It looks to me that the more Moyes is criticised the more he gives '2 fingers' to the fans. We are the most boring team to watch. I can predict every move the players are going to make. Across the bcak four and generally bcak to Howard who then hoofs the ball up the park. And when we have a throw in we might as well give the ball straight to the opposition.

We are so so predictable but Moyes cannot or will not admit his tactics are all wrong.

Till he goes, the same road will be treaded and lead to relegation. Very Sad and Kenwright just sits and claims to the the Number 1 Blues fan. The pair are a just a JOKE

It's pretty much the same tactics he used when we were playing well too.

We sold our best players and what do you know? The skill level drops, we have become a boring, uninterested side with no spark to move us above the rest of the boring teams in the league.

It's Moyes fault for tactics, the players fault for not doing their jobs properly and it's the boards fault for selling off our team.

Differing tactics are hard to come by when the playing staff are limited.

I don't like the supposition that 'Moyes supporters' give this net-spend argument as the be all and end all of the teams poor season.

It certainly has contributed to the decline in a team challenging for champions league a few seasons ago to a team where Europa places would have been an achievement.

The team aren't performing, and no 'Moyes supporter' feels the guy is flawless and know he should be doing better.

Where as the inability to compete in the transfer market for fresh impetus and replenishment - key to any manager - for two seasons is casually dismissed by those who want him out, those who do support him recognise that this season isn't one of his best.

What's the phrase? Form is temporary, class is permanent. There are a number of reasons for the shite state of affairs we're in, Moyes is not blameless, but to do away with him is laughable. And yet people are calling for Paul Lambert!

If finances are as bad as we fear and that the summer will see quality replaced by freebies and loan punts, relegation the fear with the quality at the club, Moyes is still the man as he's proved his ability season after season... accept this one so far.

Its one thing to say its Moyes' squad etc, but 1, he's had his best players leave, and 2, not been able to buy players to add to this quality which any right thinking chairman of Everton football club should rightfully deliver. But we've got a muppet in charge of our finances. No other club in the Prem are downsizing and to give Moyes the shove would be the biggest loss of all.

One thing people neglect to realize or refuse to accept when saying Moyes should have done better offloading the deadwood is that this is assuming that those funds would be used to bring in replacements. In the past couple of years it is quite apparent that any money generated would go to banks to pay off debts. So Moyes is stuck, having to keep players that 5 years ago he very well may have sold in order to bring in new players, as indeed this was what he did routinely with Beattie and AJ etc.

If he was to have sold Cahill and Saha, lets say last year, that money would have went to the bank. Then Moyes is left with an even more threadbare squad. And do not come on here saying you knew that Cahill would suddenly go 13 months without scoring a goal. Some decline was seen, absolutely, but nobody can honestly say they saw that goal drought coming.

This doesn't fully excuse the terrible football we've been playing recently. But I think it's fairly obvious that this is why Moyes has had to stop selling some of these players that in the past would have been let go.

Well said Anthony, when you see some of the loan signings other clubs bring in, it shows he isn't even doing his homework properly there. If he had any willingness to try to freshen up the squad, I believe it would not be impossible. Sell, for whatever be can get for them, the following: Mucha, Neville, Bily (fingers crossed), McFadden, Saha, Cahill, Anichebe, Silva, Yobo, maybe Hibbert too, and release Strac, And then make a few realistic additions- hungry players like Jordan Rhodes, and either Steve Fletcher or Steve Morison to partner him; a utility defender like Onohua, a creative midfielder from abroad such as this Adrien Silva guy. Compliment it with the few loans we are accustomed to; Cerci, Kalou, etc. Its not rocket science, but David Moyes has waved the white flag and spends his whole time moaning when instead he should be earning his wages and be looking at creative ways to overhaul the squad.

The problem with the deadwood issue is also, they are called deadwood for a reason, they are not that good and no-one will offer good money for them.

Jags aside, we have not had any decent offers for our deadwood...I still don't believe the £6m for Saha rumour doing the rounds.

No-one wants Cahill, Saha, Neville (apart from a piss taking Arry) Hibbert, Osman so how are we to offload them?

