Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Shiny silver cups
66 Comments: On another thread Sam Hoare, a TW member who is pro-David Moyes, asked me this question.
"Would you say that Portsmouth or Birmingham had enjoyed a more successful decade than us?"
Here is my answer;
I want to see us winning things.
If we went through the next 60 years playing in the top division but never winning anything I'd die never having really seen us win a trophy (age 10 in 95). All I'd have to look back on would be wins over Liverpool and Man Utd. For that reason I'd say yes they have.
Not an easy one to answer though. I can see the other side of the coin.
I'd be interested to know what others think about this?
As most who use the site regularly will know I'm not David Moyes's biggest fan. I'd also like to think I'm not blind to his faults.
I don't believe he is a manager who will win trophies as we have frozen when the pressure is on several times. We have also IMO underperformed in cup competitions throughout his reign.
Ste Kenny, Posted 15/02/2012 at 07:46:44
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Give me 17th every season and the FA Cup, 4th yeah brings revenue but we will never win the Champions League unless we get a major takeover. I'm not interested in cheering on 6th position, yee ha, every season. I would snap anyone's hand off for us to just stay up and win the cup. At the end of the day, isn't that what this game is supposed to be about? Winning trophies!
"Would you say that Portsmouth or Birmingham had enjoyed a more successful decade than us?"
No,
I would say they have had a much poorer decade than us. They have both been relegated!
I wouldnt swap with them for twenty league cups!
No,
I would say they have had a much poorer decade than us. They have both been relegated!
I wouldnt swap with them for twenty league cups!
I think I posted on the same thread that the only managers to win a trophy outside of the Sky 4 and City during Moyes' 10 years are Redknapp (FA Cup, Portsmouth), Ramos, Souness, MacLeish, McLaren (League Cup).
And I think you gave way to your real intentions about the post towards the end. This apparent inability you talk of to win a trophy is something you want to use to bash Moyes over the head with.
I see more success gained by being consistent European contenders be it CL or Europa, lending to more potential for the seasons ahead, than if we were a perennial relegation dodgers such as all of the above... bar Spurs.
You've got Portsmouth - relegated and bust, Boro - relegated, Birmingham - relegated, Blackburn - fighting for survival and Spurs with £350m spent in the time Moyes has been at the helm.
Quite frankly, Moyes has done more for this club, given us more to sing about (incidentally, the only manager who has qualified for the CL without being bank rolled and the first of only 2 to have broken the old strangle hold of the top 4) than all those managers who won a trophy, and yet you telling me you'd have more respect and time for him if he had brought home one of these trophies at the same time as keeping us permanently in 17th?
What real difference would Moyes' record show if in addition to his league history had we held our lead against Chelsea? I tell you, none. These are tin pots only trading on former glories before football sold itself.
If you want Moyes gone, take a pick from the managers above. If you'd want any taking his place, you're nuts. But MacLeish is so obviously a winner that he'd be much better and we'd forgive him for relegating our asses, all for that League Cup trophy... what a guy!
Other than Spurs, all the above clubs are a joke... but how glorious they are for lifting something in matches no one bothers to watch anymore. The Sky 4 either had an off day, or had knocked each other out on the way to the final. Winning one of these trophies is no longer a sign of success.
Rant over. Think of a better reason to dislike Moyes, but not this crap.
And I think you gave way to your real intentions about the post towards the end. This apparent inability you talk of to win a trophy is something you want to use to bash Moyes over the head with.
I see more success gained by being consistent European contenders be it CL or Europa, lending to more potential for the seasons ahead, than if we were a perennial relegation dodgers such as all of the above... bar Spurs.
You've got Portsmouth - relegated and bust, Boro - relegated, Birmingham - relegated, Blackburn - fighting for survival and Spurs with £350m spent in the time Moyes has been at the helm.
Quite frankly, Moyes has done more for this club, given us more to sing about (incidentally, the only manager who has qualified for the CL without being bank rolled and the first of only 2 to have broken the old strangle hold of the top 4) than all those managers who won a trophy, and yet you telling me you'd have more respect and time for him if he had brought home one of these trophies at the same time as keeping us permanently in 17th?
What real difference would Moyes' record show if in addition to his league history had we held our lead against Chelsea? I tell you, none. These are tin pots only trading on former glories before football sold itself.
If you want Moyes gone, take a pick from the managers above. If you'd want any taking his place, you're nuts. But MacLeish is so obviously a winner that he'd be much better and we'd forgive him for relegating our asses, all for that League Cup trophy... what a guy!
Other than Spurs, all the above clubs are a joke... but how glorious they are for lifting something in matches no one bothers to watch anymore. The Sky 4 either had an off day, or had knocked each other out on the way to the final. Winning one of these trophies is no longer a sign of success.
Rant over. Think of a better reason to dislike Moyes, but not this crap.
Like every other manager outside `The Super Six`, I imagine Davey`s first objective is to ensure survival in the Prem. Yes, a trophy would be nice ? as would more regular European qualification. But never in a hundred years would I take a trip to Wembley at the expense of sacrificing top league status. Just ask the fans of Pompey and Brum!
Well spotted Ben. I only noticed that once I'd sent it in. Should say I'm not blind to his skills as a manager.
