Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Control freak
109 Comments: Before I start this is not a criticism of Moyes even though I have never been a big fan of him. I live in Kenya and watch the game on TV every week. Did anyone else notice how Moyes was constantly telling the players what to do during the game yesterday? He shouted at Howard while he was taking a free kick "TC right back" and Howard duly aimed for Cahill who was on the West Brom right back's shoulder. There were other comments and also words of praise that were picked up by the microphone.
Why is this? Does he not coach the players during the week in preparation for games? Has he lost the confidence in his players ability to take on board how he wants them to play.
When I am back in the UK, I watch my boy play U14s and their coach acts in exactly the same way. I think it is down to confidence in the players at his disposal. Is this the case with Moyes or is he simply a Control Freak?
Paul Johnson, Posted 02/01/2012 at 10:40:43
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I saw him having a right laugh on the bench when Saha mis-kicked in the first half !
How was he forced to make the first sub Jimmy?
Jimmy, you so often get things wrong that we can no longer add them all up. I don't like Moyes; I want him to go. But instead of spouting gibberish, get things correct and in order. Meaningful criticism of Moyes does not include in accuracies and/or unrealistic conjecture. How on earth was Moyes forced to make the 1st sub; please explain that statement, if you wish to be taken seriously. And there is not a single 'Moyes-basher', like me, who would have expected or even called for three subs after the 1st 45.
You have a habit of trotting out wild untruths, hyperbole, and misrepresentations, as well as points that would benefit from splashes of realism and practicality. All in all, your contributions make it more difficult for more thoughtful critics if Moyes on these and other board. Think before you type please.
You have a habit of trotting out wild untruths, hyperbole, and misrepresentations, as well as points that would benefit from splashes of realism and practicality. All in all, your contributions make it more difficult for more thoughtful critics if Moyes on these and other board. Think before you type please.
Apparently Rodwell had a tendon strain, hence the substitution. Or so the Daily Mirror says!
This has come up before, frankly its bad management. The first thing a coach is taught to do in most (if not all) countries is shut up and let the players play. Telling them what to do makes the decision process more difficult as the instruction may not match up to the instinct. Moyes doesn't seem to believe in this. Professionals are maybe good enough to cope with this but tell your kid's U-14 coach he's hindering them not helping. You don't see the top coaches doing it.
Shouting praise is another matter, praise pretty much always helps as it gives confidence. Criticism, no matter how justified, rarely makes players better. Personally I believe you can criticise two things in a footballer, one is lack of effort, and the other is consistently making poor decisions (such as 'Hollywood' passes or holding on to possession for too long) because you want to do the option that makes you look good rather than the one that benefits the team the most. Telling someone when they've failed to execute a skill is ridiculous, they usually know and need encouragement rather than criticism.
PS> Jimmy, the grinding out result thing clearly worked yesterday.
Shouting praise is another matter, praise pretty much always helps as it gives confidence. Criticism, no matter how justified, rarely makes players better. Personally I believe you can criticise two things in a footballer, one is lack of effort, and the other is consistently making poor decisions (such as 'Hollywood' passes or holding on to possession for too long) because you want to do the option that makes you look good rather than the one that benefits the team the most. Telling someone when they've failed to execute a skill is ridiculous, they usually know and need encouragement rather than criticism.
PS> Jimmy, the grinding out result thing clearly worked yesterday.
Errrrmm... Pep Guardiola is constantly on his feet directing his players. Is he a bad manager?
Or Martin O'Neill, or Paul Lambert, or Unai Emery, or AVB to name but a few???
Or Martin O'Neill, or Paul Lambert, or Unai Emery, or AVB to name but a few???
Paul, general criticism of Moyes these days is thoroughly justified in my opinion.
He has many faults which has contributed to the way this team plays and the mediocre displays we have been seeing in the first half of this season.
The club has some top players, some good youngsters coming through but too many players either sub-standard or past their best.
The recent results must not hide the fact that Moyes teams selections and tactics are abyssmal and we have ben dodging bullets getting into tenth spot as we are at present.
It's been a long time since we had an ''impressive victory''. Those days seem long gone. Beware a backlash from Bolton!
Some teams winning away have had unpleasant surprises coming back home and our home record is poor.
He has many faults which has contributed to the way this team plays and the mediocre displays we have been seeing in the first half of this season.
The club has some top players, some good youngsters coming through but too many players either sub-standard or past their best.
The recent results must not hide the fact that Moyes teams selections and tactics are abyssmal and we have ben dodging bullets getting into tenth spot as we are at present.
It's been a long time since we had an ''impressive victory''. Those days seem long gone. Beware a backlash from Bolton!
Some teams winning away have had unpleasant surprises coming back home and our home record is poor.
"I think he just want to appear like he is doing something and not look passive to the media." - Jimmy Sorheim, post 1.
This is precisely the sort of fatuous, cosmetic double Dutch, that as Paul Ferry alludes to, paints a sizeable majority of the Moyes-Bashers as a lunatic fringe movement. As if Moyes would ever be that insecure, precious or vain!
Jimmy goes on: "Moyes starts out way too defensive," making no mention of the fact that we enjoyed superior possession, had territorial advantage, racked up more crosses (and corners) in (an admittedly dire) FIRST HALF.
Only when we majestically sweep all-comers aside, will those deluded to the practical realities & difficulties of top-level football afford some grudging respect to Moyes, who's now being criticised for coaching his own players, and reacting to the unfolding challenge his side faces.
Tell you what, why bother having the manager present in the stadium at all? Let's insist they sit at home nursing a glass of Courvoisier during games. After all, if they've had all week etc..
This is precisely the sort of fatuous, cosmetic double Dutch, that as Paul Ferry alludes to, paints a sizeable majority of the Moyes-Bashers as a lunatic fringe movement. As if Moyes would ever be that insecure, precious or vain!
Jimmy goes on: "Moyes starts out way too defensive," making no mention of the fact that we enjoyed superior possession, had territorial advantage, racked up more crosses (and corners) in (an admittedly dire) FIRST HALF.
Only when we majestically sweep all-comers aside, will those deluded to the practical realities & difficulties of top-level football afford some grudging respect to Moyes, who's now being criticised for coaching his own players, and reacting to the unfolding challenge his side faces.
Tell you what, why bother having the manager present in the stadium at all? Let's insist they sit at home nursing a glass of Courvoisier during games. After all, if they've had all week etc..
I personally want to see the manager shouting encouragement from the touch line, especially at an away..
I like to think that Moyes realised that WBA were not up to much yesterday during the game. They were on a good run, drew with Man City etc.. and he made positive changes which won us the game.
A 1-0 away win is not to be sniffed at.
I like to think that Moyes realised that WBA were not up to much yesterday during the game. They were on a good run, drew with Man City etc.. and he made positive changes which won us the game.
A 1-0 away win is not to be sniffed at.
Most of 'em do it now although you'd think Moyes with his never changing gameplan would have little to instruct.
A permanent holding game with his preferred journeymen incorporating 2 banks of 4, one up front and a floater behind the striker that's it every game.
lump it for some poor chump to fight for a corner or throw-in as the rest trundle up either side of halfway or loop one into the mixer on the diagonal is standard never changing fayre under Moyes.
It's survival and nothing else - after 10 years!!!
Perfectly acceptable to todays fans it seems - don't get it myself.
A permanent holding game with his preferred journeymen incorporating 2 banks of 4, one up front and a floater behind the striker that's it every game.
lump it for some poor chump to fight for a corner or throw-in as the rest trundle up either side of halfway or loop one into the mixer on the diagonal is standard never changing fayre under Moyes.
