Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Kick it Out
65 Comments: I did not attend last night's (Spurs) game. A mate of mine did and texted me this during the second half:
"Geoff and I left the match early. Not cos we were getting destroyed. It's cos we were sat with the biggest racists I've ever encountered at a football match. Hitler chants, nigger shouts, monkey noises oh and gas chamber noises. Disgusting. Really really sad."
Is this the kind of behaviour that we accept amongst match-going Evertonians? I accept there is a bit of not dobbing in your own fans but this is surely the sort of thing (especially in the current climate) that should be brought to the attention of the club & stewards etc.
I hope that there were a few there last night who were/are prepared to do that.
Colin Huntington, Posted 12/01/2012 at 09:14:40
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Colin if you just walk away and all you do is put it on TW or twitter, facebook etc then you are effectively tolerating this racist behaviour from our so called "fans".
Its not just kopites who are gobshites is it?
Its not just kopites who are gobshites is it?
For some reason people seem to think that when you're at Spurs this is somehow more acceptable. Last time I went to WHL was for the defeat in the Carling Cup and it was even more miserable. First, the Spurs fans decided to pelt us with missiles, and a little lad in front of me started crying when he got hit by a coin. When I asked the stewards if they were going to do anything about it I got told by them "It's not our fucking problem is it?" A sizeable minority of our fans responded with hissing and one particularly vile individual in front of me started screaming "to the gas". I honestly struggle to comprehend this level of ignorance and bigotry.
This time I heard a depressing amount of hissing noises whenever Spurs fans chanted something towards us. Despicable. I think hissing is particularly cowardly as it is particularly difficult to identify from the stewards perspective.
On another note though, I'm always amazed at how permissive the stewards are towards away fans, particularly when it comes to racism. On both my visits to WHL in the past few years many of the fans shouting abuse were clearly identifiable and yet they decide it's not worth the bother. A part of me understands not wanting to square up to an angry pissed nobhead, but the other part of me thinks it's their bloody job (and they're always eagle eyed and keen to jump on someone who's snuck their beer in from the bar).
We've come a long way from being "the whites of Merseyside" but we still have a minority (2-5%) of total bell-ends who shout things that are just too far. Notice the lack of gloating and finger pointing after a couple of Kopites shouted racist abuse at the Oldham player. We knew it could just have easily been one of ours shouting something similar.
This time I heard a depressing amount of hissing noises whenever Spurs fans chanted something towards us. Despicable. I think hissing is particularly cowardly as it is particularly difficult to identify from the stewards perspective.
On another note though, I'm always amazed at how permissive the stewards are towards away fans, particularly when it comes to racism. On both my visits to WHL in the past few years many of the fans shouting abuse were clearly identifiable and yet they decide it's not worth the bother. A part of me understands not wanting to square up to an angry pissed nobhead, but the other part of me thinks it's their bloody job (and they're always eagle eyed and keen to jump on someone who's snuck their beer in from the bar).
We've come a long way from being "the whites of Merseyside" but we still have a minority (2-5%) of total bell-ends who shout things that are just too far. Notice the lack of gloating and finger pointing after a couple of Kopites shouted racist abuse at the Oldham player. We knew it could just have easily been one of ours shouting something similar.
Shameful. And this is a group of so-called supporters, not a single individual.
Well done in outing this, Colin.
Well done in outing this, Colin.
I was at the game last night. I took my friend's 8-year-old son. He is mixed race. Fortunately, he did not hear any of the racist abuse (at least I don't think so) but the hissing sounds continued throughout the match and, as has already been said, this is totally cowardly. Again, fortunately he did not understand the connotations of this...
Exactly right, and Diane Abbott should be in court faster than Gareth Bale skins an opponent.
Racism cuts both ways, because if it doesn't then you're all full of brainwashed shite!
Racism cuts both ways, because if it doesn't then you're all full of brainwashed shite!
There was racist chanting from a sizable number of our fans at the West Brom away game last year. It was a big shock to me as I hadn't heard anything like this for years and thought that this element had gone. I wrote to the club to report the incident and received a response condemning this.
I feel embarrassed that the club I support is represented in this way and am determined to do my bit to highlight this sort of behaviour. Clearly what I heard isn't an isolated incident and I'd like to see some sort of statement coming out of the club acknowledging what is going on and condemning it. I understand that it isn't an issue that people feel comfortable highlighting but not addressing it clearly isn't the answer
I feel embarrassed that the club I support is represented in this way and am determined to do my bit to highlight this sort of behaviour. Clearly what I heard isn't an isolated incident and I'd like to see some sort of statement coming out of the club acknowledging what is going on and condemning it. I understand that it isn't an issue that people feel comfortable highlighting but not addressing it clearly isn't the answer
It is time for the shouting or chanting of any kind of abuse to stop. It is simply unacceptable.
From my experience, this kind of chanting isn't done out of hatred and with venom but because they know they shouldn't and is therefore funny as they know they'll get away with it. I'm not justifying the behaviour but from my experience it's more childishness than hardcore nazism. It's a joke to the people who do it because they get away with it.
I know what your saying Alex, but to start making hissing sounds replicating the gas chambers, is a bit more than childishness.
Had the misfortune to be sat in front of a gang of racists at the Newcastle away match last season. Cowardly as I am, I said and did nothing. You can hardly use reason to appeal to these morons, can you?
Don't know what you're on about, James Thomas. I attended that very same game and was stood right by the Spurs fans and there was no trouble at all.
I think we have a divide in our support the fans from Liverpool and the southern-based blues. Liverpool has a tiny tiny black population, there are 2 Jamaican takeaways and a Somali shop, that sums it up really. With the exception of Toxteth, the rest of Liverpool's suburbs are 99% white. Although some people have black friends, particularly those who go to Uni here, there's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to a black person.
Everybody knows 'Paki' is an offensive word as there are always local shops and off licenses that are owned by Asian families. Racist comments are frowned upon like they are in London.
Racism and ignorance are too separate things: Suarez deliberately using words to offend. A lot of these people just use the N-word to describe black people, not to offend them. Ignorance is not racism.
