Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Quinn Investments
309 Comments: I'd give it to the summer and Niall Quinn will be chomping at the bit to get back into the game, as almost inevitably these guys find it difficult to replace the game once they leave.
Quinn was an average striker who made the best of his talents in cultivating certainly a wealthy if not too successful footballing career. Few would have thought therefore, that he would have had the business acumen to take a club like Sunderland and lead it through two successful takeovers.
Sunderland are arguably the second team in North East, don't have a Global Brand and in Premier League terms wouldn't cost a huge sum of money (sound familiar?), yet Quinn has proved that the right individuals can be sourced if the terms of sale are reasonable.
OK, because of our inept board we don't have a New Stadium to bargain with, but surely he's worth a punt... can't be any worse than paying Keith Harris and his dead duck.
Liam Reilly, Posted 21/02/2012 at 10:10:51
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I agree it's worth a punt but I do believe the stadium is a major drawback. Mind you, after watching the highlights of the Sunderland /Arsenal game at the weekend, the stadium may be decent but there was hardly a bugger in it....vast swathes of empty seats all over the ground.
Maybe buyers of football clubs should look a little beyond the material state of the stadium and consider a bit more the people who are in it. The Old Lady was rocking on Saturday like nowhere else I know on a full-house day like that!
I know what Holloway meant when he called Everton 'a proper football club'. At least I think I do!!
Maybe buyers of football clubs should look a little beyond the material state of the stadium and consider a bit more the people who are in it. The Old Lady was rocking on Saturday like nowhere else I know on a full-house day like that!
I know what Holloway meant when he called Everton 'a proper football club'. At least I think I do!!
I hear that just like Davey, Blue Bill has re-charged his batteries as is coming to terms with the fact that nobody wants us. Let`s just hope, therefore, that he quickly takes on board (literally) some inspiring ideas to see us through the soccer recession.
An invite for Quinn to join us would be a start!
An invite for Quinn to join us would be a start!
Interesting idea although not going to happen. Kenwright simply won't let go of the trainset unless some mug is willing to offer around £100-150M. (Current price of one share puts the clubs value at around £42M!)
Bit harsh on Quinn, thought he was better than average myself. He averaged about 1 in 3 over a 20-year career, most of which was in the top flight. A a decent pro in my book.
Still, we'll wait till the cows come home before Blue Bill finds his elusive 'investment'.
Bit harsh on Quinn, thought he was better than average myself. He averaged about 1 in 3 over a 20-year career, most of which was in the top flight. A a decent pro in my book.
Still, we'll wait till the cows come home before Blue Bill finds his elusive 'investment'.
The most baffling thing is where did Quinn get his fortune from, as you mention he was a half decent striker who played in an era just before the big money came in yet he had a fortune.
I could never figure that one out ditto Chris Evans.
I could never figure that one out ditto Chris Evans.
But Quinn was only a figure heading a consortium. I don't think he invested his own money into Sunderland. I could be wrong though. Decent guy and decent player in my opinion.
A word of caution. Rangers!
Sean.. Niall Quinn is a bit shrewder than the average footballer of the era you mention..
He made good money from racing and bloodstock and furthermore.. made good contacts, who themselves had good money. [Cheap shots at Kenwright avoided here...]
As for Chris Evans? I can only assume you mean the DJ? He bought Virgin Radio for £83M and sold it a few months later for £225M and gave himself a £1.5M salary...
Christ... does he want to buy a football club?
He made good money from racing and bloodstock and furthermore.. made good contacts, who themselves had good money. [Cheap shots at Kenwright avoided here...]
As for Chris Evans? I can only assume you mean the DJ? He bought Virgin Radio for £83M and sold it a few months later for £225M and gave himself a £1.5M salary...
Christ... does he want to buy a football club?
Quinn was better than an average player. He won the league with Arsenal and the league cup too and scored goals where ever he went.
I recall HK Mk 2 trying to bring him to Goodison to be the targetman we required when we had that early-90s team of so-called 'mini marvels' (soon to be 'shot-shy short arses') and was hoping he'd pull the deal off.
One of football's good guys, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing him in some capacity at our club. Even more so if it finally seen the long overdue departure of Bungling Bill 'the ego' Kenwright.
I recall HK Mk 2 trying to bring him to Goodison to be the targetman we required when we had that early-90s team of so-called 'mini marvels' (soon to be 'shot-shy short arses') and was hoping he'd pull the deal off.
One of football's good guys, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing him in some capacity at our club. Even more so if it finally seen the long overdue departure of Bungling Bill 'the ego' Kenwright.
Ste... this is all fantasy / what could be ? I grant you... but throw Peter Reid into the mix in some capacity and it wouldn't seem so crazy?
Richard, you reckon "Blue Bill has re-charged his batteries as is coming to terms with the fact that nobody wants us".
What about the dozen or so interested parties Bill talks to every year? Are you saying they don't exist? That Bill is telling us porkies?
Expect to hear of a few more before the next BU protest.
What about the dozen or so interested parties Bill talks to every year? Are you saying they don't exist? That Bill is telling us porkies?
Expect to hear of a few more before the next BU protest.
I don't get it! Bring him in, in what capacity? If the problem is the price (I have no idea whether it is or not) then what difference is he going to make? Tell Bill to drop the the price? Why can't the current board do that without Quinn? If they don't want to, why would they bring someone in who is going to tell them that is what they need to do?
Re Chris Evans ? apparently he was interested in Everton but with the hand of Venables at the helm ? we'd have been asset-stripped and down among the League 1 dead men by now.
Guy 570; was this before during or after our present bout of asset stripping.
Guy #570.
"Chris Evans was interested in Everton".
In what way do you mean? Chris Evans is as red as a RS fan can get, so we can take it for granted that he would love nothing better than to see us play shite football, win fuck all, and have very little cash when the transfer window opens.
All the people who keep harping on about 'the stadium being a barrier to sale'. It's only a barrier in the sense that it should be reflected in the price.
If you're buying an asset that needs some post-acquisition investment, then you'll just reflect this in the price you're willing to pay for it.
Unfortunately, market evidence would indicate, that this is not being reflected in the sale price.
Nor is the debt but this is a story for another day........................
If you're buying an asset that needs some post-acquisition investment, then you'll just reflect this in the price you're willing to pay for it.
Unfortunately, market evidence would indicate, that this is not being reflected in the sale price.
Nor is the debt but this is a story for another day........................
Mike #575,
Chris Evans has been quoted many times as saying that he nearly bought Everton.
Plus, not sure he's as as Red as they come. Nobody really knows who he supports as he's been linked with Spurs in the past too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1184183/I-nearly-bought-Everton-13-5m-Nineties-reveals-radio-host-Chris-Evans.html
Chris Evans has been quoted many times as saying that he nearly bought Everton.
Plus, not sure he's as as Red as they come. Nobody really knows who he supports as he's been linked with Spurs in the past too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1184183/I-nearly-bought-Everton-13-5m-Nineties-reveals-radio-host-Chris-Evans.html
Richard Larnder
While I take your point (ie. if you're buying a second hand car the price will largely depend on its condition) it's not quite so simple with football clubs. The vast majority of people who buy football clubs seem to want a stadium that can bring in significant revenue 7 days a week and not just on match days and, additionally, a lot more revenue on match days due to a large number of corporate facilities etc, with the additional advantage of not requiring any significant investment in said stadium which is also an excellent selling point.
There are exceptions like West Ham and QPR but in the Hammer's case, Gold was expecting a 'free' stadium and the fella that bought QPR openly said his priority (and the attraction of QPR) was owning a club in London (that seems to have its own kudos for reasons I don't entirely appreciate)
This is the only reason I can see that anybody would overlook a club like Everton and buy the likes of Blackburn or, indeed, Sunderland. Now I know it is argued by some that Everton has not been sold because Kenwright wouldn't sell which, if that were true, would explain it. However, nobody really knows if that is true so for the sake of argument let's assume it isn't, that Everton is for sale as Kenwright says and using round figures for clarity the asking price (by him and the other major shareholders) is £100m.
If a potential buyer was like most of them and didn't want a need for major investment in the stadium yet wanted a stadium that earned significant revenue, the equation for him (or her!) would include let's say a £100m for upgrading Goodison to something like the Etihad standard or £250m (or more) for a new stadium. How could such vast sums be reflected in the asking price? The asking price is either equal to or swallowed whole by the need for stadium investment and its cost.
This is why clubs that in every other 'football' sense are inferior to Everton, like Blackburn, Sunderland, West Ham and perhaps even Newcastle have atrracted serious buyers while we haven't. Now, I'm not suggesting that it would have been a good thing to have been bought by the owners of Blackburn, West Ham or Newcastle but the fact remains that as far as I know, neither considered Everton, at least not beyond the stage of informally examining the assets. The question is why and while I am happy to concede that Kenwright may be too choosey in whom he would consider as a buyer and may want a place in the future setup himself to oil the wheels, I do firmly believe that the main obstacle is the stadium.
It's not that it's not a wonderful place because we all know that in its own way it is and if most of us had our way we wouldn't like to see it change too much. But that is not how modern football club owners/buyers see it unfortunately.
While I take your point (ie. if you're buying a second hand car the price will largely depend on its condition) it's not quite so simple with football clubs. The vast majority of people who buy football clubs seem to want a stadium that can bring in significant revenue 7 days a week and not just on match days and, additionally, a lot more revenue on match days due to a large number of corporate facilities etc, with the additional advantage of not requiring any significant investment in said stadium which is also an excellent selling point.
There are exceptions like West Ham and QPR but in the Hammer's case, Gold was expecting a 'free' stadium and the fella that bought QPR openly said his priority (and the attraction of QPR) was owning a club in London (that seems to have its own kudos for reasons I don't entirely appreciate)
This is the only reason I can see that anybody would overlook a club like Everton and buy the likes of Blackburn or, indeed, Sunderland. Now I know it is argued by some that Everton has not been sold because Kenwright wouldn't sell which, if that were true, would explain it. However, nobody really knows if that is true so for the sake of argument let's assume it isn't, that Everton is for sale as Kenwright says and using round figures for clarity the asking price (by him and the other major shareholders) is £100m.
If a potential buyer was like most of them and didn't want a need for major investment in the stadium yet wanted a stadium that earned significant revenue, the equation for him (or her!) would include let's say a £100m for upgrading Goodison to something like the Etihad standard or £250m (or more) for a new stadium. How could such vast sums be reflected in the asking price? The asking price is either equal to or swallowed whole by the need for stadium investment and its cost.
This is why clubs that in every other 'football' sense are inferior to Everton, like Blackburn, Sunderland, West Ham and perhaps even Newcastle have atrracted serious buyers while we haven't. Now, I'm not suggesting that it would have been a good thing to have been bought by the owners of Blackburn, West Ham or Newcastle but the fact remains that as far as I know, neither considered Everton, at least not beyond the stage of informally examining the assets. The question is why and while I am happy to concede that Kenwright may be too choosey in whom he would consider as a buyer and may want a place in the future setup himself to oil the wheels, I do firmly believe that the main obstacle is the stadium.
It's not that it's not a wonderful place because we all know that in its own way it is and if most of us had our way we wouldn't like to see it change too much. But that is not how modern football club owners/buyers see it unfortunately.
Something I forgot to mention in my previous post. I am not a businessman so I would welcome somebody putting me right if I am wrong here but if somebody really, really and irrefutably wanted to gain control of Everton then how could Kenwright, on his own, stop it happening?
Kenwright does not own a majority of shares. If it was me trying to get the club (I wish!) and I was met by obstinacy from him, I would approach the other major shareholders like Earl, offer them a 10% return on their investment, they would say they wanted more, presumably, and eventually an agreement would be reached at a price and I would get their shares and possibly those of smaller shareholders as well.
In theory, by buying up the shares not in the hands of Kenwright, I could eventually become the majority shareholder, wrest control of the club from him and make his life so unbearable he would eventually sell his shares to me as well. Hey presto, I've bought the club for the cost of the shares. Isn't this the sort of scenario which appears to be happening at Arsenal recently with whatsisname buying up loads of shares?
But the problem is, nobody seems to really, really and irrefutably want to buy Everton
So, unless I am fundamentally wrong in how these things work (which I may well be!), I don't think saying 'Kenwright won't sell', can be strictly true because the club is not his alone to refuse.
Kenwright does not own a majority of shares. If it was me trying to get the club (I wish!) and I was met by obstinacy from him, I would approach the other major shareholders like Earl, offer them a 10% return on their investment, they would say they wanted more, presumably, and eventually an agreement would be reached at a price and I would get their shares and possibly those of smaller shareholders as well.
In theory, by buying up the shares not in the hands of Kenwright, I could eventually become the majority shareholder, wrest control of the club from him and make his life so unbearable he would eventually sell his shares to me as well. Hey presto, I've bought the club for the cost of the shares. Isn't this the sort of scenario which appears to be happening at Arsenal recently with whatsisname buying up loads of shares?
But the problem is, nobody seems to really, really and irrefutably want to buy Everton
So, unless I am fundamentally wrong in how these things work (which I may well be!), I don't think saying 'Kenwright won't sell', can be strictly true because the club is not his alone to refuse.
Chris Evans confirmed he was a red on R2 this morning whilst chatting to the Bishop of Bradford (also a red).
Does anyone know what Ed 'Stew Pot' Stewart is doing with his spare millions?
Does anyone know what Ed 'Stew Pot' Stewart is doing with his spare millions?
Dave #588,
I can tell you with absolute certainty, from a corporate finance perspective, that the same can be said of valuing/acquiring a company as is the case with your second-hand car example.
The simple fact of the matter is that, using your numbers, if the business requires £250m of capital expenditure post-acquisition, is currently carrying £50m of debt, and is worth £100m, then I would expect roughly £1 to change hands between the buyer and the seller at completion.
I hold my hands up to the fact that football clubs don't always change hands for prices equivalent to what you'd pay for a 'normal business' but this is only indicative of the fact that you're trading on goodwill i.e., people will pay a premium to own a football club, regardless of what they are expecting to get as a return. However, what is the value of this goodwill in the case of Everton? It's not £150m surely? I'd be surprised if it was £30m.
Dave, I'm not suggesting you're guilty of this as your posts are well thought out and eloquently put. However, people harping on about XYZ reason for us not being sold are deluded in my opinion. If you've had an asset on the market for over a decade without it being sold, the asset is either completely worthless to everyone in the world or you are asking too much for it. It really is as simple as that.
Re your 'control' point in the next post, you're right, technically someone could gain control of Everton without buying BK's shares. However, BK has said on a number of occasions that he represents the other Board members with his wishes/wants i.e., they are all asking for too much for their shares.
I can tell you with absolute certainty, from a corporate finance perspective, that the same can be said of valuing/acquiring a company as is the case with your second-hand car example.
The simple fact of the matter is that, using your numbers, if the business requires £250m of capital expenditure post-acquisition, is currently carrying £50m of debt, and is worth £100m, then I would expect roughly £1 to change hands between the buyer and the seller at completion.
I hold my hands up to the fact that football clubs don't always change hands for prices equivalent to what you'd pay for a 'normal business' but this is only indicative of the fact that you're trading on goodwill i.e., people will pay a premium to own a football club, regardless of what they are expecting to get as a return. However, what is the value of this goodwill in the case of Everton? It's not £150m surely? I'd be surprised if it was £30m.
Dave, I'm not suggesting you're guilty of this as your posts are well thought out and eloquently put. However, people harping on about XYZ reason for us not being sold are deluded in my opinion. If you've had an asset on the market for over a decade without it being sold, the asset is either completely worthless to everyone in the world or you are asking too much for it. It really is as simple as that.
Re your 'control' point in the next post, you're right, technically someone could gain control of Everton without buying BK's shares. However, BK has said on a number of occasions that he represents the other Board members with his wishes/wants i.e., they are all asking for too much for their shares.
I agree with what you say Richard, however, your option of 'the asset being completely worthless' (or perhaps just not worth buying) could be met by the fact that the stadium does not meet potential buyer's requirements without vast investment that they may not wish to pay for.
My second post was theoretical. However, it does not change the fact that Kenwright is NOT the owner of the club and accordingly cannot himself prevent a sale. That was the point I was making.
It is interesting though that more than 31% of the shares are held by holders with less than 10% of the total. This is the largest 'group' of shares with 2% more than Kenwright's. Could this group not be identified and get together in some way as a shareholder 'institution' (in the same or a similar way as a pension fund etc) and become the largest shareholder with significant status rather than being effectively ignored as it seems to me?
My second post was theoretical. However, it does not change the fact that Kenwright is NOT the owner of the club and accordingly cannot himself prevent a sale. That was the point I was making.
It is interesting though that more than 31% of the shares are held by holders with less than 10% of the total. This is the largest 'group' of shares with 2% more than Kenwright's. Could this group not be identified and get together in some way as a shareholder 'institution' (in the same or a similar way as a pension fund etc) and become the largest shareholder with significant status rather than being effectively ignored as it seems to me?
Dave,
Not meaning to split hairs here but, 'stadium not meeting the buyer's requirements' can only mean it doesn't generate enough cash, which means you're not going to get a good enough return on your investment, unless you invest less, which means you reduce the price......................
Not meaning to split hairs here but, 'stadium not meeting the buyer's requirements' can only mean it doesn't generate enough cash, which means you're not going to get a good enough return on your investment, unless you invest less, which means you reduce the price......................
I'm sure if the board got wind of an attempt to buy up the 31% of the shares not in their control then Green would make sure that Kenwright / Earle / Woods would gain enough additional shares to prevent it.
Eric,
Maybe we couldn't get up to 31% but we could still get a sizeable quantity. Enough to cause some waves anyway. Especially given your average fan on the street is more likely to sell to a fan-lead initiative rather than the Board.
It wouldn't even need to cost anyone any money. Existing shareholders could buy units in a Trust which then funds the purchase of shares from the shareholders. i.e., you swap a share in Everton for a unit in a Trust which owns a 30%+ share of the club.
Maybe we couldn't get up to 31% but we could still get a sizeable quantity. Enough to cause some waves anyway. Especially given your average fan on the street is more likely to sell to a fan-lead initiative rather than the Board.
It wouldn't even need to cost anyone any money. Existing shareholders could buy units in a Trust which then funds the purchase of shares from the shareholders. i.e., you swap a share in Everton for a unit in a Trust which owns a 30%+ share of the club.
I'm fascinated by this new stadium question, has any club in the UK categorically charted an improvement based on a new ground?
On my travels I see Derby, Boro, Bolton, Southampton, Coventry, Sunderland all with spanking grounds but other than attracting a token England international game - what gives?
Even Arsenal with that beautiful stadium seem to be getting worse.
Why did LFC never move through their glory years when they certainly could have got 60k+ with the tourist trade, ditto MUFC.
Is it just a load of hairy old bollocks particularly when the goods on the pitch don't fill the places?
Are the extra corporates worth it?
Isn't the only option develop GP?
On my travels I see Derby, Boro, Bolton, Southampton, Coventry, Sunderland all with spanking grounds but other than attracting a token England international game - what gives?
Even Arsenal with that beautiful stadium seem to be getting worse.
Why did LFC never move through their glory years when they certainly could have got 60k+ with the tourist trade, ditto MUFC.
Is it just a load of hairy old bollocks particularly when the goods on the pitch don't fill the places?
Are the extra corporates worth it?
Isn't the only option develop GP?
Mark
Thanks for clearing that up about Niall Quinn.
I mentioned Chris Evans as one day he was a Radio1 DJ stepping out with Billie Piper and the next he somehow got 80 odd million to buy a radio station, it was news to me that he tried to buy Everton maybe Gazza had a word.
Thanks for clearing that up about Niall Quinn.
I mentioned Chris Evans as one day he was a Radio1 DJ stepping out with Billie Piper and the next he somehow got 80 odd million to buy a radio station, it was news to me that he tried to buy Everton maybe Gazza had a word.
What's all this Chris Evans was a red.... and? When do you have to support a club to buy it. I don't think Abromovich stood in the shed end, or Sheik Yer Akkers in the Kippax Lane, or John Henry stood on the Kop. In fact the yanks are usually shown up as people that know fuck all about the game. Give me a businessman (or women) than a well meaning Evertonian.
Richard, something came up in another thread about this where someone stated that if any shareholder purchases 30% of the shares then they are obliged to make a bid to purchase ALL remaining shares.
I don't think a fans trust would be in a position to do that (if correct? I'm sure you'd know?)
Bearing in mind that Kroenke owned 29.9% of Arsenal shares and didn't have a seat on their board I don't see that our current board would be too bothered, and as I said, Green wouldn't allow a single majority outside of the board.
I don't think a fans trust would be in a position to do that (if correct? I'm sure you'd know?)
Bearing in mind that Kroenke owned 29.9% of Arsenal shares and didn't have a seat on their board I don't see that our current board would be too bothered, and as I said, Green wouldn't allow a single majority outside of the board.
I think there's a compelling arguement for the owner of a club to NOT to be a long-standing supporter. I would imagine a non supporter would manage the club more realistically and as a business as opposed to heart ruling the head syndrome.
That's not to say over time they would have an affinity to the club, no doubt they would. I would sooner have a good businessman at the helm than someone who stood in his stocking in the pen.
That's not to say over time they would have an affinity to the club, no doubt they would. I would sooner have a good businessman at the helm than someone who stood in his stocking in the pen.
I`ve come to believe that speculation about a change of ownership is entirely academic.
With no prospect of increasing income without a new/greatly improved stadium and a debt level that can only increase if the team is to remain competitive, who could possibly be prepared to pay more than the legendary pound? And even then, who's to know they're not Craig Whyte in disguise?
All adds up with being stuck with Blue Bill!
With no prospect of increasing income without a new/greatly improved stadium and a debt level that can only increase if the team is to remain competitive, who could possibly be prepared to pay more than the legendary pound? And even then, who's to know they're not Craig Whyte in disguise?
All adds up with being stuck with Blue Bill!
Richard, a better business plan would go a long way to increasing income and perhaps provide the banks with some confidence in the management that they might be prepared to lend some money to redevelop a stand to further increase revenue. Possibly in conjunction with some naming rights (The Addidas Gwladys St. Stand?) or a hotel (The Marriot Park End?).
But first the board has to have a complete change of mindset and acknowledge the fact that they need help to get the Club back on track and stop looking for the big payday exit.
But first the board has to have a complete change of mindset and acknowledge the fact that they need help to get the Club back on track and stop looking for the big payday exit.
Richard
"With no prospect of increasing income without a new/greatly improved stadium..." ? What about doing something now to increase the match-going fanbase? 34,000 in a 60,000 stadium at current prices would do fuck-all; I presume you're still going on about the 100s of potential corporate boxes filled by suits who don't fancy being wined and dined while watching Utd or City?
"With no prospect of increasing income without a new/greatly improved stadium..." ? What about doing something now to increase the match-going fanbase? 34,000 in a 60,000 stadium at current prices would do fuck-all; I presume you're still going on about the 100s of potential corporate boxes filled by suits who don't fancy being wined and dined while watching Utd or City?
Richard,
I believe we could create divisions of Retail, Marketing & PR, Event management, Corporate Hospitality and Catering with an industry leading expert heading each with performance based clauses for around £1.5-£2.5M pa.
This would mean all our outsourced services could come back in house and you would quite possibly find new ones added. This would instantly translate increased revenues.
I also believe you could search through our fanbase for what I would call something like the Everton Advisory Panel ? people who are supporters of the club who are prominent figures in their industry who would make their time and advice available to the club for free or vastly reduced rates.
KEIOC alone have shown the depth of knowledge in our fanbase. Only pride or stupidity is stopping the club from tapping into this.
There is plenty the club can do to help itself. It has to start with a desire to do so. I can't see one and neither can you, that's clear from your latest postings.
I believe we could create divisions of Retail, Marketing & PR, Event management, Corporate Hospitality and Catering with an industry leading expert heading each with performance based clauses for around £1.5-£2.5M pa.
This would mean all our outsourced services could come back in house and you would quite possibly find new ones added. This would instantly translate increased revenues.
I also believe you could search through our fanbase for what I would call something like the Everton Advisory Panel ? people who are supporters of the club who are prominent figures in their industry who would make their time and advice available to the club for free or vastly reduced rates.
KEIOC alone have shown the depth of knowledge in our fanbase. Only pride or stupidity is stopping the club from tapping into this.
There is plenty the club can do to help itself. It has to start with a desire to do so. I can't see one and neither can you, that's clear from your latest postings.
Richard (681), your barely-disguised glee at the prospect of Kim Jong Bill being around for the long haul misses, as usual, the fundamental point.
By screwing up the KD, he missed the opportunity to make his (albeit diminished) shareholding infinitely more valuable, giving EFC new and increased revenue streams, and he could have either cashed in or stayed on to feed his insatiable ego.
Right now the only thing that EFC is doing right is staying in the Premier League. Therefore the fact that they are not tapping into new revenue streams, and not committed to a new stadium project, actually makes the business more appealing to the right buyers.
It's still worth nothing, and therefore the potential to create a business worth something substantial would therefore in theory provide the basis for a 5-10 year investment cost-benefit.
It's supposition, but actually DK, by failing to deliver the right increases in revenue streams, could've made the club unsaleable at any price. Your Dear Leader may have inadvertently dodged a bullet with that one.
By screwing up the KD, he missed the opportunity to make his (albeit diminished) shareholding infinitely more valuable, giving EFC new and increased revenue streams, and he could have either cashed in or stayed on to feed his insatiable ego.
Right now the only thing that EFC is doing right is staying in the Premier League. Therefore the fact that they are not tapping into new revenue streams, and not committed to a new stadium project, actually makes the business more appealing to the right buyers.
It's still worth nothing, and therefore the potential to create a business worth something substantial would therefore in theory provide the basis for a 5-10 year investment cost-benefit.
It's supposition, but actually DK, by failing to deliver the right increases in revenue streams, could've made the club unsaleable at any price. Your Dear Leader may have inadvertently dodged a bullet with that one.
Eric #663,
Rule 9.1 of the takeover code states that once you acquire 30% of the voting rights to an entity, you must make a mandatory offer for the remaining shares at the price at which the shares were last acquired. Of course, the remaining shareholders are not obliged to accept the offer.
All this means that such a Trust could acquire a 29.9% holding in shares, as you mention.
I agree that it wouldn't necessarily entitle the Trust to a seat on the Board but it would enable shareholders to get more information and demand an audience with the Board, which is more than we are getting at the moment.
Rule 9.1 of the takeover code states that once you acquire 30% of the voting rights to an entity, you must make a mandatory offer for the remaining shares at the price at which the shares were last acquired. Of course, the remaining shareholders are not obliged to accept the offer.
All this means that such a Trust could acquire a 29.9% holding in shares, as you mention.
I agree that it wouldn't necessarily entitle the Trust to a seat on the Board but it would enable shareholders to get more information and demand an audience with the Board, which is more than we are getting at the moment.
The last time shareholders demanded an audience with the board they (the board) invoked the fith amendment and scrapped AGMs and EGMs.
But I still go back to my point that if the board got wind of a proposed single major shareholding accumulation then action would be taken by their friend to prevent it and maintain the board's position.
But I still go back to my point that if the board got wind of a proposed single major shareholding accumulation then action would be taken by their friend to prevent it and maintain the board's position.
Richard, if you get the 30% shareholding and make the mandatory offer and it's declined, are you obliged to reduce your stake? or can you maintain it? or still acquire more?
Is there any way of identifying who these smaller shareholders are? Only the major shareholders are listed by name by Everton. If they could be identified then surely at least one of them must be a member of KEIOC or BU or somebody interested enough to be nominated in some way to contact them with a view to forming some kind of minor shareholding association of sorts.
I was interested in aquiring a share or two when I retired (out of my lump sum!) and I'd still be interested but nobody seems to know how to get them. They are described as being 'closely held'. I don't know if this is 'proper' business terminology or just a way of saying 'no chance, piss off pleb!'
Perhaps, alternatively, all minor shareholders could be invited to a meeting to discuss just that issue. It just seems to me that minor shareholders, probably holding one or two shares, hold them for the same reason I wanted, just as a little part of the club I support and have done all my life. More sentiment than sensible! But together, speaking with one voice, even without a seat on the board the club would surely have to listen and so would the media which is probably even more important.
If anybody knows how to buy shares in the club, I wouldn't baulk at being nominated.
I was interested in aquiring a share or two when I retired (out of my lump sum!) and I'd still be interested but nobody seems to know how to get them. They are described as being 'closely held'. I don't know if this is 'proper' business terminology or just a way of saying 'no chance, piss off pleb!'
Perhaps, alternatively, all minor shareholders could be invited to a meeting to discuss just that issue. It just seems to me that minor shareholders, probably holding one or two shares, hold them for the same reason I wanted, just as a little part of the club I support and have done all my life. More sentiment than sensible! But together, speaking with one voice, even without a seat on the board the club would surely have to listen and so would the media which is probably even more important.
If anybody knows how to buy shares in the club, I wouldn't baulk at being nominated.
Eric
How can minor shareholders forming an association be prevented? Surely it's up to individual shareholders. The major shareholders could even be invited to join just to prove to them and the media that the action is not necessarily aggressive in a 'business sense'.!
How can minor shareholders forming an association be prevented? Surely it's up to individual shareholders. The major shareholders could even be invited to join just to prove to them and the media that the action is not necessarily aggressive in a 'business sense'.!
As you say Dave, the majority of shareholders hold 1 or 2 shares who had no intention of buying them to make a profit but, as you suggest, having a wee bit of the club
There are shareholders who post here regularly who should be able to help. The "traditional" way of of acquring shares was a "wanted" advert in the Red Echo and Daily (now Weekly!) Post
There are shareholders who post here regularly who should be able to help. The "traditional" way of of acquring shares was a "wanted" advert in the Red Echo and Daily (now Weekly!) Post
Dave,
Blankstone Sington are the main broker contact in respect of Everton shares.
http://www.blankstonesington.co.uk/
Blankstone Sington are the main broker contact in respect of Everton shares.
http://www.blankstonesington.co.uk/
Thanks Richard. I have just had a look at their website. I will give them a ring tomorrow. It looks as if you have to have a seller before you can buy but maybe there are some waiting to sell.
They need to update their info though as they are still saying holding a share entitles an invite to the AGM and to a vote! And we know there are no AGMs anymore don't we.
Cheers
They need to update their info though as they are still saying holding a share entitles an invite to the AGM and to a vote! And we know there are no AGMs anymore don't we.
Cheers
Just thought on. Presumably Blankstone Sington would know who the minor shareholders were. I wonder if anybody is entitled to that information.
"Shares do not have an official price but are currently valued at between £? and £? each. They are not traded openly ? only by private sale between parties, who must agree on a mutual price that represents the value of the share to them"
Don`t disagree with much above but haven`t the retail and catering streams been sold off for years to come? And doesn`t that 30% rule apply only to PUBLIC companies not PRIVATE entities like Everton?
Dave, every EFC shareholder is listed at Compaines House. The list is available via the internet if you can master their website... or at least it was when I last looked. I think I had to pay £1.
And a Shareholders Association already exists... although not to do what you envisage.
Take a look at some of the links on there. Especially "Part 3" by Steve Allinson. It's a bit dated but tells you a lot about that side of the club.
Take a look at some of the links on there. Especially "Part 3" by Steve Allinson. It's a bit dated but tells you a lot about that side of the club.
Thanks Michael. I'll try that. Can you lend me a quid?
Dave, you can buy a share (s) in Everton by contacting their brokers Blankstone Sington - you set up an account with them, tell them how many shares you want and transfer the cash to them and they take care of the rest.
The shares have been trading at around £1,250 for the last 3-4 years now. (Always amazes me how the share price hardly changes regardless of how good or bad we do on the pitch -? I guess being in the Premier League is the be-all and end-all from a financial perspective.)
(I wouldn't be buying shares if you're doing so for purely investment reasons! At this rate, god only knows where we'll be in 2-3 years time when the likes of Neville, Distin, Cahill, Osman, Hibbert etc need to be replaced by selling a Rodwell, Baines or Barkely, whilst still loosing around £5m a year!)
Good luck though!
The shares have been trading at around £1,250 for the last 3-4 years now. (Always amazes me how the share price hardly changes regardless of how good or bad we do on the pitch -? I guess being in the Premier League is the be-all and end-all from a financial perspective.)
(I wouldn't be buying shares if you're doing so for purely investment reasons! At this rate, god only knows where we'll be in 2-3 years time when the likes of Neville, Distin, Cahill, Osman, Hibbert etc need to be replaced by selling a Rodwell, Baines or Barkely, whilst still loosing around £5m a year!)
Good luck though!
Although the Everton Shareholders Association website is under reconstruction, it's possible to view 'snapshots' of it from between 2004 and 2011 using the Wayback Machine at archive.org.
See: http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.efcsa.org/
See: http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.efcsa.org/
I think even our learned minority of in-the-know fans are now beginning to realise that nobody is going to buy EFC at the current asking price or anything remotely near it. Even safer to say there is nobody on the planet who would "invest" in Everton, they are quite simply a basket-case, investment-wise. So, what are the options now?
The only way forward that I can see is that there is only one and that we become a very tightly run club within our means and that some income has to be set aside for ground improvement at the expense of salaries and transfer fees. I believe that we can maintain our position in the EPL because there will always be some clubs with less resources than us but I believe our natural position could be close to the bottom, not the top.
I would say that currently as a club we genuinely do punch above our weight (and for me it is down to exceptional management) and those who advocate change of the board and manager for the sake of change should be careful of what they wish for. We have played brilliantly recently and if this continues and reflects in increased gates, it may well be that we will rise from the ashes organically without a mythical buyer/investor.
I'm really sorry to see Gibson injured because he seems in a very workmanlike way to have added steel to the midfield and allowed Fellaini to play much better. If Stracq can continue his improvement and Jelly fits in well, the future could be bright.
The only show in town is the BK/DM axis and for me there is no point in undermining them ? only supporting them constructively. Does that mean not criticising? Of course not, that is our right, but constructive criticism.
The only way forward that I can see is that there is only one and that we become a very tightly run club within our means and that some income has to be set aside for ground improvement at the expense of salaries and transfer fees. I believe that we can maintain our position in the EPL because there will always be some clubs with less resources than us but I believe our natural position could be close to the bottom, not the top.
I would say that currently as a club we genuinely do punch above our weight (and for me it is down to exceptional management) and those who advocate change of the board and manager for the sake of change should be careful of what they wish for. We have played brilliantly recently and if this continues and reflects in increased gates, it may well be that we will rise from the ashes organically without a mythical buyer/investor.
I'm really sorry to see Gibson injured because he seems in a very workmanlike way to have added steel to the midfield and allowed Fellaini to play much better. If Stracq can continue his improvement and Jelly fits in well, the future could be bright.
The only show in town is the BK/DM axis and for me there is no point in undermining them ? only supporting them constructively. Does that mean not criticising? Of course not, that is our right, but constructive criticism.
Dave #715, my point was not about preventing an association of shareholders being formed as I knew one already exists.
My point was that they would be prevented from being the largest single shareholding block.
My point was that they would be prevented from being the largest single shareholding block.
Ah there you are Martin, in another thread "Bigger than the club" thread, I gave you some facts that the "minority " were upset about.
You said we were upset based on conjecture; I gave you facts, I asked you to comment on them.
Feel free or ignore me if it's too painful.
