Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Moyes top 8?
95 Comments: In recent articles around the web, Alex Ferguson has claimed that David Moyes is amongst the top six managers in the Premier League... so who is better than Moyes?
These are the managers in my opinion that are better than
Moyes but not in any order:?
Alex Ferguson
Arsene Wenger
Roberto Mancini
Harry Redknapp
Andre Villas-Boas
Martin Jol
Mark Hughes
Martin O'Neil
...and, as much as it pains me to say it, even Kenny Daglish.
So I have Moyes down as tenth at best....
Where does Moyes come on your list?
Richard Reeves, Posted 05/03/2012 at 14:21:36
Comments
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I didn't see you'd writen Mark Hughes as well! Good god man! Have a word with yourself! If you haven't got anything productive to write about, then just don't bother!
AVB, Hughes and O'Neill? Sorry, but no. Unsure on Jol. The rest yes, and you could maybe now include Pardew and Lambert based on this year. I'm not Moyes's biggest fan but it would be interesting to see what he could do at somewhere like Chelsea.
I also wonder if he would do as good a job as Lambert is doing at Norwich, on a tight budget like ours and getting them playing good football like they are doing now with a load of Championship players. I don't think so.
I also wonder if he would do as good a job as Lambert is doing at Norwich, on a tight budget like ours and getting them playing good football like they are doing now with a load of Championship players. I don't think so.
I think you are being a bit harsh on Moyes there Richard.
For me it's Fergie,Wenger,Dalglish for sure.
The rest you can argue about but I don't honestly believe any of them are clearly superior to Moyes.
Some may play more attacking football but how many of them have consistently finished above Moyes?
If David Moyes had the money Redknapp has had to spend at Pompey and Spurs then I'm quite sure (but we'll never know) he would have won at least one cup.
O'Neill might have won things in Scotland but Moyes constantly got us finishing above Martin's Villa teams.
For me it's Fergie,Wenger,Dalglish for sure.
The rest you can argue about but I don't honestly believe any of them are clearly superior to Moyes.
Some may play more attacking football but how many of them have consistently finished above Moyes?
If David Moyes had the money Redknapp has had to spend at Pompey and Spurs then I'm quite sure (but we'll never know) he would have won at least one cup.
O'Neill might have won things in Scotland but Moyes constantly got us finishing above Martin's Villa teams.
Sorry I forgot about Mancini. He is definitely above Moyes.
Although we can never, ever say that Davey underestimates the opposition.
Although we can never, ever say that Davey underestimates the opposition.
Ferguson and Wenger go without saying and Redknapp is better than Moyes in the market particularly with forwards.
Other than that there's a dearth of proven EPL talent, the fact Dalglish is back at the RS is testament enough. The very idea would have caused much hilarity a few years ago, mind you his transfer policy has managed the same.
Other than that there's a dearth of proven EPL talent, the fact Dalglish is back at the RS is testament enough. The very idea would have caused much hilarity a few years ago, mind you his transfer policy has managed the same.
Moyes would TOP my list every day!
AVB ? won four trophies last year. That's four more than Moyes has ever won.
O'Neill ? took a shite Celtic to the Uefa cup final and Villa to two domestic finals in the space of a few years.
Jol and Hughes??? Can't see it myself.
The rest it goes without saying due to their respective records.
Pulis deserves a mention and despite what a lot of people say he is doing a good job at Stoke. It's hard to see how Moyes would have done better there.
Pardew is also doing a brilliant job at Newcastle, though I'd expect to see him keep them above us for at least another season before I'd place him higher than Moyes.
O'Neill ? took a shite Celtic to the Uefa cup final and Villa to two domestic finals in the space of a few years.
Jol and Hughes??? Can't see it myself.
The rest it goes without saying due to their respective records.
Pulis deserves a mention and despite what a lot of people say he is doing a good job at Stoke. It's hard to see how Moyes would have done better there.
Pardew is also doing a brilliant job at Newcastle, though I'd expect to see him keep them above us for at least another season before I'd place him higher than Moyes.
Richard,
Were not debating wank material!!!
Were not debating wank material!!!
Mancini.........?!
If I was David Moyes I'd have something to say about that.
I think the others are all up for debate bar Wenger and Ferguson. I'd probably put him below O'Neill, on a par with Jol, better than Hughes and Mancini, difficult to judge against AVB and not sure about Redknapp. Just because I dont think you can be sure about anything about Redknapp!
If I was David Moyes I'd have something to say about that.
I think the others are all up for debate bar Wenger and Ferguson. I'd probably put him below O'Neill, on a par with Jol, better than Hughes and Mancini, difficult to judge against AVB and not sure about Redknapp. Just because I dont think you can be sure about anything about Redknapp!
One of the worst posts I have ever seen on this website. Moyes certainly has his faults but he finished 4th with a team that was absolutely shite. At least half of those managers would surely admit to not being as good as moyes. Redknapp and oneil are media golden boys who have spent vast amounts more than us and rarely finished higher. Jol spent 100 million on and already expensively assembled squad and we twatted them. Hughes can fuck off too. Ferg face and wenger definitely and possibly dalglishs as his record is excellent. Not even gonna comment on martinez. Only my opinion like but I really can't believe this post.
Not a great post - but Phil 496 made me laugh, with his 100% dismissal of Hughes with
"Hughes can fuck off too"
- better than the original topic that is hardly worth debating......
"Hughes can fuck off too"
- better than the original topic that is hardly worth debating......
Dalglish? The man spent 75million on Downing, Carrol & Henderson! would Moyes be better in your eyes if he'd done that?
Victor,
Probably the only trophy he hasn't won is world's biggest wanker!!! And we all know he's the people's champion in that field!!!
Fact is he's won far more than Moyes.
Probably the only trophy he hasn't won is world's biggest wanker!!! And we all know he's the people's champion in that field!!!
Fact is he's won far more than Moyes.
I haven't stopped laughing at Mark Hughes.
As the article said he was "top 6", then these are my other 5:
Ferguson
Wenger
Redknapp
Mancini
Hodgson
Ferguson
Wenger
Redknapp
Mancini
Hodgson
After the motivational and tactical halftime team talk at QPR I think Stan Laurel has to be up there with Fergy etc. :-)
My opinion of Moyes the manager isn't very high these days..
I think whatever he's 'achieved', he 'jumped the shark' about three seasons back.
I think he's done all he's ever going to do with Everton (which imo hasn't been all that much, stretched over 10 years).
I do think he's a decent bloke (certainly compared to a shifty twat like Redknapp or a baseball-cap wearing dickweed like Pulis) but I'd love to see him gone.
However to be fair to him, the the question is 'who is better than Moyes?', which (see posts above) leaves a lot of room for debate.
So Fergie and Wenger?
No question.
Dalglish?
Well there have been two Dalglish managerial careers.
The first one I always thought was a combination of him not really messing with a team put together by Fat Bob and Uncle Joe, then having what (at the time) was more money than anyone else with Blackburn.