"Mucha, Neville, Bily (fingers crossed), McFadden, Saha, Cahill, Anichebe, Silva, Yobo, maybe Hibbert too, and release Strac"

How much for the lot of them? Just enough to cover the loan deal probably, so 10 out and 1 maybe 2 in. This with the smallest squad we have ever had (in Premier League terms)

I think you're right Errol. I'd reboot and start again at this point, or perhaps get one of my mates to take the managers job at Man City and buy James McFadden for £50m or in a swap deal for Silva and Aguerro. Prob worth backinh up first though, so if it goes tits up I could just go back and try something a bit different!

I know what I suggested may seem like it could only be done in the world of Fantasy Manager, and I do realise that we'd get bugger all for the lot of them, but what I'm getting at essentially is that Moyes deoesn't seem to be trying to freshen up his squad like he used to, and bring in young players with a point to prove who would fight for the shirt much more than the current bunch. Ten out couldn't happen in one transfer window, but if we did get rid of the deadwood, bring in 4 or 5 to add to the likes of McAleny, Gueye, Hope, Baxter, Lundstram, Duffy etc., the numbers would be there squad wise. The quality of the youngsters is yet to be proven but we need to try something different, and that's where Moyes is failing

It's just time for a change of manager.

We were dire last season but the RS were in turmoil and the trigger point relegation fight eventually evaporated so on Moyes went.

When 2 of our 3 footballing players left to go and play football the folly of 10 years failure getting enough creativity in the squad come home to roost.

The trigger point relegation battle is around the corner, the usual suspects playing silly buggers defending Moyes are vanishing lets hope Moyes follows soon.

Tony J, sad as it may be the normal outcome for players fucking up is the removal of the coach. Players make mistakes;Howard fucked up on Saturday,Saha does most weeks. If the players were held properly to account then no manager would ever get fired because I'm pretty certain that even Martinez doesn't send out his defenders to be as bad as they are.
Everton are poor, the players are under performing, they cannot be replaced. The chairman is a disgrace, he won't go. So what's left? Only one viable alternative.

I just love the way people seem to think that any decent player would want to come to play for us, considering the posts on toffeeweb always tell of the lack of tactics etc......

Nick Entwistle ? what a crock of shit you talk. The reason players are leaving is because Moyes's tactics are so boring. Tell me why he left 3 fit strikers on the bench last season away to West Ham who were shite and bottom of the league. He stifles all flair out of players ? that's why they can't wait to get away. And that's why he needs to go. Our young up-and-coming players will never get a proper run in the team whilst he is manager. I for one say Moyes Out.

"It looks to me that the more Moyes is criticised the more he gives 2 fingers to the fans "

I think you`re probably right there Frank, but dont you think thats down to the level of criticism. Some of its pathetic ?
Look at this OP.

Regardles of whether these players were purchased on the cheap (more down to scouting than Moyes himself) . .truely staggering,
When Moyes has signed players on the cheap he has usually been the only one to take a punt on them, even though everyone else knew about them.


And whats all this about "the composition of the squad by Moyes` own admission is down to him"
so he didnt want all those better player in the top teams then, this is his first choice squad ?
why would Moyes - or anybody else -take it seriously.

There are too many closet Kenwright supporterrs trying desperately hard to distance him from our current plight on the pitch.

When Bily goes we will have RAISED well over over 20m quid in transfers during the last 2.5 years. Our wage bill will have been reduced by roughly the same amount.

What Fucken net spend ? ? ? whats happening to the sky millions ?

Does Moyes really have to start using jumpers for goalposts before the penny drops.

Anthony, Moyes wanted Demba Ba (free transfer) - but we couldnt afford his £50k a week. Newcastle could and theyre flying.

You spend (both in fees and wages) like a Championship club and guess what? That's where you end up.

We only offered Fellaini £70k a week so we can sell him this summer for £15-20M. Elstone knows full well that we wont be paying that contract for long.

Yes Moyes' tactics do him no favours with some of the results we've had. But looking at our squad and the level of transfers we now look to bring in, 9-10th best is probably the best we can hope for.

Leeds United spent massively and imploded. We're just a few years away from that but without the precursory massive splurge. Instead EFC has been raped with a non-existant business model and an abysmal board.

