I take your points on board but I think replacing Moyes will be much harder than people think. Oh and who calls him the "Moyesiah"? I've only ever seen that on this website.

Andy

Much of the argument is about the Moyes/Kenwright relationship, to me it's a copout just to lay the blame at Kenwrights door. BK doesn't get everyone back for corners he hasn't decided the style of play etc etc.

Further, the support of Moyes while calling out Kenwright just improves Kenwrights hold - the stronger Moyes is the more effective it is when he says the board/kenwright etc are blameless.

I've just watched us beat Fulham in a more enthused creative way, at this point I'm not arsed about Kenwright or Moyes because I'm an ordinary bloke and thats how fickle we are.

If it continues - fantastic, but there's only so many false dawns people can put up with, plus we're just about to hit a group of fixtures which if the money argument stands up we are fooked and will be down among the dead men.

All bets will be off then, even the most apathetic will be burning torches around Goodison - no matter what the spin about money, evertonian etc.

You're right there is no Moyesiah. It's unrealistic to expect everything Moyes does to be right. He has however done a good job at Everton IMO. He's brought in a lot of good players on low fees though had to pay fairly high wages to keep them. He hasn't achieved miracles (winning the league?) nor has he been the failure some would paint him as. The truth as always is somewhere between the two extremes.

I'd like Moyes to stay on and win something with Everton, but that's quite a sentimental view I know. I have a lot of sympathy for him and a fair degree of respect for what he's done at Everton. Whether that happens or not is another thing, and looks increasingly doubtful. We are struggling for points in the league and that's never good.

I do personally think he'll get us 45-50 points this season, but what happens after that is anyone's guess. I doubt Moyes himself would consider that good enough, and there have been signs aplenty of his frustration this season.

I do get a bit annoyed with his detractors at times, mainly at the inference that he is somehow unconcerned that Everton are doing badly. Although I understand the frustration at the football, I do think Moyes wants us to be scoring plenty of goals, playing good football and entertaining the fans. Getting players to do that is not as easy as some posters seem to think.

As for the football, tonight's match at Fulham has been one of the few entertaining games this season where we have won. Again a bad sign. I think Moyes has to really ask himself whether he feels he can achieve success and move things forward at Everton. If he doesn't feel he can then maybe his time is up.

As for us the fans, let's try and enjoy the distraction of a bit of a run in the cup. At least we can look forward to the draw.

Salvage what integrity and reputation you have left and go, Mr Moyes.

Who will take his place?

Anyone... fucking anyone!

That's not middle ground.

I am 110% behind him and 110% against BK.
One very talented manager is struggling due to the constraints placed upon him by one bungling idiot and his fellow board members.

Barry (363) - "Further, the support of Moyes while calling out Kenwright just improves Kenwrights hold - the stronger Moyes is the more effective it is when he says the board/kenwright etc are blameless".

Well, you're consistent in your "logic".

Thank God Basil isn't alive to read your posts.

COYB

Kenright, Green OUT!

Gavin (364) - Good post. Well-written and said.

We need new ownership. Only then will we find out about Moyes when he has a reasonable budget to compete with.

Kenright, Green and them OUT!

Mark (368) - Would take your post seriously if I could find your ToffeeWeb postings of the last 10 seasons predicting this one.

Hell, can't even remember you posting your Moyes Out sentiments these 3 seasons I've been in here.

Something about rats leaving a sinking ship . . . . .

Gareth (381) - Good stuff. Hold Fast is (unfortunately) the battle cry for this season.

Ownership knows the value of the Club plumments with relegation. My take is that if the worst-case scenario (Keeping in mind Moyes has always bailed them out) is staring them in the face, they'll sell.

Kenright etal OUT!

James Flynn, I was quoting the last three sentences from Andy Crooks last article, as I found the sentiments in that far removed from this one. Not my thoughts. I've a lot of opinions, but 'Moyes out' is not one of them.

http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/11-12/comment/mailbag/20270.html

Here is the link James. As you can see the point I was making was that I don't think that Andy crooks comments represent the 'middle ground'

When Moyes had money (even when he did, it was far less than our rivals) he did very well and we played good football. I think our current faults are down primarily to our funding problems, and an increasingly depleted and ageing squad. Don't get me wrong, I consider Moyes in no way blameless, but I do believe he is a victim of financial circumstances.

The next batch of fixtures will not be fun. I expect Toffeeweb's vocal opposition will be out in force, whether Moyes plays attacking or not. We will lose most of them I expect, but I do believe Moyes will get us to safety, and a 10th-12th finish.

Luckily the Fulham win has given us a cup run to hope for, and reminds us all that we can play well.

Mark (400) - Fair enough. I read you post at (368) literally.

James Flynn

Comprehension clearly isn't your strong point.

Looks like this was a Steve Round team and Moyes took a back seat given Round's comments that is. That would be ok by me and good management as well.

Jim (401) - Good post.

"I do believe Moyes will get us to safety, and a 10th-12th finish".

Fingers and toes crossed. Best we can hope for. The best hope being rid of current ownership.

Kenwright et al OUT!

Barry (404) - "Comprehension clearly isn't your strong point".

Logic is though; problem being ownership is the most (and easiest) logical conclusion we come to.

If only Basil . . . .

Yes James, in hindsight quotation marks might have been appropriate!

James - Bad news is Logic isn't your strong point. Good news is Talking Shit is. Every cloud...eh...

Mike - My point is our problem ownership. Nothing else. "Every cloud . . . is eh" is we're rid of this bunch who've taken us here; Kenwright and them, not Moyes.

How is that illogical? Do you disagree with my logic regarding ownership? Is that what you're saying? Please explain YOUR logic.

Moyes, Ferguson, Pep, The Special One, pick anyone else. No manager will take EFC forward under current ownership.