It was all going fine until the 4-4 game and (by his own admission, although only recently in some book) he cracked, couldn't take the pressure.
The second career is now and yes he has picked up a trophy.
However I'm not convinced about 'King' Kenny.
I think he was blessed by circumstances first time around and believe had they lost the penalty shootout against Cardiff, there might have been open revolt given their league standing and desperate home form.
(and don't think 'It would never happen' - remember, they were parading the streets with framed pictures of Benitez - next thing, they're all over the phone ins giving it "The man doesn't know what his best TEAM is" etc blah).
Yes he has a trophy but..has he 'taken them forward'?
As for the rest, well the rest are..just that.
Hobson's choice imo
Personally I've always been a fan of Martin O'Neil and right now I'd have him over Moyes, however from that list, I couldn't really (honestly) say 4/5/6/ etc are BETTER.
(could be a long oul' thread though - it has that 'feel')
I think whatever he's 'achieved', he 'jumped the shark' about three seasons back.
I think he's done all he's ever going to do with Everton (which imo hasn't been all that much, stretched over 10 years).
I do think he's a decent bloke (certainly compared to a shifty twat like Redknapp or a baseball-cap wearing dickweed like Pulis) but I'd love to see him gone.
However to be fair to him, the the question is 'who is better than Moyes?', which (see posts above) leaves a lot of room for debate.
So Fergie and Wenger?
No question.
Dalglish?
Well there have been two Dalglish managerial careers.
The first one I always thought was a combination of him not really messing with a team put together by Fat Bob and Uncle Joe, then having what (at the time) was more money than anyone else with Blackburn.
It was all going fine until the 4-4 game and (by his own admission, although only recently in some book) he cracked, couldn't take the pressure.
The second career is now and yes he has picked up a trophy.
However I'm not convinced about 'King' Kenny.
I think he was blessed by circumstances first time around and believe had they lost the penalty shootout against Cardiff, there might have been open revolt given their league standing and desperate home form.
(and don't think 'It would never happen' - remember, they were parading the streets with framed pictures of Benitez - next thing, they're all over the phone ins giving it "The man doesn't know what his best TEAM is" etc blah).
Yes he has a trophy but..has he 'taken them forward'?
As for the rest, well the rest are..just that.
Hobson's choice imo
Personally I've always been a fan of Martin O'Neil and right now I'd have him over Moyes, however from that list, I couldn't really (honestly) say 4/5/6/ etc are BETTER.
(could be a long oul' thread though - it has that 'feel')
Stephen Kenny - 483- Nice one!!
Sorry Richrad, Carrie Grant, Shirley Manson and Lauren Laverne for me.
Sorry Richrad, Carrie Grant, Shirley Manson and Lauren Laverne for me.
Daglish and Hughes... no; I agree with the rest. Martin O'Neil also won 2 league cups with Leicester, and I rate Martin Jol. Harry spends big but the football is great to watch.
Infact Dalglish is even more morose than Moyes. Although Terry Christian can be annoying, he did put Dalglish in Room 101 many years ago.
A very difficult question. Wenger and Ferguson and O'Neill, yes. Dalglish, never. After that we are looking at potential, and there I'd be looking at Lambert and Rodgers. Outside the premier league there are managers with plenty of potential and that's were Moyes's replacement will eventually come from.
A very difficult question. Wenger and Ferguson and O'Neill, yes. Dalglish, never. After that we are looking at potential, and there I'd be looking at Lambert and Rodgers. Outside the premier league there are managers with plenty of potential and that's were Moyes's replacement will eventually come from.
I guess it depends on when you ask the question. Over the last 10 years Moyes would defo be up there with Fergie, etc as he's won the Manager of the Year 3 times in that time. But so could a load of others if you asked the question in a different year.
How many would have put Coyle in there last year? Even Mcleish may have had a shout. Theres probably loads over the 10 years but i cant remember them. In 10 years time I probably wont remember half the ones you have said either. Some of the names you have thrown in though are laughable...Hughes (whats he done), Jol (whats he done either?) AVB, (you avin a laugh, one season in portugal!!)
Not a great post Richard....
How many would have put Coyle in there last year? Even Mcleish may have had a shout. Theres probably loads over the 10 years but i cant remember them. In 10 years time I probably wont remember half the ones you have said either. Some of the names you have thrown in though are laughable...Hughes (whats he done), Jol (whats he done either?) AVB, (you avin a laugh, one season in portugal!!)
Not a great post Richard....
Lambert and Rogers did what Moyes failed to do at Preston and that's take them up, they bottled it in the playoff final ? sound familiar? I also think that he wouldn't be able to play that great brand of football them two managers are doing with their clubs if he was in charge of them.
Also tactically I think he's poor: take Sporting away and various games v the top 4, tho I do think putting Daglish in a top 6 too is laughable with the money he wastes and their poor league position. For me, those better would be: Ferguson, Wenger, O'Neill, Lambert, Pulis, Jol, Rodgers, Hodgson, Redknapp.
Also tactically I think he's poor: take Sporting away and various games v the top 4, tho I do think putting Daglish in a top 6 too is laughable with the money he wastes and their poor league position. For me, those better would be: Ferguson, Wenger, O'Neill, Lambert, Pulis, Jol, Rodgers, Hodgson, Redknapp.
Pointless article...Dalglish has failed in his current tenure. Liverpool have wasted well over 100million on players in 14 months and realistically have not improved at all.
We are talking about the prem success I assume? if so, then AVB is a big no no, whilst I can't see any justifiable reason why O'Neil, Hughes and Jol should be voted higher.
We are talking about the prem success I assume? if so, then AVB is a big no no, whilst I can't see any justifiable reason why O'Neil, Hughes and Jol should be voted higher.
AVB ? you have to be joking. Even well before yesterday, I knew he was not up to the Prem job.
Firstly, the Portuguese league is like many other second-rate leagues in Europe. After Benfica, Porto and Sporting, the rest are crap. For one lucky season he had at Porto and the Europa Cup idiot millionaire paid out millions in compensation to get him and look what happened. AVB was clearly out of his depth but laughing all the way to the bank right now.
Obviously Ferguson, Wenger rate a long way ahead of Moyes and Redknapp. Winning things is the yardstick.
Firstly, the Portuguese league is like many other second-rate leagues in Europe. After Benfica, Porto and Sporting, the rest are crap. For one lucky season he had at Porto and the Europa Cup idiot millionaire paid out millions in compensation to get him and look what happened. AVB was clearly out of his depth but laughing all the way to the bank right now.
Obviously Ferguson, Wenger rate a long way ahead of Moyes and Redknapp. Winning things is the yardstick.
Mancini's record against Moyes
found a billion quid - Lost 5 games won 1
And Mancini is a better manager than Moyes... right
found a billion quid - Lost 5 games won 1
And Mancini is a better manager than Moyes... right
Kevin Sparke
Is your criteria for judging Moyes over ten years is whether he beat Man city a few times?
