Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Time to think about the Chelsea game
117 Comments: We were poor at Wigan, we didn't get at them enough as they were there for the taking and we can't play that way against Chelsea. We have to get back on track.
I think we can get a result because Chelsea were poor on Sunday. They were all over the place! I could not believe it... they were three up because Man Utd ripped them apart.
If we show the spirit we showed v City, we can get a result. So come on, Blues fans ? let's get behind the lads and get Goodison rocking again!
COYB
Michael Summers, Posted 07/02/2012 at 10:54:19
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Chelsea are very, very ordinary this season. Their new coach was used to being top dog in Portugal and seems to be struggling badly as one of the pack. Their old guard of Cole, Terry, Lampard and Drogba look jaded (I know Drogba is at Afcon), and the new players, Mata apart, are unimpressive. Luiz is a laughably bad defender and must be exploited on Saturday. I know it would be completely out of character for Moyes but I feel this is the perfect opportunity to play two strikers, Stracqualursi being one of them, as this would reduce Luiz to a gibbering wreck.
That Luiz lad would make a cracking midfield player. Whoever put him centre back needs their head examining.
Barry, I know this is not strictly Everton related, but Luiz stikes me as a headless chicken type of player who will never have a natural position. What do you think? To make this relevant, this situation will suit us on Saturday.
Sorry, I meant to add that, even in midfield, I think Luiz would be caught out of position regularly.
Brian
It's his adventure that catches him out, he drives forward with backs of pace and skill. In midfield it's part and parcel, IMO he'd cause more trouble going forward so I'm glad he's at the back against us.
But I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up in midfield a "Gerard" type without the gangsters.
It's his adventure that catches him out, he drives forward with backs of pace and skill. In midfield it's part and parcel, IMO he'd cause more trouble going forward so I'm glad he's at the back against us.
But I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up in midfield a "Gerard" type without the gangsters.
The mantra for Saturday must be to attack Chelsea, they are most vulnerable at the back but still have obvious quality in midfield and up front. We need to be in their faces and show the spirit and determination that took Man City by suprise.
I can't believe the money they paid to bring a player like Luiz over here.
At first I thought they were after Luisao or whatever his name is, the big baldy one who looked a good player against us.
I coudn't believe my eyes when they paraded sideshow Bob. Can see Vic or Denis giving him a torrid time.
At first I thought they were after Luisao or whatever his name is, the big baldy one who looked a good player against us.
I coudn't believe my eyes when they paraded sideshow Bob. Can see Vic or Denis giving him a torrid time.
We defended - quite sensibly - against City. That included Donovan and - yes - Drenthe tracking back effectively. As the game went on these two got forward effectively as well. Remember the goal.
We will be set up to defend against the Chelsk - particularly as the wayward Spaniard will be feared. Pienaar will start which is no bad thing, but Neville is more likely to figure than Drenthe.
I wonder what our attack strategy - if any - will be? I hope team selection and/or prompt use of subs relieves my pessimism. Hope?
We will be set up to defend against the Chelsk - particularly as the wayward Spaniard will be feared. Pienaar will start which is no bad thing, but Neville is more likely to figure than Drenthe.
I wonder what our attack strategy - if any - will be? I hope team selection and/or prompt use of subs relieves my pessimism. Hope?
Confident prediction of team for Chelsea game:-
Howard; Hibbert, Heitinga, Distin, Baines;
Neville;
Donovan, Gibson, Pienaar;
Fellaini;
Stracqualursi.
Subs: Jelavic for Stracq (60), Anichebe for Hibbert (70), Drenthe for Hibbert (80).
Any takers?
Howard; Hibbert, Heitinga, Distin, Baines;
Neville;
Donovan, Gibson, Pienaar;
Fellaini;
Stracqualursi.
Subs: Jelavic for Stracq (60), Anichebe for Hibbert (70), Drenthe for Hibbert (80).
Any takers?
A similar team and attitude to the City game could see us get the points again.
Meant Drenthe for Donovan!
Phil,
I think you have pretty got Moyes negative predictability to a tee. However, he will do well to sneak Hibbo back on after he's been subbed !
I think you have pretty got Moyes negative predictability to a tee. However, he will do well to sneak Hibbo back on after he's been subbed !
What`s negative about that line-up?With Tim likely to miss out through injury,Felli would be natural choice for `forward/midfielder`if Davey sticks to his preferred 4-1-3-1-1 foemation
We should expect at least a point out of Chelsea. .
We should expect at least a point out of Chelsea. .
Mind you Mike - you wouldn't put it past him would you? Saying that, Hibbo is still a good - and improving - player so I'd rather have two of him than him and the captain.
We need to Fellaini in his rightful position for starts. I don't want to see that team Phil, no offence. Although I like your thinking on the subs!
Nailed on DM will play Neville, Cahill, Saha......oh he's gone :-)
Joking apart, I donj't share the confidence of others here. I always hope for the best and for (literally) once this season that hope was rewarded by a decent performance against Citteh. However, I knew, I just knew, we would fall back against Wigan.
Watch out for another defensive display, with DM hoping to get a goal from a set piece, pack the midfield with defenders, whilst making a few bizarre and / or too little too late substitutions when Chelski go 2 up. Someone on this thread suggested Chelski were crap because Manure had a go once 3-0 down (and getting at least one dodgy penalty) so (ergo) we should beat them. This is from the Monty Python School of Logical Positivism.
He should start with Anichebe and Jelavic, with Straq to come on when Jelavic or Anichebe tire. Drenthe and Donovan wide with Fellaini and Pienaar in the middle.
Hibbert and Baines with Heitinga and Distin
Have a proper go. Ah well I can but dream.
Joking apart, I donj't share the confidence of others here. I always hope for the best and for (literally) once this season that hope was rewarded by a decent performance against Citteh. However, I knew, I just knew, we would fall back against Wigan.
Watch out for another defensive display, with DM hoping to get a goal from a set piece, pack the midfield with defenders, whilst making a few bizarre and / or too little too late substitutions when Chelski go 2 up. Someone on this thread suggested Chelski were crap because Manure had a go once 3-0 down (and getting at least one dodgy penalty) so (ergo) we should beat them. This is from the Monty Python School of Logical Positivism.
He should start with Anichebe and Jelavic, with Straq to come on when Jelavic or Anichebe tire. Drenthe and Donovan wide with Fellaini and Pienaar in the middle.
Hibbert and Baines with Heitinga and Distin
Have a proper go. Ah well I can but dream.
The Chelski defence looked to be struggling but they missed Cole and Terry even though Cahill started. Having said that, they were up against Manure who can cut apart any team and this Moyes squad couldn't cut through paper at the moment.
My feeling is that the Chelski manager is way over-rated and will be on his way at the end of the season ? the Big Ruskie won't stand for average performances.
As mentioned, Everton have performed a little better against the better clubs but, all-in-all, we have still performed poorly as an attacking force thanks to Moyes and his system. We can all hope that Pienaar, Jelavic and the return of Coleman and Jagielka will give us a good end to the season but somehow it is doubtful. So many times we have thought we may be turning a corner only to fall flat in the very next game.
Sure, defensively we haven't done badly but drawn games against crap teams are no use at all and that is why we will probably finish where we are now.
My feeling is that the Chelski manager is way over-rated and will be on his way at the end of the season ? the Big Ruskie won't stand for average performances.
As mentioned, Everton have performed a little better against the better clubs but, all-in-all, we have still performed poorly as an attacking force thanks to Moyes and his system. We can all hope that Pienaar, Jelavic and the return of Coleman and Jagielka will give us a good end to the season but somehow it is doubtful. So many times we have thought we may be turning a corner only to fall flat in the very next game.
Sure, defensively we haven't done badly but drawn games against crap teams are no use at all and that is why we will probably finish where we are now.
I think Rodwell will be in for Cahill. If that was the case, that still looks a decent team for me ? anything other than Neville in midfield. I can't take anymore of him, he is shit. I'm throwing myself of the Top Balcony if he starts.
Richard, I hope for your sake that Jags isn't fit. Any lemming impression would have you volleyed + hoofed 300 foot back into your seat.
Richard, aim for BK when you jump :-)
Nothing to think about: Moyes ( and the team ) either approach it like City and Fulham or do a Wigan. We wait and see who turns up.
All this publicity about Rodwell in full training is merely a diversionary ploy meant to confuse AVB even more than he already is. Because it is set in that block of stone on Moyes's shoulders the team to start will be the same as that starting at Wigan.
Barring injury and state of the game, after 10 minutes of instruction on how to kick a ball, our first sub will enter the fray at the 61 minutes 35 seconds mark. That sub will be a defender while another defender will move forward.
Should we be winning in the last 10 minutes, another defender will be thrown on. If we are losing, our lone attacker will be replaced with someone who may or may not be a real striker.
Should by some kind of miracle we win or draw the game Moyes will be fulsome in praising his 'lads' for sticking to his brilliant tactics.
Should we lose. he will point the finger at everything from the referee to divine intervention. Not a single word of self criticism will pass his lips.
Nonetheless I will be white knuckle clinging and hoping that, despite the Moyesiah's best efforts, we can pull this one out of the bag. COYB
Barring injury and state of the game, after 10 minutes of instruction on how to kick a ball, our first sub will enter the fray at the 61 minutes 35 seconds mark. That sub will be a defender while another defender will move forward.
Should we be winning in the last 10 minutes, another defender will be thrown on. If we are losing, our lone attacker will be replaced with someone who may or may not be a real striker.
Should by some kind of miracle we win or draw the game Moyes will be fulsome in praising his 'lads' for sticking to his brilliant tactics.
Should we lose. he will point the finger at everything from the referee to divine intervention. Not a single word of self criticism will pass his lips.
Nonetheless I will be white knuckle clinging and hoping that, despite the Moyesiah's best efforts, we can pull this one out of the bag. COYB
Good news about Rodders but he won't start against Chelski. Will probably be the same 4 across the middle. The big question is: Who will play alongside (or behind) Jelavic? It may well be Big Vic now that he has notched another goal.
The loanees, Drenthe and Straqs will be kept in reserve as Donovan plays his last 2 games. Can't see Moyes changing his 4-4-1-1 strategy.
The loanees, Drenthe and Straqs will be kept in reserve as Donovan plays his last 2 games. Can't see Moyes changing his 4-4-1-1 strategy.
Dick Fearon - brilliant mate!! Sums up the status quo perfectly.
For a Moyes type of centre-forward Jelly showed a strange tendency to drift into the penalty box. He will need a few lessons from Davy to get those ridiculous ideas out of his head.
Repeat this mantra, I must aim for the corner flag, I must aim for the corner flag, I must aim for the corner flag.
Under pain of death do not go into areas that could remotely lead to a direct attempt on goal. Except that is, when we are defender a corner or free kick.
Repeat this mantra, I must aim for the corner flag, I must aim for the corner flag, I must aim for the corner flag.
Under pain of death do not go into areas that could remotely lead to a direct attempt on goal. Except that is, when we are defender a corner or free kick.
Richard Dodd: With Tim likely to miss out through injury, Felli would be natural choice for `forward/midfielder`.
There's nothing natural about Felli in that position. I was surprised reading these pages after Wigan that people viewed the Cahill/Neville sub as negative. It wasn't negative, the structure and attacking intent stayed the same.
It was just horrific in any other sense ? taking Fellaini out of a position he was doing well in and putting Neville there instead. I don't think it's unfair to say that Neville is a festering pile of shite.
So, no, Felli isn't the natural choice for that position for two good reasons.
There's nothing natural about Felli in that position. I was surprised reading these pages after Wigan that people viewed the Cahill/Neville sub as negative. It wasn't negative, the structure and attacking intent stayed the same.
It was just horrific in any other sense ? taking Fellaini out of a position he was doing well in and putting Neville there instead. I don't think it's unfair to say that Neville is a festering pile of shite.
So, no, Felli isn't the natural choice for that position for two good reasons.
If Dour Davey has another tactical disaster like the Wigan debacle we will get well and truely spanked!
I predict a draw however as Moyes will love being back to this kind of game where the main focus will be to keep it tight and no one really expects us to do anything more than that.
I predict a draw however as Moyes will love being back to this kind of game where the main focus will be to keep it tight and no one really expects us to do anything more than that.