Errol, do you follow football outside of Everton, Huddersfield have already turned down a £5m offer for Rhodes, so even if you sold every songle player on your list, once the bank have had their cut we couldn't afford him.

Who says Moyes hasn't tried to get in loan players. Maybe the board wouldn't sanction the level of wages that the parent club wanted us to pay. Maybe the parent club wanted a fee.

As for getting in young hungry players with a point to prove, why would they come to a club where the board will only bring in players after they sell the clubs top performers. Finally as for Moyes controlling all sales and purchasing, he said this after the Lescott sale and before the banks insisted we reduced our overdraft and wage bill. If you honestly think that Moyes wanted to lose Arteta, Piennar, Yakubu and Beckford within a matter of months you need your head read.

Those of us who refuse to fall into the "Moyes is crap" mantra don't think he is blameless in the current mess. But his attitude is a direct result of the board, get a new manager in and he will be affected the same way. That is why we are calling for a change in the board FIRST. The fans need to pressurise the board into letting a proffessional outfit handle the sale of the club so that we can move on. We don't even need somebody that's mega rich. Just someone that's competent

Nick, #465,

I appreciate you provding some balance.

However, I do contest the argument that Moyes has "class", which you suggest is permanent.

Let's have a look at some recent measures of the class of David Moyes:

1. He chose to play Neville and Heitinga at CM when Barkely, who is one of our few natural footballers who can actually CREATE chances was fit and is chomping at the bit.

2. He makes consistently bizarre substitutions, usually after the game has already been lost.

3. He never leaves a player on the halfway line at corners. This is borderline insanity by most fans' reckoning.

4. He makes statements such as "it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight" to lift the players pre-match.

5. He regularly DEFENDS the chairman that the clown Dave Wilson implies I support.

6. He sold Yakubu after alienating the player beyond reconciliation. This player is amongst the top scorers in the league at frigging Blackburn!

7. He sticks by his favourites, despite the fact that we have some promising young players that have shown they can make a difference: Vellios, Gueye, Barkley etc.

8. He wants a centre back when we are devoid of creativity, even though Duffy is looking more than capable of filling in.

9. He harasses his own players from the bench. These are professional footballers for God's sake. Let them play!

10. His coaching team are all defense biased. Why will he not appoint an offensive coach? Perhaps he is afraid of being disagreed with.

11. He signed premium players that were shit: Bilyaletdinov, Kroldrup, and Beattie (the list goes on), and none of them were cheap at the time.



Phil, #503, who says we couldn't afford Ba's wages? I heard Moyes turned him down as he was seen as an injury risk? This certianly seems more plausible when we have Fellaini on £70k a week.

Nope Stoke turned him down over his medical records. We just wouldnt pay his wages.

Fellaini as I mentioned was a straight forward investment. We pay his ridiculous wages for 6 months to a year (£1.75M-£3M) but we ensure we got £15M in transfer fees as opposed to £0.

Steve, I do indeed follow football outside of Everton, probably more than most people, almost 24/7 like someone one said.. I know how much Rhodes would cost, but surely even the current board should be able to sanction a £6m signing if we were to bring in additional funds to add to the Bily, Arteta,Vaughan, Pienaar, Yak and Beckford money but I'm not foolish enough to fear it won't go to the bank.
I do, however, believe we could raise some funds by selling some of those I mentioned. Granted, most may not be wanted by other clubs but we should be getting 1 to 2 million for Yobo, and if Cameron Jerome is worth £4 then somebody would pay around £2.5-3m for Vic. Maybe £1m for Mucha, the same for Cahill. Get some of the oldies of the wage bill, and be more creative with Bosmans etc. all I'm trying, however badly, to articulate, is that Moyes savvy in the transfer market leaves a lot to be desired.

We need to get flags and banners inside goodison this friday with one clear message, KENWRIGHT OUT !!! I can`t take much more of this shit.

Anthony..Barkley..really? he has looked out of place in far more games than impressed. He is 17, missed a year through injury last season, and is not ready. To bring him in now, would be too damage him.

Who says Moyes is looking for a centre back and not creativity? utter speculation. The last four players he has signed: Two wingers, a striker and a central midfield with passing/goal scoring ability. I think the need to attack is recognised by the buys.