Man city are top of the league. Moyes will never be top. Moyes will never win anything. Moyes will still be in his Goodison office in ten years with his outdated tactical masterplans " one up front and eleven behind the ball" and " I would never sign Messi because he never tracks back". He will be sat there by the phone like a modern day Miss Havisham for another ten years waiting for a top club to call . .... and Goodison will be empty.
Is your criteria for judging Moyes over ten years is whether he beat Man city a few times?
Man city are top of the league. Moyes will never be top. Moyes will never win anything. Moyes will still be in his Goodison office in ten years with his outdated tactical masterplans " one up front and eleven behind the ball" and " I would never sign Messi because he never tracks back". He will be sat there by the phone like a modern day Miss Havisham for another ten years waiting for a top club to call . .... and Goodison will be empty.
Personally, I think Moyes is in the top 5 in the premier leaague.
My top 10 would be:
1:Fergie
2:Wenger
3:Mancini
4:Moyes
5:O'Neill
6:Hodgson
7:Arry
8:Jol
9:Dalgish
10:McLeish.
Fergie and Wenger are obviously the top two with what they have achieved in the last 20 years. Mancini has won League titles and cups in Italy as well as the FA Cup with City with plenty of money but money spent well.
Moyes, has his faults and can be too defensive at times and stubborn but he has brought us from the brink of relegation to consistently challenge for Europe with jack all to spend.
Martin O'Neill broke the dominance of Rangers and also nearly won the Uefa Cup after being cheated by Porto at Celtic, also he won a couple of Carling Cups at Leicester.
Hodgson did wonders at Fulham with keeping them up and getting to the Europa League final, but also has won titles in Scandinavia and brought Switzerland to the Euros back in the 90s.
Redknapp is vastly over-rated by the English media. He spent vast amounts at Pompey and won the FA Cup there but then scarpered and the club is on the brink of going out of business. He has done well at Spurs but again has spent a lot, however he is a good motivator and encourages attractive football.
Martin Jol built the a really good Spurs side a few years back and now has built a solid yet attractive Fulham side.
Dalglish has won the League Cup in his second spell as a manager but has wasted over £100 million on mediocre players and hasn't really improved in his time back.
McLeish won a couple of titles with Rangers and the League Cup with Birmingham but I feel he can't keep a team up in the Premier League.
My top 10 would be:
1:Fergie
2:Wenger
3:Mancini
4:Moyes
5:O'Neill
6:Hodgson
7:Arry
8:Jol
9:Dalgish
10:McLeish.
Fergie and Wenger are obviously the top two with what they have achieved in the last 20 years. Mancini has won League titles and cups in Italy as well as the FA Cup with City with plenty of money but money spent well.
Moyes, has his faults and can be too defensive at times and stubborn but he has brought us from the brink of relegation to consistently challenge for Europe with jack all to spend.
Martin O'Neill broke the dominance of Rangers and also nearly won the Uefa Cup after being cheated by Porto at Celtic, also he won a couple of Carling Cups at Leicester.
Hodgson did wonders at Fulham with keeping them up and getting to the Europa League final, but also has won titles in Scandinavia and brought Switzerland to the Euros back in the 90s.
Redknapp is vastly over-rated by the English media. He spent vast amounts at Pompey and won the FA Cup there but then scarpered and the club is on the brink of going out of business. He has done well at Spurs but again has spent a lot, however he is a good motivator and encourages attractive football.
Martin Jol built the a really good Spurs side a few years back and now has built a solid yet attractive Fulham side.
Dalglish has won the League Cup in his second spell as a manager but has wasted over £100 million on mediocre players and hasn't really improved in his time back.
McLeish won a couple of titles with Rangers and the League Cup with Birmingham but I feel he can't keep a team up in the Premier League.
No Ian - I was responding to assertion that Mancini is a better manager than Moyes.
In terms of head to head on the win statistics, Moyes kinda shades it - do you not think?
In terms of head to head on the win statistics, Moyes kinda shades it - do you not think?
Ian, Moyes will never be top, because we have no money. Get your head out of the clouds and into reality. Money makes winners in league football, nothing else. That is why Real and Barca dominate Spain, and why the Prem is dominated by the big spenders. End of.
Exactly, Jim (584). You can only really compare like with like. A proper analysis requires some actuarial formula that takes into account factors like available personel, money, etc., etc. against results. For me, despite all of the bile on this site against him, the fact that we are 10th in the EPL at the moment with our resources (cough, splutter...) is testament to the fact that Moyes is a bloody outstanding manager.
Ferguson
Wenger
Redknapp
are a lot better.
Mancini, AVB, O'Neill could claim to be better as they have won trophies.
I like Jol I think he is very underrated and was unlucky to lose the spurs job.
So where does that leave moyes? On a good day he is up with the best but on the flip side he can be tactically amongst the worst.
Wenger
Redknapp
are a lot better.
Mancini, AVB, O'Neill could claim to be better as they have won trophies.
I like Jol I think he is very underrated and was unlucky to lose the spurs job.
So where does that leave moyes? On a good day he is up with the best but on the flip side he can be tactically amongst the worst.
Kevin Spark,
Moyes shades it, yes, head to head, that is. But that is totally irrelevant as City will probably win the league and no matter how many times you loose to Moyes, that won't take the edge of it.
Anyway comparing the two, in the trophy department ? no contest... more of a total eclipse by Mancini.
Moyes shades it, yes, head to head, that is. But that is totally irrelevant as City will probably win the league and no matter how many times you loose to Moyes, that won't take the edge of it.
Anyway comparing the two, in the trophy department ? no contest... more of a total eclipse by Mancini.
Chelsea fans on their forum don't want Moyes, they want Wilkins and Mourhino reinstated plus a £500m budget to rebuild the team getting rid of most of the aging players: Lampard, Terry and Co can go, it seems. Now what would David Moyes do with £500m if appointed to the job?
Fellaini for £40mil for a start and perhaps Baines for £20mil; Jagielka for £15m and maybe Rodwell for £15m. He could offer £80m for Rooney, £100m for Ronanldo and or Messi... sell off the rest for £200m. Maybe it would be easier just to buy Barcelona and transplant them to Stamford Bridge.
Last estimate was that Abromivich was worth £20 billion so he can buy whoever he wants just from the loose change in his arse pocket. I would love David Moyes to get his chance to manage them and prove he can mix it with the best given the funds to do it. He would have no excuses and he can prove to us that he is indeed the best manager in the Prem.
Personally I don't reckon he has a snowflake in hell's chance and will probably issue a statement along the lines that his job at Everton is still undone. But then what would you expect from this spineless excuse of a ...........Argh
Fellaini for £40mil for a start and perhaps Baines for £20mil; Jagielka for £15m and maybe Rodwell for £15m. He could offer £80m for Rooney, £100m for Ronanldo and or Messi... sell off the rest for £200m. Maybe it would be easier just to buy Barcelona and transplant them to Stamford Bridge.