It's survival and nothing else - after 10 years!!!
Perfectly acceptable to todays fans it seems - don't get it myself.
Mike, so are you saying that SAF and MO'N even Mancini are never seen ranting at the players?
I know it was only MOTD2 last night, but as LO got the ball could no one else hear DM encouraging Leon to be strong and he also encouraged the pass to TH. He is there, the man on the ground, passionate and demanding.
As for comment on another post today that the cross from Hibbert was a poor one. Tell you what, ask any striker how happty would they be to challenge for balls like that each and every time. Just because our strikers are never there, that is not Tony's problem. (I do not just mean yesterday, The cross was perfect)
I know it was only MOTD2 last night, but as LO got the ball could no one else hear DM encouraging Leon to be strong and he also encouraged the pass to TH. He is there, the man on the ground, passionate and demanding.
As for comment on another post today that the cross from Hibbert was a poor one. Tell you what, ask any striker how happty would they be to challenge for balls like that each and every time. Just because our strikers are never there, that is not Tony's problem. (I do not just mean yesterday, The cross was perfect)
With the budget and players we have, what should be our aim be then Barry. Win the league?We will finish between 7th and 10th. About our level unfortunately.
"It's survival and nothing else - after 10 years!!!" (Post: 10).
No it's FUCKING NOT !!
Seven top 8 finishes in nine years is evidence to the contrary, Barry.
Moyes Bashers: Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
No it's FUCKING NOT !!
Seven top 8 finishes in nine years is evidence to the contrary, Barry.
Moyes Bashers: Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
The cross wasnt perfect it went over both stikers in the box, he had time to look and pick someone out, he didnt he just folated a hopeful ball in, it was a poor cross. he however, did excellent to be in that position, but lets not dress him up as dani alves.
Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
Stop the stupid sloganeering that eschews reality!!
Eunuch Ruane 14
Once again you come out with comments that you cannot follow through on!!
Once again you come out with comments that you cannot follow through on!!
Kevin Hudson
Your dummy has just fizzed by.
Strange little boy.
Your dummy has just fizzed by.
Strange little boy.
Alternatively, let's talk about eating our own ball-bag...
(Perhaps visit Bluekipper).
(Perhaps visit Bluekipper).
Ah yes, toffeewebbers at work. Lets gang upon anyone who dares not believe the old chestnut of "we're doomed I tell you" followed by the most fanciful guff that you can muster. Indeed dont ever let the facts interrupt you and your attack on a fellow blue who just yearns for the truth.
Apologies, Barry, I simply cannot respond to such a well-thought out, cogent rebuttal.
An Alan Partridge tie & blazer badge set is in the post.
An Alan Partridge tie & blazer badge set is in the post.
Eugene - nearly dropped my beer laughing!
Kevin - more sweary, shouty caps with exclamation marks please!
Give Moyes a break. He wasn't forced into the first change just bringing Rodwell back in without injuring him again and Jack played really well when he was on. As for starting with a defensive setup, surely with a weak squad and a propensity for conceding early goals that is exactly what you want to do? He brought on as substitute who scored and we won free points in what is a difficult fixture.
Watch any father watching his son playing and you'll see a control freak and managers are just higher paid Dads watching their kids play.
I really like Moyes and whilst, as an ex defender, he is obviously at the negative end of the coaching spectrum, I believe he is keeping a sadly struggling ex-giant of a club in an elevated position that it shouldn't be in given its resources. He behaves with decorum and modesty and I for one give him great credit. I guess that he will move on soon and that in the absence of a benefactor takeover it will be just another step in the badly managed decline of Everton FC.
For me Moyes is an established Blues Legend but I'm not sure what the end game will be for him.
Watch any father watching his son playing and you'll see a control freak and managers are just higher paid Dads watching their kids play.
I really like Moyes and whilst, as an ex defender, he is obviously at the negative end of the coaching spectrum, I believe he is keeping a sadly struggling ex-giant of a club in an elevated position that it shouldn't be in given its resources. He behaves with decorum and modesty and I for one give him great credit. I guess that he will move on soon and that in the absence of a benefactor takeover it will be just another step in the badly managed decline of Everton FC.
For me Moyes is an established Blues Legend but I'm not sure what the end game will be for him.
Eunuch,
POT !!
KETTLE!!
BLACK!!
POT !!
KETTLE!!
BLACK!!
Kevin, that sounded like Suarez..
Ian #14, no it didn't there were players beyond the defenders who would have picked up the cross with ease.
Mark Riding 25
I though it was suarez who repeated it several times, which follows the Eunuchs' comment me thinks!!
I though it was suarez who repeated it several times, which follows the Eunuchs' comment me thinks!!
Barry the only people deluded enough to think its merely about survival are the Moyes critics who come on spouting we are going down every time we dont win.
The rest of us are too concerned about whether we can qualify for Europeor not. The difference is, we sometimes get it right .
Ian #13
No it wasnt a floated cross, it was whipped in at pace into an area that was always going to be difficult to defend, I was right behind it and it was a superb cross.
Thats Hibbos Job done, its the attackers job to convert it by either getting on the end of it, or by capitalising on defnsive uncertainty.
What is it with some people ? the manager makes spot on substitutions and they are "forced upon him"
The right back - who at long last seems to be improving his crossing - sets up the winner . .but if you dont think "the cross was poor" youre accused of dressing him up as Daniel Alves.
And if you dont believe 5/6/7th is "fighting for survival" you must believe "fighting for survival" is acceptable ? ? ?
The rest of us are too concerned about whether we can qualify for Europeor not. The difference is, we sometimes get it right .
Ian #13
No it wasnt a floated cross, it was whipped in at pace into an area that was always going to be difficult to defend, I was right behind it and it was a superb cross.
Thats Hibbos Job done, its the attackers job to convert it by either getting on the end of it, or by capitalising on defnsive uncertainty.
What is it with some people ? the manager makes spot on substitutions and they are "forced upon him"
The right back - who at long last seems to be improving his crossing - sets up the winner . .but if you dont think "the cross was poor" youre accused of dressing him up as Daniel Alves.
And if you dont believe 5/6/7th is "fighting for survival" you must believe "fighting for survival" is acceptable ? ? ?
Eugene,Don't let me down.
I suspect that like most former players turned coaches, & probably most supporters, Moyes kicks & heads every ball as if he were on the pitch himself. I also suspect most of the players are too engrossed in what they're doing at the time to pay much heed to either Moyes or those of us in the stands offering advice. Ultimately, Moyes is judged primarily on results & how he chooses to try & get them is his call. I'm only bothered by what he gets his players to do on the field - I don't much care about his prefered coaching methods.
Dave Wilson
Good for you.
As I said, I don't get it.
Surprisingly the use of the word "deluded" doesn't make any difference at all.
I trust it raises your spirits no end.
Good for you.
As I said, I don't get it.
Surprisingly the use of the word "deluded" doesn't make any difference at all.
I trust it raises your spirits no end.
From my point of view, how can Moyes possible see the big picture if he is constantly shouting out orders? Yes, if there is something to be said, by all means shout away... but surely you can't shout for 85 minutes of a game and see the bigger picture at the same time?
I dont mind the banter but cant we take a day off from criticiism after getting 3 points on New Years day.
Hibbo and Ossie have been slaughtered on here for years but the two of them are invaluable right now until Black Bill does one so lets be grateful for a bit of positivity around the club right now.
