No, It's not Davy's fault our 1 point something forward cum midfielder are 10 yds off the oppositions back line.

It's not Davy's fault that Neville is picked at all, nevermind in midfield.

It's not Davy's fault that we have 11 in our own box for corners.

It's not Davy's fault that at home we treat QPR, Wigan, Stoke, Bolton, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all like Barca.

No of course it isn't

It's because everyone has more money than us and if you kick off at 3.00pm or whenever, it's nil-nil and you get one point for that. Which gives you 38Pts...THEN...All you have to do is keep it tight and pinch one and before you know it, you've got the magic 40Pts and everythings Cushti. A few other keep it tight and pinch one's and you moves up a place ( or two ). @ 600K per place you know it makes sense Rodders...He who dares Rodders, He who dares??? er er ?? might lose.

Chris and Derek, you are both right. We are the worst team to watch in the Prem. That's why we are last on MotD every week and why descriptions like "hard to beat" go hand in hand with Moyes's Everton. How fans go out of their way to watch it, week-in, week-out, baffles me. Go and watch Sunday park football and save yourselves loads of money is my advice.

This mentality of Moyes's is the reason why he has never won anything and why he will never get a bigger job than Everton.

Is this a trick question?

Tommy #107

if everyone followed your lead wed all be posting without ever having a good word to say about our club.

and if we followed your advice, you wouldnt have a club to moan about.

I note Everton's passing accuracy is 76.8% as revealed here on Talksport's website:

http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/2012-01-17/leagues-best-passing-team-revealed-arsenal-chelsea-swansea-man-united-man-city-spurs-or-liverpool?p=9

That means 1 in 4 passes goes astray. From this you can work out our pattern of play:

1st pass Howard -> Fullback
2nd pass Fullback -> Fellaini
3rd pass Fellaini -> Centre-half
4th pass Centre-half HOOOOOOOOOOOF!

It's very easy to have good passing accuracy if all you're doing is tapping it around your defence and defensive midfielder when you're under no pressure from the opposition.

We are absolutely woeful at the moment as a spectacle. There hasn't been one rousing performance all season even in games we've won. It will be a happy day when the Kenwright-Moyes double act leave town.

Tommy, Moyes won a title with Preston. Just saying like...

The whole Moyes debate is somewhat along the lines of 'never mind the quality, feel the width'.There are those who feel Moyes results vindicate his methods & style of play, however, I think that view is less prevalent now than it was a few years ago. Nonetheless, whilst Moyes is willing to fulfill his contract & the Board are content with his performance there's no prospect of any change. The hopes I had when he first arrived that Moyes might prove to be a great manager have long since evaporated.

LOL guys, anyone watch Stoke? (highest possession figure in the premier league at home was 49% against Blackburn) Or Villa! or West Brom? I swear the majority of those on toffeeweb only ever watch Everton play.

And I think most football fans will agree we have played good football under Moyes. Unsuprisingly this happened at a time when we had enough money to compete and were able to invest in and keep good attacking and creative players. Many, as on this thread, dismiss the monetary effect, yet seemingly ignore the clear correlation between successful good football and money, and the decline of Goodison football (which was pretty shite when Moyes took over no?) with the decline of funds.

Dave, this is one of the best posts I've read for a while on here. I agree with everything you say.

Don't get me wrong, when we came 4th, none of us were complaining, it's just the past couple of years we have completely stagnated and right now I do not see where this team is heading...

We should just play like Barcelona every week! Why doesn't moyes tell the lads to pass it around, keep posession and score hat loads of goals. Surely it's that simple! Some people....

The sheer awfulness of the system that we play is down to the manager. Even the Moyes lovers can't deny that... It's an outdated, ineffective, stale and negative system that will be our downfall

"And I think most football fans will agree we have played good football under Moyes."

Oh we have, yes.
For 20 minutes at home v Villa we looked good....

End.

Scott, say what you want about moyes but his style of play has certainly not been ineffective.

We have consistently finished higher in the league than teams with similar resources. Granted its not always been pretty but beggars can't be choosers.

