Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Kenwright saved again
169 Comments: A few weeks ago, the pressure was slowly being applied to Bill Kenwright. Blue Union protests, genuine fears of relegation and, frankly (from my point of view) a fear that we couldn't be guaranteed to beat anyone.
Things look so much better now... A good transfer window created optimism but the results of it haven't filtered through yet so that is still to come. Moyes has done it again; the pressure was on Kenwright and Moyes comes good. Earlier in the season, Moyes was shite and Kenwright stood right behind him.
They really are a double act and the result of this makes them almost immune from outside criticism. Victories over City and Chelsea, added to a good cup run, make criticism of Moyes look churlish at the very least.
So, what does someone who believes that the double act are slowly suffocating Everton do? Shut up enjoy the cup run? ? until the next shite start to the season? I suppose so...
Andy Crooks, Posted 29/02/2012 at 19:13:42
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What do you mean by...
1) Fears of relegation?
2) Results haven't filtered through?
3) 'Moyes has done it again; the pressure was on Kenwright and Moyes comes good. Earlier in the season, Moyes was shite and Kenwright stood right behind him'?
4) Double act?
Moyes suffocating the club with Europe in sight? Moyes is Kenwright's iron lung!
1) Fears of relegation?
2) Results haven't filtered through?
3) 'Moyes has done it again; the pressure was on Kenwright and Moyes comes good. Earlier in the season, Moyes was shite and Kenwright stood right behind him'?
4) Double act?
Moyes suffocating the club with Europe in sight? Moyes is Kenwright's iron lung!
You're quite right, Andy...
All is well again; a couple of wins and people forget the bad start, the fear of relegation that we worried about.
You're quite right that Moyes has saved Bill's Bacon again for the short term....
But we weren't really protesting about bad starts or relegation, were we... The protests were about the way the club is run, the debt, the fact that we have sold all our assets, Bellefield, Megastore, Finch Farm, Car Park...etc.
While the feelgood factor is around (and long may it continue) dreams of Wembley abound and Blue Union loses support, I am a member of the BU, and I know this is the Catch-22..
While things go well, people won't protest; it's OK now, they say... Till next season... when another player is sold to facilitate the debt...
The word you're looking for is Fickle... The Blue Union aren't Fickle... they are here for the long haul. Truth is, without them highlighting the mess we are in, we wouldn't've had the club responding in the January transfer window.
So we should put the change of fortunes at the moment down to BU applying pressure to the club... and we are all enjoying the results at the moment...
All is well again; a couple of wins and people forget the bad start, the fear of relegation that we worried about.
You're quite right that Moyes has saved Bill's Bacon again for the short term....
But we weren't really protesting about bad starts or relegation, were we... The protests were about the way the club is run, the debt, the fact that we have sold all our assets, Bellefield, Megastore, Finch Farm, Car Park...etc.
While the feelgood factor is around (and long may it continue) dreams of Wembley abound and Blue Union loses support, I am a member of the BU, and I know this is the Catch-22..
While things go well, people won't protest; it's OK now, they say... Till next season... when another player is sold to facilitate the debt...
The word you're looking for is Fickle... The Blue Union aren't Fickle... they are here for the long haul. Truth is, without them highlighting the mess we are in, we wouldn't've had the club responding in the January transfer window.
So we should put the change of fortunes at the moment down to BU applying pressure to the club... and we are all enjoying the results at the moment...
Shouldn't we at least wait until we lose a game or two before going back to the old double-act bashing routine?
We have been waiting all this time to see glimpses of the old Everton back on the pitch. Now is not the time to be moaning about things.
We have been waiting all this time to see glimpses of the old Everton back on the pitch. Now is not the time to be moaning about things.
Danny, that's the problem that Andy is highlighting.
Things haven't suddenly gotten all rosy in the boardroom and with the Club finances because we won a couple of games.
Come the summer we'll still have to sell a couple of players to pay off the banks, and we'll still Need Some New Owners.
Things haven't suddenly gotten all rosy in the boardroom and with the Club finances because we won a couple of games.
Come the summer we'll still have to sell a couple of players to pay off the banks, and we'll still Need Some New Owners.
Maybe it's because fans are supporters of a football club and not a business; eg, I wouldn't necessarily be feeling any better about Everton right now if, say, we had been able to hang on to Arteta but had achieved the same level of points.
Selling a player to bring two in isn't always necessarily a bad thing if the manager is clever.
Doesn't change the long term issues , no doubt some fans will yet again fail to acknowledge this
Doesn't change the long term issues , no doubt some fans will yet again fail to acknowledge this
Andy, having read through your post a couple of times I still can't see what point you are trying to make. Please enlighten me.
Are you saying that we would have been better off losing games and playing terrible football so we could heap more pressure on Kenwright and Moyes? If this is the case then it seems a very strange viewpoint for a supporter to have.
I raised a bit of a chuckle at the tongue-in-cheek remark that my brother posted on here last night. Sadly, it seems as though he has offended somebody and the post was removed. My brother and I hold different views on David Moyes but that's ok, we also hold different views on which single malt is the best.
Perhaps I should put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes to avoid hearing his point of view next time we bring the subject up.
Are you saying that we would have been better off losing games and playing terrible football so we could heap more pressure on Kenwright and Moyes? If this is the case then it seems a very strange viewpoint for a supporter to have.
I raised a bit of a chuckle at the tongue-in-cheek remark that my brother posted on here last night. Sadly, it seems as though he has offended somebody and the post was removed. My brother and I hold different views on David Moyes but that's ok, we also hold different views on which single malt is the best.
Perhaps I should put my fingers in my ears and close my eyes to avoid hearing his point of view next time we bring the subject up.
^the point he's making Shaun is that a couple of wins doesn't change the shit we are in and something still needs to be done about it.
Its all about the fickle and/or the gullible blind-faith brigade..... the mood will swing one way or the other depending on the last result or two. BK has been immeasurably fortunate to have had Moyes continually mask the basket case of a club that he has presided over. The most recent victories garnered from the last vestiges of a once decent side reinforced with a few loanies. Hardly indicative of solid foundations for the future!?
The same issues and major problems still exist.... the crazy contradiction is that if we win the cup or a few more victories BK will milk it for its worth to appease the fickle. If we lose he'll have no qualms in hanging Moyes out to dry...... this is the same fella who soon turned on his old mate Gregg. Once again he will play the faithfull blues for all its worth and the numpties will blame the wrong man. You saw it only a few wks ago with many blaming Moyes almost ahead of BK. Cup runs are great but let's face it even portsmouth won the cup as did brum..... where are they now?
The most inept board in our entire history...... cup run or not.
The same issues and major problems still exist.... the crazy contradiction is that if we win the cup or a few more victories BK will milk it for its worth to appease the fickle. If we lose he'll have no qualms in hanging Moyes out to dry...... this is the same fella who soon turned on his old mate Gregg. Once again he will play the faithfull blues for all its worth and the numpties will blame the wrong man. You saw it only a few wks ago with many blaming Moyes almost ahead of BK. Cup runs are great but let's face it even portsmouth won the cup as did brum..... where are they now?
The most inept board in our entire history...... cup run or not.
Eric, I agree with you whole heartedly that something does need to be done about it but I still can't agree with a fan bemoaning our recent (maybe temporary) upturn in performances. It just seems like strange logic to me.
Tom, I have read many of your articles and comments on here over the years and do you know what? I agree with almost everything that you write. It is clear as day that you care passionately about this club and you articulate this passion admirably. Having said that, there are many fans of this club that dont share your passion regarding the running of the club and the shenanigans that go on in the boardroom. They just want to turn up every other Saturday, watch the team win so they can feel good about reading the papers and watching sky or match of the day later on. They feel delighted when we win and feel like shit when we loose. To label these fans as fickle and gullible is unfair and is not a fitting remark for a man of your obvious intelligence to make. They just see the world a little different to you. We need both sets of fans. Those that want to see the big picture and those that just want to turn up and enjoy a game of football.
Tom, I have read many of your articles and comments on here over the years and do you know what? I agree with almost everything that you write. It is clear as day that you care passionately about this club and you articulate this passion admirably. Having said that, there are many fans of this club that dont share your passion regarding the running of the club and the shenanigans that go on in the boardroom. They just want to turn up every other Saturday, watch the team win so they can feel good about reading the papers and watching sky or match of the day later on. They feel delighted when we win and feel like shit when we loose. To label these fans as fickle and gullible is unfair and is not a fitting remark for a man of your obvious intelligence to make. They just see the world a little different to you. We need both sets of fans. Those that want to see the big picture and those that just want to turn up and enjoy a game of football.
Fickle football fans are nothing new and certainly not unique to Everton. You just need to read some read or listen to some of the comments from Arsenal fans this season.
But football has changed and the days of chairmen getting away with murder in the boardroom if things are ok on the pitch have gone. I believe that HMRC are going to hit football hard over the next few months and if we are one of the clubs that had been playing silly beggars to avoid paying tax then everything could come crashing down around our ears overnight a la Rangers.
But football has changed and the days of chairmen getting away with murder in the boardroom if things are ok on the pitch have gone. I believe that HMRC are going to hit football hard over the next few months and if we are one of the clubs that had been playing silly beggars to avoid paying tax then everything could come crashing down around our ears overnight a la Rangers.
oops. that should have read "feel like shit when we lose". (Before some clever dick point it out)
Robby how is the BU responsible in any way for the January transfer window? You said yourself that they were protesting against the running of the club and its assets not results. You can't therefore take the credit for an upturn of results.Do you really think Moyes was happy to sail along with the squad he had until he saw a few protests at a couple of games?
The admission that the BU has lost support on the back of just a few wins unfortunately shows that some of its members are indeed what you calimt hem not to be - 'fickle'. Protesting when the results are bad and then happy that they made Moyes buy a striker in january.
The admission that the BU has lost support on the back of just a few wins unfortunately shows that some of its members are indeed what you calimt hem not to be - 'fickle'. Protesting when the results are bad and then happy that they made Moyes buy a striker in january.
The real problem is that the players who have freshened things up are all on loan. Landon Donovan (6 assists in 8 games) has already gone back. Can we afford to keep SIr Royston Drenthe, Peanuts and Denis? Doubtful. So come July we are back to the same position. The cup run and the decent football are great but these players are sticking plasters over the gaping wound that is Kenwright's mismanagement. The root cause of the problem remains the same and until that is addressed we will not move forward. Kenwright out.
In fact thinking about it, this is very much Kenwright's way or working. He lacks any meaningful strategy so instead he jumps from one short term survival stunt to the next. No money? Take out short-term loan against next year's TV money from some outfit in the BVI. A BU protest? generate rumours of three possible buyers. Team playing badly? Get in a couple of loanees to see us through to the end of the season and we will worry about what to do when they leave only when they have left. It is short term, leaping from one crisis to the next with quick fixes and no strategic development.
Shaun, i agree that I really haven't made my point as intended.:
Earlier in the season I said that I was beginning to feel sorry for Moyes as it was obvious that the players simply weren't good enough. I was wrong, they weren't good enough in the autumn but they seem to be in the spring. The same every year.
Now, of course I'll take that ahead of being crap all year round and being relegated but why must it be that way. In the absence of anything happening off the field then our only way forward is to finish as high as possible. With a better start against teams we are better than we could actually have had an outside chance of a champions league place.
I am as pleased as any one that David Moyes has turned it round again, the alternative is unthinkable. However, the by product of this is to undoubtedly take the heat of Kenwright and maintain the status quo. It is the Evertonian's dilemma.
Earlier in the season I said that I was beginning to feel sorry for Moyes as it was obvious that the players simply weren't good enough. I was wrong, they weren't good enough in the autumn but they seem to be in the spring. The same every year.
Now, of course I'll take that ahead of being crap all year round and being relegated but why must it be that way. In the absence of anything happening off the field then our only way forward is to finish as high as possible. With a better start against teams we are better than we could actually have had an outside chance of a champions league place.
I am as pleased as any one that David Moyes has turned it round again, the alternative is unthinkable. However, the by product of this is to undoubtedly take the heat of Kenwright and maintain the status quo. It is the Evertonian's dilemma.
Shaun, I don't think Andy is bemoaning the fact that we've won a few games. He's bemoaning the fact that it changes nothing and that something still needs to be done but the criticism will die down while fans are happy with results
Tom Hughes 703 ( and Andy at the top ) spot on. We've had 3 decent performances all season and the rest have been shite.
Moyes picked the team and how they play FOR EVERY SINGLE ONE.
If the Moyes of Fulham City and Chelsea turns up, that means more than likely the result of those games will turn up.
But if the Keep it tight and pinch one turns up and we get a repeat of the first QPR game listen to the howls for his head start up...and with good reason.
Kenwright and Moyes, Employer and Employee. If one gets pissed off with the other and quits or gets sacked there is nothing the other can do. Of course they come as a pair. Moyes may get the cash side of the deal But Kenwright gains the more intangible benefit of still fooling most of the people most of the time.
I hope the third part of Mr Lincoln's saying come to pass soon.
They are the Dr Doolittle beast the pushmepullyou
Moyes picked the team and how they play FOR EVERY SINGLE ONE.
If the Moyes of Fulham City and Chelsea turns up, that means more than likely the result of those games will turn up.
But if the Keep it tight and pinch one turns up and we get a repeat of the first QPR game listen to the howls for his head start up...and with good reason.
Kenwright and Moyes, Employer and Employee. If one gets pissed off with the other and quits or gets sacked there is nothing the other can do. Of course they come as a pair. Moyes may get the cash side of the deal But Kenwright gains the more intangible benefit of still fooling most of the people most of the time.
I hope the third part of Mr Lincoln's saying come to pass soon.
They are the Dr Doolittle beast the pushmepullyou
I disagree that the recent upturn shouldn't be taken as a positive. We had a very good transfer window and we are on a 7 match unbeaten run and into the cup 1/4 finals, we are unlikely to get investment or be sold to anybody who has the money we need to really turn things round so the only way we are going to improve is to establish a positive winning attitude in the club, the team and the very small group of our supporters who are mired in negativity. This is exactly how our resurgence in 1983/4 started, a crap team, a patently crap manager and without a pot to piss in and then we started winning. Our chances of recovery this way is infinitely more probable than Bungalow Bill selling to a billionaire or letting a group of suits in to show him how to do his job.
The fans will feed off a winning team, the ground will be rocking and the team will then feed off the fans, we will all buy season tickets, next year we will win at Anfield and Old Trafford and 2014 into the Champions league and win it. All debts gone and Bungalow Bill given the freedom of Liverpool and driving round the city in a coach pulled by the BU. I just think it could happen
The fans will feed off a winning team, the ground will be rocking and the team will then feed off the fans, we will all buy season tickets, next year we will win at Anfield and Old Trafford and 2014 into the Champions league and win it. All debts gone and Bungalow Bill given the freedom of Liverpool and driving round the city in a coach pulled by the BU. I just think it could happen
Andy's point is valid and well made: a lot of fans assume that the crisis is over and that dear old D.M. has turned the club round. He also implies ,correctly, that a couple of good results are , in fact, masking the structural unsoundness of the whole setup. What is more important is that these good results, cheered by us all I hasten to add, have yet again allowed Kenwright to slip out of the spotlight. The Blue Union is essentially are best hope for getting a little transparency and awareness.
Tom Hughes is spot on
The wrong guy has all too often been blamed and by blaming him, many internet fans have somehow managed to let the real culprit of the hook.
I still have memories of Kenwright Milking our cup win at Stamford Bridge for all it was worth . .really took the edge off a brilliant day.
The iceberg is no longer dead ahead, The funds made available to Moyes in recent years would suggest it has already hit, spending 5m of the Aterta money on Jelevic disguises nothing.
Unless we have change in the boardroom, our clubs existance will depend entirely on the managers abitlity to bail us out.
Things havent improved, the manager is just working harder than ever with that bucket.
He cant keep doing it forever
The wrong guy has all too often been blamed and by blaming him, many internet fans have somehow managed to let the real culprit of the hook.
I still have memories of Kenwright Milking our cup win at Stamford Bridge for all it was worth . .really took the edge off a brilliant day.
The iceberg is no longer dead ahead, The funds made available to Moyes in recent years would suggest it has already hit, spending 5m of the Aterta money on Jelevic disguises nothing.
Unless we have change in the boardroom, our clubs existance will depend entirely on the managers abitlity to bail us out.
Things havent improved, the manager is just working harder than ever with that bucket.
He cant keep doing it forever
The sentiment in the OP is right, IMO, but the expression and delivery are abit off.
We are in the same shite we were at the start of the season. Our financial condition is perilous, we will keep having to sell players over the next few transfer windows and rolling over our debt at eye watering rates of interest, sucking cash out of the company.
I am enjoying the current run and hope the team goes a long way in the cup, but BK deserves no credit if we do go on and reach the final.
That will be done solely to the players and the manager.
BK out.
We are in the same shite we were at the start of the season. Our financial condition is perilous, we will keep having to sell players over the next few transfer windows and rolling over our debt at eye watering rates of interest, sucking cash out of the company.
I am enjoying the current run and hope the team goes a long way in the cup, but BK deserves no credit if we do go on and reach the final.
That will be done solely to the players and the manager.
BK out.
Point taken Eric and Andy has since clarified what the main point of his article was. However a dichotomy still exist which you yourself have alluded to. If results do continue to improve and we end up winning the cup and even challenging for fourth place (Hey its not impossible as there are plenty of points still available). Then naturally the criticism will die down. Should this not be a case for celebration or are we going to bemoan our good fortune as an opportunity lost to stick the knife into Kewnright. Don't jump down my throat I am not attempting to give Kenwright my support. But if Moyes somehow manages to pull off this particular miracle then it is going to be increasingly difficult to justify to a large group of Evertonians that change is needed. That is the dichotomy that I think Andy is talking about.