Stevenson (245) - I was writing a reply to Fearon (237), but saw your post to him and his reply.
"Brilliant" was it? A brilliant fucking disgrace of a post is what it was.
Hopefully for you two, we'll lose so you can feel good about yourselves. Fuck the team!
Fuck Chelsea. And fuck the both of you.
COYB
Kenwright OUT!
"Brilliant" was it? A brilliant fucking disgrace of a post is what it was.
Hopefully for you two, we'll lose so you can feel good about yourselves. Fuck the team!
Fuck Chelsea. And fuck the both of you.
COYB
Kenwright OUT!
James # 245, Sorry that my words upset you not because a single one of them was wrong but because I should have realised that in the eyes of his disciples, the Moyesiah is above criticism.
As you believe he is a good manager perhaps you could explain why Moyes said, 'It will take a few weeks for my players to hit their straps". They were the actual words he used. The only problem was that the season had started three weeks earlier and six games had been played..
While musing on that little gem what do you make of this verbatim statement, 'We do not play good entertaining football. or his classic, " we must score more goals because goals win games" This from arguably the most defensive negative manager in the PL.
In a growing list of his excuses or reasons you will not find the merest hint of self criticism.
Lady luck, Referees and the elements all share blame for our losses but never ever is it the fault of his tactics, training, motivation or substitutes.
Regardless what fate dumps on us and in the past 60-plus years I have seen a number of awful dumps I never once have wished for us to get beat and I strongly resent your implication of it.
As you believe he is a good manager perhaps you could explain why Moyes said, 'It will take a few weeks for my players to hit their straps". They were the actual words he used. The only problem was that the season had started three weeks earlier and six games had been played..
While musing on that little gem what do you make of this verbatim statement, 'We do not play good entertaining football. or his classic, " we must score more goals because goals win games" This from arguably the most defensive negative manager in the PL.
In a growing list of his excuses or reasons you will not find the merest hint of self criticism.
Lady luck, Referees and the elements all share blame for our losses but never ever is it the fault of his tactics, training, motivation or substitutes.
Regardless what fate dumps on us and in the past 60-plus years I have seen a number of awful dumps I never once have wished for us to get beat and I strongly resent your implication of it.
James,
Dick is right. We' ve witnessed some clowns at Goodison over the years, players and managers alike. I truly believe that Moyes, Neville and Jagielka are the most over-rated in their particular category. There may have been others equally as bad, or worse but they were shown the door pronto and not allowed to hang around like a bad smell for year after year.
Dick is right. We' ve witnessed some clowns at Goodison over the years, players and managers alike. I truly believe that Moyes, Neville and Jagielka are the most over-rated in their particular category. There may have been others equally as bad, or worse but they were shown the door pronto and not allowed to hang around like a bad smell for year after year.
Ernie @258,you are right to say Felli is wasted in that peculiarly Moyes favoured role but that wont stop him using him in that position.How else can we possibly expect to tackle the Mighty Chelski without finding a place for our own Captain Fantastic to inspire our lads `to keep it tight at the back`?
Phil, we just have to buy into Davey`s avowed priority of getting those 40 points in the bank. Going in gung-ho against Chelsea is the recipe for disaster and a point would be a massive return against such opposition.
I anticipate that we shall `cross the line` after 32 games which will provide half a dozen opportunities to try a more adventurous approach. Be patient!
I anticipate that we shall `cross the line` after 32 games which will provide half a dozen opportunities to try a more adventurous approach. Be patient!
Dick Fearon.
You be careful, mate, with all this sarcastic criticism... you do know what happened to that Danish cartoonist who took the piss out of the prophet Muhammad ....you might end up with a fatwa..... .
You be careful, mate, with all this sarcastic criticism... you do know what happened to that Danish cartoonist who took the piss out of the prophet Muhammad ....you might end up with a fatwa..... .
Ray # 313, we haven't got enough cash for a thinwa let alone a fat one.
Mr Dodd #311.
Moyes going "gung-ho" ? now that would be something to see. Anyone who has gone to Goodison, watched EFC on MotD or just had the pleasure of watching EFC on YouTube will know that Moyes would never, ever, not ever go gung-ho.
We could play United or Wrexham, Chelsea or Southport ? Mr Moyes will see the game as a point already in his hand. The Moyes man must fucking hate cup games and when I see posters talk about an attacking EFC I laugh ? that option usally kicks in about the 60-minute mark when we are losing. Oh yeah, by attacking, I mean Moyes will drop the totally fucked CF and replace him with a fit CF whispering "run the channels faster".
You're right,Dick, I wonder if we've lagged the pipes yet?
Richard, last year we had dead rubbers all the way home. Perfect opportunity for him to try something different. A bit of youth? Experiment with formation?
He did nothing of the sort.
Moyes will grind his way as high as he can and say 'job done'. 40 points means nothing.
He did nothing of the sort.
Moyes will grind his way as high as he can and say 'job done'. 40 points means nothing.
You're a total fool, James Flynn ? without any shadow of a doubt, one of the most annoying people on this site (that's not a compliment, by the way); one of the most uninformed posters on a site that is often distinguished by quality and nous.
I don't know who you think you are, telling long-time Evertonians to fuck off, who have more sense and knowledge of Everton in their little fingers than you have in your head. Needless to say, you will not apologize for your pathetic playground outbursts...
Interestingly enough, despite Dodd and others moaning about vitriol from the 'other side', it's more often than not the myopic complacent Moyessiahs who turn up the heat and volume: who can forget Tunstead's final thread and his exit for good from this site? And you too, Flynn ought to go with him with your pitifully poor knowledge of Everton and Evertonians.
I hope that Michael and Lyndon boot you off this site, unless, that is, you apologize.
I don't know who you think you are, telling long-time Evertonians to fuck off, who have more sense and knowledge of Everton in their little fingers than you have in your head. Needless to say, you will not apologize for your pathetic playground outbursts...
Interestingly enough, despite Dodd and others moaning about vitriol from the 'other side', it's more often than not the myopic complacent Moyessiahs who turn up the heat and volume: who can forget Tunstead's final thread and his exit for good from this site? And you too, Flynn ought to go with him with your pitifully poor knowledge of Everton and Evertonians.
I hope that Michael and Lyndon boot you off this site, unless, that is, you apologize.
I should have added and lack of respect to the end of that last post
Mr Dodd
I am sorry to inform you but Mr Moyes has not got any idea how to attack.
24 games played 24 goals scored, don't tell me this is a one off season as we are on target to equal the worst scoring record in our history and that is 38 goals, who holds this record as manager, Moyes.
Lets attack anyone who comes to Goodison, Man Utd, Chelsea and lets through Stoke in as I never saw one shot on target against them this season.
Paul Wharton
I am sorry to inform you but Mr Moyes has not got any idea how to attack.
24 games played 24 goals scored, don't tell me this is a one off season as we are on target to equal the worst scoring record in our history and that is 38 goals, who holds this record as manager, Moyes.
Lets attack anyone who comes to Goodison, Man Utd, Chelsea and lets through Stoke in as I never saw one shot on target against them this season.
Paul Wharton
Thanks, Paul.
A timely reminder that if your intent is to use these pages to abuse your fellow Evertonians for expressing their opinions about Everton matters... well, just saying.
The line is fine but Mr Flynn appears to have crossed it... again.
A timely reminder that if your intent is to use these pages to abuse your fellow Evertonians for expressing their opinions about Everton matters... well, just saying.
The line is fine but Mr Flynn appears to have crossed it... again.
Gung-ho? Like playing Drenthe from the start?
How can you start him against one of the best defences in the league (successfully) then drop him against one of the worst? Any fucking wonder we threw 2 points away - sorry it would have been 3 if they'd scored in the last minute, a disaster which could have happened at almost any stage.
With players like Heitinga, Fellaini and Baines in our team - who would grace any Prem or top continental side - rootling around in the detritus for 40 points is an insult.
How can you start him against one of the best defences in the league (successfully) then drop him against one of the worst? Any fucking wonder we threw 2 points away - sorry it would have been 3 if they'd scored in the last minute, a disaster which could have happened at almost any stage.
With players like Heitinga, Fellaini and Baines in our team - who would grace any Prem or top continental side - rootling around in the detritus for 40 points is an insult.
His language may not have been the best, but James Flynns statement just seems to show a bit of passion to me - which has been sadly missed of late. Perhaps he's just pissed off with the constant negativity on every single thread and Dicks post sent him over the edge.
Perhaps if the record was changed James wouldn't be shouting change the fucking record.
Cue 'Well are you happy with the dire football the Moysiah serves up...' yadayadayada
Perhaps if the record was changed James wouldn't be shouting change the fucking record.
Cue 'Well are you happy with the dire football the Moysiah serves up...' yadayadayada
His language may not have been the best, but James Flynns statement just seems to show a bit of passion to me - which has been sadly missed of late. Perhaps he's just pissed off with the constant negativity on every single thread and Dicks post sent him over the edge.
Perhaps if the record was changed James wouldn't be shouting change the fucking record.
Cue 'Well are you happy with the dire football the Moysiah serves up...' yadayadayada
Perhaps if the record was changed James wouldn't be shouting change the fucking record.
Cue 'Well are you happy with the dire football the Moysiah serves up...' yadayadayada
GJ, there has never been a lack of passion here amongst evertonians.....which isn't something you could level at our manager and players who seem to take every opportunity to tell us how we are taking knives to a gunfight and talking down our chances, as if we don't even deserve to grace the same field as some of the richer teams.
Only in ONE game this season - the last one against city - did the players even seem like they wanted to win the game and to me that smacks of Moyes risk-averse mentality rubbing off on our players. For a guy who is paid £3.5M / year, I expect better motivation than that.
Your last sentence says that you know exactly why people here sound like a broken record. The idiot in charge of picking our team seems to keep making the same mistakes every match and costing us points!
I've still not read one single defence of the man and his substitution of Neville for Cahill last week. I could care less if it was a one off, but this kind of poor judgement he makes almost every week.
He obviously has the players at his disposal to compete with and beat the likes of Man City and their billions, given a good slice of luck. Why can't we compete against the blackburns and wigans of this world? We even struggled to score against mighty tamworth such is the paucity of the attacking threat our team poses.
Only in ONE game this season - the last one against city - did the players even seem like they wanted to win the game and to me that smacks of Moyes risk-averse mentality rubbing off on our players. For a guy who is paid £3.5M / year, I expect better motivation than that.
Your last sentence says that you know exactly why people here sound like a broken record. The idiot in charge of picking our team seems to keep making the same mistakes every match and costing us points!
I've still not read one single defence of the man and his substitution of Neville for Cahill last week. I could care less if it was a one off, but this kind of poor judgement he makes almost every week.
He obviously has the players at his disposal to compete with and beat the likes of Man City and their billions, given a good slice of luck. Why can't we compete against the blackburns and wigans of this world? We even struggled to score against mighty tamworth such is the paucity of the attacking threat our team poses.
Wayne, somehow we've won 8 league games despite only trying to win one. Ooh, could you imagine if we just tried to win them all?!!
I won't defend his Neville substitution. I sent a text to a fellow blue when it happened saying 'scandalous'. However, I will say I also resent the same text when Anichebe came on instead of Drenthe. I guess Moyes got that one right. Either way, I'm not Moyes' biggest fan anyway, far from it.
To put my original post into context, James flipped at Dick and I see where he's coming from (albeit not as 'enthusiastically' shall we say). Dicks post smacks of negativity and we all know come Monday if we're beaten he (or insert 50 names here) will be on here saying 'I told you so'.
At which, and I never thought I would find myself quoting Del Amitri, 'the needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before'.
I won't defend his Neville substitution. I sent a text to a fellow blue when it happened saying 'scandalous'. However, I will say I also resent the same text when Anichebe came on instead of Drenthe. I guess Moyes got that one right. Either way, I'm not Moyes' biggest fan anyway, far from it.
To put my original post into context, James flipped at Dick and I see where he's coming from (albeit not as 'enthusiastically' shall we say). Dicks post smacks of negativity and we all know come Monday if we're beaten he (or insert 50 names here) will be on here saying 'I told you so'.
At which, and I never thought I would find myself quoting Del Amitri, 'the needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before'.
