Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Being greater than the club
117 Comments: What is greatness? It is the state of being great. One of the stock football fans' phrases is "no-one is greater than the club". I have used it myself, in fact I used it when my friends talked about Rooney leaving. I have used it when people have talked about Moyes leaving, but then I stopped to think about it.
When people say "no manager is bigger than a club" or "no player is bigger than a club", what are you saying? On a clear obvious level, the club existed before and after the player or manager so therefore the club must be greater. Fair enough, I accept that. But that would mean the word 'greater' means being around longer than ? not 'greatness' in anyway.
If people think a player or a manager can't be greater than a club then they are deluded. Players who are better are sold, Rooney is better than Everton. Hence he plays at Man Utd who are a better club. Rooney does not define Everton, much like a manager does not define the club. But are Man Utd better with Alex Ferguson than they have been before? Yes. You could even say, Man Utd have a good possibly of being a poorer club under a different manager.
So the same is true of Everton; is Moyes greater than Everton? In a way... yes, he is. Do we have a very good chance of being a poorer club under a different manager? Yes. Everton will be around a lot longer than the manager... but has Moyes improved things? Yes, Has he brought in better players? Yes. Do others in the game and outside the game consider him a great manager? Yes.
People keep saying Moyes is rubbish because he didn't play Drenthe or Stracqualursi and he does not like those players. He bought them into the club. Why would he bring in players he does not like? The reason we have those choices on the bench is because of Moyes, so the only reason you can complain in the first place is because he did something.
I have watched Drenthe play this season and he blows hot and cold, he is exciting to watch, but often gives the ball away, and often runs head down. Under Moyes I think he has improved and hope like others before he stays and becomes a great player. Stracq is the same, this is a guy who wants to play for Moyes, too many people dismiss what a great job David does at motivating players to keep working.
I would love to see Everton in a 4-4-2, with Stracq and Jelavic up front, and when I see the team sheet, I wonder why he has gone with just 1 upfront, but history tells me he knows best, he has generally got it right and he might not be perfect... but he is a lot better than the alternative.
Tim Locke, Posted 19/02/2012 at 23:47:47
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Should Moyes sign another long contract and he continues with the same philosophy there could be several generations of Evertonians never to have seen us win anything.
Already, there are thousands that have devoted a large chunk of their match-going experience ? not to mention a small fortune and emotional attachment ? being looked upon throughout the land as objects of pity.
They have paid heavily for the right to demand something to be proud about. If Moyes cannot provide it, someone else should be given the opportunity.
Already, there are thousands that have devoted a large chunk of their match-going experience ? not to mention a small fortune and emotional attachment ? being looked upon throughout the land as objects of pity.
They have paid heavily for the right to demand something to be proud about. If Moyes cannot provide it, someone else should be given the opportunity.
I'm going to try and not be too harsh but this just really wound me up for some reason ( it doesn't take much).
Did you just cut and paste two different articles together or is this just like some random stream of consciousness?
Rooney is bigger than Everton because he signed for Man Utd? Ferguson is in turn bigger than Man Utd because they have been more successful under him than any other manager? Moyes is bigger than Everton because he brought in fucking Stracqualursi and Drenthe on loan for the season? Moyes likes them really, even though some people say he doesn't, because why else would he invite them to his party? Drenthe is good but he's also a bit rubbish? Stracq is like a big Chucky doll and just want's to play? You want to play 4-4-2 , not 4-5-1, but if Moyes want's to play 4-5-1 then 4-5-1 must be better because Moyes say's so and Moyes is now officially 'greater' than Everton even though he's not perfect?
Your whole argument is about as fumbling, grasping and stretched as Heather Mills's arm in the morning after her leg has rolled tantalisingly out of reach under the bed.
Did you just cut and paste two different articles together or is this just like some random stream of consciousness?
Rooney is bigger than Everton because he signed for Man Utd? Ferguson is in turn bigger than Man Utd because they have been more successful under him than any other manager? Moyes is bigger than Everton because he brought in fucking Stracqualursi and Drenthe on loan for the season? Moyes likes them really, even though some people say he doesn't, because why else would he invite them to his party? Drenthe is good but he's also a bit rubbish? Stracq is like a big Chucky doll and just want's to play? You want to play 4-4-2 , not 4-5-1, but if Moyes want's to play 4-5-1 then 4-5-1 must be better because Moyes say's so and Moyes is now officially 'greater' than Everton even though he's not perfect?
Your whole argument is about as fumbling, grasping and stretched as Heather Mills's arm in the morning after her leg has rolled tantalisingly out of reach under the bed.
Moyes is much bigger than Everton. He won the LMA manager of the year award, all Everton have won is 9 league titles, 5 FA cups and a European trophy, all without Moyes.
Give your fuckin head a shake...
Give your fuckin head a shake...
I have read many posts on here slagging off Moyes. I cannot believe some of the bile directed towards him!
Many of you have short memories. Our previous few managers had us flirting with relegation season after season - are you happy to go back there?
Yes we do have a distinguished past, but things have changed dramatically.
I too am bewildered at some of his team choices - but we do not see what happens in training, whether players are carrying injuries, are ill, or have personal problems.
The players seem happy with him - even the youngsters who I follow on twitter.
We have NO money - what other manager do you think would come to us should Moyes leave, Would you be happy with Bruce, Megson et al?
Look where Charlton are now after getting rid of Curbishley.
Many of you have short memories. Our previous few managers had us flirting with relegation season after season - are you happy to go back there?
Yes we do have a distinguished past, but things have changed dramatically.
I too am bewildered at some of his team choices - but we do not see what happens in training, whether players are carrying injuries, are ill, or have personal problems.
The players seem happy with him - even the youngsters who I follow on twitter.
We have NO money - what other manager do you think would come to us should Moyes leave, Would you be happy with Bruce, Megson et al?
Look where Charlton are now after getting rid of Curbishley.
Man U may be more successful but what's this better club nonsense? There is no 'better' club than Everton Football Club, that's why we're all here isn't it? Everton are the best, no one else comes close, especially not Man U. Even Rooney knows that, hence his boy being brought up as a Blue instead of a Red Devil. About the last thing I expect to be told when I log onto Toffeeweb is that there are better clubs than Everton.
And Moyes bigger than Everton... has Eusébio played in his back yard?
And Moyes bigger than Everton... has Eusébio played in his back yard?
Tim; Until events you discribe, MU post SAF and EFC post Moyes pan out, your selective use of what is a 50-50 outcome, render your conclusions ( and opinions ) I was going to say worthless, but lets be polite and say 'moot'...aka, a none arguement not proved or provable.
Conjecture at best and just a wankfest for the Moyesiah-istas and a redrag or should that be a bluerag, to those who hold no truck with so called, be careful what you wish for, if not him who else, infallability of Moyes
Conjecture at best and just a wankfest for the Moyesiah-istas and a redrag or should that be a bluerag, to those who hold no truck with so called, be careful what you wish for, if not him who else, infallability of Moyes
Derek, where do you get the 50:50 from. Please back that up based on clubs that in our position that have changed managers in a panic move or lost a good manager and had to change and done better. I'd say based on the Sheffield Wednesdays, Coventrys, Charlton and many, many more that it is heavily biased towards us doing far worse. Look at our current squad assembled for very little, look at how we are playing and be fucking ashamed for hour baseless criticism and lack of support for our great club. All of you that is.
We know the faults and the weaknesses, they get recycled many times a day and there's no need to post them. Why not post some positivity because there is plenty.
We know the faults and the weaknesses, they get recycled many times a day and there's no need to post them. Why not post some positivity because there is plenty.
Tim,
History tell's me that for half a season, every season Moyes get's a lot wrong. Nobody has ever offered up a decent reason why?
That tell's me that there may be room for improvement in the job Moyes is doing.
I'd also echo Mick's comments towards the rest of this Moyes is the greatest diatribe.
History tell's me that for half a season, every season Moyes get's a lot wrong. Nobody has ever offered up a decent reason why?
That tell's me that there may be room for improvement in the job Moyes is doing.
I'd also echo Mick's comments towards the rest of this Moyes is the greatest diatribe.
What is greatness? Well some of the reasoning used in this article is the greatest load of shite I have read on here in a long time.
"Do we have a very good chance of being a poorer club under a different manager? Yes". Why stop there - why not add that we've also a very good chance of being better off with another manager?
Pele for example, may be "greater" than a club such as Crawley Town or Runcorn but David Moyes greater than the fourth most successful club in the history of English football? Not a chance.
"Do we have a very good chance of being a poorer club under a different manager? Yes". Why stop there - why not add that we've also a very good chance of being better off with another manager?
Pele for example, may be "greater" than a club such as Crawley Town or Runcorn but David Moyes greater than the fourth most successful club in the history of English football? Not a chance.
Utter tripe.
Everton are the 4th most successful football club in English football history. I think Moyes himself would qualify genuine success as winning something, of which he's won nothing. I think he'd probably also be the first to say the idea that he's greater than EFC, especially when he's presided over one of the clubs longest barren spells. He's a good manager and I think a good man but until he's got some silverware he can't realistically be described as great, never mind greater than one of the worlds longest standing and decorated sporting institutions. Besides, the whole point of a club is making something greater than the sum of its parts, never mind one of those parts stood on its own. We may be a better club with him in it than out because he raises the average but he's a grain of sand where the club is a beach.
Sorry, typing this on small screen, middle sentence should finish that David Moyes himself would say it was ridiculous.
The only way Moyes can be referred to as "great" will be when his children's children had children.
So greatness is now seemingly defined as a manager who has not actually won anything in the 10 years he has been at the club. Jeez, and there I was thinking we were actually a great club, with a great history.
So we should be grovellingly grateful for having Mr Moyes take time off from his busy schedule to come and manage poor little old Everton FC. Without the great one Everton would presumably implode into nothingness.