You said we were upset based on conjecture; I gave you facts, I asked you to comment on them.
Feel free or ignore me if it's too painful.
I'll give you the post, Martin:
Kings Dock Failure
NTL Failure
SFX failure
Kirby con-trick failure
Keeping our best players failure...
Just a few facts for you to be going on with, Martin. Digest in your own time, pal.
If Richard wants to take the piss while our club is in financial meltdown (Ross's word, by the way) and you want join in, feel free.
Kings Dock Failure
NTL Failure
SFX failure
Kirby con-trick failure
Keeping our best players failure...
Just a few facts for you to be going on with, Martin. Digest in your own time, pal.
If Richard wants to take the piss while our club is in financial meltdown (Ross's word, by the way) and you want join in, feel free.
Martin
What the hell is "constructive criticism" and what is it going to achieve with this Three Monkeys board??? You may as well criticise the factory cat.
Your philoophy and your aspirations for Everton are hardly ambitious ?keep shtum and hope there are 3 worse teams in the Prem each season... bollocks to that!
What the hell is "constructive criticism" and what is it going to achieve with this Three Monkeys board??? You may as well criticise the factory cat.
Your philoophy and your aspirations for Everton are hardly ambitious ?keep shtum and hope there are 3 worse teams in the Prem each season... bollocks to that!
Martin Mason,
Can you suggest a medium whereby we can get our constructive criticism to Kenwright?
Open your fucking eyes. The ignorance of that post is shocking.
Can you suggest a medium whereby we can get our constructive criticism to Kenwright?
Open your fucking eyes. The ignorance of that post is shocking.
King?s Dock wasn?t a failure it was a fantasy that was never going to happen.
Kirkby was bad with the benefit of hindsight but, on the face of it, was an opportunity to get a ground for reduced cost. It was a genuine attempt to solve our problems. Don?t blame BK but his business advisors.
SFX I know nothing about as I was out of the country. As I didn?t hear anything via normal sources, it can?t have been that significant.
That the club is in financial meltdown is an opinion not a fact. Not keeping our best players is necessity ? not a failure.
So is that it? You want to change the board and manager because of that? We are where we are because we are a low-income club and the only mistake the board has made is to try to improve our status using money they didn?t have. Serious but surely it?s an honourable cause?
Kirkby was bad with the benefit of hindsight but, on the face of it, was an opportunity to get a ground for reduced cost. It was a genuine attempt to solve our problems. Don?t blame BK but his business advisors.
SFX I know nothing about as I was out of the country. As I didn?t hear anything via normal sources, it can?t have been that significant.
That the club is in financial meltdown is an opinion not a fact. Not keeping our best players is necessity ? not a failure.
So is that it? You want to change the board and manager because of that? We are where we are because we are a low-income club and the only mistake the board has made is to try to improve our status using money they didn?t have. Serious but surely it?s an honourable cause?
KD - Money was made available to the club who were the preferred bidders for the site. Hardly a fantasy.
DK - KEIOC never needed the benefit of hindsight. They predicted everything that happened and told the club from the off it wouldn't happen. It was a genuine attempt to solve somebody's problem, just not Everton's. I will blame BK because he's a grown man who does not have to accept anybody's advice.
You're obviously on a wind-up. I just can't fathom why? I'm gonna have a wild stab in the dark at Pele's problem. Good old erectile dysfunction?
DK - KEIOC never needed the benefit of hindsight. They predicted everything that happened and told the club from the off it wouldn't happen. It was a genuine attempt to solve somebody's problem, just not Everton's. I will blame BK because he's a grown man who does not have to accept anybody's advice.
You're obviously on a wind-up. I just can't fathom why? I'm gonna have a wild stab in the dark at Pele's problem. Good old erectile dysfunction?
Martin, are you honestly that ill-informed?
I was going to write a lot more but cannot be bothered as you clearly cannot be either. The magic "speaky" box you sit in front of has a lot of information for you to educate yourself with, why not try it before forming an ill-judged opinion without clearly knowing much at all about the subjects in question. That way, you wouldn't make yourself look like a tit.
I was going to write a lot more but cannot be bothered as you clearly cannot be either. The magic "speaky" box you sit in front of has a lot of information for you to educate yourself with, why not try it before forming an ill-judged opinion without clearly knowing much at all about the subjects in question. That way, you wouldn't make yourself look like a tit.
Martin
For all your ill-informed opinions, losing King's Dock and a new home on the 2nd most iconic waterfront in the world will be Kenwright's legacy, shame and how he will be remembered.
Every Evertonian I know says whenever they go past the Arena they think "if only"....
Do a bit of research, study what you find and think for yourself.
For all your ill-informed opinions, losing King's Dock and a new home on the 2nd most iconic waterfront in the world will be Kenwright's legacy, shame and how he will be remembered.
Every Evertonian I know says whenever they go past the Arena they think "if only"....
Do a bit of research, study what you find and think for yourself.
Martin, have you ever considered becoming a politician?
Like I say Martin, if you are a fan.... you and your ilk will kill this club ? NOT Kenwright ? because your a fool, I'm afraid.
Richard Dodd #740,
I think you may well be right on the pubilc/private rules. The thing that confused me was that Usmanov at Arsenal was considering the 30% rule and Arsenal are a private company.
I now understand that some private companies are caught by the rules if their shares have been publically traded in the last 10 years, which Arsenal's were.
So, you're right, the 30% rule shouldn't apply to Everton.
I think you may well be right on the pubilc/private rules. The thing that confused me was that Usmanov at Arsenal was considering the 30% rule and Arsenal are a private company.
I now understand that some private companies are caught by the rules if their shares have been publically traded in the last 10 years, which Arsenal's were.
So, you're right, the 30% rule shouldn't apply to Everton.
You guys are completely missing the point though and whatever you think, most of what you quote is opinion and speculation.
There is only one fact that matters and that is that BK is the owner or owner's representative ? it is his club and he can do what he wants with it.
An opinion ? but as factual as anything I've seen yet ? is that EFC is not going to be sold or invested in and what you see now is what you've got and what you are going to have so start from there. I accept the situation because I don't irrationally demand or expect success when none can be expected other than by black magic. I accept it because I have no right to demand anything.
I have the right to watch the product or not and I exercise that right. I will support the club because I'm a supporter of over 50 years and, like marriage, that includes the bad periods, of which we have had many.
There is only one fact that matters and that is that BK is the owner or owner's representative ? it is his club and he can do what he wants with it.
An opinion ? but as factual as anything I've seen yet ? is that EFC is not going to be sold or invested in and what you see now is what you've got and what you are going to have so start from there. I accept the situation because I don't irrationally demand or expect success when none can be expected other than by black magic. I accept it because I have no right to demand anything.
I have the right to watch the product or not and I exercise that right. I will support the club because I'm a supporter of over 50 years and, like marriage, that includes the bad periods, of which we have had many.
Martin
"... he can do what he wants with it..." ? You really think that? Whatever he wants? Really?
And we'd all stand by and let him?
"... he can do what he wants with it..." ? You really think that? Whatever he wants? Really?
And we'd all stand by and let him?
Er... we could have done that with Johnson.... but we didn't.
We howeled loudly and he fucked off.
We howeled loudly and he fucked off.
Phil, you have no say in the matter; you are a customer that's all.
Don't forget, there are already a small group of disgruntled Everton fans trying to stop him doing what he wants and being particularly unsuccessful.
Don't forget, there are already a small group of disgruntled Everton fans trying to stop him doing what he wants and being particularly unsuccessful.
I seem to remember them being very successful over Kirby, Martin!!
Martin, I don't see many groups outside Goodison in support of Kenwright, but I see a lot of empty seets and 2,000 protesting outside!!
Whilst BK must accept responsibility for what happens on his shift, I believe successive Boards have been `sitting on their hands` ever since Carter took us into the Premier League era as one of the Big Five!
Before then, I don`t think there had been much investment in the last decade of ownership by the Moores family and, once the game changed in 1992, a whole new business model was required... but was never delivered.
Whilst Kenwright and his backers may once have expected a return on their shares, they would now do well to get their money back and, by now, they must surely be cognisant of the hole they are in.
For our part, all we can do is to keep supporting our club and hope that those who direct its affairs can continue to keep the debt within manageable bounds. We may scream for transfer funding but that's the route Rangers and Pompey went down... and boy, look at them now!
Before then, I don`t think there had been much investment in the last decade of ownership by the Moores family and, once the game changed in 1992, a whole new business model was required... but was never delivered.
Whilst Kenwright and his backers may once have expected a return on their shares, they would now do well to get their money back and, by now, they must surely be cognisant of the hole they are in.
For our part, all we can do is to keep supporting our club and hope that those who direct its affairs can continue to keep the debt within manageable bounds. We may scream for transfer funding but that's the route Rangers and Pompey went down... and boy, look at them now!
Martin
I can't believe you're over 50 ? with THAT attitude; you must have had a charmed, if not sheltered life ? do you still pay the Poll Tax and work a 6-day week?
Takes a lot to rouse Goodison to "industrial" action but it's happened in the past and will happen again...
I can't believe you're over 50 ? with THAT attitude; you must have had a charmed, if not sheltered life ? do you still pay the Poll Tax and work a 6-day week?
Takes a lot to rouse Goodison to "industrial" action but it's happened in the past and will happen again...
I hesitate to say it but Mr Dodd is at last entering the real world!
Like so many on here, I hate and detest the Kenwright regime and as for 'business models', I can't imagine he has ever had one that was based on anything but surviving 'this season'.
Personally, I shall continue to shout "Kenwright Out" but, like the esteemed Mr Dodd, I cannot imagine where our next 'leader' could possibly emerge from!
Like so many on here, I hate and detest the Kenwright regime and as for 'business models', I can't imagine he has ever had one that was based on anything but surviving 'this season'.
Personally, I shall continue to shout "Kenwright Out" but, like the esteemed Mr Dodd, I cannot imagine where our next 'leader' could possibly emerge from!
Martin, # 848
Most of your posts are little more than misinformed, mindless drivel, and to be honest not really worth commenting on, but, for the benefit of others, I feel I must put you straight on this point:
?There is only one fact that matters and that is that BK is the owner or owners representative, it is his club and he can do what he wants with it.?
Quite simply Bill Kenwright can?t do what he likes with Everton as they?re a legal entity subject to the legislation outlined in the Companies Act 2006. In plain English, directors are required to:
1) Act in the company's best interests, taking everything relevant into account.
2) Obey the company?s constitution and decisions taken under it.
3) Be honest, and remember that the company's property belongs to it and not its shareholders.
4) Be diligent, careful and well informed about the company's affairs.
5) Make sure the company keeps records of directors decisions.
6) Remember that directors remain responsible for the work they give to others.
7) Avoid situations where interests conflict with those of the company. When in doubt disclose potential conflicts quickly.
8) Seek external advice where necessary, particularly if the company is in financial difficulty.
For Bill Kenwright, Kirkby clearly represented a dereliction of duty in his capacity as a director and chairman. Fans and shareholders alike were misled over the claim that Tesco were providing a £52m cross-subsidy towards the construction costs of the £130m stadium. It was proven beyond all doubt during the inquiry into this fiasco that Tesco WERE NOT PROVIDING ANY MONEY WHATSOEVER . The £52m was simply a value derived from the increase value of the land once planning permission was obtained. You can read all about it here:
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/everton-fc/everton-fc-stadium/2008/12/11/everton-inquiry-mystery-surrounds-kirkby-s-52million-economic-miracle-99623-22451792/
Once this fact was confirmed, and that is what it is, FACT, not conjecture or speculation, Bill Kenwright and his ragbag associates that pass for a board, should have been run out of Goodison as quite simply he had lied and let's be honest it's not the first time.
In the absence of the £52m actually existing, Everton were paying for the total construction cost of the stadium, £78m, after the completion of which Everton?s balance sheet would have been the recipient of the £52m value.
It?s a convenient coincidence that this £52m essentially equates to the value wiped off the balance sheet during Kenwright?s tenure due to the disposal of assets and increased borrowings.
The plan after Kirkby was clear. The major shareholders were going to cash-in on this windfall as despite telling the inquiry the club wasn?t for sale it was a different story three months earlier when Bill Kenwright told the shareholders not only was it for sale but that he had employed Keith Harris to find a new owner and we all remember who he found don?t we!
Bill Kenwright is a demonstrably worse chairman that Peter Johnson, the facts are staring everyone in the face, you only have to look at the balance sheet.
If anyone can prove otherwise, without resorting to the mindless boys pen, putting his house on the line, holes in his shoes, Eddie Cavanagh lies, then the floor is all yours.
Nobody to my knowledge wants Kenwright to sell up just for the sake of it; the message is clear, bring in some professionals who can conduct the sale in place of the amateurs that are currently getting nowhere.
Most of your posts are little more than misinformed, mindless drivel, and to be honest not really worth commenting on, but, for the benefit of others, I feel I must put you straight on this point:
?There is only one fact that matters and that is that BK is the owner or owners representative, it is his club and he can do what he wants with it.?
Quite simply Bill Kenwright can?t do what he likes with Everton as they?re a legal entity subject to the legislation outlined in the Companies Act 2006. In plain English, directors are required to:
1) Act in the company's best interests, taking everything relevant into account.
2) Obey the company?s constitution and decisions taken under it.
3) Be honest, and remember that the company's property belongs to it and not its shareholders.
4) Be diligent, careful and well informed about the company's affairs.
5) Make sure the company keeps records of directors decisions.
6) Remember that directors remain responsible for the work they give to others.
7) Avoid situations where interests conflict with those of the company. When in doubt disclose potential conflicts quickly.
8) Seek external advice where necessary, particularly if the company is in financial difficulty.
For Bill Kenwright, Kirkby clearly represented a dereliction of duty in his capacity as a director and chairman. Fans and shareholders alike were misled over the claim that Tesco were providing a £52m cross-subsidy towards the construction costs of the £130m stadium. It was proven beyond all doubt during the inquiry into this fiasco that Tesco WERE NOT PROVIDING ANY MONEY WHATSOEVER . The £52m was simply a value derived from the increase value of the land once planning permission was obtained. You can read all about it here:
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/sport/everton-fc/everton-fc-stadium/2008/12/11/everton-inquiry-mystery-surrounds-kirkby-s-52million-economic-miracle-99623-22451792/
Once this fact was confirmed, and that is what it is, FACT, not conjecture or speculation, Bill Kenwright and his ragbag associates that pass for a board, should have been run out of Goodison as quite simply he had lied and let's be honest it's not the first time.
In the absence of the £52m actually existing, Everton were paying for the total construction cost of the stadium, £78m, after the completion of which Everton?s balance sheet would have been the recipient of the £52m value.
It?s a convenient coincidence that this £52m essentially equates to the value wiped off the balance sheet during Kenwright?s tenure due to the disposal of assets and increased borrowings.
The plan after Kirkby was clear. The major shareholders were going to cash-in on this windfall as despite telling the inquiry the club wasn?t for sale it was a different story three months earlier when Bill Kenwright told the shareholders not only was it for sale but that he had employed Keith Harris to find a new owner and we all remember who he found don?t we!
Bill Kenwright is a demonstrably worse chairman that Peter Johnson, the facts are staring everyone in the face, you only have to look at the balance sheet.
If anyone can prove otherwise, without resorting to the mindless boys pen, putting his house on the line, holes in his shoes, Eddie Cavanagh lies, then the floor is all yours.
Nobody to my knowledge wants Kenwright to sell up just for the sake of it; the message is clear, bring in some professionals who can conduct the sale in place of the amateurs that are currently getting nowhere.
Thanks Colin, saved me the time and effort.
Thank you Colin for saving me chucking the monitor through the window.
Martin MUST be a wind-up merchant; if not, by God, we've got a fight on our hands if there's many more Evertonians like him. (He does come across as a 30-something post-Sky man, though)
Martin... the floor is yours but you are, I fear, out of ammo in this battle of wits.
Martin MUST be a wind-up merchant; if not, by God, we've got a fight on our hands if there's many more Evertonians like him. (He does come across as a 30-something post-Sky man, though)
Martin... the floor is yours but you are, I fear, out of ammo in this battle of wits.
Stopped listening to Martin Mason the very first (of many) times he spouted his ''just a small club'' shite.
Well done Colin, for saying (again), what needed to be said.
Well done Colin, for saying (again), what needed to be said.
It's funny how Richard Dodd seems to be growing more realistic in his opinions but Martin Mason is sounding more like the deluded Doddy we were so used to!
Colin, most of it is just opinion stated as fact I'm afraid. Even the link you posted doesn't show any facts only the opinion of a Barrister who openly admits that he doesn't understand the issues. You certainly don't. There isn't a shred of evidence that he hasn't upheld any of points 1-8 and you don't have a clue of the reality of what happened over Kirkby.
If you can substantiate any of your accusations then lets have the evidence to the authorities, if he's broken one law then let's use this to oust him. You won't do this of course and neither will anybody else. In the absence of any actual evidence of malfeasance then it's far better that you stop the whingeing and get behind the club.
Remember also, as soon as you start the name-calling, as many of you have, it is a sign that either you have lost the argument, that you had no argument in the first place, or you don't have the intelligenge to be in the argument anyway.
Also, don't believe that the definition of 'deluded' is anybody that doesn't agree with you neither. I believe that I am in the very large majority of Everton fans who are realistic regarding what can and can't be done at the club. The majority don't come near to this site though because anything other than BK out Moyes out is shouted down. I post because I believe in freedom of speech and balanced discussions over the issues.
Come on, my challenge is on the table, evidence of malfeasance, not an action you don't happen to agree with, not an opinion but evidence of braking of the law.
Bill Kenwright is a demonstrably worse chairman than Peter Johnson? Then demonstrate it. Is the balance sheet the evidence? absolute nonsense, it is a part of the picture and that is all. Look at the team and how we perform year-in, year-out.
If you can substantiate any of your accusations then lets have the evidence to the authorities, if he's broken one law then let's use this to oust him. You won't do this of course and neither will anybody else. In the absence of any actual evidence of malfeasance then it's far better that you stop the whingeing and get behind the club.
Remember also, as soon as you start the name-calling, as many of you have, it is a sign that either you have lost the argument, that you had no argument in the first place, or you don't have the intelligenge to be in the argument anyway.
Also, don't believe that the definition of 'deluded' is anybody that doesn't agree with you neither. I believe that I am in the very large majority of Everton fans who are realistic regarding what can and can't be done at the club. The majority don't come near to this site though because anything other than BK out Moyes out is shouted down. I post because I believe in freedom of speech and balanced discussions over the issues.
Come on, my challenge is on the table, evidence of malfeasance, not an action you don't happen to agree with, not an opinion but evidence of braking of the law.
Bill Kenwright is a demonstrably worse chairman than Peter Johnson? Then demonstrate it. Is the balance sheet the evidence? absolute nonsense, it is a part of the picture and that is all. Look at the team and how we perform year-in, year-out.
Martin "Kirkby was bad with the benefit of hindsight but on the face of it was an opportunity to get a ground for reduced cost. It was a genuine attempt to solve our problems."
That's the definition of deluded.
That's the definition of deluded.
Where is this majority Martin, where are they when 2000 of us are outside protesting? they should be backing there man.
Martin, I don't want to call you names, but I am genuinely puzzled by your posts.
You have surely seen and read a lot of the stuff that's been written on here and elsewhere by concerned Evertonians in endless articles and comments, a litany of infractions that constitute a dereliction of duty (but probably not malfeasance that could or would ever be proven in a court of law). I won't go through the list again, as there is obviously no point. I'm more interested in Why there is no point repeating it all, since it's just not getting through? The best efforts of some of the smartest and brightest Evertonains are worth nothing to you... How can this be?
I regret the abuse your position attracts, but I understand it all too well because I share the same view of these events ? the stagnation and decline that that Bill and his pals have overseen.
Is it really only a viewpoint though, only an opinion, as you claim? And is that how you rationalise not addressing the lies he has told? The utter crass and deliberate deception of every Evertonian that was Destination Kirkby? How can you say that is just an opinion? The shamefaced twaddle that was Fortress Sports Fund? I'm sorry... I'm listing them.
How is that they are engrained on the minds of some Evertonians but not others? You believe Bill can do anything he wants with the club, and yet, with surely full knowledge of his shameful record, you chose to ignore it all and instead throw your total support behind the club (and therefore everything Bill chooses to do). No real criticism; only "constructive" criticism.
You have surely seen and read a lot of the stuff that's been written on here and elsewhere by concerned Evertonians in endless articles and comments, a litany of infractions that constitute a dereliction of duty (but probably not malfeasance that could or would ever be proven in a court of law). I won't go through the list again, as there is obviously no point. I'm more interested in Why there is no point repeating it all, since it's just not getting through? The best efforts of some of the smartest and brightest Evertonains are worth nothing to you... How can this be?
I regret the abuse your position attracts, but I understand it all too well because I share the same view of these events ? the stagnation and decline that that Bill and his pals have overseen.
Is it really only a viewpoint though, only an opinion, as you claim? And is that how you rationalise not addressing the lies he has told? The utter crass and deliberate deception of every Evertonian that was Destination Kirkby? How can you say that is just an opinion? The shamefaced twaddle that was Fortress Sports Fund? I'm sorry... I'm listing them.
How is that they are engrained on the minds of some Evertonians but not others? You believe Bill can do anything he wants with the club, and yet, with surely full knowledge of his shameful record, you chose to ignore it all and instead throw your total support behind the club (and therefore everything Bill chooses to do). No real criticism; only "constructive" criticism.
Martin, Bill told the enquiry that the club was not for sale yet he told the shareholders that it was. This is documented.
Or is this just opinion?
Will we ask him to call round to your house and admit it? Even if he did, I still doubt very much whether you would accept it.
Or is this just opinion?
Will we ask him to call round to your house and admit it? Even if he did, I still doubt very much whether you would accept it.
Martin #001
Only someone who is exceptionally thick could believe that the recorded exchange, during the cross-examination process at the Government Inquiry into destination Kirkby, between Stephen Sauvain QC and Ms Sheena Ramsay, CEO of Knowsley Council, was a mere opinion.
The moment Ramsay said, ?Tesco will fund the £52m through the increase in the value of the land brought about through the development.? Bill Kenwright should have been given his marching orders.
You clearly have never seen a QC in action. When Sauvain stated, ?Tesco?s expert doesn?t think the money is coming from Tesco and Ms Ramsey doesn?t think it?s coming from Knowsley, so it?s a miracle of modern economics because nobody is prepared to tell you what the situation really is.? ? he isn?t stating that due to ignorance, he?s mocking the witness, he?s theatrically feigning a lack of knowledge to highlight the ridiculous nature of the claim that Tesco were providing Everton with £52m hence his statement, ?It is far from clear.? It was of course very clear to him, and to everybody else present, what was being attempted.
To elucidate, Tesco were provided with the land to build this development by Knowsley Council for a sum that to this day remains undisclosed; some claim that this public land was provided free of charge or at best, for less than commercial value, which could hardly have met the required ?best value? criteria which councils are meant to comply with; a situation that the most corrupt council on Merseyside would hardly lose sleep over. This land was to be used for the development known as Destination Kirkby which comprised a supermarket, a retail park and a football stadium. When greenfield land obtains planning permission its value increases considerably hence Ramsay?s ?value? statement.
None of this was news to those Evertonians attending the public inquiry; long before Tesco?s witness, Alan Black, couldn?t explain the source of Tesco?s alleged cross-subsidy to Stephen Sauvain QC, Tesco had put Everton straight after deciding not to become embroiled in Everton?s own masquerade; after all, they had plenty of their own subterfuge to deal with.
This is the verbatim statement from Keith Wyness on Wednesday 18th of July 2007,
?Normally when a club has to look for a new stadium, it has to look at financing the whole depth of the new stadium itself. In this case we have been able to work with Tesco and Knowsley to create a situation where Tesco will make a contribution of £50m towards the cost of a new stadium. That is a huge contribution and we believe that with stadium naming rights and proceeds from the sale of Goodison and with some additional debt that we will be able to deliver a world class stadium that will be up there with anything in the Premiership."
This is what Everton were telling their fans and shareholders before, and after, the vote on Kirkby. It is clear what they are saying; they are saying that Tesco were contributing £50m towards the COST of the stadium.
Later that day, at 18:30, Tesco?s corporate affairs manager, Tony Fletcher, sent this email to Radio Merseyside, again verbatim:
"Reports in a number of news outlets today have stated that Tesco will fund £50m towards the cost of a new stadium for Everton FC. Tesco wish to point out that the intention would be for the proposed stadium funding package to be derived from the value generated by the overall retail led development scheme not as a result of direct funding from Tesco."
It is an indisputable fact that Everton misled their fans and shareholders and, as I have already explained, this, as outlined in the 2006 Companies Act, is the sole responsibility of Bill Kenwright and as a result of this he shouldn?t be Chairman, shouldn?t be on the board and in my opinion shouldn?t be allowed in Goodison Park.
I always laugh when some fucking idiot starts with the name calling excuse; ah, has the naughty man upset you in your little fantasy world? It's okay to annoy me with the ignorance and fuckwittery but heaven forbid if somebody describes them for what they are. [Do you see what I've done there?]
Martin, the reality is anyone who wishes to comment but can?t understand what went on at Kirkby is a fuckwit. I appreciate I have an advantage over you as I was actually there and you will always be sitting behind your keyboard in your underpants. You never experienced the stuttering and shaking Sheena Ramsay as she was reduced to a quivering mess under questioning, you didn?t see the planning inspectors shaking their heads at the ludicrous answers given by witnesses for the applicants nor the laughter at the inadequacy of the transport provision when it was revealed that buses, which did not exist, would be arriving and departing every 14 seconds to pick up those fans who didn't want to walk the two miles back to their cars or be penned in before being crush-loaded onto trains.
You have no challenge on the table, Martin. A balance sheet tells you the health of the business; Everton?s balance sheet in 1999 described an ailing business, £20m in debt but with £20m of assets. In 2011 it tells you that it is terminally ill, £47m of debt and now with £35m of liabilities on the balance sheet.
Everton cannot continue to operate in the amateurish manner Kenwright provides whilst our peers are becoming more and more professional. He may feel lies and stupid stories about the Boys Pen makes him the best person to run the club, but to me he's just an even greater liability than the £35m liabilities he?s left Everton with.
It?s pathetic talking to people like you; I give you the facts, not opinion, FACTS, offer you the floor to prove otherwise and you parade your ignorance like a badge of [dis]honour and come up with some ridiculous challenge.
Like others your "opinions" are worthless and your misconceptions detestable.
Only someone who is exceptionally thick could believe that the recorded exchange, during the cross-examination process at the Government Inquiry into destination Kirkby, between Stephen Sauvain QC and Ms Sheena Ramsay, CEO of Knowsley Council, was a mere opinion.
The moment Ramsay said, ?Tesco will fund the £52m through the increase in the value of the land brought about through the development.? Bill Kenwright should have been given his marching orders.
You clearly have never seen a QC in action. When Sauvain stated, ?Tesco?s expert doesn?t think the money is coming from Tesco and Ms Ramsey doesn?t think it?s coming from Knowsley, so it?s a miracle of modern economics because nobody is prepared to tell you what the situation really is.? ? he isn?t stating that due to ignorance, he?s mocking the witness, he?s theatrically feigning a lack of knowledge to highlight the ridiculous nature of the claim that Tesco were providing Everton with £52m hence his statement, ?It is far from clear.? It was of course very clear to him, and to everybody else present, what was being attempted.
To elucidate, Tesco were provided with the land to build this development by Knowsley Council for a sum that to this day remains undisclosed; some claim that this public land was provided free of charge or at best, for less than commercial value, which could hardly have met the required ?best value? criteria which councils are meant to comply with; a situation that the most corrupt council on Merseyside would hardly lose sleep over. This land was to be used for the development known as Destination Kirkby which comprised a supermarket, a retail park and a football stadium. When greenfield land obtains planning permission its value increases considerably hence Ramsay?s ?value? statement.
None of this was news to those Evertonians attending the public inquiry; long before Tesco?s witness, Alan Black, couldn?t explain the source of Tesco?s alleged cross-subsidy to Stephen Sauvain QC, Tesco had put Everton straight after deciding not to become embroiled in Everton?s own masquerade; after all, they had plenty of their own subterfuge to deal with.
This is the verbatim statement from Keith Wyness on Wednesday 18th of July 2007,
?Normally when a club has to look for a new stadium, it has to look at financing the whole depth of the new stadium itself. In this case we have been able to work with Tesco and Knowsley to create a situation where Tesco will make a contribution of £50m towards the cost of a new stadium. That is a huge contribution and we believe that with stadium naming rights and proceeds from the sale of Goodison and with some additional debt that we will be able to deliver a world class stadium that will be up there with anything in the Premiership."
This is what Everton were telling their fans and shareholders before, and after, the vote on Kirkby. It is clear what they are saying; they are saying that Tesco were contributing £50m towards the COST of the stadium.
Later that day, at 18:30, Tesco?s corporate affairs manager, Tony Fletcher, sent this email to Radio Merseyside, again verbatim:
"Reports in a number of news outlets today have stated that Tesco will fund £50m towards the cost of a new stadium for Everton FC. Tesco wish to point out that the intention would be for the proposed stadium funding package to be derived from the value generated by the overall retail led development scheme not as a result of direct funding from Tesco."
It is an indisputable fact that Everton misled their fans and shareholders and, as I have already explained, this, as outlined in the 2006 Companies Act, is the sole responsibility of Bill Kenwright and as a result of this he shouldn?t be Chairman, shouldn?t be on the board and in my opinion shouldn?t be allowed in Goodison Park.
I always laugh when some fucking idiot starts with the name calling excuse; ah, has the naughty man upset you in your little fantasy world? It's okay to annoy me with the ignorance and fuckwittery but heaven forbid if somebody describes them for what they are. [Do you see what I've done there?]
Martin, the reality is anyone who wishes to comment but can?t understand what went on at Kirkby is a fuckwit. I appreciate I have an advantage over you as I was actually there and you will always be sitting behind your keyboard in your underpants. You never experienced the stuttering and shaking Sheena Ramsay as she was reduced to a quivering mess under questioning, you didn?t see the planning inspectors shaking their heads at the ludicrous answers given by witnesses for the applicants nor the laughter at the inadequacy of the transport provision when it was revealed that buses, which did not exist, would be arriving and departing every 14 seconds to pick up those fans who didn't want to walk the two miles back to their cars or be penned in before being crush-loaded onto trains.
You have no challenge on the table, Martin. A balance sheet tells you the health of the business; Everton?s balance sheet in 1999 described an ailing business, £20m in debt but with £20m of assets. In 2011 it tells you that it is terminally ill, £47m of debt and now with £35m of liabilities on the balance sheet.
Everton cannot continue to operate in the amateurish manner Kenwright provides whilst our peers are becoming more and more professional. He may feel lies and stupid stories about the Boys Pen makes him the best person to run the club, but to me he's just an even greater liability than the £35m liabilities he?s left Everton with.
It?s pathetic talking to people like you; I give you the facts, not opinion, FACTS, offer you the floor to prove otherwise and you parade your ignorance like a badge of [dis]honour and come up with some ridiculous challenge.
Like others your "opinions" are worthless and your misconceptions detestable.
btw Martin, think you need to ask somebody the meaning of malfeasance.
It's no good posting reams of response saying the same old things; give evidence of malfeasance please. When you have it I'll help you get rid of Kenwright. Then what do we do? I can also read and form my own opinions and I spent many days in court last year listening to a QC thank you.
Michael, I've read the many threads on here on the same old issues, I've read reams and reams on King's Dock and Kirkby and I can tell you that the vast majority of the multitude of posts on here are opinions derived around a framework of very few basic facts and that is all. It's great because this is a forum where people state their opinions and in that respect mine are as valid as anybody's unless you can show what I say to be incorrect in which case I'll accept it. Opinions must not be stated as fact and then anybody disagreeing with them shouted down. My points about the name-calling are absolutely valid
I don't say that BK has been the best Director we could have had, anything but; what I'm saying is that he is at worse guilty of bad decision-making and of course dreadful communication with the fans. I also believe that he has probably always acted in what he thought was the best interest of the Club. I'd offer another challenge because I don't believe that anybody can or will answer the first one. What would any new man do now if he came in to replace BK?
I ask this because to my eyes the club is being run fairly well now and in an almost sustainable way. We can't really continue at the level we are though because sometime we have to start spending money on the ground and this can only be at the expense of spending it on players. We are not only punching above our weight but our weight is higher than it can remain at.
I'll say again (opinion note) I don't believe EFC can be sold and It's not credible that there will be investment without control. BK isn't going to move and from his actions it looks as though criticism is forcing him ever more into a bunker. Where do we go from that starting point?
If Trust Everton gets going then I will contribute a significant amount of money to help the club, that's what supporters do. I will not undermine the club though when it is down and certainly not on the basis of events that I don't have all information on. On the face of it, the Club made a real balls of the Kirkby fiasco but it is over and we have a future to secure. It also looks very much as though it is going to be with BK at the helm.
Michael, I've read the many threads on here on the same old issues, I've read reams and reams on King's Dock and Kirkby and I can tell you that the vast majority of the multitude of posts on here are opinions derived around a framework of very few basic facts and that is all. It's great because this is a forum where people state their opinions and in that respect mine are as valid as anybody's unless you can show what I say to be incorrect in which case I'll accept it. Opinions must not be stated as fact and then anybody disagreeing with them shouted down. My points about the name-calling are absolutely valid
I don't say that BK has been the best Director we could have had, anything but; what I'm saying is that he is at worse guilty of bad decision-making and of course dreadful communication with the fans. I also believe that he has probably always acted in what he thought was the best interest of the Club. I'd offer another challenge because I don't believe that anybody can or will answer the first one. What would any new man do now if he came in to replace BK?
I ask this because to my eyes the club is being run fairly well now and in an almost sustainable way. We can't really continue at the level we are though because sometime we have to start spending money on the ground and this can only be at the expense of spending it on players. We are not only punching above our weight but our weight is higher than it can remain at.
I'll say again (opinion note) I don't believe EFC can be sold and It's not credible that there will be investment without control. BK isn't going to move and from his actions it looks as though criticism is forcing him ever more into a bunker. Where do we go from that starting point?
If Trust Everton gets going then I will contribute a significant amount of money to help the club, that's what supporters do. I will not undermine the club though when it is down and certainly not on the basis of events that I don't have all information on. On the face of it, the Club made a real balls of the Kirkby fiasco but it is over and we have a future to secure. It also looks very much as though it is going to be with BK at the helm.
Totally agree with your line of reasoning, Martin, although I`m far less convinced than I used to be that Blue Bill can see us through this crisis.
But the more I read The Daily Record reports of what`s happening to Rangers, the more I fear for a sale to a £1 purchaser. Like Everton,`Gers had flogged everything off ? season tickets, catering, retail ? and had nowhere to go when Craig Whyte offered his coin, which he probably borrowed off `Our Walter`!
Thank God we`ve no EBTs at Goodison.... have we?
But the more I read The Daily Record reports of what`s happening to Rangers, the more I fear for a sale to a £1 purchaser. Like Everton,`Gers had flogged everything off ? season tickets, catering, retail ? and had nowhere to go when Craig Whyte offered his coin, which he probably borrowed off `Our Walter`!