Derek Thomas, so right, the next time we have an attack with drenthe or whoever bombing forward down the wing just take a look at where our forwards and fellow midfielders will be, just drifting past the halfway line whilst the wide man shall just be throwing over a cross, I see this every game and it is down to Moyes and his deep line and don't even mention everyone back at a corner, we even did this against Tamworth and guess what, Tamworth left a man up, you tell me what us Leon Osman ,Royston Drenthe or Donovan are in our own box if they are not stuck on the goal line?

Sam, with respect,
surely Fellaini, Bilya, Rodwell, Baines, Saha, Cahill, Jagielka, Distin, Heitinga, Osman, even Neville, etc, are more than capable of passing and moving much better than they have been doing this season?
They may not be Lionel Messi but they are NOT crap players, are they?

That's the problem Jim, many are only in authority in all things Everton.

they don't watch the other games because you hardly have two boring teams on, there is always a better side on a Sky match so the game seems more interesting.

I huarrantee you, if you watched a Wigan v Stoke game, you would swear that you have discovered the cure from insomnia.

Moyes has played good football, even Merse was creaming himself over Pienaar and calling us Arsenal light....the problem, as always, was that we were playing lovely tippy tapp football but having absolutely no outcome at the end.

It's gotten worse now because Pienaar and Arteta have gone and we have no flair left in the side,

Yes it's down to Moyes, but it's also down to the players and it is deffinitely down to the board for not getting replacements for our more skilfull players

Sam, I think we have kind of finished in line with what the squad has cost us. We should never be finishing in the bottom half of the table... Ever. Your Barcelona jibe is a nonsense really. Wigan play possession football with a side far and away poorer than ours, yet they do it. Swansea City play possession football, again with a side not as good as ours. Neither of these sides by the way cost anything like what our side cost. Yet in spite of this they can play a system of football in which possession and movement is key. Just because they don't do it as well as Barcelona or Spain doesn't mean that it can't be done. It's not about how good players are. They're professional footballers in the top tier of English football. It is about the system employed. Moyes chooses to employ a system in which having a shot on target is at times a rarity! As a result we can't break down piss poor sides at home! Let alone away from home.

The "no money" thing is bullshit of the highest order!! Fellaini cost more than the whole Swansea team!! Swansea are a fantastic team to watch. I'd pay top dollar to watch the them play. Thank god for people of this world like Martinez & Rodgers who believe that technique can be taught with average players.

On paper you wouldn't swap any of the first team players of Swansea for Everton! Yes, Moyes and Everton will finish higher than Swansea but in the token he will kill my passion to watch a team that I dearly love.

For me, our problem is that no-one breaks forward from midfield, they are all on a tight leash. It's no surprise we play better football when we go a goal down because you see the players think, "Oh, fuck it ? let's try and score."

Moyes is no better than Big Sam.

Tony, I've watched a few Wigan games actually on sky and they've been enjoyable to watch. They try and keep it on the deck and are so woeful at the back it's untrue and makes exciting viewing at times.

Swansea are probably best example of playing football and they also have a striker who I enjoy watching, makes great runs and seems like a good finisher.

I think the article is about our brand of football as opposed to whether or not we are crap as a team. Unfortuantely, we're both at the moment. Spurs at home and Chelsea at home were last times I saw us play how I would like - icing on cake was winning those games too. We are extremely boring now and a terrible terrible team

Chris,

Whatever cosmetic gripe you have about Moyes's tactics, he has out-thought over 50% of his peers in the Premier League... for a decade.

Therefore, when you describe his tactics as "absurd,"" I find that line illogical.

Moyes has to cut his cloth accordingly; When circumstances have allowed, we have played plenty of decent stuff, but I concede, the recent deployment of Neville & Heitinga in midfield isn't designed with aesthetics in mind, more a case of needs must.

We have a squad made up of older experienced yet slow players and some good quicker younger players.

However, Moyes will not break out from the blinkered obstinate strategy he uses by being more adventurous and playing the younger players. The mediocre football we are serving up every week is a direct result of Moyes's doctrine.

We have seen Cahill and Saha decline along with the the same old sideways passers like Osman, Fellaini and Neville.