I think we have a divide in our support the fans from Liverpool and the southern-based blues. Liverpool has a tiny tiny black population, there are 2 Jamaican takeaways and a Somali shop, that sums it up really. With the exception of Toxteth, the rest of Liverpool's suburbs are 99% white. Although some people have black friends, particularly those who go to Uni here, there's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to a black person.
Everybody knows 'Paki' is an offensive word as there are always local shops and off licenses that are owned by Asian families. Racist comments are frowned upon like they are in London.
Racism and ignorance are too separate things: Suarez deliberately using words to offend. A lot of these people just use the N-word to describe black people, not to offend them. Ignorance is not racism.
Sadly we live in a world filled with ignorant morons everywhere mostly due to the fact of poor upbringing and peer pressure from extremist groups that they associate with. They are easily brainwashed and once afflicted never really understand anything else.
As young kids we did use certain words towards others not just people who didn't look like us but anyone who stood out. This was because we were not old enough and thought it was funny especially when we were in a group. Most of us matured and learnt respect by the time we became teenagers but there is absolutely no excuse for anyone older picking on minorities and other races.
These morons should be rounded up and horsewhipped but thanks to all the do-gooders in society, corporal punishment has been abolished and all they get now is a slap on the wrist which means they go out and repeat their actions over and over.
Football is not the only game that attracts this vermin. It is rife all over the world in many different forms.
As young kids we did use certain words towards others not just people who didn't look like us but anyone who stood out. This was because we were not old enough and thought it was funny especially when we were in a group. Most of us matured and learnt respect by the time we became teenagers but there is absolutely no excuse for anyone older picking on minorities and other races.
These morons should be rounded up and horsewhipped but thanks to all the do-gooders in society, corporal punishment has been abolished and all they get now is a slap on the wrist which means they go out and repeat their actions over and over.
Football is not the only game that attracts this vermin. It is rife all over the world in many different forms.
I haven't been to an away game for years now, as I couldn't stand the ignorance of a lot of those who go not to support the club, but to look for trouble. I know things were worse in the 70's but at least then we hardly had any low paid stewards, but lots of POLICE inside the ground. The reason for this is greed. Clubs are being held to ransom by selfish individuals and their agents so can't afford proper policing costs. Only last week Gillingham's game against Stoke, surely a very high risk factor with all the Pulis trouble, was nearly called off by the council because the club wanted no police, just stewards to police the ground. The club relented but it shows how idiots are allowed to ruin a game for others with impunity. If there were a large amount of coppers around, you can bet they wouldn't be so brave. I know if I was a steward I certainly wouldn't risk being seriously injured just for a few extra quid. So until the clubs stop giving money to the wrong people and pay for proper Police officers, I'm afraid the problem won't go away
I've never been impressed with our away support.
Benfica away was the end for me. For some reason the worst kind of vermin turn up
Benfica away was the end for me. For some reason the worst kind of vermin turn up
I was a WHL last year near some racist morons, ruined the day. Made a note of the seat numbers they were in and sent the details to both clubs. Nothing from WHL and a letter from EFC thanking for the information, but never heard anything else. Its the only way to identify them is send in there seat number if possible.
I was also at WHL for last years game. It was one of my three games i saw after coming from Australia. I was absolutely appalled by the racist comments that were thrown around. Only one person, a young teen with a mullet, was thrown out.
Bit harsh labeling all our away support as 'vermin' there Andy.
Morons are everywhere in society, not just at football. Saddens me that some of our fans are ignorant like that. I don't think it's the fact they actually agree with what they're saying, it's more the fact they know they'll never get caught. Not defending it by any means, but shouting something offensive at a footy match doesn't make you racist. Just moronic in the highest order.
Though I suppose if I was black or Jewish I'd want the dickhead who shouted it strung up from the neares pillar!
Horrible thing racism, and any discrimination in general. Just I don't think the dickheads who say stuff like that are inherrently racist, just absoolute bell-ends.
Morons are everywhere in society, not just at football. Saddens me that some of our fans are ignorant like that. I don't think it's the fact they actually agree with what they're saying, it's more the fact they know they'll never get caught. Not defending it by any means, but shouting something offensive at a footy match doesn't make you racist. Just moronic in the highest order.
Though I suppose if I was black or Jewish I'd want the dickhead who shouted it strung up from the neares pillar!
Horrible thing racism, and any discrimination in general. Just I don't think the dickheads who say stuff like that are inherrently racist, just absoolute bell-ends.
Don't know why anyone's surprised that this goes on. I work all over the UK and speak to lots of people from all walks of life, my experience {only anecdotal admittedly } is that, you only have to engage someone in conversation for 10 minutes, before some sort of racist view is offered as the blame for the countries ills, it's sad that this sort of thing is still an issue in the 21st century, but my view is, that its worse now than in any other time in my life.
We, like any other club, have our share of morons, most of whom are sheep who are too thick to realise the hurt and resentment this causes, but don't kid yourselves that it's a small minority of our fanbase, 25% of our home following are quite happy to sing murderers at every derby game, and are probably the same people who chant their racist bile at our away games.
We, like any other club, have our share of morons, most of whom are sheep who are too thick to realise the hurt and resentment this causes, but don't kid yourselves that it's a small minority of our fanbase, 25% of our home following are quite happy to sing murderers at every derby game, and are probably the same people who chant their racist bile at our away games.
Agree with you Steve. Its not surprising though when you see something like the UK's newspaper circulation figures. Three million Sun's, two million Daily Mail, one million Daily Mirror's, 700k Daily Stars and most disturbingly of all 600k+ Daily Express. No wonder so many people are ignorant, stupid and have racist views and tenancies.
*Tendencies
Not EVERYONE in the away section can be tarred with this brush. You'll ALWAYS get nobheads when there is a big bunch of people together.
I have to say though by walking away you're just turning your back on it. If it does bother you then you should say something at the time, or at least tell a local pig in the crowd.
Racism in our society - just like ANY other type of abuse - is rife. Don't you think that, "the baby's not yours" (et al) chant directed at that 'orrible twat from over the road, should come under this banner too?
I agree is disgusting, but unless you're prepared to put up with it, you'll have to say something next time bud; if you're not then don't go anymore.