James,
I said the upturn in fortunes on the playing side directly affect people's desire to protest or not.
Not mine or Blue Union members...
The pressure that was brought in January, by the Blue Union, I believe (opinion, dare I say it) resulted in the transfers.
So yes, I believe the BU can take credit albeit small, for the upturn.
I said the upturn in fortunes on the playing side directly affect people's desire to protest or not.
Not mine or Blue Union members...
The pressure that was brought in January, by the Blue Union, I believe (opinion, dare I say it) resulted in the transfers.
So yes, I believe the BU can take credit albeit small, for the upturn.
Shaun,
The problem is i'm very wary of the type of fickle-mindedness that allows real failure to either go unnoticed, ignored or worse still even praised.
There have been several very serious mistakes to the point of blatent negligence. The result has left the club placed in the most precarious financial state of its whole history. I don't believe that this should be allowed to be masked by the mood swings of those that alternate so readily between love and hate with every good or bad pass, or good and bad result.
The "ignorance is bliss" option can no longer apply when you're on the edge of the abyss. For the vast majority of my 40+yrs attending GP, I too have been the passive supporter type, rarely if ever feeling the need to comment adversely..... however the gravity of the situation and the recurring cock-ups, missed opportunities and lies have forced me and many more to protest. That cannot be allowed to be detracted from by either the easily pleased with bipolar tendancies, or the eternally ignorant..... both of which make up sizeable proportions of every fanbase. It's all about being consistent in your argument.
The problem is i'm very wary of the type of fickle-mindedness that allows real failure to either go unnoticed, ignored or worse still even praised.
There have been several very serious mistakes to the point of blatent negligence. The result has left the club placed in the most precarious financial state of its whole history. I don't believe that this should be allowed to be masked by the mood swings of those that alternate so readily between love and hate with every good or bad pass, or good and bad result.
The "ignorance is bliss" option can no longer apply when you're on the edge of the abyss. For the vast majority of my 40+yrs attending GP, I too have been the passive supporter type, rarely if ever feeling the need to comment adversely..... however the gravity of the situation and the recurring cock-ups, missed opportunities and lies have forced me and many more to protest. That cannot be allowed to be detracted from by either the easily pleased with bipolar tendancies, or the eternally ignorant..... both of which make up sizeable proportions of every fanbase. It's all about being consistent in your argument.
Dave #717 "spending 5m of the Aterta money on Jelevic disguises nothing."
The Arteta money went to the bank, we sold Bily and Saha to raise funds for Jelevic.
The Arteta money went to the bank, we sold Bily and Saha to raise funds for Jelevic.
Shaun, a dichotomy indeed but just remember any success is in spite of Kenwright, not because of him.
You are right though that there an 'ignorant majority' that only care about results and not about the business side of the Club and will wonder why there are protests when we are winning.
They will also still be wondering how a club like Everton ended up in the Championship or in administration.
You are right though that there an 'ignorant majority' that only care about results and not about the business side of the Club and will wonder why there are protests when we are winning.
They will also still be wondering how a club like Everton ended up in the Championship or in administration.
Eric
I suspect these transfers are not cash transactions.
I`m not sure which £5M of the £23M we have pulled in since January last season but, given we didn't get anything for Saha, I doubt he had anything to do with it.
I suspect these transfers are not cash transactions.
I`m not sure which £5M of the £23M we have pulled in since January last season but, given we didn't get anything for Saha, I doubt he had anything to do with it.
Supporting a football club for me is about watching 22 blokes kick a ball about for 90 minutes and wanting the blokes wearing Everton shirts to win and enjoying it when they do - this 'I hope we lose to get rid of Moyes/Kenwright/' is to me as far away from authentic support as you can get - in fact, I'd ask... why bother supporting a team if you want them to lose?
No doubt I'll now be cast as a 'Moyes apologist' 'Kenwright dupe' or whatever other dull minded cliche is applied to those who don't support the party line or merely repeat the drivel the editor's blistering intellect has deemed acceptable comment this week
Shaun, Lagavulin is a Islay whiskey and therefore working mans drink - not like that poncified highland stuff you quaff ... as any fule kno
No doubt I'll now be cast as a 'Moyes apologist' 'Kenwright dupe' or whatever other dull minded cliche is applied to those who don't support the party line or merely repeat the drivel the editor's blistering intellect has deemed acceptable comment this week
Shaun, Lagavulin is a Islay whiskey and therefore working mans drink - not like that poncified highland stuff you quaff ... as any fule kno
Kevin, I have never wanted Everton to lose. Being relegated is not an option for getting rid of Kenwright.
Eric
From my view I could say that I see an ignorant minority who believe that Everton are capable of achieving the unachievable with current resources, that Everton must be successful because they once were a big club and the Motto says "only the best" and that Bungalow Bill is stopping the club being sold to the billionaires that are queuing up to pump J500 mm of their own money into a hole in the road. Depends on how narrow your vision is really
From my view I could say that I see an ignorant minority who believe that Everton are capable of achieving the unachievable with current resources, that Everton must be successful because they once were a big club and the Motto says "only the best" and that Bungalow Bill is stopping the club being sold to the billionaires that are queuing up to pump J500 mm of their own money into a hole in the road. Depends on how narrow your vision is really
Martin,
I see an ignorant fool who keeps avoiding the fact that current resources are artificially low due to chronic mismanagement. I also see an Idiot trying to peddle lies and muddy the debate with untruths attributed to others.
Many different people have gone to great effort in an attempt to create ideas. schemes and projects that may increase these resources while the club sits on it's hands hoping for a white knight, one you yourself admit isn't coming.
Imagine that attitude prevailed when Houlding kicked us off Analfield and Goodison Park needed building? We wouldn't have a fucking team to support.
One side of this argument is attempting to uphold the traditions this club was built upon, the other is pissing all over them.
Then again you already knew that!
I see an ignorant fool who keeps avoiding the fact that current resources are artificially low due to chronic mismanagement. I also see an Idiot trying to peddle lies and muddy the debate with untruths attributed to others.
Many different people have gone to great effort in an attempt to create ideas. schemes and projects that may increase these resources while the club sits on it's hands hoping for a white knight, one you yourself admit isn't coming.
Imagine that attitude prevailed when Houlding kicked us off Analfield and Goodison Park needed building? We wouldn't have a fucking team to support.
One side of this argument is attempting to uphold the traditions this club was built upon, the other is pissing all over them.
Then again you already knew that!
Andy, what some people on this site forget at times is supporting Everton for a lot of people isn't conditional on which puppet master is pulling the strings at present time.
I've lived through the 'Sir John Moores' reign, Phillip Carter, Johnson and Kenwright and to be quite honest, apart from the multi-millionnaire John Moores they've all been crap.
Pip Carter was at the helm during the 1990s demise of the club and did bugger all as our stock fell after Heysel and crucially just prior to the setting up of the Premier League; Johnson was taking us over a precipice re finances; Kenwright is skint and either can't sell the club or wont...
Apart from withholding my money and writing the odd snotty letter to BK- there's nothing I can do as a supporter to change things... walking up and down pointing holes in the air with my finger and waving placards isn't going to change anything.
However, come 3 O'clock on a Saturday (or whatever time our lords and masters at Sky TV deem fit for a kick off) and my support is loud, it's vocal and it's unconditional... and I've no time whatsoever for 'supporters' who would rather we lost to fulfil some half baked ambition about getting rid of Moyes and Kenwright - to me it defeats the whole object of supporting a team.
Sorry if this is blunt - but to me it's similar to hoping your car breaks down so you can change the oil...
I've lived through the 'Sir John Moores' reign, Phillip Carter, Johnson and Kenwright and to be quite honest, apart from the multi-millionnaire John Moores they've all been crap.
Pip Carter was at the helm during the 1990s demise of the club and did bugger all as our stock fell after Heysel and crucially just prior to the setting up of the Premier League; Johnson was taking us over a precipice re finances; Kenwright is skint and either can't sell the club or wont...
Apart from withholding my money and writing the odd snotty letter to BK- there's nothing I can do as a supporter to change things... walking up and down pointing holes in the air with my finger and waving placards isn't going to change anything.
However, come 3 O'clock on a Saturday (or whatever time our lords and masters at Sky TV deem fit for a kick off) and my support is loud, it's vocal and it's unconditional... and I've no time whatsoever for 'supporters' who would rather we lost to fulfil some half baked ambition about getting rid of Moyes and Kenwright - to me it defeats the whole object of supporting a team.
Sorry if this is blunt - but to me it's similar to hoping your car breaks down so you can change the oil...
Yes,it does look like the heat is off Kenwright for the moment.
What i'm dreading is that if we get to Wembley this clown will come out hiding and start hogging the limelight and throwing himself infront of the cameras like he did in 2009.
Truely sickening considering he's been in hiding all season with us having a bad time.
What i'm dreading is that if we get to Wembley this clown will come out hiding and start hogging the limelight and throwing himself infront of the cameras like he did in 2009.
Truely sickening considering he's been in hiding all season with us having a bad time.
Martin..... once again you've managed to contradict yourself in one thread. No one expects us to be successful because of our history and certainly not because of our motto. However, we do expect a board that given our size of fanbase built due to that history that can actually deliver.
You reveal your true stance by continuing to praise BK with faint condemnation. You belong to his school of fantasy while the school of science lays in ruins. Your previous posts heralds a new 83/84 revival being on the cards....... now you say we cannot expect anything with our resources. Make your mind up! In 83 we could still compete in the transfer market with almost anyone and had one of, if not the best stadiums in the UK. We didn't have to sell everything that wasn't nailed down just to keep the banks off our backs. If you truly believe we are in anything remotely similar condition now i'd suggest you're breathing too much H2S over there.
You reveal your true stance by continuing to praise BK with faint condemnation. You belong to his school of fantasy while the school of science lays in ruins. Your previous posts heralds a new 83/84 revival being on the cards....... now you say we cannot expect anything with our resources. Make your mind up! In 83 we could still compete in the transfer market with almost anyone and had one of, if not the best stadiums in the UK. We didn't have to sell everything that wasn't nailed down just to keep the banks off our backs. If you truly believe we are in anything remotely similar condition now i'd suggest you're breathing too much H2S over there.
Kevin,
The lads of the BU attend all games everywhere and shout as loud as anyone. THEY DO NOT WANT THE TEAM TO LOSE so please don't accuse otherwise. When the few thousand fans flooded the pitch against coventry and chanted we want johnson out you can rest assured he knew his time was up. The over-riding issue remains..... under the current board the future is bleak and decline inevitable..... what kind of supporter accepts that?
The lads of the BU attend all games everywhere and shout as loud as anyone. THEY DO NOT WANT THE TEAM TO LOSE so please don't accuse otherwise. When the few thousand fans flooded the pitch against coventry and chanted we want johnson out you can rest assured he knew his time was up. The over-riding issue remains..... under the current board the future is bleak and decline inevitable..... what kind of supporter accepts that?
Also got that glaring contradiction, Tom - I think Martin would argue with his own reflection.
I've been "real-worlded" and "got-realed" in the past for using the 84+ side as an example of a proper team full of captains, under an innovative, tactically-astute and motivated management team being far greater than its parts.
My mantra of "take 1 ex-binman, a Lpool reserve, 2 old crocks..." invariably draws retorts such as "it's all about money now, Clough couldn't it do in this era, different playing field back then".
How many Ls in bollocks?
I've been "real-worlded" and "got-realed" in the past for using the 84+ side as an example of a proper team full of captains, under an innovative, tactically-astute and motivated management team being far greater than its parts.
My mantra of "take 1 ex-binman, a Lpool reserve, 2 old crocks..." invariably draws retorts such as "it's all about money now, Clough couldn't it do in this era, different playing field back then".
How many Ls in bollocks?
Phil,
I believe good coaching, a positive mentality and an eye for a player can get you a long way further than resources suggest but, I don't think we will ever see us win the league while Chelsea and Man City are buying everything in sight.
I believe good coaching, a positive mentality and an eye for a player can get you a long way further than resources suggest but, I don't think we will ever see us win the league while Chelsea and Man City are buying everything in sight.
Tom, can you point to where I suggested the BU supporters wanted Everton to lose...
Or are you using a 'straw man' type argument.
Re supporter activism - it it makes people happy walking up and down chanting slogans thats up to them - me, I prefer writing letters... and both are probably taken equally seriously
Re your final point - what sort of supporter accepts Mangnussun? (West Ham) What sort of supporter accepts Gaydamak? (Portsmouth) What sort of supporter accepts Ken Bates? (Leeds) Reynolds (Darlington) etc, etc, etc...
In an ideal world we'd have Arab Princes and Russian Mafia dons queuing up to rescue our club - but we don't live in an ideal world... we live in L4 4EL in a run down neighbourhood with limited support beyond Merseyside...
Get real
Or are you using a 'straw man' type argument.
Re supporter activism - it it makes people happy walking up and down chanting slogans thats up to them - me, I prefer writing letters... and both are probably taken equally seriously
Re your final point - what sort of supporter accepts Mangnussun? (West Ham) What sort of supporter accepts Gaydamak? (Portsmouth) What sort of supporter accepts Ken Bates? (Leeds) Reynolds (Darlington) etc, etc, etc...
In an ideal world we'd have Arab Princes and Russian Mafia dons queuing up to rescue our club - but we don't live in an ideal world... we live in L4 4EL in a run down neighbourhood with limited support beyond Merseyside...
Get real
Tom
We are what we are at the moment. We are a declining club but we have been declining for decades now, we have had equally dreadful boards and we have had far worse teams. We are in worse financial position now than we have ever been but because the game has financially changed dramatically in BKs tenure and the board has unsuccessfully tried to maintain our status by borrowing and selling assets.
I saw Kendal say in interviews that EFC was running on a wing and a prayer when he was first manager and that they had to borrow to buy but borrowing was far easier then. There's just been the worst financial disaster since the depression and banks won't lend to Everton.
My first post about Everton becoming successful was an attempt at humour, I'm sorry if you don't have any. My post above is a response to the ignorant majority comment.?
I'll say again, I'm no supporter of BK and the board, I think EFC has been managed badly but I can also see why they did what they did. I believe that they have at all times had Everton's interest at heart. I support what they are doing now even selling the players they did I can see no alternative to selling our best playing assets to repay debt and buy players. Moyes is rebuilding the team albeit with too many loanees but we may be able to keep the best on permanet deals. We are doing well and we need to work and nourish these green shoots of recovery.
Would you disagree with any of the following comments. We don't have a buyer and it's unlikely we will get one; we don't have an investor ditto, BK is unlikely to hand over power to a group of professionals imposed on him?
If you agree then you'll perhaps you'll see my point that BK is what we have and we need to get on with it. If we can sell to the right person then I will be really happy but until then I will fully support the club. I genuinely believe that BK wants to sell but if he doesn't what?
Do you see people putting forward different views as a problem? many do and it's sad. Do you feel that this board should be only a BU echo chamber or a forum where Evertonians can raise their opinions and share their views
We are what we are at the moment. We are a declining club but we have been declining for decades now, we have had equally dreadful boards and we have had far worse teams. We are in worse financial position now than we have ever been but because the game has financially changed dramatically in BKs tenure and the board has unsuccessfully tried to maintain our status by borrowing and selling assets.
I saw Kendal say in interviews that EFC was running on a wing and a prayer when he was first manager and that they had to borrow to buy but borrowing was far easier then. There's just been the worst financial disaster since the depression and banks won't lend to Everton.
My first post about Everton becoming successful was an attempt at humour, I'm sorry if you don't have any. My post above is a response to the ignorant majority comment.?
I'll say again, I'm no supporter of BK and the board, I think EFC has been managed badly but I can also see why they did what they did. I believe that they have at all times had Everton's interest at heart. I support what they are doing now even selling the players they did I can see no alternative to selling our best playing assets to repay debt and buy players. Moyes is rebuilding the team albeit with too many loanees but we may be able to keep the best on permanet deals. We are doing well and we need to work and nourish these green shoots of recovery.
Would you disagree with any of the following comments. We don't have a buyer and it's unlikely we will get one; we don't have an investor ditto, BK is unlikely to hand over power to a group of professionals imposed on him?
If you agree then you'll perhaps you'll see my point that BK is what we have and we need to get on with it. If we can sell to the right person then I will be really happy but until then I will fully support the club. I genuinely believe that BK wants to sell but if he doesn't what?
Do you see people putting forward different views as a problem? many do and it's sad. Do you feel that this board should be only a BU echo chamber or a forum where Evertonians can raise their opinions and share their views
Agreed, Stephen in that the rich clubs can afford to be wasteful and the extra quality players they have give them a decisive edge re injuries, suspensions etc. But they still have to gel consistently and perform as a team; if City get this right then even Utd and Chelsea can kiss goodbye to the Title for the foreseeable future.
I still hope, in the short-term, Everton will be able to get in amongst these toffs and give them bloody noses more often, while we await any levelling of resources, however that might happen. So much, at the moment, depends on Moyes's ability to spot and improve players and the Academy to produce talent.
I still hope, in the short-term, Everton will be able to get in amongst these toffs and give them bloody noses more often, while we await any levelling of resources, however that might happen. So much, at the moment, depends on Moyes's ability to spot and improve players and the Academy to produce talent.
Kenwright MUST sell the club to any of the legions of potential suitors who are desperate to acquire Everton.