We got rid of the pace that Beckford had and the craft of Arteta and that's why we are what we are now-a slow predictable team that anyone can get results against and very often do. I would like to see more of Barkley, Rodwell and Donovan together with Vellios up front.

What has Moyes got to lose except paying customers... and be sure ? this will reflect in season ticket sales for next season.

Come on the Football's bad at the moment but it hasn't been for the whole of Moyes' reign. Does anyoen not remember the atrocity of the Football in the mid to late 90s? Compare that to the team of Arteta, Pienaar, Baines, Osman and Lescott when people were branding us as Arsenal - lite. MOyes doesn't have the players of that quality anymore so the football has got worse.

Scott Campbell if you do the maths we are 13th (financially) that's wages + transfer fees over both 5 and 8 years. That puts us ~ on par with Bolton. I posted a breakdown several weeks ago. In a financial respect, consistent top half finished are a 'relative' success.

Just a point about Swansea, the do look confident going forward but as soon as they get put under any pressure they crumble like no team I've ever seen in the premier league, before. Not they key to success, I'm afraid. If we did have a team who were both superb going forward and solid at the back I'd be made up (and our chairman would be from Russia or Abu Dhabi).

Nick Entwistle ? Division 2 title ! All is forgiven, Moyes is great. :)

Dave Wilson ? Don't be like that, you know I'm exaggerating. You go a lot of the games right? Surely you think the players we have are capable of better football? And don't you think Moyes really emphasises and instructs all his players to think about defence first, attack second? How many teams in history have had success with this style of play?

The same questions go to Sam Hoare, are you entertained watching us? Do you think Moyes will get a bigger job than Everton?

You know, I'd love Moyes to think "Fuck this, I won't be here much longer, I'm going to go for it and believe we can win every game". Maybe then we'd beat one of "the big 4" away from home. But, it's been 10 years, and I just can't see him changing.

School of Science and all, Football is an entertainment game. Think of how many great goals we've scored over the years or been in fantastic edge of the seat games, it's only a handful and I think Everton FC fans deserve better.

Sean McKenna - That is a perfect example of what you can do with average players. It's all in the mentality.

Sam #128

Credit where credit is due, his football has been effective to a point in the league. I have been proud of our recent finishes. However doesn't negate the fact that it is awful to watch. I

Although Moyes tactics and style of play have been far from effective in Europe. Infact it's been quite embarrising at times & he has looked like a rabbit in the headlights. But suppose that's a different kettle of fish???

Sean, would you want us to play like Wigan if we were last in the premiership? I wouldn't.

Yes Swansea play great football but they've only been in the prem for 2 minutes. Teams like blackpool and reading have done similarly and then faded. Moyes keeps it basic and keeps us higher in the points table than we are in the money table.

Sam, Why are you bringing Wigan into it?

I'm sure if Moyes had Everton play like Wigan, you'd well defend it.

Tommy 'Maybe then we'd beat one of "the big 4" away from home'

Not entirely sure who the 'big four' are any more. But didn't we beat Liverpool, Man City, Spurs and Chelsea away from home just last season?

"But didn't we beat Liverpool, Man City, Spurs and Chelsea away from home just last season?"

No

Lol just to answer my own question ... No! Don't get to many away games and I have a bit of dementia setting in, my bad :-)

Ooo the footballing fallacy on this thread.

Firstly... Wigan? Sean and supporters, have you gone bonkers? You want us to play like Wigan? They are even more impotent than us.

Until a recent improvement (strangely against the big teams), they've been extremely boring to watch. It seems on here that someone has watched them play the ball around against Chelski, and got all excited, struggling under the misconception that they play good football. (They try to play good football, with sporadic success, but look like a poor man's Arsenal's youth team, who mainly frustrate and occasionally entertain.)

Swansea keep getting thrown around in these discussions. Incredible job that Rogers has done, quite amazing in fact. But It's January. Hull and Reading looked good in January once. Now where are they? Do you think it is fair to assess a team's successful football based on half a season?