Simple as that.
I have to say though by walking away you're just turning your back on it. If it does bother you then you should say something at the time, or at least tell a local pig in the crowd.
Racism in our society - just like ANY other type of abuse - is rife. Don't you think that, "the baby's not yours" (et al) chant directed at that 'orrible twat from over the road, should come under this banner too?
I agree is disgusting, but unless you're prepared to put up with it, you'll have to say something next time bud; if you're not then don't go anymore.
Simple as that.
Our club is doing a good enough job of making it into a national embarrassment without a minority of mindless, bigoted thugs giving it a helping hand.
These aren't "supporters". They're bigots who tag onto football to show their true colours.
Depressing.
These aren't "supporters". They're bigots who tag onto football to show their true colours.
Depressing.
Andy, I don't think racism is rife in society. It's totally out of order but does seem more prevalent at away games, especially amongst younger supporters so when some other poster claimed it was partly down to ignorance, I disagree.
Abuse you refer to such as shouting the baby's not yours etc is not the same thing and I don't believe should come under same banner
Abuse you refer to such as shouting the baby's not yours etc is not the same thing and I don't believe should come under same banner
Abuse is abuse lad...... I admit it wasn't a very good example, but *he who shall not be named* probably finds those chants abusive; if you see what I mean.
What is the difference in someone abusing someone for the colour of their skin / relegious beliefs to if they're absusing them because they're overweight / have learning difficulties? Both are very hurtful and cause just as much personal offense, so there is no difference on that level whatsoever.
How the hell can one type of 'abuse' be worse than another - it's all abuse. If someone is offended then that's unacceptable; doesn't matter what type of abuse it is.
Anyway, these people are a fuckin' disrace and should be banned. I'm sure we agree on that point mate.....!!!!!!!!!
NSNO
What is the difference in someone abusing someone for the colour of their skin / relegious beliefs to if they're absusing them because they're overweight / have learning difficulties? Both are very hurtful and cause just as much personal offense, so there is no difference on that level whatsoever.
How the hell can one type of 'abuse' be worse than another - it's all abuse. If someone is offended then that's unacceptable; doesn't matter what type of abuse it is.
Anyway, these people are a fuckin' disrace and should be banned. I'm sure we agree on that point mate.....!!!!!!!!!
NSNO
Andy, a massive difference. Racist morons should be booted out and arrested.
If someone is overweight it's because they eat too many calories. A big difference to abusing someone because they are disabled or because they have different religious beliefs or because of colour of their skin.
If I start shouting / screaming "Who ate all the pies?" or "You fat bastard!" a hell of a difference to shouting "You fucking black cunt!".
I do take your point that it is a bit out of order shouting those chants at LFC's captain, would not dream of doing it in the street, but at the match, I think it's fair game ? he's a professional footballer and if he can't take that stick, then tough cheese or his manager should take him out of the firing line.
If someone is overweight it's because they eat too many calories. A big difference to abusing someone because they are disabled or because they have different religious beliefs or because of colour of their skin.
If I start shouting / screaming "Who ate all the pies?" or "You fat bastard!" a hell of a difference to shouting "You fucking black cunt!".
I do take your point that it is a bit out of order shouting those chants at LFC's captain, would not dream of doing it in the street, but at the match, I think it's fair game ? he's a professional footballer and if he can't take that stick, then tough cheese or his manager should take him out of the firing line.
"Is this the kind of behaviour that we accept amongst match-going Evertonians? "
How's that then? How are "we" accepting it?
There are always dickheads and unfortunately there are a lot of dickheads in our away fans.
Went to Fulham away a few years back and it was disgusting....nothings changed, however if the stewards at the ground won't do anything about it, what are the "nice" fans to do?
How's that then? How are "we" accepting it?
There are always dickheads and unfortunately there are a lot of dickheads in our away fans.
Went to Fulham away a few years back and it was disgusting....nothings changed, however if the stewards at the ground won't do anything about it, what are the "nice" fans to do?
Yeah, its as if we dont get abuse on here either! Wake up guys, it exists in all forms and in all walks of life. It aint right but dont pretend you have never been guilty of some form of abuse. You either turn a blind eye or you stand up to it. If you do the latter be prepared for a lot of unwarranted crap.
Its the way life is because we all say things out of ignorance, sometimes unwittingly but nevertheless it does not make abuse any less painful to the recipient.
Its the way life is because we all say things out of ignorance, sometimes unwittingly but nevertheless it does not make abuse any less painful to the recipient.
I was at Goodison in approx 2005 for a match against Spurs (when Redknapp crocked Cahill) with my Spurs supporting brother in law. I was shocked and embarrased by the hissing through much of the game - and this was in the relatively moderate Park End. Unacceptable and unfunny. Shame there seemed to be no effort to tackle it - I realise it is hard to spot people hissing but there could have been comment in the matchday programme etc.
David Moore, that bit on the end was magic - "Only one person, a young teen with a mullet, was thrown out."
Haha. I know this is a serious thread, but the fact that you point out he had a mullet is both funny, and a bit telling of the issue here.
Haha. I know this is a serious thread, but the fact that you point out he had a mullet is both funny, and a bit telling of the issue here.
Chris Butler at 188. What fucking world or City should I say do you live in??? Your comment of "Liverpool has a tiny tiny black population, there are 2 Jamaican takeaways and a Somali shop, that sums it up really. With the exception of Toxteth, the rest of Liverpool's suburbs are 99% white.
How long have you frequented Toxteth or drove through Toxteth and noted the 2 Jamaican shops and 1 somali shop and how long has Toxteth been part of the suburbs, and if you think suburbia is populated by 99% white people then in the multi-cultural society we live in you may find that your figures may be slightly off.
There is a misconception that EVERY black person/supporter lives in Toxteth. That's not the Liverpool I know and I have many friends ALL OVER LIVERPOOL not just Toxteth who fall into the ethnic bracket.
As for your comment of "Although some people have black friends, particularly those who go to Uni here, there's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to a black person."
Do you honestly think that at some point in a scouser's existence, the "sizeable number of people" have never spoken to a black or person of another ethnicity other than the odd student mate they may have from outside of the pool or may bump into?