Moyes stays or goes. That's what managers do. I rate him, myself. But, I'll only discuss Moyes staying or leaving when we have new owners.

Is that logical enough for you?

Mark - (415) No harm. We won today on a couple nice plays. Against a team trying their best.

The vast majority of Everton fans are already on the middle ground. As always the problem is the extremists one tiny group who laughingly think that they are the thinking, big picture side of the debate and one very small group who unconditionally defend EFC whatever the criticism.

Moyes has had 10 years and in the first 7 he built a team to compete with the top 6. Yes, last season we were going to have a real crack. It never happened, injuries, fitness, form and zero additions to the squad plus a couple of want-aways, namely the Yak and Pienaar, and any excuses you can think of.

We put in a late run and with a bit of luck could have sneaked 6th but Moyes's safety first had us settling for draws in games we should have won. More worryingly was having our most creative player, Arteta, in a deep defensive role; maybe he was carrying that groin injury, maybe his knee was playing up but he was a shadow of his former self.

Last season didn't work out and Moyes should have started the rebuilding process this season... but no, he has relied too much on the old brigade who have failed to deliver and the younger players have only been given cameo roles. McAleny comes to mind, who came so close to scoring in that Arsenal game with a sweet volley ? and his reward for that is back to the reserves.

Oh well... I don't get paid 65k a week to run EFC so perhaps this season is a transition year where we consolidate our position in the Premier League and hopefully some of the up-and-coming players can get in and we can look forward to 12-13.

"Only then will we find out about Moyes when he has a reasonable budget to compete with."

Moyes was given adequate money in 2005 when we needed to get past Villareal. He fucked up by buying nothing but midfielders who were, quite blatantly, shithouse.

In my opinion, and this is in hindsight, Moyes should have been sacked somewhere between November 2005 and May 2006.

I was listening to talk sport last night and an Evertonian called Les came on. He was very supportive of everything at the club and urged that we get behind the team. His views were quite different from mine but he came across well.

It made me think that that the views of many regular matchgoers are probably still very pro Moyes if not pro Kenwright.

I think the majority of fans want him to stay. I personally think things have gone stale like at arsenal. Very few managers can stay at a club for this period of time and be successful, Ferguson being the obvious example.

I am concerned about his half time team talks. We were very poor for a long spell at the beginning of the 2nd half and that has happened in all of our last 3 games. The upcoming games I believe will be make or break for moyes.

It is my opinion that things have gone undoubtedly a little stale. Something fresh is needed and it may be cheaper to replace the manager than the team.

I would definitely not do it now though. Moyes if nothing else is experienced in grinding out points and i believe he will guide us to safety. Bringing in a new manager now would be highly risky and could go one of two ways. One way is to the championship. I'll skip that for now. The end of the season is another matter however. New players or a new manager. Something needs to freshen up. I think Moyes has done a great job overall for us and if he were to leave would so with my blessings and respect.

"One very talented manager is struggling due to the constraints placed upon him by one bungling idiot and his fellow board members."

So good it bears repeating. Well said Gareth

"One very talented manager is struggling due to the constraints placed upon him by one bungling idiot and his fellow board members."

So good it bears repeating. Well said Gareth.

"One very talented manager is struggling due to the constraints placed upon him by one bungling idiot and his fellow board members."

So good it bears repeating. Well said Gareth.

etc. etc. etc.

I support the manager Andy.

But I have said repeatedly that I dont consider him one of us, he`s a hired hand.

In the past couple of weeks I have said On these pages that I could have put a fist in his face at Tottenham, I`ve said I think his side are playing really shite football and have called his selections into question.

People like TJ williams and Kevin Hudson and Ian Tunstead take pretty much the same line as me, I`ve seen them all put Moyes to the sword. . . but there is an element who cant ,wont, or are just incapable of seeing this.

If you dont subscribe to the most extreme ,distorted , or just plain inaccurate criticism of Moyes, you are accused of being an "Apologist" or "Moyesophiles" These terms are IMO only ever used by the less capable debator.
If there is an more idiotic suggestion than "You think moyes can do no wrong " then I have yet to come across it, its a stupid claim made by stupid people.
I believe genuine criticism of Moyes is sometimes lost because the element I speak of, are often not taken seriously.

Its gotten personel, its no longer about the Everton Manager, its about Moyes.

I think it all boils down to how you choose to support, I believe when Moyes goes the Ians, Kevins and Tony`s of this world will simply think like me - the king is dead, long live the King. I believe they will support the new manager because thats their way.
I also think that if a new manager comes in, the people attacking Moyes would soon be criticising him if things dont go well - again, I think thats their way.

My worry is Kenwright will still be here regardless.

"If there is an more idiotic suggestion than "You think moyes can do no wrong " then I have yet to come across it"

You couldn't have been looking very far then. The suggestion that "nobody else could ever do as well as Moyes" regularly appears on here. Occasionally followed by the word 'FACT' ,just to add that extra air of idiocy.

Roman,

You do your credibility no favours posting shite like this;

"Moyes was given adequate money in 2005 when we needed to get past Villareal"

Go and have a good think about what our squad was, and what was needed not just to beat a team who should have been in the final, but just to hold our own in that cup.

I'm no fan of Moyes and I think his conduct, especially this season, has been at times disgraceful. I also don't subscribe to his footballing philosophy. which is predominantly negative and seeks first to suppress the other team.

There were two seasons out of the last ten where this weren't the case. No doubt somebody will pick me up on that, but we still have a better team than most in this league and we have played like cowards for a lot of this season.

IMO he has been brooding and moody and that has been transmitted to the players who will all have seen his passion dwindle and have responded likewise.

Like Dave I don't think he'll be here next season and I hope we get a manager who is positive about what a great job managing Everton is, and it is, and want's to uphold the traditions of our club.