To quote poor signings is highly reductive when you don't quote the good ones. Which manager, Mourinho, Ferguson and Wenger included, has not brought badly? For bad signings look at the great; Lescott (near on 20mil net profit), Arteta (7million new profit), Baines, Jags, Howard, Pienaar etc. Big profit was also made on Macfadden, and minor profit on Johnson among others.



With respect to Demba Ba...Moyes declared he had an interest and several papers talked about funding problems with regards to his wages. I believe the more obvious reason is the simple inability to pay a signing on fee.

With regards to wages, we were the joint 9th highest in May 2010. Since then, our wages have dropped considerably, whilst those around us (Fulham, Stoke and Newcastle) have increased. No exact figures are available for 2012, but I would say with some certainty, that the top 6 of last season, plus Newcastle, Aston Villa, Fulham, Sunderland and Stoke are above us, as well as Bolton potentially. The argument that we are at the higher end of the wage table does not hold weight, and I expect we will finish around where our wages dictate. Beyond that, the effects of a small squad, decreased competition and lower squad moral, should be factored into representations of relative success. Few clubs in the league are in such a hopeless position as we have been in the past couple of seasons, and we are constantly outspent whilst selling more than our rivals.
You suggestions that we pay higher wages than most, are incorrect Anthony. The very fact is that we are not punching below or above our weight, but realistically oscillating between positions which we should typically occupy. This is an uncomfortable reality for most Evertonians, worsened by the overly poor football on display. But fans need to realise that we are now a bottom half team even if the style of our football could do with some improvement.

On the plus side, I believe the Billy money will be reinvested as the Arteta money plus Beckford/Yak, was sufficient enough to appease the bank. Hopefully by bringing in one or two players to improve the team in place of a perennial substitute, we can start to play better football.

With regards to a mass sale;

The prospect is insane and would see us relegated. We are uncomfortable in the league at the moment anyway, and the players we could afford would not have the quality to negate the necessary bedding in stage. We need to strip away the old players over the next two-three seasons and replace them with younger players on lower wages. The only realistic avenue aside from being purchased, lies in us selling a couple of players for alot of money and reinvesting. Financially, we really need Rodwell and Fellaini to play great over the next six months, and then sell them (as our most important and overated assets). If we could sell jointly for 25million (unlikely as it may be), we could probaly spend around 10million on capable replacements whilst positively working toward lowering out debt. As sad as it sounds, I think our only realistic plan for the next five years is to remain in this league. A mass sale is unrealistic and impossible because it relies on a mass of potential buyers, and ignores the knock on moral effects etc. Really we should be looking at the championship for players, as they will demand higher wages and more easily fit into an english style of play.

lower wages*.

Apologises for bad grammer etc, I am writing whilst working. Toffeeweb has a magnetic pull, even when it is all doom and gloom.

Lads, read "pay as you play: the true price of success in the premier league" - an analysis of the impact of finances on success in the premier league from 1998-2010. In a nutshell it ranks teams based on the value of the squad - generally speaking we have been 1-2 places above where we should be based on £££. Doesn't cover this season, but I'd reckon given the departures and others spend that we'd be looking at a "par" finish of 10-12. It's unfortunately the reality of where we're at - I don't like it, none of us do. Unfortunately things tend to come down to hard cash. We have been punching above our weight, hopefully we'll still do that this year...we're just middle weights, not heavy weights

Jim,

unfortunately I don't have the data to be definitive about salary spending. I would bet, however, that our average salary would place us pretty high up in the table if we could access relaible data to this effect. We may not spend as much in total as some of those clubs you mention, but we do pay our core players very well indeed (Cahill, Saha, Neville, Jagielka, Heitnga, and many of the more junior players have big contracts).

A small squad that is underperforming is still an underperforming squad.


On Ba, you have as much proof as I do regarding why we didn't sign him so please spare the bull shitting for someone who will buy it.

Please tell me how many games has Barkely started? You state that he has looked out of his depth in far more games than he has impressed. The poor lad has hardly had a chance to play in this team!

On the signings, you are right, it is a lazy argument to only pick the horror shows, but I am not alone in believing that Moyes is poor at buying premium.