Dick (237) - Moyes might not be here for the Chelsea game.
I'll explain.
Ok, Cappello has just told the FA to stick their job up their arse.
Harry 'runny fried-egg eyes' Redknapp has just got a 'not guilty' due to his brilliant defence - "But oim a really noice bloke Mary Poppins innit guv'nor".
This frees Harry up to take over at England (a job no real cockney could turn down surely).
This would leave Spurs without a manager.
Fantasy bit..
Spurs (believing the ridiculously positive press David Moyes has received over the years) 'poach' him from us (giving us 5 mill compo or..something).
They eventually discover he is nothing more than a staggeringly over-cautious Scottish P.E teacher but...too fucking late.
We get someone (ANYONE) prepared to play two strikers at home and get rid of Phil fucking Neville.
Everton 3 Chelsea 1
Curry and chips all round!
(well...they can't stop me dreaming)
I'll explain.
Ok, Cappello has just told the FA to stick their job up their arse.
Harry 'runny fried-egg eyes' Redknapp has just got a 'not guilty' due to his brilliant defence - "But oim a really noice bloke Mary Poppins innit guv'nor".
This frees Harry up to take over at England (a job no real cockney could turn down surely).
This would leave Spurs without a manager.
Fantasy bit..
Spurs (believing the ridiculously positive press David Moyes has received over the years) 'poach' him from us (giving us 5 mill compo or..something).
They eventually discover he is nothing more than a staggeringly over-cautious Scottish P.E teacher but...too fucking late.
We get someone (ANYONE) prepared to play two strikers at home and get rid of Phil fucking Neville.
Everton 3 Chelsea 1
Curry and chips all round!
(well...they can't stop me dreaming)
Eugene #448, I'm going back a bit here but does the name Ian Buchan ring a bell? He was not one of your average school PE teachers, Ian lectured on that subject in a Scottish university.
Everton hired him as a stand in manager of sorts. He had the squad so fit they were dancing on air. Up to Xmas that year, we were running all over our opponents and reached the top or near it in the old 1st Division.
Sadly, Ian's lack of football nous kicked in and we had a woeful second half of the season.
As for Moyes's next move, I think it will be to a lower division club with dreams of grandeur.
Everton hired him as a stand in manager of sorts. He had the squad so fit they were dancing on air. Up to Xmas that year, we were running all over our opponents and reached the top or near it in the old 1st Division.
Sadly, Ian's lack of football nous kicked in and we had a woeful second half of the season.
As for Moyes's next move, I think it will be to a lower division club with dreams of grandeur.
I get James Flynn. He`s full of optimism, always looking forward to the next game. In many ways, he`s your archetypal Yank. Positivity seems to be in his DNA.
What is it with these people who come on talking about the "Myopic complacent Moyesiahs" ? who are they referring to? These constant references to Moyesophiles? ? what's it all about? If I didnt know better, I would see it as weak people trying to gain acceptance... an attempt to curry favour with the "gang".
The notion that there is a group of people who "worship Moyes" or "think he can do no wrong" is a staggeringly stupid one and can only REALLY be subscribed to by the staggeringly stupid.
TW has a reputation for being negative. I suspect it's one that MK and LL would prefer not to have. However, the direction the site takes is in the hands of its membership. TW's reputation for been overly negative has to have been earned by its membership. I`m on here 5-6 days a week and I swear there are regular posters ? a considerable number of them ? who I have yet to see say anything good or positive about our club.
It's usual for a percentage of any group of people to be negative but they would normally accept that others have a more positive outlook... but look at these pages? Thread after thread of people using this divisive rhetoric to put down anyone who says anything remotely positive.
Paul Ferry waving this imaginary card asking for James Flynn to be banned was a low point for me, but it got me thinking. Where are all those positive people who once brought a level of balance to this site?
I didn't see the particular thread Paul Ferry refers to as Ian Tunstead "last post", but what I did see on a regular basis was a group of angry people, usually the same ones, rounding on him, calling him all the names under the sun. I saw genuine anger at somebody who`s only crime, it seemed to me, was his determination to be positive. It would come as no surprise if I heard he cracked in the end and lashed out.
You are perfectly entitled to shoot me down in flames for this, but I firmly believe people who want to offer a different opinion to the "in crowd" are gradually being hounded away. Sure, you could argue these things cut both ways, but do they? Flick through a couple of threads, read the divisive comments for yourselves. count the guilty posts, it's not just slightly tilted one way ? it's a fucken landslide.
MK and LL bring a different product and unlike some of the bland rose-coloured specs alternatives, YOU get to steer the ship. So which direction do you want to take it ? I ask because although some people like the exchanges (Kevin Hudson), I think they are in a rapidly diminshing minority. Kevin is signing off soon and I predict many future threads will go uncontested. I truly believe that if the divisive rhetoric, the calls for bans, and the anger towards people with the more positive views continues, the angry people will be left with the place for themselves... Blackkipper?
I really hope the moderators leave this post up there, if only to give others the opportunity to show me I`m wrong.
James Flynn is for me a breath of fresh air, he is relatively new to our club, but he`s full of enthusiasm and hope, I suspect the relentless negativity has come as a bit of a culture shock to him. What he percieved as white flag waving on this thread ? four days before a match even kicks off ? has made him blow his stack. He knows he can't go around telling people to fuck off and I hope he comes back and offers an apology.
God knows the place needs him.
What is it with these people who come on talking about the "Myopic complacent Moyesiahs" ? who are they referring to? These constant references to Moyesophiles? ? what's it all about? If I didnt know better, I would see it as weak people trying to gain acceptance... an attempt to curry favour with the "gang".
The notion that there is a group of people who "worship Moyes" or "think he can do no wrong" is a staggeringly stupid one and can only REALLY be subscribed to by the staggeringly stupid.
TW has a reputation for being negative. I suspect it's one that MK and LL would prefer not to have. However, the direction the site takes is in the hands of its membership. TW's reputation for been overly negative has to have been earned by its membership. I`m on here 5-6 days a week and I swear there are regular posters ? a considerable number of them ? who I have yet to see say anything good or positive about our club.
It's usual for a percentage of any group of people to be negative but they would normally accept that others have a more positive outlook... but look at these pages? Thread after thread of people using this divisive rhetoric to put down anyone who says anything remotely positive.
Paul Ferry waving this imaginary card asking for James Flynn to be banned was a low point for me, but it got me thinking. Where are all those positive people who once brought a level of balance to this site?
I didn't see the particular thread Paul Ferry refers to as Ian Tunstead "last post", but what I did see on a regular basis was a group of angry people, usually the same ones, rounding on him, calling him all the names under the sun. I saw genuine anger at somebody who`s only crime, it seemed to me, was his determination to be positive. It would come as no surprise if I heard he cracked in the end and lashed out.
You are perfectly entitled to shoot me down in flames for this, but I firmly believe people who want to offer a different opinion to the "in crowd" are gradually being hounded away. Sure, you could argue these things cut both ways, but do they? Flick through a couple of threads, read the divisive comments for yourselves. count the guilty posts, it's not just slightly tilted one way ? it's a fucken landslide.
MK and LL bring a different product and unlike some of the bland rose-coloured specs alternatives, YOU get to steer the ship. So which direction do you want to take it ? I ask because although some people like the exchanges (Kevin Hudson), I think they are in a rapidly diminshing minority. Kevin is signing off soon and I predict many future threads will go uncontested. I truly believe that if the divisive rhetoric, the calls for bans, and the anger towards people with the more positive views continues, the angry people will be left with the place for themselves... Blackkipper?
I really hope the moderators leave this post up there, if only to give others the opportunity to show me I`m wrong.
James Flynn is for me a breath of fresh air, he is relatively new to our club, but he`s full of enthusiasm and hope, I suspect the relentless negativity has come as a bit of a culture shock to him. What he percieved as white flag waving on this thread ? four days before a match even kicks off ? has made him blow his stack. He knows he can't go around telling people to fuck off and I hope he comes back and offers an apology.
God knows the place needs him.
"James Flynn ? without any shadow of a doubt, one of the most annoying people on this site"... Well that's what you get James for going against the opinions of the great Paul Ferry. Shame on you for those evil positive thoughts.
Big deal Paul he swore a bit. I'm sure people are big enough to take it. I'm far more offended by your patronising, authoritarian demeanor.
As for the game on Saturday, I'm looking forward to it. Chelsea hate coming to Goodison and I reckon another upset is on the cards.
Big deal Paul he swore a bit. I'm sure people are big enough to take it. I'm far more offended by your patronising, authoritarian demeanor.
As for the game on Saturday, I'm looking forward to it. Chelsea hate coming to Goodison and I reckon another upset is on the cards.
Aye Dave nice call to arms.
Are you suggesting we should all show a degree of positivity just for the hell of it? In the name of fictitious balance?
What value does that add to genuine criticism of the current regime? Or genuine debate for that matter?
There may be an obviously logical reason why the most astute website on all things Everton has a tinge of negativity. Could it possibly be that things are not that rosy and that the bright people see it? Not only do they see it, they can see the managerial reasons for it ? and it's the same mistakes they've been complaining about for ten years.
But of course, according to you and others, this is not ultimately our esteemed manager's fault... any slight criticism you do offer against him is ultimately always vindicated by Kenwright.
That's why the likes of Ian Tunstead was roundly criticised ? not as you suggest for simply being positive. For being bloody minded in the extreme in regards to defending Moyes.
It was his opinion people attacked, not his positivity. To portray him as some sort of grass-skirt wearing martyr is disingenuous. I remember his continual posturing that no-one on here had ever beaten him in an argument ? except one Dave Wilson.
That's not the sign of someone who's bullied. That's the sign of someone whos deluded and fails to appreciate counter argument.
The other day I was called self-righteous. Of course. So is everyone on this or any other site. I've yet to see someone post an opinion which they think is wrong.
So let's leave the debate the way it is Dave. And let anyone who breaks the rules suffer the consequences. God knows, I've had to.
Are you suggesting we should all show a degree of positivity just for the hell of it? In the name of fictitious balance?
What value does that add to genuine criticism of the current regime? Or genuine debate for that matter?
There may be an obviously logical reason why the most astute website on all things Everton has a tinge of negativity. Could it possibly be that things are not that rosy and that the bright people see it? Not only do they see it, they can see the managerial reasons for it ? and it's the same mistakes they've been complaining about for ten years.
But of course, according to you and others, this is not ultimately our esteemed manager's fault... any slight criticism you do offer against him is ultimately always vindicated by Kenwright.
That's why the likes of Ian Tunstead was roundly criticised ? not as you suggest for simply being positive. For being bloody minded in the extreme in regards to defending Moyes.
It was his opinion people attacked, not his positivity. To portray him as some sort of grass-skirt wearing martyr is disingenuous. I remember his continual posturing that no-one on here had ever beaten him in an argument ? except one Dave Wilson.
That's not the sign of someone who's bullied. That's the sign of someone whos deluded and fails to appreciate counter argument.
The other day I was called self-righteous. Of course. So is everyone on this or any other site. I've yet to see someone post an opinion which they think is wrong.
So let's leave the debate the way it is Dave. And let anyone who breaks the rules suffer the consequences. God knows, I've had to.
Dave Wilson (644) - Brilliant post and a million times better than I could ever put it.
Dave Wilson ? stop suggesting people who critisise Moyes only do it because they like moaning. Has it crossed your mind that it's because they are sick to death of the negative tactics and style of our manager?
To make things worse the likes of Dodd, Tunstead patronise us all by trying to paint a pretty picture. For me they are on a wind up.
You are close to that line, you constantly defend Moyes, you couldn't even bring yourself to say what a terrible tactic it was for bringing on Neville for Cahill. It seems you are prepared to defend the indefensible. What is your motive?
And don't insult people's intelligence by suggesting people are complaining "to be part of the crowd".
Also, stop trying to suggest moderators are biased against the likes of yourself: "I really hope the moderators leave this post up there, if only to give others the opportunity to show me I`m wrong." Why write this? Do you feel picked on? Or are you hopelessly trying to back up your point that this is negative website.
To make things worse the likes of Dodd, Tunstead patronise us all by trying to paint a pretty picture. For me they are on a wind up.