I think a new set of eyes and a different voice will see this squad perform much, much better. Hopefully the guy who comes in will have a different idea of how the game should be played and will have the skill to implement his ideas. There's lots of good managers out there.

We will be losing a guy with a good eye for a player and who has proven in the past he can get average looking players to perform at a high level. We will also be losing a guy who likes to bring our youngsters down a peg and has problems handling anybody who's attitude doesn't mirror his own.

Far too often, criticism of Moyes on TW has decended into farcical, OTT bollocks, like the type pedalled in Anthony Jones post on Moyes net spend and Roman Sidey's completely ridiculous and blinkered take on the Villareal clash.

History shows that EFC under Moyes have the wage budget of a mid-table team and transfer budget of a championship side. Bollocks that he was given enough money in 2005 are so laughable that I struggle to write this reply. Has everyone forgotten how many donkeys we will had in our squad back then? Moyes would have needed to buy 10 players to have a side capable of outplaying Villareal. Instead, in true workman like fashion we went out. We were outplayed for large periods yes, but had every right to feel aggrieved about Duncan's disallowed goal which may have put us through.

If criticism of Moyes is to represent the "middle ground", it needs to be free of this type of shite.

Negative football, bad buys, players out of position, there is not a supporter in Goodison who would disagree with these sentiments. But some of the other shite takes things too far.

We won last night but if we keep playing that sort of football we are going to lose more games. Three more days of the transfer window, to get a striker in and Moyes keeps on about another central defender. Whatever money he has must be spent on a striker, 26 league goals we have scored in the league.

Andy, I am prepared to consider life after Moyes, but if the next manager is left with same financial restrictions then its only a short term high at best.

The club is in decline - For now, I will get behind Moyes as I want and trust him to secure our Premier League safety this season.

I'm hoping something will change in the summer, I always hope, but this year feels different.

So I will also continue to support the removal of Kenwright.

Sad really, as I'm sure he loves the club but the irony is that his epitaph may include relegation of his beloved Everton, if he doesn't find a buyer soon.

"One very talented manager is struggling due to the constraints placed upon him by one bungling idiot and his fellow board members."

What? "one very talented manager"... who has FAILED to win any sort of trophy in TEN YEARS but had more than one opportunity to do so... One who had won FUCK ALL before he came to Everton... one who has NEVER won a EPL game away fron home against Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, The Shite away from home in TEN YEARS... one whose negative tactics are as bad as we've ever seen at Goodison... one whose idea of attacking football is to play a formation of 4-5-1 & to hoof the ball long hoping for flick-ons...One who spent £10 mil on Bilyaletdinov... one who has ruined EVERY goalscorer he brought into the club... (even Saha can't be arsed anymore)

Very talented... are you having a laugh???

Amit. Generally agree with you.
We can all pick out certain instances and be for or against Moyse.
I would loved to have seen Moyes been employed and the Board give him carte blanche !

After a couple or 3 years we could have made had a definite answer whether he was good, bad or indefferent.
Unfortunately whether you like or loathe Moyse he was obstructed by the Board and never really given the chance to show his real worth.

Yes we can all point to good or bad signings and yes we can all point to good and bad performances but at the end of the day he has always operated with one hand tied behind his back.

The players and the Manager have a fucking lot to answer for at EFC but come the day of reckoning there is only ONE culprit.

It's very likely that we will get a new manager in the summer. I would go as far to suggest that he would come from within with Phil Neville and Irvine assuming control.

I think Neville would be a good option given his upbringing at Utd and his service to Everton these last 5-6 years. I cant see him being as dour as Moyes, he would command the respect of the players and maybe we would play a more attacking brand of football. Then again if we have revival and finish top half Moyes may even get a contract extension.

The football this season has been woeful but having read the comments on TW the consensus is that we have under Moyes played some decent football in previous seasons and it's only a matter of time before he turns it around. Let's at least give him to the end of the season and see?

Nelly - A blinkered, selective, typical Hate Mob post.

It clearly takes no talent what so ever to finish in the top 6 or 7 on a regular basis in the Premier League does it? It must be a piece of piss and clearly is if as talentless a twerp as Moyes can do it.

Pick out the Billy signing but completely ignore the fact he signed Arteta, Cahill, Martyn, Lescott, Pienaar, Baines, Jagielka etc all for relativel bargain prices.

It is clearly also easy to win at Old Trafford and Chelsea, which is why so many sides do it regularly year on and year out... Oh hang about no they don't.

Great anti-Moyes propoganda amusingly written. 'Moving towards the middle ground'? So you are starting to hate Moyes less?

I am totally behind Moyes, I think he's done a cracking job. I think he's an honest decent and talented manager.

I fear if we replace him we will get some half-arsed shite who will take us down.

Totally for Moyes, but I would like to see us under new ownership. Just carefully selected, I don't want us to end up like Birmingham.

Thing is though Chris, other teams go to Old Trafford and at least have a go to actually try and win the game.

I think Brian he's trying to, but we just lack the quality. The financial constraints have 'slowly' eroded our squad and we are left with a few good players but very little creativity and no cutting edge.

Roman, I think your comments on this site are among the most idiotic I see. Everytime you comment it seems to lack any knowledge of Everton, football or sanity.

Where did Villarreal finish that competition in the end? Semi-finals wasn?t it? And but for a referee's decision, we could have made the group stage.

Moyes took pretty much a relegation squad and got us to fourth the season before. That we lost to Villarreal was hardly surprising, we seriously lacked quality and European experience.

Nelly, you make yourself look foolish. Try a reasoned approach without caps and a better line of argument. No point even responding.

Some people make reasoned arguments against Moyes, and some for. The unfortunate times are when people like Roman create posts that deserve no place on these forums.

Chris, the trouble this season more than any is he's virtually surrendered games before a ball has been kicked. I have never heard such nonsense as the negativity he spouts before games. he'd be better keeping quiet, similar to this season's post match comments after a loss, they are virtually verbatim every game and don't often reflect the poor football he has put on show.