Hibbo and Ossie have been slaughtered on here for years but the two of them are invaluable right now until Black Bill does one so lets be grateful for a bit of positivity around the club right now.
Barry, finishing top six does nothing to raise my spirits, but I do know the difference between that and "fighting for survival". If you don't, I`m afraid you never will get it.
This club is heading for disaster; if we don't get some investment soon, I suspect we will be reminded what fighting for survival really means. Surely we can celebrate our wins in the meantime
This club is heading for disaster; if we don't get some investment soon, I suspect we will be reminded what fighting for survival really means. Surely we can celebrate our wins in the meantime
Guys, I didn't intend this to turn into a 'Moyes Out' article. As I have previously said, I never have liked him or his tactics but he manages the club I love so, until something changes, he is all we have.
As for the result yesterday, I am sure ne was happy with the 3 points. What I struggle with at the moment is we have no real style or pattern of play and that is why I asked the question as to whether our current manager is a control freak. The last time I can really remember a 'bum off the seat' moment was when Felliani did his Maradona past Bellamy. I don't see the players grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck, taking a real chance.
I think I made the mistake of mentioning my son's coach. What people have to realise is that the players wearing the Royal Blue are highly paid, highly trained professionals who should be more than capable of following a game plan, who can adapt that plan to suit the way the game is going.
I think that is the reason we are struggling to play entertaining football at the moment, no-one is prepared to take a risk.
So I believe he is a control freak.
As for the result yesterday, I am sure ne was happy with the 3 points. What I struggle with at the moment is we have no real style or pattern of play and that is why I asked the question as to whether our current manager is a control freak. The last time I can really remember a 'bum off the seat' moment was when Felliani did his Maradona past Bellamy. I don't see the players grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck, taking a real chance.
I think I made the mistake of mentioning my son's coach. What people have to realise is that the players wearing the Royal Blue are highly paid, highly trained professionals who should be more than capable of following a game plan, who can adapt that plan to suit the way the game is going.
I think that is the reason we are struggling to play entertaining football at the moment, no-one is prepared to take a risk.
So I believe he is a control freak.
Paul, I think "control freak," is a ridiculous statement.
He is paid to coach, nurture, and advise the players.
Can you point me in the direction of any manager who simply sits in the dug-out, never says a word, or gives any instructions to his players?
I dare you..
He is paid to coach, nurture, and advise the players.
Can you point me in the direction of any manager who simply sits in the dug-out, never says a word, or gives any instructions to his players?
I dare you..
Funny, when Moyes is supposed to be this tatically inept, boring, negative, control freak, that Landon Donovan couldn't wait to come back to Everton from the Los Angles sun.
If Moyes was as bad as the majority say, it makes you wonder why the fuck LD wanted to come back so desperately.
If Moyes was as bad as the majority say, it makes you wonder why the fuck LD wanted to come back so desperately.
I wish Moyes could control which formations he decides to play, lo and behold I heard that there was even an attacking emphasis for the West Bromwich fixture just recently, may it continue.
Moyes will be coming up to 10 years as manager in a short time and nothing in the way of honours to show for it; sure, he's done well in the meantime with limited resources and some standout finishes of recognition but nothing in the way of actual trophies.
With the recent upturn in fortunes and with players to return, I am quietly confident but Moyes, for me, still manages to strike a nerve every now and again, we've seen it so many times before. I have nothing against the man as an individual but at the end of the day it's all about the good of the club.
Moyes will be coming up to 10 years as manager in a short time and nothing in the way of honours to show for it; sure, he's done well in the meantime with limited resources and some standout finishes of recognition but nothing in the way of actual trophies.
With the recent upturn in fortunes and with players to return, I am quietly confident but Moyes, for me, still manages to strike a nerve every now and again, we've seen it so many times before. I have nothing against the man as an individual but at the end of the day it's all about the good of the club.
He is paid to coach, nurture and advise the players.
Read the initial thread Kevin you will see that is my point but he can't do that in 90 mins on a Saturday.
Again I stated there were words of praise which I would expect but to tell an international footballer were to pass the ball during a live game doesn't quite seem right to me.......
Read the initial thread Kevin you will see that is my point but he can't do that in 90 mins on a Saturday.
Again I stated there were words of praise which I would expect but to tell an international footballer were to pass the ball during a live game doesn't quite seem right to me.......
It doesn't seem right for Pep Guardiola to stand on the touch line giving instructions to the Barcelona players. But he does...
Ryan grow up..
Ryan the response was aimed at post 38.
Your comment regarding Guardiola is fair, do you think he is a control freak?
Maybe that is a pre requisite to being a great manager/coach. It isn't in my opinion.
Your comment regarding Guardiola is fair, do you think he is a control freak?
Maybe that is a pre requisite to being a great manager/coach. It isn't in my opinion.
Following your train of thought then Paul, can you anwer these three questions?
* Do you reccomend that he stands or sits there entirely mute during a game?
* Although this may be a startling leap of the imagination, do you not think that during a match, it is possible that Moyes is identifying either threats or possibilities that require communicating to his players?
* Are you a professional football manager with ten years of top-flight experience under your belt, qualifying you to second-guess / crtitique Moyes's touchline mannerisms, or his MO?
* Do you reccomend that he stands or sits there entirely mute during a game?
* Although this may be a startling leap of the imagination, do you not think that during a match, it is possible that Moyes is identifying either threats or possibilities that require communicating to his players?
* Are you a professional football manager with ten years of top-flight experience under your belt, qualifying you to second-guess / crtitique Moyes's touchline mannerisms, or his MO?
To be fair, they are Sunday League type shouts from Moyes.
" Down the line Hibbo" was one, and " Well in Victor" was another.
This was not a tactical masterclass by any stretch of the imagination.
I think twatting the ball down the channels is well ingrained with Hibbo & Jags, so no need to reinforce the hoofball mentality.
Somehow, I can't see Guardiola shouting these instructions to Messi.
" Down the line Hibbo" was one, and " Well in Victor" was another.
This was not a tactical masterclass by any stretch of the imagination.
I think twatting the ball down the channels is well ingrained with Hibbo & Jags, so no need to reinforce the hoofball mentality.
Somehow, I can't see Guardiola shouting these instructions to Messi.
Kevin #44
a simple question - what is your qualification/experience to make judgement on what does or doesn't make a valid critique?
a simple question - what is your qualification/experience to make judgement on what does or doesn't make a valid critique?
I,for one,am happy to leave Davey to coach as he wishes-he hasn`t done too badly so far,has he ?
A top half finish this season will do very nicely,thank you, but I`m confident we can make the top eight yet again.
Moysey is once again showing how,with patience,he can turn very ordinary players into match winners!
A top half finish this season will do very nicely,thank you, but I`m confident we can make the top eight yet again.
Moysey is once again showing how,with patience,he can turn very ordinary players into match winners!
Gavin, what is your qualification/experience to assess Kevin's answer as to whether he has the qualification/experience to make judgment on what does or doesn't make a valid critique?
Just a simple question...
Just a simple question...
I would suggest that qualifications, for anybody posting, should include a passing familiarity with logic and reason, and an ability to back up your assertions with some kind of evidence.
A simple answer Gavin.
I either subscribe to the guess-work of a fan watching on TV in Kenya, or I'm inclined to trust Moyes due to his statistical record, knowing as I do, that HE is the closest person to adjudicate upon how best to run his own squad.