Your comments are baffling and condescending to say the least and I'm struggling to see exactly what point you were trying to get across.
Oh and can I ask "when did you represent the sizeable number of people?" or have you been out and about collating this information through a city centre street survey and just averaging your figures for your quite farcical contribution to this thread.
Just on the subject for a moment of kicking it out, unfortunately there is a small minority who still live in the dark ages and I'm talking from experience and haave witnessed this first hand at numerous AWAYS and unfortunately the odd HOME GAME too. It won't stop and is very sad, but was and will always be part of the world we live in. All's I would say is that, if you ever did see a fellow blue expressing himself in such a disgusting manner, REPORT HIM TO THE NEAREST steward and then let them/police/club deal with them accordingly because, as has already been stated, this is NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR !
How long have you frequented Toxteth or drove through Toxteth and noted the 2 Jamaican shops and 1 somali shop and how long has Toxteth been part of the suburbs, and if you think suburbia is populated by 99% white people then in the multi-cultural society we live in you may find that your figures may be slightly off.
There is a misconception that EVERY black person/supporter lives in Toxteth. That's not the Liverpool I know and I have many friends ALL OVER LIVERPOOL not just Toxteth who fall into the ethnic bracket.
As for your comment of "Although some people have black friends, particularly those who go to Uni here, there's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to a black person."
Do you honestly think that at some point in a scouser's existence, the "sizeable number of people" have never spoken to a black or person of another ethnicity other than the odd student mate they may have from outside of the pool or may bump into?
Your comments are baffling and condescending to say the least and I'm struggling to see exactly what point you were trying to get across.
Oh and can I ask "when did you represent the sizeable number of people?" or have you been out and about collating this information through a city centre street survey and just averaging your figures for your quite farcical contribution to this thread.
Just on the subject for a moment of kicking it out, unfortunately there is a small minority who still live in the dark ages and I'm talking from experience and haave witnessed this first hand at numerous AWAYS and unfortunately the odd HOME GAME too. It won't stop and is very sad, but was and will always be part of the world we live in. All's I would say is that, if you ever did see a fellow blue expressing himself in such a disgusting manner, REPORT HIM TO THE NEAREST steward and then let them/police/club deal with them accordingly because, as has already been stated, this is NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOUR !
My point is that both Liverpool-based teams have had problems with racism. Another club whose fans people allege to be racist are Newcastle. What is the connection? Both cities have very small Asian and Black populations.
I never said there are people in Liverpool who haven't spoken to somebody of a different ethnic heritage to themselves. Asians in Liverpool are not stuck in ghettos, I know lots of Chinese and Indian people who have lived in Liverpool without any problems at all.
There's nobody in Liverpool who hasn't spoken to some Asian or Eastern European in their time in Liverpool. I didn't say all black people lived in Toxteth, I said that the only area with a significant Black population was Toxteth. My point was while you get the odd black person living in suburbs and the outskirts of the city, there's still not a huge number.
Most of Liverpool's black population are mixed race anyway so my point was there are many people ignorant to African and West Indian culture even today. If you go to Manchester you see Black people in every area, you find shops and takeaways that sell Jamaican and African products.
If these people spoke to a black person for 10 minutes they'd probably stop using racist language. Why do you think the BNP concentrate their efforts on edge of town council estates where actually few immigrants live? It's because they know they are less likely to have friends and family of immigrant descent? Meaning there is greater chance that they'd vote for the BNP.
The idea of rainbow Britain that people like Ken Livingstone promote simply doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. Yes, in some cities like Birmingham, Manchester and London it may do but most areas of Britain remain largely white.
On another point Dianne Abbott, possibly one of the most racist politicians in Britain today has made six racist statements all of which have gone unpunished. Until the courts start of punish people for their racist beliefs, people like Suarez, Dianne Abbott and our racist element will remain.
I never said there are people in Liverpool who haven't spoken to somebody of a different ethnic heritage to themselves. Asians in Liverpool are not stuck in ghettos, I know lots of Chinese and Indian people who have lived in Liverpool without any problems at all.
There's nobody in Liverpool who hasn't spoken to some Asian or Eastern European in their time in Liverpool. I didn't say all black people lived in Toxteth, I said that the only area with a significant Black population was Toxteth. My point was while you get the odd black person living in suburbs and the outskirts of the city, there's still not a huge number.
Most of Liverpool's black population are mixed race anyway so my point was there are many people ignorant to African and West Indian culture even today. If you go to Manchester you see Black people in every area, you find shops and takeaways that sell Jamaican and African products.
If these people spoke to a black person for 10 minutes they'd probably stop using racist language. Why do you think the BNP concentrate their efforts on edge of town council estates where actually few immigrants live? It's because they know they are less likely to have friends and family of immigrant descent? Meaning there is greater chance that they'd vote for the BNP.
The idea of rainbow Britain that people like Ken Livingstone promote simply doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. Yes, in some cities like Birmingham, Manchester and London it may do but most areas of Britain remain largely white.
On another point Dianne Abbott, possibly one of the most racist politicians in Britain today has made six racist statements all of which have gone unpunished. Until the courts start of punish people for their racist beliefs, people like Suarez, Dianne Abbott and our racist element will remain.
Chris (#110): I never said there are people in Liverpool who haven't spoken to somebody of a different ethnic heritage to themselves.
But you did say: There's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to a black person. It's up there at #188 for all to see.
So which is it, Chris??? It's a stupid thing to say in the first place, so why even go there?
You seem to like commenting on fan behaviour of one form or another, yet you often make bizarre statements or worse. I'd caution you to be very careful what you write, and to read it though to make sure you are not saying something daft.
But you did say: There's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to a black person. It's up there at #188 for all to see.
So which is it, Chris??? It's a stupid thing to say in the first place, so why even go there?
You seem to like commenting on fan behaviour of one form or another, yet you often make bizarre statements or worse. I'd caution you to be very careful what you write, and to read it though to make sure you are not saying something daft.
Different ethnic heritage is different from black.
Chris, can you explain that a little more please. Your response doesn't make any sense.
You originally said: There's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to a black person.
In context, that is identical to There's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to somebody of a different ethnic heritage to themselves.