Don't forget gems like the one against Arsenal when he said we were the most likely team to score when he took our only striker off and replaced him with a centre half, Saha for Distin... now forgive me for pointing out the obvious but, if he thinks a centre half replacing a striker is the way to score a goal, he needs help.

Hurray for Jim! A voice of sanity. Moyes turned round a struggling team and provided the club with more stability than any Premier League side - bar Arsenal and Man Utd.

We're certainly having a poor time now, but even this is far better than the farce Moyes inherited. Ten years ago, we had Ginola, Gazza, Nyarko and other long forgotten clowns going through a revolving door each season. Now we have no money and a small, stable squad.

Yes, Bily was a mistake ? something acknowledged by all concerned ? at the same time we signed Distin and Heitinga who've both done reasonably well. We need creativity and goalscorer but lack the money to buy so we're shopping in Lidl not Waitrose.

Moyes may well move on as 10 years is a long time in a job like. Easily long enough to attract dingbat critics.

Gavin

I think you`ve provided a good example of what Amit is talking about. Those of us at the Emirates that night know it wasn't as simple a substitution as you're making out. Disitn did not go on as an extra defender; he went to centre-back instead of Heitinga, who in turn went into midfield. Fella was pushed on to replace Saha who was struggling and cramping up.

So what you are pointing out isn't quite as obvious as you think, some will view it completely differently. We did then look the better team (albeit briefly) and we were undone by a Goal of the Season contender.

The idea that our problems are either the fault of Moyes or Kenwright is fatuous. If Moyes had managed to get us through the Champions League qualification, further in the Europa League or managed to win the FA Cup when we had the chance, which were all more than plausible with the staff we had at those times, our financial position would have been different and our perception of Kenwright (some of us anyway) would have been different.

Don't forget, we haven't just borrowed against future earnings. We borrowed against future success which did not happen. And of course if Moyes had unlimited funds ? which very few managers have ? his achievements would be greater.

However, the idea that he is "one very talented manager struggling due to the constraints placed upon him by one bungling idiot and his fellow board members," is only a part of the picture. Moyes is defensive, hesitant, overly cautious in all areas, and unresponsive to the fans' legitimate demands for attacking entertaining football ? and he would be those things regardless of the money he has to spend.

I would like to see the back of both of them.

If ten years ago YOU were asked, who would you pick as Everton manager? Who would you pick? Now the same question ten years later! Who would you pick as Everton manager who will keep us in the Premier League for the next ten years? Not so easy . Not a big fan of crap football or the board, but horses for courses.

Chris Sudall,if it comes across as anti Moyes propaganda the I've got it wrong .Our club is in crisis and it was an attempt to encourage more positive debate.

Dave Wilson, dead on. The idea that Moyes is at fault at all times for every setback is as ludicrous as the position that he is utterly blameless for our dire displays and regular bitch-slappings. Part of the problem is the lasting nature of transiently held views when expressed on the Internet.

Before the existence of sites like ToffeeWeb, fantastic though they are, fans would express their discontent in a pub after the match, blame managers, players, everyone, and the next week, praise those same individuals to the skies after a win. When a view is expressed on a site like this it lives on. Posters get married to a position and defend it in the face of all subsequent events and evidence. They have little choice. Factions form.

The greater problem arises when extreme views expressed on websites gain such wide acceptance that they become almost impossible to oppose. Take the view that Kenwright is to blame for all our problems, for example. Those who wonder what would have become of Everton if Moyes had not become manager ten years ago should ask themselves what would have become of Everton if Agent Johnson had continued to control the club.

Kenwright should sell this club. No question. But he is not the figure of evil or even incompetence that some on this site regularly suggest. He is very much a victim of circumstances - and in some ways, a victim of our poor performances on the field at crucial moments.

Jack if you think our financial position would have been altered by winning the FA cup or Uefa cup when we had the chance, you are miles away from reality. Winning the FA cup instead of runner up, would have got us just over a million more. With regards to the UEFA cup....well the lack of money, even for winning, is well documentated. We are not a few million away from being able to compete financially, but 50million at least.

Dave

Why do you always try and intimate you speak for the fans as a whole because you were there?

Most of my away firm went and they were disgusted by the sub. Pushing Felli up was a daft move widely condemned, nor was RVP's goal a contender for goal of the season. It didn't even win goal of the month.

It did sound a bit anti-Moyes to me, Andy, but it has brought out some decent debate (and the usual nonsense mudslinging). Good to see that the likes of Dave Wilson, Jim Knightly and Jack Molloy are able to take a balanced view and not just use every situation, however irrelevant, to build a fatuous case.

Gavin, your point, though a little exaggerated, is relevant though, I do think Moyes has been negative in interviews and I'm pretty sure he's hoping for an opening elsewhere.

Stephen #563, it's because he is an arrogant narcissist, ironically in the same vein as both Kenwright and Moyes. He does it is all the time, doesn't provide his opinion, instead tells us what the world is as fact and that he speaks for everyone that goes the match.

Tip to Dave Wilson, try including the following phrases in your posts if your ego will allow.

..... I think..... I believe..... I would like...... In my opinion..... I thought..... I assume......

I'll give you an example........

I think Moyes did a superb job when he came in 10 years ago, young fresh positive, eager and fearless. He not only steadied the ship but brought back some pride in the blue shirt. Over the next 3 years he refreshed the team, made largely very good buys and came up with a system that suited the players at his disposal, it wasn't particularly pretty but was effective. Whilst I was very happy with the results I personally became more than a little tired over the next few years of seeing Marcus Bent tiring himself out doing defensive duties and then being too tired to join in attacks as our single striker. In my opinion, this same strategy was used for both Andy Johnson and James Beattie who I would love to have seen play together up front as a striking partnership.