Moyes has recently stated that he needs cover for Distin. He should be talking up Duffy in the media, not looking for more frigging defenders. This is a non-argument.



Please see appendix #531 for stronger points than the ones you cherry-picked to argue against.

For

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdDRHR3Bmd2ZLb0JJUHBBOUNJcHJqN0E&hl=en#gid=0

-Check out salary figures Anthony...a look at spending and wage increases/decreases over the subsequent period, makes our position quite clear.

With respect to Demba Ba - Stoke did not buy him because of the results of a medical, we did not. His injury record was not particularly awful, so where is your proof? Several papers reported a failure to meet wages as well as inferences about personal demands, as follows: http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Newcastle-Everton-West-Ham-transfer-news-Demba-Ba-agents-want-2m-sweetener-Magpies-will-pay-but-Toffees-reluctant-EXCLUSIVE-article746956.html

With regards to cherry picking Anthony, I don't need to address all your points. Some are valid, more are wildly speculative. If you prepare an article in part on the basis of wages, then at least do some research.

Barkley does not need to start loads of games to look out of his depth. He had a good game at the start of the season which raised expectation to stupid levels. Since then he has not overly impressed in senior or youth football, as posts (not just me) have increasingly and rightly noticed on this forum.

With regards to corners...I like the Mourinho practice of leaving players at the half way line. But NOT everyone does it, and regardless of arguments, our defensive set piece record is among the best in the league.

Barry Rathbone - "When 2 of our 3 footballing players left to go and play football the folly of 10 years failure getting enough creativity in the squad come home to roost."

The first part I 100% agree with, the second part, I am not so sure.

Moyes has never been a manger to throw caution to the wind, but there has to be a balancing act between attack and defence. Currently attacking players cost more than defensive players, and I can understand why Moyes has loaded the squad in this way from a financial point of view.

What I cannot accept is the entirely negative amnner in which he sets his limited attacking resources out in.

It is the mindset of Moyes that is compounding the problem of the limited resources.

In an ideal world I would get rid of the fucking lot of them.

At the risk of boring anyone else that reads this thread:

I have already made the distinction that average salary should be considered and not just total salary. A small squad on £60k per head could be cheaper than a huge squad on an average of £40k per head. Thus, total salary is not a fair excuse for league position.

You use The Mirror to evidence your facts regarding the Ba transfer. Thanks for the chuckle.

As you know, it is impossible to back up all observations and opinions with documented research. I don't profess to be right on all counts, and I have ammended my argument accordingly. However, you state that my points are largely "wildly speculative", when many of them are well supported by fans I know, and posters on this website.

It speaks volumes that you chose to ignore 8 points from the appendix when I only wrote 11.

Now go and get some more hard facts from the Mirror and Google to disprove my wild speculations.

Your comments are backed up by 'fans you know'...and you laughed at me for referring to a newspaper article for a general imo...your comments get better by the minute. Please try harder.

With reference you the points I responded to. I already noted some had value, some do not, and some I have responded to. For information sake, I referred to more than 3 points. I referred to Barkley, the corner routine, the players purchased and the suggestion (unfounded) that Moyes is looking for a defender in place of creativity. I also referred to the comment you made about Demba Ba.

Now whilst you hide behind minor comments, the following is clear.
Your initial argument about wages was misplaced and lacked even simple research.
Your comment regarding average wage instead of total wage is beyond stupid. The premier league is a squad game, not a first 11.
You make comments without any justification. The Ba comment I have never heard. Funnily enough the Ba wages and signing on fee stories have done the rounds on this forum and in the national newspapers. But you are probaly right.

And the bit I missed off...

Brilliant Anthony. What kind of confirmation were you expecting regarding Demba Ba? Signed copy from Moyes? You have asserted your case on Ba without any proof whatsoever. Very hypocritical.

Regarding your salary per head argument... absolutely hilarious, thank you for the chuckle. The Premier League is without a doubt a squad game. To suggest that only the first 11 (a highly subjective and changing unit) is a better barometer than the whole squad is encroaching on idiocy. Unbelievable.

Anthony you are echoing everything that most knowleagable supporters already know. The problem is that neither Moyes nor Kenwright will try to change anything.

They seem stuck with their heads in the sand or with their hands over their ears not wanting to effect change.