Kevin. You carry on writing your letters and when you haven't got a club left to support, you can write letters to Martin Mason.
I think you two will get on like a fuckin' house on fire.
I think you two will get on like a fuckin' house on fire.
Which double act do you think they resemble? I'd go for Steptoe and Son. Two men spending their days dealing in has-been goods, without two pennies to scratch their arse with; the once fine yard having seen better days. The younger of the two men resenting the elder one because he thinks he can do much better elsewhere. The elder of the two keeps him back and promises him the Earth. They both spend their days wallowing in mediocrity scraping a living, occasionally turning the odd bit of garbage into a decent profit.
I think the problem was that before the recent upturn in form, there was too much focus on David Moyes and his failures, instead of focusing on BK and his failures; even though BK's failings directly impact Moyes's ability to do his job effectively.
Though Moyes's over-conservative approach is definitely worthy of criticism, concentrating on whether he is the right manager or not effectively meant that criticism was about our performances and not about the deeper underlying issues. Those are systemic issues with the way the club is run and I think they'll make it an impossible long term environment for *any* manager to achieve success (even if a new boss provided a short term boost).
Though Moyes's over-conservative approach is definitely worthy of criticism, concentrating on whether he is the right manager or not effectively meant that criticism was about our performances and not about the deeper underlying issues. Those are systemic issues with the way the club is run and I think they'll make it an impossible long term environment for *any* manager to achieve success (even if a new boss provided a short term boost).
Martin,
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but if you are going to promote it, you also have to back it up with facts...... you haven't once.
We are what we are for several reasons..... We may have been poorly run in the past, but at no point were we so low in the pecking order as we are now. You admit it yourself. We have been dreadfully mismanaged. You choose to accept. I don't! Owners and directors have been forced out of several clubs with far richer candidates than BK sent packing, and it will happen again, so I really don't feel the need to meekly accept the unacceptable. I do not believe that persistent lying to the fanbase and banning of AGM's can ever be construed as acting in the club's best interests. I also do not believe that no-one has been or is interested in buying EFC..... IMO it's simply impossible given the fact that nearly ALL other clubs have changed hands in recent yrs. Clubs of every status.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but if you are going to promote it, you also have to back it up with facts...... you haven't once.
We are what we are for several reasons..... We may have been poorly run in the past, but at no point were we so low in the pecking order as we are now. You admit it yourself. We have been dreadfully mismanaged. You choose to accept. I don't! Owners and directors have been forced out of several clubs with far richer candidates than BK sent packing, and it will happen again, so I really don't feel the need to meekly accept the unacceptable. I do not believe that persistent lying to the fanbase and banning of AGM's can ever be construed as acting in the club's best interests. I also do not believe that no-one has been or is interested in buying EFC..... IMO it's simply impossible given the fact that nearly ALL other clubs have changed hands in recent yrs. Clubs of every status.
Support the team, oppose stagnation. Says it all for me.
When the team is playing well, they will have the full support of the fanbase and Goodison will be right behind the team. If they start playing shit, there will probably be a few boos, groans etc and the fans will let the team know how they feel.
The same should apply to the board. If they suddenly announce that they have managed to secure investment, that our future is secure, the debt has been greatly reduced, (anything to improve our current position really), they will get the plaudits.
However, if nothing changes - no new investment, no plans to improve the ground, more player sales to stay afloat, increased debt - well I'm sorry, but they deserve a bit of flak.
As ever, we always have to put the interests of the club first, and I don't think anyone would honestly like to see protests when we have a chance of getting to Wembley in the next few weeks. But if we end up in a situation where we have nothing left to play for in the last few games of the season, the tempo should be turned up again.
But let's not forget, even if we win the FA Cup, it will be a sticking plaster over a gaping wound.
When the team is playing well, they will have the full support of the fanbase and Goodison will be right behind the team. If they start playing shit, there will probably be a few boos, groans etc and the fans will let the team know how they feel.
The same should apply to the board. If they suddenly announce that they have managed to secure investment, that our future is secure, the debt has been greatly reduced, (anything to improve our current position really), they will get the plaudits.
However, if nothing changes - no new investment, no plans to improve the ground, more player sales to stay afloat, increased debt - well I'm sorry, but they deserve a bit of flak.
As ever, we always have to put the interests of the club first, and I don't think anyone would honestly like to see protests when we have a chance of getting to Wembley in the next few weeks. But if we end up in a situation where we have nothing left to play for in the last few games of the season, the tempo should be turned up again.
But let's not forget, even if we win the FA Cup, it will be a sticking plaster over a gaping wound.
Colin - if your post is typical of the the level of debate you're capable of you'll be better off on this website
http://www.barbie.com/activities/fun_games/
Have fun
http://www.barbie.com/activities/fun_games/
Have fun
Kevin,
You suggested that those who supported BU (ie those marching with placards and waving their hands in the air) wanted us to lose to get rid of BK and DM. Firstly the BU haven't advocated getting rid of DM, and they whole heartedly support the team. You are attempting misrepresent them yet accuse me of a strawman argument?
You then said it was akin to wanting your car to run out of oil to instigate change.... whereas the reality is: you're quite happy to drive around in our valuable classic with that oil-light glaring at you..... and the engine screaming! BK hasn't got any oil and doesn't even know where to put it in anycase. He has turned us into a scrapper in a few short years..... but he is of course the best fella to sell us!!!!
You suggested that those who supported BU (ie those marching with placards and waving their hands in the air) wanted us to lose to get rid of BK and DM. Firstly the BU haven't advocated getting rid of DM, and they whole heartedly support the team. You are attempting misrepresent them yet accuse me of a strawman argument?
You then said it was akin to wanting your car to run out of oil to instigate change.... whereas the reality is: you're quite happy to drive around in our valuable classic with that oil-light glaring at you..... and the engine screaming! BK hasn't got any oil and doesn't even know where to put it in anycase. He has turned us into a scrapper in a few short years..... but he is of course the best fella to sell us!!!!
Phil,
I live in hope for a Man Utd style golden generation, It's the only way we will get anywhere. Whether we could keep hold of them while we are so poorly managed is another matter.
I live in hope for a Man Utd style golden generation, It's the only way we will get anywhere. Whether we could keep hold of them while we are so poorly managed is another matter.
Tom ? no I didn't, read what I wrote instead of reading what you 'think' I wrote. I didn't even mention David Moyes ? you did.
I shouldn't need to qualify my position, but just to make it absolutely clear, I am no fan of Bill Kenwright, in fact my hostility towards his tenure at Goodison has been long documented on this board and others ? from 'Fortress Sport Fund' right the way through to 'Destination Kirkby'. I do not think he's the bloke to take Everton forward ? I don't think he even thinks that.
Though, given the level and the substance of some of the ludicrous criticism he gets from some quarters, I'm half-inclined to change my views. Why?
People like you Tom ? who seem incapable of making a coherent argument without resorting to sophistry (or as it used to be known - 'making shit up').
I shouldn't need to qualify my position, but just to make it absolutely clear, I am no fan of Bill Kenwright, in fact my hostility towards his tenure at Goodison has been long documented on this board and others ? from 'Fortress Sport Fund' right the way through to 'Destination Kirkby'. I do not think he's the bloke to take Everton forward ? I don't think he even thinks that.
Though, given the level and the substance of some of the ludicrous criticism he gets from some quarters, I'm half-inclined to change my views. Why?
People like you Tom ? who seem incapable of making a coherent argument without resorting to sophistry (or as it used to be known - 'making shit up').
Kevin...... I suggest you read your own post again. Personally I can't imagine how any amount of "made up shit" would change my opinion on BK.... perhaps you are another who praises by faint condemnation.
Ludicrous criticism? Where? People can list almost endless lists of cock-ups..... anyone of which would've seen a thousand assassins behind every grassy knoll between Park Foods and the Park End if Johnson had've been the perpetrator.
If I've misinterpreted your post I apologise.... but if you're so easily turned into BK supporter, I would have to question the sincerity of your convictions.
If I've misinterpreted your post I apologise.... but if you're so easily turned into BK supporter, I would have to question the sincerity of your convictions.
Tom, to be fair to you - I can see how my post 742 could be construed as a condemnation of Blue Union - it wasn't. I just feel that their energies are wasted.
I can also see at the outside that I was associating them (BU) with the kind of supporter who wants the team to lose to further some undefined, wooly minded goal where an oil magnate or silicone valley whizz kid is so impressed with our losing they stump up the asking price - I wasn't, I've come across Evertonians who want us to get beat - one of the most prolific moaners/realists (delete where appropriate) even wrote it on here a couple of years ago before a derby game (I'll not name him - that would be harsh)
However, the original post can be read as a piece regretful in tone and character, regarding the fact that we seem to have turned a bit of a corner and this will be detrimental to the long term aim of getting rid of BK...
I've heard blues condemning other blues when we win who have the temerity to celebrate as 'deluded' 'eyes shut to reality' 'Kenwright's poodles' etc...
Well, fuck 'em, is what I say - I go the match to see us win - fuck the long term implications. Long may we keep winning.
I can also see at the outside that I was associating them (BU) with the kind of supporter who wants the team to lose to further some undefined, wooly minded goal where an oil magnate or silicone valley whizz kid is so impressed with our losing they stump up the asking price - I wasn't, I've come across Evertonians who want us to get beat - one of the most prolific moaners/realists (delete where appropriate) even wrote it on here a couple of years ago before a derby game (I'll not name him - that would be harsh)
However, the original post can be read as a piece regretful in tone and character, regarding the fact that we seem to have turned a bit of a corner and this will be detrimental to the long term aim of getting rid of BK...
I've heard blues condemning other blues when we win who have the temerity to celebrate as 'deluded' 'eyes shut to reality' 'Kenwright's poodles' etc...
Well, fuck 'em, is what I say - I go the match to see us win - fuck the long term implications. Long may we keep winning.
You can paint over rust and it might look good, but after a while the rust spreads and shows even more then before.
That is kind of what is going on with Everton right now.
Loan players cover the need for something to be glad about, but they are only loan players, they will return back to their clubs, just like Landon Donovan.
We do not have the money to buy Drenthe,Straqualursi and Pienaar.
Even Drenthe who is out of contract we can not afford, because of his sign on fees and wages.
That is the cold hard truth, you can deal with it or not, but the only good thing is we have the BU behind us, pressing Kenwright for transfers, and in there lies our hope.
The ultra gamble is to get to Europe this season, so that MAYBE we can sign Drenthe, Straqualursi and perhaps Pienaar if Harry Redknapp lowers his price.
Now you know.
I myself am hoping for a cup final minimum and a 6-7th place finish.
Problem is once Anichebe, Osman and Jagielka is back the ones that are on this winning streak will be dropped thanks to David Moyes and his strange thinking.
I have always felt that a great winning team hardly or never changes their first eleven, once you have found the winning formula you stick by it.
But since Gibson is out we need to find the closest thing to him and that is Rodwell.
I hope Moyes thinks the way I do with regards to fining and keeping a winning formula.
That is kind of what is going on with Everton right now.
Loan players cover the need for something to be glad about, but they are only loan players, they will return back to their clubs, just like Landon Donovan.
We do not have the money to buy Drenthe,Straqualursi and Pienaar.
Even Drenthe who is out of contract we can not afford, because of his sign on fees and wages.
That is the cold hard truth, you can deal with it or not, but the only good thing is we have the BU behind us, pressing Kenwright for transfers, and in there lies our hope.
The ultra gamble is to get to Europe this season, so that MAYBE we can sign Drenthe, Straqualursi and perhaps Pienaar if Harry Redknapp lowers his price.
Now you know.
I myself am hoping for a cup final minimum and a 6-7th place finish.
Problem is once Anichebe, Osman and Jagielka is back the ones that are on this winning streak will be dropped thanks to David Moyes and his strange thinking.
I have always felt that a great winning team hardly or never changes their first eleven, once you have found the winning formula you stick by it.
But since Gibson is out we need to find the closest thing to him and that is Rodwell.
I hope Moyes thinks the way I do with regards to fining and keeping a winning formula.
I love the way people who go to ridiculous lengths to defend the status quo at boardroom level, feel the need to premise their posts with 'I'm not fan of Kenwright... but'.
As if making this proclaimation will somehow magically change the meaning of their mealy-mouth support.
At least have the balls to admit you don't care whether Kenwright stays or goes.
As if making this proclaimation will somehow magically change the meaning of their mealy-mouth support.
At least have the balls to admit you don't care whether Kenwright stays or goes.
My own opinion (and note that) is that the BU is the biggest single threat to the future prosperity of the club.
Firstly they are underminding the club from the bottom. They have little real support, no credible ideas of how the club can be developed and yet they get airspace that they don't deserve. Their ideas for change at the club are laughable and they are full of rude propagandists and activists whose only tactic is to shout down any alternative view.
There is a future for EFC and it may be with new owners but my own hope is that it happens via the existing institutions with the support of the majority of fans and not by the actions of an often nasty minority of activists and advocates.
Firstly they are underminding the club from the bottom. They have little real support, no credible ideas of how the club can be developed and yet they get airspace that they don't deserve. Their ideas for change at the club are laughable and they are full of rude propagandists and activists whose only tactic is to shout down any alternative view.
There is a future for EFC and it may be with new owners but my own hope is that it happens via the existing institutions with the support of the majority of fans and not by the actions of an often nasty minority of activists and advocates.
Fishy... fishy ...nibble ...nibble
Not tonight Josephine - things quiet out there, this evening, Martin?
Not tonight Josephine - things quiet out there, this evening, Martin?
We have been told by the 'non-apologists' for years that the club is in decline, we are going to get relegated, close to bankruptcy, the board are driving us into the ground, edge of the precipice, staring into the abyss....you can reel them off all day.
And yet every season we are still here, battling along. And I don't see that changing any time soon. For sure, I dont see us competing at the top of the table for a long time, we are around £100 million a year in income down on trying to achieve that. But if we continue this run of form, we will have European football back next year. And to me, that would be Moyes finest hour as manager.
Even my faith was badly shaken early this season, I thought we were fucked. But to be honest, he has proved us all wrong, and made the team believe in itself again with some shrewd business in the transfer market. In parallel, we have also reduced the debt by selling some players, and reduced the wage bill by getting rid of overpayed, under performing players.
Yes, we do have some players on loan that have no doubt assisted our improved form. But we also have some good young players coming through (Vellios, Barkley, Duffy) that show things are not too dark for the future. I for one am quite happy with things as they are right now. Let's hope we can keep it going.
And yet every season we are still here, battling along. And I don't see that changing any time soon. For sure, I dont see us competing at the top of the table for a long time, we are around £100 million a year in income down on trying to achieve that. But if we continue this run of form, we will have European football back next year. And to me, that would be Moyes finest hour as manager.
Even my faith was badly shaken early this season, I thought we were fucked. But to be honest, he has proved us all wrong, and made the team believe in itself again with some shrewd business in the transfer market. In parallel, we have also reduced the debt by selling some players, and reduced the wage bill by getting rid of overpayed, under performing players.
Yes, we do have some players on loan that have no doubt assisted our improved form. But we also have some good young players coming through (Vellios, Barkley, Duffy) that show things are not too dark for the future. I for one am quite happy with things as they are right now. Let's hope we can keep it going.
Martin (801) - '...airspace that they don't deserve'. That's an interesting 'opinion' to add to the other one or two you've shared with us avid followers recently. Please continue... eg:
Why don't they deserve airspace?
Who does deserve airspace?
How much airspace does a large voluntary group 'deserve'?
How much airspace does an individual deserve (or need?) when giving opinions?
Who decides these matters?
If we follow your advice and deny airspace to opposing views then we may as well close down ToffeeWeb.
Why don't they deserve airspace?
Who does deserve airspace?
How much airspace does a large voluntary group 'deserve'?
How much airspace does an individual deserve (or need?) when giving opinions?
Who decides these matters?
If we follow your advice and deny airspace to opposing views then we may as well close down ToffeeWeb.
"The only good thing is we have the BU behind us, pressing Kenwright for transfers, and in there lies our hope."
Admirable as their intentions are, I think you may be over estimating the BU's impact Jimmy.
What's clear to me from Kenwright's recent little Q&A session with the BU at the car park at Goodison, is that he views them with contempt. With that, I just don't see how people can think that Kenwright thought "Fuck it, I'll give the manager enough cash to sign a striker and cover approx 25 weeks wages for two loans (Donovan and Pienaar)," because of a few BU protests.
More likely is that, with Bily being sold and Saha off the wage bill, the coffers could stretch to one 3½-month loan and one permanent signing on top of the 7- or 8-week loan of Donovan.
Admirable as their intentions are, I think you may be over estimating the BU's impact Jimmy.
What's clear to me from Kenwright's recent little Q&A session with the BU at the car park at Goodison, is that he views them with contempt. With that, I just don't see how people can think that Kenwright thought "Fuck it, I'll give the manager enough cash to sign a striker and cover approx 25 weeks wages for two loans (Donovan and Pienaar)," because of a few BU protests.
More likely is that, with Bily being sold and Saha off the wage bill, the coffers could stretch to one 3½-month loan and one permanent signing on top of the 7- or 8-week loan of Donovan.
Martin #801 - ironic that you use the word "prosperity" as being under threat by BU. Well fuck me. We are losing money and unable to make a dent in our debt without selling players. Prosperity is not something that comes to mind when describing our situation.
Somehow, by begging, stealing and borrowing, we have managed to keep afloat and meet our short term financial commitments whilst resembling something resembling a squad.
This is a horribly precarious position to be in, and all the BU is doing is calling it as it is.
Dan Brierly.