I thought this way of playing football resembled more hoof all and percentage football. Knock it long into the corner, get the striker to run after it, hold it up and try to either get a foul, a throw in or wait for the midfield to support you. Not pretty stuff, but with the likes of Arteta around to take free kicks and with Lescott and Cahill in the box we always looked like nicking one from set pieces. Many 1-0 wins followed and I enjoyed my trips abroad into Europe for the first time in my life, mainly because of being with the thousands of Evertonians in Nurnberg and Florence and the atmosphere and not because of the actual football on show.

In my opinion, Moyes throughout this period had started to show some worrying traits. Substitutions appeared to be too late and when done were largely negative. We seemed to be happy with getting one goal and then sitting back inviting pressure, even making defensive substitutions when 1-0 up and seemingly encouraging more defending. A couple of games stick in the mind, Man City and Tottenham at home for example. After which, Moyes came out and effectively said that a lot supporters don't know what they are talking about and he knows best, remind you of anyone?

The same 'style' of football and formation was then employed week in week out, home and away, regardless of opposition and players available. In many cases some seemingly favoured players were being played out of position to suit the established formation and their form appeared to suffer for it, drawing significant scorn from many Toffeewebers, me included.

Moyes appeared to be turning more and more negative each year, fantastic opportunities presented themselves for us to kick when faced with 10 men a number of times in big games against big opposition, Liverpool and Chelsea away come to mind. In both games Moyes didn't change a thing despite the early sendings off and we were beaten both times, opportunities gone. Whilst the football on show was getting progressively worse in my opinion, we also had the indignities of being absolutely battered and humiliated many times in both Europe and in the league. It may be that following these humiliations Moyes decided the best way forward was to make sure it never happens again and therefore set his teams out to be even more cautious with the now common keep it tight and nick one mantra, I don't know.

Over the last 5 years i believe the football on show has become progressively worse and worse and Moyes' attitude has been progressively more negative with each passing season, (and I didn't think it was particularly attractive in the first place.) The simple fact that we haven't won away at any of the big 4 in ten years of trying I think is testament to the negativity shown over many many years, but which seems to becoming ever more present as we move forward, or is that back?

The previous limitations I had observed in Moyes' decisions seem to still be there, poor subs, poorly times, players out of position, defense first, poor tactics, etc. etc. but in addition to that the desire to go out and win matches seems to have gone, never mind trying to play attractive football.

I think his poor man management style has turned a number of players off wanting to play for both him and ultimately Everton, which has resulted in players leaving prematurely for minimal fees at great loss to the club, Yakubu, Beckford and Yobo are good examples.

I think the time for change is long overdue. Thanks Mr Moyes for your first 5 year plan but not your second 5 years in which I think you came to the limits of your ability.

See how it's done? All my opinion, never claimed I spoke for the masses and never claimed anything as fact, try it Mr Wilson.

Stephen, no offence but Van Persie's goal was outstanding.

Good Robbie.

When Everton took David Moyes as their full-time manager, make no mistake, it was a gamble... and, as such, it was, at that time, as much of a risk, if not more, than all those calling for change are asking for now!!

Moyes was a young up-&-coming manager in charge of an average Preston side in the then 1st (2nd) Division. What he bought to an aging, under-achieving Everton was a new-found belief, passion, will to win and a sense of belonging to an EFC going places again.

It quite quickly became obvious that the manager's tactical awareness and ability left a lot to be desired. However, just as clear to see was everyone's willingness to turn a blind eye to these shortcomings as, for now, we all concentrated on rebuilding the empire.

After taking us from `sleeping giants` fighting at the wrong end of the Premier League, to European football again, with the rightful tag of `Best of the Rest`outside the Premier League's top 4, expectation was once again raised. This was now the perfect time for Moyes to show us all exactly what he'd learned after seven or eight seasons at the helm of a top club.

Instead, I think Mr Moyes has done the exact opposite! With the last 2½ seasons being Everton's worst since he took over. Now in order to arrest this alarming downturn in fortunes, Moyes would first of all have to admit his previous mistakes; secondly, he'd have to acknowledge his own managerial shortcomings... and then do a complete 360-degree turn and go against all his footballing beliefs/philosophies.

Maybe then, when those calling for change are told to be careful what they wish for, they should point out that this sentiment must also apply to keeping the current man in charge. While wanting a fresh, young manager is undoubtedly a gamble, how much of a gamble will we be taking on, at best, more of the same, at worst???

Robbie Sheilds

Try to get your head around the theme of the OP lad.

Andy Crooks is trying to raise the bar of debate by eliminating all the idiotic name calling and getting to the issues. People like Jack are trying to drag the debate about 47 rungs up the ladder from where you want it to be.

Just recently you have referred to people who didn't agree with you on the live forum as "tools"; you`re constantly angry with people you claim "Think Moyes can do no wrong"; you call other people "idiots" who don't agree with you.

On "the Sinking Feeling" thread you decided to lable Evertonians who don't agree with you as "Muppets of the highest order" WTF?
You may well think that makes you sound all big and clever, butI think I speak for the majority - on this occasion - when I say it merely comes across as cowardly and childish. Ask yourself why nobody responded, or why it ended the thread?

Look at my post #476... It's full of "I think" or "I believe" or "IMOs" , but once again you are shown to be incapable of seeing it.

The bar is being raised lad and you are getting left behind. Brainless name calling will draw fewer and fewer responses, but it will will put an end to more and more threads.

Stephen

If I can't get to or see a match, I want other people on here to tell me what happened.

I was not debating the rights and wrongs of the substitution at the Emirates, I was merely explaining why it happened. We were short up top and Saha was injured. You say your mates didn't agree with it ? Snap, neither did any of mine. They thought McAleny should have come on first. But I was not trying to speak for others, I clearly stated that "some will view it completely differently".