Who wins the Premier League? The teams with money. Who wins the Euros, World Cups and Champions Leagues? The best teams. Apart from when Greece won in the Euros playing some of the most defensive and ugly football the world had seen. Would they have won playing attacking? Of course not. When Porto won the Champions League, was it through attacking brilliance or tactical and efficient defence? It was with defensive ability and good counter-attacking (see Mourinho's Milan too).

Good football is the domain of the best teams. The Premier League has proved that often the entertainers of those outside the top 6 (the likes of Blackpool, West Brom, Reading) suffer. Look at Bolton: surviving for so long with ugly football which was much maligned. A new manager comes in, buys attacking players, makes them look pretty... and now they look like they will be relegated. Wigan too may well head that way.

We DID play good football a few seasons back. To suggest otherwise is to spew idiocy. Now we can't, because we have had to sell attacking players. Now we get success from the back. Our defence is bettered only by the top teams. Moyes's foundation is in defence; if he had money, he would buy attacking players and we would all be treated to a better spectacle. For evidence of this see our recent signings: Drenthe (Extremely attacking), Denis (Striker), Donovan (Attacking), Gibson (A footballer).

A dichotomy exists with regard to the perception of Everton. The pundits, the writers, praise Moyes as a genius, who performs miracles in keeping us in the league. The Everton fans see him as someone who holds us down, who we could improve on.

The pundits do not watch us every week. They do not suffer the often horrible spectacle. But they do watch other teams. They do realise that every window, we are the bottom or very close to the bottom, in terms of spending. They do watch our creative and very best players go out a door, and no one come back through.

Moyes could set us out to play attacking; that cannot be in doubt. But what is very much in doubt, is whether we would have as many points. Our weakness is clearly up front; our strength at the back. We have no strikers relative in quality to Howard, Baines, Jags or Distin. Saha at present would struggle in the Championship. Vellios maybe can be decent but he is very young. Denis is? well, the Championship may be too good for him. We are shit up front. To attack therefore, would be pointless. It would be to play to our weaknesses. We don?t even have the strikers of Blackburn and Bolton.

One last thing: watch Swansea for the next five games. They will frustrate you in a similar way to us. They keep the ball superbly, but have suffered from the very thing the original post highlighted: a failure with the final ball. They were majestic against Arsenal, but Arsenal suit them perfectly. They don?t play like they did against Arsenal every game. They too frustrate, and have looked the most impotent of the sides that have played at Goodison this season. Their test hasn?t come yet. When they lose 4/5 games on the bounce, let?s see how often they are brought into the threads of ToffeeWeb as the footballing archetypes of the Premier League.

This has also been very reactionary from you lot. Look at the last 10 seasons of the Premier League ? not the first six months of this. Boring football is often the best way for mediocre teams to survive. Guess what? we are very mediocre. Not because of Moyes, but because of money. Because we have had to sell, had to watch the good players grow older and sour (Cahill/Saha) and can?t bring in replacements or suitable competition.

Several people on this thread have dismissed money as a factor. Stupidly dismissed money as a factor at that. Someone please give me evidence that we weren?t playing the best football of Moyes tenure when we had some money and a good squad. When we went and outplayed City and Pienaar looked like he should have been playing for Arsenal. Now he sits on the bench at Spurs and he was our most impressive attacking player. That is the reality. Our best attacking player (maybe second best) at our former rivals.

And even when we had money, it was far less than Spurs, Liverpool etc etc. Than the teams we would finish next to, or above. We never had much, but the shithole of a manager, who can?t buy and has no tactical awareness, turned us from relegation to a steady European team on a shoestring, who DID entertain for a period. But then the bank knocked on the door.

Moyes isn?t an attacking manager, I won?t claim that. I won?t claim that I am pleased with many of our performances this season. But I will claim that he is a victim of circumstance. And I will claim that we would not be higher up that league table, if he decided to play 4-4-2 or Martinez was in charge.

And we did beat City away last season? They are in the top four and finished in the top four didnt they last season? or have I got it all wrong?

Jim, great post. Bit of realism amongst all the moaning old gits is what this site needs. Agree with all you say.

Jim, that doesn't suit the statisic well, so it is overlooked.