Please tell me how a club losing money at the operating level every year, with very significant liabilities, with a requirement to sell its players and weaken its squad can afford to continue on its current path.
You mention debt reduction but next year, guess what, it will creep back up again. Attendances are declining, we are gradually achieving lower league positions each year, our cost of borrowing is steeply rising.
This a club slowly suffocating.
Somehow, by begging, stealing and borrowing, we have managed to keep afloat and meet our short term financial commitments whilst resembling something resembling a squad.
This is a horribly precarious position to be in, and all the BU is doing is calling it as it is.
Dan Brierly.
Please tell me how a club losing money at the operating level every year, with very significant liabilities, with a requirement to sell its players and weaken its squad can afford to continue on its current path.
You mention debt reduction but next year, guess what, it will creep back up again. Attendances are declining, we are gradually achieving lower league positions each year, our cost of borrowing is steeply rising.
This a club slowly suffocating.
Fundamentally nothing's changed.
A couple of our new players have started to look the part ? Drenthe is taking more responsibility, Stracq is having a right good go, Pienaar and Donovan have shown what we know thay can do.
Our squad is still weak and we haven't replaced quality players. It's a thin line between relative success and mediocrity. The new players and Fellaini's good form has tipped the balance and given us some confidence going forward.
Moyes isn't getting away with anything; he's just doing what he's good at, season after season, which is getting the most out of his team. I still reckon we're weak and our financial future is bleak to say the least. Moyes may not provide the most entertaining teams but weve played some good stuff down the years. His cautious approach is without question more successful than those teams who attack without due care, in other words all but the moneyed elite...
I support him and sincerely hope he's here to spend when Kenwright is finally removed. He deserves a crack at putting us back in the big time.
A couple of our new players have started to look the part ? Drenthe is taking more responsibility, Stracq is having a right good go, Pienaar and Donovan have shown what we know thay can do.
Our squad is still weak and we haven't replaced quality players. It's a thin line between relative success and mediocrity. The new players and Fellaini's good form has tipped the balance and given us some confidence going forward.
Moyes isn't getting away with anything; he's just doing what he's good at, season after season, which is getting the most out of his team. I still reckon we're weak and our financial future is bleak to say the least. Moyes may not provide the most entertaining teams but weve played some good stuff down the years. His cautious approach is without question more successful than those teams who attack without due care, in other words all but the moneyed elite...
I support him and sincerely hope he's here to spend when Kenwright is finally removed. He deserves a crack at putting us back in the big time.
Martin,
You say the BU are damaging the club's prosperity..... yet previously insisted that they can have no effect on proceedings. You say this board have mismanaged and cannot bring us success with their resources..... yet you hope the current institutions can stay.
It's one contradiction after another....... you say their ideas are laughable yet one is being implimented as we speak....... how many of yours are the Echo featuring today?
You say the BU are damaging the club's prosperity..... yet previously insisted that they can have no effect on proceedings. You say this board have mismanaged and cannot bring us success with their resources..... yet you hope the current institutions can stay.
It's one contradiction after another....... you say their ideas are laughable yet one is being implimented as we speak....... how many of yours are the Echo featuring today?
I do believe that our club is unsellable ? even for the mythical quid. Perhaps Bill should cut his losses and hand it over lock, stock and barrel to Fitz and Hughes so they show us how Everton should be run.
Oh, I forgot, the banks and mortgage companies might suddenly foreclose as they would not share our confidence in these two maestros!
Oh, I forgot, the banks and mortgage companies might suddenly foreclose as they would not share our confidence in these two maestros!
Martin Mason, your post #715 is similar to what I said in #712. Without change off the field, which looks unlikely to say the least, our only option is to get the absolute maximum on the field. Attain the highest position available and achieve a feelgood factor which is happening at the moment.
Now imagine this on top of a decent start. Will someone who knows more about football than me post an article about why we start so badly year after year? I actually don't think that complaining when things are going well is wrong. How often do we hear that the MOB disappear when things are going well?
The whole demeanour of David Moyes changes as the spring approaches and a a mood of optimism arrives. Does he have Seasonal Affective Disorder???
Now imagine this on top of a decent start. Will someone who knows more about football than me post an article about why we start so badly year after year? I actually don't think that complaining when things are going well is wrong. How often do we hear that the MOB disappear when things are going well?
The whole demeanour of David Moyes changes as the spring approaches and a a mood of optimism arrives. Does he have Seasonal Affective Disorder???
But you have to accept, Andy, that Tony Marsh`s puppeteer only brings him out of the cupboard when the team loses two on the trot!
Have you been on the Wine Gums tonight Doddy?
Your poor salvo at Tom and Colin has some atrocious spelling mistakes but, like your use of banks, creditors and foreclosure and lack of faith and confidence from the available dwindling pool, so the subliminal state of the club under Black Bill is finally sinking in with you.
Your poor salvo at Tom and Colin has some atrocious spelling mistakes but, like your use of banks, creditors and foreclosure and lack of faith and confidence from the available dwindling pool, so the subliminal state of the club under Black Bill is finally sinking in with you.
Richard..... the fact that banks might be in a position to foreclose tells you all you need to know about your hero's tenure. No massive leveraged buy-out to contend with, nothing spent on expensive stadium improvements, yet next to zero nett spend on players and a complete inability to address the debt and stadium issues...... and failure after failure.
Bring in Blue Union, I say!
Other than the forums, it's not of interest to the majority: a pint, the match, chippy... a few cans at home... MotD. Someone said the other day he's not really arsed about the match ? just goes for time with his mates.
People aren't as wrapped up in their club as they used to be, even Hicks and Gilette had benefit-of-the-doubters among the RS.
Even on here, people in full knowledge of Kenwright's arsing around take the piss about people complaining.
Oh yes, he will survive.
People aren't as wrapped up in their club as they used to be, even Hicks and Gilette had benefit-of-the-doubters among the RS.
Even on here, people in full knowledge of Kenwright's arsing around take the piss about people complaining.
Oh yes, he will survive.
Barry...not Match of the Day mate, not Match of the Day.
Amit,
'This a club slowly suffocating'
Yes, we have been told this for years. Yet funnily enough, we are still here!! Next year, another player will be sold, and Moyes will have to re-adjust again. That's his job.
The club are going around, signing up young talent for our academy, planning for the future. In the mean time, we are subsidizing the squad with loan moves to cover the gaps. And we have just bought a decent striker, for the first time in years. If he starts banging goals in, we will climb up the table and be challenging for Europe.
Is this the best business plan? No, of course not. The best is throwing endless money in and buying the title. But how many people out there really want to do that in today's financial climate?
'This a club slowly suffocating'
Yes, we have been told this for years. Yet funnily enough, we are still here!! Next year, another player will be sold, and Moyes will have to re-adjust again. That's his job.
The club are going around, signing up young talent for our academy, planning for the future. In the mean time, we are subsidizing the squad with loan moves to cover the gaps. And we have just bought a decent striker, for the first time in years. If he starts banging goals in, we will climb up the table and be challenging for Europe.
Is this the best business plan? No, of course not. The best is throwing endless money in and buying the title. But how many people out there really want to do that in today's financial climate?
Dan,
Yes we have been told this for years. But last year, as well as losing £5 million.... we sold assets worth over £30 million... borrowed another £4 million from VIBRAC....
What are we gonna do next year... or the year after???
Martin will have the answer ... in my opinion... FOR FUCK'S SAKE, GET A GRIP BLUES...
Sorry Mike... but they're pissin me off now.
Yes we have been told this for years. But last year, as well as losing £5 million.... we sold assets worth over £30 million... borrowed another £4 million from VIBRAC....
What are we gonna do next year... or the year after???
Martin will have the answer ... in my opinion... FOR FUCK'S SAKE, GET A GRIP BLUES...
Sorry Mike... but they're pissin me off now.
Dan,
'This a club slowly suffocating'
"Yes, we have been told this for years. Yet funnily enough, we are still here!!"
That's the whole point ? it does happen over night. It's a slow rot / decay.
"The club are going around, signing up young talent for our academy, planning for the future."
The club have always done that. Doesn't mean it's going to pay off so I'm not going to get too excited.
'This a club slowly suffocating'
"Yes, we have been told this for years. Yet funnily enough, we are still here!!"
That's the whole point ? it does happen over night. It's a slow rot / decay.
"The club are going around, signing up young talent for our academy, planning for the future."
The club have always done that. Doesn't mean it's going to pay off so I'm not going to get too excited.
Dan, that is my view and well put. There are a few options for how we can recover as a club and one is that we grow organically from here using whatever resources we have and by clever buying and selling. The other is that we push for a rich group to buy the club and invest very large amounts of money to make us successful.
One is achievable and sustainable; one is almost certainly fantasy and definitely unsustainable. Which option should we support?
Of course the board should look at all options and I'm sure they do. I'm really impressed with how Moyes and the team are rebuilding the side. Tactically he has his many annoying traits but strategically (balancing loans, buys and academy production) is bloody good at times.
Phil@803
No fishing mate, that was my only possible reposte to the attacks being made on me on the Quinn Investment thread. Anybody on here wishing to discuss issues in a civil and adult manner will always find me happy to respond in kind. However, I'd say that nothing is out of bounds for anybody not obeying the rules of the board and general civility.
One is achievable and sustainable; one is almost certainly fantasy and definitely unsustainable. Which option should we support?
Of course the board should look at all options and I'm sure they do. I'm really impressed with how Moyes and the team are rebuilding the side. Tactically he has his many annoying traits but strategically (balancing loans, buys and academy production) is bloody good at times.
Phil@803
No fishing mate, that was my only possible reposte to the attacks being made on me on the Quinn Investment thread. Anybody on here wishing to discuss issues in a civil and adult manner will always find me happy to respond in kind. However, I'd say that nothing is out of bounds for anybody not obeying the rules of the board and general civility.
Dave #731, you must have missed Moyes's statement: "The Arteta money went to the bank, I thought everyone knew that."
Kevin Sparke, nobody is saying that they want the team to lose to get rid of Kenwright and/or Moyes.
Except you.
Except you.
I've just been reading about the Portsmouth saga and it looks as though they could be out of business altogether soon. That is a perfect example of where a club can end up after indiscriminate selling to shady characters to whom football and the club are the least of their interests.
Was it BK or Elstone who already publicly admitted that Everton's current financial model is unsustainable beyond the next few years without any external investment forthcoming? Yet another fact these bury-head-in-sand types like Martin and Dan will no doubt choose to ignore. But hey, we'll still be around next year! Bring out the champagne!
Rory
That statement may be true from Elstone but it?s conditional on one thing and that is that the club keeps spending at its current level. The club can carry on trading when it runs out of money but it will have to adopt a new model which would mean spending less which would also mean selling all of the highly paid players playing in a lower league.
I?m sorry to disagree with you too but the ultimate head in the sand attitude is that we are actually going to get some external investment. It is hand waving fantasy. Why would anybody ?invest? in EFC unless there was an ulterior motive that would patently not in the interest of the club? Go and read what happened to Portsmouth, have a look at Rangers, that is where the fire sale route could take us.
That statement may be true from Elstone but it?s conditional on one thing and that is that the club keeps spending at its current level. The club can carry on trading when it runs out of money but it will have to adopt a new model which would mean spending less which would also mean selling all of the highly paid players playing in a lower league.
I?m sorry to disagree with you too but the ultimate head in the sand attitude is that we are actually going to get some external investment. It is hand waving fantasy. Why would anybody ?invest? in EFC unless there was an ulterior motive that would patently not in the interest of the club? Go and read what happened to Portsmouth, have a look at Rangers, that is where the fire sale route could take us.
Eric
you`re still not getting this, without putting the 10 million in the bank we wouldnt have had the 5 million to spend.
If we didnt sell Arteta, we couldnt have bought anybody
you`re still not getting this, without putting the 10 million in the bank we wouldnt have had the 5 million to spend.
If we didnt sell Arteta, we couldnt have bought anybody
Dave,
good to see you now agree the Arteta money went straight to the bank.
If we hadn't sold Arteta would we have needed to buy anyone?
good to see you now agree the Arteta money went straight to the bank.
If we hadn't sold Arteta would we have needed to buy anyone?
Eric
Your not making any sense.
I didnt at any time think the 10 million went anywhere other than the bank - dont think anybody believed BK put it under the matress.
Most will disagree with you about the need to sign a striker . .whether we sold arteta or not.
but it was the 10m from the ARTETA deal that pursuaded the banks to loosen the purse strings to by Jelavic, not as you suggested, the money we got for Saha- because we didnt get any
Your not making any sense.
I didnt at any time think the 10 million went anywhere other than the bank - dont think anybody believed BK put it under the matress.
Most will disagree with you about the need to sign a striker . .whether we sold arteta or not.
but it was the 10m from the ARTETA deal that pursuaded the banks to loosen the purse strings to by Jelavic, not as you suggested, the money we got for Saha- because we didnt get any
Dave, refer to your post #717 ""spending 5m of the Aterta money on Jelevic disguises nothing."
So you're saying that some of the money recieved for Arteta was used to buy Jelevic which you now admit isn't true.
Also refer to my post #725 "we sold BILY and Saha to raise funds for Jelevic."
How much did we get for Bily? and have you forgotten that Saha was getting paid and by selling him there would be a saving?
So you're saying that some of the money recieved for Arteta was used to buy Jelevic which you now admit isn't true.
Also refer to my post #725 "we sold BILY and Saha to raise funds for Jelevic."
How much did we get for Bily? and have you forgotten that Saha was getting paid and by selling him there would be a saving?
Eric
no I`m catergorically stating that without the money we raised for Arteta, we wouldnt have bought Jelavic.
Put simply if we only sold Bily and Saha, Jelavic would NOT be here, nor would he be here if we hadnt sold Arteta.
Now if you dont see that, then I cant help you
no I`m catergorically stating that without the money we raised for Arteta, we wouldnt have bought Jelavic.
Put simply if we only sold Bily and Saha, Jelavic would NOT be here, nor would he be here if we hadnt sold Arteta.
Now if you dont see that, then I cant help you
Martin 860,
If you were saying/implying 'Be careful what you wish for', when Peter Johnson was still here, you'd be right.
You could even say 'I told you so'.
If you were saying/implying 'Be careful what you wish for', when Peter Johnson was still here, you'd be right.
You could even say 'I told you so'.
Dave, that's not what you wrote.
If you can't see that then you need help.
If you can't see that then you need help.
Eric, do you remeber the argument sketch from Montie Python? :-)
We certainly do this issue to death! Whatever the talk of `my hero`,of course I accept the fact that Kenwright is not the future of EFC.I believe he accepts it (can`t be certain) but has found it impossible to attract a buyer who has the wherewithall to take the Club on.If anyone serious had been repulsed,I know we should have heard about it notwithstanding `confidentiality`clauses etc.etc....
Let`s all agree that BK has not shown the necessary business acumen to `build the brand`or increase income streams outside of those that come via media contracts and gatemoney.
He may or may not be said `be clinging to office`but I think the reality is that he`s stuck with it and cannot find a way of escape.He`s exceedingly fortunate to have a manager who understands and accepts the situation and is prepared to work within it.The fact that manager receives a king`s ransom to do so and may not get many better offers is irrelevant because it is generally accepted he is precisely the man to be here at this time.
Of course it`s the bank who call the shots.Of course the Arteta money went to the banks-and probably some of the Bily money as well!Of course we`re a club in crisis,as by any normal business criteria are 95% of professional outfits.
But I do believe who `owns` the Club in the present climate is almost immaterial-it`s the bean counters who call the shots and how well THEY run Everton over the next few months will determine whether we have a future anywhere as glorious as our past.
Let`s all agree that BK has not shown the necessary business acumen to `build the brand`or increase income streams outside of those that come via media contracts and gatemoney.
He may or may not be said `be clinging to office`but I think the reality is that he`s stuck with it and cannot find a way of escape.He`s exceedingly fortunate to have a manager who understands and accepts the situation and is prepared to work within it.The fact that manager receives a king`s ransom to do so and may not get many better offers is irrelevant because it is generally accepted he is precisely the man to be here at this time.
Of course it`s the bank who call the shots.Of course the Arteta money went to the banks-and probably some of the Bily money as well!Of course we`re a club in crisis,as by any normal business criteria are 95% of professional outfits.
But I do believe who `owns` the Club in the present climate is almost immaterial-it`s the bean counters who call the shots and how well THEY run Everton over the next few months will determine whether we have a future anywhere as glorious as our past.
Good summary Richard
Martin, I suggest you go and read what happened at Rangers and pompey before you make comparisons. Every yr will be a firesale for this club under this lot. Sell to survive. When has this club ever had to do that in its history? Make no mistake our predicament is not a million miles away from their's, and one of them plays in a poxy league and the other has a fraction of our fanbase, a worse stadium and has spent most of its history in the lower divisions. As far as your insistence that take over is fantasy you still haven't explained how this fantasy has happened at nearly ALL other clubs...... some several times in fact. You still haven't explained how many much smaller clubs with smaller resources and fanbases can outspend us.... not all have billionaire sugardaddys. You randomnly fit eroneous factsand circular arguments to justify being happy with the ludicrous position that we are in. You're almost trying to say that our current plight is actually well designed prudence when it is in fact desperation stakes. Everton FC has never been in such a state in its entire history. Even in the early 80's with tiny gates and no TV money we could still compete for new players with all of our peers. Look at them now.... all with shiny new stands brimming with boxes and unobstructed views..... some enjoying the biggest average attendances ever...... then look at us. Yes Moyes can work miracles on a zero budget with his best players sold from under him...... but that is despite the incompetence and impotence of our cardboard cut out owners and not because of anything they've brought to the club. 12yrs (many more for BK) is long enough. We don't need managed decline..... we need strategy for growth and realising our full potential. This lot have demonstrated that they are totally incapable of delivering anything but failure.