Yes we all understand there is no money so let's at least try something else instead of having faith in the same players and system that is no longer working. Everton are struggling against every team home and away.

I can remember when a certain Harry Catterick had the same problem with some regular players way back in 1966 (not as bad as this situation) He dropped them and we went on to win the cup that year. We have young,hungry players who are getting a raw deal from Moyes whilst players who are over the hill or underachieving are being selected every game.


If we have another bad performance on Friday that will effectively be the end of our season although we may still have a relegation fight on our hands if points continue to become hard to get in the league.

Surely starting with some new faces cannot make things any worse.

For starters leave both Anichebe and Saha out along with Cahill,Neville and maybe even Fellaini who is still little more than average.

Jim: "As sad as it sounds, I think our only realistic plan for the next five years is to remain in this league."

Unfortunately, as long as we play at Goodison in its current state or dont move, thats the only plan we can EVER have anymore. There is no other future. And ultimately that plan is unsustainable.

We are financially capped. If our ground situation remains as it is we will be relegated at some point, sooner than anyone imagines. Our board, and therefore the club are like a black and white television in the age of HD widescreen.

There is so much wrong with our club, How can we not sink ?

We have a Boardroom that is being out-performed on every level by just about every other boardroom in football.
A manager who is becoming increasingly hostile towards certain sections of the fanbase.
Players who think they are above signing autographs for the kids.
Players who are neither good enough or are passed it.
A non existent marketing department.
The worst kept stadium with the worst views in the Prem.
Fans cheating their own club by purchasing subsidised tickets meant for pensioners and juniors.
Other fans who dont go to the game urging fans who do, to stay away - ring any bells Anthony.
Catering facilities at our ground that fail even to reach the standards of the burger stalls outside.
Young men and women being verbally abused - and lets be fair, giving it back - when serving drinks to angry customers who have waited far too long.
Supporter groups being verbally attacked by other supporters.
People on Internet urging other not to purchase Everton TV, because they know how to get to see things free.
Supporters vowing not to put a penny into the club thats about to go under.

You cant even go to the toilet at half time without being knee deep in piss.

Our club is rotten, the only laughter you will here around the Goodison these is that of passing gobshites laughing at the shambles we have become.

When an organisation no longer functions there is only one place to Start.
You go to the top, then if you have to, you work all the way down. Its the ONLY way.

But how can we ever do that when we have people who will claim the Manager has had sufficient funds. People who peddle nonsense about us having one of highest wage bills.
I feel physically sick when I see Evertonians making claims like "Kenwright has had us punching above our weight"
Be of no doubt, every such claim is a message of support for this chairman and the rest of this worthless board.

Now I dont give a flying fuck if David Moyes is manager of EFC the day after new owners arrive. TBH I dont give a fuck if he`s in charge now - although I do think he represents our biggest chance of survival.

David Moyes is an employee of this club. no more, no less. The day he leaves he will pick up his settlement, jump into his car and fuck off with his p45 in his arse pocket. Blaming him for whats going wrong - especially when to do so, you make false claims supporting the board - is like blaming the Barmaid when your local boozer has gone right down the pan and is selling shite ale.

Until the name over that door changes, nothing else will

Nice post Anthony... We are in "the right weight division". The constant BS about us punching above our weight is utter, utter nonsense. It infuriates me whenever I hear it!

Wow Dave, just when I think you can't possibly come out with any more crap you come out with....

"Be of no doubt, every such claim is a message of support for this chairman and the rest of this worthless board."

You are a fuckin idiot, keep supporting Moyes, you are a blinkered fool and you're being found out just like Moyes is. You make assertions like "it's the ONLY way", like you are some devine Oracle. You talk crap and peddle shit, I'm glad my comments make you physically sick, without question you are the biggest dick that has ever posted on this site. My hope is that you fuck off and follow wherever Moyes goes to next, you deserve to be together for ever, two dull unimagintave prats that think they know best, then the rest of us can get back to watching football and not hoof ball, retard.

Robbie - your insistance that it was Kenwright who has had Everton punching above their weight will sicken every Evertonian I know.

As for you hope that I will follow Moyes ; No chance I`ve been an Evertonian for well over fifty years and will remain one long after he`s gone.