If anyone seriously thinks that any single player or manager is greater than the club, they should question themselves and their actual 'support' of Everton.
Just to clarify, no single person is greater than the club. Man U made SAF and not the other way round! Just like EFC allowed Moyes to manage the biggest club he will ever likley manage in his career!
This article is the one of the worst I have ever come across on this site - am surprised it was even allowed on! I am all for people having opinions for or against the manager but this article is taking the piss.
So we should be grovellingly grateful for having Mr Moyes take time off from his busy schedule to come and manage poor little old Everton FC. Without the great one Everton would presumably implode into nothingness.
If anyone seriously thinks that any single player or manager is greater than the club, they should question themselves and their actual 'support' of Everton.
Just to clarify, no single person is greater than the club. Man U made SAF and not the other way round! Just like EFC allowed Moyes to manage the biggest club he will ever likley manage in his career!
This article is the one of the worst I have ever come across on this site - am surprised it was even allowed on! I am all for people having opinions for or against the manager but this article is taking the piss.
"Look where Charlton are now after getting rid of Curbishley. "
Look where Manchester United are now after getting rid of Ron Atkinson.
You can`t really use either as an argument, can you?
What if my mother was a man, and so on...
Look where Manchester United are now after getting rid of Ron Atkinson.
You can`t really use either as an argument, can you?
What if my mother was a man, and so on...
In my book,Moyes has done a great job in stabilising our team after a string of managers provoked great struggle.
By no stretch of the imagnation has he restored Everton to greatness-he would need a great more help from the Board to do that.
Is he great in the sense that Catterick and Kendall 1(both before my time) are held? I think not....but I have great hopes!
By no stretch of the imagnation has he restored Everton to greatness-he would need a great more help from the Board to do that.
Is he great in the sense that Catterick and Kendall 1(both before my time) are held? I think not....but I have great hopes!
Hail Moyes, the God , the Messiah, the one and only, the king of football.
Moyes is not great, not even close to great.
That much is clear, this article just makes you question the concept of IQ, and the fact that some people just do not have any..
Alex Ferguson is dubbed SIR Alex Ferguson for a reason, he is one of the best managers in the world, his record shows that he is a great manager
For anyone to suggest that Moyes is just as great as him is an insult to every title he has won.
I do not mind people supporting our manager, but this has to be the most insane article I have ever read on Toffeeweb.
I think someone has taken too much drugs before writing this article, as you simply have to be high to buy into any of it. :-)
Moyes is not great, not even close to great.
That much is clear, this article just makes you question the concept of IQ, and the fact that some people just do not have any..
Alex Ferguson is dubbed SIR Alex Ferguson for a reason, he is one of the best managers in the world, his record shows that he is a great manager
For anyone to suggest that Moyes is just as great as him is an insult to every title he has won.
I do not mind people supporting our manager, but this has to be the most insane article I have ever read on Toffeeweb.
I think someone has taken too much drugs before writing this article, as you simply have to be high to buy into any of it. :-)
There are many reasons to both praise and criticise Moyes over the course of the last decade, but this just reads as a nonsensical wankfest. Clubs such as Everton, Manchester United, Arsenal, etc. are great football institutions, built up over many decades by the contributions of many great & not so great men. Whatever Ferguson, Wenger, & even Moyes may achieve at their respective clubs will be built on what has gone before - they're all standing on the shoulders of giants. However, to be considered greater than something else, surely one would first have to be considered to be great in the first place &, whilst one may argue about how good or not-so-good a manager Moyes is, surely nobody can claim his track record is one of greatness.
Brave piece Tim.
I think Doddy has it right. Moyes has stabilised and improved the squad and standing of Everton in his time here but is far from from restoring the club to the 'greatness' we all crave. Perhaps an FA cup win might be a big step down that road but realistically no manager in the world would have us competing for the league title under our current financial restrictions....
I think Doddy has it right. Moyes has stabilised and improved the squad and standing of Everton in his time here but is far from from restoring the club to the 'greatness' we all crave. Perhaps an FA cup win might be a big step down that road but realistically no manager in the world would have us competing for the league title under our current financial restrictions....
Howard Kendall Mk One was a great manager...he led Everton to League titles, an FA Cup and our only European trophy. Every time he turns up at Goodison it must be a chastening experience for Moyes.
On first glance I thought this was a wind up but actually it's Moyes fundamentalism at it's most desperate.
You can argue all day but Moyes hasn't won anything and come nowhere near.
One of the mad fundamentalists come on after Blackpool picking a fight because not enough were posting in "Glorious Hossana".
I'd say after 10 yrs we've seen this film a few times - "lottery" stuff as MK says - mostly crap then out of nowhere a brief purple patch. Extrapolating Moyes is bigger than Everton on the basis that this stuff keeps us up is complete bollocks.
You can argue all day but Moyes hasn't won anything and come nowhere near.
One of the mad fundamentalists come on after Blackpool picking a fight because not enough were posting in "Glorious Hossana".
I'd say after 10 yrs we've seen this film a few times - "lottery" stuff as MK says - mostly crap then out of nowhere a brief purple patch. Extrapolating Moyes is bigger than Everton on the basis that this stuff keeps us up is complete bollocks.
Jimmy, Alex Ferguson is not dubbed Sir Alex Ferguson. He is Sir Alex Ferguson. Keep going, I'm sure we'll agree on something soon enough!
Martim Mason 142; Tim specifically mentions MU before and after SAF. There are only 2 (count them ) options Big Ron Vs SAF or SAF Vs an other, looks like a 50-50 chance to me. Same with Moyes.
The thread is about Everton, with MU as an example. So why Wednesday Covenrty, Charlton. Just because their managerial decision went one way it could have gone the other, yet another 50-50
If SAF quits it is not automatic that they will be poorer, they could be better, 2 chances, yep 50-50.
Same with Moyes 50-50
Backing up one none arguement with another, now thats not 50-50.
The thread is about Everton, with MU as an example. So why Wednesday Covenrty, Charlton. Just because their managerial decision went one way it could have gone the other, yet another 50-50
If SAF quits it is not automatic that they will be poorer, they could be better, 2 chances, yep 50-50.
Same with Moyes 50-50
Backing up one none arguement with another, now thats not 50-50.
Well said, Rory
There is no better football club than Everton
And, yes, Tim, I got the joke but you went a bit too far with the "better" remark
It's like an Evertonian calling Everton a small club
Our day will come, but it still seems like the middle of the night under the present setup
I feel we've got the makings of a top side now, we just need a bit of luck and Moysesy to let go of the leash
There is no better football club than Everton
And, yes, Tim, I got the joke but you went a bit too far with the "better" remark
It's like an Evertonian calling Everton a small club
Our day will come, but it still seems like the middle of the night under the present setup
I feel we've got the makings of a top side now, we just need a bit of luck and Moysesy to let go of the leash
I am very frustrated with my feeling on this one as are most blues I speak to on a daily basis.
On one hand you have a manager who has got the belief back otherwise we wouldn't have the expectation. All the European qualifications on a poor budget and some excellent signings.
However on the other hand we have a manager with an absolute stubborn refusal to change formation , negative tactics and worrying indications there are no alternatives in his skills.
Personally this season I have been thinking it may be time for a change due to the let's not get beat attitude displayed first and foremost. However I don't think I can fully decide until proper investment arrives .
COYB
On one hand you have a manager who has got the belief back otherwise we wouldn't have the expectation. All the European qualifications on a poor budget and some excellent signings.
However on the other hand we have a manager with an absolute stubborn refusal to change formation , negative tactics and worrying indications there are no alternatives in his skills.
Personally this season I have been thinking it may be time for a change due to the let's not get beat attitude displayed first and foremost. However I don't think I can fully decide until proper investment arrives .
COYB
Steve Guy (164) Now that statement is funny.
'Howard Kendall Mk One was a great manager... he led Everton to League titles, an FA Cup and our only European trophy. Every time he turns up at Goodison it must be a chastening experience for Moyes'.
What about HK2 & HK3? That's quite a myopic viewpoint.
Apart from Joe Royle, in the last 20 years we have been pretty shite until Moyes took over. I disagree with the greatness thing as he hasn't won nothing nor made us play amazingly great. But he has given us our pride back and confidence in our team where we are naturally thinking that we should be challenging instead of shitting ourselves hoping we are gonna stay up.
'Howard Kendall Mk One was a great manager... he led Everton to League titles, an FA Cup and our only European trophy. Every time he turns up at Goodison it must be a chastening experience for Moyes'.
What about HK2 & HK3? That's quite a myopic viewpoint.
Apart from Joe Royle, in the last 20 years we have been pretty shite until Moyes took over. I disagree with the greatness thing as he hasn't won nothing nor made us play amazingly great. But he has given us our pride back and confidence in our team where we are naturally thinking that we should be challenging instead of shitting ourselves hoping we are gonna stay up.
This time next year will it be another case of Groundhog day or to use Peter Laings words on another post
'I wish the season started in January'.
As professor Julius Sumner Miller would say, 'Why is that so?'
Will it be because our squad does not hit its straps until 5 or 6 weeks after every other club has started their campaigns' Those are Moyes own words.
Unlike the professor he does not give any reason why that is so.
To have the same situation year on year is not the sign of a great manager.
'I wish the season started in January'.
As professor Julius Sumner Miller would say, 'Why is that so?'
Will it be because our squad does not hit its straps until 5 or 6 weeks after every other club has started their campaigns' Those are Moyes own words.
Unlike the professor he does not give any reason why that is so.
To have the same situation year on year is not the sign of a great manager.
You've got it in nutshell Phil (171), I think that's how most of us feel about Moyes, especially the investment part.
I see a lot of posters on here willfully trying to ignore the money issues that are affecting the squad but you can't keep burying your heads in the sand. The game has changed; without money, you can compete but not all of the time. Good examples are City & Arsenal, one was a yo-yo team and the other was winning titles and cups every season. Money has definitely changed that dynamic. Today we have former Arsenal players saying they must break their £100k per week wages structure to compete with the teams at the top.