If Bill sold the club for what he paid for it, it would open up our opportunity's imeasurably to new buyers/ investors , I believe this is the reason we are in this state. Martin you metion Portsmouth I believe that the didgy investors there are no worse the ones we have.
So Richard......you accept that this lot got us to where we are and that your endless praise over all those thousands of posts was entirely misplaced...... yet now we're supposed to accept your act of contrition on behalf of the club and agree that the best policy isto do/say nothing. You've just admitted to being wrong for years, yet now you're wisdom personified?
Tom: Do you truly believe the asking price is the only barrier to a sale? And is there any evidence to that fact?
Personally,I think it goes far deeper than that and that debt and ground issues are the main barriers.
OK,BK must accept this situation has come about on his shift and that he shouldn`t have taken the helm if he wasn`t up to it, but the guy`s a dreamer who is only now waking from a nightmare.
Personally,I think it goes far deeper than that and that debt and ground issues are the main barriers.
OK,BK must accept this situation has come about on his shift and that he shouldn`t have taken the helm if he wasn`t up to it, but the guy`s a dreamer who is only now waking from a nightmare.
Tom, I'd just finished reading about what happened at Pompey and Rangers. That's why I posted it
Can I point out that Everton's history is irrelevant and virtually all other football clubs are in a similar position to us; all could go under. It doesn?t matter that other clubs have been bought, we are talking about our club here. It isn?t in London, it isn?t worth a sausage and it has minus zero investment potential.
When you make generalized sweeping statements about clubs smaller than us outspending us then please list them and the relative spending and any of their sources that were external. Please also don?t lecture me on Everton?s current situationI?m well aware of what it is and I believe Howard Kendal?s version of Everton?s situation in the 1980s. Now is not 1980 anyway, we?ve just had the worst financial meltdown in history and thousands of companies are going bust, healthy ones not like our basket case club.
I notice your typical destructive criticism comes without any ideas on how we might reach this magic state and how do you know that were not at our full potential? Oh yes, we?re a big club and we have a motto that says only the best is good enough and all we need is a buyer who?s got half a billion to spend. Get real will you what you see at Everton now is probably the long term future. Now what are we going to do?
Can I point out that Everton's history is irrelevant and virtually all other football clubs are in a similar position to us; all could go under. It doesn?t matter that other clubs have been bought, we are talking about our club here. It isn?t in London, it isn?t worth a sausage and it has minus zero investment potential.
When you make generalized sweeping statements about clubs smaller than us outspending us then please list them and the relative spending and any of their sources that were external. Please also don?t lecture me on Everton?s current situationI?m well aware of what it is and I believe Howard Kendal?s version of Everton?s situation in the 1980s. Now is not 1980 anyway, we?ve just had the worst financial meltdown in history and thousands of companies are going bust, healthy ones not like our basket case club.
I notice your typical destructive criticism comes without any ideas on how we might reach this magic state and how do you know that were not at our full potential? Oh yes, we?re a big club and we have a motto that says only the best is good enough and all we need is a buyer who?s got half a billion to spend. Get real will you what you see at Everton now is probably the long term future. Now what are we going to do?
PS.Perhaps I should have said `woken up TO a nightmare!`
Richard.... that's one long dream. He's only just woken up after over 20yrs involvement? He knew exactly what he was taking on.... he was already on the board. Other clubs have All demonstrated that ANY stadium issues are resolveable..... the likes of the people who took over at Man city could've solved all these issues with their small change literally. The point is BK has had his chances to resolve those issues too.... and he blew it.... so please stop making poor excuse for our poor excuse of a board.....
But Tom,who could he GIVE IT AWAY to?What fool would take it on?
Give us a clue,please.....!
Give us a clue,please.....!
^Richard, he doesn't want to give it away, he (and his friends) want to make a load of money out of selling it.
So martin...... you will have no problem furnishing us with all the pertinent facts that relate to our clubs predicament...... what part of these clubs change of ownership affected their downfalls and why? In what way do you think pompey are comparable to us?
We are not in London? Haha.... so its only London clubs that have been sold..... are your own examples Rangers and pompey also in London? What about all the clubs in the north west, north east, midlands..... everywhere? Quite a laughable statement! But if you are going to make comparisons you need to qualify them and ensure that you haven't narrowed the field to purposely fit your non-argument.. There has been thread after thread outlining our financial status in comparison to other clubs..... feel free to quote from any. BTW, Our history relates directly to the size of our fanbase that is in itself a measure of our potential. Over the past decade several clubs have exceeded their highest ever average gates.... some despite winning nothing..... that has been the opertating backdrop for football clubs in that time. We are nowhere near our record average.... we couldn't even accommodate it or anything close as we are currently averaging approx 20k less than our record average. In actual fact we're going in the opposite direction. Yes, most clubs are sailing pretty close to the wind..... but at least most of them have grown their product with better facilities, generating greater funds for players. We haven't..... check any list and counter if you can. You can't and never have on here.
You're the only one who mentions our motto and the need for billionaires..... how many billionaires are there in the prem boardrooms? There are however well documented missed opportunities to show that there have been solutions wasted, and the abundence of new stands and whole new stadia are evidence enough that football clubs have been able to resolve those issues too..... apparently we're a special case where feck all is achieveable..... nonsense and you know it!
We are not in London? Haha.... so its only London clubs that have been sold..... are your own examples Rangers and pompey also in London? What about all the clubs in the north west, north east, midlands..... everywhere? Quite a laughable statement! But if you are going to make comparisons you need to qualify them and ensure that you haven't narrowed the field to purposely fit your non-argument.. There has been thread after thread outlining our financial status in comparison to other clubs..... feel free to quote from any. BTW, Our history relates directly to the size of our fanbase that is in itself a measure of our potential. Over the past decade several clubs have exceeded their highest ever average gates.... some despite winning nothing..... that has been the opertating backdrop for football clubs in that time. We are nowhere near our record average.... we couldn't even accommodate it or anything close as we are currently averaging approx 20k less than our record average. In actual fact we're going in the opposite direction. Yes, most clubs are sailing pretty close to the wind..... but at least most of them have grown their product with better facilities, generating greater funds for players. We haven't..... check any list and counter if you can. You can't and never have on here.
You're the only one who mentions our motto and the need for billionaires..... how many billionaires are there in the prem boardrooms? There are however well documented missed opportunities to show that there have been solutions wasted, and the abundence of new stands and whole new stadia are evidence enough that football clubs have been able to resolve those issues too..... apparently we're a special case where feck all is achieveable..... nonsense and you know it!
Richard..... EVERY other club has been sold.... and some several times and you ask that question? We have one of thje largest fanbases and our in the richest league in the world. Our potential is mostly untapped ............ so why do you believe we are the exception? They've prob missed their opportinity for a big payday.... and there lies the key impediment to a sale, but that's their own fault.... and at the end of the day perhaps their failure shouldn't be rewarded. And the club shouldn't suffer for their continued incompetence. Of course we can all say nothing or walk away and watch from a far as they drag us down vainly hoping for another moyes miracle. I prefer to not accept failure and not make excuses for it.... in my job ignoring mistakes can be very costly so I'm quite averse to the heaad in the sand attitude
Apologies for any typos etc. On my phone and can barely see keyboard or screen
Tom
Pompey is not in a similar situation to EFC.
No, not only London clubs have been sold (I didn?t say that) but London clubs are the easiest to sell.
I can?t understand a word you say for the rest of your second paragraph. All I will do is repeat that our history is irrelevant to our current predicament
In the last para you are spraying fog and repeating the sweeping generalizations that you made before. List the clubs, what they have spent and the amount of that spending that came from external sources.
Remember it is people like you who have to prove all of your accusations of wrong doing; my belief is that, within reason, the club is doing as well as could be expected given its resources, it is a football club and it has no other obvious means of increasing revenue, it is in a very deprived area of a generally decaying city and it has nothing that could attract investment from anybody except a clinically insane Evertonian. There is not a shred of evidence that a new board could do better within the same constraints the present board suffers from and we are not guaranteed success because we were great in 1970 and once used to get gates of 75000 plus. Of course we could have done better than we have under BK and DM but we could also have done a lot worse; the board hasn?t thrown their own money in but they don?t have to and they would be very stupid to do so. I believe that we can improve from our current position, that we are improving significantly and that we are going to have to do it without being bought by a rich benefactor.
Of course we aren't a special case but we are still governed by the basic rule that you can't spend what you don't have.
Pompey is not in a similar situation to EFC.
No, not only London clubs have been sold (I didn?t say that) but London clubs are the easiest to sell.
I can?t understand a word you say for the rest of your second paragraph. All I will do is repeat that our history is irrelevant to our current predicament
In the last para you are spraying fog and repeating the sweeping generalizations that you made before. List the clubs, what they have spent and the amount of that spending that came from external sources.
Remember it is people like you who have to prove all of your accusations of wrong doing; my belief is that, within reason, the club is doing as well as could be expected given its resources, it is a football club and it has no other obvious means of increasing revenue, it is in a very deprived area of a generally decaying city and it has nothing that could attract investment from anybody except a clinically insane Evertonian. There is not a shred of evidence that a new board could do better within the same constraints the present board suffers from and we are not guaranteed success because we were great in 1970 and once used to get gates of 75000 plus. Of course we could have done better than we have under BK and DM but we could also have done a lot worse; the board hasn?t thrown their own money in but they don?t have to and they would be very stupid to do so. I believe that we can improve from our current position, that we are improving significantly and that we are going to have to do it without being bought by a rich benefactor.
Of course we aren't a special case but we are still governed by the basic rule that you can't spend what you don't have.
Apologies for any typos etc. On my phone and can barely see keyboard or screen
Tom, surely in your job you wouldn't advocate solutions that were impossible to implement? surely you would also define what the problem was first?
Another basic rule is that EVERYTHING SELLS at the RIGHT PRICE!
True Richard but when a club has debt and infrastructure spending need then J1 is too much. EFC may still be a basket case buy at that price.
Martin.... unfortunately I cannot post links easily on this thing..... but suffice to say that when we have a negative nett spend.... or certainly the lowest of any club with our turnover or even significantly lower.... it is fair to assume we have been very poorly led in recent yrs. When ALL others have done more to address those issues.... you hardly need to list them. Bottom of the pile is bottom of the pile. Meanwhile you say you've read this and read that yet never counter with any stats or details..... so who is foggying.... you mention London then conveniently forget the rest of the country. You say we've been mismanaged then say we're as good as we could've been..... then surely we haven't been mismanaged? Yet you say you can't understand me? I'm sorry but you continually contradict yourself and go off on irrelevant tangents. People have posted direct links in response to all your claims and you never answer them.....
Dan 838.
"Next year, another player will be sold, and Moyes will have to re-adjust again. That's his job. "
- So, in a nutshell, we have to depend on selling players (risky, as the talent pool may dry up or worse, we are dependent on other clubs with cash to buy them)
"The club are going around, signing up young talent for our academy, planning for the future. In the mean time, we are subsidizing the squad with loan moves to cover the gaps. And we have just bought a decent striker, for the first time in years. If he starts banging goals in, we will climb up the table and be challenging for Europe."
- Ifs, buts, maybes. Our liabilities are real and certain. Every sensible business has a Plan 'B' if the performance (ie revenues) is not expected. What's ours if we don't make Europe, or we can't sell players?
"Is this the best business plan? No, of course not. The best is throwing endless money in and buying the title. But how many people out there really want to do that in today's financial climate?"
- You are right its not a business plan. And who is asking the club to throw around money? We are questioning why it is that every major commercial venture this Board has tried to launch has failed. Why is there no clear, viable business plan to deal with our debts (not based on ifs, buts and maybes).
"Yes, we have been told this for years. Yet funnily enough, we are still here!! "
- Are you celebrating the fact that we are still in existence?
"Next year, another player will be sold, and Moyes will have to re-adjust again. That's his job. "
- So, in a nutshell, we have to depend on selling players (risky, as the talent pool may dry up or worse, we are dependent on other clubs with cash to buy them)
"The club are going around, signing up young talent for our academy, planning for the future. In the mean time, we are subsidizing the squad with loan moves to cover the gaps. And we have just bought a decent striker, for the first time in years. If he starts banging goals in, we will climb up the table and be challenging for Europe."
- Ifs, buts, maybes. Our liabilities are real and certain. Every sensible business has a Plan 'B' if the performance (ie revenues) is not expected. What's ours if we don't make Europe, or we can't sell players?
"Is this the best business plan? No, of course not. The best is throwing endless money in and buying the title. But how many people out there really want to do that in today's financial climate?"
- You are right its not a business plan. And who is asking the club to throw around money? We are questioning why it is that every major commercial venture this Board has tried to launch has failed. Why is there no clear, viable business plan to deal with our debts (not based on ifs, buts and maybes).
"Yes, we have been told this for years. Yet funnily enough, we are still here!! "
- Are you celebrating the fact that we are still in existence?
Amit, how do you know that every business venture the club has tried has failed? What exactly is your suggestion for recovery at EFC?
Tom, as I have said I don't have to prove anything because as you can see I make no accusations. You are making sweeping generalisations of how we spend relative to others and somehow quoting it as fact without a shred of evidence. It is far more complex a situation than who spent what and when
Tom, as I have said I don't have to prove anything because as you can see I make no accusations. You are making sweeping generalisations of how we spend relative to others and somehow quoting it as fact without a shred of evidence. It is far more complex a situation than who spent what and when
Martin..... you are accusing me of making stuff up...... feel free to disprove anything I've said. I am merely responding directly to your points. I can readily generalise when the facts are already generally well established...... meanwhile you never practice what you preach. Colin. Fitz furnished you with all the relevant info and you decided to ignore it all..... not once quoting any stat, detail or figure in response. Nett spend and finance league tables have all been listed numerous times..... again feel free to quote any to back yourself up.
This weekend's QPR game should be a good pointer to Moyes finally getting his act together. So let's see what Everton turns up ? the conquerors of Chelsea and Man City... or the dismal failures of the Bolton, Villa, Blackburn and Wigan games.
Martin..... you also feign condemnation of BK and the board. You "accuse" him of mismanagement...... to only go on and say we are as good as we can be............. contradicting yourself and never qualifying anything. The KEIOC and BU sites have plenty of the stats you're after.... all with lovely graphs and pie charts and some direct comparisons.
Tom
I don't need to prove you are making stuff up nor did I imply it. I sad you were generalising. The "facts" may be well established but you aren't quoting facts you are stating a general opinion. Colin Fitz furnished me with a lot of links not one of which was applicable to the points I raised and I didn't ignore it. It was just irrelevant and again I didn't need to put anything detailed in response. I asked for answers to two questions and got no answers. I didn't need to prove anything, that duty is 100% on the accusers.
I don't need to prove you are making stuff up nor did I imply it. I sad you were generalising. The "facts" may be well established but you aren't quoting facts you are stating a general opinion. Colin Fitz furnished me with a lot of links not one of which was applicable to the points I raised and I didn't ignore it. It was just irrelevant and again I didn't need to put anything detailed in response. I asked for answers to two questions and got no answers. I didn't need to prove anything, that duty is 100% on the accusers.
Martin
These are some of the things that I would like to see:
1. Appointment of an independent non-executive board with the sole mandate of finding a buyer or equity investor, with the aim of raising proceeds to first and foremost reduce the liabilities of the club through capital investment.
2. Whilst a buyer is being sought, the appointment of turnaround specialists (KPMG, EY etc) to draw-up a sustainable business plan covering:
- Review of the club's existing commercial operations and a clear assessment and projection of our revenue generating capacity.
- Review on the club's cost structure, including an investigation into what appear to be extremely expensive lease agreements for certain properties and a thorough examination of "other operating costs"
- Recommendations on how the club can diversify and increase sources of revenue and rationalise costs
3. Appointment of a construction specialist to provide a clear and unbiased view of the possibility of re-developing Goodison.
The specialists should report to the non-executive board.
The ultimate objective would be to hand over the search for investment to an independent party and to appoint a specialist to provide a route map to turn the club around.
A sustainable business plan will improve the marketability of the club and enable BK to cash out.
The independent board will help to establish if there is any interest at all in investing in the club and at what price; and whether, after all, BK has been holding out for too much money....
These are some of the things that I would like to see:
1. Appointment of an independent non-executive board with the sole mandate of finding a buyer or equity investor, with the aim of raising proceeds to first and foremost reduce the liabilities of the club through capital investment.
2. Whilst a buyer is being sought, the appointment of turnaround specialists (KPMG, EY etc) to draw-up a sustainable business plan covering:
- Review of the club's existing commercial operations and a clear assessment and projection of our revenue generating capacity.
- Review on the club's cost structure, including an investigation into what appear to be extremely expensive lease agreements for certain properties and a thorough examination of "other operating costs"
- Recommendations on how the club can diversify and increase sources of revenue and rationalise costs
3. Appointment of a construction specialist to provide a clear and unbiased view of the possibility of re-developing Goodison.
The specialists should report to the non-executive board.
The ultimate objective would be to hand over the search for investment to an independent party and to appoint a specialist to provide a route map to turn the club around.
A sustainable business plan will improve the marketability of the club and enable BK to cash out.
The independent board will help to establish if there is any interest at all in investing in the club and at what price; and whether, after all, BK has been holding out for too much money....
I don?t feign condemnation of BK, I don?t ?accuse? him of mismanagement. The KEIOC and BU sites may have lots of great info but it won?t answer my questions.