I feel lucky to have seen Everton win three league titles, a European trophy and three FA Cups - I'd trade all of them for a Hibbert winning goal in the derby after clattering Suarez and sending him into Row Z of the Kemlin Road stand, knocking out Alan - kopite-Green's teeth on the way.
Well, you can't live on memories alone
Well, you can't live on memories alone
I'm sure all the Pompey Fans will just be glad they had one day in the sun as they're getting wound up. Wouldn't swap that for Everton's position would they?
Nick,
Thanks for the rant. Much appreciated.
No intention other than a curiosity to find out how other Evertonians would answer that question.
I thought it wise to post my answer and the reason's for it at the outset so people wouldn't claim some ulterior motive as you just have.
IMO as we have gone a decade without winning a trophy it's a thought provoking question.
Thanks for the rant. Much appreciated.
No intention other than a curiosity to find out how other Evertonians would answer that question.
I thought it wise to post my answer and the reason's for it at the outset so people wouldn't claim some ulterior motive as you just have.
IMO as we have gone a decade without winning a trophy it's a thought provoking question.
James,
It's a sad scenario being played out at Pompey. And no doubt they would kill to be in our position. But the question isn't would I swap places with them.
I wouldn't swap places with Barcelona, I'm an Evertonian, and a proud one.
It's a sad scenario being played out at Pompey. And no doubt they would kill to be in our position. But the question isn't would I swap places with them.
I wouldn't swap places with Barcelona, I'm an Evertonian, and a proud one.
It is a different situation with Boro, Pompey and Birmingham. Their histories are made up of yo-yoing between the divisions, so with the exception of Pompey's financial situation, their fans may well be happy to take a relegation that they have plenty of experience before if their was some sort of trophy along the way, and in Boro's case a European final too.
No Evertonians much under 70 can remember the pain of relegation, and we don't have the experience and know how of how to deal with it.
No Evertonians much under 70 can remember the pain of relegation, and we don't have the experience and know how of how to deal with it.
I wouldn't swap with any of those clubs. 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th in the league is a much better return over this period. But winning a cup and relegation don't have to go together do they?
Apart from the FA Cup run, that got us to the final against Chelsea, we never seem to be fully geared up to compete in every game in either of the domestic cups. I would think, along with safety of staying in the league, that our current financial status leaves us with either one of the cups being our only real chance of a trophy. Portsmouth, Birmingham etc. are just examples of the good point that even a relegation team can win a cup.
I don't argue the toss anymore, there's an unbridgeable chasm between my view of Everton and others, winning stuff will always be the measure for me trumpetting top 8 and simply being in the Prem leaves me cold. The problem with this kind of question is it evolves into a fallacy ie the others won a cup ergo they got relegated - just not so.
Interpreting stats about money and Moyes is a tennis match, you choose your side and bang away, I don't really care. Watching Everton 9 times out of 10 is dire and needn't be so, teams with a lot less resource both here and abroad show it.
Fans are resigned to just existing in the division with 2 or 3 games a year worth the entrance money let alone silverware. I'm just tired of it, is there a footballing equivalent of brewers droop? - I've got it with EFC.
Interpreting stats about money and Moyes is a tennis match, you choose your side and bang away, I don't really care. Watching Everton 9 times out of 10 is dire and needn't be so, teams with a lot less resource both here and abroad show it.
Fans are resigned to just existing in the division with 2 or 3 games a year worth the entrance money let alone silverware. I'm just tired of it, is there a footballing equivalent of brewers droop? - I've got it with EFC.
Kevin,
'Well, you can't live on memories alone'
Be nice to give it a try though.
I'd take getting twatted every week by the shite to have seen Everton do what you've seen.
'Well, you can't live on memories alone'
Be nice to give it a try though.
I'd take getting twatted every week by the shite to have seen Everton do what you've seen.
Ste, I guess it comes down to what value you place on these bottom rung competitions.
To win one of these we can see it doesn't take a man of Moyes' ability to bring one home. It just takes, as I pointed out, the money teams to have an off day or knock each other out on the way to the final.
I wouldn't beat Moyes over the head with it, Portsmouth, Blackburn, Boro, Birmingham and Spurs fared well in the lottery of all the other clubs hoping to sneak something that would otherwise be predictably picked up by the money teams. That's five times in 20 tin cups. The trophies big teams field reserves for in the semis, even the final.
Of course, you don't see other teams win the league, or European cup, or even hit top 4. And that shows why your comment on Moyes being unable to win a cup as a little misleading.
He may be unable to lift the title or the European Cup with Everton for obvious reasons, but that's a success we're closer too, compared to some imagined or presumed success should he score lucky as five lessers have done with a tin pot trophy, which as the other teams have shown means nothing on the road to a brighter future.
If we pick up the FA Cup this season, great, nice day out. Best of all it means Europe next season but that's as positive as I can be for a cup win.
(I sat down to watch the final in May. Can't for the life of me remember who was in it. But decided a marathon run of Come Dine With Me Australia would be better...)
To win one of these we can see it doesn't take a man of Moyes' ability to bring one home. It just takes, as I pointed out, the money teams to have an off day or knock each other out on the way to the final.
I wouldn't beat Moyes over the head with it, Portsmouth, Blackburn, Boro, Birmingham and Spurs fared well in the lottery of all the other clubs hoping to sneak something that would otherwise be predictably picked up by the money teams. That's five times in 20 tin cups. The trophies big teams field reserves for in the semis, even the final.