We see him interact with his own players for approximately 2 hours per week, so who among us is qualified to critique the interactions he makes with them?
As with so many criticisms, the argument is increasingly weakening in terms of real substance. We're now reduced to cosmetically debating his touchline demeanor during an away win, via the wisdom of an armchair.
I either subscribe to the guess-work of a fan watching on TV in Kenya, or I'm inclined to trust Moyes due to his statistical record, knowing as I do, that HE is the closest person to adjudicate upon how best to run his own squad.
We see him interact with his own players for approximately 2 hours per week, so who among us is qualified to critique the interactions he makes with them?
As with so many criticisms, the argument is increasingly weakening in terms of real substance. We're now reduced to cosmetically debating his touchline demeanor during an away win, via the wisdom of an armchair.
I don't expect Moyes to stay silent on the touchline for the entire duration of the match.
However, it's one thing to convey tactical instructions or encouragements to players, like "keep it tight" or "well done" or "bring the ball up". It's another entirely when he's dictating the match play-by-play.
I mean, if our players can't make a simple decision like when to release the ball but need Moyes to be telling them ("Hold...hold...hold...release the ball now, Ossie"), you really have to wonder if Moyes sees them as 12-yr-old kids who need to be coached on every move, and if that sort of micro-management is stifling the players' natural creativity.
I think that's what gives rise to the notion that Moyes is a control freak (which I agree he is). Conversely, while Mancini and O'Neil and Guardiola may also be similarly vocal on the sidelines, I do not know if they "micro-manage" in the way Moyes does.
Kevin#37, off the top of my head, Sir Alex, Big Sam, Marcello Lippi, Harry Redknapp are some coaches/managers who take a more "hands-off" approach on the sidelines. They're not entirely silent that's for sure, but they definitely do not shout instructions throughout the match to their players they way Moyes does.
However, it's one thing to convey tactical instructions or encouragements to players, like "keep it tight" or "well done" or "bring the ball up". It's another entirely when he's dictating the match play-by-play.
I mean, if our players can't make a simple decision like when to release the ball but need Moyes to be telling them ("Hold...hold...hold...release the ball now, Ossie"), you really have to wonder if Moyes sees them as 12-yr-old kids who need to be coached on every move, and if that sort of micro-management is stifling the players' natural creativity.
I think that's what gives rise to the notion that Moyes is a control freak (which I agree he is). Conversely, while Mancini and O'Neil and Guardiola may also be similarly vocal on the sidelines, I do not know if they "micro-manage" in the way Moyes does.
Kevin#37, off the top of my head, Sir Alex, Big Sam, Marcello Lippi, Harry Redknapp are some coaches/managers who take a more "hands-off" approach on the sidelines. They're not entirely silent that's for sure, but they definitely do not shout instructions throughout the match to their players they way Moyes does.
Rob,
With my own eyes & ears, I have seen, and heard Allardyce, Ferguson & Redknapp screaming at their players.
In fairness, Lippi does look a more laid-back character, but in truth, I haven't watched his teams enough to comment further on this example.
We could always contrast Sven-Goran Eriksson's cold-fish, detached style as evidence of the variables of managerial touchline personality.
With my own eyes & ears, I have seen, and heard Allardyce, Ferguson & Redknapp screaming at their players.
In fairness, Lippi does look a more laid-back character, but in truth, I haven't watched his teams enough to comment further on this example.
We could always contrast Sven-Goran Eriksson's cold-fish, detached style as evidence of the variables of managerial touchline personality.
"Before I start this is not a criticism of Moyes..." followed by suggesting he's a "control freak"
Sounds like a Suarez-esque "Now i'm not being racist but Evra IS a ******" (use your imaginations)
Get over it fellas. Managers shout encouragement and instructions. So do players. Some more than others. It's almost always (intended to be) constructive, like giving someone a confidence boost or point out something that player may not have seen.
Sounds like a Suarez-esque "Now i'm not being racist but Evra IS a ******" (use your imaginations)
Get over it fellas. Managers shout encouragement and instructions. So do players. Some more than others. It's almost always (intended to be) constructive, like giving someone a confidence boost or point out something that player may not have seen.
Kevin, I think the issue at hands is whether those managers micro-manage their teams the way Moyes does when they scream at their players.
As I had stated, they're not silent; but neither are they constantly dictating the play of their teams down to the very last move throughout the game - which is where criticism of Moyes' "control freak" approach stems from.
As I had stated, they're not silent; but neither are they constantly dictating the play of their teams down to the very last move throughout the game - which is where criticism of Moyes' "control freak" approach stems from.
So in ONE game this season Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey did not use just the CLOCK or an injury to determine when to bring on substitutes. Now for all his acolytes he has become, or rather for them resumed the mantle of, a combination of Sir Matt Busby, Sir Alex Ferguson, Howard Kendal the first, and Harry Catterick the early days. What short memories you all have. Now if he ever fields a team designed just 'not to lose' but, with the potential that we have in some of the younger players, to be actually set out to WIN a game.
If he ever uses his substitutions in a TACTICAL way, to either go for a win or defend a lead not replacing our ONLY striker with ANOTHER defender when there were countless other options on the bench and we were STILL drawing as Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey did. Then and only then can his acolytes start to criticise his detractors with any logic and common sense and not just with emotional vitriol.
If he ever uses his substitutions in a TACTICAL way, to either go for a win or defend a lead not replacing our ONLY striker with ANOTHER defender when there were countless other options on the bench and we were STILL drawing as Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey did. Then and only then can his acolytes start to criticise his detractors with any logic and common sense and not just with emotional vitriol.
Martin #24 "Jack played really well when he was on"
Not according to the commentators on the match I was watching.
Barry #11 "loop one into the mixer on the diagonal" is exactly what those same commentators were calling for us to do as we were incapable of breaking through the middle of WBA's packed defence.
Not according to the commentators on the match I was watching.
Barry #11 "loop one into the mixer on the diagonal" is exactly what those same commentators were calling for us to do as we were incapable of breaking through the middle of WBA's packed defence.
In my opinion, Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey can shout whatever he likes from the touchline at matches but it's the performance of HIS team on the field that HE selects and that HE coaches that proves how good he is. Unfortunately, this season, the teams Dour Davey has put out play DROSS with a capital C.
Kevin #37 "Can you point me in the direction of any manager who simply sits in the dug-out, never says a word, or gives any instructions to his players?
I dare you.."
Martin Johnson...
And managers of most rugby teams who sit in the stands and watch the game to get an overview of the play.
I dare you.."
Martin Johnson...
And managers of most rugby teams who sit in the stands and watch the game to get an overview of the play.
Not going to have a crack at anyone else who's posted on this one, but I have an idea of how the players feel about it.
I play rugby at a decent level (not professional, but against very good teams, a few levels below Super), and most of us all view the coach's time for input is at training, before a game, and at half time. At times when walking up to throw a lineout, the coach would say a few things, and it gives me the shits! And this is at a level much lower than professional. The thought goes through your head; "I'm experienced, disciplined, and have a fucking brain of my own, so fuck off, write it down in your notepad, and tell me when I've got an orange wedge in my gob."
I imagine professionals have a very similar mindset.
I play rugby at a decent level (not professional, but against very good teams, a few levels below Super), and most of us all view the coach's time for input is at training, before a game, and at half time. At times when walking up to throw a lineout, the coach would say a few things, and it gives me the shits! And this is at a level much lower than professional. The thought goes through your head; "I'm experienced, disciplined, and have a fucking brain of my own, so fuck off, write it down in your notepad, and tell me when I've got an orange wedge in my gob."