I see a lot of posters on here willfully trying to ignore the money issues that are affecting the squad but you can't keep burying your heads in the sand. The game has changed; without money, you can compete but not all of the time. Good examples are City & Arsenal, one was a yo-yo team and the other was winning titles and cups every season. Money has definitely changed that dynamic. Today we have former Arsenal players saying they must break their £100k per week wages structure to compete with the teams at the top.
Moyes is a good manager who has done well given the financial restraints he has had to work under.
But GREAT??? Dont make me laugh!
Another thing - Richard Dodd is too young to remember HK1??
Am I the only one to have had a mental image of him (and no offence intended here Richard) as a fifty something?
But GREAT??? Dont make me laugh!
Another thing - Richard Dodd is too young to remember HK1??
Am I the only one to have had a mental image of him (and no offence intended here Richard) as a fifty something?
Of course no one is greater than any club... when Ferguson finally leaves Utd, do you think he'll have 75,000 fans cheering him along as he eats his porridge and prines every morning? Not one single filthy little Utd fan will give a shit what he does after he leaves, becasue the club is what's important.
On a seperate issue. Steven Kenny (143): The reason we are shit at the start of every season is because Billy Bollocks has fuck all to invest in the team in the summer. Then all of a sudden January comes round, and we get a couple of decent loans in, and the mood starts to lift a little, positivity finally creeps into the players, and we win a few games. Then we head into May, and we're left with the bare bones of a squad, and likely sell off whoever isn't shit.
I'm not saying Moyes would win the league if he had £100m to spend, but the reason we're crap for half the season certainly isn't just his fault.
On a seperate issue. Steven Kenny (143): The reason we are shit at the start of every season is because Billy Bollocks has fuck all to invest in the team in the summer. Then all of a sudden January comes round, and we get a couple of decent loans in, and the mood starts to lift a little, positivity finally creeps into the players, and we win a few games. Then we head into May, and we're left with the bare bones of a squad, and likely sell off whoever isn't shit.
I'm not saying Moyes would win the league if he had £100m to spend, but the reason we're crap for half the season certainly isn't just his fault.
Moyes has won NOTHING
All those trophies in the cabinet have been won by OTHER managers.
So you see another manager might actually be good for us.
All those trophies in the cabinet have been won by OTHER managers.
So you see another manager might actually be good for us.
Phil McKeown #171 ? spot on mate with everything you said with all the positives and negatives of moyes's reign, bar your last line.
I would not trust moyes with my matchday beer money never mind some sort of cash windfall from whoever took over the club. I'm not a moyes fan and havent been for some time, and defo would not trust him with lots of Everton's cash.
My main gripe with this poor article from Tim is the partial sentence of "too many people dismiss what a great job David does at motivating players to keep working"
WTF then happened to his great job of motivating the likes of Saha n Yakubu. In the 2nd half of last season (Yakubu) and the whole of this season (Saha) they were the least motivated players I have seen grace Goodison for as long as I can remember, trudging around the pitch not giving a flying fuck, and I bet their opta stats of these periods are up their with the worst for any strikers in the EPL. 'Keep working' was not part of their matchday ethos/routine and that is down to who ? Moyes, who gets paid £65k a week ? that's who!
I would not trust moyes with my matchday beer money never mind some sort of cash windfall from whoever took over the club. I'm not a moyes fan and havent been for some time, and defo would not trust him with lots of Everton's cash.
My main gripe with this poor article from Tim is the partial sentence of "too many people dismiss what a great job David does at motivating players to keep working"
WTF then happened to his great job of motivating the likes of Saha n Yakubu. In the 2nd half of last season (Yakubu) and the whole of this season (Saha) they were the least motivated players I have seen grace Goodison for as long as I can remember, trudging around the pitch not giving a flying fuck, and I bet their opta stats of these periods are up their with the worst for any strikers in the EPL. 'Keep working' was not part of their matchday ethos/routine and that is down to who ? Moyes, who gets paid £65k a week ? that's who!
Yes Daniel (194), all won by chairmen getting off their backsides and putting money into the teams. No money = no cups; it can't be any more simple than that.
Duncan (184) that's a good shout about no investment in the team pre-season when we are shite and then we pick up in Jan once we have a few loanees.
Duncan (184) that's a good shout about no investment in the team pre-season when we are shite and then we pick up in Jan once we have a few loanees.
John 130 - Not meaning to wind you up, it was more comment reflecting on a lot of mix post I have read. The word bigger and great are used as if to say better, when clearly in the context they are written they mean been around longer, have more history etc. A lot of people think the grass is greener, that change the manager is the solution to the problem, presuming the problem is not winning or playing attacking football. But the problem with this argument it is from silence and has little or no evidence to support it. I don't mind if people want Moyes out but I want to see people say who they want in place and why he would do a better job. I don't think we could get a decent manager in. My comment about Drenthe and Staq was he brought them in, it's not like the fans got them in, the fans want to play them but as Lynn 137 pointed out we only see what happens on the weekend. I don't want to return to the boom bust days, sat on the edge on my seat thinking championship here we come, if you can come up with a better financing and manager plan then we have in place, then please let us know.
Noel 145 - Come on then who do you want in his place? and why would he be better? I am yet to read anyone give a good replace to Moyes.
The sad reality is the game has changed a lot in recent years and is a game of money. Everton have a side that should finish in the top 8. Everton fans then complain it is not top four or top one, but you have to be realistic. Its like sat in a three wheeled car arguing you should faster than a porsche. We don't have money, so we have to hope that we develop good players and buy the odd bargain, something Moyes has good a very good record with. People will say I am unambitious and risk adverse, but I remember the 90's all too well and they were dark days. So I would like to see what the next 5 years bring under Moyes rather than anyone else, but if people have better ideas lets hear them.
Noel 145 - Come on then who do you want in his place? and why would he be better? I am yet to read anyone give a good replace to Moyes.
The sad reality is the game has changed a lot in recent years and is a game of money. Everton have a side that should finish in the top 8. Everton fans then complain it is not top four or top one, but you have to be realistic. Its like sat in a three wheeled car arguing you should faster than a porsche. We don't have money, so we have to hope that we develop good players and buy the odd bargain, something Moyes has good a very good record with. People will say I am unambitious and risk adverse, but I remember the 90's all too well and they were dark days. So I would like to see what the next 5 years bring under Moyes rather than anyone else, but if people have better ideas lets hear them.
Tim,
Show me where (here or on any other thread) I have said I want anyone to replace Moyes.
My point was that your reasoning for claiming that Moyes is "greater" than Everton is flawed e.g. you said we MIGHT be worse off without Moyes, so I countered by saying we MIGHT also be better off without him. So because I disagree with you, that means I must want rid of him?
And since you ask, yes I believe there are others who could, hypothetically, do better. Just remember where Moyes was before he came to Everton before you dismiss that notion.
Show me where (here or on any other thread) I have said I want anyone to replace Moyes.
My point was that your reasoning for claiming that Moyes is "greater" than Everton is flawed e.g. you said we MIGHT be worse off without Moyes, so I countered by saying we MIGHT also be better off without him. So because I disagree with you, that means I must want rid of him?
And since you ask, yes I believe there are others who could, hypothetically, do better. Just remember where Moyes was before he came to Everton before you dismiss that notion.
I am very frustrated with my feeling on this one as are most blues I speak to on a daily basis.
On one hand you have a manager who has got the belief back otherwise we wouldn't have the expectation. All the European qualifications on a poor budget and some excellent signings.
However on the other hand we have a manager with an absolute stubborn refusal to change formation , negative tactics and worrying indications there are no alternatives in his skills.
Personally this season I have been thinking it may be time for a change due to the let's not get beat attitude displayed first and foremost. However I don't think I can fully decide until proper investment arrives .
COYB
On one hand you have a manager who has got the belief back otherwise we wouldn't have the expectation. All the European qualifications on a poor budget and some excellent signings.
However on the other hand we have a manager with an absolute stubborn refusal to change formation , negative tactics and worrying indications there are no alternatives in his skills.
Personally this season I have been thinking it may be time for a change due to the let's not get beat attitude displayed first and foremost. However I don't think I can fully decide until proper investment arrives .
COYB
Mark @ 183, that would explain some of Richard's opinions, the last few are the best he has seen in his time as an Evertonian.
Those of us who remember Gordon Lee before Kendall and probably a better memory than Richard of some of the crap that came after the 'Glory Days of the 80s' just know it's all part of being an Evertonian
Those of us who remember Gordon Lee before Kendall and probably a better memory than Richard of some of the crap that came after the 'Glory Days of the 80s' just know it's all part of being an Evertonian
Tim
I would consider myself pro-Moyes which puts me in the majority of Evertonians but probably in a minority of posters on this site. I see we are now described as fundamentalists by Barry Rathbone which did made me chuckle.
However, I think you may be stretching your point way too far. David Moyes has brought relative stability to this club with limited resources. He has however won nothing. You could argue and I would that that is a relatively good return in a league dominated by spending power and no matter how you look at it money buys trophies, it is impossible to argue the facts any other way. Where the main area of argument lies as far as I see it that some people feel a different manager with the same resources could do a lot better. That's a fair enough point, I'm just not convinced myself. I don't see the grass being greener and potentially it could be a whole lot more shit coloured.
David Moyes cannot be described a a great manager and the sad fact is he may never get the chance to prove it one way or the other if something in our boardroom does not change.
I would consider myself pro-Moyes which puts me in the majority of Evertonians but probably in a minority of posters on this site. I see we are now described as fundamentalists by Barry Rathbone which did made me chuckle.