Of course, you don't see other teams win the league, or European cup, or even hit top 4. And that shows why your comment on Moyes being unable to win a cup as a little misleading.
He may be unable to lift the title or the European Cup with Everton for obvious reasons, but that's a success we're closer too, compared to some imagined or presumed success should he score lucky as five lessers have done with a tin pot trophy, which as the other teams have shown means nothing on the road to a brighter future.
If we pick up the FA Cup this season, great, nice day out. Best of all it means Europe next season but that's as positive as I can be for a cup win.
(I sat down to watch the final in May. Can't for the life of me remember who was in it. But decided a marathon run of Come Dine With Me Australia would be better...)
Nick,
I think there's a fair few Evertonians who care a lot, especially for the FA cup. In my eyes it's bettered only by European trophies.
To be fair to Moyes he has usually been operating with small squads. I can understand a reluctance to try and fight multiple fronts with a small group of players, particularly when we had an outside shot of CL football.
The brighter road you speak of is what if not winning trophies? I believe winning is a habit.
I think there's a fair few Evertonians who care a lot, especially for the FA cup. In my eyes it's bettered only by European trophies.
To be fair to Moyes he has usually been operating with small squads. I can understand a reluctance to try and fight multiple fronts with a small group of players, particularly when we had an outside shot of CL football.
The brighter road you speak of is what if not winning trophies? I believe winning is a habit.
Well, the obvious answer to that is to point towards the teams who have won these trophies and shows that it definitely doesn't help things. Maybe winning these trophies are a sign that you are a successful side, but not not impossible to win if you're not.
Anyway, FA Cups of old were as highly prized as league championships, not now. For what it's worth... here's how a rank what's on offer...
1, League Title/ European Cup.
3, Top 4
4, FA Cup/ Europa Cup
6, League Cup
With those bottom 3 they only really matter when you're near the final, at which point everyone else who isn't competing gave up caring, or possibly never cared in the first place.
Anyway, FA Cups of old were as highly prized as league championships, not now. For what it's worth... here's how a rank what's on offer...
1, League Title/ European Cup.
3, Top 4
4, FA Cup/ Europa Cup
6, League Cup
With those bottom 3 they only really matter when you're near the final, at which point everyone else who isn't competing gave up caring, or possibly never cared in the first place.
By brighter future, I mean that domestic trophies don't mean anything. The only way (bar a billionaire) to win the league would be to qualify for champions league, where the kudos and money allow you to invest in the players for competing for the league championship.
You can do the domestic trophy double from here until the sun engulfs the Earth, but doesn't mean you'll be in the top 4, getting that investment, challenging the best in the land.
As we'll see tonight, Arsenal haven't won the title in years, but have a champions league match will have outplay AC Milan.
That is the brighter future. Because they wouldn't be able to win the league without being in that tournament.
And if you're not, then you're chasing at best 5th. Wonderful. And Moyes despite never picking up a domestic trophy has had us closer to the CL than all other teams. That is why I value what he has done, and don't tag him as a loser for not winning a cup.
You can do the domestic trophy double from here until the sun engulfs the Earth, but doesn't mean you'll be in the top 4, getting that investment, challenging the best in the land.
As we'll see tonight, Arsenal haven't won the title in years, but have a champions league match will have outplay AC Milan.
That is the brighter future. Because they wouldn't be able to win the league without being in that tournament.
And if you're not, then you're chasing at best 5th. Wonderful. And Moyes despite never picking up a domestic trophy has had us closer to the CL than all other teams. That is why I value what he has done, and don't tag him as a loser for not winning a cup.
...and will outplay AC Milan.
I would love to see us win a cup but I don't see why we should have to take 17th place too.
Why can't we go on a run until the end of the season and pick up the FA Cup...it would be brilliant.
The one game that sticks in my mind the most in our cup runs is the first leg of the semi against Chelsea, where the Yak nearly decapitates Johnson to make it 1-1 and all is fine until the Klingon gets outjumped by a dwarf and Howard is stuck to his line instead of taking everyone out to get the ball.
The defining moment in that tie.
Why can't we go on a run until the end of the season and pick up the FA Cup...it would be brilliant.
The one game that sticks in my mind the most in our cup runs is the first leg of the semi against Chelsea, where the Yak nearly decapitates Johnson to make it 1-1 and all is fine until the Klingon gets outjumped by a dwarf and Howard is stuck to his line instead of taking everyone out to get the ball.
The defining moment in that tie.
Tony,
On the original thread I stated that tie as when we were at our best under Moyes. I still believe we'd have got fourth or better and won that tie bar the AFCON.
At that point I thought Moyes was the second coming. I never felt we'd get beat and I don't think he did either.
On the original thread I stated that tie as when we were at our best under Moyes. I still believe we'd have got fourth or better and won that tie bar the AFCON.
At that point I thought Moyes was the second coming. I never felt we'd get beat and I don't think he did either.
The lads in my South Manchester local are, of course, mainly MU and MC supporters. Its a student area so there are many others too, particularly from the the deep south.
Whenever I'm asked who I support, the response is almost always exactly the same - Everton? Respect.