I imagine professionals have a very similar mindset.
Kevin this was not guesswork. I and I have no doubt thousands of others heard his comments.
This was not designed to be an argument Kevin I was merely asking the question is Moyes a control freak. I have an opinion that some people subscribe too, others don't.
As for substance it was Moyes himself who created the substance not me.
As i have stated I just find it incredible that he is telling seasoned internationals what to do second by second.
Also Kevin I played football to a decent amateur level until I was 25 and then run amateur teams and let me tell you there is nothing more annoying when someone is shouting instructions at you for 90 minutes and as I have stated he has these guys for 40 hours a week to get his message across, he should then let them go out and play football.
This was not designed to be an argument Kevin I was merely asking the question is Moyes a control freak. I have an opinion that some people subscribe too, others don't.
As for substance it was Moyes himself who created the substance not me.
As i have stated I just find it incredible that he is telling seasoned internationals what to do second by second.
Also Kevin I played football to a decent amateur level until I was 25 and then run amateur teams and let me tell you there is nothing more annoying when someone is shouting instructions at you for 90 minutes and as I have stated he has these guys for 40 hours a week to get his message across, he should then let them go out and play football.
Don't know what all the fuss is about. The players probably can't hear him anyway. Just as they can't hear me when I shout out my instructions, or when the fella behind me does and the fella behind him does, etc..etc.
The number of times I shouted 'fuck off' at Saha against Swansea was incalculable...but he never heard me because he stayed put.
This whole thread is nonsensical.
The number of times I shouted 'fuck off' at Saha against Swansea was incalculable...but he never heard me because he stayed put.
This whole thread is nonsensical.
Agree with Mike Allison #6.
Ryan Holroyd - Pep Guardiola is on his feet but he doesn't constantly tell his players what pass to make.
I wish Moyes would shut up and let the players play, it's not Playstation Football game with Moyes with the joystick.
Ryan Holroyd - Pep Guardiola is on his feet but he doesn't constantly tell his players what pass to make.
I wish Moyes would shut up and let the players play, it's not Playstation Football game with Moyes with the joystick.
Eric 56
That's my point - We're never capable of going through the middle.
Someone tell me the last chance let alone goal from a through ball along the deck.
I can't remember one in 10 yrs.
That's my point - We're never capable of going through the middle.
Someone tell me the last chance let alone goal from a through ball along the deck.
I can't remember one in 10 yrs.
I would be more concerned if he sat there and did eff all, like last season against Bolton.
It's his job to look at the whole picture and update his players.
Also, from what i saw in teh first half was Moyes and Round talking on the bench, saying nothing and also having a good laugh. Strange behaviour from a control freak, surely he should have been on the touchline yelling out instructions?
"Unfortunately, this season, the teams Dour Davey has put out play DROSS with a capital C" - eh? I don't know why but this brightened up my first day back in work!!!
It's his job to look at the whole picture and update his players.
Also, from what i saw in teh first half was Moyes and Round talking on the bench, saying nothing and also having a good laugh. Strange behaviour from a control freak, surely he should have been on the touchline yelling out instructions?
"Unfortunately, this season, the teams Dour Davey has put out play DROSS with a capital C" - eh? I don't know why but this brightened up my first day back in work!!!
Barry Rathbone 63
I seem to remember a standout goal where Cahill played a perfectly weighted ball inside to the forward moving Pienaar who took the ball forward and scored a cracker against Arsenal. Pure magic, but alas it does not fit the mood of so many on here.
Just like our style of play. There have been months, usually at the end of the season when we yes Everton under Moyes have played some cultured and pleasing football stroking the ball around the park in a way that had people calling us the "Arsenal lite", but again it does not fit the stereotype that people want to create, does it?
I seem to remember a standout goal where Cahill played a perfectly weighted ball inside to the forward moving Pienaar who took the ball forward and scored a cracker against Arsenal. Pure magic, but alas it does not fit the mood of so many on here.
Just like our style of play. There have been months, usually at the end of the season when we yes Everton under Moyes have played some cultured and pleasing football stroking the ball around the park in a way that had people calling us the "Arsenal lite", but again it does not fit the stereotype that people want to create, does it?
Ryan, (7), no they're not constantly on their feet directing their players.
"Ryan Holroyd - Pep Guardiola is on his feet but he doesn't constantly tell his players what pass to make."
Tommy,
How do you know what he is saying on the sidelines? Are you fluent in Spanish?
Tommy,
How do you know what he is saying on the sidelines? Are you fluent in Spanish?
Ian (12), no I'm not, but they don't tell them individually where to pass it when they've got the ball.
There's a huge difference between managers shouting tactical instructions to their players, or even giving them a rollicking for making bad decisions, and telling them every pass and run to make. Moyes is the only Premier League manager to do the latter as far as I can tell and I find it embarrassing.
There's a huge difference between managers shouting tactical instructions to their players, or even giving them a rollicking for making bad decisions, and telling them every pass and run to make. Moyes is the only Premier League manager to do the latter as far as I can tell and I find it embarrassing.
"Dross with a capital C"
Coming into work today after a great break, was indeed a downer, but that post lifted me too
Nice one Peter
Coming into work today after a great break, was indeed a downer, but that post lifted me too
Nice one Peter
I shout at the players 'pass to xxxx', 'man on', 'shoot' etc when I'm at the ground......I also do the same when I'm at home on my couch ffs!!! Surely it's not a crime for Moyes to do the same?
"I find it embarrassing" - Embarrassed? About what? Who are you bothered about thinking it may be embarrassing?
Stange comment
Stange comment
I shout at the players 'pass to xxxx', 'man on', 'shoot' etc when I'm at the ground......I also do the same when I'm at home on my couch ffs!!! Surely it's not a crime for Moyes to do the same?
Tony J,
That line made me chuckle too. I propose that he should be known as Peter "Dross with a capital C" Barry from this point onwards.
It certainly rolls off the tongue more than the ridiculously contrived "Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey" (did you really think THAT would stick?)
That line made me chuckle too. I propose that he should be known as Peter "Dross with a capital C" Barry from this point onwards.
It certainly rolls off the tongue more than the ridiculously contrived "Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey" (did you really think THAT would stick?)
"Peter "Dross with a capital C" Barry " - I like it Noel.
Breaking news : Manager instructs players from sideline.
I do not understand the point of this entire article. Every manager in the world shouts at the lads on the touchline, its called managing. It is why the buck stops at the manager. It is his job.
If Moyes sat in the stand like Walter Smith did there would be an article entitled 'No respect - players running the show'.
What do you actually want our manager to do, carry the water?
I do not understand the point of this entire article. Every manager in the world shouts at the lads on the touchline, its called managing. It is why the buck stops at the manager. It is his job.
If Moyes sat in the stand like Walter Smith did there would be an article entitled 'No respect - players running the show'.
What do you actually want our manager to do, carry the water?
Noel (73) - "It certainly rolls off the tongue more than the ridiculously contrived "Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey" (did you really think THAT would stick?)".
Good one. I suggested to Peter he cut it down to TD4 to make it seem more a diagnosis like ADD or OCD. Might give a change from his and other members of the MOP usual defeatist posts. For example, "Peter "Dross with a capital C" Barry", although a good and justified idea, doesn't really roll off the tongue and who wants to type that every time? However, DWC2 is simple and easy. I like it.