However, I think you may be stretching your point way too far. David Moyes has brought relative stability to this club with limited resources. He has however won nothing. You could argue and I would that that is a relatively good return in a league dominated by spending power and no matter how you look at it money buys trophies, it is impossible to argue the facts any other way. Where the main area of argument lies as far as I see it that some people feel a different manager with the same resources could do a lot better. That's a fair enough point, I'm just not convinced myself. I don't see the grass being greener and potentially it could be a whole lot more shit coloured.
David Moyes cannot be described a a great manager and the sad fact is he may never get the chance to prove it one way or the other if something in our boardroom does not change.
I thought I'd use the text space to ask a question to our blues down under rather than comment on this absolutely terrible article.
Do any of you know anything about this Jake Adelson kid we have signed? 16 years old from NSW.
Do any of you know anything about this Jake Adelson kid we have signed? 16 years old from NSW.
Phil McKeown #171
Just playing devils advocate here, you say:
'On one hand you have a manager who has got the belief back otherwise we wouldn't have the expectation ...
However on the other hand we have a manager with an absolute stubborn refusal to change formation , negative tactics'
Strikes me that if this manager HAS brought the belief back, has got us fighting for European places with the budget of a lower mid to low table club, has transformed us from a relegation candidates, then perhaps the safety first/cautious approach has worked for him? There is a common suggestion that with a different approach we could have cracked into the top four. That is supposition and there is neither any evidence that it would work here nor is there any precedent whereby it has worked elsewhere. In fact, categorically, it has not! The fact is, be it pretty or not, that of all the managers outside the big spenders, David Moyes consistently picks up more points than the rest. Those who go on about Harry Redknapp and Martin O'Neill will do well to remember that there was nothing between Everton and Villa even though the latter had money in the transfer window and ~ £20m bigger annual salary. And before the former took over the third biggest spenders in the transfer market (outside Chelsea and City, and consistently for a decade) with an annual salary nearly double that of Everton, his Pompey or Southampton sides finished below Everton 4 out of 5 times. Including one relegation. All too often I read 'if only we hadn't drawn away to Wigan we'd have ...'. Its bollocks! The league is a marathon not a sprint (apologies for the cliche) and is not shaped by individual results. In the premier league any team can beat any other on their day. Even a bottom of the league Blackburn can tonk Man Utd 3-0! If it didn't work like that the league would be a pretty dull affair and the bookies wouldnt have such a lucrative business! Also if we are taking back the points we 'dropped' against Wigan, are Chelsea and Man City (etc) picking up the points they dropped against us? Are Liverpool picking up the points they 'dropped' against teams like Wigan and West Brom, too? The beauty of the league is that it's the cumulative number of points collected over a season and without fail, the best teams win and the worst ones go down. And pretty much every year under DM we finish just as high (or higher) than we realistically should. Just maybe, in terms of number of points gained over the course of a season, with a mediocre squad and small budget, Moyes cautious approach has worked?
Just being devils advocate, like I said.
Just playing devils advocate here, you say:
'On one hand you have a manager who has got the belief back otherwise we wouldn't have the expectation ...
However on the other hand we have a manager with an absolute stubborn refusal to change formation , negative tactics'
Strikes me that if this manager HAS brought the belief back, has got us fighting for European places with the budget of a lower mid to low table club, has transformed us from a relegation candidates, then perhaps the safety first/cautious approach has worked for him? There is a common suggestion that with a different approach we could have cracked into the top four. That is supposition and there is neither any evidence that it would work here nor is there any precedent whereby it has worked elsewhere. In fact, categorically, it has not! The fact is, be it pretty or not, that of all the managers outside the big spenders, David Moyes consistently picks up more points than the rest. Those who go on about Harry Redknapp and Martin O'Neill will do well to remember that there was nothing between Everton and Villa even though the latter had money in the transfer window and ~ £20m bigger annual salary. And before the former took over the third biggest spenders in the transfer market (outside Chelsea and City, and consistently for a decade) with an annual salary nearly double that of Everton, his Pompey or Southampton sides finished below Everton 4 out of 5 times. Including one relegation. All too often I read 'if only we hadn't drawn away to Wigan we'd have ...'. Its bollocks! The league is a marathon not a sprint (apologies for the cliche) and is not shaped by individual results. In the premier league any team can beat any other on their day. Even a bottom of the league Blackburn can tonk Man Utd 3-0! If it didn't work like that the league would be a pretty dull affair and the bookies wouldnt have such a lucrative business! Also if we are taking back the points we 'dropped' against Wigan, are Chelsea and Man City (etc) picking up the points they dropped against us? Are Liverpool picking up the points they 'dropped' against teams like Wigan and West Brom, too? The beauty of the league is that it's the cumulative number of points collected over a season and without fail, the best teams win and the worst ones go down. And pretty much every year under DM we finish just as high (or higher) than we realistically should. Just maybe, in terms of number of points gained over the course of a season, with a mediocre squad and small budget, Moyes cautious approach has worked?
Just being devils advocate, like I said.
Andrew I was chosen in 68/69 so I skipped to Goodison Park every other saturday morning and trudged home swearing "never again" many a saturday evening during Binghams and Lees reigns but I never ever got as apathetic as I have done for some periods during David Moyes time.
This may be somewhat down to the exuberance of youth and rose tinted memories but even in the 70's being at Goodison park watching Lyons, Dobson, Mackenzie, Rioch, Latchford, Thomas, Smallman (sorry - I thought he was the new messiah!) etc was never boring.
Moyes is alright - but not great!
This may be somewhat down to the exuberance of youth and rose tinted memories but even in the 70's being at Goodison park watching Lyons, Dobson, Mackenzie, Rioch, Latchford, Thomas, Smallman (sorry - I thought he was the new messiah!) etc was never boring.
Moyes is alright - but not great!
Mark stone - some constructive points amongst that rant
I am trying to offer an argument from both sides of the fence , it doesn't appear you are trying to play devils advocate at all .
Perhaps moyes has achieved the maximum from the squad at his disposal , perhaps not. We will never know due to his refusal to be more adventurous presently . I for one think that its a sad state of affairs for the supposed best league in the world if that brand of football and negativity and somewhat naive tactics results in the "success" it has brought.
The league has gone downhill in terms of quality and due to the vast amounts of money , managers are now more focused on premiership survival that incorporates negative must not lose tactics. Unfortunately I have placed us in that bracket this season.
I think what we had at our disposal could gave been utilised better than what it has and now that us showing with results since Jan
I am trying to offer an argument from both sides of the fence , it doesn't appear you are trying to play devils advocate at all .
Perhaps moyes has achieved the maximum from the squad at his disposal , perhaps not. We will never know due to his refusal to be more adventurous presently . I for one think that its a sad state of affairs for the supposed best league in the world if that brand of football and negativity and somewhat naive tactics results in the "success" it has brought.
The league has gone downhill in terms of quality and due to the vast amounts of money , managers are now more focused on premiership survival that incorporates negative must not lose tactics. Unfortunately I have placed us in that bracket this season.
I think what we had at our disposal could gave been utilised better than what it has and now that us showing with results since Jan
Mark #237
We are of the same vintage and grew up watching the same players. I think youth may have had something to do with it as my recollection has always been that other than 4 unbelievable years 84-87, supporting Everton has had as many lows as highs and in some years considerably more of the former. However, you always hang on for that next Latchford vs West Ham moment well aware that Frank fucking Lampard Snr is waiting around the corner.
Just to put things into perspective, our average league position is something like:
70s ? 10th
80s ? 6th
90s ? 13th
Moyes ? 7th
And I do believe there are players today that will compare favourably with some of those 70s icons you quote (I will ignore Smallman!). It's just nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
Try Baines, Cahill, Arteta, Jakielka, Piennar for starters.
We are of the same vintage and grew up watching the same players. I think youth may have had something to do with it as my recollection has always been that other than 4 unbelievable years 84-87, supporting Everton has had as many lows as highs and in some years considerably more of the former. However, you always hang on for that next Latchford vs West Ham moment well aware that Frank fucking Lampard Snr is waiting around the corner.
Just to put things into perspective, our average league position is something like:
70s ? 10th
80s ? 6th
90s ? 13th
Moyes ? 7th
And I do believe there are players today that will compare favourably with some of those 70s icons you quote (I will ignore Smallman!). It's just nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
Try Baines, Cahill, Arteta, Jakielka, Piennar for starters.
How do you come to the conclusion that I am not 'playing the devils advocate at all'.
Wiki defines a devils advocate as follows:
'someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position'
That is exactly what I was doing.
Wiki defines a devils advocate as follows:
'someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position'
That is exactly what I was doing.
Should we win the FA cup this season,and I have a good feeling about it, then criticising Moyes will be very difficult. Winning a trophy with an underfunded club will be an extraordinary achievement.
However, it will not deflect from my long held view that the ten years of Moyes are not the best we could possibly have done.
However, it will not deflect from my long held view that the ten years of Moyes are not the best we could possibly have done.
Mark Stone @232 speaks alot of sense.
Very few managers have consistently achieved what Moyes has on a similar budget. He's not perfect and of course has his faults and flaws but in my mind he's done a very good job for us in the last decade.
Very few managers have consistently achieved what Moyes has on a similar budget. He's not perfect and of course has his faults and flaws but in my mind he's done a very good job for us in the last decade.
John Daley, you have the,unfortunate talent of of making a serious point and then making everyone forget about it with an utterly brilliant wisecrack. Keep it going.
I fail to understand the theory on Toffeeweb that some other manager would have done better. If that were the case, then surely one of the lesser teams below us would be threatening our position year on year with "that manager".
Clearly that is not the case and therefore I just dont see any evidence to back up the arguement that someone could have out performed Moyes in the ten years.
That said, I firmly believe that Moyes does not have the faith in the ability and consistency of his squad. That is down to him alone and if he can get past that hurdle we may just see the "great" that some believe him to be.
For me the verdict has not yet arrived and the jury are far from close to a desicion.
I just live in hope more than expectation that soon, very soon we will make the breakthrough.