What I hear is credit where its due, and they rate us as good opponents who they always take very seriously. Moyes is regarded as a miracle worker in the world of money which all football followers understand. And I'm quite often surprised by how many of our players they will name and rate highly. Not too many Birmingham or Portsmouth lads in that category.
Having won the League Cup or - a shame perhaps - the FA Cup has nothing to do with this. Turning up, year after year in the top flight and proving your worth is what its all about. I can't remember us being relegated, and it would shatter me if it happened. I remember MU going into Div 2, and City? A yo-yo club at best without the spondoolicks.
Tell you how it goes round here. Some of the lads in the bar the other night were claiming that Ryan Giggs had played more Prem games than City. I have no interest in checking that one out, but the bedrock of football success is being at, or as near as you can be, to the top.
We can, and should, criticise the club, its manager and players (the groundsman seems to be doing alright - perhaps some would disagree!) in these pages. But that's between us. I'm really glad I can walk around the corner to get an entirely different perspective on our club, and from people who just as knowledgeable about football as we are.
Whenever I'm asked who I support, the response is almost always exactly the same - Everton? Respect.
What I hear is credit where its due, and they rate us as good opponents who they always take very seriously. Moyes is regarded as a miracle worker in the world of money which all football followers understand. And I'm quite often surprised by how many of our players they will name and rate highly. Not too many Birmingham or Portsmouth lads in that category.
Having won the League Cup or - a shame perhaps - the FA Cup has nothing to do with this. Turning up, year after year in the top flight and proving your worth is what its all about. I can't remember us being relegated, and it would shatter me if it happened. I remember MU going into Div 2, and City? A yo-yo club at best without the spondoolicks.
Tell you how it goes round here. Some of the lads in the bar the other night were claiming that Ryan Giggs had played more Prem games than City. I have no interest in checking that one out, but the bedrock of football success is being at, or as near as you can be, to the top.
We can, and should, criticise the club, its manager and players (the groundsman seems to be doing alright - perhaps some would disagree!) in these pages. But that's between us. I'm really glad I can walk around the corner to get an entirely different perspective on our club, and from people who just as knowledgeable about football as we are.
Keith,
By that reckoning we are the second most successful club in the history of English football?
By that reckoning we are the second most successful club in the history of English football?
In this day and age finishing 4th (and then qualifying for the group stages of the CL) represents far greater success than winning the FA Cup, let alone the League Cup.
An indictment on what our game is now all about. I'd love us to with the League Cup, purely because the closest I've ever seen us come was Semi Final. Thank you Perry Groves...
An indictment on what our game is now all about. I'd love us to with the League Cup, purely because the closest I've ever seen us come was Semi Final. Thank you Perry Groves...
Stephen #203 So who`s the first?
Don't think anyone has played more top flight football than us. Anywhere.
Fuck 4th, that can wait, I want to see us parading arounnd the City with a cup again.
Who`s to say that won't happen this year?
Don't think anyone has played more top flight football than us. Anywhere.
Fuck 4th, that can wait, I want to see us parading arounnd the City with a cup again.
Who`s to say that won't happen this year?
Although Moyes has on the whole a bad cup record, he has been very unlucky in some of the latter stages he has got to. Liverpool's last few domestic finals have been against Cardiff, West Ham, and Birmingham City. Portsmouth's was also against Cardiff. Boro beat Bolton in the League Cup. Everton found themselves without their three best players against what was at the time probably Europe's best team that should have beaten Barcelona and won the Champions League.
That Everton team beat off Liverpool, Villa, Boro and Man United to get to the final, considering the other semi-final was Chelsea v Arsenal, not one of the big teams had slipped up that year or got a bad draw allowing a minnow into the final. If we'd played a Cardiff or Bolton, I'm sure Moyes would have had an FA Cup to his name. If he hadn't have been against Mourinho's Chelsea he might have got to the Legaue Cup final.
This doesn't excuse all the times that he's cocked up against smaller teams but the direct comparisons with the Portsmouths and Middlesboroughs of this world are hardly fair.
That Everton team beat off Liverpool, Villa, Boro and Man United to get to the final, considering the other semi-final was Chelsea v Arsenal, not one of the big teams had slipped up that year or got a bad draw allowing a minnow into the final. If we'd played a Cardiff or Bolton, I'm sure Moyes would have had an FA Cup to his name. If he hadn't have been against Mourinho's Chelsea he might have got to the Legaue Cup final.
This doesn't excuse all the times that he's cocked up against smaller teams but the direct comparisons with the Portsmouths and Middlesboroughs of this world are hardly fair.
Dave, you may have thousands of Blues come out to celebrate the cup, but you'd have many more excited should Moyes take 4th. Could be wrong, but I doubt it.
Not sure if Birmingham FC did a lap of honour round the Bullring holding up their cup when they were relegated. I could guarantee that everyone of their faithful would have wished for a swap.
Dave #218
Not having Pienaar or Donovan available as well as a couple of disappointing defeats to lesser oppononents (at Goodison) in the last 2 years doesn't quite pave the Wembley Way for me. Just being a realist - hope I'm wrong mind you - when addressing your question.