Thank God we`ve no EBTs at Goodison.... have we?
Martin, without getting into details I think we can all agree that the club as been in a consistent decline since BK's Chairmanship. Given this fact, how can you justify the 'better the devil you know' attitude? Following this principle only leads to one conclusion, and it's not a good one.
I believe that a better board of directors could and would run the club much much better. The communication with the fans (who provide a significant revenue stream to the club!) should be far better for starters. There also does not seem to be any clear plan or strategy to get us out of this mess. All I can see from the club is a 'head in the sand' attitude and hope that Sky money will keep us afloat for the foreseeable future, with the probable sale of better players as the annual losses start building up.
Most Everton fans are not idiots. We know that the club is in trouble and would probably be willing to see the likes of Rodwell, Barkely, Jags etc sold, if the club could show us a clear strategy going forward using the proceeds. The problem most people have now is that they simply don't have faith in the current regime (or are just apathetic) and so don't trust them to be able to solve the problems (which they got us into). We don't want to see them sell our best assets (players) just to piss the money up the wall through bad management. Right now, there is hope of turning it around if we had better management.
Given this state of play, do you really want BK to remain for the forseeable future or would you rather see some fans protesting to try to effect change or at least get the board to fucking start doing something proactive? As usual, the silence from GP top management is defeaning.
Also, your earlier statement of 'BK can do whatever he wants with the club as he owns it' is actually insulting to most Everton Fans. A football club is not like a normal business. Gate receipts may not make up the majority of the club's revenue stream but without the paying fans the club would not exist at all. BK simply cannot do what he wants and this kind of attitude is another major problem! Eventually he and the rest will be gone, I just hope it's not too late by then.
I will agree with you on one thing ? whist BK runs the 'sale' process, there is going to be no change at the top in the near future.
I believe that a better board of directors could and would run the club much much better. The communication with the fans (who provide a significant revenue stream to the club!) should be far better for starters. There also does not seem to be any clear plan or strategy to get us out of this mess. All I can see from the club is a 'head in the sand' attitude and hope that Sky money will keep us afloat for the foreseeable future, with the probable sale of better players as the annual losses start building up.
Most Everton fans are not idiots. We know that the club is in trouble and would probably be willing to see the likes of Rodwell, Barkely, Jags etc sold, if the club could show us a clear strategy going forward using the proceeds. The problem most people have now is that they simply don't have faith in the current regime (or are just apathetic) and so don't trust them to be able to solve the problems (which they got us into). We don't want to see them sell our best assets (players) just to piss the money up the wall through bad management. Right now, there is hope of turning it around if we had better management.
Given this state of play, do you really want BK to remain for the forseeable future or would you rather see some fans protesting to try to effect change or at least get the board to fucking start doing something proactive? As usual, the silence from GP top management is defeaning.
Also, your earlier statement of 'BK can do whatever he wants with the club as he owns it' is actually insulting to most Everton Fans. A football club is not like a normal business. Gate receipts may not make up the majority of the club's revenue stream but without the paying fans the club would not exist at all. BK simply cannot do what he wants and this kind of attitude is another major problem! Eventually he and the rest will be gone, I just hope it's not too late by then.
I will agree with you on one thing ? whist BK runs the 'sale' process, there is going to be no change at the top in the near future.
Can`t agree, Dennis, that to date players have been sold and money "pissed up the wall". The money may not ALWAYS have been used wisely but the vast majority of it has `gone to Finch Farm` to pay ever-increasing wages and running costs.
That this is fact is borne out by the team`s ability under Moyes to keep us continually in the top half of the Prem. Unless you are saying the accounts are a pure fabrication (and show evidence of that fact) then what we have has GENERALLY been applied well. The problem is that the income column just isn`t good enough to guarantee this continuing!
That this is fact is borne out by the team`s ability under Moyes to keep us continually in the top half of the Prem. Unless you are saying the accounts are a pure fabrication (and show evidence of that fact) then what we have has GENERALLY been applied well. The problem is that the income column just isn`t good enough to guarantee this continuing!
Denis, I could argue that the club has really been in decline since we imploded after the 1970 Championship win and it could be argued that the club has actually done quite well under BKs stewardship. Perhaps not in balance sheet terms but certainly in consistently decent league positions (they are related values). Surely we have improved dramatically since those disgusting relegation struggles and signing train wrecks like Gazza and Ginola?
I agree that a better board would have run the club better. My point is that we are really unlikely to get a better board as we are not going to be sold. I?d sooner not see BK there for the foreseeable future but he is owner of the club and, if he goes, how do you assess the capability of his replacement? Look at Rangers and Blackburn.
Of course most of our fans are not idiots, I have had massive respect for them over the years and I?m not a scouser other than by birth. I also have the same aspirations for the club as you all do but all aspirations have to be achievable otherwise they are just wishes. ?BK out? fails on two points in that it is almost certainly not achievable and as an aim in itself is no guarantee that the long-term decline of EFC can be arrested. While the board seems to have no strategy for increasing EFCs income (if indeed that is possible) we the fans have no strategy other than BK out, Moyes out, which isn?t a strategy as there is no answer to what happens after that other than ?better management?.
Where I really agree with you is in the communication between the management and the fans. I say (with tongue in cheek) we are only customers but we are really far more important. The problem is that confrontation has driven BK into the bunker where hie is less likely to communicate. I?d really welcome him to address a forum of fans to explain what has been and is going on but I don?t blame him for not doing so. I thought the shouting at him in the car park was both disrespectful and very harmful to the cause. He is a proud man who has done well and he deserves some dignity. Whilst communication is the solution, I see no improvement.
I understand your sentiment over the nature of football club as a business but I won?t add any more to the many words that have been written on this.
Thank you for the rational response.
I agree that a better board would have run the club better. My point is that we are really unlikely to get a better board as we are not going to be sold. I?d sooner not see BK there for the foreseeable future but he is owner of the club and, if he goes, how do you assess the capability of his replacement? Look at Rangers and Blackburn.
Of course most of our fans are not idiots, I have had massive respect for them over the years and I?m not a scouser other than by birth. I also have the same aspirations for the club as you all do but all aspirations have to be achievable otherwise they are just wishes. ?BK out? fails on two points in that it is almost certainly not achievable and as an aim in itself is no guarantee that the long-term decline of EFC can be arrested. While the board seems to have no strategy for increasing EFCs income (if indeed that is possible) we the fans have no strategy other than BK out, Moyes out, which isn?t a strategy as there is no answer to what happens after that other than ?better management?.
Where I really agree with you is in the communication between the management and the fans. I say (with tongue in cheek) we are only customers but we are really far more important. The problem is that confrontation has driven BK into the bunker where hie is less likely to communicate. I?d really welcome him to address a forum of fans to explain what has been and is going on but I don?t blame him for not doing so. I thought the shouting at him in the car park was both disrespectful and very harmful to the cause. He is a proud man who has done well and he deserves some dignity. Whilst communication is the solution, I see no improvement.
I understand your sentiment over the nature of football club as a business but I won?t add any more to the many words that have been written on this.
Thank you for the rational response.
The world is spherical. This is a fact, not an opinion.
Kopites are, indeed gobshites. Again, a fact, not an opinion.
Bill Kenwright and other members of Everton FC's hierarchy, past and present, have continually lied to the clubs fans, over the past decade. Fact.
Don't understand why some people don't get it.
Kopites are, indeed gobshites. Again, a fact, not an opinion.
Bill Kenwright and other members of Everton FC's hierarchy, past and present, have continually lied to the clubs fans, over the past decade. Fact.
Don't understand why some people don't get it.
Doddy, some statement there... almost laughable in context, and I quote you: "`Gers had flogged everything off ? season tickets, catering, retail ? and had nowhere to go when Craig Whyte offered his coin,which he probably borrowed off `Our Walter`!"
Let's look at that comparison:
1. Flogged off season tickets ? ever heard of the Bear Stearns loan? Way before Rangers, BK had already done it and we'll be paying that one a long time yet.
2. Catering ? again look no further than BK, done it already with very poor returns.
3. Retail ? my God this is easy, BK done it got the t-shirt and badge of dishonour already.
4. Nowhere left to go ? sounds just like your beloved BK with shady BVI loans and BVI based investment arms for a major shareholder who isn't seen at the ground for years at a time, everything bar what few player contracts we have left, stadium mortgaged to the hilt several times over, training ground sold to pay part of one of many loans, smallest team in the EPL, borrowed against EPL membership for next few years... and these are the ones in the public domain
5. Probably borrowed the pound off our Walter ? hmm... borrowed money from Anita Gregg then shafted her and her husband; borrowed from Phil Green ? and did Earl also front Green money?
Let's look at that comparison:
1. Flogged off season tickets ? ever heard of the Bear Stearns loan? Way before Rangers, BK had already done it and we'll be paying that one a long time yet.
2. Catering ? again look no further than BK, done it already with very poor returns.
3. Retail ? my God this is easy, BK done it got the t-shirt and badge of dishonour already.
4. Nowhere left to go ? sounds just like your beloved BK with shady BVI loans and BVI based investment arms for a major shareholder who isn't seen at the ground for years at a time, everything bar what few player contracts we have left, stadium mortgaged to the hilt several times over, training ground sold to pay part of one of many loans, smallest team in the EPL, borrowed against EPL membership for next few years... and these are the ones in the public domain
5. Probably borrowed the pound off our Walter ? hmm... borrowed money from Anita Gregg then shafted her and her husband; borrowed from Phil Green ? and did Earl also front Green money?
Head... wall... bang, Colin.
I think we should just leave Martin to stick his tongue even further into his check or elsewhere.
I note he is beginning now to backtrack on his shameful "small" club jibe and positing us fans as mere "customers".
I think we should just leave Martin to stick his tongue even further into his check or elsewhere.
I note he is beginning now to backtrack on his shameful "small" club jibe and positing us fans as mere "customers".
Exactly Gavin. What some people also conveniently forget, is that although Craig Whyte is obviously a scamming bastard and should never have been allowed to take over at Rangers, what he bought for a quid was an ailing club, brought to the brink by the previous, unfit, useless chairman.
Remind you of anyone?
Remind you of anyone?
Gavin and Colin, can you read?
If the answer is yes I suggest you put the pitchforks down, climb down of your extremely high horses and return to Richard's post.
Once you've read it you might want to apologise to him for taking the piss.
If the answer is yes I suggest you put the pitchforks down, climb down of your extremely high horses and return to Richard's post.
Once you've read it you might want to apologise to him for taking the piss.
Gavram ? that`s what I said! `Like Everton,`Gers had flogged off everything......``
But by no stretch of the imagination is BB a Craig Whyte, mate ? he had to borrow more than a quid!
But by no stretch of the imagination is BB a Craig Whyte, mate ? he had to borrow more than a quid!
060 Doddy, I can only assume that you know where the £24million of other operating costs have gone!! To say our finances have been applied well, did you not see Ross's emails?
Not taking the piss Jimmy. Don't see how you formed that opinion tbh.
Just saying, in Richard's rush to use Whyte as the poster boy for the ''be careful what you wish for'' crowd, he forgets that the previous chairman of the club is just as much to blame.
I also don't like extremely high horses. Or pitchforks.
Just saying, in Richard's rush to use Whyte as the poster boy for the ''be careful what you wish for'' crowd, he forgets that the previous chairman of the club is just as much to blame.
I also don't like extremely high horses. Or pitchforks.
Martin: I'll say again (opinion note) I don't believe EFC can be sold.
Perhaps our esteemed leader has made it a rather less than attractive proposition, a situation compounded by the ridiculous valuation.
As for the future, can you really see the current owners getting their act together to provide the club with the ground redevelopment or new stadium we so badly require, in the decade preferably, as that will only be nearly 30 YEARS since the issue was first raised, to safeguard the future of the club? How are we going to stay in the division at a stadium which means that we are pretty much financially capped? How about some transfer cash, not generated by player sales, for the manager, instead of running the squad down and playing chance with our Premier League status?
Things stay as they are and we will eventually be extinct as a top flight club.
With our debt level and ground, the future would... well (opinion), it's likely there wouldn't be one.
I take issue with your claim in an earlier post that the club, to your eyes, is now being well run. Unless I also should be buzzing about managing to convince the bank not to close us down, pacifying them with a few million quid and bringing in a few loans to bolster the smallest squad in the league, one that looked like it was sinking towards a relegation battle before the adrenaline shot of new personnel.
Perhaps our esteemed leader has made it a rather less than attractive proposition, a situation compounded by the ridiculous valuation.
As for the future, can you really see the current owners getting their act together to provide the club with the ground redevelopment or new stadium we so badly require, in the decade preferably, as that will only be nearly 30 YEARS since the issue was first raised, to safeguard the future of the club? How are we going to stay in the division at a stadium which means that we are pretty much financially capped? How about some transfer cash, not generated by player sales, for the manager, instead of running the squad down and playing chance with our Premier League status?
Things stay as they are and we will eventually be extinct as a top flight club.
With our debt level and ground, the future would... well (opinion), it's likely there wouldn't be one.
I take issue with your claim in an earlier post that the club, to your eyes, is now being well run. Unless I also should be buzzing about managing to convince the bank not to close us down, pacifying them with a few million quid and bringing in a few loans to bolster the smallest squad in the league, one that looked like it was sinking towards a relegation battle before the adrenaline shot of new personnel.
Seriously Colin, read it again...
Richard ? every business has 'operating costs' which are not itemised in their accounts. If those included in Everton`s figures did not stand up, the auditors would have qualified the accounts ? and those auditors are not a back street company as some on here would have us believe.
Don't make allegations you can't prove!
Don't make allegations you can't prove!
Doddy, Rangers were sold for a £1, for the reasons listed above.
Its rapidly becoming clear we ain't worth a great deal more.
The club has been destroyed and appears virtually unsellable at anything other than a nominal price.
You reap what you sow. The type of character attracted by the £1 valuation may well be yet another of Blue Bill's golden legacys.
He has zero credibility.
Its rapidly becoming clear we ain't worth a great deal more.
The club has been destroyed and appears virtually unsellable at anything other than a nominal price.
You reap what you sow. The type of character attracted by the £1 valuation may well be yet another of Blue Bill's golden legacys.
He has zero credibility.
Seriously Jimmy. I have. Shall I read it again.
It's not just post 060 I'm talking about, it's Richard's (and plenty of others) posts, over a number of years, that infer that Kenwright is making the best of a bad job, and we should ''be careful what we wish for'' (shudder).
The comparison between David Murray and Kenwright is valid. Both bullshitters who have run their clubs into the fuckin' ground.
It's not just post 060 I'm talking about, it's Richard's (and plenty of others) posts, over a number of years, that infer that Kenwright is making the best of a bad job, and we should ''be careful what we wish for'' (shudder).
The comparison between David Murray and Kenwright is valid. Both bullshitters who have run their clubs into the fuckin' ground.
Martin Mason(026)
On Bill you have just written: He is a proud man who has done well....
Frankly, sort your head out.
On Bill you have just written: He is a proud man who has done well....
Frankly, sort your head out.
Richard, I'm sure the other operating costs are not illegal... I certainly so anyway, I just think that Evertonians would have a heart attack if we knew what they are, maybe legal fees to do with Kirkby, who knows?
Richard, a third of our turnover and Kenwright doesn't know... come on, what's he hiding?
Richard, a third of our turnover and Kenwright doesn't know... come on, what's he hiding?
Yes Colin, you should.
Let me know when you've spotted your mistake.
I'm not disputing any criticism of Kenwright or your general point, but you are completely mis-reading Richard's post ? I've pointed it out and so has he.
Let me know when you've spotted your mistake.
I'm not disputing any criticism of Kenwright or your general point, but you are completely mis-reading Richard's post ? I've pointed it out and so has he.
Jimmy. No mistakes made here pal. Don't know whether you're new to the site and have never read Richard's back catalogue, but I have.
This is what my post was refering to.
This is what my post was refering to.
No it isn't Colin, you said quite clearly that he was missing the point about the previous chairman being to blame. Therefore you were obviously talking about that particular post. Having read it again I'm sure you noticed that Richard was also saying that the ex-chairman was at fault and there were worrying similarities with our own plight.
I have no axe to grind, I just thought you were being unfair and that a reasonable man may acknowledge that. You've chosen not to, fair enough.
I have no axe to grind, I just thought you were being unfair and that a reasonable man may acknowledge that. You've chosen not to, fair enough.
Matin 062, I have to plead ignorance to anything Everton related which is pre-1983, so cannot comment on the 70s, apologies. But I take your point. However, you only need to look at our financial statements under BK's stewardship to see that we have gone downhill in the last decade (regardless of what happened before). From a financial perspective, we're a mess ? and this with a constant gate of 30k+.
Re your comment about BK going more into his bunker due to the protests, I view this the other way round. The protests were brought on due to the awful communication from top management and perceived running of the club, thereby leaving fans with no other choice but to protest. We don't even have AGMs because BK is too 'bored' to answer questions! Him choosing a bunker mentality for me just shows he's out of his depth and does not have the answers to the many questions being asked. The job of any board is not to hide when there's heat! Also the leaked email from last August just highlights what a basket case we are at the moment.
Personally, I would rather take my chance with someone new than continue with someone proven, IMO, to be unsuitable.
@Richard Dodd ? I don't really understand what you are trying to say in your post to me. Simple fact is that financially we have gone downhill under BK's stewardship so no, I would not trust him with proceeds of future players' sales. I would rather the money was given to a competent board that actually had/has a viable plan for the next 3-5 years which does not involve just hoping for continued Sky money and that Moyes's 'defend first and nick one' tactics will keep us up.
Not really sure what Finch Farm has to do with this either ? although you may want to look at the great deal the BK gave to EFC there!
Re your comment about BK going more into his bunker due to the protests, I view this the other way round. The protests were brought on due to the awful communication from top management and perceived running of the club, thereby leaving fans with no other choice but to protest. We don't even have AGMs because BK is too 'bored' to answer questions! Him choosing a bunker mentality for me just shows he's out of his depth and does not have the answers to the many questions being asked. The job of any board is not to hide when there's heat! Also the leaked email from last August just highlights what a basket case we are at the moment.
Personally, I would rather take my chance with someone new than continue with someone proven, IMO, to be unsuitable.
@Richard Dodd ? I don't really understand what you are trying to say in your post to me. Simple fact is that financially we have gone downhill under BK's stewardship so no, I would not trust him with proceeds of future players' sales. I would rather the money was given to a competent board that actually had/has a viable plan for the next 3-5 years which does not involve just hoping for continued Sky money and that Moyes's 'defend first and nick one' tactics will keep us up.
Not really sure what Finch Farm has to do with this either ? although you may want to look at the great deal the BK gave to EFC there!
Richard, if you are a member (shareholder), write to the chief executive via recorded letter (not e-mail) and request a breakdown of the figures.
A friend of mine did so and tells me he got an immediate but `strictly confidential` reply. He would reveal nothing of its contents. Try it!
A friend of mine did so and tells me he got an immediate but `strictly confidential` reply. He would reveal nothing of its contents. Try it!
'Kin ell Jimmy. Can you read?
I said, in post 070:
''What some people also conveniently forget, is that although Craig Whyte is obviously a scamming bastard and should never have been allowed to take over at Rangers, what he bought for a quid was an ailing club, brought to the brink by the previous, unfit, useless chairman."
Some people, Richard included, do believe this. Now I know this is a bit of a leap for you, with your obsession over post 051, but Richard has consistently, over the years, backed the current chairman. Simply pointing out that this faith that, until a recent ''road to Damascus'' moment, he had in Kenwright, was, and is with other posters on this thread, misguided.
BTW, I am a reasonable man and I don't take the piss, which is what you accused me of. Don't know whether this answers your doubts, but tbh man, I've told you the reasons behind my post; if you choose not to believe them, so be it.
I said, in post 070:
''What some people also conveniently forget, is that although Craig Whyte is obviously a scamming bastard and should never have been allowed to take over at Rangers, what he bought for a quid was an ailing club, brought to the brink by the previous, unfit, useless chairman."
Some people, Richard included, do believe this. Now I know this is a bit of a leap for you, with your obsession over post 051, but Richard has consistently, over the years, backed the current chairman. Simply pointing out that this faith that, until a recent ''road to Damascus'' moment, he had in Kenwright, was, and is with other posters on this thread, misguided.
BTW, I am a reasonable man and I don't take the piss, which is what you accused me of. Don't know whether this answers your doubts, but tbh man, I've told you the reasons behind my post; if you choose not to believe them, so be it.
Also, ''No it isn't Colin, you said quite clearly that he was missing the point about the previous chairman being to blame.''
No I never.
No I never.
Colin, I do agree that Everton could now be likened more to David Murray`s Rangers than Craig Whyte`s. The lesson to learn, though, is that the `new` owner was no more able to deal with the mess they were in than was the `old` one.
Thus, my point, made frequently, that our need is for a BETTER chair and board not just a DIFFERENT one.
Those who say anyone could be an improvement obviously haven`t read up on CW!
Thus, my point, made frequently, that our need is for a BETTER chair and board not just a DIFFERENT one.
Those who say anyone could be an improvement obviously haven`t read up on CW!
Totally agree Richard. My point is that the self-proclaimed ''best salesman Everton could wish for'', is not up to the job, in the same way Murray was not up to the job.
Martin, #048
Amazing how when people can?t formulate an argument, because they know they?re wrong, they tell you that they can form their own opinions! Its code for, ?I know I have no argument against what you?ve said but I?m entitled to my opinion.? What?s all this bollocks about opinions; some people have the opinion that it?s okay for Gary Glitter to assault kids but it doesn?t mean they have the right to that opinion.
If you spent days in court well why didn?t you understand what the QC was doing?
Bill Kenwright is a director and chairman of EFC, he?s responsible for what the shareholders and the fans are told. Here?s what the fans were told by a fellow director:
http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/kirkby-q-and-a-with-wyness.html
Pay particular attention to his response to, "What was meant by the deal of the century headlines." I've already posted this comment in my previous response; other directors and employees repeated this mantra.
Here?s what the counsel for those opposed to the application said in his opening remarks to the planning inspectors:
?The role of the stadium in these application proposals seems to be confused. Initially the planning statement repeated again and yet again that the proposed quantum of retail development was required in order to perform an enabling function by meeting a £52M gap in funding for the stadium. Knowsley were left in no doubt that the faced a ?once in a lifetime? opportunity however the applicant and the local authority now seem very coy about providing any information which would explain the financial relationship between the quantum of development proposed and the cross-subsidy which, we are told, is required by the club. Mr Sauvain concluded by questioning the apparent shift in position over the applicant's explanation concerning the meaning of enabling when during the planning process they explained that on over fifty occasions the level of retail is needed to deliver the cross subsidy of £52M.?
Now here?s the report on which the Secretary of State made the decision on the inquiry into Destination Kirkby:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23184426/09-11-25-IR-Everton-FC-and-Tesco-1203375
It?s 367 pages long so I doubt you?ll read it, I doubt you?ll understand it even if you have spent a few days in court listening to a QC, I doubt very much you know what time of day it is tbh. To help you out I?ll tell you that you won?t find mention of a £52m enabling subsidy anywhere in the document. You have been shown what Tony Fletcher said in July 2007, and you can see above what counsel said of the alleged £52m on November 19th 2008. Here?s what is included in the planning inspectors report to the Secretary of State:
8.3.18 The Council is funding the Stadium through the uplift in the value of its land which is being passed on to Tesco. However, there is no information as to how much land the Council would need to give away to create a viable development to support a Stadium and, therefore, whether a development of a more appropriate scale, and incorporating more of the town centre, could not have been achieved. These are the questions which have been left unresolved by the decision by Tesco and KMBC to keep the financial matters secret.
8.2.23 However, the argument that there is an urgent need for a new stadium or that the planning system ought to roll over to facilitate an increase in the value of the club for the benefit of its present owners or even for the excitement of its fans is not accepted.
8.3.24 The club is and has been consistently successful on the football field. There is no proven connection between the provision of a new stadium and the future success of a football club. No doubt the value of the club to its owners will increase if a new stadium can be provided at a subsidised cost but this is not a matter which the planning system can properly take into account.
Look very closely at the words in para?s 8.3.18, 8.2.23 and 8.3.24.
THE COUNCIL IS FUNDING THE STADIUM THROUGH THE UPLIFT IN THE VALUE OF ITS LAND
FACILITATE AN INCREASE IN THE VALUE OF THE CLUB FOR THE BENEFIT OF ITS PRESENT OWNERS
NO DOUBT THE VALUE OF THE CLUB TO ITS OWNERS WILL INCREASE IF A NEW STADIUM CAN BE PROVIDED AT A SUBSIDISED COST
You ask for evidence; these are government documents, this is what was said at a government inquiry. The link to Wyness shows the board for what they are.
The fact you don?t agree is irrelevant; all you have is ludicrously mis-informed opinions which I welcome you posting as it not only gives me to post the EVIDENCE that the board placed their own self-interest before the club but encourages others not to side with lunatics such as yourself who have no knowledge of what has happened over the years and see nothing wrong in posting absolute rubbish.
I appreciate that you?re probably offended by what I have said but quite honestly I don?t give a fuck! Have a nice weekend; it must be an open prison if you have access to computers! lol
Amazing how when people can?t formulate an argument, because they know they?re wrong, they tell you that they can form their own opinions! Its code for, ?I know I have no argument against what you?ve said but I?m entitled to my opinion.? What?s all this bollocks about opinions; some people have the opinion that it?s okay for Gary Glitter to assault kids but it doesn?t mean they have the right to that opinion.
If you spent days in court well why didn?t you understand what the QC was doing?
Bill Kenwright is a director and chairman of EFC, he?s responsible for what the shareholders and the fans are told. Here?s what the fans were told by a fellow director:
http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/kirkby-q-and-a-with-wyness.html
Pay particular attention to his response to, "What was meant by the deal of the century headlines." I've already posted this comment in my previous response; other directors and employees repeated this mantra.
Here?s what the counsel for those opposed to the application said in his opening remarks to the planning inspectors:
?The role of the stadium in these application proposals seems to be confused. Initially the planning statement repeated again and yet again that the proposed quantum of retail development was required in order to perform an enabling function by meeting a £52M gap in funding for the stadium. Knowsley were left in no doubt that the faced a ?once in a lifetime? opportunity however the applicant and the local authority now seem very coy about providing any information which would explain the financial relationship between the quantum of development proposed and the cross-subsidy which, we are told, is required by the club. Mr Sauvain concluded by questioning the apparent shift in position over the applicant's explanation concerning the meaning of enabling when during the planning process they explained that on over fifty occasions the level of retail is needed to deliver the cross subsidy of £52M.?
Now here?s the report on which the Secretary of State made the decision on the inquiry into Destination Kirkby:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/23184426/09-11-25-IR-Everton-FC-and-Tesco-1203375
It?s 367 pages long so I doubt you?ll read it, I doubt you?ll understand it even if you have spent a few days in court listening to a QC, I doubt very much you know what time of day it is tbh. To help you out I?ll tell you that you won?t find mention of a £52m enabling subsidy anywhere in the document. You have been shown what Tony Fletcher said in July 2007, and you can see above what counsel said of the alleged £52m on November 19th 2008. Here?s what is included in the planning inspectors report to the Secretary of State:
8.3.18 The Council is funding the Stadium through the uplift in the value of its land which is being passed on to Tesco. However, there is no information as to how much land the Council would need to give away to create a viable development to support a Stadium and, therefore, whether a development of a more appropriate scale, and incorporating more of the town centre, could not have been achieved. These are the questions which have been left unresolved by the decision by Tesco and KMBC to keep the financial matters secret.
8.2.23 However, the argument that there is an urgent need for a new stadium or that the planning system ought to roll over to facilitate an increase in the value of the club for the benefit of its present owners or even for the excitement of its fans is not accepted.
8.3.24 The club is and has been consistently successful on the football field. There is no proven connection between the provision of a new stadium and the future success of a football club. No doubt the value of the club to its owners will increase if a new stadium can be provided at a subsidised cost but this is not a matter which the planning system can properly take into account.
Look very closely at the words in para?s 8.3.18, 8.2.23 and 8.3.24.
THE COUNCIL IS FUNDING THE STADIUM THROUGH THE UPLIFT IN THE VALUE OF ITS LAND
FACILITATE AN INCREASE IN THE VALUE OF THE CLUB FOR THE BENEFIT OF ITS PRESENT OWNERS
NO DOUBT THE VALUE OF THE CLUB TO ITS OWNERS WILL INCREASE IF A NEW STADIUM CAN BE PROVIDED AT A SUBSIDISED COST
You ask for evidence; these are government documents, this is what was said at a government inquiry. The link to Wyness shows the board for what they are.
The fact you don?t agree is irrelevant; all you have is ludicrously mis-informed opinions which I welcome you posting as it not only gives me to post the EVIDENCE that the board placed their own self-interest before the club but encourages others not to side with lunatics such as yourself who have no knowledge of what has happened over the years and see nothing wrong in posting absolute rubbish.
I appreciate that you?re probably offended by what I have said but quite honestly I don?t give a fuck! Have a nice weekend; it must be an open prison if you have access to computers! lol
Richard #091
Don't talk absolute rubbish, you're lying. That information is not available whatsoever and it doesn't matter if a shareholder requests it; it will not be released through such a request.
You have to be far more devious. ;-)
Don't talk absolute rubbish, you're lying. That information is not available whatsoever and it doesn't matter if a shareholder requests it; it will not be released through such a request.
You have to be far more devious. ;-)
I don't think I'll take your word for it, Richard!!
Then what is the Shareholders Association doing about the situation?No company is answerable to their customers (apart from it`s products being fit for the purpose they were sold) but it is accounable to its shareholders!
I am not a liar and you have no cause to describe me as such, sir! Please desist.
Why not get ALL your militant supporters who qualify to make such a request and see what happens? Much more creative than howling in the wind on here!
I am not a liar and you have no cause to describe me as such, sir! Please desist.
Why not get ALL your militant supporters who qualify to make such a request and see what happens? Much more creative than howling in the wind on here!
Doddy,
I have cause because that is a blatant lie. Everton will not reveal it's other operating costs and if you believe otherwise you're a bigger fool than the majority of people have you down for.
The Shareholders Association are little more than a social club, they have been for years; lovely people, I know many of them, but Kirkby was the end of their boast of being the watchdogs of the club, they did nothing, they sat their and did nothing whilst KEIOC organised and funded the EGM. I'll change my opinion when they call an EGM, it's the only useful thing they can do now; call an EGM into the performances of ALL the directors, not just Bill, he actually does something, as poor as it is, whilst the rest are passengers. We have a board of directors that are as useful as a pocket in a pair of underpants.
Sorry, I know of no militant supporters, your using the language of the failures running the club and their sycophants, you'll be using anarchists next. I do however know a shareholder who has persistently asked for minutes of the boardroom meetings in recent years and has been refused, and you expect me to believe someone has had the other operating costs divulged to them? Behave yourself.
You and a few others enjoy posting shite and then act all upset [faux] when you get put straight.
Some of the shite you come out with is straight out of Goodison. You're going on about a better chair rather than a different chair; who's asking for Bill to be simply replaced by anyone? You might as well say the current mantra, be careful what you wish for. The proposal to bring in professionals to conduct the sale process in place of the failures running the club, that haven't achieved this in twelve years of trying, has a much better chance of finding the right owner for the club then the right owner for the current owners; look no further than bedsit man who Bill was pestering to come over to sign the sales agreement. I rest my case.
I don't howl, unlike you, I post facts which cannot be disputed. The deranged can ignore them and tell you how Bill has put everything into the club that he owns but we both know this to be untrue, he has never put a penny, and all they're doing is flagging themselves as fuckwits.
I'm not interested what happens at Rangers, Blackburn, Portsmouth or anywhere else tbh; I'm interested what's happening at Everton and too many Liverpudlians ;-) are trying to hide the truth and when the shit hits the fan they'll be off to their next fiasco.
I have cause because that is a blatant lie. Everton will not reveal it's other operating costs and if you believe otherwise you're a bigger fool than the majority of people have you down for.
The Shareholders Association are little more than a social club, they have been for years; lovely people, I know many of them, but Kirkby was the end of their boast of being the watchdogs of the club, they did nothing, they sat their and did nothing whilst KEIOC organised and funded the EGM. I'll change my opinion when they call an EGM, it's the only useful thing they can do now; call an EGM into the performances of ALL the directors, not just Bill, he actually does something, as poor as it is, whilst the rest are passengers. We have a board of directors that are as useful as a pocket in a pair of underpants.
Sorry, I know of no militant supporters, your using the language of the failures running the club and their sycophants, you'll be using anarchists next. I do however know a shareholder who has persistently asked for minutes of the boardroom meetings in recent years and has been refused, and you expect me to believe someone has had the other operating costs divulged to them? Behave yourself.
You and a few others enjoy posting shite and then act all upset [faux] when you get put straight.
Some of the shite you come out with is straight out of Goodison. You're going on about a better chair rather than a different chair; who's asking for Bill to be simply replaced by anyone? You might as well say the current mantra, be careful what you wish for. The proposal to bring in professionals to conduct the sale process in place of the failures running the club, that haven't achieved this in twelve years of trying, has a much better chance of finding the right owner for the club then the right owner for the current owners; look no further than bedsit man who Bill was pestering to come over to sign the sales agreement. I rest my case.
I don't howl, unlike you, I post facts which cannot be disputed. The deranged can ignore them and tell you how Bill has put everything into the club that he owns but we both know this to be untrue, he has never put a penny, and all they're doing is flagging themselves as fuckwits.
I'm not interested what happens at Rangers, Blackburn, Portsmouth or anywhere else tbh; I'm interested what's happening at Everton and too many Liverpudlians ;-) are trying to hide the truth and when the shit hits the fan they'll be off to their next fiasco.
apologies for grammar and spelling, in a rush!
How can you dub me a liar because I made a suggestion?I did not state a mistruth that can be disputed.My friend wrote and got a reply.He did not divulge what it said but seemed satisfied.
I`m hardly surprised that your lot are not made party to Board minutes-what company in England divulges such information? Annual accounts are an entirely different animal.
It may surpise you to learn that I agree `they`must have something to hide if this information is so sensitive.Personally,I am amazed that so much of the expenditure is lumped under one heading although I don`t think the total expenditure is unrealistic.
All of which makes me a liar,eh?
I`m hardly surprised that your lot are not made party to Board minutes-what company in England divulges such information? Annual accounts are an entirely different animal.
It may surpise you to learn that I agree `they`must have something to hide if this information is so sensitive.Personally,I am amazed that so much of the expenditure is lumped under one heading although I don`t think the total expenditure is unrealistic.
All of which makes me a liar,eh?
Martin Mason
This from your last post:
"What I'm saying is that he is at worse guilty of bad decision-making."
If you had just said this from the beginning and left out the bullshit you wouldn't have got your arse kicked.
This from your last post:
"What I'm saying is that he is at worse guilty of bad decision-making."
If you had just said this from the beginning and left out the bullshit you wouldn't have got your arse kicked.
Doddy,
Your implication is obvious with a statement such as this,
"A friend of mine did so and tells me he got an immediate but `strictly confidential` reply."
He never obtained anything other than a polite 'fuck off' ? nothing strictly confidential about that.
Also I'm amazed that you have a friend!!!!
Your implication is obvious with a statement such as this,
"A friend of mine did so and tells me he got an immediate but `strictly confidential` reply."