Clearly that is not the case and therefore I just dont see any evidence to back up the arguement that someone could have out performed Moyes in the ten years.
That said, I firmly believe that Moyes does not have the faith in the ability and consistency of his squad. That is down to him alone and if he can get past that hurdle we may just see the "great" that some believe him to be.
For me the verdict has not yet arrived and the jury are far from close to a desicion.
I just live in hope more than expectation that soon, very soon we will make the breakthrough.
#166 , , , ,"Desperate fundamentalism" !?!?
Nice to see everyone still has a reasonable grasp on reality.
A TW classic, a true laugh out loud post
Nice to see everyone still has a reasonable grasp on reality.
A TW classic, a true laugh out loud post
Tim, sorry but this is bad stuff. We (Everton FC) have alreaday lost a generation of Evertonians due to the club standing still, and some of the worst football ever seen. This cannot carry on. "I would love to see Everton in a 4-4-2, with Stracq and Jelavic up front", if thats the best we can hope for from our current fanbase we may aswell give up.
Yes, Dave,"desperate fundamentalism" is magnificent.
Mark , It appeared to me you were leaning strongly to one side of what I initially suggested and not offering a balanced argument , it suggested to me to you were pro moyes (which is fine ). If I misinterpreted what you were trying to say , I apologise .
I was asking for opinion and offering mine ,
Lets stick to the football , I'm sure wiki has plenty of accurate information to call upon ;-)
I was asking for opinion and offering mine ,
Lets stick to the football , I'm sure wiki has plenty of accurate information to call upon ;-)
Joe
Can you for clarity explain who this lost generation of Evertonians are. Can't see it my family, two sons one daughter and one grandson (a full house by the way) all match going supporters. Do you have access to some data I haven't seen or is that just another of the lazy soundbites so beloved of this site?
Can you for clarity explain who this lost generation of Evertonians are. Can't see it my family, two sons one daughter and one grandson (a full house by the way) all match going supporters. Do you have access to some data I haven't seen or is that just another of the lazy soundbites so beloved of this site?
Graham ? certainly the fact that outside matchdays at Woodison, I very rarely see football shirts worn by under 10's of Everton FC. I'm 4,2 I remember a time when you did, even outside the mid 80's. I don't live in Liverpool, but I used to see a lot more than I do now. Attendances are also down.
I'm very pleased you have a full Everton family but please don't get all righteous, as surely you can see the football we have viewed for the past 20 years is painful. Call it a lazy soundbite if you will, but there is some sense in what I say. Wasn't it 1999 last time we won at Anfield and 1991 the last time we won at Old Trafford? Knife to a gunfight apparently.
I'm very pleased you have a full Everton family but please don't get all righteous, as surely you can see the football we have viewed for the past 20 years is painful. Call it a lazy soundbite if you will, but there is some sense in what I say. Wasn't it 1999 last time we won at Anfield and 1991 the last time we won at Old Trafford? Knife to a gunfight apparently.
'It appeared to me you were leaning strongly to one side of what I initially suggested and not offering a balanced argument'
Exactly what a devils advocate does.
Incidentally, it didn't work as well as it might as you have a) accepted the saliency of my points and then b) just reiterated the previous stance with no additional strength to the argument.
Exactly what a devils advocate does.
Incidentally, it didn't work as well as it might as you have a) accepted the saliency of my points and then b) just reiterated the previous stance with no additional strength to the argument.
Question ;
If Moyes wins the FA cup, would he have gone into a gunfight armed only with a knife. . .and won ?
If Moyes wins the FA cup, would he have gone into a gunfight armed only with a knife. . .and won ?
It's a big question, Dave... let's wait and see him win it first shall we?
Moyes is the the one that uses the phrase, who knows maybe Drenthe could be a knife thrower, but Neville in midfield and Cahill since Dec 2010 certainly ain't.
Moyes is the the one that uses the phrase, who knows maybe Drenthe could be a knife thrower, but Neville in midfield and Cahill since Dec 2010 certainly ain't.
By his own hand or that of the yanks the RS grinch will be out the door first. That lot are playing for much higher stakes than Moyes. Anything less than qualifying for Euro Champions League is for them an abject failure.
If at seasons end there are three clubs with less points than us Davey's well paid job is secure. Some on this site would consider that to be a success or even a fantastic achievement.
If at seasons end there are three clubs with less points than us Davey's well paid job is secure. Some on this site would consider that to be a success or even a fantastic achievement.
No one person is greater than any club, clubs make players not the other way round. As for Moyes, hope he wins the cup this season and leaves on a high. His football is just dross, his attacking idea(s?) is dross. We had a fairly commanding display against Blackpool and yet again failed to turn that dominance into goals. Moyes by the way should also take Kenwright and the board with him...
So Joe on the basis of a lack of replica shirts on U10s in place outside of Liverpool I am supposed to accept a 'lost generation'. Still a lazy sounbite.
You quite rightly say attendances are down but I think you will find its a pretty common trend. To quote Bill Clinton 'it's the economy stupid'.
In fact, check out records and you will find even this season, attendances are higher than either of our 80s league winning seasons.
This is still a great club with a manager I trust and believe in, that needs a change in its financial model before it will ever get to where we both want it to be.... Just my self righteous opinion.
You quite rightly say attendances are down but I think you will find its a pretty common trend. To quote Bill Clinton 'it's the economy stupid'.
In fact, check out records and you will find even this season, attendances are higher than either of our 80s league winning seasons.
This is still a great club with a manager I trust and believe in, that needs a change in its financial model before it will ever get to where we both want it to be.... Just my self righteous opinion.
James Morgan #230
I live in Sydney NSW and I follow the local football very closely and unfortunately I have never heard of this young kid. There are some good talented kids coming through in football here in Oz but the beautiful game suffers from the poor relation syndrome here in Australia: rugby league, Aussie rules (AFL... which by the way should stand for A Fucking Laff) all have bigger support and are pushed harder by the media. If it wasn't for Fox Sport, I don't know who would show football here.
Just to add my point to the debate, I think Moyes is far from great... in fact, IMO, he is very mediocre.
I live in Sydney NSW and I follow the local football very closely and unfortunately I have never heard of this young kid. There are some good talented kids coming through in football here in Oz but the beautiful game suffers from the poor relation syndrome here in Australia: rugby league, Aussie rules (AFL... which by the way should stand for A Fucking Laff) all have bigger support and are pushed harder by the media. If it wasn't for Fox Sport, I don't know who would show football here.
Just to add my point to the debate, I think Moyes is far from great... in fact, IMO, he is very mediocre.
Dave Wilson
Not necessarily. It depends on the draw really, doesn't it? I don't think it was a massive achievement HR winning in 2008 because of who they played against. Favourites in the final and only one PL team throughout the whole competition! To the same token if we beat Sunderland and then draw Leicester in the semi and Stevenage in the final then I'd be made up - but not necessarily think it was a stroke of genius. If we get any combination of Spurs, Liverpool and Chelsea .. then yes, I'd say he has.
Not necessarily. It depends on the draw really, doesn't it? I don't think it was a massive achievement HR winning in 2008 because of who they played against. Favourites in the final and only one PL team throughout the whole competition! To the same token if we beat Sunderland and then draw Leicester in the semi and Stevenage in the final then I'd be made up - but not necessarily think it was a stroke of genius. If we get any combination of Spurs, Liverpool and Chelsea .. then yes, I'd say he has.
Incidentally if either of the above two scenarios pan out I'd be made up. I don't give a shit how we win the cup as long as we win it!
Regardless of whether we have the luck of the draw, sadly I have no expectation that we will win the Cup or any other silverware whilst Moyes is Everton manager.
Dennis
So which manager is going to bring us silverware? Name me just one who would reallistically come and has a proven record of winning trophies?
Or do you just fancy taking a punt?
So which manager is going to bring us silverware? Name me just one who would reallistically come and has a proven record of winning trophies?
Or do you just fancy taking a punt?
I don't think anybody does, Dennis. 'Expectation' to win major trophies is the privilege of the two Manchester clubs, Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea and they pay a handsome price for that privilege. Until you can buy players like Nasri, Modric, Rooney etc for a chunk of history and an embroidered letter from a motto, it would be ridiculous for any of us to 'expect' to win anything.
Unfortunately, Graham I cannot tell you my expectations of a manager we haven't got, only the one we have.
I can't speak for others, Mark - they may have very different views to mine. You make a good point re finances, however, if my expectations were solely related to our current financial predicament I wouldn't specifically say "whilst Moyes is Everton manager". Even if we see a somewhat improved financial situation, that would not alter my expectations of Moyes as regards bringing silverware to Goodison.
I can't speak for others, Mark - they may have very different views to mine. You make a good point re finances, however, if my expectations were solely related to our current financial predicament I wouldn't specifically say "whilst Moyes is Everton manager". Even if we see a somewhat improved financial situation, that would not alter my expectations of Moyes as regards bringing silverware to Goodison.
Colin 198, I thought yours was an interesting comment. No money = no cups. It wasn't always that way though. Back when we won the cup winners cup in 85 the team that started the game cost a grant total of £1.53 million. And when you consider that Man Utd paid £1.5 million for Bryan Robson 4 years earlier and Man City had paid £1.4 Million for Steve Daley in 1979 the Howard Kendal practically worked on a shoestring. Carter didnt throw money around like it was going out of fashion, he splashed out close to a million on Lineker but trebled that when he sold him a year later.
Shaun there is no denying HK1 did a remarkable job. I must confess I don't think finance was as big a factor 25 years ago. It's a different job.
Dennis, there isn't a manager in the world who could come in to Everton which would give me an 'expectation' of winning the cup. If Mourinho or Ferguson came in tomorrow and you said 'I EXPECT them to win a Cup'. I'd say you were mad. So would they. They might win one, and it would be amazing, but they wouldn't have the burden of expectation that the previously named six have. Comparing our squad with some other teams ... such an expectation would be absurd!