As to the wider debate, when I look at the club roll of honour the winning sides are all there with trophies and dates, and I have to wonder what the heck happened during all the blank periods (not including the WW1 and WW2 years). In 30-40 years time what will future Evertonians think of this blank decade? How much understanding will there be of top 8 finishes and the hegemony of the Big 4 or Big 6 (or whatever). Or qualifying for the Champions League? My guess? These years'll just look blank and will be looked over very quickly for whatever came next. Wouldn't we like to know what that actually will look like?
Not having Pienaar or Donovan available as well as a couple of disappointing defeats to lesser oppononents (at Goodison) in the last 2 years doesn't quite pave the Wembley Way for me. Just being a realist - hope I'm wrong mind you - when addressing your question.
As to the wider debate, when I look at the club roll of honour the winning sides are all there with trophies and dates, and I have to wonder what the heck happened during all the blank periods (not including the WW1 and WW2 years). In 30-40 years time what will future Evertonians think of this blank decade? How much understanding will there be of top 8 finishes and the hegemony of the Big 4 or Big 6 (or whatever). Or qualifying for the Champions League? My guess? These years'll just look blank and will be looked over very quickly for whatever came next. Wouldn't we like to know what that actually will look like?
I sometimes wonder whether some people have ever played or, then more rarely, coached competetive sports. Being involved tends to give you a better sense of reality.
The FA Cup was originally called the FA Challenge Cup because it was set up to sort out the team that would challenge the previous year's winners. Like World Cup winners, they didn't have to qualify. They went straight to the Oval, or wherever.
It was, and still is, a lottery (notice the use of balls). It became a part of the national consciousness after the invention of radio then outside broadcasts by the BBC (after they got their much more important Boat Race sorted out).
Usually there can only be one winner ? as in a cup final. And we naturally support our team when it happens. But your chances of doing that are next to nothing. So you shouldn't really bother should you? Man Utd didn't a few years back.
That's not how sport works. 'Shit lads, no chance of winning a title/cup this year, fuck off home'. I personally dislike titles, cups, gold medals and ? not for the sake of the franchise owners ? relagation. I've seen and been involved with thousands of people producing fabulous sporting occasions without any of that.
Yes, Everton is a massively successful football club. Don't ask me, ask supporters of Birmigham and Portsmouth.
The FA Cup was originally called the FA Challenge Cup because it was set up to sort out the team that would challenge the previous year's winners. Like World Cup winners, they didn't have to qualify. They went straight to the Oval, or wherever.
It was, and still is, a lottery (notice the use of balls). It became a part of the national consciousness after the invention of radio then outside broadcasts by the BBC (after they got their much more important Boat Race sorted out).
Usually there can only be one winner ? as in a cup final. And we naturally support our team when it happens. But your chances of doing that are next to nothing. So you shouldn't really bother should you? Man Utd didn't a few years back.
That's not how sport works. 'Shit lads, no chance of winning a title/cup this year, fuck off home'. I personally dislike titles, cups, gold medals and ? not for the sake of the franchise owners ? relagation. I've seen and been involved with thousands of people producing fabulous sporting occasions without any of that.
Yes, Everton is a massively successful football club. Don't ask me, ask supporters of Birmigham and Portsmouth.
A cup win back in '84 didn't do us any harm...
I'd love to win the FA Cup this year, it could give us the push on for next year, especially with all these CLASS kids we've got coming through...
I'd love to win the FA Cup this year, it could give us the push on for next year, especially with all these CLASS kids we've got coming through...
Dave
I thought the Arse had spent more seasons in the top flight, perhaps that was consecutives?
Got to say some of the opinions have really surprised me. That said, few have actually answered the question.
I thought the Arse had spent more seasons in the top flight, perhaps that was consecutives?
Got to say some of the opinions have really surprised me. That said, few have actually answered the question.
I think the two have to go hand in hand. Everyone wants a cup win, but no one wants to remember a bad team winning it. You want to look back at a certain vintage, a team that was going places and the cup was part of that. You don't want to look back thinking oh yeah remember that year we were awful in the league and had a rubbish team but got lucky and fluked our way to a cup? That's the only thing about the 95 win, a great memory but there's always that lurking feeling at the back of your mind that that team wasn't really worthy to sit alongside some of the other cup winning Everton sides.
Re Top Flight Footy: Everton the most in total... Arsenal the most consecutive seasons.
Arsenal were promoted under highly dubious circumstances in 1912(?), at the expense of Tottenham Hotspur(!) and have never been relegated.
Arsenal were promoted under highly dubious circumstances in 1912(?), at the expense of Tottenham Hotspur(!) and have never been relegated.
Stephen, I wouldn't accept relegation in favour of winning the FA Cup but I'd accept finishes between tenth and fifteenth for the next 5 years if we could win the cup in one of those seasons.
Those 3 days when I've been fortunate enough to see our great centre backs lifting the cup at Wembley were just magical, and the prospect of seeing it again is what keep me going.
Those 3 days when I've been fortunate enough to see our great centre backs lifting the cup at Wembley were just magical, and the prospect of seeing it again is what keep me going.
James Martin - you can't have it both ways. That's the whole point of the OP.
I guess its what you deem as success and I'm sure this has been done to death in previous threads but success to me is cups not finishing fourth or fifth or seventeenth or an LMA, its getting to a final and winning it and then the open top bus tour and the smug satisfaction of your team being the current holders of a cup or title. I'm old enough to have seen titles and cups including that night in Rotterdam.