Haha..... but you also accuse them of mismanagement then change your mind mid-paragraph and ask me to prove it. Sorry but that's nonsensical.
The only issue here is you have no argument.... one way or the other. Just contradition after contradiction and irrelevant questions about illegality.
The only issue here is you have no argument.... one way or the other. Just contradition after contradiction and irrelevant questions about illegality.
We all have the same wishes for EFC but the current board in my opinion will never permit the formation of a separate board. I also believe that nobody could find a buyer or investor for EFC.
With regards to your other wishes, all of which are noble, none need any change in EFC personnel to achieve them. I?m sure that the board would gladly redevelop the ground if our fans will accept us selling the team to finance it.
When it comes to investment or sale to solve our problems this is the bit like ?and now a miracle happens?, any recovery plan for the club must also be based on us not getting investment because that is the likely outcome.
Eventually we are going to have to redevelop the ground and I assume the board will address that issue when the time comes. I don?t believe that they are stupid
With regards to your other wishes, all of which are noble, none need any change in EFC personnel to achieve them. I?m sure that the board would gladly redevelop the ground if our fans will accept us selling the team to finance it.
When it comes to investment or sale to solve our problems this is the bit like ?and now a miracle happens?, any recovery plan for the club must also be based on us not getting investment because that is the likely outcome.
Eventually we are going to have to redevelop the ground and I assume the board will address that issue when the time comes. I don?t believe that they are stupid
Martin..... they have precisely the info you requested.
You have stated several times that the club has been mismanaged.
You have stated several times that the club has been mismanaged.
Tom,
You know his game. You spotted it a mile away on the other thread.
You're wasting your time and patience.
You know his game. You spotted it a mile away on the other thread.
You're wasting your time and patience.
Martin what are your views on our perennial poor starts and how would you address the problem?
Martin,
"We all have the same wishes for EFC but the current board in my opinion will never permit the formation of a separate board. I also believe that nobody could find a buyer or investor for EFC."
Believe what you like..... precedents have already been set... and some not too far away. To say that we couldn't find a buyer for EFC in the last 12 yrs is to completely ignore all the statistical evidence.
"With regards to your other wishes, all of which are noble, none need any change in EFC personnel to achieve them. I?m sure that the board would gladly redevelop the ground if our fans will accept us selling the team to finance it."
We sell our players just to survive now. Over the past 12 yrs they have hocked tens of millions of pounds worth of assets that could've gone a long way towards redeveloping the stadium incrementally. ALL OTHER CLUBS have achieved this to one extent or another. Why are we the exception? A new Bullens tied into a new school and residential development can be far nearer to any self-funding scheme than DK was. Similarly a new Park End and enabling development on club owned land would also mirror development models elsewhere. Examples are endless, from the likes of little old Burnley and Ipswich right upto Sheff Wed/Utd, Newcastle and so many others, stadium development has been achieved within financial and physical constraints.
"When it comes to investment or sale to solve our problems this is the bit like ?and now a miracle happens?, any recovery plan for the club must also be based on us not getting investment because that is the likely outcome."
No, that is your opinion. One based on the "preservation of the current incumbents at all costs senario"....... one I don't feel the need to go along with.
"Eventually we are going to have to redevelop the ground and I assume the board will address that issue when the time comes. I don?t believe that they are stupid"
Well I'd beg to differ based on the facts that: they've had three goes so far and failed at each attempt. They attempted the hard sell with the fundamentally flawed DK, at the bequest of third parties having not fully assessed the redevelopment option..... and they also blew the deal of the century at KD that could've been acquired for the cost of one Wayne Rooney..... who we had to sell in anycase......but at least they're not stupid eh?
"We all have the same wishes for EFC but the current board in my opinion will never permit the formation of a separate board. I also believe that nobody could find a buyer or investor for EFC."
Believe what you like..... precedents have already been set... and some not too far away. To say that we couldn't find a buyer for EFC in the last 12 yrs is to completely ignore all the statistical evidence.
"With regards to your other wishes, all of which are noble, none need any change in EFC personnel to achieve them. I?m sure that the board would gladly redevelop the ground if our fans will accept us selling the team to finance it."
We sell our players just to survive now. Over the past 12 yrs they have hocked tens of millions of pounds worth of assets that could've gone a long way towards redeveloping the stadium incrementally. ALL OTHER CLUBS have achieved this to one extent or another. Why are we the exception? A new Bullens tied into a new school and residential development can be far nearer to any self-funding scheme than DK was. Similarly a new Park End and enabling development on club owned land would also mirror development models elsewhere. Examples are endless, from the likes of little old Burnley and Ipswich right upto Sheff Wed/Utd, Newcastle and so many others, stadium development has been achieved within financial and physical constraints.
"When it comes to investment or sale to solve our problems this is the bit like ?and now a miracle happens?, any recovery plan for the club must also be based on us not getting investment because that is the likely outcome."
No, that is your opinion. One based on the "preservation of the current incumbents at all costs senario"....... one I don't feel the need to go along with.
"Eventually we are going to have to redevelop the ground and I assume the board will address that issue when the time comes. I don?t believe that they are stupid"
Well I'd beg to differ based on the facts that: they've had three goes so far and failed at each attempt. They attempted the hard sell with the fundamentally flawed DK, at the bequest of third parties having not fully assessed the redevelopment option..... and they also blew the deal of the century at KD that could've been acquired for the cost of one Wayne Rooney..... who we had to sell in anycase......but at least they're not stupid eh?
Stephen,
He's keeping me out of the alehouse, so he's not all bad.
He's keeping me out of the alehouse, so he's not all bad.
Tom@921
Many clubs are mismanaged and very few really well managed. I'm not sure that I've said that EFC have been mismanaged because that would be only an opinion. I have no real evidence to support that hypothesis although I believe it to be true. I also believe that if the club had been properly managed we would be in a far lower league position than we are. I believe that they have sold assets for playing strength and without an increase in revenue it's unsustainable. How do they increase revenue? I have no idea. The web sites may have lots of anecdotal evidence and opinion galore but what I'm looking for is criminal or wilful negligence. That the board has done things which KEIOC and DK didn't agree with doesn't constitute that. If you can use evidence from any site to counter anything I say then just link it. If you show me wrong I'll accept it.
Many clubs are mismanaged and very few really well managed. I'm not sure that I've said that EFC have been mismanaged because that would be only an opinion. I have no real evidence to support that hypothesis although I believe it to be true. I also believe that if the club had been properly managed we would be in a far lower league position than we are. I believe that they have sold assets for playing strength and without an increase in revenue it's unsustainable. How do they increase revenue? I have no idea. The web sites may have lots of anecdotal evidence and opinion galore but what I'm looking for is criminal or wilful negligence. That the board has done things which KEIOC and DK didn't agree with doesn't constitute that. If you can use evidence from any site to counter anything I say then just link it. If you show me wrong I'll accept it.
Andy@924
I can't claim to be an expert on playing matters but I feel that it's a combination of things. I believe that their build up to the season is poor and that they aren't up to fitness quickly enough. I also believe that it's essential for a side like Everton to play really competitive games which we don't. I believe that the above points mean we start not ready and pick up injuries to key players early on and it takes ages for us to recover. I also believe that Moyes genuinely doesn't know what his best team is at the start of each season because he is too close to it. If he has a weakness this is definitely it. It regularly seems as though he sees it in the end because the injuries stop him dabbling or playing favourites and we blossom as a result.
In this case I blame the Manager
I can't claim to be an expert on playing matters but I feel that it's a combination of things. I believe that their build up to the season is poor and that they aren't up to fitness quickly enough. I also believe that it's essential for a side like Everton to play really competitive games which we don't. I believe that the above points mean we start not ready and pick up injuries to key players early on and it takes ages for us to recover. I also believe that Moyes genuinely doesn't know what his best team is at the start of each season because he is too close to it. If he has a weakness this is definitely it. It regularly seems as though he sees it in the end because the injuries stop him dabbling or playing favourites and we blossom as a result.
In this case I blame the Manager
Martin #904 ;
"There is not a shred of evidence that a new board could do better within the same constraints the present board suffers from"
You then say "I believe that we can improve from our current position, that we are improving significantly and that we are going to have to do it without being bought by a rich benefactor." ???????????
"There is not a shred of evidence that a new board could do better within the same constraints the present board suffers from"
You then say "I believe that we can improve from our current position, that we are improving significantly and that we are going to have to do it without being bought by a rich benefactor." ???????????
Tom, I can only state my opinions which I never do unless they can be backed up by events. I genuinely believe that BK won?t allow another board to be set up and that we won?t be sold to the buyer that we need. If you have anything that shows these opinions to be unreasonable then let me know. That other clubs have been sold isn?t a precedent. They weren?t the basket case that EFC patently is.
Yes we have sold players to survive and yes we have sold assets but this has been to buy and pay players. We don?t have the money to do both. No Tom ALL OTHER CLUBS have not achieved this, that is a sweeping generalization which you can?t quantify and keeping saying it doesn?t make it true. Most clubs are in trouble, most that have developed stadiums have had external money.
I don?t advocate preservation of the existing incumbents at any cost, absolutely ridiculous. I just want to see any sale being to the right people who have only the interests of the club and fans at heart. I also believe my analogy of such a sale or investment as akin to ?now a miracle happens?. Can you see it happening.
I?m glad that you agree with me on the ground redevelopment. As you note they are actively trying to do it but of course as you know they don?t have any money. KD couldn?t go ahead because EFC didn?t raise the money however good an opportunity it was. I believe that we can redevelop the ground and do it at low cost as many have pointed out. However, to do this and pay down debt will mean selling more players and probably settling for greatly reduced performance. EFC is fucked if it does the ground and fucked if it doesn?t because some will scream if we stop buying new blood to sort the ground out.
Given that we don?t find a buyer or investor where do you stand on this? Would you accept stagnation on the playing side in exchange for redeveloping Goodison?
Yes we have sold players to survive and yes we have sold assets but this has been to buy and pay players. We don?t have the money to do both. No Tom ALL OTHER CLUBS have not achieved this, that is a sweeping generalization which you can?t quantify and keeping saying it doesn?t make it true. Most clubs are in trouble, most that have developed stadiums have had external money.
I don?t advocate preservation of the existing incumbents at any cost, absolutely ridiculous. I just want to see any sale being to the right people who have only the interests of the club and fans at heart. I also believe my analogy of such a sale or investment as akin to ?now a miracle happens?. Can you see it happening.
I?m glad that you agree with me on the ground redevelopment. As you note they are actively trying to do it but of course as you know they don?t have any money. KD couldn?t go ahead because EFC didn?t raise the money however good an opportunity it was. I believe that we can redevelop the ground and do it at low cost as many have pointed out. However, to do this and pay down debt will mean selling more players and probably settling for greatly reduced performance. EFC is fucked if it does the ground and fucked if it doesn?t because some will scream if we stop buying new blood to sort the ground out.
Given that we don?t find a buyer or investor where do you stand on this? Would you accept stagnation on the playing side in exchange for redeveloping Goodison?
Martin,
"Many clubs are mismanaged and very few really well managed."
Which clubs..... in what ways? Is this your opinion or do you have evidence...... or are you just generalising in the absence of any proof? I dare say many clubs are poorly managed..... but most in our league can still outspend us and/or live in far more modern stadia with far greater revenue generating potential.
"I'm not sure that I've said that EFC have been mismanaged because that would be only an opinion. I have no real evidence to support that hypothesis although I believe it to be true. I also believe that if the club had been properly managed we would be in a far lower league position than we are."
If we had been playing at the Kings Dock with all the additional income we would be in a lower league position? Or if we had say redeveloped the Bullens with 20-30 boxes (to go somwhere to matching say Villa's 105 boxes and Spurs 120boxes) with all that additional income, we would be in a lower league position? They have had over12yrs to tackle these issues either partly or fully, and have delivered nothing..... so how can you possibly summise that we would be in a lower league position?
"I believe that they have sold assets for playing strength and without an increase in revenue it's unsustainable."
So where are all the big signings? How come we have a negative nett spend for the whole decade, and one of the smallest squads in the league?
"How do they increase revenue? I have no idea. The web sites may have lots of anecdotal evidence and opinion galore but what I'm looking for is criminal or wilful negligence."
If running the club within a whisker of administration isn't negligence then I'm not sure what is. If tying a club into an exclusivity agreement with third parties without demonstrating any real efforts to explore ALL other options isn't negligence, again, I really don't know what is. If allowing the Kings Dock to pass us by when one boardmember offers the cash to make it happen isn't negligence then...... Can you counter ANY of these, because quite frankly any single one represents negligence in one shape or form.
"That the board has done things which KEIOC and DK didn't agree with doesn't constitute that. If you can use evidence from any site to counter anything I say then just link it. If you show me wrong I'll accept it."
No link required...... The Kings Dock is not our home.... not anecdotal, not imaginary..... just fact! Our stadium's major issues have been neglected to a disgusting degree..... again, not opinion just fact. Can we now move on please?
"Many clubs are mismanaged and very few really well managed."
Which clubs..... in what ways? Is this your opinion or do you have evidence...... or are you just generalising in the absence of any proof? I dare say many clubs are poorly managed..... but most in our league can still outspend us and/or live in far more modern stadia with far greater revenue generating potential.
"I'm not sure that I've said that EFC have been mismanaged because that would be only an opinion. I have no real evidence to support that hypothesis although I believe it to be true. I also believe that if the club had been properly managed we would be in a far lower league position than we are."
If we had been playing at the Kings Dock with all the additional income we would be in a lower league position? Or if we had say redeveloped the Bullens with 20-30 boxes (to go somwhere to matching say Villa's 105 boxes and Spurs 120boxes) with all that additional income, we would be in a lower league position? They have had over12yrs to tackle these issues either partly or fully, and have delivered nothing..... so how can you possibly summise that we would be in a lower league position?
"I believe that they have sold assets for playing strength and without an increase in revenue it's unsustainable."
So where are all the big signings? How come we have a negative nett spend for the whole decade, and one of the smallest squads in the league?
"How do they increase revenue? I have no idea. The web sites may have lots of anecdotal evidence and opinion galore but what I'm looking for is criminal or wilful negligence."
If running the club within a whisker of administration isn't negligence then I'm not sure what is. If tying a club into an exclusivity agreement with third parties without demonstrating any real efforts to explore ALL other options isn't negligence, again, I really don't know what is. If allowing the Kings Dock to pass us by when one boardmember offers the cash to make it happen isn't negligence then...... Can you counter ANY of these, because quite frankly any single one represents negligence in one shape or form.
"That the board has done things which KEIOC and DK didn't agree with doesn't constitute that. If you can use evidence from any site to counter anything I say then just link it. If you show me wrong I'll accept it."
No link required...... The Kings Dock is not our home.... not anecdotal, not imaginary..... just fact! Our stadium's major issues have been neglected to a disgusting degree..... again, not opinion just fact. Can we now move on please?
Tom, were in a dialogue of the deaf here mate so I'm ending it here. You are patently not taking in what I say but are responding with the same stuff that I've responded to many times and obviously don't accept. Go to the pub, I am it's 7-00pm here. :-)
Martin. You continually slag people off because, in your opinion, they do not give you facts. FACTS you demand not their opinions.
Your 904 says Liverpool is a decaying city. Is that your opinion? Show me facts for that statement. You obviously don't live in Liverpool.
Also in 904 you say we are inproving significantly!!! Is that your opinion? Show me facts for that statement. FACTS!
Sorry Martin but its all one way traffic with you. You refuse to accept any statement that does not give "facts" yet your posts are full of your "opinions".
You keep going on about accepting the present situation as the best we can get but what facts can you give me to prove that. It's very easy to slag off concerned Evertonians for trying to encourage change whilst you just sit on your arse doing absolutely nothing.
Your 904 says Liverpool is a decaying city. Is that your opinion? Show me facts for that statement. You obviously don't live in Liverpool.
Also in 904 you say we are inproving significantly!!! Is that your opinion? Show me facts for that statement. FACTS!
Sorry Martin but its all one way traffic with you. You refuse to accept any statement that does not give "facts" yet your posts are full of your "opinions".
You keep going on about accepting the present situation as the best we can get but what facts can you give me to prove that. It's very easy to slag off concerned Evertonians for trying to encourage change whilst you just sit on your arse doing absolutely nothing.
"I genuinely believe that BK won?t allow another board to be set up and that we won?t be sold to the buyer that we need. If you have anything that shows these opinions to be unreasonable then let me know."
I'm sure Hicks and Gillette thought they wouldn't have to sell outside their own terms... the same group is rumoured to now being involved in our sale.
"That other clubs have been sold isn?t a precedent. They weren?t the basket case that EFC patently is."
Hold on you say most of clubs are in dire straits yet they've all been sold? How does that work?
"Yes we have sold players to survive and yes we have sold assets but this has been to buy and pay players."
Not all of our assets were sold directly to pay for players some have gone straight to the debt collector with our wage bill reduced...
"We don?t have the money to do both. No Tom ALL OTHER CLUBS have not achieved this, that is a sweeping generalization which you can?t quantify and keeping saying it doesn?t make it true."
ALL other clubs (bar pompey) have improved facilities..... most massively. Name one that hasn't improved its facilities. Redevelopment funds can arrive from completely separate sources and property-based development models that have no input or detraction from team funding.
"Most clubs are in trouble, most that have developed stadiums have had external money."
Most have had external money.....? Who? Do you mean money from people outside the club, or money from boards that have invested in their clubs? Only Man City has had a stadium built for them, and they had to foot some of that bill and now pay rent. The rest? The bottom line is..... all others play in more modern facilities..... they achieved it, we haven't!