As for the goal, the replay was shown on the screens imediately afterwards and I have never heard a response like it. Instead the usual cheers, The Emirate quite literally let out a huge collective gasp ? your mates will confirm this.

I don't watch MotD so if you tell me it wasn't a contender then it wasn't. but it was the best goal I`ve seen this season and I could tell by the reaction that the crowd also felt they has witnessed something special.

Can't wait to see the goal that beat it.

Dave I know where the players put themselves and you've pretty much nailed the Moyes fail again for me.

Distin comes on, Saha goes off.

A centre half moves to midfield and a defensive midfielder moves up top as a striker, square pegs round holes? Dave who was on the bench?

Van Rapist did score a cracker but he's got a chance to in any game if you give him enough space, the whole point of a striker is to find a way to score goals - he did just that, our striker had been taken off and our others were catching splinters in their arse.

Pretty sure that Van P was the goal of the month.

The debate about how many strikers we play which seems to crop up pretty often on here is often a bit meaningless. On Friday night at one point Fulham had 4 strikers on the pitch, we had just one, you can't say that made them more attacking than us though. Since we've barely had a striker that's worthy of being called one, I can understand (though not always agree) with the temptation not to play one.

Jermaine Beckford continued his superb scoring record in the FA Cup with both goals against a plucky Swindon side.

Beckford, who bagged a hat-trick against Nottingham Forest in the third round, added to his cup tally from close-range in the fifth minute.

We should have sold Saha, an older injury-prone forward but then that's hindsight for you... or just another example of Moyes's intransigence

Oh, by the way, Yakubu is scoring for fun as well; so much for a Moyesiah eh?

At least we have the Stracq who will no doubt get a run in the reserves for having the impudence to score a goal.

Robbie Shields, it's all very well and good writing a lengthy and rational post to prove a point, and some of what you write above is balanced and reasonable. But very often you dismiss anybody whose opinion differs from yours with sarcasm and obscenity. To tell the truth I don't have a problem with the latter, this is football forum after all. But to mock others for writing as if they know it all and for being dismissive of others is a bit rich, coming from you. To quote yourself,

'you are a fuckin idiot'

"Van Rapist"?

Really? For a man who was released without charge, with the case dismissed and his accuser admitting to having lied?

Not big and not clever.

Dave,

To be fair it comes across as if you were trying to offer a case for the sub. also, using "those of us at the Emirates that night" implies those in attendance knew something other's don't.

We can all see and probably to a man agree that Saha is permanently fucked and shouldn't be playing. You could argue that a sub of that nature sent out a message that we are happy with a point and the players responded to that. You could also just say it's that extra bit of quality showing through.

I seem to remember the Ambrose goal winning GotM that month though I may be wrong, it was a brilliant goal. When a goal like that goes in, I don't really look to blame someone. Certain teams and players are that good you just have to admire what you have seen. That was one such thing and I spent a good bit of time defending the team and manager from dog's abuse on the matchday forum.

BTW, I can see why you go out your way to defend Moyes, some of the shite on this thread alone is shocking.

Simon Bates 597 "Instead, I think Mr Moyes has done the exact opposite! With the last 2½ seasons being Everton's worst since he took over."

Don't you think it's slightly coincidental that he hasn't spent a bean in these last 2½ years, and has not been able to replace his 2 quality footballers in Pienaar and Arteta?

This cull and sustained zero spend has finally caught up with us.

I think Moyes has generally adopted a defensive, solid at the back ethos, but equally in those 10 years we saw a gradual improvement in the playing squad and IMO the football aswell. Culminating in the best left side combo in the premiership with Baines/Pienaar, and while we had Donovan surging down the right with Arteta pulling the strings in the middle, all that was missing was a top quality striker - This could have been the Yak on a good day, but for whatever reason, post injury the manager didn't fancy him.

I don't know who will be Everton manager next season, but whoever it is will have a job holding on to our better players and trying to replace and improve the squad, as it clearly needs an injection of quality and freshening up.

Sadly to achieve this we may either have to sell again, or hope that Kenwright can find a buyer with the capacity and willingness to invest - unlike our current board.

Villarreal were a tough draw, and I still resent that the Shite got to play three laughable teams to get into the group and we got stuck with that. However, I stand by my opinion that that was the summer when Moyes needed to really step up. He'd taken us to 4th which was amazing with the squad he had.

Losing to Villarreal was a kick, but, admittedly, not a surprise, but then to get belted 5-1 by Bucharest, and win only one of our first eight or nine league games was unacceptable. Moyes brought in something like five or six players in that window (mostly on undisclosed fees so who knows how much they cost?), and all of them, barring Neville, stank the place out.

Of all those players he bought, none were strikers, leaving us to go into a new campaign with a strike force of James Beattie and Marcus Bent! Someone please tell me what is so idiotic about my appraisal of that summer?

Roman,

We had a team that was favourites to go down. Luminaries such as Zinedine Kilbane, Weir, Hibbert, Carsley and Bent were asked to go and play against some of the top sides in Europe.

I've got a lot of respect for them players mentioned but they are nowhere near that level, not one of them.

I remember us spending a few million that summer with Neville being the biggest purchase and Beattie costing £6m in the Jan and not really looking settled. Gravesen left and Arteta came in. Arteta had a few hit-and-miss months but looked a decent player. At that point though he weren't as good as Gravesen. One game against Villa, I think in the cup was class where Tommy had been running the show all season.

You're right, he did buy a few crap players, Davies for one. But we needed to build a squad to compete on two fronts and really needed about ten players. We never had anywhere near the dosh for it and we bought a load of compromises because we had no choice.

In my eyes, the Bucharest game was a hangover from losing to Villarreal. The fans, the players and the manager were all visibly crushed and I remember feeling down in the dumps until Xmas myself. God knows how the players felt.