These fourth places and the like are just an existence, football is gradually becoming a turn off with the gaps betweens the haves and have not getting wider as each season goes by. Other than one final we've not come close since 1995 which is the sad state we are in.
These fourth places and the like are just an existence, football is gradually becoming a turn off with the gaps betweens the haves and have not getting wider as each season goes by. Other than one final we've not come close since 1995 which is the sad state we are in.
Nick,
You couldn't give us a few predictions for tomorrow while your on a roll could ya???
You couldn't give us a few predictions for tomorrow while your on a roll could ya???
Didn't know Milan played anyone under the age of 40 Ste, but they do!
Shocked myself TBH Nick. Thought Arsenal would run the legs off them.
Securing the services of Tim Cahill, Mikel Arteta, Phil Jagielka, Steven Pienaar and Seamus Coleman and joleon lescott for less than £15 million in total is not a success but its excellent business. A net spend of £16m in 10 premiership seasons but with 7 top 10 finishes, including 2 5th's and a top 4 finish is a fucking miracle but thats not a success either.
Birmingham and Pompey have been more succesful but you can stick that success up your arse.
Its no coincidence that the only clubs to win the FA cup in the last 5 years are the biggest spenders on players, bar Pompey who just spent money they didnt have. Its the same with the league.
The winners of the league in the next 5 years will come from 1 of Utd, City or Chelsea... and there is nothing anyone else can do about it. Except maybe winning a 2nd rate shiny cup.
Birmingham and Pompey have been more succesful but you can stick that success up your arse.
Its no coincidence that the only clubs to win the FA cup in the last 5 years are the biggest spenders on players, bar Pompey who just spent money they didnt have. Its the same with the league.
The winners of the league in the next 5 years will come from 1 of Utd, City or Chelsea... and there is nothing anyone else can do about it. Except maybe winning a 2nd rate shiny cup.
Securing the services of Tim Cahill, Mikel Arteta, Phil Jagielka, Steven Pienaar and Seamus Coleman and joleon lescott for less than £15 million in total is not a success but its excellent business. A net spend of £16m in 10 premiership seasons but with 7 top 10 finishes, including 2 5th's and a top 4 finish is a fucking miracle but thats not a success either.
Birmingham and Pompey have been more succesful but you can stick that success up your arse.
Its no coincidence that the only clubs to win the FA cup in the last 5 years are the biggest spenders on players, bar Pompey who just spent money they didnt have. Its the same with the league.
The winners of the league in the next 5 years will come from 1 of Utd, City or Chelsea... and there is nothing anyone else can do about it. Except maybe winning a 2nd rate shiny cup.
Birmingham and Pompey have been more succesful but you can stick that success up your arse.
Its no coincidence that the only clubs to win the FA cup in the last 5 years are the biggest spenders on players, bar Pompey who just spent money they didnt have. Its the same with the league.
The winners of the league in the next 5 years will come from 1 of Utd, City or Chelsea... and there is nothing anyone else can do about it. Except maybe winning a 2nd rate shiny cup.
Only reason to stay in the Premier League is to go on to better things. 100 years of staying in league... or an FA Cup? I'd take the FA Cup every time.
I'm 33 and lucky enough to remember an FA Cup win and to actually see us win it. It's not just picking up the cup, it's the belief and tidal wave that your name is on the cup. Limpar was exceptional, hammering Norwich 5-0, beating Newcastle ? I think that season is one that defined Watson as a legend... going to Elland Rd, shitting myself when talk that Watson wouldn't play... it was a load of shit by the way ? he did play.
Battering Spurs, losers tried to get the game abandoned, travelling down to London the night before the final, Stuart missing a sitter, hitting the bar, Rideout scoring a difficult header off the rebound, Royle inexplicably taking Limpar off, Ferguson clattering Schmeichel, Amokachi not being able to play football in the last couple of mins, Watson getting Man of the Match ? wrongly in my view: it was Southall.
Would I swap that experience for getting in Europe or the Champions League 50 years in a row, or just staying in the league? Would I fuck... and I don't understand anybody who would. Fantastic memories.
I'm 33 and lucky enough to remember an FA Cup win and to actually see us win it. It's not just picking up the cup, it's the belief and tidal wave that your name is on the cup. Limpar was exceptional, hammering Norwich 5-0, beating Newcastle ? I think that season is one that defined Watson as a legend... going to Elland Rd, shitting myself when talk that Watson wouldn't play... it was a load of shit by the way ? he did play.
Battering Spurs, losers tried to get the game abandoned, travelling down to London the night before the final, Stuart missing a sitter, hitting the bar, Rideout scoring a difficult header off the rebound, Royle inexplicably taking Limpar off, Ferguson clattering Schmeichel, Amokachi not being able to play football in the last couple of mins, Watson getting Man of the Match ? wrongly in my view: it was Southall.
Would I swap that experience for getting in Europe or the Champions League 50 years in a row, or just staying in the league? Would I fuck... and I don't understand anybody who would. Fantastic memories.
James 243 - I don't remember other teams we has who won the cup . But I thought the team we had was full of winners and would be surprised if there were many better players than south all , Watson , Parkinson limpar .