What exactly are you trying to say?
You originally said: There's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to a black person.
In context, that is identical to There's a sizable number of people in Liverpool who have never spoken to somebody of a different ethnic heritage to themselves.
What exactly are you trying to say?
Peter Warren #418 - I disagree. You say: "If someone is overweight it's because they eat too many calories. A big difference to abusing someone because they are disabled or because they have different religious beliefs or because of colour of their skin."
What then about shouting: "You baldy cunt" or "Summerbee, you big-nosed twat!" - two examples of 'normal' abuse hurled at footballers, of which they have no control due to their genetics. Why is this 'acceptable?' It simply doesn't make sense.
What then about shouting: "You baldy cunt" or "Summerbee, you big-nosed twat!" - two examples of 'normal' abuse hurled at footballers, of which they have no control due to their genetics. Why is this 'acceptable?' It simply doesn't make sense.
Fair point you make. They're all insults of course. Meaning they can upset people. Comes down to your moral stance. I personally don't generally throw insults at people. I don't do it at match either but admit I find chants at Gerard and others funny at times. I think those sorts of things fair game at footy match and part of intimidation and trying to put one over the other team.
When I played football, I used to get involved in that kind of slanging match too ? I would never say it off-field but on-field I think it's fair banter. Just my view and I can totally understand why others take the higher moral ground. But to compare that too racism ? I just think they're miles apart ? but all down to your own moral code.
When I played football, I used to get involved in that kind of slanging match too ? I would never say it off-field but on-field I think it's fair banter. Just my view and I can totally understand why others take the higher moral ground. But to compare that too racism ? I just think they're miles apart ? but all down to your own moral code.
It's never as black and white (no pun intended) as simply saying "That's acceptable" or not.
It'd be hypocritical of me to say that I've never given anyone abuse at the match - actually it'd be a downright lie, but what annoys me is the seemingly two-tier approach we have to 'verbal abuse' (in society in general) where we can't sing 'Baa baa black sheep' in nursery yet it's ok for me to be labelled a 'thieving scouse bastard' (or something of that ilk) every time I go to an away match.
Now, I remember a few years ago going to Sunderland, and the police up there took no shit at all ? Everton fans were being thrown out for swearing at their own players (which is, as you'll know, par for the course). The ramifications of this were that heavy-set, hairy-knuckled Evertonians were coming out with some of the most flowery language I've ever heard: "For Christ's Sake," "Goodness me!" (and I shit you not) "Cripes!" This was almost as hilarious as Abel Xavier's attempts at 'defending.'
Now, I have no love for the police in the North-East, we're treated like cattle at Newcastle, Sunderland, Boro etc. But that's one thing that they got right that day.
It'd be hypocritical of me to say that I've never given anyone abuse at the match - actually it'd be a downright lie, but what annoys me is the seemingly two-tier approach we have to 'verbal abuse' (in society in general) where we can't sing 'Baa baa black sheep' in nursery yet it's ok for me to be labelled a 'thieving scouse bastard' (or something of that ilk) every time I go to an away match.
Now, I remember a few years ago going to Sunderland, and the police up there took no shit at all ? Everton fans were being thrown out for swearing at their own players (which is, as you'll know, par for the course). The ramifications of this were that heavy-set, hairy-knuckled Evertonians were coming out with some of the most flowery language I've ever heard: "For Christ's Sake," "Goodness me!" (and I shit you not) "Cripes!" This was almost as hilarious as Abel Xavier's attempts at 'defending.'
Now, I have no love for the police in the North-East, we're treated like cattle at Newcastle, Sunderland, Boro etc. But that's one thing that they got right that day.
How does Chris Butler know that a 'sizeable number of people in Liverpool have never spoken to a black person'?
Well for some reason a sizable amount of my response seems to have got lost in cyber space. So I'll try again to add by the bit that has been lost so my comment makes sense. In my opinion and many other people's opnions the problem with racism is Liverpool is a complex 1. But I'll try and give you an example of how serious racism was in Liverpool even 10 years ago. I'll use quotations from the Re Inventing Liverpool Book that can be found easily on google.
"The alternative view of Dingle is the southern end of this sector, around the end of Park Road, which has been associated with a white, Protestant close- knit community with the reputation of being racist. Although Dingle is Liverpool 8, there is a racial boundary. The side of Dickens Street going down is predominantly white, going down from the part of Windsor Street reaching down to Cockburn Street.
It's interesting to see how gradually the Yemenis and Somalis have moved across the road having established their base in Granby and are now filtering into what has traditionally been the Dingle area. They haven't got much further than Admiral Street whcih is 2 streets away". I have studied the immigrant groups into Liverpool and the racism they experienced and
it's fair to say Black people have suffered the most. I believe this is down to the fact they came in far smaller numbers for every 1 Black immigrant that arrived there were 200 eastern European or Irish immigrants. Liverpool never had the need to manual labourers as we had huge Irish and eastern European populations. This meant very few Black people stayed in Liverpool and those who did struggled to survive.
Very few people know about the riots in Liverpool when thousands of Scandanvians and Irish immigrants rioted in Liverpool after a Black man attacked a white man in a bar. It was so serious that Black people has to be locked in jail for their own safety and 1 Black man was killed.
"The alternative view of Dingle is the southern end of this sector, around the end of Park Road, which has been associated with a white, Protestant close- knit community with the reputation of being racist. Although Dingle is Liverpool 8, there is a racial boundary. The side of Dickens Street going down is predominantly white, going down from the part of Windsor Street reaching down to Cockburn Street.
It's interesting to see how gradually the Yemenis and Somalis have moved across the road having established their base in Granby and are now filtering into what has traditionally been the Dingle area. They haven't got much further than Admiral Street whcih is 2 streets away". I have studied the immigrant groups into Liverpool and the racism they experienced and
it's fair to say Black people have suffered the most. I believe this is down to the fact they came in far smaller numbers for every 1 Black immigrant that arrived there were 200 eastern European or Irish immigrants. Liverpool never had the need to manual labourers as we had huge Irish and eastern European populations. This meant very few Black people stayed in Liverpool and those who did struggled to survive.