On the other hand, the MOP seem to revel in pointless complaint (As this thread certainly proves. Managers shouting at players during games? Oh man!)). So who knows.
Anywho - Up the Table we go. Sure would like to see us with a true Predator. When's the last time we actually had one?
Good one. I suggested to Peter he cut it down to TD4 to make it seem more a diagnosis like ADD or OCD. Might give a change from his and other members of the MOP usual defeatist posts. For example, "Peter "Dross with a capital C" Barry", although a good and justified idea, doesn't really roll off the tongue and who wants to type that every time? However, DWC2 is simple and easy. I like it.
On the other hand, the MOP seem to revel in pointless complaint (As this thread certainly proves. Managers shouting at players during games? Oh man!)). So who knows.
Anywho - Up the Table we go. Sure would like to see us with a true Predator. When's the last time we actually had one?
Hi Noel and Tony J dont sulk lads just because you dont have any wit whatsoever. BTW 'Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey' isn't meant to be a slogan and is not designed to appeal to the masses its a merely description of our manager and his antics this season.
Peter #77
Know when to quit mate, give this thread up as a bad job
Know when to quit mate, give this thread up as a bad job
Ricardo 65
Dug it out on youtube, fantastic stuff cheered me no end, just wish we had more moments like it.
Sorry can't do the http thing but copied the title:
"Pienaar vs. Arsenal" without quotes.
Dug it out on youtube, fantastic stuff cheered me no end, just wish we had more moments like it.
Sorry can't do the http thing but copied the title:
"Pienaar vs. Arsenal" without quotes.
No it isn't Peter,
It's a charmless mantra compensating for the lack of a plausible argument.
It's a charmless mantra compensating for the lack of a plausible argument.
DROSS with a capital C. Brilliant! Give this one up Peter.
I'm not sulking Peter, not at all.
In fact you have lightened my mood in work.
That's LIGHTENED with a capital W
In fact you have lightened my mood in work.
That's LIGHTENED with a capital W
Was it a mistake?
CRAP with a capital D, perhaps.
CRAP with a capital D, perhaps.
Peter, Peter, slogan repeater.
That is just a description of you and not meant to be a slogan or appeal to the masses.
That is just a description of you and not meant to be a slogan or appeal to the masses.
James,
Yakubu. Moyes sold him after he never recovered from a bad injury.
Yakubu. Moyes sold him after he never recovered from a bad injury.
Its embarrassing that the manager doesn't believe he can just let his players play. Its embarrassing that he doesn't believe that they might be good enough or well prepared enough to know what to do. Its embarrassing that he comes across as a control freak. Its embarrassing that the players would probably be better off without any such specific instructions. Its embarrassing that the first thing coaches are taught is something Moyes ignores in Premier League games. Its embarrassing that he thinks professional footballers paid between £20-75k a week need to be told to 'pass it to TC', 'hit line'. Its embarrassing that he feels the need to make himself look important and involved.
How many ways do you want me to say it? Its not a strange comment at all.
And please bear in mind my point in #68 about the difference between giving a tactical instruction, or maybe even telling a player you're unhappy with something they're doing or have done, and persistently giving specific instructions to individual players about how to use the ball in a given situation. It makes no sense. Does he think that when they get over the far side of the pitch from him they don't know what to do?
How many ways do you want me to say it? Its not a strange comment at all.
And please bear in mind my point in #68 about the difference between giving a tactical instruction, or maybe even telling a player you're unhappy with something they're doing or have done, and persistently giving specific instructions to individual players about how to use the ball in a given situation. It makes no sense. Does he think that when they get over the far side of the pitch from him they don't know what to do?
You`d be embarressed following any team in the world then Mike.
Sorry mate, They all do it
Sorry mate, They all do it
Eric @58. I watched it and I specifically watched how Jack played. I'm very interested in seeing how the vast majority of the football world see him as an international level talent and a small group of Evertonians class him as rubbish.
If Moyes sat down and said nothing for 90 minutes he would be jumped on by punters who know a tiny fraction of what Moyes knows about the game and who would jump on him for being quiet and uncommunicative. Everybody in the ground shouts idiot comments at the players, it's called getting involved. Why the f*ck should a manager not do it? For me the crime would be if he didn't
If Moyes sat down and said nothing for 90 minutes he would be jumped on by punters who know a tiny fraction of what Moyes knows about the game and who would jump on him for being quiet and uncommunicative. Everybody in the ground shouts idiot comments at the players, it's called getting involved. Why the f*ck should a manager not do it? For me the crime would be if he didn't
I sort of go along with the "Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey" as, no secret here, I agree that he is all of those things. However, I do very much like the ring of "TD4"!
Thanks, James.
Thanks, James.
Martin thats a pretty sweeping statement you are using there "the majority of the football world", I'll let you off but it does strike me as very strange that both Jags and Rodwell in a national shirt have significantly better games than they do for their club side, how could that be and its not just a matter of the players around them I'm talking about how they individually handled themselves in tackles and distributing the ball.
Tony J and Noel, I sincerely apologise for saying you guys have no 'wit'. I have been assured you do indeed have 'wit', well HALF at least.
Kevin #80 writes 'It's a charmless mantra compensating for the lack of a plausible argument." So I presume that YOU Kevin think Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey Moyes is a tactical mastermind who makes most of his substitutions and team selections purely on tactical merits and not by loyalty to old players and by the CLOCK at all and that he is not a Dour Jock after all but the life and soul of the party with not a negative thought in his ginger head.
Kevin #80 writes 'It's a charmless mantra compensating for the lack of a plausible argument." So I presume that YOU Kevin think Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey Moyes is a tactical mastermind who makes most of his substitutions and team selections purely on tactical merits and not by loyalty to old players and by the CLOCK at all and that he is not a Dour Jock after all but the life and soul of the party with not a negative thought in his ginger head.
Say what you want Peter, call me a half wit. I am not the one who has spawned a new fad on here through stupidity.
That's FAD with a capital T.
Once again, the TD4 has spouted rubbush, nowhere does Kevin say that Moyes is a tactical matermind, he simply argues against your view that the manager of a Premier League team may actaully know something about the game. I would wager he would certainly know a lot more that a slogan maker.
Mike, I asked in what situation do you feel embarrassed? Who is this other person who you have the feelings of embarressment with? What person derides you into embarressment? It is a strange comment.
I don't need a list of what you consider to be things, mostly unproven, that are the sources of your apparent embarressment.
By the way, I scream at players to "put it out wide" sometimes. Would you be embarressed sitting next to me at the ground?
As I said, strange!
That's FAD with a capital T.
Once again, the TD4 has spouted rubbush, nowhere does Kevin say that Moyes is a tactical matermind, he simply argues against your view that the manager of a Premier League team may actaully know something about the game. I would wager he would certainly know a lot more that a slogan maker.
Mike, I asked in what situation do you feel embarrassed? Who is this other person who you have the feelings of embarressment with? What person derides you into embarressment? It is a strange comment.
I don't need a list of what you consider to be things, mostly unproven, that are the sources of your apparent embarressment.
By the way, I scream at players to "put it out wide" sometimes. Would you be embarressed sitting next to me at the ground?
As I said, strange!
Peter,
I've never 'partied,' with David Moyes, but I oppose your unimaginative attempts to lobby for his removal via a laptop. I regard him as the most consistent manager we've had in a generation, on account of his league returns. I also believe he could do so much more if, and when Kenwright wakes up & realises we're living in the 21st Century.
The insistent, childish sloganeering on your part tells me that you belong to the lunatic fringe of the Moyes Out Brigade.