Last estimate was that Abromivich was worth £20 billion so he can buy whoever he wants just from the loose change in his arse pocket. I would love David Moyes to get his chance to manage them and prove he can mix it with the best given the funds to do it. He would have no excuses and he can prove to us that he is indeed the best manager in the Prem.
Personally I don't reckon he has a snowflake in hell's chance and will probably issue a statement along the lines that his job at Everton is still undone. But then what would you expect from this spineless excuse of a ...........Argh
Just thinking aloud Shaun - but do you think Moyes would still be a better manager than Mancini if Moyes had Mancini's budget and Mancini had Moyes's?
Because I'm not so sure - I do know that I'd be mighty pissed off at him if he managed to get beat 5 times out of six playing a team with far inferior players...
Oh, and by the way - that's 'lose' not 'loose'
Loose, as in screw loose...
Lose as in I hope we don't
Because I'm not so sure - I do know that I'd be mighty pissed off at him if he managed to get beat 5 times out of six playing a team with far inferior players...
Oh, and by the way - that's 'lose' not 'loose'
Loose, as in screw loose...
Lose as in I hope we don't
Mancini!?!?!
You having a laugh?
Give him our squad, our budget and let us see whom is better.
DM everytime!
You having a laugh?
Give him our squad, our budget and let us see whom is better.
DM everytime!
Depends what you want.
Stabilise a club in trouble on a lited budget - Moyes has proven himself top of that particular tree.
But after that I'd want a winner - and I don't think that's Moyes.
Stabilise a club in trouble on a lited budget - Moyes has proven himself top of that particular tree.
But after that I'd want a winner - and I don't think that's Moyes.
Yes, I do believe Mancini would be a better manager.
He has a history of winning, both as a manager and as a player.
He has a history of winning, both as a manager and as a player.
Bit of a daft proposition if you ask me. You can't reliably compare anything without the yardstick of a level playing field and as we all know the Premier League is far from that.
Every manager will have his positives and his negatives but the great indeterminate is the budget they have to work with.
As somebody else has already mentioned, how would Mancini perform if he had to work with the budget Everton could give him?
Ferguson persistently underestimates the opposition in cup games, plays the wrong team and often gets tonked for it.
AVB has just been sacked, Jol nearly presided over relegation for Spurs and was sacked, Dalglish couldn't take the pressure at Liverpool, fucked up a good Newcastle side left to him by Keegan and was moved on and eventually gave up football management until this most recent messiahship. The way he handled the Suarez/Evra business however tells me he's a fucking dickhead.
Hawwy is Hawwy. The Delboy of football. Much loved East-End laddo who spends loads and most of which is wasted but, because he spends loads, he comes up with the occasional gem. He's a media darling because the media love guys like him and it is the media that wants him to manage England far more, I suspect, than the FA does.
Somebody above also said that winning trophies is the measure of the manager. Well, is it really? That may be the case with the league, there can't be much doubting that... but you can't win the league without vast resources nowadays and Moyes cannot be responsible for the budget he has to work with at Everton. But what about the cups?
Benitez won the CL with a team that wasn't really his and who weren't even Champions. It was a fluke. But for a while he was assumed to be the bees knees.
McLeish won the League Cup last year at the same time his Birmingham side went down and he is now not yet out of danger of taking Villa down too.
O'Neill won a few things at Celtic but, for fuck's sake, when you're guaranteed European footy every season by finishing first or second before the first game even kicks off, it makes winning things a darn sight bloody easier when there's really only one other team you have to surpass.
All-in-all, given his 10-year tenure at Everton, I'd place Moyes's ability as a manager quite highly given the strictures he is faced with. I also suggest that he stuck with Everton when other ambitious young managers would have quite happily waved goodbye with the promise of a few bob to spend.
He turned a team of annual relegation battlers into a top seven side on average and that ain't bloody easy when you have to sell to buy or borrow to buy when nobody is lending. I would place him ? in any list ? firmly in third place behind Wenger and Ferguson, in that order, and if you disagree, I couldn't give a monkey's!
Every manager will have his positives and his negatives but the great indeterminate is the budget they have to work with.
As somebody else has already mentioned, how would Mancini perform if he had to work with the budget Everton could give him?
Ferguson persistently underestimates the opposition in cup games, plays the wrong team and often gets tonked for it.
AVB has just been sacked, Jol nearly presided over relegation for Spurs and was sacked, Dalglish couldn't take the pressure at Liverpool, fucked up a good Newcastle side left to him by Keegan and was moved on and eventually gave up football management until this most recent messiahship. The way he handled the Suarez/Evra business however tells me he's a fucking dickhead.
Hawwy is Hawwy. The Delboy of football. Much loved East-End laddo who spends loads and most of which is wasted but, because he spends loads, he comes up with the occasional gem. He's a media darling because the media love guys like him and it is the media that wants him to manage England far more, I suspect, than the FA does.
Somebody above also said that winning trophies is the measure of the manager. Well, is it really? That may be the case with the league, there can't be much doubting that... but you can't win the league without vast resources nowadays and Moyes cannot be responsible for the budget he has to work with at Everton. But what about the cups?
Benitez won the CL with a team that wasn't really his and who weren't even Champions. It was a fluke. But for a while he was assumed to be the bees knees.
McLeish won the League Cup last year at the same time his Birmingham side went down and he is now not yet out of danger of taking Villa down too.
O'Neill won a few things at Celtic but, for fuck's sake, when you're guaranteed European footy every season by finishing first or second before the first game even kicks off, it makes winning things a darn sight bloody easier when there's really only one other team you have to surpass.
All-in-all, given his 10-year tenure at Everton, I'd place Moyes's ability as a manager quite highly given the strictures he is faced with. I also suggest that he stuck with Everton when other ambitious young managers would have quite happily waved goodbye with the promise of a few bob to spend.
He turned a team of annual relegation battlers into a top seven side on average and that ain't bloody easy when you have to sell to buy or borrow to buy when nobody is lending. I would place him ? in any list ? firmly in third place behind Wenger and Ferguson, in that order, and if you disagree, I couldn't give a monkey's!
All a matter of opinion, if you ask me!
Managers are a bit like Royston Drenthe ? they go from hero to zero in a couple of matches. Moyes is on a good run and his star is in the ascendancy. Couple of losses and the shout will go up to replace him. But whatever your view, the boy`s done good for Kenwright and kept him in the chair.
Managers are a bit like Royston Drenthe ? they go from hero to zero in a couple of matches. Moyes is on a good run and his star is in the ascendancy. Couple of losses and the shout will go up to replace him. But whatever your view, the boy`s done good for Kenwright and kept him in the chair.
You manage a big club with money then you a have a chance of winning things.
Which is why its always the names of managers who have mnaged the so called big clubs that are always banded around when a top team has a vacancy.
If Moyes went to a club with Money he would win things and thus his name would then be banded around as well.
I am 100% certain that Moyes would do a better job at Chelsea than AVB, Erikksson, Benitez and Capello.
But he will never get the chance as he has won nothing and represents a risk.