Dennis, there isn't a manager in the world who could come in to Everton which would give me an 'expectation' of winning the cup. If Mourinho or Ferguson came in tomorrow and you said 'I EXPECT them to win a Cup'. I'd say you were mad. So would they. They might win one, and it would be amazing, but they wouldn't have the burden of expectation that the previously named six have. Comparing our squad with some other teams ... such an expectation would be absurd!
Mark, I'm not trying to tell you what expectations you should or shouldn't have in a hypothetical scenario that won't happen in the real world. I merely expressed my expectations of the manager we actually have & then endeavoured to clarify any confusion regarding the issue of finances, as you brought it up.
Re "previously named six" ?? not with you on that one, Mark.
Re "previously named six" ?? not with you on that one, Mark.
Chill out Dennis, I was agreeing with you! I was saying, like you that I don't 'expect' Everton to win a cup. The previously mentioned six were the two Manchester clubs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs. So called because I mentioned them earlier.
I don't think any other club places a burden of expectation on their managers to win a cup. They can't really, as they don't arm their managers with the tools required to do the job. But obviously the cup is a lottery and as such there is always a glimmer of opportunity (unlike the league) and if you do win it's a huge achievement - and an example of exceeding expectations.
I know people have mentioned people like Lambert, Martinez and Rogers on here as potential successors to Moyes. I personally don't want to see him changed. But if he was I would fully support any one of those managers 100%. I wouldn't expect them to win a cup, I would expect the cups, as I do now, to go to one of the six clubs mentioned above.
I don't think any other club places a burden of expectation on their managers to win a cup. They can't really, as they don't arm their managers with the tools required to do the job. But obviously the cup is a lottery and as such there is always a glimmer of opportunity (unlike the league) and if you do win it's a huge achievement - and an example of exceeding expectations.
I know people have mentioned people like Lambert, Martinez and Rogers on here as potential successors to Moyes. I personally don't want to see him changed. But if he was I would fully support any one of those managers 100%. I wouldn't expect them to win a cup, I would expect the cups, as I do now, to go to one of the six clubs mentioned above.
Mark it isn't a competition to out smart each other , I clearly misunderstood what you were trying to say and already apologised if that was the case.
In terms of accepting the saliency of your points , I never disagreed fully in the first place . I gave two sides of opinion , one for , one against.
I don't think their is a common opinion that with a different moyes approach we would have made top 4 , I firmly believe though that on numerous ocassions we could have done better with what we have at our disposal . I was a massive moyes supporter during the o'neill villa and redknapp pompey eras , doesn't mean that questions can start being asked when I see things that worry me .
I agree with your comments regarding the clubs with more resources and for me that highlights the shit state of affairs in the premier league and that its all about money .
Of course a league is built on individual results , yes teams at the bottom have been getting better results against the bigger boys but I think that's because the quality of the league has reduced . Anti football now amounts to mid table for more clubs as its all about survival . I think we were subscribing to this in the first half of the season all too often .
So to summarise my opinion , over his tenure moyes has over achieved for us to the point my email address names him as my father , however in the past two years he has become predictable and has placed too much emphasis on lack of resources and negative tactics . It's no coincidence for me that we seem to turn the corner after Christmas once we get a big result and confidence starts to flow amongst the players . I have played at a high level and been in both these situations and I have also coached in these circumstances . I'm looking at the present and it was refreshing to see moyes question himself for his performance before Christmas.
In terms of accepting the saliency of your points , I never disagreed fully in the first place . I gave two sides of opinion , one for , one against.
I don't think their is a common opinion that with a different moyes approach we would have made top 4 , I firmly believe though that on numerous ocassions we could have done better with what we have at our disposal . I was a massive moyes supporter during the o'neill villa and redknapp pompey eras , doesn't mean that questions can start being asked when I see things that worry me .
I agree with your comments regarding the clubs with more resources and for me that highlights the shit state of affairs in the premier league and that its all about money .
Of course a league is built on individual results , yes teams at the bottom have been getting better results against the bigger boys but I think that's because the quality of the league has reduced . Anti football now amounts to mid table for more clubs as its all about survival . I think we were subscribing to this in the first half of the season all too often .
So to summarise my opinion , over his tenure moyes has over achieved for us to the point my email address names him as my father , however in the past two years he has become predictable and has placed too much emphasis on lack of resources and negative tactics . It's no coincidence for me that we seem to turn the corner after Christmas once we get a big result and confidence starts to flow amongst the players . I have played at a high level and been in both these situations and I have also coached in these circumstances . I'm looking at the present and it was refreshing to see moyes question himself for his performance before Christmas.
Given the amount of money we have had at our disposal over the last 10 years Moyes has worked a miracle - we simply shouldn't be where we are. We all love this great club of course we do but before we all tear each other apart the simple truth is that David Moyes is a great manager - better than most - but no-one and nothing is bigger/greater than this club. You give Moyes £50m you would see better players and different style of play - he HAS to be cautious in his approach because he has to make the best of what he has in front of him
What is all this 'big club' and 'better club' bollocks?
They all have different levels of success at different periods. There is no bigger or better club than the one you support because no other club really matters that much.
It is the same for supporters of Man U as it is of supporters of Macclesfield. Without supporters and other clubs you have not got an audience or a competition. Everton is without doubt the biggest, best and most important club unless you support somebody else.
They all have different levels of success at different periods. There is no bigger or better club than the one you support because no other club really matters that much.
It is the same for supporters of Man U as it is of supporters of Macclesfield. Without supporters and other clubs you have not got an audience or a competition. Everton is without doubt the biggest, best and most important club unless you support somebody else.
I,too,think Davey lost heart before Christmas.Poor performances,demos-and perhaps a realisation that nobody was going to relieve Kenwright of his burden all conspired towards his obvious despondency.
Getting in fresh faces helped lighten the gloom and inspired tired looking players to greater effort and a seven games unbeaten run.
Will the transformation be permanent?Will it culminate in a push for Europe and/or the FA Cup?Will it be enough for our man to say `no thanks`when others come calling? Your guess is as good as mine!
Getting in fresh faces helped lighten the gloom and inspired tired looking players to greater effort and a seven games unbeaten run.
Will the transformation be permanent?Will it culminate in a push for Europe and/or the FA Cup?Will it be enough for our man to say `no thanks`when others come calling? Your guess is as good as mine!
Mark,
If we're going off the principle of the league never lies etc. Then surely it's been downhill ever since we were the 4th best team in the country?
You can't have it both ways.
If we're going off the principle of the league never lies etc. Then surely it's been downhill ever since we were the 4th best team in the country?
You can't have it both ways.
Well I wouldn't disagree with that, Stephen. But I don't think we've gone backwards, I just don't think we've progressed as much as some other clubs. And I think we haven't progressed as quickly as them because we haven't been able to compete in the transfer market. Yes we were better than Spurs and Citteh a few seasons ago. No we're not anymore. Should we be?
Rob Hollis 434. Well put!
Sorry Mark
But which ever way you look at it, more teams are getting ahead of us, cant see that changing with the current board.
I could accept lower finishes until a new owner comes along - they`re inevitable - Just as long as we have a really good crack in the cups.
This little run has made the world of difference to our season.
Cant wait for the cup game against the Mackems, The Old lady will shake.
But which ever way you look at it, more teams are getting ahead of us, cant see that changing with the current board.
I could accept lower finishes until a new owner comes along - they`re inevitable - Just as long as we have a really good crack in the cups.
This little run has made the world of difference to our season.
Cant wait for the cup game against the Mackems, The Old lady will shake.
Shaun (365), good point and I only wish it was true, but that really is a different era when at least 10 teams all had a chance of winning the league and players were more loyal, with wages at a normal working man's level. Sometimes I read similar comments on here that if HK1 or Clough could win something with a squad of no stars for little money then Moyes should surely do the same. Nope; you can have the best manger in the world but in this league in this century and at this moment it is down to money. Look at the stats, they give the same story too.
The fact is teams in the Champs League pay Champs League money with players on £100k plus per week. Players follow the money just like you, me and everyone else would. Rooney, our best player since Bally, has done it, even Stevie Me was off to Chelski, but stayed after Liverpool gave him £130k a week ? nice!
Maybe us Evertonian?s need to change our expectations to our current situation ? I know we all did during dire dire Walter's reign. At this moment in time, I want to watch my team in the Premier League playing some of the best teams in the world. Moyes is doing the right job with the resources at his disposal; if making us hard to beat and turning over the top teams occasionally is all we are budgeted for then so be it. I will treat a good cup run or Euro-cup football is a bonus.
Fine ? accuse me of having low expectations... but I don't care anymore. I still go to the game now but because of the money situation, I've lost some of the passion for football which has firmly taken a back seat with me as I treat it more of a day out with the lads on the lash. I?d really love it if we were still competing on a level playing field but football to me seems to be just a money-making business now.
The fact is teams in the Champs League pay Champs League money with players on £100k plus per week. Players follow the money just like you, me and everyone else would. Rooney, our best player since Bally, has done it, even Stevie Me was off to Chelski, but stayed after Liverpool gave him £130k a week ? nice!
Maybe us Evertonian?s need to change our expectations to our current situation ? I know we all did during dire dire Walter's reign. At this moment in time, I want to watch my team in the Premier League playing some of the best teams in the world. Moyes is doing the right job with the resources at his disposal; if making us hard to beat and turning over the top teams occasionally is all we are budgeted for then so be it. I will treat a good cup run or Euro-cup football is a bonus.
Fine ? accuse me of having low expectations... but I don't care anymore. I still go to the game now but because of the money situation, I've lost some of the passion for football which has firmly taken a back seat with me as I treat it more of a day out with the lads on the lash. I?d really love it if we were still competing on a level playing field but football to me seems to be just a money-making business now.