"I don?t advocate preservation of the existing incumbents at any cost, absolutely ridiculous. I just want to see any sale being to the right people who have only the interests of the club and fans at heart. I also believe my analogy of such a sale or investment as akin to ?now a miracle happens?. Can you see it happening."
I'm not sure you advocate anything at all...
"I?m glad that you agree with me on the ground redevelopment. As you note they are actively trying to do it but of course as you know they don?t have any money."
Erm..... I haven't seen any drawings of any propsed development of GP come from the club..... so I don't know what you're on about. If the multi-millionaire board have no readies then, again..... it's time to go!!!
"KD couldn?t go ahead because EFC didn?t raise the money however good an opportunity it was."
They were offered the cash by Gregg and turned it down because of the ensuing power struggle..... all well documented and commented on in various AGM's. Opportunity deliberately missed. No-one will end up in court over it though!
"I believe that we can redevelop the ground and do it at low cost as many have pointed out. However to do this and pay down debt will mean selling more players and probably settling for greatly reduced performance."
Other clubs such as Newcastle used various property and marketing strategies to release extra funds, especially when developing on their own plots. We do not have to redevelop the whole stadium in one go..... additional capacity and quality facilities can be added via completely sepearet funding sources. We could of course do nothing and slowly die!
"Given that we don?t find a buyer or investor where do you stand on this? Would you accept stagnation on the playing side in exchange for redeveloping Goodison?"
That's it, I don't accept your "given".... we are already stagnating, and a few good, and very welcome wins can't detract from that. Even an FA cup win couldn't..... ask Pompey.
I'm sure Hicks and Gillette thought they wouldn't have to sell outside their own terms... the same group is rumoured to now being involved in our sale.
"That other clubs have been sold isn?t a precedent. They weren?t the basket case that EFC patently is."
Hold on you say most of clubs are in dire straits yet they've all been sold? How does that work?
"Yes we have sold players to survive and yes we have sold assets but this has been to buy and pay players."
Not all of our assets were sold directly to pay for players some have gone straight to the debt collector with our wage bill reduced...
"We don?t have the money to do both. No Tom ALL OTHER CLUBS have not achieved this, that is a sweeping generalization which you can?t quantify and keeping saying it doesn?t make it true."
ALL other clubs (bar pompey) have improved facilities..... most massively. Name one that hasn't improved its facilities. Redevelopment funds can arrive from completely separate sources and property-based development models that have no input or detraction from team funding.
"Most clubs are in trouble, most that have developed stadiums have had external money."
Most have had external money.....? Who? Do you mean money from people outside the club, or money from boards that have invested in their clubs? Only Man City has had a stadium built for them, and they had to foot some of that bill and now pay rent. The rest? The bottom line is..... all others play in more modern facilities..... they achieved it, we haven't!
"I don?t advocate preservation of the existing incumbents at any cost, absolutely ridiculous. I just want to see any sale being to the right people who have only the interests of the club and fans at heart. I also believe my analogy of such a sale or investment as akin to ?now a miracle happens?. Can you see it happening."
I'm not sure you advocate anything at all...
"I?m glad that you agree with me on the ground redevelopment. As you note they are actively trying to do it but of course as you know they don?t have any money."
Erm..... I haven't seen any drawings of any propsed development of GP come from the club..... so I don't know what you're on about. If the multi-millionaire board have no readies then, again..... it's time to go!!!
"KD couldn?t go ahead because EFC didn?t raise the money however good an opportunity it was."
They were offered the cash by Gregg and turned it down because of the ensuing power struggle..... all well documented and commented on in various AGM's. Opportunity deliberately missed. No-one will end up in court over it though!
"I believe that we can redevelop the ground and do it at low cost as many have pointed out. However to do this and pay down debt will mean selling more players and probably settling for greatly reduced performance."
Other clubs such as Newcastle used various property and marketing strategies to release extra funds, especially when developing on their own plots. We do not have to redevelop the whole stadium in one go..... additional capacity and quality facilities can be added via completely sepearet funding sources. We could of course do nothing and slowly die!
"Given that we don?t find a buyer or investor where do you stand on this? Would you accept stagnation on the playing side in exchange for redeveloping Goodison?"
That's it, I don't accept your "given".... we are already stagnating, and a few good, and very welcome wins can't detract from that. Even an FA cup win couldn't..... ask Pompey.
Martin,
"Tom, were in a dialogue of the deaf here mate so I'm ending it here. You are patently not taking in what I say but are responding with the same stuff that I've responded to many times and obviously don't accept. Go to the pub, I am it's 7-00pm here. :-)"
I have mastered cut and paste on my phone to answer each of your points directly.... This I have done for every sentence..... even giving the odd example too. You haven't done the same.
Don't overdo the local hooch, I fear it's already had a detrimental effect ;)
"Tom, were in a dialogue of the deaf here mate so I'm ending it here. You are patently not taking in what I say but are responding with the same stuff that I've responded to many times and obviously don't accept. Go to the pub, I am it's 7-00pm here. :-)"
I have mastered cut and paste on my phone to answer each of your points directly.... This I have done for every sentence..... even giving the odd example too. You haven't done the same.
Don't overdo the local hooch, I fear it's already had a detrimental effect ;)
Hey, guys, why don`t you just cut and paste all you said to each other on the Quinn thread and then I can go straight to the Freshy from work without fear I am missing something!
Tom, you should write a book on your phone, it could be a first and you've had good practice here.:-)
I'm off now for a couple of jugs of Efes, I may answer all of your questions when I get back but it may be in Kazakh or the version I speak when I'm pissed.
Long live comrade Bill
I'm off now for a couple of jugs of Efes, I may answer all of your questions when I get back but it may be in Kazakh or the version I speak when I'm pissed.
Long live comrade Bill
Hahaha.
They're not facts, Tom... Prove it.
They're not facts, Tom... Prove it.
I did warn Martin of the ills of EFES and the local voddie in the Quinn thread.
Now that he has confirmed he's on the EFES then everything falls into place.
Tom, time to give up I'm afraid, he is a confirmed lost cause.
He was possibly - and I mean possibly - of average intelligence before he started drinking that shite.
Now that he has confirmed he's on the EFES then everything falls into place.
Tom, time to give up I'm afraid, he is a confirmed lost cause.
He was possibly - and I mean possibly - of average intelligence before he started drinking that shite.
Now that Martin has gone, can anyone get back to the original post. I did ask Martin a question about the cause of our perennial bad starts. He, and I think it was an opinion, put it squarely down to David Moyes. If anyone has any thoughts on the subject, and I think it has had a massive effect on the club in recent years, could you let me know before he gets home.
Why are we more poorly run than any other club? Sure Man Utd and Arsenal make vast profits but what about the others?
Man City and Chelsea aren't brilliantly run, they just have billionaires throwing money at them. Liverpool fucked up and had to be rescued by another billionaire yank. Spurs are a similar size to us but being London-based with a billionaire owner have surpassed us at present.
Who after that is in a better position than us? Sunderland and Newcastle have as many fans as we do but I wouldn't swop either of their last 10 years with ours and there is nothing to suggest that over the next 10 years they will leave us behind. They are yo-yo clubs at best.
Villa are similar to us in size and stature and look at them.
I don't look at any of the other teams and think any of them can overtake us as although some of these may not have as much debt, they aren't big enough to capitalise and make any impression on the Premier League.
We seem to focus on our lack of money and see a point when we will inevitably slide but I don't think there are the clubs out there that will consistently finish ahead of us.
Let's face it, there are six teams at present who are ahead of us but, with only 4 Champions League spaces, some of those teams will fuck themselves over spending Champions League money without bringing in the revenue.
Out of those six teams, Arsenal and Man Utd are massive clubs, City and Chelsea are massively funded and Liverpool are hanging on to past glories (but for how much longer as they seem to be gradually getting worse and worse). Spurs are going through a purple patch but, unless they continue to qualify for Champions League each year, they will soon come down to our level again.
So, without a billionaire owner like City or Chelsea, we are competing for 7th year on year it won't get that much better but it won't get that much worse. A few good results haven't masked the calamity that is going on at the club it has merely started bringing us back to where we should be at this moment right behind the top six above the other 13 clubs. It ain't brilliant but it's not the disaster that some of us seem to think we are in the midst of.
Man City and Chelsea aren't brilliantly run, they just have billionaires throwing money at them. Liverpool fucked up and had to be rescued by another billionaire yank. Spurs are a similar size to us but being London-based with a billionaire owner have surpassed us at present.
Who after that is in a better position than us? Sunderland and Newcastle have as many fans as we do but I wouldn't swop either of their last 10 years with ours and there is nothing to suggest that over the next 10 years they will leave us behind. They are yo-yo clubs at best.
Villa are similar to us in size and stature and look at them.
I don't look at any of the other teams and think any of them can overtake us as although some of these may not have as much debt, they aren't big enough to capitalise and make any impression on the Premier League.
We seem to focus on our lack of money and see a point when we will inevitably slide but I don't think there are the clubs out there that will consistently finish ahead of us.
Let's face it, there are six teams at present who are ahead of us but, with only 4 Champions League spaces, some of those teams will fuck themselves over spending Champions League money without bringing in the revenue.
Out of those six teams, Arsenal and Man Utd are massive clubs, City and Chelsea are massively funded and Liverpool are hanging on to past glories (but for how much longer as they seem to be gradually getting worse and worse). Spurs are going through a purple patch but, unless they continue to qualify for Champions League each year, they will soon come down to our level again.
So, without a billionaire owner like City or Chelsea, we are competing for 7th year on year it won't get that much better but it won't get that much worse. A few good results haven't masked the calamity that is going on at the club it has merely started bringing us back to where we should be at this moment right behind the top six above the other 13 clubs. It ain't brilliant but it's not the disaster that some of us seem to think we are in the midst of.
"...or the version I speak when I'm pissed"
How will we tell?
How will we tell?
Amit, #916 total agree, exactly what's required.
Danny (975) - Agree with all but "without a billionaire owner".
For sure we need moneyed owners. A billionaire, there's 1,000s of them, wouldn't hurt. But we need good ownership, whatever the money. Over the last decade good ownership has basically meant "Come on Davey".
OK, he's done well with what he has to work with. But I wonder when he's watching the team in training which one (or more) of Baines, Rodwell, Fella, Heitinga or Jags he's thinking will be gone this summer.
For sure we need moneyed owners. A billionaire, there's 1,000s of them, wouldn't hurt. But we need good ownership, whatever the money. Over the last decade good ownership has basically meant "Come on Davey".
OK, he's done well with what he has to work with. But I wonder when he's watching the team in training which one (or more) of Baines, Rodwell, Fella, Heitinga or Jags he's thinking will be gone this summer.
Tom, dont' feed the troll.
I never thought I'd even SEE it, nevermind write it myself...Martin Mason 928 Re the bad start, abso-fuckin-lutly spot on.
Andy 971; I think it goes back to the start of the 04-05 season. Moyes did the US thing then and we finished 4th he thinks it is his mojo workin.
Andy 971; I think it goes back to the start of the 04-05 season. Moyes did the US thing then and we finished 4th he thinks it is his mojo workin.
Look at that, I turn my back for 5 minutes and the children are out throwing stones at my door.
Derek, thank you but again you misunderstand me and I accept that this is partly my fault for not communicating my views well enough. I am a critic of the present board and manager, I criticise when I think it's due and when I can fully justify the criticism. I particularly criticise the board and BK for at times breathtaking incompetence and unacceptably patronising communication, and I criticise Moyes for negativity and selection of favourites who are obviously out of form. I just take issue with the often ridiculous accusations made by some here, their complete misunderstanding of why we are where we are and their totally unrealistic expectations for solutions ideas.
Derek, thank you but again you misunderstand me and I accept that this is partly my fault for not communicating my views well enough. I am a critic of the present board and manager, I criticise when I think it's due and when I can fully justify the criticism. I particularly criticise the board and BK for at times breathtaking incompetence and unacceptably patronising communication, and I criticise Moyes for negativity and selection of favourites who are obviously out of form. I just take issue with the often ridiculous accusations made by some here, their complete misunderstanding of why we are where we are and their totally unrealistic expectations for solutions ideas.
Danny 'without a billionaire owner like City or Chelsea, we are competing for 7th year on year"
We have a billionaire owner, or at least several millionaires that make up a billionaire.
The difference between the teams you mention and Everton is that their owners have invested money into their clubs to make them better. Our owners have done the opposite.
Even other clubs that don't have billionaire owners have invested more, and are in a better state, than us.
We have a billionaire owner, or at least several millionaires that make up a billionaire.
The difference between the teams you mention and Everton is that their owners have invested money into their clubs to make them better. Our owners have done the opposite.
Even other clubs that don't have billionaire owners have invested more, and are in a better state, than us.
Eric, the definition of investment is putting money into something with the expectation of gain. There is zero chance of anybody getting a return on money with Everton so it wouldn't be investment it'd be throwing money away or gifting it.
If you want to see the sustainable type of management and investment that a prudently run club should look for it is Leyton Orient who are run by the very rich Barry Hearns. They have recovered very slowly but sustainably from a financial crisis suffered by the club. He has put none of his own money in but run it as a business should be run namely within its means. That is the future for Everton too. I completely disagree that directors have an obligation to put any of their own money into the club. Their obligation is to make a profit for themselves and stakeholders
If you want to see the sustainable type of management and investment that a prudently run club should look for it is Leyton Orient who are run by the very rich Barry Hearns. They have recovered very slowly but sustainably from a financial crisis suffered by the club. He has put none of his own money in but run it as a business should be run namely within its means. That is the future for Everton too. I completely disagree that directors have an obligation to put any of their own money into the club. Their obligation is to make a profit for themselves and stakeholders
So Blue Union are looking for a `benefactor` rather than an `investor`, eh,Martin?
A bloody good businessman would do for a start,though wouldn`t it?
A bloody good businessman would do for a start,though wouldn`t it?
Yes Richard and a bloody good businessman is well within the bounds of reality.
In other businesses our board would be removed and business managers appointed that know what they're doing as our current board are making a dismal mess of running the Club as a business to make a profit for the shareholders.
In other businesses our board would be removed and business managers appointed that know what they're doing as our current board are making a dismal mess of running the Club as a business to make a profit for the shareholders.
Everton FC Shareholders don't get a dividend .
Paul Wharton
Paul Wharton
Martin, the role of a Director is to ensure the business is funded to acheive its objectives, act in the best interest of its stakeholders and provide accurate, truthful and complete financial reports.
Perhaps it is the lack of any of the above to be adequately set in place over the recent decade that has ensured that critiscism of the board may well be justified and led to the inescapable conclusion that they have been acting with self interest at the expense of the the other shareholders and stakeholders.
I for one do not believe for a moment that they are merely incompetent, too many successful business millionaires on the board or advising for that to be the sole reason.
The facts are that they have failed to act in the interests of the club (the business) by not ensuring the long term viability or providing inward investment to ensure operational objectives ( such as a stadium development) are acheived.
We are now at the end of a long period of no investment, the responsibility for which lies with the directors of the club, no one else.
It is now too late to attract investment without sale of shares, something they have decided they do not want to do.
The solution is painful. There is no more family silver to be pawned, no director ants to personally invest, no investor would be interested without shares or a significant benefit ( own the players outright? (joke) after all nothing else left to motgage.
Assuming no investment or sale, The solution is to sell players, exist, buy time. Hope.
Everton will be sold eventually, probably to a overseas sporting consortium, with better business disciplines..
I hope its sooner rather than later
Perhaps it is the lack of any of the above to be adequately set in place over the recent decade that has ensured that critiscism of the board may well be justified and led to the inescapable conclusion that they have been acting with self interest at the expense of the the other shareholders and stakeholders.
I for one do not believe for a moment that they are merely incompetent, too many successful business millionaires on the board or advising for that to be the sole reason.
The facts are that they have failed to act in the interests of the club (the business) by not ensuring the long term viability or providing inward investment to ensure operational objectives ( such as a stadium development) are acheived.
We are now at the end of a long period of no investment, the responsibility for which lies with the directors of the club, no one else.
It is now too late to attract investment without sale of shares, something they have decided they do not want to do.
The solution is painful. There is no more family silver to be pawned, no director ants to personally invest, no investor would be interested without shares or a significant benefit ( own the players outright? (joke) after all nothing else left to motgage.
Assuming no investment or sale, The solution is to sell players, exist, buy time. Hope.
Everton will be sold eventually, probably to a overseas sporting consortium, with better business disciplines..
I hope its sooner rather than later
Martin 014; please excuse the ' Industrial ' language; as the saying's said ' Away and f*ck spiders ' you made a point Re. the bad start and I happen to agree with the gist of it.
Don't try your smartarse / jedi mind games with me * moves fingers in hypnotic fashion* you just used up what (very) little credit you had.
Don't try your smartarse / jedi mind games with me * moves fingers in hypnotic fashion* you just used up what (very) little credit you had.
Doddy, absolutely nailed on for the most obvious statement well done and wholeheartedly agree - it doesn't need a billionaire to possess acumen and the ability to see where the business is going wrong and to assemble a startegy to right those wrongs. The club and business lose money hand over fist on poor deals currently in place which should be fixed; marketing and corporate provision int he form of boxes being two low lying fruit ripe for the picking, add sponsorship and non match day activities then you start to make inroads into the annual income of the club by expanding its revenue streams. None of these need a billionaire, what they need is better than what we have; those responsible have failed and should improve their failures or be shown the door and replaced with others more willing and capable to succeed.