Its a circular argument.
Which is why its always the names of managers who have mnaged the so called big clubs that are always banded around when a top team has a vacancy.
If Moyes went to a club with Money he would win things and thus his name would then be banded around as well.
I am 100% certain that Moyes would do a better job at Chelsea than AVB, Erikksson, Benitez and Capello.
But he will never get the chance as he has won nothing and represents a risk.
Its a circular argument.
If we are talking about level playing fields and comparisons, we could look at O'Neil's time with Villa.
Players wise, quite similar, they had a larger budget and we finished near each other for several season. Only one did O'Neil finish above him with the 5/6/7 place battles.
The second the cash dries up, he is off.
Gowes to Sunderland where Bruce has spent 100s of millions and is on the same points as us after playing a game more.
Close call.
I would love to see Mancini at a side with no money, see how good he really was.
Players wise, quite similar, they had a larger budget and we finished near each other for several season. Only one did O'Neil finish above him with the 5/6/7 place battles.
The second the cash dries up, he is off.
Gowes to Sunderland where Bruce has spent 100s of millions and is on the same points as us after playing a game more.
Close call.
I would love to see Mancini at a side with no money, see how good he really was.
He's only behind Fergie and Wenger for actual managerial skill. The fact that Man City aren't 10 points ahead of United now shows either the absolute brilliance of Fergie or the fact that despite having spent 100s of millions on players, Mancini still cannot buy the league title. Dalglish is far worse than Moyes, he builds his teams to play solely off the ball, they never monopolise possession and take it to the other team, they just sit back like they did against Arsenal, then get workhorses like Kuyt and Henderson to smash teams off it give it to Gerrard who releases the forwards quickly. Works agianst the top teams (as we did it against City and Chelsea) but fails against lesser sides who try and do the same to you (as we have also found out).The trophy win was pure luck, Stoke should of beaten them, City were a mile better than them and no one can imagine cardiff missing all those sitters and the penalties. Moyes has never had this luck, when he gets to a final he has arguably the best team in Europe against him, plus he's witohut his three best players. When we played Fiorentina they socred all their pens with aplomb, Rangers were the later beneficiaries of that luck the same way Liverpool have been in countless finals and semis.
Whoever thinks Mark Hughes is better than Moyes needs their head checking. I sometimes wish Moyes would go to celtic win a load of trophies (even easier now) so everyone would shut up about O'Neill winning stuff despite his consistent failure in the premier league even when given lorryfulls of cash.
Whoever thinks Mark Hughes is better than Moyes needs their head checking. I sometimes wish Moyes would go to celtic win a load of trophies (even easier now) so everyone would shut up about O'Neill winning stuff despite his consistent failure in the premier league even when given lorryfulls of cash.
10 years and one FA Cup Final loss... I think Moyes is a lucky man to still be in a job,
The football we have had to watch over the last few years is just defensive boring negative crap. We just kick it from the back looking for a player who is not even up there anyway. He won't get anywhere near any of the top jobs.
The football we have had to watch over the last few years is just defensive boring negative crap. We just kick it from the back looking for a player who is not even up there anyway. He won't get anywhere near any of the top jobs.
Moyes might get on that list but it's hardly anything to crow about.Half of those managers are very average.
Ferguson and Wenger are light years ahead of the rest who could scrap it out and leave no clear winner for me.
Anyone could argue the merits of Redknapp, Mancini, Moyes etc... They are all good managers but not great ones like Wenger or Ferguson.
I
Anyone could argue the merits of Redknapp, Mancini, Moyes etc... They are all good managers but not great ones like Wenger or Ferguson.
I
James, why should everyone shut up about O'Neil winning stuff?
At the end of the day, guiding Leicester to 3 league cup finals, winning 2 of them, and taking Celtic to a EUFA cup final can hardly be dismissed. He guided Wycombe into the football league, and the following season got them promoted to Div 2.
Also, he guided Villa to three succesive sixth - place finishes, an F.A cup semi - final and Carling cup final, and has beaten Man U at Old Trafford, ans the shite at Anfield.
All info copyright of a Villa mate of mine.
At the end of the day, guiding Leicester to 3 league cup finals, winning 2 of them, and taking Celtic to a EUFA cup final can hardly be dismissed. He guided Wycombe into the football league, and the following season got them promoted to Div 2.
Also, he guided Villa to three succesive sixth - place finishes, an F.A cup semi - final and Carling cup final, and has beaten Man U at Old Trafford, ans the shite at Anfield.
All info copyright of a Villa mate of mine.
Half the stuff O Neill is being lauded for Moyes is beaten for 'three successive sixth place finishes' weren't two of them behind Moyes in fifth despite having spent nowhere near what O'Neill had. FA cup semis and Carling cup finals with Villa all lost, similar record to Moyes in that respect. Personally 3 points at Anfield or Old trafford are exactly the same as 3 points anywhere else, they feel good but they're not success are they, his consistent finishes behind Moyes shows that he obviously couldn't match his consistency elsewhere.
James, you said O'Neill was a consistant failure with Villa in the prem, I was pointing out that what he achieved could hardly be classed as consistant failure. Also, he has two trophy winning medals next to his name, both with Leicester, who were hardly a huge club with loads of dosh.
By the way James, its funny how you twist it to suit your arguement. I wasn't comparing what he has achieved to what Moyes has, I was pointing out that you can't dismiss what O'Neill has achieved as a manager.
James you say "FA cup semis and Carling cup finals with Villa all lost, similar record to Moyes in that respect." under Moyes we have had one FA Cup Semi and one FA Cup Final, remind me again when he got us to any Carling Cup finals?
David Moyes
Managerial
With Preston North End
Football League Second Division
Champions ? 1999?2000
With Everton
FA Cup runners-up: 2009
and thats it
Martin O'Neill
Managerial
Wycombe Wanderers
Football Conference (1): 1992?93
FA Trophy (2): 1990-91, 1992-93
Football League Third Division Play?Offs (1): 1993-94
Leicester City
Football League First Division Play-offs (1): 1995?96
League Cup (2): 1996-97, 1999-2000
Celtic
Scottish Premier League (3): 2000?01, 2001?02, 2003?04
Scottish Cup (3): 2000-01, 2003-04, 2004-05
Scottish League Cup (1): 2000?01
bend those stats
David Moyes
Managerial
With Preston North End
Football League Second Division
Champions ? 1999?2000
With Everton
FA Cup runners-up: 2009
and thats it
Martin O'Neill
Managerial
Wycombe Wanderers
Football Conference (1): 1992?93
FA Trophy (2): 1990-91, 1992-93
Football League Third Division Play?Offs (1): 1993-94
Leicester City
Football League First Division Play-offs (1): 1995?96
League Cup (2): 1996-97, 1999-2000
Celtic
Scottish Premier League (3): 2000?01, 2001?02, 2003?04
Scottish Cup (3): 2000-01, 2003-04, 2004-05
Scottish League Cup (1): 2000?01
bend those stats
Mark Hughes? MARK HUGHES? Why? What has he done?