Once royle took over we showed what a good team team we were beating Liverpool united twice Chelsea Newcastle spurs etc . I think it's disrespectful what you say . We weren't best team but we were the most determined and that can take you a long long way
Once royle took over we showed what a good team team we were beating Liverpool united twice Chelsea Newcastle spurs etc . I think it's disrespectful what you say . We weren't best team but we were the most determined and that can take you a long long way
Football is about winning things - it always has been and always will be.
However a new version of actual 'success' in recent years was to finish in the top 4/6. Now for clubs like Everton, success can be determined by staying in the PL and / or having a decent Cup run.
We haven't got the cash (yet) to compete at the top, so have to happy with our lot.
I'm lucky enough to have seen Everton will all kinds - not everyone is in that boat though.
It'll make it even more special when we win the next trophy, coz it's been such a hard slog since the last one.
NSNO
However a new version of actual 'success' in recent years was to finish in the top 4/6. Now for clubs like Everton, success can be determined by staying in the PL and / or having a decent Cup run.
We haven't got the cash (yet) to compete at the top, so have to happy with our lot.
I'm lucky enough to have seen Everton will all kinds - not everyone is in that boat though.
It'll make it even more special when we win the next trophy, coz it's been such a hard slog since the last one.
NSNO
Just as aside, IMHO even though it was fantastic seeing EFC in the FA Cup final, I have to admit that the competition itself does not have the same 'kudos" as in yesteryear.
I'm wondering if the FA gave the FA Cup winner (only) the 4th qualifying spot for UCL whether that would change things?
I'm wondering if the FA gave the FA Cup winner (only) the 4th qualifying spot for UCL whether that would change things?
Wow. Not sure wether i'm flattered or not to be mentioned in the OP. Also not sure wether i would describe myself as pro-Moyes. Guess on balance i am but hopefully never blindly so. The man has several faults but over all i do feel he's done a good job by us and done it with integrity often lacking in todays game.
Anyway, to the original question. I think trophies and the memories/bragging rights they provide are invaluable and would happily see us come 15th for the next 4 seasons if we could win the FA cup. My concern would be that in this age of premiership reward that if we did get relegated our already precarious finances would not survive and we could likely do a Leeds and dissapear into the lower leagues never to return to the premiership. THAT i would not risk for one day of glory.
Anyway, to the original question. I think trophies and the memories/bragging rights they provide are invaluable and would happily see us come 15th for the next 4 seasons if we could win the FA cup. My concern would be that in this age of premiership reward that if we did get relegated our already precarious finances would not survive and we could likely do a Leeds and dissapear into the lower leagues never to return to the premiership. THAT i would not risk for one day of glory.
@252 Have to agree it's all about winning something for me. Fourth is just that fourth. Sadly these days that is more prestigious than a cup win.
If we get past Blackpool we will
Win the FA Cup
4/1 odds it's our year
Win the FA Cup
4/1 odds it's our year
I have always thought oneof the more idiotic pieces of so called logic churned out by the anti Moyes brigade was the "What's he ever won?" mantra. The man has given what was a basket case of a team when he arrived huge stability and respect, almost always in the top half of the PL, often top 6. I'd take that over a day out at Wembley followed by disaster (like Portsmouth) any day.
If we didn't have our top flight status record then maybe I would think a little more about a Cup and Relegation, however as it stands, 17th and a Cup yes definitely.
The League is boring. We're not going to win the league any time soon, so it's only about qualifying for Europe, why not just play our best team in the Cup instead. The League is dull. I really do not care whether we finish 8th or 14th or whether. It will be completely unmemorable the day after the final match.
The League is boring. We're not going to win the league any time soon, so it's only about qualifying for Europe, why not just play our best team in the Cup instead. The League is dull. I really do not care whether we finish 8th or 14th or whether. It will be completely unmemorable the day after the final match.
Michael [244], you are correct in stating that Everton have spent the longest period in English top flight football (four seasons in Division Two) and that Arsenal have the longest unbroken membership in the top flight, but it was from 1919 to the present day.
You are also correct in stating that they were promoted at the expense of Tottenham Hotspur, who together with Chelsea, finished in the relegation places when football was suspended in 1915. (Arsenal finished in fifth position in Division Two that season.)
When football resumed in 1919, the First Division was increased from twenty teams to twenty two, and instead of retaining the existing members and promoting the top two from Division Two (which they had done when the league was extended in 1905) they relegated Tottenham Hotspur and promoted Arsenal.
A lot of football followers mistakenly believe that Arsenal have never been relegated, they were in fact relegated in 1913 when they were known as Woolwich Arsenal.
You are also correct in stating that they were promoted at the expense of Tottenham Hotspur, who together with Chelsea, finished in the relegation places when football was suspended in 1915. (Arsenal finished in fifth position in Division Two that season.)
When football resumed in 1919, the First Division was increased from twenty teams to twenty two, and instead of retaining the existing members and promoting the top two from Division Two (which they had done when the league was extended in 1905) they relegated Tottenham Hotspur and promoted Arsenal.
A lot of football followers mistakenly believe that Arsenal have never been relegated, they were in fact relegated in 1913 when they were known as Woolwich Arsenal.
Hi John,
Thanks for all that ? I used to know such stuff when I was a regular "Charles Buchan's Football Monthly" reader.
Other "interesting" facts are Spurs being the only non-League and Cardiff the only non-English FA Cup winners.