You are close to that line, you constantly defend Moyes, you couldn't even bring yourself to say what a terrible tactic it was for bringing on Neville for Cahill. It seems you are prepared to defend the indefensible. What is your motive?
And don't insult people's intelligence by suggesting people are complaining "to be part of the crowd".
Also, stop trying to suggest moderators are biased against the likes of yourself: "I really hope the moderators leave this post up there, if only to give others the opportunity to show me I`m wrong." Why write this? Do you feel picked on? Or are you hopelessly trying to back up your point that this is negative website.
Dave, a couple of points:
1) There is no "in crowd". People post because they want to post and think they have something to say. People who don't post either don't want to or have nothing to contribute. There's certainly been an upswing of posts critical of the regime this season, but guess what: I think even you might agree that there are more people who are feeling critical of the regime this season.
2) As long as people are respectful of our rules and of eachother, their posts remain and they can post freely, no matter what viewpoint they have. Where we intervene is when they start to lose it and get abusive. Jimmy Flynn (#263) being a case in point.
3) I do find this perennial need to silo views into "positive" and "negative" irritating at best and totally pointless. I believe and hope most people write what they feel ? nothing more and nothing less. And I wish people would respond without resorting to these ridiculous labels.
Against that precept, there are some, and you are one, who write deliberately to "wind up" other posters. While that may be fun to you and your mates, it's probably lost on everyone else, and really goes against the genuine exchange of views and information that we are promoting.
The perennial problem seems to be an unwillingness to learn, and a willingness only to show that you are right, no matter what. This comes with the territory in that those who post most frequently are most likely to hold the strongest views, and are the least likely to bend to other opinions. If anything, I think that is the biggest challenge and the biggest weakness we have because no-one wants to lose face.
I thought at one time we could embrace literally all shades of opinion but I'm increasingly beginning to doubt that. For example, we come from a position where ALL aspects of Everton FC are up for discussion, dissection, analysis, criticism, whatever you want to call it. But there are some who clearly feel there are no-go areas that we as fans should not, or have no right to, venture into. We will never see eye-to-eye with those folk, I fear, and they tend to be OUR biggest critics.
Let me say again, ALL views are welcome: just please don't resort to abusing each other by way of getting those views across. Thanks to the great majority of you who post with that spirit in mind.
1) There is no "in crowd". People post because they want to post and think they have something to say. People who don't post either don't want to or have nothing to contribute. There's certainly been an upswing of posts critical of the regime this season, but guess what: I think even you might agree that there are more people who are feeling critical of the regime this season.
2) As long as people are respectful of our rules and of eachother, their posts remain and they can post freely, no matter what viewpoint they have. Where we intervene is when they start to lose it and get abusive. Jimmy Flynn (#263) being a case in point.
3) I do find this perennial need to silo views into "positive" and "negative" irritating at best and totally pointless. I believe and hope most people write what they feel ? nothing more and nothing less. And I wish people would respond without resorting to these ridiculous labels.
Against that precept, there are some, and you are one, who write deliberately to "wind up" other posters. While that may be fun to you and your mates, it's probably lost on everyone else, and really goes against the genuine exchange of views and information that we are promoting.
The perennial problem seems to be an unwillingness to learn, and a willingness only to show that you are right, no matter what. This comes with the territory in that those who post most frequently are most likely to hold the strongest views, and are the least likely to bend to other opinions. If anything, I think that is the biggest challenge and the biggest weakness we have because no-one wants to lose face.
I thought at one time we could embrace literally all shades of opinion but I'm increasingly beginning to doubt that. For example, we come from a position where ALL aspects of Everton FC are up for discussion, dissection, analysis, criticism, whatever you want to call it. But there are some who clearly feel there are no-go areas that we as fans should not, or have no right to, venture into. We will never see eye-to-eye with those folk, I fear, and they tend to be OUR biggest critics.
Let me say again, ALL views are welcome: just please don't resort to abusing each other by way of getting those views across. Thanks to the great majority of you who post with that spirit in mind.
I'm very negative ? it goes back longer than Kenwright but I just can't get over how badly we've been run for 25 years and still people defend the board. Football stinks as a whole and justice, Terry, Redknapp, Barton... Refereeing, 5:15 kick-offs, Sunday games, no wingers, parking the bus against Manchester fuckin City, no tactics, no plan for the future, Adam Johnson saying it wasn't a dive, Shearer kicking Lennon in the head and getting away with it.
Biggest thing pissing me off presently, not seeing Barkley play despite knowing he'll be gone in 2 years.
Yes, I blame Moyes, the Board is total shit, but play attacking football... and, if you buy a striker, play him on his debut ? fuck me he played Jags and Neville straight away and in midfield!
Oh sorry... not sure what happened. I want to say Moyes has won 3 manager of year awards; his fellow managers can't be wrong and Big Vic is next deigns, we've done fantastic beaten Tamworth and Fulham and got a great chance of winning league...
Heitinga is world class and should be captain cos he epitomises our club motto. Coyb
Biggest thing pissing me off presently, not seeing Barkley play despite knowing he'll be gone in 2 years.
Yes, I blame Moyes, the Board is total shit, but play attacking football... and, if you buy a striker, play him on his debut ? fuck me he played Jags and Neville straight away and in midfield!
Oh sorry... not sure what happened. I want to say Moyes has won 3 manager of year awards; his fellow managers can't be wrong and Big Vic is next deigns, we've done fantastic beaten Tamworth and Fulham and got a great chance of winning league...
Heitinga is world class and should be captain cos he epitomises our club motto. Coyb
Peter, ha ha. I'm off to bed in a happier mood after reading that.
Dave, I hope the polar opposites all stay, because, as you say, debates could end up being uncontested, and that is not going to be any fun for anyone.
Tommy Coleman, while I agree that Dave does defend Moyes to the hilt, I think you'll find he may have mentioned the abomination of THAT substitution on another thread.
On the Tunstead debacle, I think many posters felt bullied by him more than the other way around. His responses were usually personal, rather than based on the issue and opinion, and if he decided he couldn't take the site anymore, then we don't need him.
Tommy Coleman, while I agree that Dave does defend Moyes to the hilt, I think you'll find he may have mentioned the abomination of THAT substitution on another thread.
On the Tunstead debacle, I think many posters felt bullied by him more than the other way around. His responses were usually personal, rather than based on the issue and opinion, and if he decided he couldn't take the site anymore, then we don't need him.
Dave,
On a user-driven site malleable to the shifting tides steered by the good ship Everton, ToffeeWeb?s pervading zeitgeist is inextricably anchored to its fortunes.
There is a healthy dialogue to be had, because there is traction on both sides of the well-trodden themes. At a conservative estimate, I would suggest that the ?Kenwright Out,? debate sees probably 85% favouring his removal.
On the other hand, there is a more spirited debate when it comes to the ?Moyes Out,? discussion. Here, (on ToffeeWeb) I would posit (again in an unscientific guesstimate) that there is somewhere in the region of 70% calling for his departure. Although I think that number drops significantly among the regular match-going faithful.
?But which still leaves at least a compelling 30% to argue the toss in favour of the gaffer here.
In stating the obvious, there are two sides to every story, and both make salient points.
Ciaran for example, indicates that there are people who have been whining about Moyes for the last ten years; and it is fair to say that there are a number of good reasons for them to do so.
For someone of my persuasion however, the predictably-obvious rebuttal is that the last ten years have seen us produce the most consistent league returns in the Premier League era.
Ciaran could then justifiably come back with comparisons to teams of the 80s, the 60s, or even the late 20s-early 30s, as an indication of what Evertonians fundamentally aspire to. Or simply make a strong, topical case concerning Moyes?s handling of the squad, the implicit philosophy behind the current playing style, or plausibly call for an injection of new ideas.
Bottom line: Moyes has neither spectacularly fucked-up, but nor does he walk on water.
Therefore the debate will run because there is nothing to clinch it either way.
Dave, I applaud you for widening the debate. Like you, my instinct suggests that there are some who may have turned their backs on the website, but in my experience of ToffeeWeb, far from being peremptory, the scope is there for anyone to have their say, regardless of which side of any particular fence they happen to sit on.
On a user-driven site malleable to the shifting tides steered by the good ship Everton, ToffeeWeb?s pervading zeitgeist is inextricably anchored to its fortunes.
There is a healthy dialogue to be had, because there is traction on both sides of the well-trodden themes. At a conservative estimate, I would suggest that the ?Kenwright Out,? debate sees probably 85% favouring his removal.
On the other hand, there is a more spirited debate when it comes to the ?Moyes Out,? discussion. Here, (on ToffeeWeb) I would posit (again in an unscientific guesstimate) that there is somewhere in the region of 70% calling for his departure. Although I think that number drops significantly among the regular match-going faithful.
?But which still leaves at least a compelling 30% to argue the toss in favour of the gaffer here.
In stating the obvious, there are two sides to every story, and both make salient points.
Ciaran for example, indicates that there are people who have been whining about Moyes for the last ten years; and it is fair to say that there are a number of good reasons for them to do so.
For someone of my persuasion however, the predictably-obvious rebuttal is that the last ten years have seen us produce the most consistent league returns in the Premier League era.
Ciaran could then justifiably come back with comparisons to teams of the 80s, the 60s, or even the late 20s-early 30s, as an indication of what Evertonians fundamentally aspire to. Or simply make a strong, topical case concerning Moyes?s handling of the squad, the implicit philosophy behind the current playing style, or plausibly call for an injection of new ideas.
Bottom line: Moyes has neither spectacularly fucked-up, but nor does he walk on water.
Therefore the debate will run because there is nothing to clinch it either way.
Dave, I applaud you for widening the debate. Like you, my instinct suggests that there are some who may have turned their backs on the website, but in my experience of ToffeeWeb, far from being peremptory, the scope is there for anyone to have their say, regardless of which side of any particular fence they happen to sit on.
Kevin, I think that's a fair assumption about ratios of opinion, except I don't think Doddy constitutes 15% of posters regarding Our Dear Leader.
As a supporter who can't afford to fly half way round the globe each week to attend Goodison, can you shine a light on what the match going crowd is like in terms of that schism? You say it is less than what we see on here. Understandable. Is there a visible or audible anti-Moyes group or sentiment at home games? I would assume that at least half of the fans that have stopped going are doing it because of him, but that is only about 3000-4000.
As a supporter who can't afford to fly half way round the globe each week to attend Goodison, can you shine a light on what the match going crowd is like in terms of that schism? You say it is less than what we see on here. Understandable. Is there a visible or audible anti-Moyes group or sentiment at home games? I would assume that at least half of the fans that have stopped going are doing it because of him, but that is only about 3000-4000.
If anyone has been moaning about the last ten years then they must have started supporting Everton before I did (1990). I've never known it so good. Sad but true.
And I agree that some of the negativity on here is over the top. But Christ.... Moyes does do some strange things! Neville for Cahill against the 'imperious' Wigan???
And I agree that some of the negativity on here is over the top. But Christ.... Moyes does do some strange things! Neville for Cahill against the 'imperious' Wigan???
Roman,
In my experience, Moyes's tactics frustrate plenty of folks at the match. But short of surveying every single member, it is nigh on impossible to arrive at a definitive number. There is however, no organised MOB, per se.
Weirdly though, the amount of people appaluding Kenwright's face on the Jumbotron was suprisingly more than the 15% figure I took a stab at here..!
(ps: Based predominantly on having spent the best part of 20 years working in the same industry as Bill, and knowing his reputation for duplicity & insincerity only too well, I can assure you that I... wasn't one of them).
In my experience, Moyes's tactics frustrate plenty of folks at the match. But short of surveying every single member, it is nigh on impossible to arrive at a definitive number. There is however, no organised MOB, per se.
Weirdly though, the amount of people appaluding Kenwright's face on the Jumbotron was suprisingly more than the 15% figure I took a stab at here..!
(ps: Based predominantly on having spent the best part of 20 years working in the same industry as Bill, and knowing his reputation for duplicity & insincerity only too well, I can assure you that I... wasn't one of them).
Ever noticed how very few mad-as-a-cut-snake, totally loony cults (scientology, Est/Landmark Education etc) embrace and/or promote negativity?
Just sayin' like.
Just sayin' like.
Kudos, Mr Hudson, kudos.