He never obtained anything other than a polite 'fuck off' ? nothing strictly confidential about that.
Also I'm amazed that you have a friend!!!!
Also Doddy, "Your lot" dear me, your slip is well and truly showing. I don't think that it's realistic to essentially double your other operating costs within a twelve month period and the explanations are getting more and more confused. One minute they're saying the Bellefield money was used to pay down the overdraft then they're saying it never went to the bank.....maybe it went to the taxman ;-)
Jimmy, that's funny. You can't read yourself if you can't see that Doddy's point is laughable given his Black Bill has done just the same as old tin legs did at Rangers before selling it off to Whyte. Don't forget Black Bill almost sold Everton to some scrote in a bedsit. I wouldn't trust him with the half-time oranges never mind running a business which is the exact point of the article and many of the responses.
Whoa there Silver, don't gallop off yet, my white charger, there might be another response I need to give from my high horse.
Whoa there Silver, don't gallop off yet, my white charger, there might be another response I need to give from my high horse.
Jesus wept.
READ RICHARD DODD'S POST AGAIN!
I'll post the important bit here for you to make it easier.
Like Everton,`Gers had flogged everything off ? season tickets, catering, retail ? and had nowhere to go when Craig Whyte offered his coin, which he probably borrowed off `Our Walter`!
You see now?
The point you're accusing him of not understanding is actually the exact point he's making.
READ RICHARD DODD'S POST AGAIN!
I'll post the important bit here for you to make it easier.
Like Everton,`Gers had flogged everything off ? season tickets, catering, retail ? and had nowhere to go when Craig Whyte offered his coin, which he probably borrowed off `Our Walter`!
You see now?
The point you're accusing him of not understanding is actually the exact point he's making.
Murray won the league 15 times whilst at Rangers..
Kenwright has won fuck all at Everton.
Where is the comparisons then???
Murray lost his dosh in the recession.
Kenwright can't lose his Everton dosh.. cos he borrowed it in the first place.
Kenwright has won fuck all at Everton.
Where is the comparisons then???
Murray lost his dosh in the recession.
Kenwright can't lose his Everton dosh.. cos he borrowed it in the first place.
Try to stay with me here, Colin.
I'm going to post two quotes from you below and maybe then you'll see that you're talking complete nonsense, ok?
Also, ''No it isn't Colin, you said quite clearly that he was missing the point about the previous chairman being to blame.''
No I never.
in Richard's rush to use Whyte as the poster boy for the ''be careful what you wish for'' crowd, he forgets that the previous chairman of the club is just as much to blame.
So I guess you can read but your memory is not so good?
I'm going to post two quotes from you below and maybe then you'll see that you're talking complete nonsense, ok?
Also, ''No it isn't Colin, you said quite clearly that he was missing the point about the previous chairman being to blame.''
No I never.
in Richard's rush to use Whyte as the poster boy for the ''be careful what you wish for'' crowd, he forgets that the previous chairman of the club is just as much to blame.
So I guess you can read but your memory is not so good?
Barry 118
there's a difference between making bad decisions, which I bet even you do at times, and malfeasance. I still have two challenges for you, why don't you try answering them.
You really shouldn't post after drinking neither. I assume you were pissed when you scribbled down that garbage?
there's a difference between making bad decisions, which I bet even you do at times, and malfeasance. I still have two challenges for you, why don't you try answering them.
You really shouldn't post after drinking neither. I assume you were pissed when you scribbled down that garbage?
Colin
The detailed accounts can be viewed by those who have a right to see them and you don't. Everybody else can see a summary and fantasise about what it actually means.
The detailed accounts can be viewed by those who have a right to see them and you don't. Everybody else can see a summary and fantasise about what it actually means.
Colin 102,
I said evidence of malfeasance and you give me reams of waffle on anything but that. It's called dissembling.
Evidence of malfeasance please.
You have a very foul mouth and strong opinions that you confuse badly with fact but you have no answers. Blind criticism is easy, solutions require intelligence.
I said evidence of malfeasance and you give me reams of waffle on anything but that. It's called dissembling.
Evidence of malfeasance please.
You have a very foul mouth and strong opinions that you confuse badly with fact but you have no answers. Blind criticism is easy, solutions require intelligence.
Colin@065
Regarding your "facts"
-The earth is not spherical, it's ellipsoidal
-Kopites are gobshites is a generalised opinion not fact.
-BK has not constantantly lied, he has lied on occasions.
That is the problem on here, many people have opinions which have little basis but worse they confuse these opinions with fact.
Phil@069
EFC is a small club financially (there is no other yardstick) and is a Company. Its fans who dont own shares are customers.
Bobby.T@084
Kenwright runs a successful West end Production Company and is the Director of a successful EPL Club. are you seriously suggesting that this isn't doing well in life? And I need to sort my head out. Dear me
Regarding your "facts"
-The earth is not spherical, it's ellipsoidal
-Kopites are gobshites is a generalised opinion not fact.
-BK has not constantantly lied, he has lied on occasions.
That is the problem on here, many people have opinions which have little basis but worse they confuse these opinions with fact.
Phil@069
EFC is a small club financially (there is no other yardstick) and is a Company. Its fans who dont own shares are customers.
Bobby.T@084
Kenwright runs a successful West end Production Company and is the Director of a successful EPL Club. are you seriously suggesting that this isn't doing well in life? And I need to sort my head out. Dear me
Martin. Just happen to notice that you didn't reply to Colin's 102.
I'm just amazed you keep saying that everything that has been highlighted to you ? particularly regarding DK ? was an "opinion"... Absolutely amazed.
You obviously weren't in the UK at the time of the inquiry. Even pro-DK supporters were embarrassed when the lies came out at the time.
Surely the fact that the Chairman of Everton Football Club lied ? even once ? to supporters for his own ends is enough such that he should never be believed again.
I'm just amazed you keep saying that everything that has been highlighted to you ? particularly regarding DK ? was an "opinion"... Absolutely amazed.
You obviously weren't in the UK at the time of the inquiry. Even pro-DK supporters were embarrassed when the lies came out at the time.
Surely the fact that the Chairman of Everton Football Club lied ? even once ? to supporters for his own ends is enough such that he should never be believed again.
You've forgoten the Samuelson and Kings Dock lies, Martin.
Oh, and "Watch this space".
Oh, and "Watch this space".
Oh yeah and remeber the old safety certificate one, that was a good one.
John,
I read Colin's post and the report and I did respond to it. Not in detail because I won't get into internet pissing contests and dialogues of the deaf with people with entrenched positions and who are agenda driven. I'll respond in detail when I see what I asked for which was evidence of malfeasance, whether that be of a criminal nature or whether it be the current board syphoning money to the detriment of the club. There's a massive difference to incompetence and criminal negligence, the world is full of incompetent people and footbal clubs have more than their fair share who run them.
I've never said that Bill Kenwright had done brilliantly for Everton or that he was the best option for the future of the club or that he'd handled DK well because none of those is true. My point is he is the ONLY option at the moment and simply getting him and or Moyes out is no guarantee that the club will improve as a result. There are a lot worse than BK out there running clubs, believe me, and the downside risk is, for me, far higher than the upside.
I would love to see the club sold to people who can run it better than the current board and who have enough money for ground, players and for systems that will increase our turnover for a sustainable future but I also believe that there is close to zero chance of this happening.
I read Colin's post and the report and I did respond to it. Not in detail because I won't get into internet pissing contests and dialogues of the deaf with people with entrenched positions and who are agenda driven. I'll respond in detail when I see what I asked for which was evidence of malfeasance, whether that be of a criminal nature or whether it be the current board syphoning money to the detriment of the club. There's a massive difference to incompetence and criminal negligence, the world is full of incompetent people and footbal clubs have more than their fair share who run them.
I've never said that Bill Kenwright had done brilliantly for Everton or that he was the best option for the future of the club or that he'd handled DK well because none of those is true. My point is he is the ONLY option at the moment and simply getting him and or Moyes out is no guarantee that the club will improve as a result. There are a lot worse than BK out there running clubs, believe me, and the downside risk is, for me, far higher than the upside.
I would love to see the club sold to people who can run it better than the current board and who have enough money for ground, players and for systems that will increase our turnover for a sustainable future but I also believe that there is close to zero chance of this happening.
Not if the club was sold for the right price Martin!!
Martin,
Colin has repeatedly replied comprehensively to your vague assertions and requests with multiple references and quotes straight from the people involved. You never respond directly to anything put to you.
You yourself admit that the club has been mismanaged, you accept that it no longer can compete financially, yet you don't attribute any blame for that situation to the current custodians who have been in charge for over a decade, and have made the decisions that have led to the predicament? Before you even contend any issues with Colin or ANYONE, how can this possibly be a valid stance? It's a contradiction?
The mistakes, and the lies used to cover them up are ALL well documented facts. Failure after failure after failure, all well documented facts. All undeniable! All presided over by BK and his board.
Look at what many other clubs have achieved over the past 10-20yrs. Many of them much lesser clubs than ours to start with. See how many can readily outspend us, how many have far more modern and substantial facilities..... and then YOU come back and tell us why we should all adopt your non-stance!
Colin has repeatedly replied comprehensively to your vague assertions and requests with multiple references and quotes straight from the people involved. You never respond directly to anything put to you.
You yourself admit that the club has been mismanaged, you accept that it no longer can compete financially, yet you don't attribute any blame for that situation to the current custodians who have been in charge for over a decade, and have made the decisions that have led to the predicament? Before you even contend any issues with Colin or ANYONE, how can this possibly be a valid stance? It's a contradiction?
The mistakes, and the lies used to cover them up are ALL well documented facts. Failure after failure after failure, all well documented facts. All undeniable! All presided over by BK and his board.
Look at what many other clubs have achieved over the past 10-20yrs. Many of them much lesser clubs than ours to start with. See how many can readily outspend us, how many have far more modern and substantial facilities..... and then YOU come back and tell us why we should all adopt your non-stance!
Colin has posted his opinion and interpretation of things that were said and done and I don't share his opinion. Colin also has a particularly foul mouth and I don't particularly care to discuss anything with him until he learns how to do it in a civil manner
I have never said that the current board are not to blame for the situation we are in, of course they are.
Regarding your last paragraphyou need to tell me the clubs that have done better than us in the last 10-20 years who are "lesser" than us and who have readily outspent us and who have far more modern and substantial facilities. It isn't for me to list them for you. It is irrelevant to the point I'm making. It would be relevant only if I was saying that the current board have done well or that they are our best hope for the future. I have never said that.
I have never said that the current board are not to blame for the situation we are in, of course they are.
Regarding your last paragraphyou need to tell me the clubs that have done better than us in the last 10-20 years who are "lesser" than us and who have readily outspent us and who have far more modern and substantial facilities. It isn't for me to list them for you. It is irrelevant to the point I'm making. It would be relevant only if I was saying that the current board have done well or that they are our best hope for the future. I have never said that.
Martin, you have an inabillity to face the facts when they're staring you in the face, you are a fool... FACT.
Fantastic, you've really lost it now.
Just out of interest, what are the facts and which of my points do they relate to? You need to be specific.
Not wishing to split hairs but the contention that I'm a fool is an opinion, not a fact
Just out of interest, what are the facts and which of my points do they relate to? You need to be specific.
Not wishing to split hairs but the contention that I'm a fool is an opinion, not a fact
Martin, the Earth is better described as an oblate spheroid than elliptical, that's a sphere with a compressed top and bottom.
I'm struggling to find where Colin hasn't responded to you with facts, especially those documented under oath at the DK hearings, and the supporting quotes from the former Chief Executive of the club on none other than the club's own website... or are you disputing what was said under oath and by the club itself is conjecture, which is a paradox of your own view?
I'm struggling to find where Colin hasn't responded to you with facts, especially those documented under oath at the DK hearings, and the supporting quotes from the former Chief Executive of the club on none other than the club's own website... or are you disputing what was said under oath and by the club itself is conjecture, which is a paradox of your own view?
Is there a village idiot position that must be filled on TW?
There's always one attention seeker (Dodd, Tunstead, Hudson et al) contradicting themselves at every opportunity and generally acting like a fool,
Your 'malfeasance' diversion fools no-one, give it time.
BTW I'm tea total ? another little strop you got wrong.
Martin Mason, you're hired.
There's always one attention seeker (Dodd, Tunstead, Hudson et al) contradicting themselves at every opportunity and generally acting like a fool,
Your 'malfeasance' diversion fools no-one, give it time.
BTW I'm tea total ? another little strop you got wrong.
Martin Mason, you're hired.
Gavin
Colin responded with some statements and his interpretation presumably on the basis that this had somehow answered any of the points I'd raised. They didn't and to be honest I have no idea the point he was trying to raise. That BK fucked up over DK (or more correctly BK, the council and their massed army of advisors did)? Well of course they did but tbh I can't see any difficulty in understanding how EFC planned to finance building a new stadium from the sale of council land for a commercial development.
Colin's posts, whatever they did, didn't answer my request to show that BK has been involved in any kind of criminal activity or even that what he did wasn't in the best interest of the club. I'm not sure that he's done anything that he didn't believe was in the best interest of the club. Where I believe the heaps of bile directed at him is justified is the way that he has dealt with supporters but to not see why he has behaved as he has is to not understand the man. He believes that he has acted at all times in the club's interest and that any criticism is betrayal. That was why he stopped the AGMs and that is why that as criticism mounts from activist supporters groups he gets worse and worse ever further into his bunker. He is also guilty of lying or which is inexcusable. What I can't see though is real evidence of total incompetence, illegal activities or of him knowingly acting against the best interests of the club. Is he demonstrably worse than previous boards who have contributed greatly to the decline of the club? Is he doing any different to owners of other clubs. Most clubs without sugar daddies are in desperate trouble and two are in receivership.
I'm sure you'll agree with me that we are extremely unlikely to be sold, to get "investment" and that the board and manager are what we are saddled with. We are where we are and the constant vilification of board and manager doesn't help in any way and has little chance of budging BK anyway. There are a lot of people inside the game who believe that the EFC board and manager far from being the incompetent bunch of crooks that many make out to actually having done exceptionally well keeping EFC, a tragically declining soccer giant, in the respectable position they are now. That is possibly a false position because we've done it by bringing the club to its knees financially by spending money on players that it didn't have. It may be, as I personally believe, irrational to expect EFC to be doing better given our crumbling infrastructure and low revenue.
Colin responded with some statements and his interpretation presumably on the basis that this had somehow answered any of the points I'd raised. They didn't and to be honest I have no idea the point he was trying to raise. That BK fucked up over DK (or more correctly BK, the council and their massed army of advisors did)? Well of course they did but tbh I can't see any difficulty in understanding how EFC planned to finance building a new stadium from the sale of council land for a commercial development.
Colin's posts, whatever they did, didn't answer my request to show that BK has been involved in any kind of criminal activity or even that what he did wasn't in the best interest of the club. I'm not sure that he's done anything that he didn't believe was in the best interest of the club. Where I believe the heaps of bile directed at him is justified is the way that he has dealt with supporters but to not see why he has behaved as he has is to not understand the man. He believes that he has acted at all times in the club's interest and that any criticism is betrayal. That was why he stopped the AGMs and that is why that as criticism mounts from activist supporters groups he gets worse and worse ever further into his bunker. He is also guilty of lying or which is inexcusable. What I can't see though is real evidence of total incompetence, illegal activities or of him knowingly acting against the best interests of the club. Is he demonstrably worse than previous boards who have contributed greatly to the decline of the club? Is he doing any different to owners of other clubs. Most clubs without sugar daddies are in desperate trouble and two are in receivership.
I'm sure you'll agree with me that we are extremely unlikely to be sold, to get "investment" and that the board and manager are what we are saddled with. We are where we are and the constant vilification of board and manager doesn't help in any way and has little chance of budging BK anyway. There are a lot of people inside the game who believe that the EFC board and manager far from being the incompetent bunch of crooks that many make out to actually having done exceptionally well keeping EFC, a tragically declining soccer giant, in the respectable position they are now. That is possibly a false position because we've done it by bringing the club to its knees financially by spending money on players that it didn't have. It may be, as I personally believe, irrational to expect EFC to be doing better given our crumbling infrastructure and low revenue.
Barry, by saying you're tee-total (or did you mean you only drink tea :-)) you've taken away the only excuse that I could give you for posting such unadulterated drivel.
Can you answer a question for me and it's a serious one. Why do you come on to a discussion board when you patently don't have the capacity to discuss issues? Challenge me, show me where I'm wrong but please don't act like an infant.
Can you answer a question for me and it's a serious one. Why do you come on to a discussion board when you patently don't have the capacity to discuss issues? Challenge me, show me where I'm wrong but please don't act like an infant.
Martin the evidence of the property value of DK being solely to the benefit of the owners of the club and not its fans is a statement which alludes to self interest and not that of the club. The annual accounts for the last decade onwards show that BK hasn't invested a penny of his own money beyond purchasing shares, even Johnson spent his own money which combined with DK shows a clear and present carpet bagger in the shape of the chairman and his board of major shareholders or do you contest that was in the interest of the club and if so how?
By labelling the shareholders as some form of anarchic activists is disingenuous because the last meeting minutes show clear concern being voiced across the room and not just some fictional rabble rouser which the club liked to portray. In terms of incompetence it has already been pointed out that the current chairman and board have made poor decision one after another commercially which when put in context against their own peer group of other EPL teams becomes more magnified; retail and merchandising, catering, sponsorship, lack of non match day finance streams and initiatives. In terms of incompetence this is based upon the peer group of EPL members which is published by Deloitte every season,
I don't think anyone has levelled a criminal concern at BK beyond not acting in line with the companies act as a director which is what I believe Colin had done. The disclosure of any BVI activities is impossible to attain due to that particular island's own judicial laws on divulging company details.
By labelling the shareholders as some form of anarchic activists is disingenuous because the last meeting minutes show clear concern being voiced across the room and not just some fictional rabble rouser which the club liked to portray. In terms of incompetence it has already been pointed out that the current chairman and board have made poor decision one after another commercially which when put in context against their own peer group of other EPL teams becomes more magnified; retail and merchandising, catering, sponsorship, lack of non match day finance streams and initiatives. In terms of incompetence this is based upon the peer group of EPL members which is published by Deloitte every season,
I don't think anyone has levelled a criminal concern at BK beyond not acting in line with the companies act as a director which is what I believe Colin had done. The disclosure of any BVI activities is impossible to attain due to that particular island's own judicial laws on divulging company details.
Jimmy. For the last time.
I never accused, quite clearly or not, Richard Dodd of missing the point, in post 051, about the Rangers chairman being to blame. It was this post that particularly riled you, and you got on you're fuckin' enormous high horse, with a bagful of pitchforks, and accused me of taking the piss.
Now I have given you reasons why I took this particular line as regards Richard's opinion, which goes beyond what was written in that particular post. You choose not to believe this and continue banging you're literal head against the wall that is post 051.
Now Richard himself, doesn't seem half as bothered as you are, regarding my opinion (that was for Martin Mason). I realise that you have a particular axe to grind as regards the contents of one post, yet this is you're problem alone. I've told you far too many times already.
Think you're maybe a bit of a pisstaker yourself, tbh.
I never accused, quite clearly or not, Richard Dodd of missing the point, in post 051, about the Rangers chairman being to blame. It was this post that particularly riled you, and you got on you're fuckin' enormous high horse, with a bagful of pitchforks, and accused me of taking the piss.
Now I have given you reasons why I took this particular line as regards Richard's opinion, which goes beyond what was written in that particular post. You choose not to believe this and continue banging you're literal head against the wall that is post 051.
Now Richard himself, doesn't seem half as bothered as you are, regarding my opinion (that was for Martin Mason). I realise that you have a particular axe to grind as regards the contents of one post, yet this is you're problem alone. I've told you far too many times already.
Think you're maybe a bit of a pisstaker yourself, tbh.
Nah Martin. Kopites are gobshites, but i concede your well researched point regarding the shape of the earth.
Martin
Just whiling away time before 16:00 when I shall be watching a televisual delight - a 2 hour documentary on Etruscan pottery - and I wondered...
As a customer of Everton Football Club Company Limited ? albeit the Company are in a privileged position of having a consistent, loyal, customer base who will not take their custom elsewhere ? what is your opinion of the facts of the relocaton of the water voles and our success in, against all the Company's proclamations, Goodison Park retaining Safety Certification from the Sports Ground Safety Authority?
Just to move on a bit the debate on opinion versus fact...
Just whiling away time before 16:00 when I shall be watching a televisual delight - a 2 hour documentary on Etruscan pottery - and I wondered...
As a customer of Everton Football Club Company Limited ? albeit the Company are in a privileged position of having a consistent, loyal, customer base who will not take their custom elsewhere ? what is your opinion of the facts of the relocaton of the water voles and our success in, against all the Company's proclamations, Goodison Park retaining Safety Certification from the Sports Ground Safety Authority?
Just to move on a bit the debate on opinion versus fact...
Last word on this before I watch the shite get battered.
Stay with me Jimmy.
I said in post 070, ''What some people also conveniently forget, is that although Craig Whyte is obviously a scamming bastard and should never have been allowed to take over at Rangers, what he bought for a quid was an ailing club, brought to the brink by the previous, unfit, useless chairman.'' Where, in that statement is Richard Dodd mentioned?
Now I'll concede that Richard is one of many posters I have included in the ''some people'' group. Go and read the recent thread entitled ''Champions for sale: £1'' and see who I was referring too.
Now, go and fuckin' leave it out sunshine (see, I can do condescending too).
Stay with me Jimmy.
I said in post 070, ''What some people also conveniently forget, is that although Craig Whyte is obviously a scamming bastard and should never have been allowed to take over at Rangers, what he bought for a quid was an ailing club, brought to the brink by the previous, unfit, useless chairman.'' Where, in that statement is Richard Dodd mentioned?
Now I'll concede that Richard is one of many posters I have included in the ''some people'' group. Go and read the recent thread entitled ''Champions for sale: £1'' and see who I was referring too.
Now, go and fuckin' leave it out sunshine (see, I can do condescending too).
Martin Wilson
Discussion ....what discussion?
This is the nonsense you started with:
"The only show in town is the BK/DM axis and for me there is no point in undermining them ? only supporting them constructively."
Accept all the asset stripping, remortgaging, lies over Kirkby, secrecy etc etc and carry on. Be like the band on the Titanic and keep playing, if only they'd looked up and realised many of the lifeboats were half empty.
But none of this really matters to an attention seeking clown, does it, Martin?
You contradict yourself at every turn in your dreadful overlong narcissistic pieces, what little credibilty you had finally evaporated when you took issue with a QC over Kirkby, not that you had much aligning yourself with Benitez.
50 years support you say?
There's no discussion ? you are an idiot.
Discussion ....what discussion?
This is the nonsense you started with:
"The only show in town is the BK/DM axis and for me there is no point in undermining them ? only supporting them constructively."
Accept all the asset stripping, remortgaging, lies over Kirkby, secrecy etc etc and carry on. Be like the band on the Titanic and keep playing, if only they'd looked up and realised many of the lifeboats were half empty.
But none of this really matters to an attention seeking clown, does it, Martin?
You contradict yourself at every turn in your dreadful overlong narcissistic pieces, what little credibilty you had finally evaporated when you took issue with a QC over Kirkby, not that you had much aligning yourself with Benitez.
50 years support you say?
There's no discussion ? you are an idiot.
Barry, totally agree. Fear you're banging your head against a brick wall mate.
Some people, like conservatives, as a wise man once said, are stupid.
Some people, like conservatives, as a wise man once said, are stupid.
Gavin, I?d hope that DK was intended to be for the benefit of the club. Is it not true that if the club benefits then so do the fans. BK or the board not putting his own money into the club doesn?t constitute carpet bagging. Surely only an idiot would invest money without return.
I don?t label the shareholders as activists only groups like the BU and a group of posters on here who are single issue and totally negative where positivity would be of benefit. If I can be accused of delusion or being an apologist for offering some support at a time like this then activism is a fair description of people actively attempting to undermine a legally constituted company board.
There is not a shred of evidence that BK has not acted in line with the company act only an opinion there is not a shred of evidence that BK has not acted in what he saw as the club?s interest. Hence my challenge to quantify where he has broken the law regarding the company. That is all I asked and I disagree that charges of criminality have not been raised against BK.
I asked two challenges, one for evidence that BK had done anything illegal and one on now we have BK out for breaking the law, and what then? All I?ve seen in response is childish foul mouthed insults, a fascist like attempt to deny me the right of expressing an alternative opinion, a patent incomprehension of what I?ve said compared with what people think I?ve said and not one answer.
Again I?ll opine that we aren?t going to be sold, we aren?t going to get investment, BK is not going anywhere and ask what now?
Thank you for the rational response btw.
I don?t label the shareholders as activists only groups like the BU and a group of posters on here who are single issue and totally negative where positivity would be of benefit. If I can be accused of delusion or being an apologist for offering some support at a time like this then activism is a fair description of people actively attempting to undermine a legally constituted company board.
There is not a shred of evidence that BK has not acted in line with the company act only an opinion there is not a shred of evidence that BK has not acted in what he saw as the club?s interest. Hence my challenge to quantify where he has broken the law regarding the company. That is all I asked and I disagree that charges of criminality have not been raised against BK.
I asked two challenges, one for evidence that BK had done anything illegal and one on now we have BK out for breaking the law, and what then? All I?ve seen in response is childish foul mouthed insults, a fascist like attempt to deny me the right of expressing an alternative opinion, a patent incomprehension of what I?ve said compared with what people think I?ve said and not one answer.
Again I?ll opine that we aren?t going to be sold, we aren?t going to get investment, BK is not going anywhere and ask what now?
Thank you for the rational response btw.
Barry 221, if you are going to respond to me even in a Neanderthal fashion then at least take the trouble to get my name right, It's Mason and you have ther gall to call anybody a fool?
Evidence of asset-stripping please (do you know what it is?). I'm sure that most would see it as selling assets to buy other assets (players).
Evidence of asset-stripping please (do you know what it is?). I'm sure that most would see it as selling assets to buy other assets (players).
Martin, you obviously cannot argue against Colin's FACTS so you are using the 'he's calling me names so I'm not talking to him' defence. If anything Colin has stated is not fact then our board, which is so good at issuing threats of legal action against the fans, would be able to sue Colin for libel. But of course they cannot and will not as what Colin has stated is clearly fact.
So instead of addressing Colin's facts you choose to ignore what he is saying and obfuscate the discussion by intoducing 'malfeasance' and 'criminal' acusations which have never been raised except by you.
You also say "I'm sure you'll agree with me that we are extremely unlikely to be sold". Well, no, I don't agree with you unless you complete the sentence '...at the unrealistic price BK is asking'. Which is why a concerned group of fans have suggested that a professional third party be appointed to handle the sale in the best interests of the Club.
As for you pretending to not know which lesser teams have outspent and outperformed us in the last 10 to 20 years, just look above us in the table. United, Chelsea, Spurs, City were nobodies when the Premier League were formed whereas Everton (and Liverpool) had dominated the 80s.
So instead of addressing Colin's facts you choose to ignore what he is saying and obfuscate the discussion by intoducing 'malfeasance' and 'criminal' acusations which have never been raised except by you.
You also say "I'm sure you'll agree with me that we are extremely unlikely to be sold". Well, no, I don't agree with you unless you complete the sentence '...at the unrealistic price BK is asking'. Which is why a concerned group of fans have suggested that a professional third party be appointed to handle the sale in the best interests of the Club.
As for you pretending to not know which lesser teams have outspent and outperformed us in the last 10 to 20 years, just look above us in the table. United, Chelsea, Spurs, City were nobodies when the Premier League were formed whereas Everton (and Liverpool) had dominated the 80s.
Martin,
Even absolute minnows who have been in the lower leagues for decades can and have outspent us regularly. Nearly ALL other clubs have completely revamped their stadia..... have many times our number of exec boxes (there are even Conference League clubs with more boxes than us) and corporate seats. From a position of having one of the best stadiums in the country only a generation ago, we now have one of the most lacking in facilities and high value/quality capacity.
Many clubs have enjoyed the best average attendances in their recent (if not entire) histories during the past 10-15 years...... we are now at our lowest status (compared to our peers) in our history. We are nowhere near our highest ever average attendance.... and continue to fall down that particular ranking.
Nearly ALL other clubs (I don't need to list them, as this literally applies to nearly ALL other clubs) have maximised revenue streams by providing the facilities to meet their needs. To make them as financially successful as they can be. This lot gave us a tent (now gone), banners and blue gravel.... end of. You have heard all of this many times now, but you simply choose to ignore.
Destination Kirkby was a fundamentally flawed scheme in every respect, and your ignorance on this whole subject is glaring. The whole "process" by which this "solution" was arrived at was a laughable old pals act stemming from a simple conversation on a train according to BK. No planning process was followed at all! A solution was presented and every effort was made to make that fit our needs. At no point was this a stadium/club led scheme.
When the ridiculous number of flaws were highlighted before and during the inquiry, it was evident that the club hadn't done its homework at all. It hadn't investigated all the options, and it had no real understanding of the ramifications of what DK would've meant to the future of the club, and its fanbase. These multiple failings alone represent a massive dereliction of duty.
The lies that supported every stage of the process to hoodwink the fanbase represents something much worse. This whole episode was merely echoing a previous catastrophic failure: The Kings Dock debacle before that was by definition a complete dereliction of duty on an unprecedented scale. Yet you infer that they have done no wrong? How many mistakes does it take for you? Would it take relegation and/or administration?
As far as we shouldn't expect board members to spend their cash... my feelings are that if they can't contribute in terms of ideas or investment, or at least underwrite schemes to help develop the club, then they're simply not suitable candidates to run it. They are cardboard cut-outs who deliver nothing. Far from being simply-termed customers, the fanbase invests millions in this club.... the board have invested nothing.
Even absolute minnows who have been in the lower leagues for decades can and have outspent us regularly. Nearly ALL other clubs have completely revamped their stadia..... have many times our number of exec boxes (there are even Conference League clubs with more boxes than us) and corporate seats. From a position of having one of the best stadiums in the country only a generation ago, we now have one of the most lacking in facilities and high value/quality capacity.
Many clubs have enjoyed the best average attendances in their recent (if not entire) histories during the past 10-15 years...... we are now at our lowest status (compared to our peers) in our history. We are nowhere near our highest ever average attendance.... and continue to fall down that particular ranking.
Nearly ALL other clubs (I don't need to list them, as this literally applies to nearly ALL other clubs) have maximised revenue streams by providing the facilities to meet their needs. To make them as financially successful as they can be. This lot gave us a tent (now gone), banners and blue gravel.... end of. You have heard all of this many times now, but you simply choose to ignore.
Destination Kirkby was a fundamentally flawed scheme in every respect, and your ignorance on this whole subject is glaring. The whole "process" by which this "solution" was arrived at was a laughable old pals act stemming from a simple conversation on a train according to BK. No planning process was followed at all! A solution was presented and every effort was made to make that fit our needs. At no point was this a stadium/club led scheme.
When the ridiculous number of flaws were highlighted before and during the inquiry, it was evident that the club hadn't done its homework at all. It hadn't investigated all the options, and it had no real understanding of the ramifications of what DK would've meant to the future of the club, and its fanbase. These multiple failings alone represent a massive dereliction of duty.
The lies that supported every stage of the process to hoodwink the fanbase represents something much worse. This whole episode was merely echoing a previous catastrophic failure: The Kings Dock debacle before that was by definition a complete dereliction of duty on an unprecedented scale. Yet you infer that they have done no wrong? How many mistakes does it take for you? Would it take relegation and/or administration?
As far as we shouldn't expect board members to spend their cash... my feelings are that if they can't contribute in terms of ideas or investment, or at least underwrite schemes to help develop the club, then they're simply not suitable candidates to run it. They are cardboard cut-outs who deliver nothing. Far from being simply-termed customers, the fanbase invests millions in this club.... the board have invested nothing.
Martin,
Your belief in the current custodians is heartwarming. I think you might be right that no change is likely anytime soon. But you seem to be using that as the reason for supporting them rather than holding their feet to the fire.
You seem to admit (when pushed) that mistakes have been made. Yet these mistakes are not enough to concern you, despite the anger and betrayal felt by others, which you are quick to dismiss.
You reject suggestions that the actions and motives of the custodians over Destination Kirkby may be best explained by self-interest. And you maintain that Bill Kenwright has always acted in the best interests of the club.
If you believe that Kenwright is basically honest and is doing his best, then you are going to look at everything in a favourable light. You'll be more inclined to dismiss the episodes where we know he has acted against the fans and the shareholders.
You suggest that he and the current regime should be supported uncritically in their pursuit of an increasingly difficult task of running the club without substantial investment, yet all the financial reports indicates that he has overseen a horrendous decline in the fiscal health and status of the club on his watch.
The difficulty we have is that (a) we don't share your faith in BK, based on his history; and (b) if he is given the support you request, nothing will change: stagnation and decline will continue.
Martin, supporting the current regime is an act of faith. Maybe there are a lot of Evertonians whose support for the club makes it hard for them to be critical of the current business management. The BU have tried to tackle this contradiction with their Support The Team mantra.
At the end of the day, it's the future of Everton Football Club that concerns us as fans and shareholders. Having it remain in the hands of a man who is at best well-meaning, and at worst, a bumbling buffoon who has completely failed in his own self-proclaimed mission to find investment... surely that's not the best path forward.
Your belief in the current custodians is heartwarming. I think you might be right that no change is likely anytime soon. But you seem to be using that as the reason for supporting them rather than holding their feet to the fire.
You seem to admit (when pushed) that mistakes have been made. Yet these mistakes are not enough to concern you, despite the anger and betrayal felt by others, which you are quick to dismiss.
You reject suggestions that the actions and motives of the custodians over Destination Kirkby may be best explained by self-interest. And you maintain that Bill Kenwright has always acted in the best interests of the club.
If you believe that Kenwright is basically honest and is doing his best, then you are going to look at everything in a favourable light. You'll be more inclined to dismiss the episodes where we know he has acted against the fans and the shareholders.
You suggest that he and the current regime should be supported uncritically in their pursuit of an increasingly difficult task of running the club without substantial investment, yet all the financial reports indicates that he has overseen a horrendous decline in the fiscal health and status of the club on his watch.
The difficulty we have is that (a) we don't share your faith in BK, based on his history; and (b) if he is given the support you request, nothing will change: stagnation and decline will continue.
Martin, supporting the current regime is an act of faith. Maybe there are a lot of Evertonians whose support for the club makes it hard for them to be critical of the current business management. The BU have tried to tackle this contradiction with their Support The Team mantra.
At the end of the day, it's the future of Everton Football Club that concerns us as fans and shareholders. Having it remain in the hands of a man who is at best well-meaning, and at worst, a bumbling buffoon who has completely failed in his own self-proclaimed mission to find investment... surely that's not the best path forward.
Eric,
Let me reiterate, Colin didn?t present any facts as evidence of malfeasance; he presented what had been said at an enquiry and laws which apply to company directors. He then presented his opinion that BK and the board had broken the law or had somehow acted not in the best wishes of the shareholders . Opinion is not fact and Colin?s opinion doesn?t have to be mine. I?ll discuss any issue with Colin and at any time but not necessarily when speaks as he does. I didn?t ignore what he said I simply told him it was opinion and I won?t get into pissing contests over opinion. I asked for evidence not opinion and I still have none.