Thanks for all that ? I used to know such stuff when I was a regular "Charles Buchan's Football Monthly" reader.
Other "interesting" facts are Spurs being the only non-League and Cardiff the only non-English FA Cup winners.
Howard, so what exactly have Everton won and how the fuck is a straight forward question and blank answer a nonsense?
When asked a straight question, "What would cheer you up?" as an answer, some politician-like meandering pish about LMAs and stability...
And if so, can you un-politician like explain how Everton Football Club won an LMA? As those were won by the manager.
And how is it you win stability exactly?
When asked a straight question, "What would cheer you up?" as an answer, some politician-like meandering pish about LMAs and stability...
And if so, can you un-politician like explain how Everton Football Club won an LMA? As those were won by the manager.
And how is it you win stability exactly?
Howard,
No amount of stability will equal the thrill, pride, and sheer unadulterated fuckin joy of "living" the 60s and 80s with the Blues
No amount of stability will equal the thrill, pride, and sheer unadulterated fuckin joy of "living" the 60s and 80s with the Blues
The league is a valid indicator of a teams ability, whereas the cup is more of a lottery. With a bit of luck, anyone can win the Cup (see Portsmouth 2008). But in the league, the best teams win and the worst ones get relegated. Every year. Without fail.
I'm not sure getting beat by Chelsea in an FA Cup Final, or a League Cup Semi Final is choking.
I'm not sure getting beat by Chelsea in an FA Cup Final, or a League Cup Semi Final is choking.
Getting beat by Shrewsbury, Reading and Oldham is, though, Mark
Phil Bellis 355, you are 100% right about the joy of those times, but you miss the point that in those days, particularly the sixties we had resources to compete with the best. Indeed it could be argued in the early sixties we were the rich boys, being known as "The Mersey Millionaires" Had any manager won nothing in those days, he could indeed have been deemed a failure. Not so in our skint present state.
Gavin 354 - sorry mate haven't got a clue what you're going on about. I never mentioned LMAs, even had to think for a while as to what they were.
Gavin 354 - sorry mate haven't got a clue what you're going on about. I never mentioned LMAs, even had to think for a while as to what they were.
Mark,
I agree about the league and I agree we were beaten by the better side both times in the cups.
I disagree with Pompey winning the FA cup via a lottery. They beat some good sides including Man Utd to get into that final.
I don't feel that the FA cup has lost it's magic. I remember singing in every pub on County Rd going on till the early hours the day we beat Boro. People walking up the street singing to themselves. Z-cars getting whistled by seemingly every arl fella I happened to walk past for about a week afterwards and car stickers and flags everywhere in the build up to Wembley.
I agree about the league and I agree we were beaten by the better side both times in the cups.
I disagree with Pompey winning the FA cup via a lottery. They beat some good sides including Man Utd to get into that final.
I don't feel that the FA cup has lost it's magic. I remember singing in every pub on County Rd going on till the early hours the day we beat Boro. People walking up the street singing to themselves. Z-cars getting whistled by seemingly every arl fella I happened to walk past for about a week afterwards and car stickers and flags everywhere in the build up to Wembley.
"No, no other team"
"has for 100 years reigned supreme"
"Were the first in the game"
"To have that claim to fame"
"There really is no other team"
I`m sure remember these lyrics blasting out of the Goodison P A system. I think it was before the first game of our 100th year in the top flight . .but I may have dreamed it because I havent heard of the song since
Somebody Help me out
"has for 100 years reigned supreme"
"Were the first in the game"
"To have that claim to fame"
"There really is no other team"
I`m sure remember these lyrics blasting out of the Goodison P A system. I think it was before the first game of our 100th year in the top flight . .but I may have dreamed it because I havent heard of the song since
Somebody Help me out
On the other hand, Howard, in the 80s we built a team around the McMahon money, local lads, a Lpool reserve, 2 arl crocks with dodgy knees, a teenager from Burnley, an ex-binman and a goal-machine from Tranmere Rovers
Dave its called "No Other Team" and the pyrics are on the Everton Aren't We website containing a lot of our songs
http://www.evertonarentwe.com/chants/mainstream-songs/
http://www.evertonarentwe.com/chants/mainstream-songs/
For me, the domestic cup competitions are massive, both can gain European qualification, meaning an increase in revenue of circa £5M, but, much more importantly, the day out at the most famous stadium in the world.
I have been lucky enough to watch Everton lift two FA cups at Wembley, and lose a couple as well, and for those of you who haven't, you can't even comment on what it means until you have.
I have been lucky enough to watch Everton lift two FA cups at Wembley, and lose a couple as well, and for those of you who haven't, you can't even comment on what it means until you have.
Nice one Gavin
Ciaran (276) I think the idea of giving the 4th CL place to the FA Cup Winners was floated a few years back, until everyone realised that the Sky 4 would never allow it, and would set off the corporate lawyers against the FA the minute any plans were proposed.
However, since 6 (or 7) into 4 won't go, it may be that a certain influential member of the Sky 4 who ain't going to see a Top 4 place in the foreseeable future may bring some influence to bear.......!
However, since 6 (or 7) into 4 won't go, it may be that a certain influential member of the Sky 4 who ain't going to see a Top 4 place in the foreseeable future may bring some influence to bear.......!
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153 Posted 15/02/2012 at 15:03:50
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