I`m won over by your argument though. A foul mouthed post full of childish namecalling has always impressed me.

Leave you to it

Haha, there you go again, inventing my position and then speaking for other Evertonians. You can never be won over by arguments because you simply invent your own meaning onto them.

So tell me, do you still know we are going to qualify for Europe this year with the mighty Moyes? I see you've already started covering your tracks by insisting it is ALL Kenwright's fault that we play shite negative football and have done for years, LOL.

If I were the other Evertonians you speak of, I'd be mighty cheesed off that someone like you insisted you speak for them I'm proud to say you don't speak for me, nor an increasingly vocal 0.02%.

Dave Wilson

Perhaps if the barmaid attracted punters rather than drove them away the pub would be in good shape.

The OP is typical fact-free bollocks. This argument has been done to death before, and just another lame attempt to have a dig at the manager.

There are numerous articles comparing our historic spend to our league position - Four Four Two, Swiss Ramble etc.

The overall conclusion is that we outperformed the rest of the league in Moyes early years but in recent times we have suffered a severe decline in our fortunes. This may reflect the fact that Moyes has lost his touch, but could also be that the rest of the league has simply caught up. So is it all his fault? Perhaps in part, but it is totally ridiculous to lay the blame of our appalling stagnation entirely at his door.

Dave Wilson 639 - you sum it up perfectly. I am fucking disgusted with this club at times but I will do my level best to support it in whatever way I can. I am in South Africa and will subscriber to and purchase goods to the extent I can afford to. Do I want the club to be in administration? No fucking way.

Robbie.

You're embarrassing yourself by claiming somebody else is inventing your position. You said the words, of course you could deny it? ... maybe not.

I don't claim to speak for anybody, but there are between 500-1000 people who will meet tonight. I cant be there, but I can assure you they speak for me. especially when they insist that getting rid of this Chairman is the ONLY way.

The 40,000 who showed appreciation for our manager's efforts last season were speaking for me too.

I guarantee you one thing: not one of tonights audience will agree with you that Kenwright had us punching above our weight ? your hopes of belonging to a 0.02% are a tad ambitious there.

Moyes will be gone soon and, if we don't get more points this season than we did last season, I will have been proved wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Dave, did you notice your last post was 666, surely that can't be a coincidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So all 40,000 (presumably then the away fans too!) where showing their appreciation and therefore presumably unequivocal endorsement of Moyes? What about the players? How did you make that separation?

Whilst in the same post you state that you don't claim to speak for anybody! Only 40,000 fans, including the away support, who is embarrassing themselves again??????

No coincidence, Robbie.

If you want me to justify every point I make I have no problem doing so.

We played Chelsea, it was the last game of the season and being as they don't even take up there allocation for important games it was no surprise they didnt for a "dead rubber". Evertonians were in seats usually set aside for away supporters.

There was a close to 40,000 Evertonians inside Goodison, as there has been for years, but I must admit I didn't count them

Moyes did not walk around with the team, he walked well behind them ? that's how the seperation could be made ? and all sides of the ground rose and chanted his name as he walked past waving.

Don't take my word for it, ask anybody who was there...

I'm not saying Moyes should stay or should go but the if was to go tomorrow

1) Who would we get?
2) Who would want to come ?

Amit:

the OP is fact free bollocks?

I disagree. There are a few opinions in there but there are also some facts. Perhaps if you calm down and then re-read it you might see what I have written rather than what you are projecting. The web articles you seem to think are hard fact focus on transfer spending and not salary expenditure (yawn).

Dave, I agree with some of your points. Like all complex arguments, Everton's decline is multifactorial.

What I have tried to express here is my frustration that Moyes is not held to account by too many fans because of the obvious failings of the board.

To simplify I will pick just one point from my appendix:

4. "He makes statements such as "it's like bringing a knife to a gunfight" to lift the players pre-match." I am pretty sure his increasingly defeatist attitude is not in keeping with his job descdritpion. He should be held to account as any one of us would be at work.
Bill for PM! (joke)

Graeme, #685,

As a club in the most lucrative football league in the world, as yet unproven managers (as Moyes was) would be falling over themselves to come to Everton. Did you know about Moyes before he arrived at Everton? I didn't, and he did a pretty good job of steadying the ship.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter who is to blame but our Club is seriously in danger of being relegated and becoming one of the 'big' clubs that has had its day. If this was a private business, drastic action woudl take place.