Ciaran
No I`m not suggesting everyone should show a degree of positivity. I`m not suggesting people show anything but how their true feelings at on all things Everton.
Reasons to be cheerful are rather thin on the ground at GP these days and as you and MK quite rightly point out. An increase in posts from people feeling pissed off with the situation is pretty much inevitably. we`re all choca . .but thats not my point.
The guy who has criticised Davey moyes for any length of time has a problem. He can only say Moyes is a useless, Ginger, boring twat so many times and he can only say it so many ways. but Moyes is STILL here, so what does he do ?
Many are letting their frustration cloud their judgment, they have said all they can on Moyes and rather bizzarely they have turned their anger on the people they consider "Moyes supporters"
For me some have lost track of reality.They are no longer content with having their say, they are now attempting to alienate/shout down anybody who doesnt agree with EVERY criticsm, no matter how stupid.
if you dont see EIGHT defenders on the pitch, you are an "Apologist".
If you dont interpret a statement made by Moyes as an admission of fear/ surrender/an outright lie, you are a Moysophile.
If you dont accept he got EVERY single decision wrong, then yout must think "he can do no wrong". You are one of "them" Moysiahist . .
These notions are as infantile and idiotic as the names that go with them. Is this really the level of conversation you are looking for ?
If so, I`ll leave you to it.
Tommy Coleman.
I am not singling you out, but as you have entered the debate. I`ll use your post as a perfect illustration of whst I`m talking about.
On the current Capello thread you had a say, but then half way through the debate you suddenly jumped back in spouting about the "Moyes can do no wrong squad escaping " . . Who where you referring Tommy ? What had anybody said that made you feel there is a group of people who actually think Moyes can do no wrong ? Do you really think this ficticious section of our fan base exist ?
You then go for what you percieve to be an easy target. You know that Many people believe Richard Dodds opinion of Kenwright and the way the finances are handled to be . . err naive
But what makes you think You know more about football than he does ? what gives you the right to try to shout him down and tell him to go and kick a ball against a wall ? You claim you were merely voicing "your opinion" but that not the way it came. TBH it came across very much like a school yard bully trying to look big infront of his mates by shouting fatty at the overweight kid.
For the record. Doddy wathces all of our games, you by your own admission wont . .so who do you think has a better idea of how the games have gone ?
Moyes will be gone soon Tommy, the focal point of yours frustration and anger will be taken away from you.
What will happen to the MCDNW squad then ? will they simply become fellow blues again ? or will you be angry with a group of people you have never even met forever ?
No I`m not suggesting everyone should show a degree of positivity. I`m not suggesting people show anything but how their true feelings at on all things Everton.
Reasons to be cheerful are rather thin on the ground at GP these days and as you and MK quite rightly point out. An increase in posts from people feeling pissed off with the situation is pretty much inevitably. we`re all choca . .but thats not my point.
The guy who has criticised Davey moyes for any length of time has a problem. He can only say Moyes is a useless, Ginger, boring twat so many times and he can only say it so many ways. but Moyes is STILL here, so what does he do ?
Many are letting their frustration cloud their judgment, they have said all they can on Moyes and rather bizzarely they have turned their anger on the people they consider "Moyes supporters"
For me some have lost track of reality.They are no longer content with having their say, they are now attempting to alienate/shout down anybody who doesnt agree with EVERY criticsm, no matter how stupid.
if you dont see EIGHT defenders on the pitch, you are an "Apologist".
If you dont interpret a statement made by Moyes as an admission of fear/ surrender/an outright lie, you are a Moysophile.
If you dont accept he got EVERY single decision wrong, then yout must think "he can do no wrong". You are one of "them" Moysiahist . .
These notions are as infantile and idiotic as the names that go with them. Is this really the level of conversation you are looking for ?
If so, I`ll leave you to it.
Tommy Coleman.
I am not singling you out, but as you have entered the debate. I`ll use your post as a perfect illustration of whst I`m talking about.
On the current Capello thread you had a say, but then half way through the debate you suddenly jumped back in spouting about the "Moyes can do no wrong squad escaping " . . Who where you referring Tommy ? What had anybody said that made you feel there is a group of people who actually think Moyes can do no wrong ? Do you really think this ficticious section of our fan base exist ?
You then go for what you percieve to be an easy target. You know that Many people believe Richard Dodds opinion of Kenwright and the way the finances are handled to be . . err naive
But what makes you think You know more about football than he does ? what gives you the right to try to shout him down and tell him to go and kick a ball against a wall ? You claim you were merely voicing "your opinion" but that not the way it came. TBH it came across very much like a school yard bully trying to look big infront of his mates by shouting fatty at the overweight kid.
For the record. Doddy wathces all of our games, you by your own admission wont . .so who do you think has a better idea of how the games have gone ?
Moyes will be gone soon Tommy, the focal point of yours frustration and anger will be taken away from you.
What will happen to the MCDNW squad then ? will they simply become fellow blues again ? or will you be angry with a group of people you have never even met forever ?
Eugene 448 - how about substituting (ANYONE) with Ian (two up front) Holloway and inserting another line after the reference to the Chelsea win saying something like - "followed by a 5-0 thrashing of Sam Allardyce's Blackpool in the 5th round of the FA cup."
Laurie - good call, fine with me!
Spot on Dave Wilson.
Ciaran, I was the one who called you self-righteous. It was a little petty though not entirely unprovoked.
Being self-righteous does not however mean simply that you think you are right. It's a little more than that. The first definition I found was 'confident of one's own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.'
The intolerance is particularly relevant as Dave Wilson points out with many on here refusing to take part in debate but only to wholly criticise anyone with opposing views. Stereotyping and generalisation seems especially rife when directed at the Moyes apologists. As Dave says, I know very few on here who believe that Moyes is without fault.
Being self-righteous does not however mean simply that you think you are right. It's a little more than that. The first definition I found was 'confident of one's own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.'
The intolerance is particularly relevant as Dave Wilson points out with many on here refusing to take part in debate but only to wholly criticise anyone with opposing views. Stereotyping and generalisation seems especially rife when directed at the Moyes apologists. As Dave says, I know very few on here who believe that Moyes is without fault.
Dave Wilson, #722,
That is quite the impassioned speech, and you may have fooled some with your righteous indignation; however, I recall your response to a recent mailbag post of mine that questioned Moyes's performance this season relative to his expenditure (including salaries and not simply transfer fees):
"There are too many closet Kenwright supporterrs trying desperately hard to distance him from our current plight on the pitch."
Just to spell it out, you decided against debating the key points I made and rather decided to label me as a Kenwright supporter in the face of zero evidence.
Nice try.
That is quite the impassioned speech, and you may have fooled some with your righteous indignation; however, I recall your response to a recent mailbag post of mine that questioned Moyes's performance this season relative to his expenditure (including salaries and not simply transfer fees):
"There are too many closet Kenwright supporterrs trying desperately hard to distance him from our current plight on the pitch."
Just to spell it out, you decided against debating the key points I made and rather decided to label me as a Kenwright supporter in the face of zero evidence.
Nice try.
GJ Butler (747) that's a bit personal isn't it.
I imagine his acne is bad enough without you drawing attention to it.
There's really no need.
I imagine his acne is bad enough without you drawing attention to it.
There's really no need.
Anthony Jones
Nice try? What exactly do you think I was trying? I was merely observing that, IMO, calls for bans and daily name-calling of the few remaining people who won't subscribe to every criticism will eventually result in one-sided threads going uncontested.
If you don't agree... that's okay.
If you tell me you're not a Kenwright supporter then that's okay too, but the thread where you claimed he had provided all that money for Moyes to pay top wages was months ago.
You can stop protesting.
Nice try? What exactly do you think I was trying? I was merely observing that, IMO, calls for bans and daily name-calling of the few remaining people who won't subscribe to every criticism will eventually result in one-sided threads going uncontested.
If you don't agree... that's okay.
If you tell me you're not a Kenwright supporter then that's okay too, but the thread where you claimed he had provided all that money for Moyes to pay top wages was months ago.
You can stop protesting.
Dave Wilson ? As I've said to you many times, you are one of those that will argue to death ANY critique of Moyes, all I'm doing is pointing out a fact. It's not the exaggerated "If you don't accept he got EVERY single decision wrong" it's denying that he got anything wrong at all that makes you a "Moyesiahist". The defense of him is embarrassing. That's all, that's why I question your motives. As Anthony Jones pointed out, you've done a bit of this typecasting yourself.
As for Richard Dodd, he has been posting his wind-ups on this site for about 5 years, he was banned for it once. That's why I take the piss out of him and will continue to do so while he continues with his nonsense.
And When Moyes goes, who will you argue with? You clearly enjoy it more than anyone else on this site.
As for Richard Dodd, he has been posting his wind-ups on this site for about 5 years, he was banned for it once. That's why I take the piss out of him and will continue to do so while he continues with his nonsense.
And When Moyes goes, who will you argue with? You clearly enjoy it more than anyone else on this site.
Tommy, has it EVER crossed your mind that ANYONE on here might just possibly hold views different to your goodself?
In the main, I support David Moyes because I believe that his knowledge of football in general and his players in particular is far greater than mine... and, dare I suggest it, just occasionally, greater than yours as well.
If that qualifies as a 'wind-up', I most humbly apologise!
In the main, I support David Moyes because I believe that his knowledge of football in general and his players in particular is far greater than mine... and, dare I suggest it, just occasionally, greater than yours as well.
If that qualifies as a 'wind-up', I most humbly apologise!
Here are my cards on the table:
Cons:
I sometimes get frustrated by the defensive nature of our play, I often disagree with team selection decisions and there are one or two young players I would like to see more of, in some capacity.
Pro's
Generally final league placings are dictated by salaries+wages. Everton, under Moyes, consistently seem to buck this trend with regular 8th place finishes despite a budget which should see us finishing 12th/13th.
Based on the above, I don't think there is sufficient justification for the board to sack David Moyes. Football is a results game, and chairmen will generally set targets based on final league placing rather than anything else. In this respect, David Moyes exceeds the board's expectations and has done for pretty much the last decade.
Cons:
I sometimes get frustrated by the defensive nature of our play, I often disagree with team selection decisions and there are one or two young players I would like to see more of, in some capacity.
Pro's
Generally final league placings are dictated by salaries+wages. Everton, under Moyes, consistently seem to buck this trend with regular 8th place finishes despite a budget which should see us finishing 12th/13th.
Based on the above, I don't think there is sufficient justification for the board to sack David Moyes. Football is a results game, and chairmen will generally set targets based on final league placing rather than anything else. In this respect, David Moyes exceeds the board's expectations and has done for pretty much the last decade.
* correction
'regular 8th place finishes' should have read 'regular top 8 finishes'
which obviously includes 4th, 5th, 6th place finishes and several European qualifications.
'regular 8th place finishes' should have read 'regular top 8 finishes'
which obviously includes 4th, 5th, 6th place finishes and several European qualifications.
Tommy when I look back over your posts, I don't necessarily see an objective 'critique'. Just saying, like.
I agree with all that, Mark, as it pretty well sums up the situation we are in. I suspect that Moyes will remain as our manager just as long as BK is at the helm.
After that, he should be given time and money to show whether he can actually win something ? even if it`s only the Carling Cup!
After that, he should be given time and money to show whether he can actually win something ? even if it`s only the Carling Cup!
Fair enough Mark, but for some of us, ten years in a job should produce more than top eight finishes and at least some silverware.
That is fine Roman, and you are intitled to that opinion. The thing is though, just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me an 'apologist' (or whatever the term of the day is).
Richard, don't go over the top please, I don't mind at all people having different opinions to me.
What I can't stand is people defending the indefensible. For example, you occansionally have been critical of Moyes but my gripe against you is your perpetual defense of Kenwright, a fella that is ruining our club. With Dave Wilson, he always slates Kenwright but my gripe with him is his constant defense of Moyes.
Both of yours and Dave Wilson's counter arguments always have the same pattern. When people are critical of certain points, you both try to pull back the argument to try and make everyone see the "bigger picture". Kenwright is a Blue or Moyes has no money etc...
Counter the specific point or just let people vent their frustration.