Christine, I agree with your sentiment honest but the role of the directors and employees of any company is to make profit for its owners. Every other role you list flows on from that.
Criticism of the board IS justified and as they don?t pay dividends strictly speaking acting with self interest is exactly what they should be doing. If you mean in the best interest of the club, then I have seen no evidence that what they have done has not been with that aim.
Have you thought for a moment that far from being incompetent, willfully negligent, etc., that they have actually done very well to keep us in the position we are with the squad we have? That is a real possibility.
Many businesses operate without investment and to be fair we have had investment in the form of the purchase of new players. Whilst the board is responsible for getting investment into the club is it not possible that they have tried to the best of their ability and because of the general economic climate been unsuccessful? I ask you, why would any outsider invest in Everton? I would give money via Everton trust but it would not be an investment but a handout.
Susan, I completely agree and have said it many times now. The only future for the club is painful. EFC has no attraction to any buyer unless they want a train set and if anybody does buy I can?t see how they will run the club other than in the painful way EFC is having to be run now.
I share your hopes that EFC will be bought and by somebody with money to invest throw away. I just don?t believe they will other than by a buyer with ulterior motives like the ones that destroyed Portsmouth. In the meantime I will give my full support to the present board and still criticize where it is justified. I have no right to demand anything though.
Criticism of the board IS justified and as they don?t pay dividends strictly speaking acting with self interest is exactly what they should be doing. If you mean in the best interest of the club, then I have seen no evidence that what they have done has not been with that aim.
Have you thought for a moment that far from being incompetent, willfully negligent, etc., that they have actually done very well to keep us in the position we are with the squad we have? That is a real possibility.
Many businesses operate without investment and to be fair we have had investment in the form of the purchase of new players. Whilst the board is responsible for getting investment into the club is it not possible that they have tried to the best of their ability and because of the general economic climate been unsuccessful? I ask you, why would any outsider invest in Everton? I would give money via Everton trust but it would not be an investment but a handout.
Susan, I completely agree and have said it many times now. The only future for the club is painful. EFC has no attraction to any buyer unless they want a train set and if anybody does buy I can?t see how they will run the club other than in the painful way EFC is having to be run now.
I share your hopes that EFC will be bought and by somebody with money to invest throw away. I just don?t believe they will other than by a buyer with ulterior motives like the ones that destroyed Portsmouth. In the meantime I will give my full support to the present board and still criticize where it is justified. I have no right to demand anything though.
Richard, EFC have some exceptional business people on their board. Yes, what BU are looking for is a benefactor, that is the correct term. Somebody who will buy the club and provide the deferred investment that the club has racked up for the last 40 years and provide money for players in the knowledge that he will probably never get a return on it.
Derek
I never say anything without really analysing it and being sure that if challenged I can defend what I've said. I thought about the reasons for the bad starts for example and was happy that I could probably defend any of the points and most seem to agree.
Eventually you will agree more and more with all of the things I say because I do the same thing for every word I. You will come to love me and hang on my every word. And EFC will win the Champions League in 2013
I never say anything without really analysing it and being sure that if challenged I can defend what I've said. I thought about the reasons for the bad starts for example and was happy that I could probably defend any of the points and most seem to agree.
Eventually you will agree more and more with all of the things I say because I do the same thing for every word I. You will come to love me and hang on my every word. And EFC will win the Champions League in 2013
Martin
I have read each of your posts again and seen you challenge people to provide alternative solutions and ideas, which a lot of posters have done.
The BU and like-minded supporters have a very clear set of objectives and a vision for change.
Yet, you have contributed nothing to the debate. What is BK's vision for EFC? What do you and those who think that this board is made up of "exceptional people" believe is the road map for the club's future?
How are we going to reduce our debt and give our manager ? whoever he maybe ? a respectable transfer and wage kitty so that the club can compete for trophies?
I have read each of your posts again and seen you challenge people to provide alternative solutions and ideas, which a lot of posters have done.
The BU and like-minded supporters have a very clear set of objectives and a vision for change.
Yet, you have contributed nothing to the debate. What is BK's vision for EFC? What do you and those who think that this board is made up of "exceptional people" believe is the road map for the club's future?
How are we going to reduce our debt and give our manager ? whoever he maybe ? a respectable transfer and wage kitty so that the club can compete for trophies?
Amit
I've pointed out very clearly how I personally see the club being run in the future.
I don't know what the board's road map is for the future.
Again, I've said clearly that I don't believe we can reduce our debt AND give the manager funds to enable us to compete for trophies (to say nothing of a new ground). I believe that these are mutually exclusive outcomes. To do that we need a benefactor and I don't believe we will get one.
I'm not sure how I can be clearer on my views.
BU's vision for change, whilst admirable in its intent is not as you say very clear. It's an illusion.
I've pointed out very clearly how I personally see the club being run in the future.
I don't know what the board's road map is for the future.
Again, I've said clearly that I don't believe we can reduce our debt AND give the manager funds to enable us to compete for trophies (to say nothing of a new ground). I believe that these are mutually exclusive outcomes. To do that we need a benefactor and I don't believe we will get one.
I'm not sure how I can be clearer on my views.
BU's vision for change, whilst admirable in its intent is not as you say very clear. It's an illusion.
I don't believe we can reduce our debt AND give the manager funds to enable us to compete for trophies (to say nothing of a new ground) WITH THE CURRENT BOARD.
would be more correct.
would be more correct.
Martin 062; I stand by my original comment Re spiders. Don't forget, you can only wind me up if I let you... and I don't..nor should anyone else
Martin.... you haven't pointed out anything clearly at all. Amit posted clear and concise bullet points and once again you skirted around all of them. Previously I responded directly to every point you made...... you couldn't answer! Several others have done similar..... as ever no direct answers.
You never respond to any stats or details and only offer vague opinion or skewed contradiction as shown repeatedly. You say that the club has been mismanaged to feign some meagre credibility then fabricate excuses for their repeated failures.
The board have an obligation to move the club forward. This they have failed to achieve by ANY measure. The simplistic and eroneous argument that they are only responsible to shareholders and making a profit for themselves is meaningless both in the context of footy clubs.... and by the fact thatheyve failed miserably in this regard too. As stated shareholders do not receive any dividend and the share value has only dropped during their tenure. There has been zero analysis and evidence in any argument made. You've said that you've read all the links and yet never offer the offending details as proof of anything. The only examples you have given thus far have been that of pompey and rangers which again you say you've read all about.... but when asked for the relevant comparisons/details nothing is forthcoming. Our parot could've managed the same level of analysis.
It is increasingly evident that your only real gripe is with the BU, KEIOC, Col fitz or some combination thereof. This would appear to stem back to the DK debacle which you still try to defend long after even the club dropped it like the fundamentally flawed farce that it was. Your ego won't allow you to now agree with anything originating from those who were shown tyo be right all along.... it would mean that you might have to "retire defeated". Far better to spout thousands of lines of contradictory and wholly unsubstatiated shite than to admit to being wrong.
You never respond to any stats or details and only offer vague opinion or skewed contradiction as shown repeatedly. You say that the club has been mismanaged to feign some meagre credibility then fabricate excuses for their repeated failures.
The board have an obligation to move the club forward. This they have failed to achieve by ANY measure. The simplistic and eroneous argument that they are only responsible to shareholders and making a profit for themselves is meaningless both in the context of footy clubs.... and by the fact thatheyve failed miserably in this regard too. As stated shareholders do not receive any dividend and the share value has only dropped during their tenure. There has been zero analysis and evidence in any argument made. You've said that you've read all the links and yet never offer the offending details as proof of anything. The only examples you have given thus far have been that of pompey and rangers which again you say you've read all about.... but when asked for the relevant comparisons/details nothing is forthcoming. Our parot could've managed the same level of analysis.
It is increasingly evident that your only real gripe is with the BU, KEIOC, Col fitz or some combination thereof. This would appear to stem back to the DK debacle which you still try to defend long after even the club dropped it like the fundamentally flawed farce that it was. Your ego won't allow you to now agree with anything originating from those who were shown tyo be right all along.... it would mean that you might have to "retire defeated". Far better to spout thousands of lines of contradictory and wholly unsubstatiated shite than to admit to being wrong.
Martin.... you haven't pointed out anything clearly at all. Amit posted clear and concise bullet points and once again you skirted around all of them. Previously I responded directly to every point you made...... you couldn't answer! Several others have done similar..... as ever no direct answers.
You never respond to any stats or details and only offer vague opinion or skewed contradiction as shown repeatedly. You say that the club has been mismanaged to feign some meagre credibility then fabricate excuses for their repeated failures.
The board have an obligation to move the club forward. This they have failed to achieve by ANY measure. The simplistic and eroneous argument that they are only responsible to shareholders and making a profit for themselves is meaningless both in the context of footy clubs.... and by the fact thatheyve failed miserably in this regard too. As stated shareholders do not receive any dividend and the share value has only dropped during their tenure. There has been zero analysis and evidence in any argument made. You've said that you've read all the links and yet never offer the offending details as proof of anything. The only examples you have given thus far have been that of pompey and rangers which again you say you've read all about.... but when asked for the relevant comparisons/details nothing is forthcoming. Our parot could've managed the same level of analysis.
It is increasingly evident that your only real gripe is with the BU, KEIOC, Col fitz or some combination thereof. This would appear to stem back to the DK debacle which you still try to defend long after even the club dropped it like the fundamentally flawed farce that it was. Your ego won't allow you to now agree with anything originating from those who were shown tyo be right all along.... it would mean that you might have to "retire defeated". Far better to spout thousands of lines of contradictory and wholly unsubstatiated shite than to admit to being wrong.
You never respond to any stats or details and only offer vague opinion or skewed contradiction as shown repeatedly. You say that the club has been mismanaged to feign some meagre credibility then fabricate excuses for their repeated failures.
The board have an obligation to move the club forward. This they have failed to achieve by ANY measure. The simplistic and eroneous argument that they are only responsible to shareholders and making a profit for themselves is meaningless both in the context of footy clubs.... and by the fact thatheyve failed miserably in this regard too. As stated shareholders do not receive any dividend and the share value has only dropped during their tenure. There has been zero analysis and evidence in any argument made. You've said that you've read all the links and yet never offer the offending details as proof of anything. The only examples you have given thus far have been that of pompey and rangers which again you say you've read all about.... but when asked for the relevant comparisons/details nothing is forthcoming. Our parot could've managed the same level of analysis.
It is increasingly evident that your only real gripe is with the BU, KEIOC, Col fitz or some combination thereof. This would appear to stem back to the DK debacle which you still try to defend long after even the club dropped it like the fundamentally flawed farce that it was. Your ego won't allow you to now agree with anything originating from those who were shown tyo be right all along.... it would mean that you might have to "retire defeated". Far better to spout thousands of lines of contradictory and wholly unsubstatiated shite than to admit to being wrong.
The parot posted the second one......
Tom 190;We would all be better of listening to your Parrot than the deceased, passed over, etc, etc. of the Norwegian ( so called ) blue that is Martin Mason. Common name: lesser spotted wind up merchant. We should all starve him of the oxygen he so obviously desires, by not reading or replying to any more of his sqwarking.
Tom, I answered all of Amit's points and I'll answer yours if you stop writing such long winded bluster. I'll start by telling you that the club has no obligation to move the club forward, that is simply your opinion, it is baseless. Now start making your points sensibly and unemotionally and I'll answer them.
Last night I watched what you all want Everton to have, a billionaire owner. That is Fulham with Fayed. You will note that they run a very tight ship and he puts none of his own money into the club. That is basically the same as Lerner at Villa and Ashley at Newcastle, it is the only way that a club can be run for sustainability. Chelsea and City are the only clubs who are run by what the small minority of our fans want and that is by far our least likely option
Obviously I'm a wind-up merchant, I mean, anybody who disagrees with the old hackneyed jaundiced views about EFC must be mustn't they. If I were a wind-up merchant I'd have many of you on here dangling on lines. To be honest the analogy here is a fisherman not casting his line into the river but leaving lines with hooks on the tow path and the fish jump out and swallow the hooks voluntarily.
Come on guys, stop the playground stuff, be specific in what you raise (no fog spraying) and you will be answered. Nobody'e answered my two questions yet (no, very, very few have answered any of the points I've raised) but I'm expected to not only answer hundreds but answer them every day.
Last night I watched what you all want Everton to have, a billionaire owner. That is Fulham with Fayed. You will note that they run a very tight ship and he puts none of his own money into the club. That is basically the same as Lerner at Villa and Ashley at Newcastle, it is the only way that a club can be run for sustainability. Chelsea and City are the only clubs who are run by what the small minority of our fans want and that is by far our least likely option
Obviously I'm a wind-up merchant, I mean, anybody who disagrees with the old hackneyed jaundiced views about EFC must be mustn't they. If I were a wind-up merchant I'd have many of you on here dangling on lines. To be honest the analogy here is a fisherman not casting his line into the river but leaving lines with hooks on the tow path and the fish jump out and swallow the hooks voluntarily.
Come on guys, stop the playground stuff, be specific in what you raise (no fog spraying) and you will be answered. Nobody'e answered my two questions yet (no, very, very few have answered any of the points I've raised) but I'm expected to not only answer hundreds but answer them every day.
Tom, sometimes I feel that it is no use knocking when nobody is in but I don't defend the DK debacle, it was exactly that. You don't understand what I have said do you? Colin also didn't have a clue and it is true of many agenda driven and over emotional people. The down I have on Colin is that he has insufficient intelligence to discuss issues rationally. The only "down" I have on BU is their irrational expectations and lack of sensible objectives.
Martin, re your comment..
"I'll start by telling you that the club has no obligation to move the club forward, that is simply your opinion, it is baseless"
Can I refer you to the following sections of the companies act with respect to Directors duties;
2.Section 172 ? Duty to promote the success of the company ? as a Director you must act in good faith for the success of the company and benefit of the shareholders having regard to the likely consequences of any decision long term. This will include considering the interests of employees, business relationships with suppliers, customers and others, the impact on the community and environment, maintaining the reputation of the company for having high standards of business conduct, acting fairly between members of the company and; subject to the legal requirements, to consider and act in the interests of creditors.
Furthermore:
3.Section 173 ? Duty to exercise independent judgment ? the company is a completely separate entity to you as director. Therefore, as a director you must consider whether a deal with the company which you own will be the best deal for the company as opposed to yourself. At the time a decision is made the matters raised in the rest of Chapter 2 of the Act need to be considered so that you are you acting in good faith and solely for the benefit of the company taking all the circumstances into account and not for example, creating a conflict of interest
So you see Martin, by law the Director HAS to act in the best interest of the business stakeholders AS HIS FIRST DUTY. Not another shareholder or himself.
Whilst making a profit is the objective, it has to be done with the interests of all stakeholders first over and above other Directors, shareholders and themselves. That is enshrined in law.
Duty to promote the success of the company
?What is success? The starting point is that it is essentially for the members of the company to define the objective they wish to achieve. Success means what the members collectively want the company to achieve. For a commercial company, success will usually mean long-term increase in value. it will mean the attainment of the objectives for which the company has been established?.
Lord Goldsmith, Lords Grand Committee, 6 February 2006
"I'll start by telling you that the club has no obligation to move the club forward, that is simply your opinion, it is baseless"
Can I refer you to the following sections of the companies act with respect to Directors duties;
2.Section 172 ? Duty to promote the success of the company ? as a Director you must act in good faith for the success of the company and benefit of the shareholders having regard to the likely consequences of any decision long term. This will include considering the interests of employees, business relationships with suppliers, customers and others, the impact on the community and environment, maintaining the reputation of the company for having high standards of business conduct, acting fairly between members of the company and; subject to the legal requirements, to consider and act in the interests of creditors.
Furthermore:
3.Section 173 ? Duty to exercise independent judgment ? the company is a completely separate entity to you as director. Therefore, as a director you must consider whether a deal with the company which you own will be the best deal for the company as opposed to yourself. At the time a decision is made the matters raised in the rest of Chapter 2 of the Act need to be considered so that you are you acting in good faith and solely for the benefit of the company taking all the circumstances into account and not for example, creating a conflict of interest
So you see Martin, by law the Director HAS to act in the best interest of the business stakeholders AS HIS FIRST DUTY. Not another shareholder or himself.
Whilst making a profit is the objective, it has to be done with the interests of all stakeholders first over and above other Directors, shareholders and themselves. That is enshrined in law.
Duty to promote the success of the company
?What is success? The starting point is that it is essentially for the members of the company to define the objective they wish to achieve. Success means what the members collectively want the company to achieve. For a commercial company, success will usually mean long-term increase in value. it will mean the attainment of the objectives for which the company has been established?.
Lord Goldsmith, Lords Grand Committee, 6 February 2006
I see Martian is still banging on, bless.
"The down I have on Colin is that he has insufficient intelligence to discuss issues rationally. The only "down" I have on BU is their irrational expectations and lack of sensible objectives."
That would be their sensible objective that professionals be brought in to deal with the sale of the club; an irrational expectation that has just been realised with the very company the Blue Union specified, Inner Circle Sports, handling the sale of Everton, as seen in last weeks Echo.
Poor old Martian, clueless in Kazakhstan!
"The down I have on Colin is that he has insufficient intelligence to discuss issues rationally. The only "down" I have on BU is their irrational expectations and lack of sensible objectives."
That would be their sensible objective that professionals be brought in to deal with the sale of the club; an irrational expectation that has just been realised with the very company the Blue Union specified, Inner Circle Sports, handling the sale of Everton, as seen in last weeks Echo.
Poor old Martian, clueless in Kazakhstan!
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664 Posted 29/02/2012 at 22:19:18
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