By the way, just so you have the quote, Alex Ferguson said "... what he?s done at Everton has been quite miraculous.?
By the way, just so you have the quote, Alex Ferguson said "... what he?s done at Everton has been quite miraculous.?
As for Redknapp, he bankrupted Portsmouth and Southampton and set West Ham on their way to ruin too. Irrespective of the financial mess he tends to create, his best league position before joining Spurs was 8th.
At Spurs he has spent around £120 million. If his side weren't playing nice football with the quality they've got you'd be worried.
The media's love affair with him (which inevitably rubs off on fans) is because he gives them a good quote.
Poor, reckless manager, in my opinion.
At Spurs he has spent around £120 million. If his side weren't playing nice football with the quality they've got you'd be worried.
The media's love affair with him (which inevitably rubs off on fans) is because he gives them a good quote.
Poor, reckless manager, in my opinion.
Gavin, bit generous to include O'Neill's Celtic stats. It's like praising your mum for being in the top 2 parents you've ever had.
Paul I had to add the scottish pub league stats as they appear on his CV, if Moyes had spent time up the road and achieved stuff but left out of a comparison there would be murder, he hasn't. Technically he has won nothing of merit.
Martin O Neill has won things with Celtic, Wycombe and Leicester, great. The only stat Everton fans should care about though is what he's done in the premier league as Everton don't play in the conference or the SPL. In this respect his track record is worse than Moyes! He had what every Eveerton fan is crying out for Moyes to have, a load of money to throw at a sleeping giant and try and break into the top 4. Did he do it? No, in fact he could only get ahead of Moyes once. Why would it be any different if he was at Everton where he wouldn't be give any money. He built his 'success' at Villa on big purchases like Ashley Young, Petrov, Milner, Downing, Cuellar and Heskey. All he did at Aston Villa was prove that with money he wasn't as good as Moyes wihtout money over a consistent number of seasons.
James Martin, you nailed the argument. Which is also supported by the fact, that his peers are yet to recognise O' Neils 'superior' achievements. Yet Moyes is on par with Alex Ferguson in number of LMA's won.
Winning a title is one thing, being recognised by the entire managerial community as the best 3 times, speaks for itself. Unless of course, you believe that you know more than the football managers themselves. And all from the safety of your own armchair....
Winning a title is one thing, being recognised by the entire managerial community as the best 3 times, speaks for itself. Unless of course, you believe that you know more than the football managers themselves. And all from the safety of your own armchair....
Paul Foster, look up the record of Paul Le Guen, a possible future French coach. Compare it to that of David Moyes and then check how Le Guen did at Rangers. Check out the decent coaches who have managed Rangers or Celtic and look at how many have failed. Neil Lennon has had one of the toughest jobs in football. Don't disparage Martin O'Neill's time at Celtic because he did a magnificent job in one of the toughest environments in football.
David Moyes doesn't know what pressure is. Martin O'Neill does and has succeeded under it.
David Moyes doesn't know what pressure is. Martin O'Neill does and has succeeded under it.
Dan @ 925,
Past LMA manager of the year award winners include Joe Kinnear, George Burley, Peter Reid, Frank Clark and Danny Wilson.
Would you rate all those names above people like O'Neill, Ancelotti or even Benitez who have won a number of trophies over their careers in the premier league and elsewhere, even though they never won an LMA award?
I don't want to discredit Moyes' achievements (and there are many) but my personal impression - and it's just my view - is that the LMA award tends to go to someone whose team have won more than one trophy in a season or else a "didn't the plucky underdog sort do well", like many of the former winners I mentioned above.
Past LMA manager of the year award winners include Joe Kinnear, George Burley, Peter Reid, Frank Clark and Danny Wilson.
Would you rate all those names above people like O'Neill, Ancelotti or even Benitez who have won a number of trophies over their careers in the premier league and elsewhere, even though they never won an LMA award?
I don't want to discredit Moyes' achievements (and there are many) but my personal impression - and it's just my view - is that the LMA award tends to go to someone whose team have won more than one trophy in a season or else a "didn't the plucky underdog sort do well", like many of the former winners I mentioned above.
Dan I'll bet Leicester supporters got a little more enjoyment from their league cup wins than Evertonians got over Moyes's LMA's.
An odd logic Dan claiming managers know more than the armchair fan because of some LMAs especially given the list since your post, what have those LMAs brought to the paying fans? Has an LMA ever been paraded at the end of a season? Has an LMA ever been awarded after a final at Wembley? Has an LMA ever given the need for an open topped bus tour of the city for the fans to celebrate?
Ten years, one final and one failure to lift the cup
Ten years, one final and one failure to lift the cup
Noel, of course not. Winning it once, just meant you had one good season where you deserved it. When you look at the list of winners, I don't think there would be many who would disagree with it.
Ancelotti didn't get one, as he had infinite resources to build his squad. The LMA award is based on how the other managers perceive you, based on the resources you have available. Is Mancini going to be the best manager if he wins the league, given how much he has had to spend? In my eyes, certainly not. He won't get the LMA this season, thats for sure. If Pardew gets Newcastle into Europe, he is odds on to get it. And rightly so in my view. If you don't recognise 'points per pound spent', then thats your own opinion.
Andy, put it this way. Would you prefer Moyes had two Mickey Mouse trophy wins that the top sides don't give a shite about, and be placed 11th in the Championship today, than where we are now? Thought not....
Ancelotti didn't get one, as he had infinite resources to build his squad. The LMA award is based on how the other managers perceive you, based on the resources you have available. Is Mancini going to be the best manager if he wins the league, given how much he has had to spend? In my eyes, certainly not. He won't get the LMA this season, thats for sure. If Pardew gets Newcastle into Europe, he is odds on to get it. And rightly so in my view. If you don't recognise 'points per pound spent', then thats your own opinion.
Andy, put it this way. Would you prefer Moyes had two Mickey Mouse trophy wins that the top sides don't give a shite about, and be placed 11th in the Championship today, than where we are now? Thought not....
Martin O`neill won his two league cups in a different world to the one we now inhabit, The last one was at the turn of the century FFS.
Sheiks bought private jets and fast cars back then, not football teams, Man United and Liverpool were`nt global and most of us didnt even know what an oligarch was. The playing field was an awful lot more even.
If Martin O'neill was capable of repeating these achievements today, he would have done by now. He blew Learners fortune then screamed the house down and fucked off when it was gone.
He may have managed the "incredible" by winning footballs poorest two horse race with world class players like Larson, but he was, is and always will be, a crash bang wallop merchant.
Sheiks bought private jets and fast cars back then, not football teams, Man United and Liverpool were`nt global and most of us didnt even know what an oligarch was. The playing field was an awful lot more even.
If Martin O'neill was capable of repeating these achievements today, he would have done by now. He blew Learners fortune then screamed the house down and fucked off when it was gone.