Also the Cup defeat of Chelsea doesn't count because it wasn't in normal time

Jim Knightley

I struggle to get through long winded stuff, particularly the pro Moyes guff but hats off mate, pissed myself at this in your post:

"For evidence of this, see our recent signings: Drenthe (Extremely attacking), Denis (Striker), Donovan (Attacking), Gibson (A footballer)."

Poor Gibson ? talk about damned by faint praise! There's been some crackers stoutly defending Moyes but this is a fucking gem.

Well, Swansea must have had an off-game against us because they looked like shit to me. We should have won by 2-3 goals. No predator remains our problem on the pitch, none other.

Regarding Moyes, perhaps he should take a lesson from that Damn-the-Torpedos, attack-minded genius Mourinho and his "entertaining" style.

No?

Then perhaps Wenger and his continental flair, flowing "entertaining" style. Second thought, perhaps not. After all, since Bergkamp got old and Henry was dumped in his prime for cash exactly how much more silverware has Arsenal garnered than Everton?

We're in a down period right now. That fact one of the few agreed on in here. It's because we have an ownership problem, not a Moyes one. There's no such thing as lousy ownership yet great sides on the pitch. It doesn't happen.

Let's hope Moyes can keep us up this season (as fucked-up as it is to have to put it that way) and next starts with a new ownership group in place. Then let's talk about Moyes.

COYB

Some of use have missed the point, it's the philosophy of these managers that I wish moyes would take up, which happens to be entertaining by the way! The thing that annoyed me was we were playing really good football at the start of last season battering villa away from home 67 percent of the ball but couldn't score, so moyes went back to what he knew best HOOF!! His statement after that match was we need to go back to our old ways of getting the ball forward.

The teams that play the best football more often wins simple as, The most annoying thing is seeing teams like Swansea Wigan is that everyone is so comfortable on the ball- from goal keeper till striker, now look at Everton, hibbo shites himself jags hoof distin bamby on ice Cahill etc etc, it's all about coaching giving the players belief to play that way, and the thing is every evertonian knows we have the players to do it... Frustrated blue :-(

Jim #227. I never said I wanted us to play like Wigan. Seems to me your twisting things to suit your agenda?

As far as I can see it no one here has said they would prefer us to play like Wigan.

mad how quickly a thread peters out when the actual facts are presented well....
like it when people stand up to the playground bully...
post of the year thus far that lad...
well in Jim...

James # 251, You state exactly my sentiments about keeping it all together for one more season then hopefully starting next year with new owners in place. What with Blue Bill beavering away 24/7 It could happen.
Like most evertonians I am a born optimist but I don't think I could stand too much more of Davy's negative battles for survival.

Dick - hated saying it, but we have to hang in there. Ugh. I still expect us to win every game and look for these last 17 games to move up the Table. But our financial reality is very real.

Fingers crossed this window closes with us retaining everyone (except Bily).

The mind boggles that people are back to blaming Moyes again for our woes. Take a look at the reality, and tell me he's been well backed
http://peoplesgroup.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/the_blue_union_update_01.pdf

James Flynn #251 - absolutely spot on. Well said that man

Sean (265) - "The teams that play the best football more often wins simple as".

Is that so genius? Just play better than the other team. So, no connection between playing the best and having money to sign the best talent? Who knew?

James #351, if it's all about money and not the manager, his tactics, coaching and style of play, then you won't mind Moyes fucking off then.

You don't know what you're talking about, Sean's not a genius, he just understands football, sorry soccer!

So why won't Swansea win the league this year then?

They are widely viewed as playing great football.....why aren't they top of the league with a 100% win ratio?

Tony, they are playing great football, much much better than us, their sum is greater than the constituent parts, brought on by good coaching, tactics and philosophy, no one claimed they would win the league. Everton on the other hand have far greater resources, much better individual players and yet play absolutely shite, dour and dull football. The sum is considerably less than the constituent parts.

Come on Einstein, why is that?

Tommy Coleman #181

TBH No I dont,

I accept your point that we could be more adventurous, of course I do, but will it improve us ?

Hibbert, Jagielka, Coleman, Cahill, Neville etc, all know how to grind and claw their way to the top of the 2nd tier of the Premiership, they've made a living out of doing precisely that. The best of the rest . . but anybody who thinks that by telling them to play further up the park, they will develop silky skills, or suddenly start to see the pass they've been blind to thus far in their careers is fooling himself.