Of course my opinion on us not being sold is based on the price, I don?t have to say it but Everton?s board decides the price not activist fans. So absolutely, we won?t be sold is my opinion and absolutely because of the price. Of course BK has been accused of criminal malfeasance by people who blame him of breaking Company laws and siphoning money out of the club. All insinuation around "other operating costs" is an accusation of criminal activity with no evidence. I don?t believe he has unless there is evidence to show that he has; otherwise, it is opinion and conjecture.
Every team that you mention is absolutely superior to us in terms of resources and not lesser. History is irrelevant as it doesn?t buy players or pay wages and that?s the problem with many Everton fans, like lots of Conservative voters, they have their heads buried in the past and are blind to present realities. At the moment, we are not superior to many EPL teams, we are a small club financially and that is all that matters. It isn?t 1970 or 1987.
Let me reiterate, Colin didn?t present any facts as evidence of malfeasance; he presented what had been said at an enquiry and laws which apply to company directors. He then presented his opinion that BK and the board had broken the law or had somehow acted not in the best wishes of the shareholders . Opinion is not fact and Colin?s opinion doesn?t have to be mine. I?ll discuss any issue with Colin and at any time but not necessarily when speaks as he does. I didn?t ignore what he said I simply told him it was opinion and I won?t get into pissing contests over opinion. I asked for evidence not opinion and I still have none.
Of course my opinion on us not being sold is based on the price, I don?t have to say it but Everton?s board decides the price not activist fans. So absolutely, we won?t be sold is my opinion and absolutely because of the price. Of course BK has been accused of criminal malfeasance by people who blame him of breaking Company laws and siphoning money out of the club. All insinuation around "other operating costs" is an accusation of criminal activity with no evidence. I don?t believe he has unless there is evidence to show that he has; otherwise, it is opinion and conjecture.
Every team that you mention is absolutely superior to us in terms of resources and not lesser. History is irrelevant as it doesn?t buy players or pay wages and that?s the problem with many Everton fans, like lots of Conservative voters, they have their heads buried in the past and are blind to present realities. At the moment, we are not superior to many EPL teams, we are a small club financially and that is all that matters. It isn?t 1970 or 1987.
Tom
I?ll try to answer you as best I can but your post is long and you raise many points so please excuse me if my response is condensed. I?ll answer by paragraph.
Yes, they can and have but many have had money from councils or sugar daddy directors. We have none and we have no money hence we can?t outspend them. This is simple economics and as I say our history is irrelevant now. No club has a right to stay successful. We haven?t and it?s not the result of just BK, we have been run badly for 50 years.
Correct, we are a dying club, others are emerging clubs. We aren?t immune and it happens with businesses.
I don?t ignore it, I agree with it. Everton has decided over many years to buy players and pay them high wages before they sorted out infrastructure. They have been managed badly. It has no bearing on the points I?m raising, can?t you see that? I?m saying we are where we are, we are almost certainly stuck with BK and you need to start from that position. For "all " clubs I?d say "a few" clubs, most have been modeled the same as we did and virtually all are in trouble.
DK ended up being a disaster but the basic idea was good (and it was simple) and I?m not in ignorance of what happened. Remember, you fall into the trap of developing an opinion and believing it as fact.
I disagree, see the point above. There was no dereliction of duty. The concept of leveraging a new ground by allowing a commercial development on council land was sound. They just messed it up. Incompetence isn?t criminal negligence. If it was then let?s have the evidence and let?s get Bungalow Bill in court.
Ditto for KD, wasn?t it based on EFC finding £30 Million? How would that happen from a club without 30 pence? Of course there were lies but BK is very much into telling the fans what he believes will endear them to him. More fool us for believing him. KD was the ultimate best plan for Everton but it needed us to have some real money? Again I have never inferred that they have done no wrong, it?s absolutely staggering. I have said only that there is not a shred of evidence of criminal activity or of the board actively pursuing actions that were not in the best interests of the club.
The board invested to buy the club, they have no legal or moral obligation to do more and on what evidence do you have that they haven?t developed schemes to improve the club? The fanbase doesn?t invest millions into the club. Even as shareholders they are customers because they have no say in how it is run and obtain no income from what they pay. If you don?t like that then you must stop going. Of course you?d argue that because of the emotional attachments we're far more important than customers but that is our true relationship. EFC isn?t a sports club it?s a business. The shareholders want to make a lot of money from the club, that is absolutely their prerogative, they want to sell to the right people and that is brilliant so again, we?re here ? what now?
I?ll try to answer you as best I can but your post is long and you raise many points so please excuse me if my response is condensed. I?ll answer by paragraph.
Yes, they can and have but many have had money from councils or sugar daddy directors. We have none and we have no money hence we can?t outspend them. This is simple economics and as I say our history is irrelevant now. No club has a right to stay successful. We haven?t and it?s not the result of just BK, we have been run badly for 50 years.
Correct, we are a dying club, others are emerging clubs. We aren?t immune and it happens with businesses.
I don?t ignore it, I agree with it. Everton has decided over many years to buy players and pay them high wages before they sorted out infrastructure. They have been managed badly. It has no bearing on the points I?m raising, can?t you see that? I?m saying we are where we are, we are almost certainly stuck with BK and you need to start from that position. For "all " clubs I?d say "a few" clubs, most have been modeled the same as we did and virtually all are in trouble.
DK ended up being a disaster but the basic idea was good (and it was simple) and I?m not in ignorance of what happened. Remember, you fall into the trap of developing an opinion and believing it as fact.
I disagree, see the point above. There was no dereliction of duty. The concept of leveraging a new ground by allowing a commercial development on council land was sound. They just messed it up. Incompetence isn?t criminal negligence. If it was then let?s have the evidence and let?s get Bungalow Bill in court.
Ditto for KD, wasn?t it based on EFC finding £30 Million? How would that happen from a club without 30 pence? Of course there were lies but BK is very much into telling the fans what he believes will endear them to him. More fool us for believing him. KD was the ultimate best plan for Everton but it needed us to have some real money? Again I have never inferred that they have done no wrong, it?s absolutely staggering. I have said only that there is not a shred of evidence of criminal activity or of the board actively pursuing actions that were not in the best interests of the club.
The board invested to buy the club, they have no legal or moral obligation to do more and on what evidence do you have that they haven?t developed schemes to improve the club? The fanbase doesn?t invest millions into the club. Even as shareholders they are customers because they have no say in how it is run and obtain no income from what they pay. If you don?t like that then you must stop going. Of course you?d argue that because of the emotional attachments we're far more important than customers but that is our true relationship. EFC isn?t a sports club it?s a business. The shareholders want to make a lot of money from the club, that is absolutely their prerogative, they want to sell to the right people and that is brilliant so again, we?re here ? what now?
Martin, the facts Colin presented were to show that the board were not acting in the best interests of the Club. YOU were the person that introduced 'malfeasance' into the discussion.
Nobody has been insinuating that the 'other operating costs' are to cover illegal activity. Again that's another idea introduced by you to divert the topic of discussion.
What everyone is amazed at (except you apparently) is that the chairman of a board of directors does not know where 30% of the expenditure of his company goes, especially when it's making a loss!!
Tom's comment was "Look at what many other clubs have achieved over the past 10-20yrs. Many of them much lesser clubs than ours to START with." Pre-Premier League; United, Chelsea, Spurs and City certainly were lesser clubs than us.
But of course you already know that and are again ignoring what has been posted.
Nobody has been insinuating that the 'other operating costs' are to cover illegal activity. Again that's another idea introduced by you to divert the topic of discussion.
What everyone is amazed at (except you apparently) is that the chairman of a board of directors does not know where 30% of the expenditure of his company goes, especially when it's making a loss!!
Tom's comment was "Look at what many other clubs have achieved over the past 10-20yrs. Many of them much lesser clubs than ours to START with." Pre-Premier League; United, Chelsea, Spurs and City certainly were lesser clubs than us.
But of course you already know that and are again ignoring what has been posted.
"KD was the ultimate best plan for Everton but it needed us to have some real money?"
Which Gregg was willing to provide.
Which Gregg was willing to provide.
Paul
I have no belief in the current directors nor do I believe that they are the best option for taking us forward. They are likely to be the only option is what I say.
We have had a decline in our financial position under BK but during a parallel period where wages and fees have increased exponentially, instead of us sinking as we should have done EFC borrowed and sold assets to maintain squad strength and EFC is not the only club to have followed this model. It was unsustainable. It?s highly possible that our true position based on financial strength is in the championship. That we are not is almost certainly to the club?s excellence in developing young players which has to be our business model now. That is in the club?s best interest and they should be given credit for it not opprobrium.
No, the board must not be supported uncritically, they must be criticized where appropriate but criticism has to be constructive, our aims have to be reasonable and achievable. The BU are openly provocative and absolutely negative in their criticism and have not advanced our chances of improvement by anything. They?ve put Bill in his bunker which is not the best thing
The successful future of EFC is what we all want. BK is not a bumbling buffoon, he is a successful businessman who has the support of other successful businessmen on the board. He?s not found investment because to invest in EFC you would need to be very rich and certifiably insane and he hasn?t found a suitable lunatic, he has not sold the club because nobody will offer him the right price. It is very simple and needs neither conspiracy nor not acting in the interests of the club.
Many thanks
I have no belief in the current directors nor do I believe that they are the best option for taking us forward. They are likely to be the only option is what I say.
We have had a decline in our financial position under BK but during a parallel period where wages and fees have increased exponentially, instead of us sinking as we should have done EFC borrowed and sold assets to maintain squad strength and EFC is not the only club to have followed this model. It was unsustainable. It?s highly possible that our true position based on financial strength is in the championship. That we are not is almost certainly to the club?s excellence in developing young players which has to be our business model now. That is in the club?s best interest and they should be given credit for it not opprobrium.
No, the board must not be supported uncritically, they must be criticized where appropriate but criticism has to be constructive, our aims have to be reasonable and achievable. The BU are openly provocative and absolutely negative in their criticism and have not advanced our chances of improvement by anything. They?ve put Bill in his bunker which is not the best thing
The successful future of EFC is what we all want. BK is not a bumbling buffoon, he is a successful businessman who has the support of other successful businessmen on the board. He?s not found investment because to invest in EFC you would need to be very rich and certifiably insane and he hasn?t found a suitable lunatic, he has not sold the club because nobody will offer him the right price. It is very simple and needs neither conspiracy nor not acting in the interests of the club.
Many thanks
Sorry, my last post. I?ve just read the conclusions of the Inquiry report and it?s very good. Surprisingly the Report accepts the £52M subsidy is real but questions Everton?s ability to find the remaining £78M but then only if the full development didn?t go ahead. There is no suggestion of malpractice by any of the party.
That EFC and Kirkby Council didn?t do enough work to get the proposal through is obvious but it is a good example of democracy in action. EFC got a stadium that was heavily subsidized, Kirkby got regeneration of its town centre but the Inquiry showed that the development was not justified and that Everton didn?t need a new stadium to maintain their position.
The report states that EFC has been for sale for many years and that this went against the application as there could be a change of board any time. There is nothing in the conclusion that reflects a lot of the stuff written here about malfeasance of the DK deal.
That EFC and Kirkby Council didn?t do enough work to get the proposal through is obvious but it is a good example of democracy in action. EFC got a stadium that was heavily subsidized, Kirkby got regeneration of its town centre but the Inquiry showed that the development was not justified and that Everton didn?t need a new stadium to maintain their position.
The report states that EFC has been for sale for many years and that this went against the application as there could be a change of board any time. There is nothing in the conclusion that reflects a lot of the stuff written here about malfeasance of the DK deal.
Pssst!
Shhhh!
Has he gone?
Shhhh!
Has he gone?
Well done, Martin Mason. You have put up a spirited argument which has led to me gaining an understanding of an issue that has baffled me. I find Colin's argument more convincing but I see your point, I hope, that there is a fine line between wrong-doing and incompetence.
This has been a good and, mostly civilized debate that does ToffeeWeb proud.
This has been a good and, mostly civilized debate that does ToffeeWeb proud.
I'm as proud as anyone of Everton's history and I won't encourage a 'big club/small club' debate, but anybody who says Manchester United were a lesser club than Everton 20 years ago is stretching things to the extreme.
I've read through this and I suspect I'm probably where a lot of Evertonians are which is somewhere between Colin and Martin. I would like to see some real progress and my head tells me that is only likely if BK sells to a new buyer. I think that is only likely if the price is realistic (i.e. around or possibly only very slightly higher than the price paid to buy out Peter Johnson). BK seems unwilling to sell at around that price but one reason may be that he fears an asset stripper who can see that the value of the current playing staff as far exceeding that sort of price. In all honesty if a sale will not be progress then we are possibly better keeping the status quo. Is the best we can realistically hope for to be a buyer similar to Randy Lerner at Aston Villa or the American at Sunderland and if so would that be any better than the current position?
Martin, if BK had the best interests of the club at heart, then when offered a solution to the money needed for what would have probalby been one of the best stadiums in Europe by Gregg, he would have taken it.
IMO, the reason he didn't take Gregg up on the deal, was it meant him giving up some of his train-set.
IMO, the reason he didn't take Gregg up on the deal, was it meant him giving up some of his train-set.
So Gregg was going to fund the whole stadium development? My view was that he would facilitate the `in` money to secure the site on a loan basis and the rest was down to Kenwright?
Total borrowings on that project would have amounted to £150M at least ? how could that possibly have been serviced?
Total borrowings on that project would have amounted to £150M at least ? how could that possibly have been serviced?
Richard, we'll never know unfortunately. But, having the only state of the art stadium in the area, offering improved conferencing facilities from match days and other sports events. And the ability to host pre echo arena concerts etc, would surely have offered excellent revenue streams.
The one that got away...
The one that got away...
I agree, Simon, but gawd knows how it could have been paid for!
Doddy I believe the investment was more in the region of £30m for their 50% requirement for the £150m stadium with significant funding through European regeneration money which is no longer available, probably won't ever get another chance of a similar set of opportunities as those available at the time.
The ERDF poured £48m into the Kings Dock - http://www.communities.gov.uk/regeneration/regenerationfunding/europeanregionaldevelopment/
A development of this kind would have created significant non match day revenue more than capable of financing the mortgage, just look at the Echo Arena on a much smaller scale and the frequency and sell out events
The ERDF poured £48m into the Kings Dock - http://www.communities.gov.uk/regeneration/regenerationfunding/europeanregionaldevelopment/
A development of this kind would have created significant non match day revenue more than capable of financing the mortgage, just look at the Echo Arena on a much smaller scale and the frequency and sell out events
It still meant funding over £100M of borrowings, though... and I doubt if BK could find the security for that.
Richard, If he couldn't fund King's Dock how on earth was he supposed to fund Kirby? At least King's Dock was worth getting into debt for.
Doddy the opportunities were rife at the time for peripheral builds, hotel, leisure, etc which should have been enablers for the club. The KD really was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Even more so considered the unaffordable cattle shed in Kirkby he tried to lumber the club with as his version of a stadium and he couldn't afford the £78m plus for that either as an enabler for a poxy supermarket in a rundown town with a smaller population than the stadium itself.
Richard 353 & 358 The Ground would have been it's own security. As to how it would've been paid for, probably some sort of mortgage where again the ground was its own security. The banks 'give' you the money to buy your house on the strength of the bricks and mortar.
There would no doubt be all sorts of bean counter-esque 'accomodations' of the "ask us no questions and we'll tell you no lies, it's a two way street, we all trust each,other, we're all men of the world" etc. Those in the trade will know that sort of pre-crash jiggery pokery backwards.
It's not about the actual sausage, it's about selling the sizzle.
There would no doubt be all sorts of bean counter-esque 'accomodations' of the "ask us no questions and we'll tell you no lies, it's a two way street, we all trust each,other, we're all men of the world" etc. Those in the trade will know that sort of pre-crash jiggery pokery backwards.
It's not about the actual sausage, it's about selling the sizzle.
Thanks,Paul.Seems a good deal although It still seems the Club couldn`t afford to fund it.In spite of the statement in this piece they clearly did not have the £30M available.Strange,though,that the original source relied on for this funding have now showed up at Reading.
Martin Mason
I believe that I was being somewhat disingenuous when I previously called you a fuckwit; I realise I was wrong and I apologise to all those on here, whom I have misled, because after your post #314 I realise that you?re actually a prize winning half-wit as that is the only description anybody could use after reading your interpretation of the inquiry into Kirkby.
?Surprisingly the Report accepts the £52M subsidy is real? you say when the inquiry report clearly states, ?the council is funding the stadium through the uplift in the VALUE of its land?.
What is it you do not understand about the word VALUE? You cannot pay a stadium contractor with a value; you pay them with hard cash and it is clear that this DID NOT EXIST.
Imagine that I was given a piece of land for nothing, because that happens every day of the week. Now imagine that I obtained planning permission after which I contracted some builders, paid them £500,000 to build a house and landscape the land and then had the house VALUED at £1,000,000. I suppose at a stretch I could say the person who had given me the land had given me £500,000, once the property was sold and the VALUE realised, but I could never say that the additional £500,000 VALUE in any way contributed to the £500,000 COST of the house, as a VALUE is nothing until realised; hence the reason the Government inspector said, ?facilitate an increase in the VALUE of the club for the benefit of its present owners? and how would the aforementioned benefit be realised?
Ahem......?I'm saying the club is for sale. My shares have been for sale since the day I bought the club.?Bill Kenwright Sept 2008. The EGM where Bill Kenwright told 700 shareholders that Keith Harris had been employed to sell the club yet three months later Robert Elstone told the Inquiry that Keith Harris wasn?t selling the club and the club was not up for sale. All documented and incontestable proof that the chairman is a liar who should not be in the boardroom.
You?re argument is lost. Nobody but you talks of malfeasance or criminal activity. I bring none because I do not make the accusation. It?s an old trick, it?s used by the failures in the club quite a lot; they also have nothing to say except pure shite either.
I?m not sure what planet you?re on Martian but on the planet earth there?s an abundance of evidence that confirms Bill Kenwright as not only the worst chairman in Everton?s history but the most deceitful; John Houlding was better!
I know some people like to play fair and give the benefit of the doubt; I don?t. Thanks for the opportunity to explain to even more people the disgraceful con perpetrated by our excuse of a board. Now more will realise the legitimacy and the reason behind The Blue Union?s request to bring in professionals; or maybe they have something to hide? ;-0
I believe that I was being somewhat disingenuous when I previously called you a fuckwit; I realise I was wrong and I apologise to all those on here, whom I have misled, because after your post #314 I realise that you?re actually a prize winning half-wit as that is the only description anybody could use after reading your interpretation of the inquiry into Kirkby.
?Surprisingly the Report accepts the £52M subsidy is real? you say when the inquiry report clearly states, ?the council is funding the stadium through the uplift in the VALUE of its land?.
What is it you do not understand about the word VALUE? You cannot pay a stadium contractor with a value; you pay them with hard cash and it is clear that this DID NOT EXIST.
Imagine that I was given a piece of land for nothing, because that happens every day of the week. Now imagine that I obtained planning permission after which I contracted some builders, paid them £500,000 to build a house and landscape the land and then had the house VALUED at £1,000,000. I suppose at a stretch I could say the person who had given me the land had given me £500,000, once the property was sold and the VALUE realised, but I could never say that the additional £500,000 VALUE in any way contributed to the £500,000 COST of the house, as a VALUE is nothing until realised; hence the reason the Government inspector said, ?facilitate an increase in the VALUE of the club for the benefit of its present owners? and how would the aforementioned benefit be realised?
Ahem......?I'm saying the club is for sale. My shares have been for sale since the day I bought the club.?Bill Kenwright Sept 2008. The EGM where Bill Kenwright told 700 shareholders that Keith Harris had been employed to sell the club yet three months later Robert Elstone told the Inquiry that Keith Harris wasn?t selling the club and the club was not up for sale. All documented and incontestable proof that the chairman is a liar who should not be in the boardroom.
You?re argument is lost. Nobody but you talks of malfeasance or criminal activity. I bring none because I do not make the accusation. It?s an old trick, it?s used by the failures in the club quite a lot; they also have nothing to say except pure shite either.
I?m not sure what planet you?re on Martian but on the planet earth there?s an abundance of evidence that confirms Bill Kenwright as not only the worst chairman in Everton?s history but the most deceitful; John Houlding was better!
I know some people like to play fair and give the benefit of the doubt; I don?t. Thanks for the opportunity to explain to even more people the disgraceful con perpetrated by our excuse of a board. Now more will realise the legitimacy and the reason behind The Blue Union?s request to bring in professionals; or maybe they have something to hide? ;-0
Colin,at the risk of being dubbed a liar merely for asking you a question, do you truly believe that Everton is saleable?
Richard,
Don?t be a smart arse we both know what you were badly attempting to do and it was bollocks.
Yes I do believe that Everton could be sold to a better owner with the resources to awaken the club. You could sell it, I could sell it and so could a whole host of others.
It?s clearly demonstrable that Bill Kenwright can?t sell Everton, the evidence is staring everyone in the face.
He obtained Everton when he really shouldn?t have. It may not have been the disaster that it has become if he had quickly sold it to Paul Gregg, for instance, who at least had a plan to add real value to the club by making The King?s Dock a reality. If this had happened Kenwright would have been a hero; he would have saved the club from that dastardly Johnson, passed it to Gregg because he realised his own limitations and his own illusion of being an über blue would have gone down in the annals of toffee history; they wouldn?t even have needed to fiddle the hall of fame vote!
Instead we had the FSF, then we had DK and then Goodison Place and between all that we had calamity after calamity; we're being run by amateurs in a professional game.
Kenwright and the rest of his entourage were at it over Kirkby, it?s as plain as the nose on your face. I actually don?t have a problem with that; what I have a problem with was that while they were at it they were selling Everton out; we were being left in an unsuitable stadium in an unsuitable location and all for the benefit of the chairman and who he brings along with him. What that benefit was is open to interpretation but as I said earlier Bill Kenwright should never have been involved in the ownership enigma of Everton.
Martian Mason thinks looking at a balance sheet is rubbish; everyone else thinks it indicates the health of a business. The present incumbents can?t sell the business; move over and let some professionals do it.
Since Kenwright has been chairman we haven't won one trophy; Liverpool in that time have won eleven, ELEVEN!
And still they clap..................
Don?t be a smart arse we both know what you were badly attempting to do and it was bollocks.
Yes I do believe that Everton could be sold to a better owner with the resources to awaken the club. You could sell it, I could sell it and so could a whole host of others.
It?s clearly demonstrable that Bill Kenwright can?t sell Everton, the evidence is staring everyone in the face.
He obtained Everton when he really shouldn?t have. It may not have been the disaster that it has become if he had quickly sold it to Paul Gregg, for instance, who at least had a plan to add real value to the club by making The King?s Dock a reality. If this had happened Kenwright would have been a hero; he would have saved the club from that dastardly Johnson, passed it to Gregg because he realised his own limitations and his own illusion of being an über blue would have gone down in the annals of toffee history; they wouldn?t even have needed to fiddle the hall of fame vote!
Instead we had the FSF, then we had DK and then Goodison Place and between all that we had calamity after calamity; we're being run by amateurs in a professional game.
Kenwright and the rest of his entourage were at it over Kirkby, it?s as plain as the nose on your face. I actually don?t have a problem with that; what I have a problem with was that while they were at it they were selling Everton out; we were being left in an unsuitable stadium in an unsuitable location and all for the benefit of the chairman and who he brings along with him. What that benefit was is open to interpretation but as I said earlier Bill Kenwright should never have been involved in the ownership enigma of Everton.
Martian Mason thinks looking at a balance sheet is rubbish; everyone else thinks it indicates the health of a business. The present incumbents can?t sell the business; move over and let some professionals do it.
Since Kenwright has been chairman we haven't won one trophy; Liverpool in that time have won eleven, ELEVEN!
And still they clap..................
Colin
You must get fed up in educating people like Martin but would like to make a comment on the EFCSA... Kirkby wasn't the day they lost the watchdog tag; it was in 1938 when the Shareholders of Everton decided that they would go with the block vote.
You must get fed up in educating people like Martin but would like to make a comment on the EFCSA... Kirkby wasn't the day they lost the watchdog tag; it was in 1938 when the Shareholders of Everton decided that they would go with the block vote.
Martin.
You in an earlier post mention signings like Ginola and Gazza as examples of how bad we were in the past.
Are you forgetting these two acquisitions were made on Kenwright's watch,not Peter Johnson's?
Also you mention about 'previous boards' at Everton. Are you forgetting that Kenwright has been on the board since 1989 and therefore his fingerprints have been all over the major cocks-ups the club have made since then that has got us into the mess we are in now?
It's often forgot by BK supporters that he was very much part of Peter Johnson's board.
You in an earlier post mention signings like Ginola and Gazza as examples of how bad we were in the past.
Are you forgetting these two acquisitions were made on Kenwright's watch,not Peter Johnson's?
Also you mention about 'previous boards' at Everton. Are you forgetting that Kenwright has been on the board since 1989 and therefore his fingerprints have been all over the major cocks-ups the club have made since then that has got us into the mess we are in now?
It's often forgot by BK supporters that he was very much part of Peter Johnson's board.
Paul #376
You know what mate I don't. If they didn't post their shite I'd have nothing to say!
They still say the description of watchdogs carries weight today on the OS - http://www.evertonfc.com/club/shareholders.html
For me it doesn't, and for me Kirkby proved it was just empty rhetoric. Like I say, I like a lot of the people in the SA, they're staunch Evertonians but they need to grow a pair and challenge the directors by calling an EGM. Just like when it comes to Bill, actions speak louder than words and Bill's actions over Kirkby and the sale of the club speaks volumes!!!!
Anyway enough of that; have you sorted that church out yet? lol
You know what mate I don't. If they didn't post their shite I'd have nothing to say!
They still say the description of watchdogs carries weight today on the OS - http://www.evertonfc.com/club/shareholders.html
For me it doesn't, and for me Kirkby proved it was just empty rhetoric. Like I say, I like a lot of the people in the SA, they're staunch Evertonians but they need to grow a pair and challenge the directors by calling an EGM. Just like when it comes to Bill, actions speak louder than words and Bill's actions over Kirkby and the sale of the club speaks volumes!!!!
Anyway enough of that; have you sorted that church out yet? lol
Paul Hardcastle #369..
Great link.
Makes me angry just reading it.. still after all these years..
I wish the pictures of the stadium could be deleted from the internet..
Great link.
Makes me angry just reading it.. still after all these years..
I wish the pictures of the stadium could be deleted from the internet..
Guys, I'd love to respond but I'm retiring undefeated. I know that nobody is going to answer my two questions and Colin''s spit flecked rantings don't add anything to sensible discussion between adults. Thanks to those who have contributed to the discussion constructively.
Martin 382; Everybody out of step but you eh.
Martin go and bury your head in the sand, your inabillity to face facts, means your either a club plant or a fool. MY OPINION. obviously but well founded.
Richard, you need to list these "facts" so that I can check if you're talking through your dung trumpet. Most facts so far have been opinions and nothing to do with the points I raised, some posts, like yours for example, don't actually say anything but are straight from the playground. Now, do you have an answer for either of my questions or not?
Derek, only me and a very large majority of Evertonians who are also not actively attempting to undermine the club but support it through these difficult times.
Yours sincerely, Mr Kenwright's Batman
Derek, only me and a very large majority of Evertonians who are also not actively attempting to undermine the club but support it through these difficult times.
Yours sincerely, Mr Kenwright's Batman
I don't see this majority outside supporting their man when the protests are on, Martin.
Fair does, Martin. Peter Mendleson could learn a thing or to from you about spin.
Fair does, Martin. Peter Mendleson could learn a thing or to from you about spin.
Well I was Kaiser Bills batman so what. You retired ( so called ) undefeated, methinks you protest too much. There's only one ( again so called ) Evertonian undermining this Club and it ain't me. I must admit you are a very plausable wind up merchant though.. POW ..ZAP same bat time same bat bollocks
Martin,
"Yes, they can and have but many have had money from councils or sugar daddy directors."
Some have had rich benefactors, many more have simply been better run. Planned for the future and delivered. Not many of the dozens of new stands, and whole new stadia are a result of cash injections from the rich owners.... most are simply financed from within. This has occured throughout the league.... with very few opting to "do nothing". No-one is saying we have a right to success.... we do however have a right to expect that the board either delivers or moves aside to allow more suitable candidates to do so. Wolves old board recognised that they had taken the club as far as the could and moved aside to allow others to invest....Similar take-overs have occured elsewhere during BK's tenure. We are a dying club because the board has failed to grow everything about it. Sunderland had barely averaged over 30k once in the 35 seasons before they left Roker..... They showed ambition, and in recent seasons have averaged over 45k. Newcastle similarly expanded their existing stadium beyond recognition and the fans flooded back, and despite not having averaged over 40k in the previous 45 seasons they now regularly average over 50k..... Spurs, Villa, Arsenal and many others all expanded stadia within the clubs' operating finances and via investment opportunities.... and their futures are now secured (as much as any football club can be). They have grown their fanbases and/or finances via improving facilities and investing in their team. But it doesn't stop there, you can go through the whole league, and you will see the repeated theme of clubs maximising revenue by investment in infrastructure. We did nothing!
"Everton has decided over many years to buy players and pay them high wages before they sorted out infrastructure."
Perhaps.... but other clubs have managed to do both. I could almost go along with the argument if we had outspent most others year after year, but we haven't. We've hardly set the transfer market alight, and we've invested nothing in real value adding facilities. Moyes has generated all of his own funds. We could've been run by a chimps tea-party and had the same outcomes!
"They have been managed badly. It has no bearing on the points"
It has no bearing? That's where the story begins and ends...You are not really making ANY point...... "badly managed" is the only point.
"I?m saying we are where we are, we are almost certainly stuck with BK and you need to start from that position"
We are where we are because of the board's impotence, incompetence, and in some cases disinterest. All very valid reasons for not accepting the status quo.
"DK ended up being a disaster but the basic idea was good (and it was simple) and I?m not in ignorance of what happened. Remember, you fall into the trap of developing an opinion and believing it as fact".
Yes but my opinion is based on having studied stadium design and having worked on several similar sized schemes. Simon Inglis is a world renowned stadium expert and expressed grave concerns about the clubs future in Kirkby and the quality of the design and everything that went with it. No-one, even those involved in promoting KD would now say that it was a good idea. It didn't even have the basics in place. Rod Sheard in a world renowned stadium designer.... he has also written many excellent books on the subject... from planning through to design. Kirkby satisfied none of his fundamental criteria..... and importantly, at no point was DK measured against other options such as redevelopment by the club. No process.... no clue, start to finish. Not opinion, just fact..... that's why it doesn't exist.... another stark fact!
"I disagree, see the point above. There was no dereliction of duty. The concept of leveraging a new ground by allowing a commercial development on council land was sound"
So how come the leveraged finance only amounted to approx $12m? Could it be that as KEIOC stated at the ballot, out of town retail sheds are the poorest enablers? The enabling packages at KD was many times that of DK, as their value was far greater.... the whole enabling carrot was a complete red herring. The NWDA alone were going to pay more than the whole Tesco/arcadia enabling white knight.
"Incompetence isn?t criminal negligence"
I'm sorry but I find your circular and often contradictory arguments to be nonsensical. Incompetence has been the root of serial negligence.. You say it yourself.... the club has been mismanaged. Whether or not it is a criminal offence seems to be your only concern. I'm sorry but if you're shown to be incompetent, and repeatedly mismanage, you need to go....... As in every other walk of life. BK is no exception.
"Ditto for KD, wasn?t it based on EFC finding £30 Million? How would that happen from a club without 30 pence?"
Well why enter into the whole project in the first place? Then ultimately why wasn't Gregg's offer not accepted? He was a board member, he had the cash. I watched BK squirm out of every question about this at the following AGM's! He had no excuses, and still hasn't.... and lost the club's greatest opportunity in over a century. I'm sorry you cannot just sweep that size of blunder under the carpet..... "Ditto" for DK.
"Of course there were lies but BK is very much into telling the fans what he believes will endear them to him. More fool us for believing him. KD was the ultimate best plan for Everton but it needed us to have some real money?"
But, we didn't all believe him. When someone lies I'm inclined to wonder why. What is their motive? If they continue to do so that would tend to set further alarm bells off in my head..... for you, like the mismanagement issue this is perefectly acceptable.... we just have to live with it..... well again, I beg to differ. If people lie to you, I think we are perfectly entitled to challenge them. TBH, this illustrates perfectly where you are really coming from in this whole charade of yours. You were obviously a supporter of DK, and because many behind the BU were patently not..... then you are more prepared to accept ALL the well-documented lies, incompetence and mistakes..... because that would be your admission of being duped in the first place, and aligning yourself with the "other lot", god forbid. Even now you end your posts with "I'm retiring undefeated".....
"actively pursuing actions that were not in the best interests of the club."
It's getting tiresome now..... but how was the engineered loss of KD in the best interests of the club?
How was the completely discredited DK scheme prompted by third parties ever in the clubs best interests? This was completely disproven even before the public inquiry.
"The board invested to buy the club, they have no legal or moral obligation to do more and on what evidence do you have that they haven?t developed schemes to improve the club?"
They do have a moral obligation to move the club forward by whatever means at their disposal..... they have failed to deliver every project that they've undertaken. They have added the least value of any club board.
""The fanbase doesn?t invest millions into the club. Even as shareholders they are customers because they have no say in how it is run and obtain no income from what they pay. If you don?t like that then you must stop going. Of course you?d argue that because of the emotional attachments we're far more important than customers but that is our true relationship. EFC isn?t a sports club it?s a business. The shareholders want to make a lot of money from the club, that is absolutely their prerogative, they want to sell to the right people and that is brilliant so again, we?re here ? what now?"
You appear to have no understanding of the fan club relationship. What if we all stop going? The club ceases to exist instantly..... and unfortunately many have already voted with their feet..... hardly the progressive way forward you're trying sell us. Unlike any other business/service provider it cannot upsticks and try to attract a whole new fanbase with a whole new product. It cannot reinvent itself nor ignore the fact that we are the greatest income source (directly and indirectly), the greatest asset and the entire goodwill encapsulated. In otherwords, we are the club as much as any bricks and mortar or share certificate. While it may be their prerogative to seek profit, the flip side of the business utopian ideal is that failure might not be rewarded.... That chestnut is the thing that they're having particular difficulty swallowing at the moment. You never know, we could all do nothing for another season. Moyes might work miracles with the assembled band of aging pros and loanies, perhaps winning us the cup and raising our stock sufficiently for the carpet baggers to finally jump ship. Hardly the greatest plan in the world though is it?
"Yes, they can and have but many have had money from councils or sugar daddy directors."