He may have managed the "incredible" by winning footballs poorest two horse race with world class players like Larson, but he was, is and always will be, a crash bang wallop merchant.
This argument is a load of hypothetical bullshit. All that matters is how the manager and team performs together. If you think that nobody could possibly do a better job in the world than the man you currently have, then I'd say you are probably wrong...
Mcleish and Maclaren both won the league cup, Mclaren has won league titles abroad as well. Doesn't mean that I would want either of them at Everton. Mclaren doomed boro and Mcleish relegated Birmingham and is sending Villa in the same direction. Managers can get lucky and win trophies (Dalglish is living proof). Moyes has not got to enough finals and has not done as well as we expect him to in the cups, no one denies that and that is one of his failings as a manager. He was unlucky however that after putting out Liverpool Villa and Man U in one cup run instead of drawing Cardiff in the final he got Chelsea in their prime, and we had half our team out. A different day, a few cruciates that didn't break, and we could have won the FA Cup. McFaddens shot goes in off the post and we might have got through that league cup semi too. If Fiorentina took penalties like Cardiff we may well have gone a lot further in the Europa league. Moyes hasn't won trophies but you sometimes need luck to win them and Moyes hasn't had any at the crucial moments of his Everton career in the way that Benitez, Dalglish, Mcleish and others all have.
7 out of 9 says quite comprehensively, yes he is! Only two managers have achieved more top eight finishes than Moyes in that time. Just because no other manager has been able to hold down a job for ten years(bar Wenger and SAF) is hardly a reason to complain about Moyes. He has been succesful without winning a trophy so far. Also just take a look at the youth set up. How many others are better equipped for the next five-ten years?
Don't think you can say O'Neill won those League Cup trophies in a different world. Could argue that it was harder to win the League Cup around 2000 as big teams took the competition a bit more seriously back then than they do now. Still had to beat Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool.... Chelsea and Liverpool had better teams back then as well and Arsenal weren't playing kids in it back then.
To say he should have won it by now is a bit unfair; he was at Celtic from 2000-05, spent about 3 years at Aston Villa, didn't win in then, but only had 3 goes compared to Moyes's 10 goes.
I say Sunderland will win a trophy under O'Neill before Moyes does at Everton.
To say he should have won it by now is a bit unfair; he was at Celtic from 2000-05, spent about 3 years at Aston Villa, didn't win in then, but only had 3 goes compared to Moyes's 10 goes.
I say Sunderland will win a trophy under O'Neill before Moyes does at Everton.
Dave the last time Moyes won anything was the turn of the century too
My Mum's a better manager than Mancini.
AVB is unproven, Wenger is a complicated one (he took a winning team that had stopped winning, made them win again, then failed to rebuild them into a winning team despite a strong financial position) and Jol, O'Neill and Hughes have consistently failed to beat Moyes over the course of a Premiership season.
The only two on your list with a clear and obvious claim are Ferguson and Redknapp.
AVB is unproven, Wenger is a complicated one (he took a winning team that had stopped winning, made them win again, then failed to rebuild them into a winning team despite a strong financial position) and Jol, O'Neill and Hughes have consistently failed to beat Moyes over the course of a Premiership season.
The only two on your list with a clear and obvious claim are Ferguson and Redknapp.
Gavin, if you are only going to measure Everton managers on the trophy cabinet, then you are going to be disappointed for a long time. If a cup win this season makes you feel good about Moyes, then so be it. It honestly won't make me believe he is a 'better' manager by winning a string of 6 games for a cup. I value him as a manager, for the way he constantly evolves the squad, on a comparative pittance in comparison to the clubs around him. His contribution to Everton since he arrived has without doubt, kept us not only in the top flight, but also given us some good seasons and a good feeling around the place, compared to the dark days of before. Of all the so called 'better' managers that are quoted above, how many of them have CONSISTENTLY challenged for europe or won silverware? None of them. And does that make them bad managers? No. You have to look at the playing field. And when you are up against clubs spending ten times more than you season in season out, some sort of reality check has to set in. Ideally, people should factor this into your expectations. But instead we hear shite like 'fourth most successful team ever', like that somehow pays the salaries for the players. It means fuck all in todays modern game.
"He has been succesful without winning a trophy so far."
To some of us, that is an oxymoron.
I would like to know how long Moyes supporters are willing to wait for actual success before they change their tune.
To some of us, that is an oxymoron.
I would like to know how long Moyes supporters are willing to wait for actual success before they change their tune.
"I also wonder if he would do as good a job as Lambert is doing at Norwich, on a tight budget like ours and getting them playing good football like they are doing now with a load of Championship players. I don't think so. "
Fuck me, like you mean in 2004 taking a bunch of misfists and championship players to the Champions league? Lets see Lambert do that, before we start brandishing our appendages.
Fuck me, like you mean in 2004 taking a bunch of misfists and championship players to the Champions league? Lets see Lambert do that, before we start brandishing our appendages.
Phil, the quote you use contradicts your own point. We didn't play good football in 2004-05. Effective, yes. Good football. Hardly. I'm not taking away from that achievement as it was an amazing season, but we qualified for the Champions League with a negative goal difference, a lower points total than any other 4th place finish since then, and losing 13 games. None of those facts can correlate with a team playing good football.
"Jol, O'Neill and Hughes have consistently failed to beat Moyes over the course of a Premiership season"
I think you are doing Jol a disservice there Martin. He finished in 5th, above Moyes' Everton, in his two full seasons in charge at Spurs. He was then ditched early in the season - harshly in my opinion - for Juande Ramos. The early signs are that he could do well at Fulham too, playing decent football to boot.
If for whatever reason, Moyes were to leave in the summer, I wouldn't mind seeing Jol at Everton.
(Note: that doesn't mean I want rid of Moyes. And I don't)
I think you are doing Jol a disservice there Martin. He finished in 5th, above Moyes' Everton, in his two full seasons in charge at Spurs. He was then ditched early in the season - harshly in my opinion - for Juande Ramos. The early signs are that he could do well at Fulham too, playing decent football to boot.
If for whatever reason, Moyes were to leave in the summer, I wouldn't mind seeing Jol at Everton.
(Note: that doesn't mean I want rid of Moyes. And I don't)
Roman, i see what you're saying but it's an argument that always really annoys me.
I'm not saying we played scintillating football because clearly we didn't but what has the goal difference got to do with it? We didn't have a minus goal difference after 36 games when we sealed 4th, we got a pasting against arsenal and lost to bolton when we had nothing to play for.
What has the points total got to do with anything? The point is to finish above the teams in the league in that season - the season after there are different teams and the existing teams strengthen/weaken so you're not comparing like for like.
At least if losing 13 games in a season disqualifies you from having played good football we should hear no more about Martinez, Rodgers, Lambert, Jol etc after this season as they all look like doing that.
I'm not saying we played scintillating football because clearly we didn't but what has the goal difference got to do with it? We didn't have a minus goal difference after 36 games when we sealed 4th, we got a pasting against arsenal and lost to bolton when we had nothing to play for.
