footballer to be able to match Barca's work ethic? IMO a high level of fitness and good organization by our supposedly great manager should see us match them for endeavour at least?
"Nobody moaned when Moyes sent a side out without Beckford, Saha and Yakubu at Eastlands last season, nor did anyone complain about him employing similar tactics twice at the Bridge"
You're dead right. Because we had a player who is a proven goalscorer when played in his proper position playing behind a big striker who had one of his best games ever until he got sent off. Are you trying to tell me that was the case the other week?
I also remember a brilliant passing move that saw our left back burst into their box and bury one with his bad foot. How can that happen if we're all camped in our half, terrified to have a go because our manager says were not good enough to compete? We also hit them on the break and put them under serious pressure from set pieces last time we won there; the other week we sent four players up for a corner, our best chance of a goal.
Their win wasn't a poxy one. They battered us from 5 mins to 95 mins and had chance after chance. The fact that the first goal came from a mistake is irrelevant, mistakes happen when you ask players to defend constantly for 90 mins.
I'm not expecting us to "go down fighting" ? I'm expecting us to go and try and win the game and see what comes of it. That way you have a chance. To wait to be put to the sword guarantees one thing.
We have players who can keep the ball and move it about, we can play to feet and retain possesion, we have goalscorers in our side when they play in thier proper position, and we are dangerous from the flanks and at crosses. We also have a pair who are starting to look very dominant in the midlle of the park.
When we lose the ball, let's defend like our lives depend on it; that's to be expected away from home against really good sides but, when we get it back, let's use it to the best of our ability, which is a lot more than a 70-yard hoof.
"When really stretching the imagination, I believe it is sometimes possible to compare Everton's work ethic when we don't have the ball to that of Barca's"
Do you need to be especially skillful or a great footballer to be able to match Barca's work ethic? IMO a high level of fitness and good organization by our supposedly great manager should see us match them for endeavour at least?
"Nobody moaned when Moyes sent a side out without Beckford, Saha and Yakubu at Eastlands last season, nor did anyone complain about him employing similar tactics twice at the Bridge"
You're dead right. Because we had a player who is a proven goalscorer when played in his proper position playing behind a big striker who had one of his best games ever until he got sent off. Are you trying to tell me that was the case the other week?
I also remember a brilliant passing move that saw our left back burst into their box and bury one with his bad foot. How can that happen if we're all camped in our half, terrified to have a go because our manager says were not good enough to compete? We also hit them on the break and put them under serious pressure from set pieces last time we won there; the other week we sent four players up for a corner, our best chance of a goal.
Their win wasn't a poxy one. They battered us from 5 mins to 95 mins and had chance after chance. The fact that the first goal came from a mistake is irrelevant, mistakes happen when you ask players to defend constantly for 90 mins.
I'm not expecting us to "go down fighting" ? I'm expecting us to go and try and win the game and see what comes of it. That way you have a chance. To wait to be put to the sword guarantees one thing.
We have players who can keep the ball and move it about, we can play to feet and retain possesion, we have goalscorers in our side when they play in thier proper position, and we are dangerous from the flanks and at crosses. We also have a pair who are starting to look very dominant in the midlle of the park.
When we lose the ball, let's defend like our lives depend on it; that's to be expected away from home against really good sides but, when we get it back, let's use it to the best of our ability, which is a lot more than a 70-yard hoof.
Chris Fisher
57 Posted 14/10/2011 at 11:31:05
57 Posted 14/10/2011 at 11:31:05
If he is not 100% fit then absloutley he shouldn't play but, apart from that, any other reason doesnt wash with me. Is there proof that we play better football without him or is it just an opinion?
He may not have scored for a bit but neither have a lot of players. Torres would've been dropped long before he finally scored recently, if that's only what players are judged on, and he is an actual striker ? Tim isn't.
Saha upfront supported by Tim would not be an enjoyable partnership for Terry and Co. We all have our opinion though, so all who say that Tim shouldn't start ? I'm not saying you're wrong... but, in my opinon, if Tim is fit, he starts everytime.
He may not have scored for a bit but neither have a lot of players. Torres would've been dropped long before he finally scored recently, if that's only what players are judged on, and he is an actual striker ? Tim isn't.
Saha upfront supported by Tim would not be an enjoyable partnership for Terry and Co. We all have our opinion though, so all who say that Tim shouldn't start ? I'm not saying you're wrong... but, in my opinon, if Tim is fit, he starts everytime.
Tony J Williams
58 Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:14:09
58 Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:14:09
Tim Cahill ? been fooling all football managers for a decade or two.
It reminds me of the Fred Astaire reference: Can't sing, can't act, can dance a little...
It reminds me of the Fred Astaire reference: Can't sing, can't act, can dance a little...
Neil McCloskey
59 Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:45:05
59 Posted 14/10/2011 at 12:45:05
Saha has to play as he's really owned Terry in the past - particularly the 2-1 win at GP when he really took the piss outta him!
Dave Wilson
60 Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:30:51
60 Posted 14/10/2011 at 14:30:51
Stephen,
Nobody hates hoofball more than I do, I`ve always pointed the finger at Jagielka as chief culprit, but I see Moyes's dilemma. If he leaves him out, our football will improve instantly... but let's be fair here, whenever we have had good results against the top boys, Jagielka's defending has usually been one of the main reasons.
I also agree with you about Big Vic at City, but Moyes is in a no-win situation here, you've heard the outcry when Big Vic starts. Imagine what it would be like if he started and we lost?
Moyes obviously doesn't trust Vellios yet. Hopefully Saha will play tomorrow...
Andy.
"Wilsonites" ? LOL I think I`m generally in a minority of one.
Despite Neville's penalty heroics last time, he's had some real Westons at Chelsea and I wouldn't let him near the place. Agree with you about Drenthe but I think the Chelsea midfield may be too powerful and have too much know-how for Barkley at this stage of his career. It would be nice if he came on and did something out of the ordinary to win it for us though.
Roddders also appears to have found some aggression, that can only be good news.
Louis up top for me!
Nobody hates hoofball more than I do, I`ve always pointed the finger at Jagielka as chief culprit, but I see Moyes's dilemma. If he leaves him out, our football will improve instantly... but let's be fair here, whenever we have had good results against the top boys, Jagielka's defending has usually been one of the main reasons.
I also agree with you about Big Vic at City, but Moyes is in a no-win situation here, you've heard the outcry when Big Vic starts. Imagine what it would be like if he started and we lost?
Moyes obviously doesn't trust Vellios yet. Hopefully Saha will play tomorrow...
Andy.
"Wilsonites" ? LOL I think I`m generally in a minority of one.
Despite Neville's penalty heroics last time, he's had some real Westons at Chelsea and I wouldn't let him near the place. Agree with you about Drenthe but I think the Chelsea midfield may be too powerful and have too much know-how for Barkley at this stage of his career. It would be nice if he came on and did something out of the ordinary to win it for us though.
Roddders also appears to have found some aggression, that can only be good news.
Louis up top for me!
Andy Crooks
61 Posted 15/10/2011 at 20:16:20
61 Posted 15/10/2011 at 20:16:20
I was wrong. Moyes felt the fear and ran away.
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1 Posted 11/10/2011 at 16:00:34