Some have had rich benefactors, many more have simply been better run. Planned for the future and delivered. Not many of the dozens of new stands, and whole new stadia are a result of cash injections from the rich owners.... most are simply financed from within. This has occured throughout the league.... with very few opting to "do nothing". No-one is saying we have a right to success.... we do however have a right to expect that the board either delivers or moves aside to allow more suitable candidates to do so. Wolves old board recognised that they had taken the club as far as the could and moved aside to allow others to invest....Similar take-overs have occured elsewhere during BK's tenure. We are a dying club because the board has failed to grow everything about it. Sunderland had barely averaged over 30k once in the 35 seasons before they left Roker..... They showed ambition, and in recent seasons have averaged over 45k. Newcastle similarly expanded their existing stadium beyond recognition and the fans flooded back, and despite not having averaged over 40k in the previous 45 seasons they now regularly average over 50k..... Spurs, Villa, Arsenal and many others all expanded stadia within the clubs' operating finances and via investment opportunities.... and their futures are now secured (as much as any football club can be). They have grown their fanbases and/or finances via improving facilities and investing in their team. But it doesn't stop there, you can go through the whole league, and you will see the repeated theme of clubs maximising revenue by investment in infrastructure. We did nothing!
"Everton has decided over many years to buy players and pay them high wages before they sorted out infrastructure."
Perhaps.... but other clubs have managed to do both. I could almost go along with the argument if we had outspent most others year after year, but we haven't. We've hardly set the transfer market alight, and we've invested nothing in real value adding facilities. Moyes has generated all of his own funds. We could've been run by a chimps tea-party and had the same outcomes!
"They have been managed badly. It has no bearing on the points"
It has no bearing? That's where the story begins and ends...You are not really making ANY point...... "badly managed" is the only point.
"I?m saying we are where we are, we are almost certainly stuck with BK and you need to start from that position"
We are where we are because of the board's impotence, incompetence, and in some cases disinterest. All very valid reasons for not accepting the status quo.
"DK ended up being a disaster but the basic idea was good (and it was simple) and I?m not in ignorance of what happened. Remember, you fall into the trap of developing an opinion and believing it as fact".
Yes but my opinion is based on having studied stadium design and having worked on several similar sized schemes. Simon Inglis is a world renowned stadium expert and expressed grave concerns about the clubs future in Kirkby and the quality of the design and everything that went with it. No-one, even those involved in promoting KD would now say that it was a good idea. It didn't even have the basics in place. Rod Sheard in a world renowned stadium designer.... he has also written many excellent books on the subject... from planning through to design. Kirkby satisfied none of his fundamental criteria..... and importantly, at no point was DK measured against other options such as redevelopment by the club. No process.... no clue, start to finish. Not opinion, just fact..... that's why it doesn't exist.... another stark fact!
"I disagree, see the point above. There was no dereliction of duty. The concept of leveraging a new ground by allowing a commercial development on council land was sound"
So how come the leveraged finance only amounted to approx $12m? Could it be that as KEIOC stated at the ballot, out of town retail sheds are the poorest enablers? The enabling packages at KD was many times that of DK, as their value was far greater.... the whole enabling carrot was a complete red herring. The NWDA alone were going to pay more than the whole Tesco/arcadia enabling white knight.
"Incompetence isn?t criminal negligence"
I'm sorry but I find your circular and often contradictory arguments to be nonsensical. Incompetence has been the root of serial negligence.. You say it yourself.... the club has been mismanaged. Whether or not it is a criminal offence seems to be your only concern. I'm sorry but if you're shown to be incompetent, and repeatedly mismanage, you need to go....... As in every other walk of life. BK is no exception.
"Ditto for KD, wasn?t it based on EFC finding £30 Million? How would that happen from a club without 30 pence?"
Well why enter into the whole project in the first place? Then ultimately why wasn't Gregg's offer not accepted? He was a board member, he had the cash. I watched BK squirm out of every question about this at the following AGM's! He had no excuses, and still hasn't.... and lost the club's greatest opportunity in over a century. I'm sorry you cannot just sweep that size of blunder under the carpet..... "Ditto" for DK.
"Of course there were lies but BK is very much into telling the fans what he believes will endear them to him. More fool us for believing him. KD was the ultimate best plan for Everton but it needed us to have some real money?"
But, we didn't all believe him. When someone lies I'm inclined to wonder why. What is their motive? If they continue to do so that would tend to set further alarm bells off in my head..... for you, like the mismanagement issue this is perefectly acceptable.... we just have to live with it..... well again, I beg to differ. If people lie to you, I think we are perfectly entitled to challenge them. TBH, this illustrates perfectly where you are really coming from in this whole charade of yours. You were obviously a supporter of DK, and because many behind the BU were patently not..... then you are more prepared to accept ALL the well-documented lies, incompetence and mistakes..... because that would be your admission of being duped in the first place, and aligning yourself with the "other lot", god forbid. Even now you end your posts with "I'm retiring undefeated".....
"actively pursuing actions that were not in the best interests of the club."
It's getting tiresome now..... but how was the engineered loss of KD in the best interests of the club?
How was the completely discredited DK scheme prompted by third parties ever in the clubs best interests? This was completely disproven even before the public inquiry.
"The board invested to buy the club, they have no legal or moral obligation to do more and on what evidence do you have that they haven?t developed schemes to improve the club?"
They do have a moral obligation to move the club forward by whatever means at their disposal..... they have failed to deliver every project that they've undertaken. They have added the least value of any club board.
""The fanbase doesn?t invest millions into the club. Even as shareholders they are customers because they have no say in how it is run and obtain no income from what they pay. If you don?t like that then you must stop going. Of course you?d argue that because of the emotional attachments we're far more important than customers but that is our true relationship. EFC isn?t a sports club it?s a business. The shareholders want to make a lot of money from the club, that is absolutely their prerogative, they want to sell to the right people and that is brilliant so again, we?re here ? what now?"
You appear to have no understanding of the fan club relationship. What if we all stop going? The club ceases to exist instantly..... and unfortunately many have already voted with their feet..... hardly the progressive way forward you're trying sell us. Unlike any other business/service provider it cannot upsticks and try to attract a whole new fanbase with a whole new product. It cannot reinvent itself nor ignore the fact that we are the greatest income source (directly and indirectly), the greatest asset and the entire goodwill encapsulated. In otherwords, we are the club as much as any bricks and mortar or share certificate. While it may be their prerogative to seek profit, the flip side of the business utopian ideal is that failure might not be rewarded.... That chestnut is the thing that they're having particular difficulty swallowing at the moment. You never know, we could all do nothing for another season. Moyes might work miracles with the assembled band of aging pros and loanies, perhaps winning us the cup and raising our stock sufficiently for the carpet baggers to finally jump ship. Hardly the greatest plan in the world though is it?
Martin,
Many people have posted fact after fact..... You're ONLY remaining argument (if you could call it that, because you certainly do not have a point) is whether or not the multiple cock-ups and mismanagement (which you blissfully accept as fact) constitute criminal negligence. So what? Who cares if he's covered his tracks? Running the club into the ground and even out of existence might not see BK in court for a criminal offence..... it will however mean that his tenure has been a dismal failure, that may consign us to history..... but it's all ok as long as BK's done nothing illegal? Brilliantly profound or infinitely irrelevant? I think the responses show what the "majority" of Evertonians think.
Many people have posted fact after fact..... You're ONLY remaining argument (if you could call it that, because you certainly do not have a point) is whether or not the multiple cock-ups and mismanagement (which you blissfully accept as fact) constitute criminal negligence. So what? Who cares if he's covered his tracks? Running the club into the ground and even out of existence might not see BK in court for a criminal offence..... it will however mean that his tenure has been a dismal failure, that may consign us to history..... but it's all ok as long as BK's done nothing illegal? Brilliantly profound or infinitely irrelevant? I think the responses show what the "majority" of Evertonians think.
Martin
"I wish I was as sure of anything as you are of everything"
Facts v opinions
Here's a few facts. demonstrable and proveable offered without opinion..
Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing
Bill Kenwright tells porkies when it suits him
Bill Kenwright says he does not know all that goes on at the club
Bill Kenwright acted as a kopite and, for his own pecuniary advantage, insulted and denigrated EFC and its players on national television
As for Bill's batman, try suppository
"I wish I was as sure of anything as you are of everything"
Facts v opinions
Here's a few facts. demonstrable and proveable offered without opinion..
Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing
Bill Kenwright tells porkies when it suits him
Bill Kenwright says he does not know all that goes on at the club
Bill Kenwright acted as a kopite and, for his own pecuniary advantage, insulted and denigrated EFC and its players on national television
As for Bill's batman, try suppository
Richard
People who have no gripes or who believe that their gripes can be managed by the club don't have to demonstrate. By the fact that they were not demonstrating means that they dont agree with the protesters.
and Oi, I may be a twat but I'm not a twat like that snake Mendleson.
Bloody hell Tom, did you write War and Peace? I'll be back in a day or two when I've read your post.
Derek, I'm anything but a wind up merchant. I just believe that there is a counter argument to the stuff that is being generated by many which is often more propaganda than even opinion or fact. The main grievance deep down is I believe that as fans we believe that Everton should guarantee us success so that we can bask in the reflected glory, we haven't got success therefore the board has been negligent. But there is an alternative reality which is that in 2012, with clubs competing as businesses and the majority of the revenue being hogged by just a few clubs, that a small club from a deprived area of a city that has been in managed decline for decades with its population being distributed to overflow towns and with no brand image just cannot be as succesful as some of us demand. The alternative reality is that we are doing well, producing a conveyor belt of good young players and astute buys (yes and some dreadful ones) that are keeping us above where our resources dictate that we should perhaps be. I personally believe our natural position is closer to the relegation positions with the occasional fear of the drop. That we can get into the top 8 or top 6 is to me very good not disgraceful. I know I could be talking through my own dung trumpet but I'm an Evertonian, I have been for well over 50 years and I'm an optimist and hopefully a realist.
People who have no gripes or who believe that their gripes can be managed by the club don't have to demonstrate. By the fact that they were not demonstrating means that they dont agree with the protesters.
and Oi, I may be a twat but I'm not a twat like that snake Mendleson.
Bloody hell Tom, did you write War and Peace? I'll be back in a day or two when I've read your post.
Derek, I'm anything but a wind up merchant. I just believe that there is a counter argument to the stuff that is being generated by many which is often more propaganda than even opinion or fact. The main grievance deep down is I believe that as fans we believe that Everton should guarantee us success so that we can bask in the reflected glory, we haven't got success therefore the board has been negligent. But there is an alternative reality which is that in 2012, with clubs competing as businesses and the majority of the revenue being hogged by just a few clubs, that a small club from a deprived area of a city that has been in managed decline for decades with its population being distributed to overflow towns and with no brand image just cannot be as succesful as some of us demand. The alternative reality is that we are doing well, producing a conveyor belt of good young players and astute buys (yes and some dreadful ones) that are keeping us above where our resources dictate that we should perhaps be. I personally believe our natural position is closer to the relegation positions with the occasional fear of the drop. That we can get into the top 8 or top 6 is to me very good not disgraceful. I know I could be talking through my own dung trumpet but I'm an Evertonian, I have been for well over 50 years and I'm an optimist and hopefully a realist.
Phil, every point that you state as fact is an opinion.
Martin, would you be so kind as to answer some questions for me?
Did man actually walk on the moon?
Was JFK actually shot?
Can you define the word "fact"?
Have you ever applied for Jury duty?
If someone breaks in to a house which does not belong to them without permission and takes everything is this person a burglar? Or are they only a burglar when the police catch, hold and then charge them?
thanks in advance.
Did man actually walk on the moon?
Was JFK actually shot?
Can you define the word "fact"?
Have you ever applied for Jury duty?
If someone breaks in to a house which does not belong to them without permission and takes everything is this person a burglar? Or are they only a burglar when the police catch, hold and then charge them?
thanks in advance.
No Martin - don't be so obtuse; I've given you provable, documented facts
Do you want the link to YouTube?
The lies are statements issued, without coercion, from the mouth of Bill Kenwright, recorded in the public domain and well documented in the press, on television and on this site and others
Some centuries ago, opinion was that the Sun orbited the Earth; it was a popular opinion but unsustainable once the facts were known and proven
You are a sad, strange, blinkered person
Do you want the link to YouTube?
The lies are statements issued, without coercion, from the mouth of Bill Kenwright, recorded in the public domain and well documented in the press, on television and on this site and others
Some centuries ago, opinion was that the Sun orbited the Earth; it was a popular opinion but unsustainable once the facts were known and proven
You are a sad, strange, blinkered person
Long story short Martin do you think that Bill has done as good a job as he reasonabley could be expected to do since he took over. When his exam paper is marked by future Blues, no matter what happens in the future ( who can tell ) as of today did he pass or fail.
Yes or No
Yes or No
Martin,
I realise lots of posters want to challenge your opinions, but could you answer one question I would like to put to you?
If Everton are put into administration, relegated, or simply cannot purchase any players to compete, how will this affect you directly?
I realise lots of posters want to challenge your opinions, but could you answer one question I would like to put to you?
If Everton are put into administration, relegated, or simply cannot purchase any players to compete, how will this affect you directly?
Tom
I won?t answer all of your points because you raise many, I will not respond to any point you make when you are personalizing it and I may not respond to any points which are not relevant to the points I make.
Firstly you confuse the issue that many clubs have built infrastructure therefore EFC are grossly negligent because they haven?t. Many have also done it at the expense of being in the EPL in addition to having outside money coming in that we don?t have. The exception I see is Arsenal but they are half the side they were. What you need to do is not spray fog but to give an example of one club that has developed its new ground, stayed in the EPL and been successful, had no outside money put in and has done it purely by being run better than EFC.
Now, you haven?t read and understood a word of what I have been saying have you? I have never said that they have been managed well in fact the opposite. For your info, I said that there isn?t a shred of evidence of criminal negligence or any actions being taken that weren?t in their eyes in the best interest of the club. Fact ? incompetence isn?t criminal negligence
I repeat, we are where we are, we are almost certainly stuck with BK and you need to start from that position". How we got there is a matter only of opinion and is irrelevant to the point points.
I repeat that the basic idea of DK was good in that it provided EFC with subsidy to buy their ground. What you say about the stadium design may be correct but my point is still valid. It was done in their eyes with the best interest of EFC with no criminal intent. Your opinion that there were better alternatives is just that-opinion. I did say that they didn?t do enough work to get the proposal through but my point is the accusation is criminal negligence, underhand dealing, siphoning money, etc. All I want is evidence of that not that they could have done better, isn?t hindsight wonderful?
The amount of subsidy that the development generated for Everton was J52 MM as long as the full development went ahead. That is not denied in the report so I?ll accept that it is correct. Again it is irrelevant to the point. Where is the criminal negligence or dereliction of duty
Once again incompetence is not criminal negligence. That needs deliberate intent. You can of course prove that EFC acted with deliberate negligence knowing that it was not in the best interest of the club. Prove it or accept that it is only your opinion.
I repeat that KD was a fantasy as we were never in a position to do the deal. It was inexcusable to have postured that we were in a position to buy. I agree that he is a fantasist and if there is a law against that lets prosecute him. It may also be though that he was convinced or guaranteed by others that he could raise the money and he was let down, there are many other alternatives and you don?t know what the reality was. Is anybody stupid enough to take a deal so far when there was no chance of it happening?
They have added the least value of any club board? Do you want me to give you any credibility?
Stop buying the product and the business will begin to suffer, that is the wonder of the market and the club fan relationship is no different. We stop going, the club starts to fail, they reduce the asking price so they can avoid going down, they find a bidder. Compare that with we whine but keep going, the board carry on as before with no reason to sell and nothing changes.
I won?t answer all of your points because you raise many, I will not respond to any point you make when you are personalizing it and I may not respond to any points which are not relevant to the points I make.
Firstly you confuse the issue that many clubs have built infrastructure therefore EFC are grossly negligent because they haven?t. Many have also done it at the expense of being in the EPL in addition to having outside money coming in that we don?t have. The exception I see is Arsenal but they are half the side they were. What you need to do is not spray fog but to give an example of one club that has developed its new ground, stayed in the EPL and been successful, had no outside money put in and has done it purely by being run better than EFC.
Now, you haven?t read and understood a word of what I have been saying have you? I have never said that they have been managed well in fact the opposite. For your info, I said that there isn?t a shred of evidence of criminal negligence or any actions being taken that weren?t in their eyes in the best interest of the club. Fact ? incompetence isn?t criminal negligence
I repeat, we are where we are, we are almost certainly stuck with BK and you need to start from that position". How we got there is a matter only of opinion and is irrelevant to the point points.
I repeat that the basic idea of DK was good in that it provided EFC with subsidy to buy their ground. What you say about the stadium design may be correct but my point is still valid. It was done in their eyes with the best interest of EFC with no criminal intent. Your opinion that there were better alternatives is just that-opinion. I did say that they didn?t do enough work to get the proposal through but my point is the accusation is criminal negligence, underhand dealing, siphoning money, etc. All I want is evidence of that not that they could have done better, isn?t hindsight wonderful?
The amount of subsidy that the development generated for Everton was J52 MM as long as the full development went ahead. That is not denied in the report so I?ll accept that it is correct. Again it is irrelevant to the point. Where is the criminal negligence or dereliction of duty
Once again incompetence is not criminal negligence. That needs deliberate intent. You can of course prove that EFC acted with deliberate negligence knowing that it was not in the best interest of the club. Prove it or accept that it is only your opinion.
I repeat that KD was a fantasy as we were never in a position to do the deal. It was inexcusable to have postured that we were in a position to buy. I agree that he is a fantasist and if there is a law against that lets prosecute him. It may also be though that he was convinced or guaranteed by others that he could raise the money and he was let down, there are many other alternatives and you don?t know what the reality was. Is anybody stupid enough to take a deal so far when there was no chance of it happening?
They have added the least value of any club board? Do you want me to give you any credibility?
Stop buying the product and the business will begin to suffer, that is the wonder of the market and the club fan relationship is no different. We stop going, the club starts to fail, they reduce the asking price so they can avoid going down, they find a bidder. Compare that with we whine but keep going, the board carry on as before with no reason to sell and nothing changes.
Andrew@ 404
Did man actually walk on the moon? Of course
Was JFK actually shot? Yes
Can you define the word "fact"? no Nobody can but I can differentiate between what is accepted as fact and what is patently opinion
Have you ever applied for Jury duty? No I¡¦m not eligible
If someone breaks in to a house which does not belong to them without permission and takes everything is this person a burglar? Or are they only a burglar when the police catch, hold and then charge them? The former
thanks in advance.
And your point is?
Phil @410 No response until you up your intelligence level a few leagues.
Derek @ 411
I am in the same position as all of us in that I can only raise an opinion (see, I admit it ?º I don¡¦t know in detail how the club is run and nobody outside of the club does. My opinion is that we have done badly as a club and I have given the reasons why and none of it needs negligence. I¡¦m sure that the board has made bad decisions as we all do but there is not a shred of evidence which show any likelihood that anybody could have done better with the same resources.
The point is criminal negligence, criminal activity, activities that were carried out in the knowledge that it was not in the clubs interest. What we can opinionise as incompetence yes but it isn¡¦t the same thing.
Kevin@412
I will still support Everton. All of these things may be inevitable eventually as the club continues its inexorable decline. The only possible solution is that we not only sell the club but that we sell to the right people with the right finances and my opinion is that there is no chance even if the board gives the club away
Did man actually walk on the moon? Of course
Was JFK actually shot? Yes
Can you define the word "fact"? no Nobody can but I can differentiate between what is accepted as fact and what is patently opinion
Have you ever applied for Jury duty? No I¡¦m not eligible
If someone breaks in to a house which does not belong to them without permission and takes everything is this person a burglar? Or are they only a burglar when the police catch, hold and then charge them? The former
thanks in advance.
And your point is?
Phil @410 No response until you up your intelligence level a few leagues.
Derek @ 411
I am in the same position as all of us in that I can only raise an opinion (see, I admit it ?º I don¡¦t know in detail how the club is run and nobody outside of the club does. My opinion is that we have done badly as a club and I have given the reasons why and none of it needs negligence. I¡¦m sure that the board has made bad decisions as we all do but there is not a shred of evidence which show any likelihood that anybody could have done better with the same resources.
The point is criminal negligence, criminal activity, activities that were carried out in the knowledge that it was not in the clubs interest. What we can opinionise as incompetence yes but it isn¡¦t the same thing.
Kevin@412
I will still support Everton. All of these things may be inevitable eventually as the club continues its inexorable decline. The only possible solution is that we not only sell the club but that we sell to the right people with the right finances and my opinion is that there is no chance even if the board gives the club away
It's like talking to a fucking wall; he still believes the £52m subsidy towards the cost of the stadium existed even though it has been proven beyond all doubt that it was nothing more than a VALUE for the benefit of the owners.
Martian has has more come- backs than Frank Sinatra since he retired undefeated, stop laughing at the back.
Batman? Not even a poor man?s Robin, more like the Joker if the retired undefeated quip is to believed; about as undefeated as Murdoch in the Leveson inquiry.
For Martian to attempt to pass off what has occurred as sensible discussion between adults is laughable; sense and sensibility ended when he said Kirkby was a good idea and all hope was lost when he revealed an embarrassing inability to understand the findings of the Government Inquiry into the Kirkby con. How anyone can misinterpret, ?the council is funding the stadium through the uplift in the value of its land? which will ?facilitate an increase in the value of the club for the benefit of its present owners? as proof that the £52m cross-subsidy existed and deduce that statement as an endorsement for, ?Tesco will make a contribution of £50m towards the cost of a new stadium.?
Some say ignorance is no excuse but I personally disagree, many are ignorant of what has passed for truth over the past twelve years and it probably comes as a shock to discover that you?ve been duped time and time again.
Some have the backbone and good grace to admit that they were wrong whilst others lack the testicular fortitude or intellect to realise when they have been hung, drawn and quartered.
It reminds me of talking to someone at the club; when you attempt to defend the indefensible you invariably end-up looking like a twat, but at least they get paid for doing so, unlike the trolls on the net who are just........
We have managed to establish some facts about Martian; he hasn?t a clue about Kenwright?s tenure; when faced with the facts about Kenwright?s tenure he attempts to (a) interpret them in a positive light or, if unable to do so, relies on (b) dismisses them as mere opinion and finally, like all know all?s, he hasn?t a clue about what?s happening in the City of Liverpool.
The one consolation surrounding Martian's unfortunate existence on TW is that people undecided on the performance of Bill, those who believe he's made a few mistakes, but who hasn't and at least he's a blue, can now see that he's a conniving con merchant and won't want to be associated with him nor anyone who wants to defend him and his entourage.
let?s end it there shall we, it?s like listening to Vicky Pollard.
Martian has has more come- backs than Frank Sinatra since he retired undefeated, stop laughing at the back.
Batman? Not even a poor man?s Robin, more like the Joker if the retired undefeated quip is to believed; about as undefeated as Murdoch in the Leveson inquiry.
For Martian to attempt to pass off what has occurred as sensible discussion between adults is laughable; sense and sensibility ended when he said Kirkby was a good idea and all hope was lost when he revealed an embarrassing inability to understand the findings of the Government Inquiry into the Kirkby con. How anyone can misinterpret, ?the council is funding the stadium through the uplift in the value of its land? which will ?facilitate an increase in the value of the club for the benefit of its present owners? as proof that the £52m cross-subsidy existed and deduce that statement as an endorsement for, ?Tesco will make a contribution of £50m towards the cost of a new stadium.?
Some say ignorance is no excuse but I personally disagree, many are ignorant of what has passed for truth over the past twelve years and it probably comes as a shock to discover that you?ve been duped time and time again.
Some have the backbone and good grace to admit that they were wrong whilst others lack the testicular fortitude or intellect to realise when they have been hung, drawn and quartered.
It reminds me of talking to someone at the club; when you attempt to defend the indefensible you invariably end-up looking like a twat, but at least they get paid for doing so, unlike the trolls on the net who are just........
We have managed to establish some facts about Martian; he hasn?t a clue about Kenwright?s tenure; when faced with the facts about Kenwright?s tenure he attempts to (a) interpret them in a positive light or, if unable to do so, relies on (b) dismisses them as mere opinion and finally, like all know all?s, he hasn?t a clue about what?s happening in the City of Liverpool.
The one consolation surrounding Martian's unfortunate existence on TW is that people undecided on the performance of Bill, those who believe he's made a few mistakes, but who hasn't and at least he's a blue, can now see that he's a conniving con merchant and won't want to be associated with him nor anyone who wants to defend him and his entourage.
let?s end it there shall we, it?s like listening to Vicky Pollard.
Martin,
Thanks for your reply. So no matter what this board gets up to, you will renew your season tickets, purchase the merchandise, sip on a Chang beer and queue for 30 min's at half time for a overpriced pie?
Thanks for your reply. So no matter what this board gets up to, you will renew your season tickets, purchase the merchandise, sip on a Chang beer and queue for 30 min's at half time for a overpriced pie?
Thanks Martin,
I would like to see the evidence for man walking on the moon please, if you believe it happened then please share with me how you have formed that opinion and on what basis. As you need irresputable facts in order to come to these conclusions what exactly are they?
Can you define the word "fact"? no Nobody can but I can differentiate between what is accepted as fact and what is patently opinion. Really? Nobody can???? have you ever heard of a dictionary?
The burglar question was a vague analogy as to what Bill has done with Everton, he has made decisions which have been detrimental to the club for which he is a majority shareholder and not the OWNER, however according to you this is opinion until he is shown to have been acting illegally? yet the burglar is a burglar without the law being enforced. very strange logic Martin.
The point was that I needed cheering up.
Thanks.
I would like to see the evidence for man walking on the moon please, if you believe it happened then please share with me how you have formed that opinion and on what basis. As you need irresputable facts in order to come to these conclusions what exactly are they?
Can you define the word "fact"? no Nobody can but I can differentiate between what is accepted as fact and what is patently opinion. Really? Nobody can???? have you ever heard of a dictionary?
The burglar question was a vague analogy as to what Bill has done with Everton, he has made decisions which have been detrimental to the club for which he is a majority shareholder and not the OWNER, however according to you this is opinion until he is shown to have been acting illegally? yet the burglar is a burglar without the law being enforced. very strange logic Martin.
The point was that I needed cheering up.
Thanks.
Martin
How rude!
What a crass thing to write in response; but I can't be insulted by someone I don't respect.
How rude!
What a crass thing to write in response; but I can't be insulted by someone I don't respect.
Phil, rudeness isn't one way. Stop the childish name calling and I'll treat you with respect.
There is a lot of passion coming through loud and clear and for those (like me) who regularly dip in to TW there are a few very interesting details elicited in this debate. The level of vitriol and abuse between fans of the one football team are a bit hard to take. Argument and debate is valuable but am I alone in thinking we could do without the name-calling?
Andrew Laird
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/apollohoax.html
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/apollohoax.html
Andrew
Whether something is fact is based on the likelihood of it being reality, truth or whatever. These are all subjective values and therefore fact itself is but if something has a very high likelihood of truth it is accepted as fact. In reality there is no such thing as fact.
Does a dictionary definition make something fact? Of course not. For example, you saying that BK has managed Everton with gross negligence is patently an opinion and a very weak one at that because you have no way of knowing how BK has run the club. If you make similar statements again with similarly little validation I?ll classify what you say more and more as opinion.
If Einstein told me that gravity bent light then I?d accept it as fact because he is an expert physicist (you are not a management expert) and it has been shown in experiment that light is bent in a gravity field. Is it ?fact?, no because there may be times unseen when it doesn?t.
I do not want irrefutable evidence, I want a higher assurance of likelihood than your just saying it?s so or any group of people saying so because numbers give no authority.
The burglar analogy isn?t what Bill has done with Everton. He has stolen nothing. The analogy is totally not applicable to what BK has done at EFC. If you give me evidence of stealing as in the case of a burglar stealing from a house for his own benefit I?ll accept what you say.
I?m glad something so simple and irrelevant has cheered you up mate. :-)
Whether something is fact is based on the likelihood of it being reality, truth or whatever. These are all subjective values and therefore fact itself is but if something has a very high likelihood of truth it is accepted as fact. In reality there is no such thing as fact.
Does a dictionary definition make something fact? Of course not. For example, you saying that BK has managed Everton with gross negligence is patently an opinion and a very weak one at that because you have no way of knowing how BK has run the club. If you make similar statements again with similarly little validation I?ll classify what you say more and more as opinion.
If Einstein told me that gravity bent light then I?d accept it as fact because he is an expert physicist (you are not a management expert) and it has been shown in experiment that light is bent in a gravity field. Is it ?fact?, no because there may be times unseen when it doesn?t.
I do not want irrefutable evidence, I want a higher assurance of likelihood than your just saying it?s so or any group of people saying so because numbers give no authority.
The burglar analogy isn?t what Bill has done with Everton. He has stolen nothing. The analogy is totally not applicable to what BK has done at EFC. If you give me evidence of stealing as in the case of a burglar stealing from a house for his own benefit I?ll accept what you say.
I?m glad something so simple and irrelevant has cheered you up mate. :-)
Gavin@424
I couldn't agree more and I'll repeat. Once it resorts to name calling then
a) you have lost the argument
or
b) you don't have the intelligence to be in it anyway
Does it affect me? Not even a little bit.
I couldn't agree more and I'll repeat. Once it resorts to name calling then
a) you have lost the argument
or
b) you don't have the intelligence to be in it anyway
Does it affect me? Not even a little bit.
Name-calling? Is that your opinion Martin, or a fact?
And, again, would you like the link to the YouTube BK video?
And, again, would you like the link to the YouTube BK video?
Kevin
I live in Horsham and work away on 6/2 rotation. I have an autistic daughter who's taken up most of my spare time and I can't get to many games now. Perhaps I'm practicing what I preach in, as a customer can, refusing to buy such a poor product.
Phil, make your point please.
I live in Horsham and work away on 6/2 rotation. I have an autistic daughter who's taken up most of my spare time and I can't get to many games now. Perhaps I'm practicing what I preach in, as a customer can, refusing to buy such a poor product.
Phil, make your point please.
Colin, is your excuse a) or b)? As they aren't mutually exclusive I think it's likely to be both.
Fuck me I thought this site was about our beloved team but now all it seems to be about is Martin's menstrual cycle.
I have to admit I got swept up in the romantic image of a Chairman who's a fan (which no-one doubts he is) and someone who had the same ambitions as the rest of us. However, after seeing his performance 'off script' in front of the Blue Union and some of the minuted responses to what seem like legitimate questions, I have come to the conclusion that he holds the club as a plaything to mention at dinner parties and radio interviews.
He holds the fans in contempt as he feels he is vastly superior and he hasn't a fucking clue about the commerical aspects of today's football. He won't let us go bankrupt because he keeps the purse strings as tight as a duck's arsehole but he also won't allow us to expand and grow as a club. He may well oversee us relegated when he runs out of players to sell and he may win a cup if we're very very lucky.
That's just my opinion and I'm not stating it as fact so no-one has the get their tampon in a tizzy over it. But on the bright side, we're not being run by a Yank with NO CLUE about the game we're playing on the pitch; we don't have a hole in the ground that was supposed to be a state-of-the-art stadium, and our club has shown no indication that one day they will nail their colours to the mast in support of a bog-eyed goofy racist twat.
I have to admit I got swept up in the romantic image of a Chairman who's a fan (which no-one doubts he is) and someone who had the same ambitions as the rest of us. However, after seeing his performance 'off script' in front of the Blue Union and some of the minuted responses to what seem like legitimate questions, I have come to the conclusion that he holds the club as a plaything to mention at dinner parties and radio interviews.
He holds the fans in contempt as he feels he is vastly superior and he hasn't a fucking clue about the commerical aspects of today's football. He won't let us go bankrupt because he keeps the purse strings as tight as a duck's arsehole but he also won't allow us to expand and grow as a club. He may well oversee us relegated when he runs out of players to sell and he may win a cup if we're very very lucky.
That's just my opinion and I'm not stating it as fact so no-one has the get their tampon in a tizzy over it. But on the bright side, we're not being run by a Yank with NO CLUE about the game we're playing on the pitch; we don't have a hole in the ground that was supposed to be a state-of-the-art stadium, and our club has shown no indication that one day they will nail their colours to the mast in support of a bog-eyed goofy racist twat.
....additionally I do not support this current Tory led government and have thought their 'back to work' scheme exposes all things about the Tories that I hate but I must admit if it can get Martin back to work - even if it is at Iceland for 6 weeks intensive shelf stacking - then I may well change my opinion
Right, Martin
To exemplify my puzzlement at your stance... I offered as a fact, earlier: "Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing"
You replied "every point that you state as fact is an opinion." ? But EFC have, in fact, won nothing under Bill Kenwright's leadership!
I feel we have gone as far, usefully, as we can go this thread ? as do you; I have more important things in my life... albeit, after family, EFC top the list
To exemplify my puzzlement at your stance... I offered as a fact, earlier: "Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing"
You replied "every point that you state as fact is an opinion." ? But EFC have, in fact, won nothing under Bill Kenwright's leadership!
I feel we have gone as far, usefully, as we can go this thread ? as do you; I have more important things in my life... albeit, after family, EFC top the list
Joe, I think you will find that that website constitutes an opinion and not fact. I have no opinion on whether the moon landing occurred or not but seeing as Martin has taken the floor I just wanted to know what he thought from his intriguing philosophical stance.
Martin,
What is the point of having validity when you just deny it and that facts are not based in reality and actually do not exist!!? How do you know that I am not an expert on management? Is that not a sweeping judgement formed on my replies so far on an Everton website?
So your name is not Martin at all? there is no evidence whatsoever other than you were told by your parent/s and it was written down on your passport and birth certificate, just opinions of course from other people, but who knows? Who can say if you really are Martin at all??
I didn't just run out of loo roll, the roll wasn't really there in the first place? Are you the new Kant? Only my opinion as facts don't exist.....
I would like to buy you a beer, shot, juice whatever your tipple and have a long chat..... What is the point of science?? There are no answers to be found only opinions.... So many questions.
Martin,
What is the point of having validity when you just deny it and that facts are not based in reality and actually do not exist!!? How do you know that I am not an expert on management? Is that not a sweeping judgement formed on my replies so far on an Everton website?
So your name is not Martin at all? there is no evidence whatsoever other than you were told by your parent/s and it was written down on your passport and birth certificate, just opinions of course from other people, but who knows? Who can say if you really are Martin at all??
I didn't just run out of loo roll, the roll wasn't really there in the first place? Are you the new Kant? Only my opinion as facts don't exist.....
I would like to buy you a beer, shot, juice whatever your tipple and have a long chat..... What is the point of science?? There are no answers to be found only opinions.... So many questions.
Can we also clarify that we have in fact won nothing under BK's directorship and it does not count if David Moyes or Phil Neville is on the winning team on Question of Sport
Martian,
You said that you were retiring because you could no longer respond and here you are; again and again and again - obviously not a man of his word, not a man who can be trusted; I beginning to see the synergy on which your enthusiasm for the present custodians is based.
It is said that even a broken clock is right twice a day yet I must admit you?re presenting an admirable challenge to that belief. You strut about saying name calling means you have lost the argument but it is clear that whatever argument you had has been demolished in the most emphatic manner possible.
This ceased to be an adult discussion when you dismissed all the evidence in Kirkby. It?s like talking to a five year old; facts are dismissed because you have no answers. Once again, Bill Kenwright is a proven liar. Everton misled their fans and shareholders by stating that they were receiving an enabling cross-subsidy towards the cost of the £130m stadium. It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that this £52m did not exist in the form of a cost subsidy. Tesco admitted it, Knowsley council admitted it; it was a value, a value, that the planning inspector reported to the Secretary of State was for the benefit of the owners.