Dave - no need to apologise - I don't really see how you are saying anything different than I am?
Mark,
No we shouldn't. More than just money spent those sides have developed every characteristic a winning side needs.
Some sides have gone backwards though, Arsenal for one. I know they spend more than us in wages but they are still in decline. I wouldn't swap their first team for ours if I'm honest. Van Persie aside they are a poor side.
Newcastle have massively reined in their spending and others have had to do the same. These have tradiotionally outspent us. There were always sides that did.
The money spent argument is a good and fair one. As I've admitted in the past you geneally get what you pay for in this league. The main reason I see from Moyes supporters for his continued presence is that he may get you more?
In the past he has.
The biggest compliment I can pay him is he's got a really good eye for a player. Second only to Wenger in this league. He can build a squad that is worth far more than what he paid for it.
But should expectations be levelled at what was paid or what they are realistically worth?
For example,
our defence. Howard - £4m, Hibbert??? Jag - £10-12m, Heitinga - same, Baines £15-20m. All IMO realistic valuations.
That's some £40-50m ish worth of players. That's more than twice what we paid.
Looking through the league I can't see many sides having a defence worth that amount. Perhaps Chelsea???, Man Utd, City and Spurs. Go through our side and I see a similar pattern.
This is what my expectations are built upon, how our players compare to other sides. I can't argue with you that we've punched above our financial weight, but I don't feel the levels we've reached have been the maximum of our potential.
The cups usually throw up a clear run for a side every so often. This has happened to us on more than one occasion. Like you, I don't consider getting beat by Chelsea choking. But defeats to Sporting Lisbon, Fiorentina, Liege and a load of other lower league sides in the cup definitely is as we were the better side.
IMO, Moyes only has himself to blame for not winning us a trophy this decade.
No we shouldn't. More than just money spent those sides have developed every characteristic a winning side needs.
Some sides have gone backwards though, Arsenal for one. I know they spend more than us in wages but they are still in decline. I wouldn't swap their first team for ours if I'm honest. Van Persie aside they are a poor side.
Newcastle have massively reined in their spending and others have had to do the same. These have tradiotionally outspent us. There were always sides that did.
The money spent argument is a good and fair one. As I've admitted in the past you geneally get what you pay for in this league. The main reason I see from Moyes supporters for his continued presence is that he may get you more?
In the past he has.
The biggest compliment I can pay him is he's got a really good eye for a player. Second only to Wenger in this league. He can build a squad that is worth far more than what he paid for it.
But should expectations be levelled at what was paid or what they are realistically worth?
For example,
our defence. Howard - £4m, Hibbert??? Jag - £10-12m, Heitinga - same, Baines £15-20m. All IMO realistic valuations.
That's some £40-50m ish worth of players. That's more than twice what we paid.
Looking through the league I can't see many sides having a defence worth that amount. Perhaps Chelsea???, Man Utd, City and Spurs. Go through our side and I see a similar pattern.
This is what my expectations are built upon, how our players compare to other sides. I can't argue with you that we've punched above our financial weight, but I don't feel the levels we've reached have been the maximum of our potential.
The cups usually throw up a clear run for a side every so often. This has happened to us on more than one occasion. Like you, I don't consider getting beat by Chelsea choking. But defeats to Sporting Lisbon, Fiorentina, Liege and a load of other lower league sides in the cup definitely is as we were the better side.
IMO, Moyes only has himself to blame for not winning us a trophy this decade.
I`ve come to accept that we are what we are.I agree now that Kenwright cannot `take us on`but don`t think he has a hope in hell `of getting rid`and even if the price was a quid,it would only attract the sort of charleton who took on Rangers.
My hope is that Davey can continue to weave his magic and keep us in` the zone of respectability`!
My hope is that Davey can continue to weave his magic and keep us in` the zone of respectability`!
Sounds like the sort inner dialogue I was having after one space cake too many in Amsterdam before Christmas.
So in order to win a trophy we have to pay millions to buy players? Does that mean £50m Torres, or £35m Carrol, or all the other over-rated 'super stars' of SkyTV? Or can a highly motivated, well coached side go out and win without these players? Such as Portsmouth, Birmingham, Greece even.
When Blackburn can go to Old Trafford and win, then why can't Everton win there too? Well letting top quality strikers leave the club for buttons doesn't help and not having a winning mentality either. No one associated with EFC should ever accept second best, we have been at the forefront of English football for 130-plus years and, unless the staff understand that we HAVE to win trophies, then they shouldn't be here.
The best form of defence is attack, and nothing but the best should be allowed
When Blackburn can go to Old Trafford and win, then why can't Everton win there too? Well letting top quality strikers leave the club for buttons doesn't help and not having a winning mentality either. No one associated with EFC should ever accept second best, we have been at the forefront of English football for 130-plus years and, unless the staff understand that we HAVE to win trophies, then they shouldn't be here.
The best form of defence is attack, and nothing but the best should be allowed
Dixie Dean was great... Alan Ball was great... you can reel off the great players and great managers from our history. Harry Catterick and Howard Kendall are great.
These individuals do not however make up the whole that is Everton. Everton is great, has a great history, and no-one is greater or bigger than Everton Football Club. Without EFC, there is nothing; there is no-one.
Moyes will eventually go and someone will replace him. Everton will still be here in a 100 years time... and who (they will ask) is David Moyes? What did he achieve in his 10 years in charge?
Oh look: Howard Kendall won the league and the cup and Everton were Kings of Europe (well, before the kopites rioted and we know too well the story of those poor losers).
Hey, big Joe Royle gets a mention. David Moyes saved us from relegation and adopted an anti-football game, bringing on defenders for forwards. This is the history being written today and the legacy that will be David Moyes's for future generations of Evertonians.
These individuals do not however make up the whole that is Everton. Everton is great, has a great history, and no-one is greater or bigger than Everton Football Club. Without EFC, there is nothing; there is no-one.
Moyes will eventually go and someone will replace him. Everton will still be here in a 100 years time... and who (they will ask) is David Moyes? What did he achieve in his 10 years in charge?
Oh look: Howard Kendall won the league and the cup and Everton were Kings of Europe (well, before the kopites rioted and we know too well the story of those poor losers).
Hey, big Joe Royle gets a mention. David Moyes saved us from relegation and adopted an anti-football game, bringing on defenders for forwards. This is the history being written today and the legacy that will be David Moyes's for future generations of Evertonians.
Richard Dodd 438 'Davy lost heart before Christmas' by before Christmas you mean from the first game of the season, coz that's when it started, or and Moyeses cases, didn't start.
Our season starts later and later as the years go on. One day it will be too late.
Our season starts later and later as the years go on. One day it will be too late.
Blackpool 1 West Ham 4
"10 man West Ham hammered Blackpool to return to the top of the Championship despite having to play for 35 minutes with midfielder Henri Lansbury in goal."
Sort of puts Davey's 2 - 0 home Cup TRIUMPH into perspective doesn't it.
"10 man West Ham hammered Blackpool to return to the top of the Championship despite having to play for 35 minutes with midfielder Henri Lansbury in goal."
Sort of puts Davey's 2 - 0 home Cup TRIUMPH into perspective doesn't it.
Future Evertonians will look back on Dour Davey's reign as a period when Everton played consistent defensive-minded play-safe mediocrity.
"The best form of defence is attack, and nothing but the best should be allowed"
All well and good Mick, but using those well known exponents of total football Greece 2004 and Birmingham 2011 to support the argument seems a little bizarre.
All well and good Mick, but using those well known exponents of total football Greece 2004 and Birmingham 2011 to support the argument seems a little bizarre.
How does it put it into perspective Peter and what's with the 'TRIUMPH' in capitals.
You'll use anything you can to beat Moyes with won't you. Even a game that has fuck all to do with us.
How very predictable of you Peter.
You'll use anything you can to beat Moyes with won't you. Even a game that has fuck all to do with us.
How very predictable of you Peter.
But Doddy, the charlatan you've been backing for the last 10 years has got us in this predicament! I will never forgive people like you, who ? despite all the overwhelming facts ? for some strange reason have backed him... shame on you and your ilk. You've been the real problem! Nice to see you've finally woken up even ifs to late!!!
Richard J, on the contrary, many would say it is people like you who should be ashamed. Also, there is no such thing as facts in these situations; you mean your opinion which isn't necessarily the same thing.
We are doing very well at the moment, why don't you be positive and give credit for this because this is our only route to success. The club is not going to be sold so BK is what you get until HE decides to leave. That is not necessarily when a minority of Evertonians decide.
Richard takes the piss out of you guys and some like you bite like stupid fish (do you not realise when your plonker is being pulled?). He is right though about many things in my humble opinion.
We are doing very well at the moment, why don't you be positive and give credit for this because this is our only route to success. The club is not going to be sold so BK is what you get until HE decides to leave. That is not necessarily when a minority of Evertonians decide.
Richard takes the piss out of you guys and some like you bite like stupid fish (do you not realise when your plonker is being pulled?). He is right though about many things in my humble opinion.
@Peter Barry 553.
No it doesn't put it into perspective and your attempt to down play our win the other night is pathetic.
Anyone who knows the slightest thing about football knows every game is different. This is not football manager and the players are not robot's. What a miserable outlook on Everton you have.
No it doesn't put it into perspective and your attempt to down play our win the other night is pathetic.
Anyone who knows the slightest thing about football knows every game is different. This is not football manager and the players are not robot's. What a miserable outlook on Everton you have.
Kings Dock Failure, NTL Failure, SFX failure, Kirby con trick failure, keeping our best players failure, just a few facts for you to be going on with Martin digest in your own time pal. If Richard wants to take the piss while our club is in financial meltdown Ross's word bye the way and you want join in feel free.
Martin,
It's a very peculiar type of Evertonian that want's to take the mick out of other blues who are genuinely worried about the state of our??? club.