That's your choice, but it may jar your perception to know that as one of his supporters, I do NOT think he's a tactical mastermind, as from my (comparatively ill-educated) perspective, I listed no fewer than ELEVEN flaws I believe he has.
(Source: The 'Moyes The Constantly Curious Thread.)
Therein lies the difference between an adult, well-rounded argument, and juvenile, one-eyed, foot-stamping of those who struggle to maintain a hold on more than one thought at a time.
I've never 'partied,' with David Moyes, but I oppose your unimaginative attempts to lobby for his removal via a laptop. I regard him as the most consistent manager we've had in a generation, on account of his league returns. I also believe he could do so much more if, and when Kenwright wakes up & realises we're living in the 21st Century.
The insistent, childish sloganeering on your part tells me that you belong to the lunatic fringe of the Moyes Out Brigade.
That's your choice, but it may jar your perception to know that as one of his supporters, I do NOT think he's a tactical mastermind, as from my (comparatively ill-educated) perspective, I listed no fewer than ELEVEN flaws I believe he has.
(Source: The 'Moyes The Constantly Curious Thread.)
Therein lies the difference between an adult, well-rounded argument, and juvenile, one-eyed, foot-stamping of those who struggle to maintain a hold on more than one thought at a time.
Tony J 'rubbush ' you say and who are we to deny it after all who knows what 'rubbush' is except maybe you.
Seems that you think that only you and whomsoever you think deserves consideration are to be allowed to comment on the pathetic tactics and devoid dross that Dour Davey has served up this season. They are HIS team selection HIS game tactics and HIS use of substitutes and so far with a one game exception all his substitutions were done by the clock or injury.
If you consider changing out our ONLY striker, when he had other strikers on the bench, for ANOTHER defender when we were drawing good tactics by an astute manager then I pity you. Moyes's teams are designed 'not to lose' and his team selection and use of substitutes simply follows that imperative. So Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey is a perfectly apt description of what he is and what he has foisted upon Everton's supporters this season.
Seems that you think that only you and whomsoever you think deserves consideration are to be allowed to comment on the pathetic tactics and devoid dross that Dour Davey has served up this season. They are HIS team selection HIS game tactics and HIS use of substitutes and so far with a one game exception all his substitutions were done by the clock or injury.
If you consider changing out our ONLY striker, when he had other strikers on the bench, for ANOTHER defender when we were drawing good tactics by an astute manager then I pity you. Moyes's teams are designed 'not to lose' and his team selection and use of substitutes simply follows that imperative. So Tactics Devoid Dithering Dour Davey is a perfectly apt description of what he is and what he has foisted upon Everton's supporters this season.
Peter "Dross with a capital C" Barry, you have spouted "rubbish". You stated that Kevin thinks Moyes is a tactical Mastermind, the poster himself after my post reiterates that he doesn't believe that, ergo you have posted rubbish. QED
I have no problems with people criticising Moyes, I do so myself but where I seem to get into more arguments/debates are when I believe the criticism is either incorrectly pointed in his direction or it is simply made up.
The alleged fact that he does make substitutes by time or injury (don't get this because it is a by product of said injury and done the same by every manager ever) is in fact a tactic, ergo there is one, so he can't be devoid of tactics.
Surely dithering would be to not make his changes by time but in a slow reaction to a scenario placed before him in a game?
Therefore it isn't an apt description at all really.
I have no problems with people criticising Moyes, I do so myself but where I seem to get into more arguments/debates are when I believe the criticism is either incorrectly pointed in his direction or it is simply made up.
The alleged fact that he does make substitutes by time or injury (don't get this because it is a by product of said injury and done the same by every manager ever) is in fact a tactic, ergo there is one, so he can't be devoid of tactics.
Surely dithering would be to not make his changes by time but in a slow reaction to a scenario placed before him in a game?
Therefore it isn't an apt description at all really.
I just get embarrassed when I see people doing stupid things, maybe I'm more empathetic than most then. I'm also a little embarrassed as an Everton fan that our manager does this, thank God no-one else has really noticed. And remember, I speak as someone who is not a Moyes 'basher' at all and usually writes in his defence.
The alternative to giving specific instructions to every player in every situation for every single piece of play isn't sitting down saying nothing. Those are two extremes on a spectrum. What 'they all do' is actually wait until they've spotted something that needs saying, a tactical adjustment or a general instruction of what they want from a player, and try to pass that on.
You don't hear any other manager telling a player with a ball at his feet where to pass the ball. That is something that only Moyes does as far as I am aware, and it certainly isn't done by any of the top coaches, Guardiola, Wenger, Alex Ferguson etc. in matches that I watch that don't involve Everton. I've also never an opposing manager do it in an Everton game.
I've already made that point once, its a bit wearing having to say the same things again because people don't read them properly or can't understand them the first time.
The alternative to giving specific instructions to every player in every situation for every single piece of play isn't sitting down saying nothing. Those are two extremes on a spectrum. What 'they all do' is actually wait until they've spotted something that needs saying, a tactical adjustment or a general instruction of what they want from a player, and try to pass that on.
You don't hear any other manager telling a player with a ball at his feet where to pass the ball. That is something that only Moyes does as far as I am aware, and it certainly isn't done by any of the top coaches, Guardiola, Wenger, Alex Ferguson etc. in matches that I watch that don't involve Everton. I've also never an opposing manager do it in an Everton game.
I've already made that point once, its a bit wearing having to say the same things again because people don't read them properly or can't understand them the first time.
'Substitutions by the clock'
What if in the dressing room tonight it was said.. 'Ok Landon, I realise you may need a run, so Im going to start you tonight to give the crowd a lift.. give it an hour and I will bring fresh legs on, same again on Saturday and then I reckon you will be ready for a full game'
Is this 'by the clock' or man management ?
Jack maybe had a similar chat before West Brom ?
What if in the dressing room tonight it was said.. 'Ok Landon, I realise you may need a run, so Im going to start you tonight to give the crowd a lift.. give it an hour and I will bring fresh legs on, same again on Saturday and then I reckon you will be ready for a full game'
Is this 'by the clock' or man management ?
Jack maybe had a similar chat before West Brom ?
"I just get embarrassed" - So it's a general embarrassment then? No-one to feel embarrassed for you? No neutral to share your feelings of embarrassment?
"You don't hear any other manager telling a player with a ball at his feet where to pass the ball. That is something that only Moyes does as far as I am aware" - Seriously, you have never heard one manager in your entire life of watching football tell a player where to pass it? Hmmmm, not entirely sure I believe that.
"You don't hear any other manager telling a player with a ball at his feet where to pass the ball. That is something that only Moyes does as far as I am aware" - Seriously, you have never heard one manager in your entire life of watching football tell a player where to pass it? Hmmmm, not entirely sure I believe that.
I heard Mancini telling players where to play the ball in the match last night. Also, Mancini is a manager who is constantly on the touch line giving instructions to his team. Doesn't seem to be hurting them too much. I'm sure his job is much easier though given the amount of talent he can instruct compared to Moyes.
With a respectful nod to the great Joe Royle, (circa 95) the ten years dating from 92'-02 saw Everton becoming one of the worst teams in the Premier League.
Contrast the consistent top ten returns during Moyes's decade: I think we can all agree they represent a significant improvement.
Therefore, whatever it is this "control freak," has instructed the players to do, has worked better than his predecessors.
(For the record: I have also seen Guardiola berating the best team in the world, with my own eyes).