You may not have had the pleasure of putting questions to Bill Kenwright, but long before the Government Inquiry extracted the truth behind Deception Kirkby I asked Bill Kenwright for answers, here?s the verbatim extract of what he said to me at the 2008 EGM:
As with the club, you simply will not accept when you?ve been found out; that?s why you?re a soft twat Martian and no other reason.
Facts are facts, people base their opinions on them, you appear to base yours on the bullshit that emanates from the club on a regular basis.
In my opinion, anyone supporting these lying amateurs isn?t an Evertonian because they?re supporting the slow but inevitable destruction of the club.
You said that you were retiring because you could no longer respond and here you are; again and again and again - obviously not a man of his word, not a man who can be trusted; I beginning to see the synergy on which your enthusiasm for the present custodians is based.
It is said that even a broken clock is right twice a day yet I must admit you?re presenting an admirable challenge to that belief. You strut about saying name calling means you have lost the argument but it is clear that whatever argument you had has been demolished in the most emphatic manner possible.
This ceased to be an adult discussion when you dismissed all the evidence in Kirkby. It?s like talking to a five year old; facts are dismissed because you have no answers. Once again, Bill Kenwright is a proven liar. Everton misled their fans and shareholders by stating that they were receiving an enabling cross-subsidy towards the cost of the £130m stadium. It has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that this £52m did not exist in the form of a cost subsidy. Tesco admitted it, Knowsley council admitted it; it was a value, a value, that the planning inspector reported to the Secretary of State was for the benefit of the owners.
You may not have had the pleasure of putting questions to Bill Kenwright, but long before the Government Inquiry extracted the truth behind Deception Kirkby I asked Bill Kenwright for answers, here?s the verbatim extract of what he said to me at the 2008 EGM:
Me: Mr. Chairman, aren't these figures a far cry from being effectively free, or even close to the claim by Sir Terry Leahy during the ballot, when with [...] accuracy, he stated that Everton would be obtaining a £150m stadium. I'm just reminding you of that £150m because that's what it looks like it's going to cost. A £150m stadium for an investment of around £35m. Do you Mr. Kenwright, believe that you still hold a mandate when it is clear that information given to obtain that mandate was inaccurate?Remember what Patrick Clarkson QC, Counsel for Tesco, said on the first day of the public inquiry? That it was never their case that this was an enabling development despite the phrase being used on over thirty occasions in their planning statement?
BK: I don't believe that was part of any mandate. I'll take you back a little bit to how this started because as I told the AGM last year. It was at the Man City game four years ago and we lost 5-1. Terry Leahy was on the same train as me and he said is there anything I can do to help out? I said we've got to find finance from somewhere. He [...? ...] over the next two years. Tesco came forward with 30? possible locations with LCC and they got nowhere. They were told, in no uncertain terms, there's no will to support a stadium and retail development. Just over two years ago now, he quoted those same figures to me but it was actually, if I remember, a £150m stadium: £50M ENABLING FUNDING; BETWEEN £30M, £40M, £50M FROM US; £50M OF VALUE IN THE SITE, in the infrastructure, in the fact that we would get no developers profit and because of Tesco?s involvement. When I saw the first designs I was, no I want more, I want this, I want that and that's why it started going up. [...?..] another 10,000 seats which will cost another £25 m. I've never doubted Terry Leahy's integrity or his support for this football club.
As with the club, you simply will not accept when you?ve been found out; that?s why you?re a soft twat Martian and no other reason.
Facts are facts, people base their opinions on them, you appear to base yours on the bullshit that emanates from the club on a regular basis.
In my opinion, anyone supporting these lying amateurs isn?t an Evertonian because they?re supporting the slow but inevitable destruction of the club.
Martin.
I'm firmly of the opinion that your sole aim throughout this thread was to goad a prominent KEIOC member and as many BU supporters into a slanging match in the hope they would resort to insults and foul mouthed retorts.
I imagine we will see carefully edited sections of these discussions again at some point, although not necesarily onTW, with the intention of portraying that (probably the most loyal and dedicated) section of our fanbase as salivating, rabid dogs.
I don't just use TW, I live in the city and I move in many social circles that involve Evertonians. Some are match goers, some aren't. Almost everywhere I turn I'm seeing people just as concerned as me, Colin, Tom and everybody else on this thread who started out this discussion in good faith.
Thankfully the only thing you have managed is to make the "Best interest at heart", "Safe pair of hands" argument look even more ridiculous than it did before.
Cheers Comrade!!!
I'm firmly of the opinion that your sole aim throughout this thread was to goad a prominent KEIOC member and as many BU supporters into a slanging match in the hope they would resort to insults and foul mouthed retorts.
I imagine we will see carefully edited sections of these discussions again at some point, although not necesarily onTW, with the intention of portraying that (probably the most loyal and dedicated) section of our fanbase as salivating, rabid dogs.
I don't just use TW, I live in the city and I move in many social circles that involve Evertonians. Some are match goers, some aren't. Almost everywhere I turn I'm seeing people just as concerned as me, Colin, Tom and everybody else on this thread who started out this discussion in good faith.
Thankfully the only thing you have managed is to make the "Best interest at heart", "Safe pair of hands" argument look even more ridiculous than it did before.
Cheers Comrade!!!
Michael,
'But there is an alternative reality which is that in 2012, with clubs competing as businesses and the majority of the revenue being hogged by just a few clubs, that a small club from a deprived area of a city that has been in managed decline for decades with its population being distributed to overflow towns and with no brand image just cannot be as successful as some of us demand.'
If this idiot calls Everton a small club once more, do us all a favour and ban him.
'But there is an alternative reality which is that in 2012, with clubs competing as businesses and the majority of the revenue being hogged by just a few clubs, that a small club from a deprived area of a city that has been in managed decline for decades with its population being distributed to overflow towns and with no brand image just cannot be as successful as some of us demand.'
If this idiot calls Everton a small club once more, do us all a favour and ban him.
Martin #401 ? as you've used the argument of opinion on far too many occasions in this thread, your statement "By the fact that they were not demonstrating means that they don't agree with the protesters." ? well it plainly doesn't! All it IMPLIES is that those that didn't take part in the protests either chose not to or were not at the ground to do so... and absolutely nothing else. It's supposition to make any other claim.
Martin,
I think the most recent post from Colin Fitzpatrick puts the final nail in the coffin for your lame arguments. If you read Bill Kenwright's response to Colin's probing question, you will see the man for what he is ? a complete and utter fantasist and a gobshite to boot.
Whenever he opens that slack jaw of his, he brings further embarrassment to Everton, the silly name dropping at every opportunity. Do you seriously think that the likes of Green, Staveley, Leon Angel etc etc haven't got onto his well worn ruse?
I think the most recent post from Colin Fitzpatrick puts the final nail in the coffin for your lame arguments. If you read Bill Kenwright's response to Colin's probing question, you will see the man for what he is ? a complete and utter fantasist and a gobshite to boot.
Whenever he opens that slack jaw of his, he brings further embarrassment to Everton, the silly name dropping at every opportunity. Do you seriously think that the likes of Green, Staveley, Leon Angel etc etc haven't got onto his well worn ruse?
I can only say, Mr Ferguson, if the alternative to Kenwright is you and your disciples, then long live Bill Kenwright!
Martin; You say we did bad as a club, that was not the question, which was...
Kenwright? Pass or Fail ? the boy dun good or dun bad.
The semantics / legal niceities of incompetance Vs negligence is just smoke and mirrors... what was your original point / reply to the OP.I think that para 2 & 3 of your 799 sum it up.
We punch above our weight (all hail Moyes and the BoD) and a tighter fiscal version of the status quo coupled with a cut in players wages to fund ground improvements is the (only?) way to go.
On a lighter note, re what is legal and what is not. (In Jersey) Everything's legal as long as you don't get caught... Bob Dylan in his Travelling Wilbury guise ? Tweeter and the monkey man.
I get dizzy going round and round so I will try and retire from this thread. (Undefeated or no, not for me to say or actually care about too much...)
Kenwright? Pass or Fail ? the boy dun good or dun bad.
The semantics / legal niceities of incompetance Vs negligence is just smoke and mirrors... what was your original point / reply to the OP.I think that para 2 & 3 of your 799 sum it up.
We punch above our weight (all hail Moyes and the BoD) and a tighter fiscal version of the status quo coupled with a cut in players wages to fund ground improvements is the (only?) way to go.
On a lighter note, re what is legal and what is not. (In Jersey) Everything's legal as long as you don't get caught... Bob Dylan in his Travelling Wilbury guise ? Tweeter and the monkey man.
I get dizzy going round and round so I will try and retire from this thread. (Undefeated or no, not for me to say or actually care about too much...)
I think you may have retired from the argument with a firm boot up the backside Martin !! God bring back Neil Pearce.
Martin, you say "I may not respond to any points which are not relevant to the points I make" but the points you are making are just diversionary tactics (malfeasance and criminal activity) from the points in question.
And at least from your post #401, we now know that you live in an alternative reality.
And at least from your post #401, we now know that you live in an alternative reality.
Phil @ 433
The fact that EFC has won nothing under BK is irrelevant. Winning trophies isn?t the only measure of success especially for underfunded clubs so correct, it is your opinion that it is.
Andrew@434
You are patently not an expert at management
Stephen@465
Stephen, if you mean Colin Fitzpatrick as the prominent KEIOC member and some other are the ?prominent BU members? then they need goading as they demean their respective organizations. Colin is foul mouthed and patiently of fairly low intelligence. He is an agenda driven activist of the worst kind who doesn?t understand simple economics.
You won?t see anything said on here reprinted as I?m just a normal fan and I disagree with your assertion that you are probably the most loyal and dedicated section of the fan base. That is as fantasist a notion as Kaiser Bill could dream up. Of course everybody is as concerned as you but some of us don?t believe that simply throwing the board and management out will solve our structural defects or even that they can be thrown out. The investor that could do this does not exist whatever price BK asks for the club.
Gavin@473
I disagree; those that didn?t join the protesters didn?t support them enough to do so. The protesters are a minority group amongst Evertonians who in general obviously share their concerns (who wouldn?t) only the means of where we go from here.
Peter@476
Colin?s post was just more of the same bile. He tries to twist anything that BK says into some evidence of criminal activity which it plainly isn?t. I?ve read the report and it doesn?t say what Colin twists it into. That BK is a fantasist is not evidence of malfeasance or of acting against the interest of the club. The alternative reality (as he is seen by most in the game) is that he?s a bit of a jovial buffoon who is doing a good job who doesn?t like the spite he gets from the activists. I can see now why he stopped the AGMs, I don?t agree with him but I can see why.
Richard@ 513
I work in Kazakhstan where we are 5 hours ahead. I disappear between 1400 hrs your time and 0200hrs your time and I do other things than post on TW in between. So, no running off with tail between my legs; I?ll be discussing the issue until somebody can answer my two questions which you all seem to be completely incapable of so far. All of the responses so far have been to try to convince me what a bad guy BK is. I agreed with that in my first post. It is irrelevant. What is patently clear is that most of you are have not a clue about what my position is or what I have asked.
Eric@517
Answer my questions please
Guys, I work in an office with 4 keen match going Evertonians. I ask if they look in here and they all have the same opinion. I hear phrases like ?headbangers?, ?Nutters?, etc. I personally don?t agree with that and whatever you may think I?m not of the opposite extreme and neither am I a blind supporter of the current board. The vast majority of Evertonians are of neither extreme and they are not stupid.
The fact that EFC has won nothing under BK is irrelevant. Winning trophies isn?t the only measure of success especially for underfunded clubs so correct, it is your opinion that it is.
Andrew@434
You are patently not an expert at management
Stephen@465
Stephen, if you mean Colin Fitzpatrick as the prominent KEIOC member and some other are the ?prominent BU members? then they need goading as they demean their respective organizations. Colin is foul mouthed and patiently of fairly low intelligence. He is an agenda driven activist of the worst kind who doesn?t understand simple economics.
You won?t see anything said on here reprinted as I?m just a normal fan and I disagree with your assertion that you are probably the most loyal and dedicated section of the fan base. That is as fantasist a notion as Kaiser Bill could dream up. Of course everybody is as concerned as you but some of us don?t believe that simply throwing the board and management out will solve our structural defects or even that they can be thrown out. The investor that could do this does not exist whatever price BK asks for the club.
Gavin@473
I disagree; those that didn?t join the protesters didn?t support them enough to do so. The protesters are a minority group amongst Evertonians who in general obviously share their concerns (who wouldn?t) only the means of where we go from here.
Peter@476
Colin?s post was just more of the same bile. He tries to twist anything that BK says into some evidence of criminal activity which it plainly isn?t. I?ve read the report and it doesn?t say what Colin twists it into. That BK is a fantasist is not evidence of malfeasance or of acting against the interest of the club. The alternative reality (as he is seen by most in the game) is that he?s a bit of a jovial buffoon who is doing a good job who doesn?t like the spite he gets from the activists. I can see now why he stopped the AGMs, I don?t agree with him but I can see why.
Richard@ 513
I work in Kazakhstan where we are 5 hours ahead. I disappear between 1400 hrs your time and 0200hrs your time and I do other things than post on TW in between. So, no running off with tail between my legs; I?ll be discussing the issue until somebody can answer my two questions which you all seem to be completely incapable of so far. All of the responses so far have been to try to convince me what a bad guy BK is. I agreed with that in my first post. It is irrelevant. What is patently clear is that most of you are have not a clue about what my position is or what I have asked.
Eric@517
Answer my questions please
Guys, I work in an office with 4 keen match going Evertonians. I ask if they look in here and they all have the same opinion. I hear phrases like ?headbangers?, ?Nutters?, etc. I personally don?t agree with that and whatever you may think I?m not of the opposite extreme and neither am I a blind supporter of the current board. The vast majority of Evertonians are of neither extreme and they are not stupid.
Martin. You keep harping on that people haven't answered your questions. Seems you haven't answered anything either. Just a load of shite to be honest.
I worked out in the Caspian for a number of years from just as the Russians pulled out. The thing we had to be careful of was the cheap vodka and crap beer EFES!! Obviously you and your 4 keen match going Evertonian mates didn't heed the warnings !
You say you are not a blind supporter of the board and in some responses actually slag them[ however, in my opinion, you are a fantasist and a total Kenwright supporter. They used to have an asylum in Bautino in the old days. If those 4 pricks of mates of yours get some time off you might suggest they check in there.
I worked out in the Caspian for a number of years from just as the Russians pulled out. The thing we had to be careful of was the cheap vodka and crap beer EFES!! Obviously you and your 4 keen match going Evertonian mates didn't heed the warnings !
You say you are not a blind supporter of the board and in some responses actually slag them[ however, in my opinion, you are a fantasist and a total Kenwright supporter. They used to have an asylum in Bautino in the old days. If those 4 pricks of mates of yours get some time off you might suggest they check in there.
John, the questions were very clear and it is also very clear that neither has been answered. Your response adds nothing to the debate and you tend to confirm what my mates (great Evertonians) say about the site.
I assume you left Kazakhstan when they found that they didn't need expat labourers.
I assume you left Kazakhstan when they found that they didn't need expat labourers.
Martin
Your put downs are more than a match for the insults, You clearly dont intend to be anybodys whipping boy.
But its becoming impossible to follow what started out as a really good thread.
You are now responding to insults rather than answering questions.
I dont blame you for standing your corner, but some of us want /need to know as much as we can.
Pull away from this "retired undefeated shite" Paul, makes you sound smug and ignorant.
Get your two questions back up there on a seperate thread - JUST the questions . and lets see people respond with JUST the answers.
Btw Paul ; I didnt take part in the protests I decided to observe (I knew there would be conflicting reports) what I did see was hundreds of people applauding the marchers as they went past, like me they didnt protest but they DID whole heartedly support.
Times valuable, many people work Saturdays or have other commitments, please dont make the mistake that anybody who didnt protest, didnt support. If the protest were held INSIDE the ground, you`d have seen a massive increase in numbers.
Give the guys at BU due credit, they are trying to get their message across without causing disruption to the team or the manager.
Your put downs are more than a match for the insults, You clearly dont intend to be anybodys whipping boy.
But its becoming impossible to follow what started out as a really good thread.
You are now responding to insults rather than answering questions.
I dont blame you for standing your corner, but some of us want /need to know as much as we can.
Pull away from this "retired undefeated shite" Paul, makes you sound smug and ignorant.
Get your two questions back up there on a seperate thread - JUST the questions . and lets see people respond with JUST the answers.
Btw Paul ; I didnt take part in the protests I decided to observe (I knew there would be conflicting reports) what I did see was hundreds of people applauding the marchers as they went past, like me they didnt protest but they DID whole heartedly support.
Times valuable, many people work Saturdays or have other commitments, please dont make the mistake that anybody who didnt protest, didnt support. If the protest were held INSIDE the ground, you`d have seen a massive increase in numbers.
Give the guys at BU due credit, they are trying to get their message across without causing disruption to the team or the manager.
Martin, you are the only person that has dreamt up malfeasance and criminal activity accusations.
Your questions are irrelevent to the topic and are just thrown in to create a tangent along which to draw meaningful discussion of the problem and for you to continue to harp on about.
I bet you're a quantity surveyor.
Your questions are irrelevent to the topic and are just thrown in to create a tangent along which to draw meaningful discussion of the problem and for you to continue to harp on about.
I bet you're a quantity surveyor.
Martin, You've been leathered all over place in this thread and completly owned by the likes of Colin so give it up.
Do what you said you were doing much earlier and 'retire' before you heap even more embarrassment on yourself.
Can someone PLEASE confiscate his shovel?
Do what you said you were doing much earlier and 'retire' before you heap even more embarrassment on yourself.
Can someone PLEASE confiscate his shovel?
Martin,
Your questions are a complete irrelevance, meaningless and of no real interest to anyone. Legal or not, failure is failure.... you're only gripe appears to be that you cant handle the fact that others realised before you.
The facts and points you continue to skirt around have all been stated and well documented.
Colin does not suffer fools, nor does he have to. His solid north-Liverpool roots come to the fore when people take the piss, as you've attempted to do throughout this thread. You're references to his intelligence are laughable given the content and quality of the respective posts on here. He can quote chapter and verse onall the real issues you seem to have little or no knowledge yet feel able to comment on without ANY references or qualification. He delivered much of the evidence againt DK at the inquiry, and was commended by the presiding authorities after tying the club officials and experts in knots on several occasions, and for the most comprehensive input into the whole proceedings. Not bad for part-time enthusiasts taking on fulltime paid experts representing multi-million/billion pound businesses. I'll not embarrass him too much but suffice to say that he is a very highly qualified person of massive experience in business and engineering. Meanwhile your Kazak situation renders you a very distant observer who rarely attends.
I think the vast majority on here would be in no doubt as to who has the greater knowledge and view of our club's predicament.
As far as there not being any mechanisms ..........
Your questions are a complete irrelevance, meaningless and of no real interest to anyone. Legal or not, failure is failure.... you're only gripe appears to be that you cant handle the fact that others realised before you.
The facts and points you continue to skirt around have all been stated and well documented.
Colin does not suffer fools, nor does he have to. His solid north-Liverpool roots come to the fore when people take the piss, as you've attempted to do throughout this thread. You're references to his intelligence are laughable given the content and quality of the respective posts on here. He can quote chapter and verse onall the real issues you seem to have little or no knowledge yet feel able to comment on without ANY references or qualification. He delivered much of the evidence againt DK at the inquiry, and was commended by the presiding authorities after tying the club officials and experts in knots on several occasions, and for the most comprehensive input into the whole proceedings. Not bad for part-time enthusiasts taking on fulltime paid experts representing multi-million/billion pound businesses. I'll not embarrass him too much but suffice to say that he is a very highly qualified person of massive experience in business and engineering. Meanwhile your Kazak situation renders you a very distant observer who rarely attends.
I think the vast majority on here would be in no doubt as to who has the greater knowledge and view of our club's predicament.
As far as there not being any mechanisms ..........
Eric and Ste, I've been floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee and still untouched but you guys are so propagandised and insensitive that you can't see it.
As the very astute Mr David Wilson notes, what has happened now is that the thread has become a personal attack on me so I'm reacting in kind and having fun. I will try to do as he says and post my questions perhaps individually but in truth I don't know how.
From Bungalow Bill's Batman
As the very astute Mr David Wilson notes, what has happened now is that the thread has become a personal attack on me so I'm reacting in kind and having fun. I will try to do as he says and post my questions perhaps individually but in truth I don't know how.
From Bungalow Bill's Batman
Sorry Martin
For some reason I got my post to you and emails to a guy at work kinda mixed up and decided to call you Paul half way through my post.
For some reason I got my post to you and emails to a guy at work kinda mixed up and decided to call you Paul half way through my post.
No problem David
I think you're as deluded as your hero Martin!!!
Come on, Martin...
"Andrew@434
You are patently not an expert at management"
Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true now does it? You keep repeating this mantra but believe it useful to contradict yourself when it suits. You certainly float like a butterfly, Martin.
"Andrew@434
You are patently not an expert at management"
Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true now does it? You keep repeating this mantra but believe it useful to contradict yourself when it suits. You certainly float like a butterfly, Martin.
Oh dear, Martin
"Phil, every point that you state as fact is an opinion"
and now...
"The fact that EFC has won nothing under BK is irrelevant"
So you agree with me that "Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing" is a fact and not an opinion - at last???
"Phil, every point that you state as fact is an opinion"
and now...
"The fact that EFC has won nothing under BK is irrelevant"
So you agree with me that "Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing" is a fact and not an opinion - at last???
Martin Mason.
Are you MBE's love child by any chance...
Are you MBE's love child by any chance...
Phil@549, of course it's fact. I just said it is irrelevant because winning trophies is not the only measure of success. You're patently amongst the bottom feeders of soccer fans, a pot hunter. I don't need my team to win trophies to lift my own esteem, I have a life and I'm not that miserable. All I expect is that they perform to their potential. I'm afraid you just don't understand what that potential is.
Richard @543 Thank you, I'm honoured to be classed along with Comrade Bill in terms of delusion.
Andrew @545 Again thank you, I'm pretty nimble on my feet and pretty handsome with it. Unfair really being so smart as well.
It's great how you guys are now complimenting me. I get a bit sensitive when people are beastly to me.
Richard @543 Thank you, I'm honoured to be classed along with Comrade Bill in terms of delusion.
Andrew @545 Again thank you, I'm pretty nimble on my feet and pretty handsome with it. Unfair really being so smart as well.
It's great how you guys are now complimenting me. I get a bit sensitive when people are beastly to me.
So if I have this right.
According to Martin Malfeasance ('floats like a idiot and stings like a moron') Dave Wilson is.. 'astute'.
But Colin Fitz is a bit of a divvy who doesn't get it?
Sooooooooooo glad I didn't get involved in THIS one!
According to Martin Malfeasance ('floats like a idiot and stings like a moron') Dave Wilson is.. 'astute'.
But Colin Fitz is a bit of a divvy who doesn't get it?
Sooooooooooo glad I didn't get involved in THIS one!
Oh dear, Martin
Resorting to insults - a pot hunter?
`pon my soul!
Grow up son and put your shovel back in the shed
Resorting to insults - a pot hunter?
`pon my soul!
Grow up son and put your shovel back in the shed
Martin,
Regarding protest attendance, you simply can't make the claim of the non-attendance at a protest being a distinct for or against it. I have family members who haven't been able to go on the marches through family commitments but they are strongly in favour. I also know from being on the protests of the round of applause gained at the Wilmslow by fans who were also not on the march ? QED: in favour, but not taking part.
Flim-flam simply isn't an argument ? it's supposition at best.
The success of a sports team is in winning things and there is a clear differential between that and a successful business... which in any case too Everton simply isn't, as evidenced in their annual returns (which are in the public domain).
What credence does an argument that the club is successful ? having won nothing since 1995 and simply maintaining a presence in the league, together with very poor and gradually degenrative accounts ? constitute?
Regarding protest attendance, you simply can't make the claim of the non-attendance at a protest being a distinct for or against it. I have family members who haven't been able to go on the marches through family commitments but they are strongly in favour. I also know from being on the protests of the round of applause gained at the Wilmslow by fans who were also not on the march ? QED: in favour, but not taking part.
Flim-flam simply isn't an argument ? it's supposition at best.
The success of a sports team is in winning things and there is a clear differential between that and a successful business... which in any case too Everton simply isn't, as evidenced in their annual returns (which are in the public domain).
What credence does an argument that the club is successful ? having won nothing since 1995 and simply maintaining a presence in the league, together with very poor and gradually degenrative accounts ? constitute?
Hi EJ
Wondered where you were - have you read the goings-on? - if not, catch up, it's a fascinating, funny and, at times,Pythonesque bunfight
Wondered where you were - have you read the goings-on? - if not, catch up, it's a fascinating, funny and, at times,Pythonesque bunfight
Phil, I've been following the thread and (like Frank Costanza) shouting..SERENITY NOW!!
Been following this myself all week, its like Hollyoaks on crack.
Paul there is only one person taking crack in this episode.
Can you get crack in Kazakhstan???
Can you get crack in Kazakhstan???
Paul@564
There's piles of vertical crack.
Philthy@558
You bloody cheeky young pot hunter. I'm old enough to be your old man, probably yer old grandad as I have you at school age.
There's piles of vertical crack.
Philthy@558
You bloody cheeky young pot hunter. I'm old enough to be your old man, probably yer old grandad as I have you at school age.
Eugene
I`m SURE if you post on here long enough SOMEBODY will say something like
"That Eugene knows his footie" or " Youre right there Eugene"
Who knows, somebody may even call you "astute" - Laughs like a fucken drain as he types.
Your turn will come . .I`m SURE it will
I`m SURE if you post on here long enough SOMEBODY will say something like
"That Eugene knows his footie" or " Youre right there Eugene"
Who knows, somebody may even call you "astute" - Laughs like a fucken drain as he types.
Your turn will come . .I`m SURE it will
- SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!
Gavin
Use logic mate, for every person who supported the protest but couldn?t go there could also have been somebody who didn?t support the protest and didn?t go. However you spin it, the BU and the protests have a very low support amongst Evertonians and they are having no noticeable effect on my superhero. I personally don?t know any Evertonians who support what they represent.
I haven?t seen anybody yet who has genuinely been able to refute any of the points I?ve raised although I?ve seen plenty of froth so who?s dishing out the flim-flam. What everybody has tried to show is faults in BK, I?ve never denied these.
I absolutely disagree that the only measure of success is winning things because success is different things to different teams. For Chelsea and Man United it is winning not only domestically but in Europe, that is success because that is needed to fund their expenditure. For about 99% of the clubs in England it would be ever getting into the EPL. For some teams it is staying in the EPL and for me EFC are in that position. For me, finishing 4th is a fantastic achievement. Statistically EFC have only a miniscule chance of winning a trophy. That is 0% of winning the league and only a fluke chance of winning a cup.
For sure, EFC is a poor business but not because it hasn?t been managed successfully. It is poor because we have spent money on playing resources to achieve a perhaps unsustainable league position at the expense of infrastructure. The ultimate sin of course was a lot of it was money we didn?t have...
Use logic mate, for every person who supported the protest but couldn?t go there could also have been somebody who didn?t support the protest and didn?t go. However you spin it, the BU and the protests have a very low support amongst Evertonians and they are having no noticeable effect on my superhero. I personally don?t know any Evertonians who support what they represent.
I haven?t seen anybody yet who has genuinely been able to refute any of the points I?ve raised although I?ve seen plenty of froth so who?s dishing out the flim-flam. What everybody has tried to show is faults in BK, I?ve never denied these.
I absolutely disagree that the only measure of success is winning things because success is different things to different teams. For Chelsea and Man United it is winning not only domestically but in Europe, that is success because that is needed to fund their expenditure. For about 99% of the clubs in England it would be ever getting into the EPL. For some teams it is staying in the EPL and for me EFC are in that position. For me, finishing 4th is a fantastic achievement. Statistically EFC have only a miniscule chance of winning a trophy. That is 0% of winning the league and only a fluke chance of winning a cup.
For sure, EFC is a poor business but not because it hasn?t been managed successfully. It is poor because we have spent money on playing resources to achieve a perhaps unsustainable league position at the expense of infrastructure. The ultimate sin of course was a lot of it was money we didn?t have...
Martin so you concede that its supposition on assigning the percentile of agreement is different to attendance on the protests?
Success as a label to a sports team is a simplistic label and as such its easy to determine its meaning. The context of success over retention of status/membership of a league is different and I contest that this isn't success the same way that achieving a fourth place isn't winning, its achieving fourth place and again I'd refer to that being a statement of the business not the sports team itself, although they are symbiotic they are measured very differently. The lack of revenue stream expansion and expansion of the business in a coherent manner i.e. across the board and not just targeted at the playing squad does show poor management in exactly the same way that the economics of a monoculture business failing when its single line/product fails. Everton is failing as a business because the income streams haven't been expanded to include non match day activities and the reinvestment across infrastructure to name just a single element of that business being just one component part. Growing the business and equally shrinking it is solely down to the chairman and his board with the actual undertaking of their strategy being physically ran by his CEO and support staff. In all lines there have been clear and distinct failures:
Marketing is dreadful in comparison with the club's peer group
Sponsorship deals are way below the club's peer group
Non-match day activities beyond local non income generating community work appear non existent and thus negligible in terms of the accounts
Investment in the infrastructure of the stadium itself has been non-existent beyond a coat of paint and lies of the stadium failing to meet Health and Safety criteria - a clear lie as I can provide the response from the Health and Safety people when I posed that very question to them after the earlier club lies on the subject - a cast iron fact where both the club statement and that of the H&S executive can be provided.
Success as a label to a sports team is a simplistic label and as such its easy to determine its meaning. The context of success over retention of status/membership of a league is different and I contest that this isn't success the same way that achieving a fourth place isn't winning, its achieving fourth place and again I'd refer to that being a statement of the business not the sports team itself, although they are symbiotic they are measured very differently. The lack of revenue stream expansion and expansion of the business in a coherent manner i.e. across the board and not just targeted at the playing squad does show poor management in exactly the same way that the economics of a monoculture business failing when its single line/product fails. Everton is failing as a business because the income streams haven't been expanded to include non match day activities and the reinvestment across infrastructure to name just a single element of that business being just one component part. Growing the business and equally shrinking it is solely down to the chairman and his board with the actual undertaking of their strategy being physically ran by his CEO and support staff. In all lines there have been clear and distinct failures:
Marketing is dreadful in comparison with the club's peer group
Sponsorship deals are way below the club's peer group
Non-match day activities beyond local non income generating community work appear non existent and thus negligible in terms of the accounts
Investment in the infrastructure of the stadium itself has been non-existent beyond a coat of paint and lies of the stadium failing to meet Health and Safety criteria - a clear lie as I can provide the response from the Health and Safety people when I posed that very question to them after the earlier club lies on the subject - a cast iron fact where both the club statement and that of the H&S executive can be provided.
I can't bring myself to read Martian's last post, it looks like a drowning man clutching at straws.
I always think that TW is the greatest Evertonian website and this thread proves it. The internet is a great leveller; you sit behind your keyboard and you can communicate with people you probably would never have met. The secret to being a good toffeewebber is, be yourself and don?t attempt to bullshit or you?ll be found out.
What was the thread about again? We?ve had a great discussion with lots of information passing between Evertonians and Martian has played his role in this; what his role was is open to debate but jester does spring to mind.
There was a Greek who played for Liverpool the other year; nobody could ever remember or pronounce his name so he was universally known as ?that Greek twat? over our side of the park. I fear that in months to come Martian will be simply remembered as ?that Kazakhstani cunt?
Martian I?m not the sort of person to kick a man when he?s down; you have nothing to say because you know nothing. People have attempted to educate you but you?re a know all and like all know all?s you don?t know when you?re beaten; you?re contention that we?re unlikely to get a better board and that the fans only have a Kenwright out strategy is ridiculous as is your belief that there was a £52m subsidy which was the greatest con in the history of EFC. You either don't understand it or you choose not to understand it; either way you look a right dickhead.
You?ve played your part in bringing the real actions of good old Blue Bill, the greatest Evertonian on the planet, to a wider audience. Kenwright tried to sell the club down the river and unlike the KD and FSF the despicable act can?t be disputed because the proof is there for all to see.
The Blue Union have put forward a solution to the debacle that is the board, they?ve requested that professionals be brought is; it?s nice to see that the board are trying to listen but their penchant for getting things wrong looks to be alive and well; they?ve brought in Christian Purslow, the Anfield reject, you couldn?t make it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I always think that TW is the greatest Evertonian website and this thread proves it. The internet is a great leveller; you sit behind your keyboard and you can communicate with people you probably would never have met. The secret to being a good toffeewebber is, be yourself and don?t attempt to bullshit or you?ll be found out.
What was the thread about again? We?ve had a great discussion with lots of information passing between Evertonians and Martian has played his role in this; what his role was is open to debate but jester does spring to mind.
There was a Greek who played for Liverpool the other year; nobody could ever remember or pronounce his name so he was universally known as ?that Greek twat? over our side of the park. I fear that in months to come Martian will be simply remembered as ?that Kazakhstani cunt?
Martian I?m not the sort of person to kick a man when he?s down; you have nothing to say because you know nothing. People have attempted to educate you but you?re a know all and like all know all?s you don?t know when you?re beaten; you?re contention that we?re unlikely to get a better board and that the fans only have a Kenwright out strategy is ridiculous as is your belief that there was a £52m subsidy which was the greatest con in the history of EFC. You either don't understand it or you choose not to understand it; either way you look a right dickhead.
You?ve played your part in bringing the real actions of good old Blue Bill, the greatest Evertonian on the planet, to a wider audience. Kenwright tried to sell the club down the river and unlike the KD and FSF the despicable act can?t be disputed because the proof is there for all to see.
The Blue Union have put forward a solution to the debacle that is the board, they?ve requested that professionals be brought is; it?s nice to see that the board are trying to listen but their penchant for getting things wrong looks to be alive and well; they?ve brought in Christian Purslow, the Anfield reject, you couldn?t make it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Martin. Sorry to disappoint you but a labourer in Kazi - no sorry can't claim it I'm afraid.
Got my own , moderately successful, business.
Did my time there and moved on to other countries.
One thing I will say is that if it wasn't for me - and a few others - and our labourers you and those 4 pricks who claim to be Evertonians would not be working in Kazi right now.
Do you know I've worked all over the world since 1970 and can't think of ever working with " 4 match going Evertonians " together in one place. Met loads of Evertonians but never as you " say" you have.
As I said if you think us here on Toffeeweb are " nutters " Wait till you see the real ones in Bautino.
You're just a wind up merchant.
Might be back out there in the summer, Agip, have some problems they may want us labourers to fix.
Might look you up down in Bautino.
Got my own , moderately successful, business.
Did my time there and moved on to other countries.
One thing I will say is that if it wasn't for me - and a few others - and our labourers you and those 4 pricks who claim to be Evertonians would not be working in Kazi right now.
Do you know I've worked all over the world since 1970 and can't think of ever working with " 4 match going Evertonians " together in one place. Met loads of Evertonians but never as you " say" you have.
As I said if you think us here on Toffeeweb are " nutters " Wait till you see the real ones in Bautino.
You're just a wind up merchant.
Might be back out there in the summer, Agip, have some problems they may want us labourers to fix.