Very few people know about the riots in Liverpool when thousands of Scandanvians and Irish immigrants rioted in Liverpool after a Black man attacked a white man in a bar. It was so serious that Black people has to be locked in jail for their own safety and 1 Black man was killed.
He seems to want to gloss over it rather than answer the question, Jamie.
Chris: explain yourself please, and try stick the specific question we're asking here. I'm putting your other stuff on hold until you answer this one.
Thanks.
Chris: explain yourself please, and try stick the specific question we're asking here. I'm putting your other stuff on hold until you answer this one.
Thanks.
Liverpool has the longest-established black population in the country, dating back from the 1730's..
OR..as Chris Butler would have you believe..
"Liverpool has a tiny tiny black population, there are 2 Jamaican takeaways and a Somali shop, that sums it up really."
Can I nominate that particularly ignorant statement as 'Whopper of The Year' ??
OR..as Chris Butler would have you believe..
"Liverpool has a tiny tiny black population, there are 2 Jamaican takeaways and a Somali shop, that sums it up really."
Can I nominate that particularly ignorant statement as 'Whopper of The Year' ??
There's a notable lack of black/Chinese people inside Goodison Park I have noticed. We certainly don't reflect the demographics of the city of Liverpool - maybe this should be cause for concern and/or a good source of new supporters and/or a solution to the racism we may or may not have.
Well Michael I admit I made a mistake regarding the staments you higlighted. It was a typo or just a mistake. There are lots of Asians, eastern Europeans and middle eastern people that live outside of in the inner city. There isn't 1 person in Liverpool who hasn't had a fulll length coversation with any of the 3 groups mentioned above.
Kevin Hudson longest doesn't mean largest. I don't believe Liverpool has a particular problem with racism towards any of the 3 groups mentioned above. If you walked around the street on any day you'd see lots of Asian people around Liverpool.
When I said there is a sizable number of people in Liverpool that haven't spoken to a black person, I was really focusing on people over 40 in Liverpool, they tend to be the people at Liverpool and Everton matches that are involved in racist behaviour.
It's my opinion that racism towards black people is more prevalent in Liverpool due to Liverpool having a far smaller black population than cities like Manchester and Birmingham. No club officials at Everton have ever condoned racism or supported it so in my opinion it's a problem with the environment these fans are brought up in.
Would you get the unequivocal backing of Suarez by fans, local papers and local radio stations anywhere else in Britian? I'd say no, if Suarez had been playing at Manchester United, he would've been shown the door straight away.
Kevin Hudson longest doesn't mean largest. I don't believe Liverpool has a particular problem with racism towards any of the 3 groups mentioned above. If you walked around the street on any day you'd see lots of Asian people around Liverpool.
When I said there is a sizable number of people in Liverpool that haven't spoken to a black person, I was really focusing on people over 40 in Liverpool, they tend to be the people at Liverpool and Everton matches that are involved in racist behaviour.
It's my opinion that racism towards black people is more prevalent in Liverpool due to Liverpool having a far smaller black population than cities like Manchester and Birmingham. No club officials at Everton have ever condoned racism or supported it so in my opinion it's a problem with the environment these fans are brought up in.
Would you get the unequivocal backing of Suarez by fans, local papers and local radio stations anywhere else in Britian? I'd say no, if Suarez had been playing at Manchester United, he would've been shown the door straight away.
"I'll try again to add by the bit that has been lost so my comment makes sense".
Nope. Didn't work. Still makes about as much sense as a conversation between David Icke and fucking Pingu.
Nope. Didn't work. Still makes about as much sense as a conversation between David Icke and fucking Pingu.
Things have certainly changed since I going around 15 odd years ago. I could count how many black faces were Everton fans on one hand. One. Me. Although I've since read that there have been a few black people going to Everton - can remember seeing footage of FA Cup semi final at Highbury with a few black lads running on the pitch with Everton (I could be wrong).
I've been lucky and not heard a single racist thing been said among Everton fans, but I live in London and don't see Everton enough to find hear anything.
We used to have a rep and when I was younger a lot of people couldn't understand why I supported them because a) I'm from London and b) I'm black but now it's more because of a).
I've been lucky and not heard a single racist thing been said among Everton fans, but I live in London and don't see Everton enough to find hear anything.
We used to have a rep and when I was younger a lot of people couldn't understand why I supported them because a) I'm from London and b) I'm black but now it's more because of a).
@ Alex Kociuba,
I think that's a problem most inner city clubs face. Take Villa on Saturday for instance. Outside London, Birmingham has the largest ethnic population for a city, yet I seen very few Black or Asian people wearing Villas colours.
Now this is taken from Wikipedia I will admit, but is food for thought non the less. "Former Villa chief executive Richard Fitzgerald has stated that the ethnicity of the supporters is currently 98% white. When Randy Lerner's regime took over at Villa Park, they aimed to improve their support from ethnic minorities."
Shame really, because football should know no race boundaries.
I think that's a problem most inner city clubs face. Take Villa on Saturday for instance. Outside London, Birmingham has the largest ethnic population for a city, yet I seen very few Black or Asian people wearing Villas colours.
Now this is taken from Wikipedia I will admit, but is food for thought non the less. "Former Villa chief executive Richard Fitzgerald has stated that the ethnicity of the supporters is currently 98% white. When Randy Lerner's regime took over at Villa Park, they aimed to improve their support from ethnic minorities."
Shame really, because football should know no race boundaries.
Chris Butler,
My issue lies with your truncation of the contribution of black people in the city with the staggering line:
"..two Jamaican takeaways and a Somali shop, that sums it up really."
If you presume to educate, or wish to continue lecturing people about racism, I suggest you walk-back such a reductive affirmation first.
My issue lies with your truncation of the contribution of black people in the city with the staggering line:
"..two Jamaican takeaways and a Somali shop, that sums it up really."
If you presume to educate, or wish to continue lecturing people about racism, I suggest you walk-back such a reductive affirmation first.
Kevin Hudson I can only think of the 1 Jamican takeaway on Smithdown and another 1 on Lark Lane. Also Kevin there is now only 1 Somali shop on Granby street. Yes there is a West Indian community centre on the end of Mulgrave Street and the Somali centre on Lodge lane but again can you think of any other African orienteered businesses.