Mark Stone - I've been positive when we've had things to cheer about, the recent FA Cup and Man Cty wins for example. The big problem I have about Moyes is our style of play, it is everything I'm against in football, I haven't seen anything contrary to that view.
What I can't stand is people defending the indefensible. For example, you occansionally have been critical of Moyes but my gripe against you is your perpetual defense of Kenwright, a fella that is ruining our club. With Dave Wilson, he always slates Kenwright but my gripe with him is his constant defense of Moyes.
Both of yours and Dave Wilson's counter arguments always have the same pattern. When people are critical of certain points, you both try to pull back the argument to try and make everyone see the "bigger picture". Kenwright is a Blue or Moyes has no money etc...
Counter the specific point or just let people vent their frustration.
Mark Stone - I've been positive when we've had things to cheer about, the recent FA Cup and Man Cty wins for example. The big problem I have about Moyes is our style of play, it is everything I'm against in football, I haven't seen anything contrary to that view.
Tommy
Do you really think I give a flying fuck what you call me, anyone who reads my posts and isn't blind or stupid will testify that I regularly criticise Moyes. I feel no need to justify myself to you,
However, that isn't the point on this thread. The point I was making is that people like you who can only resort to name-calling and calling for bans are IMO turning people with an alternative view away.
I may well be wrong and if I am you can come and taunt me with, "I told you so," but if I`m right you will get your wish. nobody will argue with you and you`ll always be right, even if you don't watch the games.
You can be very assured Tommy that you can resort to childish name calling as much as you like in future without me saying a word. I`ve made me point.
Looking back a few people think there is something in what I say. I can't see anybody saying the point I`m making is bollocks.
[Cue the guy with the razor sharp...]
Do you really think I give a flying fuck what you call me, anyone who reads my posts and isn't blind or stupid will testify that I regularly criticise Moyes. I feel no need to justify myself to you,
However, that isn't the point on this thread. The point I was making is that people like you who can only resort to name-calling and calling for bans are IMO turning people with an alternative view away.
I may well be wrong and if I am you can come and taunt me with, "I told you so," but if I`m right you will get your wish. nobody will argue with you and you`ll always be right, even if you don't watch the games.
You can be very assured Tommy that you can resort to childish name calling as much as you like in future without me saying a word. I`ve made me point.
Looking back a few people think there is something in what I say. I can't see anybody saying the point I`m making is bollocks.
[Cue the guy with the razor sharp...]
Tommy ? you say 'I don't mind at all people having different opinions to me. What I can't stand is people defending the indefensible.'
Surely the whole point is those with different opinions to you don't think that Moyes is indefensible!!
You seem like quite a black-and-white chap if you know what I mean. Do you not think Moyes has done any good in is time here?
Surely the whole point is those with different opinions to you don't think that Moyes is indefensible!!
You seem like quite a black-and-white chap if you know what I mean. Do you not think Moyes has done any good in is time here?
Just to add to that, that I don't think that any chairman outside the current top six could justify a job-dependent goal for their manager to win the FA Cup or Carling Cup, regardless of time frame. The reason for this is that, despite everyone having the possibility of winning, it's a weighted lottery (i.e., to use this year's Carling Cup as an example, at the outset of the competition the likelihood of Everton winning was less than the likelihood of Liverpool winning but greater than the likelihood of Cardiff City winning), and the number of times you enter does not increase the likelihood of winning.
In that respect, it's no more of a failure to not win a cup in year ten, than it was in year one or two. Therefore, obviously as fans we all want our team to win a trophy, the board can't really justify sacking a manager for not winning one when he is only the 10th/11th/12th most likely to do so (because of the budget that you set him).
In that respect, it's no more of a failure to not win a cup in year ten, than it was in year one or two. Therefore, obviously as fans we all want our team to win a trophy, the board can't really justify sacking a manager for not winning one when he is only the 10th/11th/12th most likely to do so (because of the budget that you set him).
Temper temper Dave.
"I regularly criticise Moyes". No you don't, show me the links to them.
If you wind people up Dave then expect people to throw names at you, and you know I'm not the only one who thinks you may be a wind-up merchant.
Sam ? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm specifically talking about people who won't have a bad word said regarding anything Moyes does.
And yes, I do believe Moyes has done good at Everton; he stablised us, got us into the Champions League which was very good and almost got us the FA Cup. But over 10 years, I don't think they are something to shout from the rooftops about.
It's his defensive negative style of play that grinds me more than anything. He doesn't know how to win and I've been saying that for years. I guessed it from the start and knew it when I watched us at 10 man Chelsea in the League Cup semi-final. He just froze in that game, he didn't know how to go for it. Don't you agree to these points?
His legacy is doing more damage than what we think: he has set up the whole youth system with his defensive style. If you had a son who played upfront or midfield, would you put him in a Moyes youth system? I wouldn't. There will be very few skilful players coming through our youth squad in the next few years. It will take 5 years for that to recover after Moyes has gone.
"I regularly criticise Moyes". No you don't, show me the links to them.
If you wind people up Dave then expect people to throw names at you, and you know I'm not the only one who thinks you may be a wind-up merchant.
Sam ? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm specifically talking about people who won't have a bad word said regarding anything Moyes does.
And yes, I do believe Moyes has done good at Everton; he stablised us, got us into the Champions League which was very good and almost got us the FA Cup. But over 10 years, I don't think they are something to shout from the rooftops about.
It's his defensive negative style of play that grinds me more than anything. He doesn't know how to win and I've been saying that for years. I guessed it from the start and knew it when I watched us at 10 man Chelsea in the League Cup semi-final. He just froze in that game, he didn't know how to go for it. Don't you agree to these points?
His legacy is doing more damage than what we think: he has set up the whole youth system with his defensive style. If you had a son who played upfront or midfield, would you put him in a Moyes youth system? I wouldn't. There will be very few skilful players coming through our youth squad in the next few years. It will take 5 years for that to recover after Moyes has gone.
I would love to see us go with this team vs Chelsea:
Howard, Neville, Heitinga, Distin, Baines, Donovan, Fellaini, Pienaar, Drenthe, Anichebe, Jelavic.
It won't happen though but, as long as we win, I don't really care!
Howard, Neville, Heitinga, Distin, Baines, Donovan, Fellaini, Pienaar, Drenthe, Anichebe, Jelavic.
It won't happen though but, as long as we win, I don't really care!
"I've been positive when we've had things to cheer about, the recent FA Cup and Man Cty wins for example."
I know you have Tommy, I read them and agreed with what you said. That is not what I talking about though. I'm talking about whether when you do criticise Moyes it is a 'critique' of not. Are honestly saying that you only ever objectivly 'critique' Moyes, with an open mind? Or would you say you sometimes have a tendancy to do something a little bit different to that?
"The big problem I have about Moyes is our style of play, it is everything I'm against in football, I haven't seen anything contrary to that view."
And I tend to agree with you, in fact I say exactly that in the post that you were responsing to. The most pertinent criticism of Moyes at the moment (certainly not the only one) IS the style of play. I don't think that there are many on here that would actually argue against you regarding that.
The difference of opinion is whether or not that warrants him being sacked. From the pespective of the board, the most important thing is final league position. By far and away the best predictor of final league placing is a combination of wages + salary. However, generally over the past 10 years, regardless of how aesthetically inspiring David Moyes's Everton are/have been, they finish in a higher league position than their finances dictate, and ultimately finish as high as anybody could realistically expect (I don't think anyone would objectively look at our finances and set a target for the manager to finishing above Man Utd, Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal). Therefore, from the perspective of the board (ie, whether or not he meets the realistic expectations that they set him, re: league position), I don't think there is any justification to have sacked him, as of yet.
Your opinion seems to be, and I'm not mocking it, that the board (ie, the ones who ultimately make the decision whether to sack him or not) should also (or alternatively ? you tell me which) set him an expectation based on the style of play. Now you are entitled to that opinion, but I disagree with it. Doesn't make me an 'apologist', it just means that I assess his performance in a different way to you.
I know you have Tommy, I read them and agreed with what you said. That is not what I talking about though. I'm talking about whether when you do criticise Moyes it is a 'critique' of not. Are honestly saying that you only ever objectivly 'critique' Moyes, with an open mind? Or would you say you sometimes have a tendancy to do something a little bit different to that?
"The big problem I have about Moyes is our style of play, it is everything I'm against in football, I haven't seen anything contrary to that view."
And I tend to agree with you, in fact I say exactly that in the post that you were responsing to. The most pertinent criticism of Moyes at the moment (certainly not the only one) IS the style of play. I don't think that there are many on here that would actually argue against you regarding that.
The difference of opinion is whether or not that warrants him being sacked. From the pespective of the board, the most important thing is final league position. By far and away the best predictor of final league placing is a combination of wages + salary. However, generally over the past 10 years, regardless of how aesthetically inspiring David Moyes's Everton are/have been, they finish in a higher league position than their finances dictate, and ultimately finish as high as anybody could realistically expect (I don't think anyone would objectively look at our finances and set a target for the manager to finishing above Man Utd, Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal). Therefore, from the perspective of the board (ie, whether or not he meets the realistic expectations that they set him, re: league position), I don't think there is any justification to have sacked him, as of yet.
Your opinion seems to be, and I'm not mocking it, that the board (ie, the ones who ultimately make the decision whether to sack him or not) should also (or alternatively ? you tell me which) set him an expectation based on the style of play. Now you are entitled to that opinion, but I disagree with it. Doesn't make me an 'apologist', it just means that I assess his performance in a different way to you.
I hope we win tomorrow, like everyone else on here, but I know if we do it will be 1-0 and no more.
I watched a game involving the top teams the other day for the first time in a long time and boy did it make me realise how our standards have dropped. If we don't get rid of this lot (the manager and the board) soon, I fear that it will be too late to 'turn the ship around'.
We are dreadful this season and it is blatantly obvious why ? this manager doesn't know how to play attacking football. I wish we would go out to win, not go out not to lose every game. Horrible negative football by the once great classy Everton...
What happened to the School of Science? A football club that had everything slowly drifting away....
I watched a game involving the top teams the other day for the first time in a long time and boy did it make me realise how our standards have dropped. If we don't get rid of this lot (the manager and the board) soon, I fear that it will be too late to 'turn the ship around'.
We are dreadful this season and it is blatantly obvious why ? this manager doesn't know how to play attacking football. I wish we would go out to win, not go out not to lose every game. Horrible negative football by the once great classy Everton...
What happened to the School of Science? A football club that had everything slowly drifting away....
When does longevity = success?
Mark - I'll try to be brief because I've been going on a bit..
"Are honestly saying that you only ever objectivly 'critique' Moyes, with an open mind?". Yes, for example if Moyes has made substitutions that have change a game I've praised him. You'll have to judge that yourself though by going through my posts.
"Doesn't make me an 'apologist'", absolutely. To make myself clear, I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is an 'apologist', no, an 'apologist' is someone who won't have a single bad word said against Moyes. It's impossible never to be critical of anything Moyes does, it just smacks of ulterior motives.
As for his sacking, he won't be. The current board, like a lot of fans, are content with our position and even think we are lucky to have David Moyes as manager. I don't, I think this will be Moyes's biggest ever job, I think its he who is lucky, not us.
Style of play and success go hand in hand. How many sides who play like us win anything? Greece in the Euros perhaps? Wimbledon in the 90s? In any walk of life, for success, you have to sometimes gamble; too much fear hangs over Moyes.
I think a club with our history is entitled to have a better reputation than what we have now. That reputation is down to Moyes and Moyes alone. I'm certain he will leave next year when his contract runs out, that's how I see it ending. Hopefully, Kenwright won't be too far behind.
"Are honestly saying that you only ever objectivly 'critique' Moyes, with an open mind?". Yes, for example if Moyes has made substitutions that have change a game I've praised him. You'll have to judge that yourself though by going through my posts.
"Doesn't make me an 'apologist'", absolutely. To make myself clear, I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is an 'apologist', no, an 'apologist' is someone who won't have a single bad word said against Moyes. It's impossible never to be critical of anything Moyes does, it just smacks of ulterior motives.
As for his sacking, he won't be. The current board, like a lot of fans, are content with our position and even think we are lucky to have David Moyes as manager. I don't, I think this will be Moyes's biggest ever job, I think its he who is lucky, not us.