Might look you up down in Bautino.
Right Mason...you and me, play-time, back of the bike shed, let's sort it
Gavin
You are expanding the discussion on Everton to areas way outside of the points I was making and you are also stating opinion as fact in almost every assertion. If yoiu make an assertion the you have to support it. It is very common on here though. You are seemingly working on the basis that I've said that Everton have been well run. I've never said that.
Colin
the site is indeed a great thing. The downside is it allows intellectual pygmies like you to have a platform for your bile squirting. It allows you to come across as a simpleton which you may not be but as a serial waffler which you certainly are. the Blue Union has put forward no solutions as solutions have to be both reasonable and achievable. That professionals be brought in and the current board just allows them to do this is below laughable. Stupid boy Pike. You also don't understand simple economics.
Kazakhstani? A native of Kazakhstan is a Kazakh and I'm not one. I'm from the beautiful south of England
You are expanding the discussion on Everton to areas way outside of the points I was making and you are also stating opinion as fact in almost every assertion. If yoiu make an assertion the you have to support it. It is very common on here though. You are seemingly working on the basis that I've said that Everton have been well run. I've never said that.
Colin
the site is indeed a great thing. The downside is it allows intellectual pygmies like you to have a platform for your bile squirting. It allows you to come across as a simpleton which you may not be but as a serial waffler which you certainly are. the Blue Union has put forward no solutions as solutions have to be both reasonable and achievable. That professionals be brought in and the current board just allows them to do this is below laughable. Stupid boy Pike. You also don't understand simple economics.
Kazakhstani? A native of Kazakhstan is a Kazakh and I'm not one. I'm from the beautiful south of England
Colin #570
I find your posts to be educative and enlightening. I have learnt more from reading you on here and on kipper than from anyone else, anywhere else. Don't waste your talent tearing new arseholes in people who don't want to face facts.
I find your posts to be educative and enlightening. I have learnt more from reading you on here and on kipper than from anyone else, anywhere else. Don't waste your talent tearing new arseholes in people who don't want to face facts.
Martin
"The beautiful south of England"
I see what you did there. Really clever that.
You're only here to wind people up.
"The beautiful south of England"
I see what you did there. Really clever that.
You're only here to wind people up.
I may not agree with Martin but by God if he had been at Rourkes Drift we'd still be fighting that battle!
Martin - I'd be happy to discuss your general thoughts on all things EFC over a pint of Sussex at the back table of the Malt Shovel anytime.
Martin - I'd be happy to discuss your general thoughts on all things EFC over a pint of Sussex at the back table of the Malt Shovel anytime.
Mark. Quite the opposite. Had Martin been at Rourkes Drift the battle would have been over before it had begun !
In his " opinion " the fact that 10000 chanting Zulu warriors were advancing on a small detachment of South Wales Borderers is in itself not a hostile action and therefore the SWB should have extended greetings to said warriors.
Possibly as the last man was standing would Martin have clicked that something was slightly amiss and ordered said last man to repel the remaining 10000 warriors !
It's called not accepting the obvious until its to late. Something, I am afraid, Martin must excel at.
In his " opinion " the fact that 10000 chanting Zulu warriors were advancing on a small detachment of South Wales Borderers is in itself not a hostile action and therefore the SWB should have extended greetings to said warriors.
Possibly as the last man was standing would Martin have clicked that something was slightly amiss and ordered said last man to repel the remaining 10000 warriors !
It's called not accepting the obvious until its to late. Something, I am afraid, Martin must excel at.
Mark,
Martin WAS at Rourke's Drift...
How d'you think the fight started?
(p.s. that is, presumably, a southern Malt Shovel and not the proper one in Cockburn St, Edinburgh?)
Martin WAS at Rourke's Drift...
How d'you think the fight started?
(p.s. that is, presumably, a southern Malt Shovel and not the proper one in Cockburn St, Edinburgh?)
I'm not getting involved in the actual debate here but if the club's supposed experts and lawyers were tied in knots by somebody who resorts to calling people 'martian', 'soft twat' and 'that kazakhstani cunt' in an internet debate then we're in a worse position than any of us realised.
"Colin #570
I find your posts to be educative and enlightening."
Is that when he is (hilariously) continuously calling someone Martian, a soft twat or "that Kazakhstani cunt"?
I'm assuming everyone here is adults and frankly, nobody comes out of this with much credit, since it has descended into petty name calling and dismissing anyone with an alternative viewpoint.
(And yes, I am aware of the irony of my posting on this thread to say that nobody on it comes out of it with much credit)
I find your posts to be educative and enlightening."
Is that when he is (hilariously) continuously calling someone Martian, a soft twat or "that Kazakhstani cunt"?
I'm assuming everyone here is adults and frankly, nobody comes out of this with much credit, since it has descended into petty name calling and dismissing anyone with an alternative viewpoint.
(And yes, I am aware of the irony of my posting on this thread to say that nobody on it comes out of it with much credit)
Martin,
All I have done is merely pointed out contradictions to your views, you don't apportion any blame to the badly ran business which is Everton FC which you infer is being ran successfully.
I pointed out fact with one item a fact I can back up with documentary evidence ? the cub lied about the H&S Certification of Goodison Park. An email from the said HSE, saying it isn't an email, I shared on this very website, showing the sender, and offering all and sundry the opportunity to contact the HSE themselves, as their own evidence if they believed it wasn't true.
If you can highlight anywhere else I've used the word fact please show me, as you are again reverting to supposition to support your argument.
All I have done is merely pointed out contradictions to your views, you don't apportion any blame to the badly ran business which is Everton FC which you infer is being ran successfully.
I pointed out fact with one item a fact I can back up with documentary evidence ? the cub lied about the H&S Certification of Goodison Park. An email from the said HSE, saying it isn't an email, I shared on this very website, showing the sender, and offering all and sundry the opportunity to contact the HSE themselves, as their own evidence if they believed it wasn't true.
If you can highlight anywhere else I've used the word fact please show me, as you are again reverting to supposition to support your argument.
Colin Sanderson 578 ? I though you got to finish that with "Martin, you are an arse!!" ? Colonel Melchet style!
Fucking fantastic guys. Great thread and I've also learned a lot from it too. Not from Colin, he's just a well rehearsed opinionated choirboy, but by reading a lot deeper into DK and other issues than I have before.
Mark, I'd love to buy you a beer at the Malt Shovel (Horsham?) and talk about Everton.
John, my great Evertonians here are Kazakh converts who I have glued to the TV in the Renaissance Champions bar when EFC are on telly. Instead of singing "Allah is Great", I have them singing "Billy Boy is great" or "Moysie is great". I work for TCO not Agip so thankfully I never get to Bautino but I do work down at Tengiz sometimes. Hell of a plant. I'll give you a shout if we need some navvies
:-)
The best analogy with Rourkes drift would have been 10000 armed Zulus against just me. I would have talked them to sleep or even death in 10 minutes
Right Phil, you're on but I'm not back for 6 weeks and really hate coming up to the Arctic wastes of the North of England.
Mark, I'd love to buy you a beer at the Malt Shovel (Horsham?) and talk about Everton.
John, my great Evertonians here are Kazakh converts who I have glued to the TV in the Renaissance Champions bar when EFC are on telly. Instead of singing "Allah is Great", I have them singing "Billy Boy is great" or "Moysie is great". I work for TCO not Agip so thankfully I never get to Bautino but I do work down at Tengiz sometimes. Hell of a plant. I'll give you a shout if we need some navvies
:-)
The best analogy with Rourkes drift would have been 10000 armed Zulus against just me. I would have talked them to sleep or even death in 10 minutes
Right Phil, you're on but I'm not back for 6 weeks and really hate coming up to the Arctic wastes of the North of England.
Chevron eh Martin. Well that explains a lot! Me and my navvies have got them out of a few cock-ups as well.
I thought all their halfwits were employed down in Cabinda ? obviously a few escaped.
I thought all their halfwits were employed down in Cabinda ? obviously a few escaped.
Phil@400 "Facts v opinions
Here's a few facts. demonstrable and proveable offered without opinion..Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing"
Martin@402 "Phil, every point that you state as fact is an opinion."
Phil@433 "But EFC have, in fact, won nothing under Bill Kenwright's leadership! "
Martin@522 "The fact that EFC has won nothing under BK is irrelevant."
Phil@549 "So you agree with me that "Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing" is a fact and not an opinion - at last"
Martin@556 "of course it's fact."
Well FFS why did you deny it in the first place then??! I do see the point you've been trying to make, however the above just makes you look like the keyboard version of the kind of person who'll argue just to hear the sound of their own voice!
So you don't deny Bill's shortcomings, you admit the board's incompetence, yet you can't seem to connect the last dot and now present us with this gem..
"For sure, EFC is a poor business but not because it hasn?t been managed successfully. It is poor because we have spent money on playing resources to achieve a perhaps unsustainable league position at the expense of infrastructure. The ultimate sin of course was a lot of it was money we didn?t have?"
So, EFC is a poor business, because it was managed successfully then? Spending money we didn't have on players, instead of on infrastructure was successful management? Bill is a liar, the board is incompetent, EFC is a poor business (but not due to an incompetent board and a lying chairman of course), yet you seem intent on dismissing the fact that BK & friends have made the bed they're now forced to lie in, and you expect us to support them as they go down in flames and take the club and all of us down with them?
Survival in the Premier League is the new winning the league now is it? England should be given 17 slots for the Champion's League then. Everyone's a winner, wheeeeyyyyy!!!
To paraphrase Big Nev, if you don't wake up in the morning thinking you've got a chance to win, what's the fucking point of getting out of bed?
Here's a few facts. demonstrable and proveable offered without opinion..Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing"
Martin@402 "Phil, every point that you state as fact is an opinion."
Phil@433 "But EFC have, in fact, won nothing under Bill Kenwright's leadership! "
Martin@522 "The fact that EFC has won nothing under BK is irrelevant."
Phil@549 "So you agree with me that "Under Bill Kenwright's chairmanship Everton Football Club have won nothing" is a fact and not an opinion - at last"
Martin@556 "of course it's fact."
Well FFS why did you deny it in the first place then??! I do see the point you've been trying to make, however the above just makes you look like the keyboard version of the kind of person who'll argue just to hear the sound of their own voice!
So you don't deny Bill's shortcomings, you admit the board's incompetence, yet you can't seem to connect the last dot and now present us with this gem..
"For sure, EFC is a poor business but not because it hasn?t been managed successfully. It is poor because we have spent money on playing resources to achieve a perhaps unsustainable league position at the expense of infrastructure. The ultimate sin of course was a lot of it was money we didn?t have?"
So, EFC is a poor business, because it was managed successfully then? Spending money we didn't have on players, instead of on infrastructure was successful management? Bill is a liar, the board is incompetent, EFC is a poor business (but not due to an incompetent board and a lying chairman of course), yet you seem intent on dismissing the fact that BK & friends have made the bed they're now forced to lie in, and you expect us to support them as they go down in flames and take the club and all of us down with them?
Survival in the Premier League is the new winning the league now is it? England should be given 17 slots for the Champion's League then. Everyone's a winner, wheeeeyyyyy!!!
To paraphrase Big Nev, if you don't wake up in the morning thinking you've got a chance to win, what's the fucking point of getting out of bed?
John, I'm not a Chevroid but a contractor. I'm a process engineer on the design side. Well on me Mum's side anyway
Oh no, incoming serious post from Rory of Sligo.
Rory, I said that winning trophies as the only measure of success is opinion. Let me give you some advice. Read the thread and don't quote selectively. Big Nev didn't say "winning a trophy" of course EFC should think they can win every game but only an idiot woul expect them to win trophies in their current state.
Rory, I said that winning trophies as the only measure of success is opinion. Let me give you some advice. Read the thread and don't quote selectively. Big Nev didn't say "winning a trophy" of course EFC should think they can win every game but only an idiot woul expect them to win trophies in their current state.
Martin, I very much understand your point of view. I posted an article some time ago making the point that BK is victim of his own desire to see Everton amongst the elite. Having read articles for both the defense and prosecution though, I think that both the truth and the best way forward are pretty close to what Colin Fitzpatrick projects, despite the harsh words. I think that this thread is a classic example of how to push away thinking people from a just cause. Don't be put off finding out more.
Martin
We have a couple of sayings North of Watford which I offer, without prejudice: "He'd start a fight in an empty house; cause a nark in a chapel of rest"
Safe journey home
We have a couple of sayings North of Watford which I offer, without prejudice: "He'd start a fight in an empty house; cause a nark in a chapel of rest"
Safe journey home
Martin. The great thing is that navvies like me do things, make things and get things to go. Then we hand it over to people like "process engineers on the design side", pen-pushers and people who like to wear white coveralls. Sometimes the same guy does all three things!
Then, when they royally fuck up, navvies like me travel half-way round the world to bail them out. Earn a good living it must be said.
Then the white-coveralled, pen-pushing "process engineers on the design side" all pile in to the nearest bar for treble GTs all round and tell each other how well they did! Great for me 'cos, as long as they employ these halfwits, navvies like me will always have work!!
Cheers Martin!
Then, when they royally fuck up, navvies like me travel half-way round the world to bail them out. Earn a good living it must be said.
Then the white-coveralled, pen-pushing "process engineers on the design side" all pile in to the nearest bar for treble GTs all round and tell each other how well they did! Great for me 'cos, as long as they employ these halfwits, navvies like me will always have work!!
Cheers Martin!
Well done Martin for sheer persistence in this thred. And all done without the abuse that Colin Kirkpatrick aka pub bore always ends up resorting to in his lengthy and tedious postings.
Steve
Quite selective that. Martin's postings were every bit as lengthy as Colin's.
Only full of shite.
Quite selective that. Martin's postings were every bit as lengthy as Colin's.
Only full of shite.
Congratulations, Steve, for getting HIS name wrong as well as me. Anyway, the sentiment is the same!
Martin (and Phil) yep - the one at the lights on Albion way! (not in Edinburgh) next to Raj Kumal!
The Rourkes drift analogy was meant to be there'd be thousands of em sticking the boot/spear in but you just wouldnt lie down!
your like that Black Kerniggit off of Monty Python who wanted to fight on having lost both arms and legs.
"I may not agree with what you say but I would defend to the death (well, quite strongly) your right to say it!"
great thread! - very entertaining and very educational - thanks Martin and Colin and all the other Zulus and Welsh chaps and Michael Caine as well.
(Martin, you'll find me down Hills Farm Lane on sunday mornings teaching the Tigers U12's how to defend corners and still leave 3 up the pitch!)
The Rourkes drift analogy was meant to be there'd be thousands of em sticking the boot/spear in but you just wouldnt lie down!
your like that Black Kerniggit off of Monty Python who wanted to fight on having lost both arms and legs.
"I may not agree with what you say but I would defend to the death (well, quite strongly) your right to say it!"
great thread! - very entertaining and very educational - thanks Martin and Colin and all the other Zulus and Welsh chaps and Michael Caine as well.
(Martin, you'll find me down Hills Farm Lane on sunday mornings teaching the Tigers U12's how to defend corners and still leave 3 up the pitch!)
Mark
Any chance of sending Moysey a diagram or two?
I've sent him photos of late 60s games where we are defending corners, showing Moggsie and/or Alan Whittle, Jimmy Husband standing on the half-way line marked by 4 defenders
Any chance of sending Moysey a diagram or two?
I've sent him photos of late 60s games where we are defending corners, showing Moggsie and/or Alan Whittle, Jimmy Husband standing on the half-way line marked by 4 defenders
Noel #586
The mere fact of a little name-calling (in both directions) doesn't invalidate my post. Colin's contributions are always well-written and informative. The invective is unfortunate but understandable.
The mere fact of a little name-calling (in both directions) doesn't invalidate my post. Colin's contributions are always well-written and informative. The invective is unfortunate but understandable.
There's a few Mary Whitehouse type, delicate little flowers on this thread, is there not? Maybe Colin should post the truth after the nine o'clock watershed, to avoid offending sensibilities.
Let's face opinions, Martin would make Mother Theresa swear like a navvy.
Let's face opinions, Martin would make Mother Theresa swear like a navvy.
"Rory, I said that winning trophies as the only measure of success is opinion."
You did, Martin, but that's irrelevant as Phil didn't say Everton had not achieved success(however you want to redefine it). He said the fact was that they had won nothing under Kenwright. You flatly denounced it as opinion not fact, then later agreed it was indeed fact! Stop moving the goalposts.
"Let me give you some advice. Read the thread and don't quote selectively."
I have and I quoted what was relevant.
"Big Nev didn't say "winning a trophy" of course EFC should think they can win every game but only an idiot woul expect them to win trophies in their current state."
No, I don't expect them to win trophies, Martin, but that doesn't mean they can't win any. They have every chance of winning an FA Cup this year which, incidentally, IS something Nev has said.
You did, Martin, but that's irrelevant as Phil didn't say Everton had not achieved success(however you want to redefine it). He said the fact was that they had won nothing under Kenwright. You flatly denounced it as opinion not fact, then later agreed it was indeed fact! Stop moving the goalposts.
"Let me give you some advice. Read the thread and don't quote selectively."
I have and I quoted what was relevant.
"Big Nev didn't say "winning a trophy" of course EFC should think they can win every game but only an idiot woul expect them to win trophies in their current state."
No, I don't expect them to win trophies, Martin, but that doesn't mean they can't win any. They have every chance of winning an FA Cup this year which, incidentally, IS something Nev has said.
Anyone wishing to meet up with Martin..... can I be there too? I've a sneaky feeling he's afigment of someones imagination.
Been to Kazak too.... shithole, shit leave and not great pay considering. Nearly everyone I've met has ended up coming back at first opportunity.....
Been to Kazak too.... shithole, shit leave and not great pay considering. Nearly everyone I've met has ended up coming back at first opportunity.....
Purely out of boredom but Rourke's drift was predominantly fought by big farm hands from Wiltshire and the film although portrayed as a documentary about a Welsh victory was a mixed bag, the South Wales Borderers regiment were in name only at the time and shortly to be renamed afterwards, there is no dispute about it remaining the highest count of VCs earned deservedly in a single engagement but the true battle was fought through the night and the Zulus portrayed as young men were in fact average aged 50 and had ran several miles before the battle, the regiment was down to its last few hundred rounds but the Zulus had literally had enough and suffered high losses and called it a night unknowing a final push could well have won the battle.
Martin, a question, please...
Are the "4 keen match going Evertonians" you work with the same Evertonians you refer to in the statement "my great Evertonians here are Kazakh converts"?
Are the "4 keen match going Evertonians" you work with the same Evertonians you refer to in the statement "my great Evertonians here are Kazakh converts"?
Tell you what Tom, Martian isn't even the worst of "them". They all crawled back under their stones after Kirkby but now they're everywhere. All thick as two short planks, even when presented with irrefutable facts such as those from the Destination Kirkby con trick that was perpetrated by the Everton board, you can spot them a mile off.
"Intellectual pygmies like you" ? you gotta laugh when people need to tell you about their intellectualism; you know, when they can't even understand what they're reading, "so the £52m subsidy is confirmed" lol
You ashore for the QPR game? Give me a shout if you are? ? Not you Martian, I mean Tom, a real season ticket holding matchgoing shareholder!!!!!
"Intellectual pygmies like you" ? you gotta laugh when people need to tell you about their intellectualism; you know, when they can't even understand what they're reading, "so the £52m subsidy is confirmed" lol
You ashore for the QPR game? Give me a shout if you are? ? Not you Martian, I mean Tom, a real season ticket holding matchgoing shareholder!!!!!
As someone who doesn't live in Liverpool and is quite ignorant of King's Dock and Kirkby, I have found this thread excellent.
In my view, Colin has presented a totally compelling argument. Martin, you just love this sort of stuff, don't you? Anyway you have been the catalyst for an illuminating debate.
In my view, Colin has presented a totally compelling argument. Martin, you just love this sort of stuff, don't you? Anyway you have been the catalyst for an illuminating debate.
Just like to mention to our favourite Martian...
That if he attends the games, what he thinks about the Park End car park... the fact we couldn't build on it?
We were stopped in case it has to be repossessed, and next time you visit the megastore to buy a shirt off Kitbag (not Everton), ask to speak to the owner of the premises; it won't be Bullshit or anyone else connected to Everton as we don't even own the club shop.... ffs.
If that's any sort of success for a proven liar like Billybullshit, explain it to me please.
Oh, before you give me the 'your opinion' bollocks that you have hid behind on this thread all along, I know he's a liar... FACT! because he has lied to my face.
If it wasn't for Colin and others, we would be in a much worse situation than we are in now. Why? Because Bullshit and his cohorts know they are watching every dodgy move they make.
You carry on hiding behind your keyboard, and let real people who care, look out for Everton, Colin and Dave Kelly and others, give their own time, money and health, to unearth the fiasco that is Bill's tenure as chairman, because they love this club, as I do with a passion...
There... and no swearing.... Fuckin made up now!
That if he attends the games, what he thinks about the Park End car park... the fact we couldn't build on it?
We were stopped in case it has to be repossessed, and next time you visit the megastore to buy a shirt off Kitbag (not Everton), ask to speak to the owner of the premises; it won't be Bullshit or anyone else connected to Everton as we don't even own the club shop.... ffs.
If that's any sort of success for a proven liar like Billybullshit, explain it to me please.
Oh, before you give me the 'your opinion' bollocks that you have hid behind on this thread all along, I know he's a liar... FACT! because he has lied to my face.
If it wasn't for Colin and others, we would be in a much worse situation than we are in now. Why? Because Bullshit and his cohorts know they are watching every dodgy move they make.
You carry on hiding behind your keyboard, and let real people who care, look out for Everton, Colin and Dave Kelly and others, give their own time, money and health, to unearth the fiasco that is Bill's tenure as chairman, because they love this club, as I do with a passion...
There... and no swearing.... Fuckin made up now!
So, after all that, is some worthy shareholder going to write that letter for clarification of those `operational costs` and share with us the Club`s reply?
Carl @ 621,
We'll agree to disagree then, as my idea of "well-written and informative" doesn't include resorting to calling someone a cunt, among other things, because they (rightly or wrongly) don't agree with your viewpoint.
We'll agree to disagree then, as my idea of "well-written and informative" doesn't include resorting to calling someone a cunt, among other things, because they (rightly or wrongly) don't agree with your viewpoint.
Andy # 643,
Thanks for that, when somebody talks shite I'll always have a go and attempt to inform through information and provide links to that information. I'm not interested in anyone's opinion when they're blatantly talking shite. Too many confuse viewpoint or opinion with fact. When you don't agree with a fact you deserve all you get; that's my opinion and no doubt all the saps will agree with it, because they're nice people and they have principles like believing everyone has the right to an opinion, yeah right, like Gary Glitter has a right to his opinion and they believe in being a good loser.
No doubt you've heard the old saying, show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser? That's what life's about mate, winners and losers; Churchill and Hitler, Fischer and Spassky, Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam, Colin and Martian, and talkin' of losers we've won fuck all for 16 years; but let's all clap because the future of Everton is about people like Martian and Doddy - losers!
Thanks for that, when somebody talks shite I'll always have a go and attempt to inform through information and provide links to that information. I'm not interested in anyone's opinion when they're blatantly talking shite. Too many confuse viewpoint or opinion with fact. When you don't agree with a fact you deserve all you get; that's my opinion and no doubt all the saps will agree with it, because they're nice people and they have principles like believing everyone has the right to an opinion, yeah right, like Gary Glitter has a right to his opinion and they believe in being a good loser.
No doubt you've heard the old saying, show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser? That's what life's about mate, winners and losers; Churchill and Hitler, Fischer and Spassky, Bugs Bunny and Yosemite Sam, Colin and Martian, and talkin' of losers we've won fuck all for 16 years; but let's all clap because the future of Everton is about people like Martian and Doddy - losers!
Steve you are absolutely right about Colin, he is tedious and of limited intelligence; he talks absolute shite. He didn't have a scooby what I was saying just spouting the same old anti Kenwright mantra. Another nasty little shrill activist who doesn't know the difference between opinion and fact.
Sorry, I don't wish to get drawn down to Colin's level of debate but the reason I know that he's a bullshitter is that I have read the report and I go to look at his links. What he posts here setting himself up as somme kind of an authority is the Colin interpretation of what was said or written. I can think independently and draw my own conclusions, Colin as a dedicated anti-board activist is capable of that
Yes Martian I think I am capable of that! Has the Vodka kicked in fella?
I think you need to move away from the keyboard and have a lie down as your sentences are barely coherent; not that you exercised a large degree of coherence before this rather painful incite into your own intellect and if this is an example I think we can sleep safely in our beds.
I didn't think that it was possible but you're now making an even greater fool of yourself and frankly it's painful to watch a grown man losing it.
It's the end fella, it was a valiant attempt but..... До свидания!
I think you need to move away from the keyboard and have a lie down as your sentences are barely coherent; not that you exercised a large degree of coherence before this rather painful incite into your own intellect and if this is an example I think we can sleep safely in our beds.
I didn't think that it was possible but you're now making an even greater fool of yourself and frankly it's painful to watch a grown man losing it.
It's the end fella, it was a valiant attempt but..... До свидания!
Colin
What are you doing up at your time in the morning or are you away too. You don't sit up all night waiting for me to post do you :-) Never underestimate how much I can make a fool of myself neither, I have a lifetime of honing this to perfection
ïîêà ïîêà
What are you doing up at your time in the morning or are you away too. You don't sit up all night waiting for me to post do you :-) Never underestimate how much I can make a fool of myself neither, I have a lifetime of honing this to perfection
ïîêà ïîêà
Richard@654
I'm not sure that people actually want to know the truth because myths are far more convenient
Phil@639
The Kazakh Evertonians are straight from Borat. The Evertonians I work with are from Widnes, Warrington and two genuine bin lids from Liverpool. The nutters and headbanger quote was serious too.
Tom@637
I'm working in Atyrau now and it has improved tremendously since I first came her. Good bars and restaurants and wall to wall crumpet if that floats your boat. TCO also pay us well and provide the best possible conditions
Rory@630
What I said was opinion not fact was the concept that winning trophies was a measure of success. I've never changed that. There is a chance that Everton will win the cup this year and again I have said nothing different. My opinion though is that this is a very low chance because eventually (like when we met Chelsea in the final), we'll meet a better resourced club and they will likely beat us. Again, there's no disconnect.
Peter@602
My posts have been lengthy because I've been answering several posts with each response most of which were talking out of their chocolate starfish
Anthony@597
Believe me, I have read very deeeply into all of the incidents like DK and KD and there is no smoking gun other than unequivocal evidence that my hero Bill is a fantasist and a dipstick facts which I've never denied. The "way forward" as proposed by Colin and BU is nonsensical, there can be no more appropriate word to describe it. It knocks super Bill into the gutter on pure fantasy content.
I'm not sure that people actually want to know the truth because myths are far more convenient
Phil@639
The Kazakh Evertonians are straight from Borat. The Evertonians I work with are from Widnes, Warrington and two genuine bin lids from Liverpool. The nutters and headbanger quote was serious too.
Tom@637
I'm working in Atyrau now and it has improved tremendously since I first came her. Good bars and restaurants and wall to wall crumpet if that floats your boat. TCO also pay us well and provide the best possible conditions
Rory@630
What I said was opinion not fact was the concept that winning trophies was a measure of success. I've never changed that. There is a chance that Everton will win the cup this year and again I have said nothing different. My opinion though is that this is a very low chance because eventually (like when we met Chelsea in the final), we'll meet a better resourced club and they will likely beat us. Again, there's no disconnect.
Peter@602
My posts have been lengthy because I've been answering several posts with each response most of which were talking out of their chocolate starfish
Anthony@597
Believe me, I have read very deeeply into all of the incidents like DK and KD and there is no smoking gun other than unequivocal evidence that my hero Bill is a fantasist and a dipstick facts which I've never denied. The "way forward" as proposed by Colin and BU is nonsensical, there can be no more appropriate word to describe it. It knocks super Bill into the gutter on pure fantasy content.
Noel #655, Colin isn't calling Martin a cunt because he doesn't agree with his viewpoint. It's because Martin is being deliberately obtuse and derailing the thread with accusations only he has dreamed up, and being a complete WUM and revelling in it.
In other words, because he is one.
In other words, because he is one.
Martin calls Colin 'of limited intelligence'.
In further news..
David Cameron calls Dennis Skinner 'a Posh twat'.
Katie Price says Mother Theresa was 'a fuckin' slag'.
Harry Redknapp says George Clooney is 'a right ugly cunt'.
Etc
In further news..
David Cameron calls Dennis Skinner 'a Posh twat'.
Katie Price says Mother Theresa was 'a fuckin' slag'.
Harry Redknapp says George Clooney is 'a right ugly cunt'.
Etc
Martin...... if you have read the reports and links.... and truly understand the context of any references and quotes then you couldn't draw those conclusions..... even the club wouldn't now claim the same stance. As ever you never refer to detail jjust a few broadbrush statements and irrelevant illegality comments. There is no substance whatsoever in your posts.
No real interest in kazak girlie bars..... sampled all that from tierra del fuego upto alaska and Hundreds of places in between.....been offered several contracts over there but time off with the kids is my priority (as I thought it was with you, yet another contradiction?).... so 6:2 is a non-starter. Tbh I wouldn't even accept 1:1 for this reason. Depends what price you put on your leave really.....
No real interest in kazak girlie bars..... sampled all that from tierra del fuego upto alaska and Hundreds of places in between.....been offered several contracts over there but time off with the kids is my priority (as I thought it was with you, yet another contradiction?).... so 6:2 is a non-starter. Tbh I wouldn't even accept 1:1 for this reason. Depends what price you put on your leave really.....
Your just a wind up merchant Martin, come on you know you are!!
Here's an example of Martian's intellect - "Believe me, I have read very deeeply into all of the incidents like DK and KD and there is no smoking gun other than unequivocal evidence that my hero Bill is a fantasist and a dipstick facts which I've never denied. The "way forward" as proposed by Colin and BU is nonsensical, there can be no more appropriate word to describe it. It knocks super Bill into the gutter on pure fantasy content."
or even better.....
"the Blue Union has put forward no solutions as solutions have to be both reasonable and achievable. That professionals be brought in and the current board just allows them to do this is below laughable. Stupid boy Pike. You also don't understand simple economics."
In other news.....
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2012/03/01/inner-circle-sports-join-everton-fc-buy-out-hunt-after-helping-to-broker-liverpool-fc-s-two-american-take-overs-100252-30436240/
Poor old Martian, he probably doesn't even understand what it means - clueless in Kazakhstan - they should make a movie!
What a dickhead.
or even better.....
"the Blue Union has put forward no solutions as solutions have to be both reasonable and achievable. That professionals be brought in and the current board just allows them to do this is below laughable. Stupid boy Pike. You also don't understand simple economics."
In other news.....
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2012/03/01/inner-circle-sports-join-everton-fc-buy-out-hunt-after-helping-to-broker-liverpool-fc-s-two-american-take-overs-100252-30436240/
Poor old Martian, he probably doesn't even understand what it means - clueless in Kazakhstan - they should make a movie!
What a dickhead.
Mason is a blatant wind up merchant getting a kick out of this, he's been flaunting his ego on another thread today.
A sad man, getting his thrills stirring it up.
I called it quits early doors on this thread as its clear he is here for his own amusement.
I suggest people stop fanning the flames of this tedious individuals ego. He agrees with everyone, no-one and then just employs semantics to muddy the waters of the debate.
He must have had a boner for days.
Its pathetic.
He was reasonably subtle at first however a raging ego-maniac cannot suppress the urges for this long!!
It appears he gets off on this. He has a lifetime perfecting it, apparantly.
Nowt so queer as folk.
A sad man, getting his thrills stirring it up.
I called it quits early doors on this thread as its clear he is here for his own amusement.
I suggest people stop fanning the flames of this tedious individuals ego. He agrees with everyone, no-one and then just employs semantics to muddy the waters of the debate.
He must have had a boner for days.
Its pathetic.
He was reasonably subtle at first however a raging ego-maniac cannot suppress the urges for this long!!
It appears he gets off on this. He has a lifetime perfecting it, apparantly.
Nowt so queer as folk.
Tom, I have no kids at home and I'm saving for retirement so again absolutely no contradiction in what I say. I had my kids with me at all times previous to my recent jobs but my sons have flown the nest and my autistic daughter has gone into full time care. My sole responsibility is to provide now for retirement (I don't have the luxury of a Company pension) and hopefully to leave something for the kids and nothing to the taxman.
Colin, you really are thick. Answer my questions or please be quiet. I'll accept your first fact which would be "I'm sorry Martin, I can't answer them". Jesus, you can certainly mouth off, just imagine how constructive you could be if it was ever on subject. You could power several thousand homes with all of that hot air.
The Everton board stand aside and allows a set of external professionals in to run the club? Are you serious? Who picks these professionals and who pays them, who convinces Bill toand the board to allow this charade.
Richard, earlier in the post I was deadly serious, I made several points in response to insinuations that the Everton board were guilty of criminal offences and I ended up asking 2 questions. Once I realised that they weren't going to be answered and that the thread had become a series of ignorant personal attacks on me, I've been taking the piss out of you. Colin, the worst culprit, I've reduced to quivering apoplexy. You may ask why? Well is it any worse than playground insults? Not at all, and I'm sure many have had a good laugh.
Colin, you really are thick. Answer my questions or please be quiet. I'll accept your first fact which would be "I'm sorry Martin, I can't answer them". Jesus, you can certainly mouth off, just imagine how constructive you could be if it was ever on subject. You could power several thousand homes with all of that hot air.
The Everton board stand aside and allows a set of external professionals in to run the club? Are you serious? Who picks these professionals and who pays them, who convinces Bill toand the board to allow this charade.
Richard, earlier in the post I was deadly serious, I made several points in response to insinuations that the Everton board were guilty of criminal offences and I ended up asking 2 questions. Once I realised that they weren't going to be answered and that the thread had become a series of ignorant personal attacks on me, I've been taking the piss out of you. Colin, the worst culprit, I've reduced to quivering apoplexy. You may ask why? Well is it any worse than playground insults? Not at all, and I'm sure many have had a good laugh.
Anyone else beginning to feel slightly uncomfortable about observing a breakdown on the internet? He's read the Echo and then posts this!
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would have attempted a dignified exit but not old Martian. Obviously he's never taken the advice that when you're in a hole you need to stop digging!
The only sad thing about Martian's mental implosion is that we actually have Evertonian's like this; it's a warning to us all!!!!
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would have attempted a dignified exit but not old Martian. Obviously he's never taken the advice that when you're in a hole you need to stop digging!
The only sad thing about Martian's mental implosion is that we actually have Evertonian's like this; it's a warning to us all!!!!
Eric (680) ? What's a WUM?
WUM = wind-up merchant, excessive devils advocating to the Nth degree of deliberate obtusiveness just to provoke arguement ...aka shit stirrer just for the sake of it.
North of England slang; to mither (pronounced mythere) upset, disturb, bother for no good cause other than he can. 'He would mither a nest of rats.'
North of England slang; to mither (pronounced mythere) upset, disturb, bother for no good cause other than he can. 'He would mither a nest of rats.'
James; your mission, should you care to accept it is to is to read up on english slang. I suggest you google; viz profanisaurus
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456 Posted 21/02/2012 at 15:39:45
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