Kensington and Wavertree have numeruous shops that cater exclusively for Polish, Russian and Yugoslavian immigrants. I can think 6 at least. Not to mention all the other Polish businesses and markets that are designed to suit eastern european ex pats.
The same goes for middle eastern and asian ex pats. Compare that to Manchester where there are that cater to Jamaican ex pats in almost every area same with Birmingham.
Kensington and Wavertree have numeruous shops that cater exclusively for Polish, Russian and Yugoslavian immigrants. I can think 6 at least. Not to mention all the other Polish businesses and markets that are designed to suit eastern european ex pats.
The same goes for middle eastern and asian ex pats. Compare that to Manchester where there are that cater to Jamaican ex pats in almost every area same with Birmingham.
Chris, put that spade down, lad!!
Chris Butler, if you want to make sweeping remarks about demographics and/or perceptions within a city then I suggest you be prepared to back it up using statistical analysis. There is plenty of data out there. If there's nothing to support your opinion then perhaps it's not valid and should be reserved for the pub with the rest of the anecdotes.
Can I also suggest that the Editorial team remember that this post is about the minority of racist people attending Everton matches and that the argument has now moved away from, what was, a serious post.
Racist behaviour of any sort is disgusting and should be stamped out immediately. Given the recent events across the park, it might be an idea to contact the club and suggest a redoubling of efforts.
Can I also suggest that the Editorial team remember that this post is about the minority of racist people attending Everton matches and that the argument has now moved away from, what was, a serious post.
Racist behaviour of any sort is disgusting and should be stamped out immediately. Given the recent events across the park, it might be an idea to contact the club and suggest a redoubling of efforts.
If I call a player a lazy, German shit, which is the abusive word? "lazy" is a matter of opinion, "German" is factually true, "shit" is to me the insult. Instead of German install "scouse", "white" or "black" they may be factually true, but there are possible implications in their use.
I accept "scouse" from my friends in the area where I live but, if the term was used aggressively, it would become abusive and would be meant to be so. Obvious racism is in one sense easy to deal with, it's the nuances of meaning that makes this issue so difficult and complex.
To me, abuse of an opposing player's family is simply and always unacceptable.
I accept "scouse" from my friends in the area where I live but, if the term was used aggressively, it would become abusive and would be meant to be so. Obvious racism is in one sense easy to deal with, it's the nuances of meaning that makes this issue so difficult and complex.
To me, abuse of an opposing player's family is simply and always unacceptable.
The original sentiment of stopping rascist behaviour is highly commendable, but other abuse also needs to be addressed as well, especially that against the majority of us for being 'thieving scousers' etc.
Abuse cuts both ways... Also, what has the 'murderers' chants got to do with anything? It affects those we shout it at so much they call themselves 'murderers, eg: "One-nil to the murderers" or however many they score against us! And it's a chant which is borne out of their bad behaviour for which they failed to acknowledge or apologise for... So it is not abuse!!
Keep to the point and stop trying to score points against your own... Continue to complain to those in authority either home or away and eventually the morons will be weeded out!!
Abuse cuts both ways... Also, what has the 'murderers' chants got to do with anything? It affects those we shout it at so much they call themselves 'murderers, eg: "One-nil to the murderers" or however many they score against us! And it's a chant which is borne out of their bad behaviour for which they failed to acknowledge or apologise for... So it is not abuse!!
Keep to the point and stop trying to score points against your own... Continue to complain to those in authority either home or away and eventually the morons will be weeded out!!
I think that is shocking what you have reporterd Colin and needs to be stamped down on in this day and age. Modern Britian is diverse and stronger for it and there is no going back.
OK. So we have a racist problem again. Or maybe it's coming back again. So I'm suggesting that WE do something about it.
We are not just a small group of wacky fans. Well, maybe we are, but thanks to a small group of committed blues we have this incredible website where we can share our joys and otherwise.
We are Toffeeweb. We have clout as a group. I suggest Toffeeweb make an official plea to Everton Football Club to help stop this racist abuse. Be proactive. As proud Toffeewebers we could say we will be duty-bound to report seat numbers for any of these awful outbursts to the stewards in the expectation that there will be some action.
If there is no action taken then there should be a follow-up outcry from our great group. We should not just be a talking-shop but a movement for good in the world of football. OK, a bit high-minded, but you know what I mean.
We are not just a small group of wacky fans. Well, maybe we are, but thanks to a small group of committed blues we have this incredible website where we can share our joys and otherwise.
We are Toffeeweb. We have clout as a group. I suggest Toffeeweb make an official plea to Everton Football Club to help stop this racist abuse. Be proactive. As proud Toffeewebers we could say we will be duty-bound to report seat numbers for any of these awful outbursts to the stewards in the expectation that there will be some action.
If there is no action taken then there should be a follow-up outcry from our great group. We should not just be a talking-shop but a movement for good in the world of football. OK, a bit high-minded, but you know what I mean.
Suhahala has lived in Toxteth most of her life. She told the group ?I think racism is getting worse. When I go into the city centre I don?t see any black people working in the shops, or any black bus drivers, or any black people doing anything!? As her name suggest she is black, Richard Larnder.
What about all the African shops on Granby Street that now have gone? Famous social clubs the Sierra Leone, The Ibo, The Nigerian, The Yoruda and The Federation in Toxteth. They all have gone. The Jamaican music shops where White, Black and Asian youth would hang out all have closed.
I can't give you any offical numbers and even if I did I wouldn't feel I'd be able to trust them. For example many people in Liverpool that some white people would label black are mixed race. Somalis have black skin yet in college Somalis always ticked the other section of the form.
Anyway going back to the original topic, we have that offensive behaviour, which is a way for fans to report things to stewards and club officials.
At away games you'd have to get up go to a steward point the guy out who could be with his mates. It would be very hard to prove he's said anything, the steward getting paid £20 for his work would also be unwilling to risk his safety and would probably tell the police. Then both the accuser and the accused would have to be taken to an investigation room where they'd ask for witness statements. Rangers and Celtic have had this problem that it's almost impossible for the clubs to prove it.