Style of play and success go hand in hand. How many sides who play like us win anything? Greece in the Euros perhaps? Wimbledon in the 90s? In any walk of life, for success, you have to sometimes gamble; too much fear hangs over Moyes.
I think a club with our history is entitled to have a better reputation than what we have now. That reputation is down to Moyes and Moyes alone. I'm certain he will leave next year when his contract runs out, that's how I see it ending. Hopefully, Kenwright won't be too far behind.
I don't think anybody can claim to be truly objective when talking about EFC. Too much emotional energy invested.
IMO Dave Wilson is always wrong......
And Kevin Hudson suffers dreadfully with "Grandiloquence".
And Kevin Hudson suffers dreadfully with "Grandiloquence".
"An 'apologist' is someone who won't have a single bad word said against Moyes" ? In that case I have yet to meet/come across one.... yet surprisingly there are supposed to be quite a number on here.
It's funny that a poster probably got banned for telling someone to fuck off, yet all the snidey remarks and outright offensive name calling on other threads are left alone without so much as an eyelid being batted
It's funny that a poster probably got banned for telling someone to fuck off, yet all the snidey remarks and outright offensive name calling on other threads are left alone without so much as an eyelid being batted
Tommy, I agree with your comments about Moyes's negativity and to some agree about setting up to not lose rather than to win. There are times it drives me mad.
But I disagree about his time here overall and his legacy, I think if you look at his 10 years here compared to the preceding 10, he has done great work in stabilising and pushing the club forward. Arguably that progress stalled 2 years ago but I do think the financial situation is partly responsible at least.
As for having a son, I think I would put him in Moyes's youth system as I believe the man has integrity and instills a good work ethic. He gives youth a chance where deserved though I conceed that a kid hoping to live off flair alone would probably not do well...
But I disagree about his time here overall and his legacy, I think if you look at his 10 years here compared to the preceding 10, he has done great work in stabilising and pushing the club forward. Arguably that progress stalled 2 years ago but I do think the financial situation is partly responsible at least.
As for having a son, I think I would put him in Moyes's youth system as I believe the man has integrity and instills a good work ethic. He gives youth a chance where deserved though I conceed that a kid hoping to live off flair alone would probably not do well...
My neighbours kid was a mad Red; him and his brother (9 & 11) both played for the Everton and Liverpool academies.
One day, the younger and better one had a blue shirt on ? much to the disappointment of his dad ? so I asked him what had happened. Apparently, they had moved the lad to the Everton academy because they were light-years ahead of Liverpool's in terms of youth development and facilities (lo and behold, the boy has now converted to the right side of the divide).
Do you know what else swung it for him? Apparently Moyes is at most of the games on the touchline getting to know the kids and the parents. A record including Vaughan, Anichebe, Baxter, Rodwell and Barkley shows that it has reaped more dividends than most Premier League academies or do these attacking players not belong to Moyes because he's schooling everyone in defensive tactics? I'm sure Moyes's overly defensive academy team defnded their way to the league title as well didn't they?
I'd love to see us tear Chelsea apart, but to be honest it's not going to happen; the only way to get a result is to play like we did against City (that no-one was complaining about after we won). Liverpool recently did this in both legs of the Carling Cup and against Man Utd in the FA Cup, in fact it's their tactic in the majority of big games: soak up pressure, hit them on the break. Even their moronic fans accept that, even with all that they've spent, they can't take on a United or City at an attacking game. What gives us the right to think Everton are any different?
One day, the younger and better one had a blue shirt on ? much to the disappointment of his dad ? so I asked him what had happened. Apparently, they had moved the lad to the Everton academy because they were light-years ahead of Liverpool's in terms of youth development and facilities (lo and behold, the boy has now converted to the right side of the divide).
Do you know what else swung it for him? Apparently Moyes is at most of the games on the touchline getting to know the kids and the parents. A record including Vaughan, Anichebe, Baxter, Rodwell and Barkley shows that it has reaped more dividends than most Premier League academies or do these attacking players not belong to Moyes because he's schooling everyone in defensive tactics? I'm sure Moyes's overly defensive academy team defnded their way to the league title as well didn't they?
I'd love to see us tear Chelsea apart, but to be honest it's not going to happen; the only way to get a result is to play like we did against City (that no-one was complaining about after we won). Liverpool recently did this in both legs of the Carling Cup and against Man Utd in the FA Cup, in fact it's their tactic in the majority of big games: soak up pressure, hit them on the break. Even their moronic fans accept that, even with all that they've spent, they can't take on a United or City at an attacking game. What gives us the right to think Everton are any different?
Dear God, Moyes should stay in his job because "his knowledge of football in general and his players in particular is far greater", in his opinion, than our own wind-up merchant Doddy's.
And Dave Wilson: 'The point I was making is that people like you who can only resort to name-calling and calling for bans are IMO turning people with an alternative view away'. There is absolutely nothing unreasonable in calling attention to a post in which life-long Evertonians are told to fuck off by James Flynn. But, needless to say, that is only my opinion. Your somewhat shallow and fanciful defence of JF is one of the more sad things I have read here and anywhere else on Toffeeweb. JF is young, upbeat, brimming with American optimism, and, also, nearly always trotting out your line in post after post. Yes, its a breath of fresh air when someone tells others on these board to fuck off. And 'God knows the place needs him'.
Gareth Morgan, I'll 'patronize' you very slowly so that you can follow what I say: when you sign up to post on Toffeeweb there are a set of rules that you agree to follow, one of them is about the nature of dialogue with fellow posters in which it is made very clear that you cannot tell someone else to fuck off on here. Okay? In your world that might be construed as light-hearted banter and a good old rollicking roll. But not in mine and not on here. This is not an alehouse but a forum with rules. And, by the way, asking that a clear insulting breach of stated etiquette be dealt with is hardly autocratic. Respecting and imposing stated regulations is not autocratic. It is a part of the process.
Dave Wilson, delighted to be the cause of your new low point. I'll do it again for you: JF ought to have been suspended from the site. And what a short memory you have. You seem to love following other poeples' contributions to threads. Go back in time and see what Turnstead did and said. Turnstead was without any shadow of a doubt the most arrogant, high-minded, aggressive but narrow-minded poster ever to darken these boards. But, of course, he was in the DW camp, so memories are not always what they ought to be.
Gareth Morgan, I'll 'patronize' you very slowly so that you can follow what I say: when you sign up to post on Toffeeweb there are a set of rules that you agree to follow, one of them is about the nature of dialogue with fellow posters in which it is made very clear that you cannot tell someone else to fuck off on here. Okay? In your world that might be construed as light-hearted banter and a good old rollicking roll. But not in mine and not on here. This is not an alehouse but a forum with rules. And, by the way, asking that a clear insulting breach of stated etiquette be dealt with is hardly autocratic. Respecting and imposing stated regulations is not autocratic. It is a part of the process.
Dave Wilson, delighted to be the cause of your new low point. I'll do it again for you: JF ought to have been suspended from the site. And what a short memory you have. You seem to love following other poeples' contributions to threads. Go back in time and see what Turnstead did and said. Turnstead was without any shadow of a doubt the most arrogant, high-minded, aggressive but narrow-minded poster ever to darken these boards. But, of course, he was in the DW camp, so memories are not always what they ought to be.
James Martin ? I don't care if our youth teams win anything, I'm much more interested in their development. One of the major mistakes of the British youth system is the concentration on winning. It's one of the reasons the country produces a Rooney or Gascoigne once every 20 years.
The lads you mentioned, well Vaughan (Championship player), Anichebe (couldn't do 3 keep-ups), Baxter (God knows... supposed to be a great prospect), Rodwell (very good, but a defensive player) and Barkley (not sure what's going on with him).
As you can see, using your own examples, Moyes bringing through skilled technical attacking players has been a bit of a struggle.
You say Moyes attends the youth games, does he shout orders to the kids while they're playing like he does the senior team? God help them. Moyes reminds me of the school PE teacher in Kez, a complete throw back to the English football style of the 70s.
Paul Ferry ? I've heard a lot about Tunstead getting booted out, do you have the link to his post that got him banned?
The lads you mentioned, well Vaughan (Championship player), Anichebe (couldn't do 3 keep-ups), Baxter (God knows... supposed to be a great prospect), Rodwell (very good, but a defensive player) and Barkley (not sure what's going on with him).
As you can see, using your own examples, Moyes bringing through skilled technical attacking players has been a bit of a struggle.
You say Moyes attends the youth games, does he shout orders to the kids while they're playing like he does the senior team? God help them. Moyes reminds me of the school PE teacher in Kez, a complete throw back to the English football style of the 70s.
Paul Ferry ? I've heard a lot about Tunstead getting booted out, do you have the link to his post that got him banned?
Because of my comparitive youth (36), my time as an `active Evertonian` extends only to the Premier League years. Over that time, our style has not changed a great deal and, unless my memory is playing tricks, football under the likes of Kendall 2/3, Walker and Smith was no less dour than that we see today. Granted, Joe Royle brought some excitement into our lives but he too adopted the pragmatic approach that has been the hallmark of the Moyes years.
In all truth, none of these managers has ever been blessed with a surfeit of talent and thus have been forced to deploy their troops in a far less adventurous way than those who have talent abundance.
During those 20 years, we have seen a succession of managers whose addiction was to exciting, attacking football ? Mowbray's WBA and Holloway's Blackpool spring to mind ? and look where they ended up! So please, please, let`s face up to the truth: It is all about survival, with Moyes or anybody else in control, and if that means having to endure more unadventurous football, so be it.
`Our man` may well continue to frustrate with his safety first mantra but, unless and until he has the resources to sign more cultured and imaginative performers, we can only ever hope to be among 'the best of the rest'.
In all truth, none of these managers has ever been blessed with a surfeit of talent and thus have been forced to deploy their troops in a far less adventurous way than those who have talent abundance.
During those 20 years, we have seen a succession of managers whose addiction was to exciting, attacking football ? Mowbray's WBA and Holloway's Blackpool spring to mind ? and look where they ended up! So please, please, let`s face up to the truth: It is all about survival, with Moyes or anybody else in control, and if that means having to endure more unadventurous football, so be it.
`Our man` may well continue to frustrate with his safety first mantra but, unless and until he has the resources to sign more cultured and imaginative performers, we can only ever hope to be among 'the best of the rest'.
In a recent post, Dave Wilson stated that his anger and frustration with Moyes made him want to stick his fist in his face. Now, I may disagree with Dave on many points... but that sounded a little like criticism to me.
Andy - I bet he didn't say why he wanted to do that did he, or he ended the line with a "but".... that's not criticism, thats Wilson pretending to be objective.
Dave Wilson 644 - excellent evaluation.
Sam Hoare 749 -agree
Richard Dodd 772 - well said.
Mark Stone 773 - agree with that.
Funny thing for me though, after reading this thread, I find that I feel only the people on one side of the fence get told off, banned and hounded, whilst others use all kinds of threats, abuse, name calling without ever getting "pulled up" for the abuse. Just an observation. So many names have gone from this site, people who used to add to the debate without ever stating that they hated other evertonians, whoever they are.
The debate on this site is for me what makes it so entertaining. I have had cause (just and possibly unjust) to not agree with other posters. They have made personal comments and so have I. What I would hate though, would be to see any of them, however much we simply dont agree, get banned for expressing their opinion. So I for one think the idea of banning James Flynn is a bit of a farce, even though we often have different views of all things toffee.
Sam Hoare 749 -agree
Richard Dodd 772 - well said.
Mark Stone 773 - agree with that.
Funny thing for me though, after reading this thread, I find that I feel only the people on one side of the fence get told off, banned and hounded, whilst others use all kinds of threats, abuse, name calling without ever getting "pulled up" for the abuse. Just an observation. So many names have gone from this site, people who used to add to the debate without ever stating that they hated other evertonians, whoever they are.
The debate on this site is for me what makes it so entertaining. I have had cause (just and possibly unjust) to not agree with other posters. They have made personal comments and so have I. What I would hate though, would be to see any of them, however much we simply dont agree, get banned for expressing their opinion. So I for one think the idea of banning James Flynn is a bit of a farce, even though we often have different views of all things toffee.