To keep it respectable was an achievement against that Villarreal side who many Blues including me will say are the best footballing side they have seen with their own eyes in a long, long time.

Roman, a bit harsh.

Arteta ? permanently for £2m, brilliant
Davies ? pretty average for £3.5m
Krøldrup ? who knows what happened there?
Neville ? brilliant at £3.5m
Ferrari ? on loan, very good
Valente ? good for £1.5m
Van Der Meyde... well, he set up Gosling for the win against Liverpool so in my eyes totally worth it.

Sure we needed a striker but with one upfront with Bent, Beattie, Ferguson it was okay. It all came down to who was available also, and who we could afford.

All fair enough Stephen. As I did acknowledge, for Moyes to get us to fourth with that squad was an amazing feat, and I have made it no secret that I thought he was the Moyesiah until about 2008.

I did read at the time, I think Tim Cahill said that the Bucharest game was hard for that exact reason that you said.

I still think that 11th place at the end of that season was a terrible end product of what was supposed to be a year that we kicked on. To be fair, I only just remembered that Carsley was injured for the entire campaign, which probably had a lot to do with our defence being quite ordinary.

Nick, fair assessment, but I see it slightly differently. I didn't consider Arteta either because he'd already been there for half a season when we bought him.

Davies ? waste of time and money.
Krøldrup ? Agree with you. A truly adequate question cannot be asked or answered about this transfer.
Neville ? very good buy at the time.
Ferrari ? barely played for us. 10 games maybe?
Valente ? old and injury prone when we signed him.
Andy van der Meyde ? desperately wanted him to do well but his head never came over from Milan.

I read somewhere towards the end of August that year that we were linked with Guti. It was a blink-and-you-miss-it type of link, but had we got him instead of Davies and Van der Meyde, we could have done a lot better that year I think, as he would have been perfect for the type of football Moyes plays.

I would put more emphasis two seasons later. We bought well. Jags, Baines, Yak, and Pienaar came in towards the end of the season. But this was also the time Fernandes didn't make the move permanently. Arteta was being asked to do too much. He was the only player able to keep hold of the ball and Manny would have been excellent partnering him. For some reason he didn't sign, but we've struggled in the centre ever since. What could have been!

Yes, if we'd managed to sign Manelele permanently I think things would have been a lot better, and we wouldn't have had to spend ?15mil on Fellaini.

With respect Jim, here's some reality. The FA Cup is worth only £3.2M to the winner, but not the mere £1M you suggest. But the point isn't the prize money alone. There are increased gates, more television money, more merchandise sales and there is a knock on effect which stimulates gates across the board, even for league games. Same in Europe, particularly the Champions League. It's a money tree. Winning trophies, even the lesser trophies, also translates into greater prestige and greater value to sponsors, which leads to more sponsorship money. Also, players are less eager to leave a winning club. It's the old adage. Nothing succeeds like success. Moyes hasn't brought us enough of it when we all know it was more than possible at one point. Had he done so, there's no absolutely question we would be in a better financial position than we are today. Not all of our problems would be solved but we would definitely be more competitive.

Robbie Shields

That was a great post, summed up the Moyes years entirely for me.

Amit:

Thanks for advertising my previous post, but it's a bit cheap labelling it as OTT bollocks on another thread where readers can't reference it to make up their own minds.

If you had have read my comments carefully, or simply read them at all, you would have noticed that I built my argument primarily on the average salary at Everton, and this season's league position and run of piss poor results.

PS. The criticisms you rightly point out of Moyes no doubt affect league placing, so what is this magical force that allows Everton to finish where affluence dictates?

Robbie #586....you can speak for me mate....spot on post

Money or no money, my one question to anyone/everyone (on either side of the fence) is simply:

Would you be happy to have Moyes as the manager of EFc for another 3 years?

(5 years was too long a time span so reduced it a little).

I don't need the reasons why (have read just about every arguement for and against on this site already), a simple yes or no will do.

For me, it's a resounding NO!

Lyndon / Michael - is there anyway the above question could be put in a poll on the site? Would be interesting to see what the result would be as well as how many people would vote.

(I would hope the PR dept of EFC would not register multiple times under false names to skew the outcome....)

Denis

TW is known for having having a vociferous anti Moyes membership.
If the same questions were put on Kipper the result would be a landslide in favour of Moyes.
The result here would not be cut and dried on TW.

Some will/have claim post 586 was "spot on". but many people will read it and recognise the huge gaping holes in it. does that make them "apoligist" ?

The OP suggests there is no Moysiah and if you accept that then you would have to accept there is no "Moyes worshippers"

The issue here is not whether you are a "Apologist" or not, Its whether you are prepared to easily led by agreeing with even the most unbalanced, inaccurate criticism or you you choose to trust own eyes and ears.

I`ve said before, I believe its gotten personal. People talk openly about "hating" Davey Moyes. When they can see defeats against 10 men Chelsea and Liverpool, but are unable to see 10 men victories against Chelsea and City any hope of the balance A Crooks calls for in his OP goes completely out of the window.

Dave 922 - I know TW is more anti than pro. I was actually more curious to see how many people would vote, as opposed to how they would necessarily vote.

I don't take terms like 'apologist', 'Moysiah', 'MOB', '0.2%' etc seriously and would encourage you to do the same. At the end the day its hardly a deep personal attack. Actually I find them quite funny. Also if someone says on here they 'hate' Moyes, I would urge you to take that with a pinch of salt. There will always be people blowing off steam after a shite perfornce/defeat. Again, I dont think you should worry about those people buying balaclavas and camping in Moyes' garden waiting for him to come home so they can bash his head in. Don't take everything so literally.

Most readers on here can make up their own minds as well, based on what they see/read - we're not all 10 year olds.