Contrast the consistent top ten returns during Moyes's decade: I think we can all agree they represent a significant improvement.
Therefore, whatever it is this "control freak," has instructed the players to do, has worked better than his predecessors.
(For the record: I have also seen Guardiola berating the best team in the world, with my own eyes).
Kevin, I agree our demise has been gradual, but I think there's semantics when defining "worst teams in the PL".
Yes, Moyes has overall over-achieved compared to his predecessors, but this needs to be set against a couple of poor finishes (4th from bottom), and a bigger relative budget.
I have in the past worked for a media company, and dealt with many broadcasters in Asia / Middle East. Under the overseas contract, they are pretty much free to select what games they show. I accept that in the past the "Sky 4" would dominate, but then a lot of these broadcasters started putting out 5-6 games live simultaneously, under an extension and variation to the Overseas deal. If they had to leave 1 or 2 teams off the roster, it'd invariably be us unless we were playing one of the media darlings. Because, we're just not very good to watch, and on the whole, we haven't been for some years.
Yes, Moyes has overall over-achieved compared to his predecessors, but this needs to be set against a couple of poor finishes (4th from bottom), and a bigger relative budget.
I have in the past worked for a media company, and dealt with many broadcasters in Asia / Middle East. Under the overseas contract, they are pretty much free to select what games they show. I accept that in the past the "Sky 4" would dominate, but then a lot of these broadcasters started putting out 5-6 games live simultaneously, under an extension and variation to the Overseas deal. If they had to leave 1 or 2 teams off the roster, it'd invariably be us unless we were playing one of the media darlings. Because, we're just not very good to watch, and on the whole, we haven't been for some years.
Matt
"a couple of poor finishes(4th from bottom)" . .care to name the other one ?
Oh and "a bigger relative budget" what ? ? ? . .relative to what ? You cant mean the opposition, because no Everton manager has ever had to operate with zero spend while 7-8 of his rivals were in a position to attract the best players in the world.
"a couple of poor finishes(4th from bottom)" . .care to name the other one ?
Oh and "a bigger relative budget" what ? ? ? . .relative to what ? You cant mean the opposition, because no Everton manager has ever had to operate with zero spend while 7-8 of his rivals were in a position to attract the best players in the world.
Matt,
I couldn't give a proverbial rat's arse what preference the Asian/ Mid-East market has for streaming live EPL games.
This has no bearing whatsoever on the Gaffer's touchline demeanor being ridiculously knit-picked (to Blue-arsed fly proportions,) by navel-gazing fuckwits who ought to focus their attention on to the park instead.
Or alternatively, if they physically can, they should drag their arses up to Goodison tonight, rather than sitting on them tapping into an illegal TV feed.
...Whilst lobbying for Moyes's removal via the laptop, forever searching for more avenues with which to bring the man down. and practically revelling, as they undoutedly will be, if we lose tonight, without their much-needed support for both team, AND manager.
I couldn't give a proverbial rat's arse what preference the Asian/ Mid-East market has for streaming live EPL games.
This has no bearing whatsoever on the Gaffer's touchline demeanor being ridiculously knit-picked (to Blue-arsed fly proportions,) by navel-gazing fuckwits who ought to focus their attention on to the park instead.
Or alternatively, if they physically can, they should drag their arses up to Goodison tonight, rather than sitting on them tapping into an illegal TV feed.
...Whilst lobbying for Moyes's removal via the laptop, forever searching for more avenues with which to bring the man down. and practically revelling, as they undoutedly will be, if we lose tonight, without their much-needed support for both team, AND manager.
Dave (102), I would consider 05/06's 11th place a poor finish, and a failure to build on the previous 4th.
The relative budget comment was in wages / fees (and I accept that a number of big ticket players were sold in this time). I consider that he has had more to work with than Smith, unless you are telling me that Smith's collection of geriatric journeymen was by choice?
Kevin (103), without meaning to stray off-topic (though it is mentioned on another thread about crowds being down), I was pointing out that if Everton fans think we're fucking terrible to watch, it's a fair bet that neutrals do as well. This was in response to your statement that we'd become one of the "worst" teams in the league. I was merely pointing out that it can be in terms of points accumulated, or to watch (or both of course).
The relative budget comment was in wages / fees (and I accept that a number of big ticket players were sold in this time). I consider that he has had more to work with than Smith, unless you are telling me that Smith's collection of geriatric journeymen was by choice?
Kevin (103), without meaning to stray off-topic (though it is mentioned on another thread about crowds being down), I was pointing out that if Everton fans think we're fucking terrible to watch, it's a fair bet that neutrals do as well. This was in response to your statement that we'd become one of the "worst" teams in the league. I was merely pointing out that it can be in terms of points accumulated, or to watch (or both of course).
Matt considering you couldn't give a rats arse you have had quite a lot to say..........and most of it one eyed.
The thread was all geared around wether he controls the players to much and not about getting him the sack and let's get one thing right just because I live overseas and can't get to the game doesnt make you anymore of a blue than me.
If anything I would say you support Moyes Utd in fact you are probably chairman of the fan club.
But then again as far as you are concerned my opinion doesn't count. What an arsehole.
The thread was all geared around wether he controls the players to much and not about getting him the sack and let's get one thing right just because I live overseas and can't get to the game doesnt make you anymore of a blue than me.
If anything I would say you support Moyes Utd in fact you are probably chairman of the fan club.
But then again as far as you are concerned my opinion doesn't count. What an arsehole.
Sorry Matt this post is meant for Kevin.
Sorry Matt this post is meant for Kevin.
Tony I have in the park amongst amateurs. That's why its embarrassing.
I really don't get your issue with the word embarrassing either.
I really don't get your issue with the word embarrassing either.
Paul,
I said I couldb't give a "rat's arse," about the Asian television market. If you're going to quote me - get the context & meaning right.
Nor have I criticised supporters who live overseas, this is why I used the term "..if they physically can.. (get to the game)." Again - do not contextually mis-represent me.
Here's a tip: Using ToffeWeb's own search-engine, why not peruse the thread entitled: "Moyes the Constantly Curious," to see if your assertion that I'm "probably chairman of Moyes's fan club," REALLY stacks-up.
(Clue: It does not).
So...given that you're totally wrong on these 3 counts, and due to our disagreement with the premise that Moyes is a control freak, I have no problem being regarded as an "arsehole," from some random knit-picker sat in a Nairobi armchair..
(Off to Goodison).
I said I couldb't give a "rat's arse," about the Asian television market. If you're going to quote me - get the context & meaning right.
Nor have I criticised supporters who live overseas, this is why I used the term "..if they physically can.. (get to the game)." Again - do not contextually mis-represent me.
Here's a tip: Using ToffeWeb's own search-engine, why not peruse the thread entitled: "Moyes the Constantly Curious," to see if your assertion that I'm "probably chairman of Moyes's fan club," REALLY stacks-up.
(Clue: It does not).
So...given that you're totally wrong on these 3 counts, and due to our disagreement with the premise that Moyes is a control freak, I have no problem being regarded as an "arsehole," from some random knit-picker sat in a Nairobi armchair..
(Off to Goodison).
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1 Posted 02/01/2012 at 15:05:23
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Moyes starts out way too defensive. It looked as though we were facing City, but we were playing a poor WBA side, and if he had been a little more offensive and had he taken off Neville and Saha sooner, then the result would have been much better. This grinding out result thing is not going to work for us, as we do not have the striking force to put the chances away after selling Yakubu and Beckford.