The Dave Sibson case was a very straight forward case as he admitted saying it, the defendant may not do that in their case.
What about all the African shops on Granby Street that now have gone? Famous social clubs the Sierra Leone, The Ibo, The Nigerian, The Yoruda and The Federation in Toxteth. They all have gone. The Jamaican music shops where White, Black and Asian youth would hang out all have closed.
I can't give you any offical numbers and even if I did I wouldn't feel I'd be able to trust them. For example many people in Liverpool that some white people would label black are mixed race. Somalis have black skin yet in college Somalis always ticked the other section of the form.
Anyway going back to the original topic, we have that offensive behaviour, which is a way for fans to report things to stewards and club officials.
At away games you'd have to get up go to a steward point the guy out who could be with his mates. It would be very hard to prove he's said anything, the steward getting paid £20 for his work would also be unwilling to risk his safety and would probably tell the police. Then both the accuser and the accused would have to be taken to an investigation room where they'd ask for witness statements. Rangers and Celtic have had this problem that it's almost impossible for the clubs to prove it.
The Dave Sibson case was a very straight forward case as he admitted saying it, the defendant may not do that in their case.
Chris Butler, I've always had this burning question, and since you seem to be the utmost authority on all things racist then here it is.
Why is it that if I (beinghideously white, Greg Dyke, BBC) say the word 'nigger' then I'll be up before the beak quicker than Everton can score from a counter attack. But the the Black community can use this disgusting word with impunity?
Also you say, why haven't the black community any businesses to speak about? My question would be, name me a global business that comes from Africa i.e. Coca Cola, BMW, Mercedes. It just doesn't happen mate.
But am I racist for pointing this fact out?
In your Utopian Multiculture world do you think the Somali black-on-black knife crimes and shootings that are an everyday occurrence really make us indigenous people of our country warm to these people?
I must be racist then cos I don't want this filth on my streets. ANY PROBLEMS WITH THAT!
COYB......
Kev,162....Yes
Why is it that if I (beinghideously white, Greg Dyke, BBC) say the word 'nigger' then I'll be up before the beak quicker than Everton can score from a counter attack. But the the Black community can use this disgusting word with impunity?
Also you say, why haven't the black community any businesses to speak about? My question would be, name me a global business that comes from Africa i.e. Coca Cola, BMW, Mercedes. It just doesn't happen mate.
But am I racist for pointing this fact out?
In your Utopian Multiculture world do you think the Somali black-on-black knife crimes and shootings that are an everyday occurrence really make us indigenous people of our country warm to these people?
I must be racist then cos I don't want this filth on my streets. ANY PROBLEMS WITH THAT!
COYB......
Kev,162....Yes
Chris,
"For example many people in Liverpool that some white people would label black are mixed race."
You mean like Obama, the pres in the USA is known as the first "Black" President of America?
"For example many people in Liverpool that some white people would label black are mixed race."
You mean like Obama, the pres in the USA is known as the first "Black" President of America?
Jon Cox I don't believe anybody is an expert of racism. I believe it's just in mans nature to hate people. In Liverpool white youths from different areas feud despite the fact they have no logical reason to hate each other. A innocent young Evertonian Rhys Jones lost his life due 1 of these senseless geographical. Racism will never stop as like you say nowadays black people kill black people in senseless acts of voice. People have been fighting for 6000 years over pathetic things it's never going to change. You can punish them it's still doesn't stop the problem.
Jon Cox
Whether there are any global African businesses or not is irrelevant to the original point:
It is not acceptable for the club and its supporters to tolerate 'Hitler chants, nigger shouts, monkey noises oh and gas chamber noises...'
Or is this too politically correct for you?
Whether there are any global African businesses or not is irrelevant to the original point:
It is not acceptable for the club and its supporters to tolerate 'Hitler chants, nigger shouts, monkey noises oh and gas chamber noises...'
Or is this too politically correct for you?
Paul Thompson, absolutely correct. It's disgusting. I will so though, (Chris) that it is my experience that racism is not as much of an issue in Liverpool as it is in other major UK cities which I have lived in (with the exception of Newcastle, which I have found similar - I found it odd that you identified these two places as that is the opposite of my experience. For info I am from Liverpool and have lived in Newcastle for the last 5 years. Moving back to Liverpool gradually, now. Have also lived in North West London, Birmingham and Leeds and also worked in Manchester.
Jon Cox 337:
"Also you say, why haven't the black community any businesses to speak about? My question would be, name me a global business that comes from Africa i.e. Coca Cola, BMW, Mercedes. It jus doesn't happen mate"
Jon, the wealth of the west and in particular Britain was built on the exploitation of Africa, it still goes on today, perhaps that's why no global businesses come from Africa? the fact is quite a few do, it just that they are generally not owned by Africans.
"Also you say, why haven't the black community any businesses to speak about? My question would be, name me a global business that comes from Africa i.e. Coca Cola, BMW, Mercedes. It jus doesn't happen mate"
Jon, the wealth of the west and in particular Britain was built on the exploitation of Africa, it still goes on today, perhaps that's why no global businesses come from Africa? the fact is quite a few do, it just that they are generally not owned by Africans.
Hmm, I think this thread has lost its way... and what gets my goat the most is post 395 who if I'm not mistaken wants Britain to apologise for its Empire, but forgetting that most of Europe's nations also had empires around about the same time!!..
Anyway, I want reparations from the Romans, the Vikings, the French and every other country which has invaded this septic isle!! And from every Manc, Cockney, Geordie, Brummie for calling me a thieving Scouse twat!!
Mr Kenrick, if that isn't enough to finish the thread i don't know what is!!
Anyway, I want reparations from the Romans, the Vikings, the French and every other country which has invaded this septic isle!! And from every Manc, Cockney, Geordie, Brummie for calling me a thieving Scouse twat!!
Mr Kenrick, if that isn't enough to finish the thread i don't know what is!!
Interesting that it's Martin Luther King Day here in the USA. He may be turning our attention to these issues right now.
He had a dream, you know.
He had a dream, you know.
And on that note...
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025 Posted 12/01/2012 at 17:04:51
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