Personally I'm fed up with the way Everton play football and have been for years (many many years) - call me a purist if you will. Assuming we don't go down, I dont really care too much about the results unless we're going to be challenging for the upper positions in the league. I would rather we played the game the way it was supposed to be played and finished 14th than play the utter crap we play and finish 10th. At least that way a larger proportion of the matches we play will offer some entertainment. It's not exactly a surprise why we're not on the TV that much - we're one of the worst (if not worst) teams to watch in the premiership. Also the 'style' of play doesn't exacty help in getting new fans in the future. The style is down to the manager.

Regardless of the amount of money Moyes has, he is a very defensive minded manager and always will be. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, however I would prefer we had a manager that beleived that attack was the best form of defense. If you are happy with the overall 'style' of our play - and I am not just talking about this season but the last few years - then you're entitled to your opinion.

If I had my wish, I'dl like a new owner and a manager (4-5 years ago), Thanks.

Denis

I dont take terms like Apologist or MOB too seriously either. In my mind anyone who uses such terms instantly loses - and often kills the debate.

But when people start talking about "hating" the manager something is clearly wrong.
This is 2012 Denis, the balacalava is no longer needed for camoflage.

Nobody enjoys watching Everton play at the moment, I find it really truely bizzare that anyone could be even suggest such a thing. Is it to imply they dont know any better ?
The fact is Everton, have on average the oldest supporters around. Many of these people who "dont know any bettter" grew up watching Everton Greats - not to mention some abject shit under Lee/Walker/ Smith.
They know their stuff alright. They also know The current Everton manager works at a serious disadvantage in comparison to his predecesors. . .and for me THATS were the divide really is. - Some believe the manager needs to be able to bring in decent "footballers" in order to play decent football and some (presumably including you) believe he should be able to do it with what he has.

The OP calls for People defending Moyes to move to the middle ground. IMO they were already there.

Its the people who subscribe to the ridiculous claims (like those made in the post I mentioned) that have a ways to come.

I suspect you will have your new manager next season Denis . .but dont hold your breath waiting for a change of owner.

.

Dave - I generally know where you're coming from. As for me, I have felt for many years that under the current manager we will never play attractive football. Again I emphasise, I am not just talking about the last 12-18 months, its not a money thing.

During most of Moyes' time we have played defend first football - because he is a defence first manager. I've lost count of the number of times we've started with a defensive attitude/formation against sides we should be attacking (eg playing promoted sides at home, playing bottom of the league away etc) - he will simply never change.

Again, this is not necessaily a bad thing, just not for me. Admittedly there have been some great games to watch (e.g Fiorentina, that stuffing of Sunderland a few years back) but these have generally been few and far between. Also absolutely appaling/dire performances (back to back 4-0 defeats to villa and bolton spring to mind and the first 8 games of the 2005/6 season, we scored 1 goal!). Even during our 'high moments', we're rarely good to watch.

Thats my view anyway - will always be gratefull to him for steadying the ship in the first few years but I'd like a manager who is more attack minded and places an emphasis on pace and creativity in the side (he's had 10 years to bring those types of players in rarely did). Maybe I'm old school - am just generally board of watching us play and have been for a looooonnng time.

We'll see what happens to the club in the coming months - personally I hope there is a massive clear out in the summer, starting with Moyes, Neville, Cahill, Saha and Anichebe, (but I know I'm just dreaming and will be saying the same thing in 12 months time - like I did 12 months ago.........).

make that bored and not board!

Dave you are right in saying that those defending Moyes are in the middle ground. There is no left wing now and,to me. that represents a big shift. I take your point that on Blue Kipper things might be different but I don't read the site(doesn't everyone want to see their own views endorsed)

There are no Moyes worshippers on this site. To me the divide is between those who see his faults and give him the benefit of the doubt and those,like me,who see his faults and think he should go.
Jack Molloy made the very pertinent point that the internet records the comments we would previously have made in the pub and entrenches our views.

The debate on off the field matters is mostly informed and enlightening. The debate about what happens on the pitch turns into name calling and is mostly poor.

I think our side are a soft touch without bite. Our substitutions are often too little too late.Our midfield seems dedicated to protecting the back four. We do not press the opposition in their own half the way we used to. Our defenders,often rightly accused of hoofball are too often left with no options. Let's talk about football.

I agree with both Dave and Denis. I used to read Kipper a lot but when my opinion of Moyes changed, I couldn't take the constant praising.

The problem Moyes is always going to have with this money argument is that when he signed, one of two things happened:

1) He was aware of what constraints he was going to be working under for the duration of his five year contract, thus, should have been managed his own squad better.

Or, more likely;
2) He was lied to by Our Dear Leader, and, thus, should not continue with the "best chairman I could ask for" crap.

People compare the current situation on the pitch against " the abject shite" served up by Gordon Lee....Well let's just remember Gordon Lee very nearly won the league not once but TWICE only to falter in the last 3 or 4 weeks of the season....Moyes has come nowhere near.

At the begining of the 78/79 season the team went 18+ games unbeaten.... a run of games which included the 'Andy King' derby (again something which Moyes has never done)...He also took us to an F.A.Cup semi final....yes at the end of his reign Gordon Lee's team was awful and guess what he was sacked....All things considered I think the criticism of Gordon Lee is a little harsh.

Moyes too has had his moments but ultimately he has flattered to deceive and the team now plays in a style which is just as bad (if not worse) as anything Gordon Lee produced but yet he is still here...I would definately like to get a manager who believes in trying to win games by playing open entertaining football....it will never happen under Moyes

Like him or not it cannot be denied that the team is going backwards....forget about the top six finishes they are no more with this current style of play.

Moyes did a decent job from 2002-2009 but the last 2-3 yrs have been painful to watch....thanks for the memories and the very nearlies (Champs lge F.A.Cup, League Cup) but his time is done and he should now be ordered his 'taxi'.