Especially when this worry is based on plenty of facts, including E-mails pertaining to financial meltdown.
That said everyone's just moaning for the sake of it anyway, aren't they?
It's a very peculiar type of Evertonian that want's to take the mick out of other blues who are genuinely worried about the state of our??? club.
Especially when this worry is based on plenty of facts, including E-mails pertaining to financial meltdown.
That said everyone's just moaning for the sake of it anyway, aren't they?
Haha, Stephen I'm not biting this time. We'd be here all day - took me about a week to catch up at work last time! Gonna just agree to disagree mate :-0
By the way Stephen you are right about NUFC. They have reduced the wage bill (it's still bigger than ours though) and not gone mad in the transfer market. But the real reason they are where they are is the best behind the scenes scientific and medical support team in the country outside British Cycling. Are you watching Moyesy?
Stephen
It's really tempting to take the mick on here because of the Victor Meldrew type gloom and doom :-)
We're a football club ? that's all; most like us have been run very badly and all now are starting to be run well as they must do. We are doing brilliantly at the moment on limited resources and we've just beaten City and Chelsea in a good unbeaten run. I've looked at all of the "facts" and most of it is inuendo, conspiracy theory and often fantasy. BK is a bullshitter but the world is full of bullshitters so he's not unusual.
We are a small club financially who are doing brilliantly to compete at the top level in the best league in the world. We have no right to be successful nor have we a right as customers to shrilly demand success. Can we do better? ? of course... but the potential on the downside is far higher. Can we get investment? ? not a chance because there isn't a big enough idiot in the world to invest in a club like Everton.
My hope is that Trust Everton gets going and that we the fans, instead of bed wetting about the chairman and manager, start putting our money where our mouths are and start doing what we want everybody else to do and start investing in the club.
It's really tempting to take the mick on here because of the Victor Meldrew type gloom and doom :-)
We're a football club ? that's all; most like us have been run very badly and all now are starting to be run well as they must do. We are doing brilliantly at the moment on limited resources and we've just beaten City and Chelsea in a good unbeaten run. I've looked at all of the "facts" and most of it is inuendo, conspiracy theory and often fantasy. BK is a bullshitter but the world is full of bullshitters so he's not unusual.
We are a small club financially who are doing brilliantly to compete at the top level in the best league in the world. We have no right to be successful nor have we a right as customers to shrilly demand success. Can we do better? ? of course... but the potential on the downside is far higher. Can we get investment? ? not a chance because there isn't a big enough idiot in the world to invest in a club like Everton.
My hope is that Trust Everton gets going and that we the fans, instead of bed wetting about the chairman and manager, start putting our money where our mouths are and start doing what we want everybody else to do and start investing in the club.
We could use some decent medical support for once at Everton, Mark. It's to the point when it feels odd (if I can actually remember a time) when we have a fully fit squad. I know every team has injuries, but we seem to have more long term injuries than most clubs.
Martin Mason
I agree supporting any one outside the monied clubs is pointless ..... isn't it?
I agree supporting any one outside the monied clubs is pointless ..... isn't it?
"We are a small club financially.."
That's better Martin
We are all in the gutter...
That's better Martin
We are all in the gutter...
I really think we need to take a step back and remember that 4 (FOUR!) of our best attacking options in recent weeks (Donovan, Pienaar, Le Stracq and Drenthe) are loanees.
I would be laughing if this were any other club ? pointing out that their recent 'success' is entirely artificial and has no longer term basis.
I could probably afford to rent a mansion for a few weeks, but the bank manager wouldn't confuse that for me owning a mansion. At best, loans paper over the cracks for a few months and give us a bit of a boost. But, at worst, they are a financial drain on the club, and just like renting a car/house, we get no long term rewards.
Even more annoying is that we are effectively "doing up" the houses we loan by making them better players, only for that to bite us in the arse when the asking price goes through the roof when it comes to trying to buy these lads!
I would be laughing if this were any other club ? pointing out that their recent 'success' is entirely artificial and has no longer term basis.
I could probably afford to rent a mansion for a few weeks, but the bank manager wouldn't confuse that for me owning a mansion. At best, loans paper over the cracks for a few months and give us a bit of a boost. But, at worst, they are a financial drain on the club, and just like renting a car/house, we get no long term rewards.
Even more annoying is that we are effectively "doing up" the houses we loan by making them better players, only for that to bite us in the arse when the asking price goes through the roof when it comes to trying to buy these lads!
No not inuendo they were facts Martin, ignor them if you want if it suits your weired agenda like I say Kenwright is killing our club and people like you are helping.
Barry, pointless if you demand success. Otherwise definitely not pointless, far better to support a club like Everton that is doing well despite money problems and regularly bloodies the noses of the Sky few.
Richard J, that my agenda isn't the same as yours doesn't make it "weird" in any way in fact it is you who are in the minority and hence potentially weird. Like all Evertonians, I would do anything to see them doing better but I see myself as rational and a realist. I'll also put my record of supporting Everton against anybody's and if Trust Everton gets going I will invest a significant amount of money to help the club. What do you actually do in this direction apart from talk a lot of negative sentiment and expect that which should not necessarily be expected? Can you understand the concept of others having different views to you?
Everton are a great club full stop. No one is bigger than Everton. We just haven't got a very good team at the moment. 20 or more years ago, we did have a great team. Throughout our history we have had great teams. We are the fourth most successful team in England. After the great team of 20 or more years ago, we were terrible; now under this manager (and I hate saying this) we are a mediocre defensive-minded team. Everton fans who say that former players or other clubs are bigger than Everton are not Everton fans in my opinion.
I'll add to that, Andrew... supporting Everton has never been rational; you either get it or you don't.
Martin care to comment on the facts I gave you? are they facts or not?
Martin 559.
We are doing very well at the moment.
What happened before "the moment" and what will happen after?
We are doing very well at the moment.
What happened before "the moment" and what will happen after?
Martin Mason
"pointless if you demand success."
Phrases appear on forums that I never thought I'd hear about Everton in my lifetime.
If I compile an index this is a deffo.
"pointless if you demand success."
Phrases appear on forums that I never thought I'd hear about Everton in my lifetime.
If I compile an index this is a deffo.
Man City 4 - Porto 0
Man City have have just battered Europa League champions 4-0, puts Davey's TRIUMPH over City into perspective.
Eh! Peter Barry.
Man City have have just battered Europa League champions 4-0, puts Davey's TRIUMPH over City into perspective.
Eh! Peter Barry.
Steve
Pointing out the ludicrous nature of his posts has never worked in the past, he is not for changing his irrational dislike of DM. Good luck
Pointing out the ludicrous nature of his posts has never worked in the past, he is not for changing his irrational dislike of DM. Good luck
Richard, you haven't given me any facts. Regardless, you're missing my point a bit. Whatever sins the board is guilty of, they are all EFC has and are going to get... and they decide to whom and at what price they sell the club. They are not going to "let go" of their property because a group of fans demand that they do.
Barry, what I said is logical. If you support a club for success only (as many fans do) then it is pointless supporting anybody except the big clubs because they are the only clubs with the resources to win trophies. I support Everton as I always have in the full knowledge that they are extremely unlikely to win anything. I want them to do as well as they can be expected to within the constraints of their limited resources. That is all any club can do and fans are irrational if they expect any better.
Kevin, only time will tell but we should give credit where it is due and go forward with hope that we will continue to play to our potential. Being constantly negative and in many cases hoping that we do badly to further the agenda is not, for me, what supporters of a club do. We support the team as the vast majority of Evertonians down the years have done through good and bad times. In the old days, EFC would have expected to win a championship trophy every 15-20 years and success would be cyclical and never guaranteed. The EPL changed all of that and I'd class it as extremely unlikely that EFC will ever win anything other than perhaps a flukey League Cup or FA Cup again. We are a club with a great history and a posh motto ? both of which are irrelevant. The reality is that we have piggy-bank finances and that is all that matters. We have played very well recently and that shows that we have the potential to be better and I sincerely hope that we can keep this up and especially give good showings at Anfield and Old Trafford rather than the spineless capitulations we've seen in recent years.
Chelsea fans are up in arms now and they have a right to be as they have been grossly mismanaged.
Barry, what I said is logical. If you support a club for success only (as many fans do) then it is pointless supporting anybody except the big clubs because they are the only clubs with the resources to win trophies. I support Everton as I always have in the full knowledge that they are extremely unlikely to win anything. I want them to do as well as they can be expected to within the constraints of their limited resources. That is all any club can do and fans are irrational if they expect any better.
Kevin, only time will tell but we should give credit where it is due and go forward with hope that we will continue to play to our potential. Being constantly negative and in many cases hoping that we do badly to further the agenda is not, for me, what supporters of a club do. We support the team as the vast majority of Evertonians down the years have done through good and bad times. In the old days, EFC would have expected to win a championship trophy every 15-20 years and success would be cyclical and never guaranteed. The EPL changed all of that and I'd class it as extremely unlikely that EFC will ever win anything other than perhaps a flukey League Cup or FA Cup again. We are a club with a great history and a posh motto ? both of which are irrelevant. The reality is that we have piggy-bank finances and that is all that matters. We have played very well recently and that shows that we have the potential to be better and I sincerely hope that we can keep this up and especially give good showings at Anfield and Old Trafford rather than the spineless capitulations we've seen in recent years.
Chelsea fans are up in arms now and they have a right to be as they have been grossly mismanaged.
Sorry, just to add that I've seen 2 comments from EPL managers about EFC in recent days. Ian Holloway said that we were fantastic, doing all of the right things and strong in every department. Ferguson said that what DM does at Everton is miraculous. Make of that what you will but to me it is a fairly ringing endorsement of club, man and team
No, Martin, you've changed your point. You were saying that people like me were upset based on conjecture and that we don't really know, I was saying it was based on facts, I've given you a few, now would you like to say they are not facts? Let's go through them...
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