The ball players and footballers have gone Tommy lad, the mixture is destroyed. Moyes came close but the cigar looks like eluding him.


I believe the board are responsible for this, I also believe every time somebody blames the manager they exonerate the chairman.

Anyone who thinks Swansea or Wigan are playing wonderful football must be watching on the radio.

They may please the MOTD pundits passing around their own half against a couldnt be arsed Arsenal, but those of us who have actually seen them know better dont we ? its garbage. defensive garbage, football without purpose. in fact if you take Jagielka out of our team they are identical to us. . . except we score more concede less and err finish higher.

Has anybody ever seen a team defend with eleven in their own box as much as Swansea at GP ? . .IN OPEN OPLAY ?

Those of you who are hooked will have no trouble at all getting tickets to see them. Those of us who have seen them know why.

Hang on Dave, these are the same MOTD pundits who are continuously telling us Moyes is a fantastic manager and working miracles isn't it? You know, the ones you keep referring to "That know everything", you can't have it both ways, sorry, I know from past "debates" with you that you have no problem being selective.

So Arsenal got beat because they could't be arsed! I'm sure you'd be saying that if we beat them.

And we finish higher than them do we, coul do sworn they've just got promoted.

Moyes didn't come close, we've payed shite for years, and when we played any team that could actually play football, like in Europe, they battered and humiliated us, you're as much a fantasist as Kenwright, how you're not laughed out of the pub I'll never know.

Robbie, I'm sure I remember us turning over Fiorentina at Goodison back when they were reagrded as a very good continental side. That was also the year tat we beat Zenit as well wasn't it and broke AZ Alkmaar's prestigious home record with our B team. We gave a good account of ourselves against Villareal and should have got more out of that and we were battering Sporting Lisbon before Rodwell and Distin had aneurysms. The only times we were badly beaten was the tie against Benfica and the return leg in Lisbon (bad performances, but both made worse by injuries).

Plus we haven't played badly for years, that is pure fantasy, a few years back we had a team largely reagrded on here as the best since the mid 80s with a midfield that was only criticised for over-passing.

James, I went to Fiorentina away, typical dire negative shite against a woeful Fiorentina, they had a geriatric Christian Vieri up front and still battered us. I went to Nurnberg away too, same dire shite against a team that was relegated, 2 late goals and a fantastic trip with fellow blues doesn't change the fact we were crap, and that was 5 years ago!

We broke AZ Alkmaar's prestigious record, wupdeedoo, AZ fuckin Alkmaar.

I remember the Fiorentina home game too, watching my son cry because yet again Moyes had let us down and we were out, thanks to his shite dour defensive tactics in the first leg........ I can talk about it now.

Robbie

I watch football first lad(sky). Last time I saw Match of the Day, Jimmy Hill was presenting it. You have never heard me referring to their pundits about Moyes ? that's just another deperate attempt from you to make things up ? I don't even know who they are.

People are quite tolerant where I drink, to get laughed out of the place you`d have to come up with stuff like ? "kenwright sold everything to back his manager" OR "getting promoted from the championship = a higher finish than top half of Prem... but then who on earth would be that dumb?

Just off there now as it happens...

Are you kidding Robbie? A woeful Fiorentina? Frey in goal Pazzini upfront along with Vieri (who'd still probably get in our forwards line up) and a midfield containing the likes of Santana and Gamberini. They were a very good Italian side who we equally matched and home advantage counted over the two legs. How is it Moyes fault that his players lost a penalty shoot out?

Yes Nuremburg wasn't pretty, but this was one of our first runs in Europe for ages and that was a classic away perfromace the likes of which you see Man U and Chelsea pull off all the time. Do people on here really expect us to go away to these grounds with no European experience and wipe the floor with people? It doesn't happen that way, Man U messed up in Basle, Liverpool toiled against debrecen, Arsenal have been beaten by just about everyone at some point.

As for Alkmaar they're probably as patronising about us as you are about them, what makes us (to the neutral observer) any better than them?