An inactive Chairman would go, the CE (Manager) would be changed, and the workforce (players) would be culled.

Anyone with any sense would at least consider the option? Maybe they have?

Anthony, I agree with everything you wrote in your original piece.

Moyes job hasn't been made easy by the clown holding the chequebook and mortgaging the club too far and I think Moyes has been led up the river just like we have been over the years with promises of money for players.

That said, it doesn't excuse the woeful performances, the failure to work with the talented players we did/do have like Yakubu, Bily, Yobo etc and ending up getting very poor value for them.

It doesn't matter who we play, how much money they have in relation to us, Moyes still seems unable to get our team to play decent football and secure comfortable results. I certainly can't remember the last time I've gone into the last 10 or 15 minutes of a game relaxed and wondering if we might get that 4th goal....

Graeme,who would we get and who would want to come? An apparent requisite for calling for Moyes to go. You know what, I could name some people but ,really why should I? Kenwright can employ people who know a bit to scour the world for the right man. For £3.5 million a year I would suggest that many would want to come. In fact,we could probably cut that by a third and still have plenty of takers.
The better the devil you know argument is worn out. The devil we know is stale and finished.

Anthony

Your Post 694 - "the articles focus on transfer spend not wages. Yawn"

So, you follow up a fact-free OP with what is just a lazy post because you did not read either of the articles.

The Swiss Ramble articles makes the following noteworthy observations (using 2010 figures because as at Sept 2011 when the artcile was written not every club had released 2011 financials).

1. EFC T/O 8th highest
2. EFC wages / turnover 9th highest. Ergo, the wages paid are 9th highest or more likely lower.

So, having spent 3m a year net spend on average in transfers and 9th highest wage /TO ratio, even the 8th and 7th placed finishes in the last 2 seasons look respectable, never mind the league positions achieved in his early years.

Net Spend is not a stick that can be used against Moyes. Defensive Football, players out of position and even a couple of bad buys yes.

Amit,

you are living in the past my friend, as are many Moyes supporters. I am looking at HERE AND NOW.

PS. if we have the 8th highest turnover, and the 9th highest salary to turnover ratio, the salary cannot possibly be lower than 9th in the league, or am I missing something?

BK is an Evertonian and he did try to bring the glory days back to Goodison, by trusting David Moyes to build a team that could get us there. Unfortunately for all of us the plan backfired and after upsetting most of our best players yet breaking our transfer record on a regular basis, Moyes didn't have the ability to mould these players into a successful unit. The banks want their money back now and with us losing so much on Kroldrup, AVDM, AJ, Yak,etc. and now Bily, it's left us in a similar position to Leeds after O'Leary's failure.
We have a squad of international and talented players who can't even pass to one another properly and players out of position, or on the bench after scoring or playing well the week before. The only thing Moyes ever had was motivational ability and now that is not enough. Every PL manager knows exactly how he plays the game and adjust their tactics accordingly. I'm afraid, even with the talent we have, we may still go down this season unless something changes

Anthony - 959

1. Re wages and turnover, it was my typo - EFC has the 9th highest Wage bill (not wage to turnover ratio) in the Swiss Ramble article and 8th highest turnover, ergo wages/turnover was lower (which it is, something like 13th in the Swiss Ramble table). So, 12 other teams spent a higher proportion of their turnover on wages than EFC, and 8 other teams spent more on wages. Last season only 6 teams finished above us. With a historically low transfer spend, there can be no doubt that even when factoring in wages, EFC have outperformed relative to other teams. This season, however, other teams may finally catch up with us, and it does appear that Moyes is losing his ability to motivate the team to produce consistent results.

2. You talk about the here and now, but your OP picked on Moyes net spend. To have a proper debate, you have to look at his whole record, including the past, otherwise its pointless to judge Moyes record.

3. You failed to do your research and there are facts which disprove your assertions. Pointing this out to you does not make me a Moyes supporter, only someone who wants to see the facts for what they are, not to ignore them as an inconvenience to my thesis.