I think I got banned for a while last year, I just tried to submit a comment and it never appeared. After it happened a couple of times I guessed I'd been banned. After that I didn't come back here for ~ 3 months and when I did I could submit again. I still don't know why, but then I do have a tendency to log on here after a few beers on my iPhone so must have said something when I was pissed.
Wrong side of the fence Mark? I too have been banned, although I had to ask MK for a pardon. Football is a funny old game!!!!
Don't think I've been banned but I've submitted much alcohol fulled dross that rightly hasn't seen day light.
Barry Rathbone(808) Talking about the first paragraph of post 690 at all?!
In the last 3 days, posters have brought up the following three points in their criticism of David Moyes.
1) Moyes failed in several attempts to get PNE promoted to the Premier League;
2) Steven Gerrard was playing regularly in the Premier League when he was Ross Barkley's age
3) Harry Redknapp has won the FA Cup with Spurs.
My response to those points is that because Moyes won the Premier League and FA Cup double last year, and is on course to win the Champions League this year, he must be one the best managers in the world.
1) Moyes failed in several attempts to get PNE promoted to the Premier League;
2) Steven Gerrard was playing regularly in the Premier League when he was Ross Barkley's age
3) Harry Redknapp has won the FA Cup with Spurs.
My response to those points is that because Moyes won the Premier League and FA Cup double last year, and is on course to win the Champions League this year, he must be one the best managers in the world.
Tommy,
Vaughan ? Championship player, in your opinion ? the fact he's spent the majority of his unfortunately injured career in the Premier League would suggest otherwise.
Anichebe ? 1 couldn't do 3 keep-ups ? where's that come from? Apart from having seem him negate that ridiculous accusation in every pre-match warm-up, is he not our leading striker this season, despite spending half of it injured and only playing from the bench?
You've pretty much discounted Baxter and Barkley despite both of them making it into the first team squad as attacking midfielders at a young age.
I understand your point on the over-emphasis given to winning things at youth level but, then again, the Man Utd team of the 90s did all come from that successful youth team. If they're winning against their peers across the country, that just tells you that you have a good batch of kids compared to everyone else... What's wrong with that?
Vaughan ? Championship player, in your opinion ? the fact he's spent the majority of his unfortunately injured career in the Premier League would suggest otherwise.
Anichebe ? 1 couldn't do 3 keep-ups ? where's that come from? Apart from having seem him negate that ridiculous accusation in every pre-match warm-up, is he not our leading striker this season, despite spending half of it injured and only playing from the bench?
You've pretty much discounted Baxter and Barkley despite both of them making it into the first team squad as attacking midfielders at a young age.
I understand your point on the over-emphasis given to winning things at youth level but, then again, the Man Utd team of the 90s did all come from that successful youth team. If they're winning against their peers across the country, that just tells you that you have a good batch of kids compared to everyone else... What's wrong with that?
I'm not sure how productive it will be but I feel obligated to enter this debate, if only to reinforce exactly what Paul Ferry (#827) has said.
One thing above all that we have received complaints about is people being abusive to other posters. So we put the rules in place... why, Lyndon even created the "Report Abuse" button so those offended by this problem could draw it to our attention.
So, when someone is abusive, they get banned. Simples.
I don't really want to publish what Ian Tunstead put up that got him banned but it serves as a pretty good example of what we are talking about here:
Ian had been posting a frenzy of stuff up to that point, and this seems to be a pattern, where a poster gets more and more wound up, until they finally snap and lash out at their fellow Evertonians.
I should clarify here that bans for such nonsense only become permanent if self-imposed. We are generally pretty forgiving (see Dean Adams #8520; most people accept when they have crossed a line.
I think the rules are pretty clear; I think we impose them at a minimal level that allows for a fair amount of banter, passion, emotion, frustration, anger, annoyance, posturing... whatever you want to call it.
Some are still not happy and stick with their own misconceptions (TJW #812):
And from Dean Adams (#850):
Only the people on one side of the fence get told off, banned and hounded, whilst others use all kinds of threats, abuse, name calling without ever getting "pulled up" for the abuse.
Not true. As I've said countless times, I don't care what you write in favour of Moyes or against; it mostly gets posted... (or have you not actually noticed that?) But you abuse fellow Evertonians, as Ian Tunstead and Jimmy Flynn did very deliberately, and you get banned. That's it.
If you don't like it, let's see you come up with an alternative that you think is better?
One thing above all that we have received complaints about is people being abusive to other posters. So we put the rules in place... why, Lyndon even created the "Report Abuse" button so those offended by this problem could draw it to our attention.
So, when someone is abusive, they get banned. Simples.
I don't really want to publish what Ian Tunstead put up that got him banned but it serves as a pretty good example of what we are talking about here:
Bob, it's Boxing Day, that one day of the year when it is perfectly ok to insult people ? especially people who have done their best to serve our club for over 10 years.He was objecting to David Moyes being called "Gollum" and decided that was the best way to make his point. Some of you may agree with him and see that as justification for him spouting this kind of vitriolic abuse. Unfortunately, it's still abuse of the very worst kind in my eyes... and I think he knew it would get him banned.
Now for the backlash: all those who come on ToffeeWeb hiding in the shadows behind their computer screens are cowards of the highest order and wouldn't dare to say it to his face. You are cunts and more than that, you are worse than Liverpool supporters. That is the worst insult I can think of but you deserve it for being such disgusting pathetic human beings.
Ian had been posting a frenzy of stuff up to that point, and this seems to be a pattern, where a poster gets more and more wound up, until they finally snap and lash out at their fellow Evertonians.
I should clarify here that bans for such nonsense only become permanent if self-imposed. We are generally pretty forgiving (see Dean Adams #8520; most people accept when they have crossed a line.
I think the rules are pretty clear; I think we impose them at a minimal level that allows for a fair amount of banter, passion, emotion, frustration, anger, annoyance, posturing... whatever you want to call it.
Some are still not happy and stick with their own misconceptions (TJW #812):
It's funny that a poster probably got banned for telling someone to fuck off, yet all the snidey remarks and outright offensive name-calling on other threads are left alone without so much as an eyelid being batted.Tony: if you have concerns over something posted, let us know. I don't appear to have any such posts from you, reporting abuse.
And from Dean Adams (#850):
Only the people on one side of the fence get told off, banned and hounded, whilst others use all kinds of threats, abuse, name calling without ever getting "pulled up" for the abuse.
Not true. As I've said countless times, I don't care what you write in favour of Moyes or against; it mostly gets posted... (or have you not actually noticed that?) But you abuse fellow Evertonians, as Ian Tunstead and Jimmy Flynn did very deliberately, and you get banned. That's it.
If you don't like it, let's see you come up with an alternative that you think is better?
Dean, I'm on the other side, and short of my laptop having a massive malfunction last summer, I've been sent to cool my heals. I think I'm probably in the group of regular and unmoving Moyes Out Brigade contributors, so that theory could lose some ground mate.
Tommy
I siad it because I
I siad it because I
Tommy.
I made the remarks Andy Crooks speaks about because I had spent the best part of 200 quid and lost a days wages to go and watch Moyes allow Bily stroll around doing fuck all.
In the past couple of weeks I have said "I hate Moyes for picking Neville".
I dont blame Cahiil, "Moyes is the prick for playing him".
"I think we are playing shite football" . But I probably saved my heaviest criticism for when he spoke in derogatory terms about BU. Its all documented.
But I wont ever stoop to the level of agreeing something happened when I know it didnt.
I think you regularly claim that you refuse to watch Everton under Moyes to get a reaction and you do, people dont forget.
Your still entitled to your opinion of course, but I wont change mine. Particularly to appease someone who by his own admission watches the games on radio merseyside.
You also miss the point about name calling Tommy, you seem to think you are paying people back. You ain't, they offend nobody, but if people want a debate filled with childish name calling they`ll go and argue with their kids. More likely than not they`ll just give the thread a miss.
Paul Ferry
I have read Jimmy Flynn's remarks again, I dont think there is anywhere near the malice in his post that you are making out, Yes its a fuck this, fuck that and fuck you kinda post and for that - as I said earlier - he should apologise, but you are wrong. nowhere in his post does he tell Evertonians to fuck off.
I wont be alone in thinking your attack on him carried far more ill will and anger than anything he posted. Perhaps you will feel the same when you look back.
Mr Kenrick
Who knew ? I though I was the only person here who had fallen foul of the TW rules. But this thread has been a complete eye opener.
Editing this site must sometimes have felt like trying to keep the peace in a burning aviary. How you havent thrown your hand in years ago is a mystery to me.
I`m glad you didnt, I apologise for my part - Deliberately walking along that line
Cap doffed Sir. here's hoping you and LL will continue the good work . .and somehow manage to hold on to whats left of your sanity.
I made the remarks Andy Crooks speaks about because I had spent the best part of 200 quid and lost a days wages to go and watch Moyes allow Bily stroll around doing fuck all.
In the past couple of weeks I have said "I hate Moyes for picking Neville".
I dont blame Cahiil, "Moyes is the prick for playing him".
"I think we are playing shite football" . But I probably saved my heaviest criticism for when he spoke in derogatory terms about BU. Its all documented.
But I wont ever stoop to the level of agreeing something happened when I know it didnt.
I think you regularly claim that you refuse to watch Everton under Moyes to get a reaction and you do, people dont forget.
Your still entitled to your opinion of course, but I wont change mine. Particularly to appease someone who by his own admission watches the games on radio merseyside.
You also miss the point about name calling Tommy, you seem to think you are paying people back. You ain't, they offend nobody, but if people want a debate filled with childish name calling they`ll go and argue with their kids. More likely than not they`ll just give the thread a miss.
Paul Ferry
I have read Jimmy Flynn's remarks again, I dont think there is anywhere near the malice in his post that you are making out, Yes its a fuck this, fuck that and fuck you kinda post and for that - as I said earlier - he should apologise, but you are wrong. nowhere in his post does he tell Evertonians to fuck off.
I wont be alone in thinking your attack on him carried far more ill will and anger than anything he posted. Perhaps you will feel the same when you look back.
Mr Kenrick
Who knew ? I though I was the only person here who had fallen foul of the TW rules. But this thread has been a complete eye opener.
Editing this site must sometimes have felt like trying to keep the peace in a burning aviary. How you havent thrown your hand in years ago is a mystery to me.
I`m glad you didnt, I apologise for my part - Deliberately walking along that line
Cap doffed Sir. here's hoping you and LL will continue the good work . .and somehow manage to hold on to whats left of your sanity.
So James was banned for that? what a low point. Yeah he lost his shit a bit and lashed out but so what! He's only human. Maybe he was looking forward to going to the game and all the piss-take negativity on this thread sent him over the edge.
Oh and well done PC Paul Ferry you got your wish. Are you the kid of guy who rings those telephone numbers on the back of lorrys which read 'am I driving safely?' or we're you bullied at school and now your trying to get your retribution. Either way people like you make me gag a bit.
Probably be banned now.
Off to the game. COYB.
Oh and well done PC Paul Ferry you got your wish. Are you the kid of guy who rings those telephone numbers on the back of lorrys which read 'am I driving safely?' or we're you bullied at school and now your trying to get your retribution. Either way people like you make me gag a bit.
Probably be banned now.
Off to the game. COYB.
Michael, I don't have concerns and don't care what others write in offensive terms, I would never call for a poster to be banned
I said something and was red-carded for it fair enough. But by the time I was allowed to post again, that thread?s momentum had ended. The OP was ?Time to think about the Chelsea game? on 7 FEB.
Since I have a day or two before building up anger towards QPR, I?d like to respond to several posts of that OP. You will see an original post from that thread and my response to it. Thus:
?Stevenson (245) - I was writing a reply to Fearon (237)
James Flynn 263 Posted 08/02/2012 at 00:40:35
Fuck Chelsea. And fuck the both of you?.
JF: Stevenson and Fearon ? I said it and it was posted, so I can?t unsay it. However, I can apologize for expressing my feelings poorly. And do so here.
Well done, Jimmy Flynn. Stand up and admit you were wrong. Well done... even though it took a few weeks.
To be fair though. Abuse against people who don't unconditionally accept the negative views often posted on here appears to be accepted without moderation. It appears to be a one-way system? Abusers should be banned whatever their point of view.
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