What has the points total got to do with anything? The point is to finish above the teams in the league in that season - the season after there are different teams and the existing teams strengthen/weaken so you're not comparing like for like.
At least if losing 13 games in a season disqualifies you from having played good football we should hear no more about Martinez, Rodgers, Lambert, Jol etc after this season as they all look like doing that.
Roman I agree ( pretty much ) with all you say. But if the PL Paradox truely applies, all except MU City and Chelsea are playing for 4th, the odd cup win and not to be relegated.
Therefore all opinions Re. Moyes are at best 50-50 . Any successor has a 50-50 chance of being better or worse and I think that is their point why bother, It's all bollocks by the way, sometimes change is needed for changes sake.
The Premieir League Paradox. Unless you have the money to win the League and compete in the CL, you will never get the prize money to allow you to start competing.
Therefore all opinions Re. Moyes are at best 50-50 . Any successor has a 50-50 chance of being better or worse and I think that is their point why bother, It's all bollocks by the way, sometimes change is needed for changes sake.
The Premieir League Paradox. Unless you have the money to win the League and compete in the CL, you will never get the prize money to allow you to start competing.
Cheers, Jimmy. The negative points total has a lot to do with it. Some say that the game against Arsenal that year is why we had a negative goal difference, but we were in 4th position with a very low for and against. We were winning games 1-0 a lot, and they were very hard to watch at times. The points total also has a bit of relevance, in that it was a year when the rest of the league (Liverpool especially) in general had a pretty shit season.
This is not to mention that Moyes had an inverted version of his typical season that year. in that we only won a handful of games in the second half of the season, but lost a shit load.
This is not to mention that Moyes had an inverted version of his typical season that year. in that we only won a handful of games in the second half of the season, but lost a shit load.
if I'm not mistaken, Moyes and O'Neill were often in battle to be best of the rest and perhaps nick a CL place in recent years (Everton and Villa). But with far less transfer money and with 30% lower wage bill Davey usually came out on top.
And when Money got scarce, O'Neill threw his toys out of the pram and walked away. When we were told we had to sell to er not buy, Moyes had a face like a slapped arse but got on with it. And too many on here claimed he was happy cos he was on gretat money. Jesuswept. Moyes coulda got paid elswhere in no time.
And Mark Hughes? good grief. I'm wasting time here,
And when Money got scarce, O'Neill threw his toys out of the pram and walked away. When we were told we had to sell to er not buy, Moyes had a face like a slapped arse but got on with it. And too many on here claimed he was happy cos he was on gretat money. Jesuswept. Moyes coulda got paid elswhere in no time.
And Mark Hughes? good grief. I'm wasting time here,
To be fair to Dalglish, he's won 4 league titles with two clubs. He created a superb 1997-8 team, one of the best I can remember, and how the Hell he won the 1986 Double I'll never know.
You sometimes hear the question: which was the best Double-winning team? Liverpool weren't even the best team in 1986. But Dalglish managed to get them the League, and to come from behind after taking a beating for an hour in the Cup Final.
Maybe you want to distinguish between the Kenny of the 80s and early 90s and now, perhaps. But fair dos, he's proven himself a top manager. More than some of those being mentioned in this piece.
You sometimes hear the question: which was the best Double-winning team? Liverpool weren't even the best team in 1986. But Dalglish managed to get them the League, and to come from behind after taking a beating for an hour in the Cup Final.
Maybe you want to distinguish between the Kenny of the 80s and early 90s and now, perhaps. But fair dos, he's proven himself a top manager. More than some of those being mentioned in this piece.
David Moyes has his detractors but over 10 years at Everton he has built a team that can now score at least a goal a game. He has this team playing to its strengths and we have some very good defenders including defensive midfielders and defensive forwards. It was great to see Timmy clearing the goal line in that draw with Norwich???
Moyes is a master tactician, bringing on the likes of Distin and Neville as super subs... the Arsenal and Wigan games spring to mind. I'm sure Spurs and Chelsea will have Davey top of their respective shopping lists come the summer. He may even go to Old Trafford as assistant for a year or two before assuming control.
Moyes is a master tactician, bringing on the likes of Distin and Neville as super subs... the Arsenal and Wigan games spring to mind. I'm sure Spurs and Chelsea will have Davey top of their respective shopping lists come the summer. He may even go to Old Trafford as assistant for a year or two before assuming control.
Some said that Dalglish was the manager that finished Liverpools period of domination by using the clubs capital (in terms of players), developing none and buying poorly as in David Speedy. It kept them at the top but they were unravelling fast when he walked. At Celtic and Newcastle he did very badly.
Whose the best guitarist, Jimi Hendrix or Jose Feliciano? This is a ridiculous thread which is just based on subjective opinion and has no empirical evidence on which to base an argument. Moyes has had money to spend, a lot more than Lambert, Pulis and Rodgers who, in my OPINION are doing a better job. He did get us to a cup final, where he played a right back who was found wanting once again and had to be subbed. The guy who replaced him played very well but was not given a contract after that match and we've been stuck with a Sunday league player ever since. Yes, we did finish 4th, with an inferior goal difference and, suffered the heaviest defeat in my lifetime and i've been watching the blues since 1968. So there are pro's and con's, but I personally think the latter outweigh the good points and I'd be happy to see us bring in someone with ambition for our club, not for himself
"This is a ridiculous thread which is just based on subjective opinion and has no empirical evidence on which to base an argument"
If it's so ridiculous, then why did you feel the need to follow up that statement with your own opinion Mick?
If it's so ridiculous, then why did you feel the need to follow up that statement with your own opinion Mick?
Dan, @936, you seem to imply that Leicester somehow swapped their premier status for two league cups. Do you think the absence of any trophy is what keeps Everton in the premier league?
Andy, you know exactly what I meant. Would you be happier that Everton had won 2 trophies during Moyes tenure, but be sitting mid way in the championship now?
You were suggesting that Leicester fans are happier with 2 cup wins, instead of the LMA's that Moyes has achieved, which were earned by keeping Everton competitive in the PL with limited finances.
But I agree, it is one of those endless debates like 'who is the best ever centre forward'. Its about personal taste at the end of the day, and whatever your perception of 'success' is.
You were suggesting that Leicester fans are happier with 2 cup wins, instead of the LMA's that Moyes has achieved, which were earned by keeping Everton competitive in the PL with limited finances.
But I agree, it is one of those endless debates like 'who is the best ever centre forward'. Its about personal taste at the end of the day, and whatever your perception of 'success' is.
James
"Mcleish and Maclaren both won the league cup, Mclaren has won league titles abroad as well. Doesn't mean that I would want either of them at Everton. Mclaren doomed boro and Mcleish relegated Birmingham and is sending Villa in the same direction"
I'd agree that Mcleish is shite but he's still got more trophies under his belt than Moyes.
I can't see how Mclaren doomed Boro though? They were an established PL side and were in the Uefa cup final when he left. Now they are a Championship play off side. How did he doom them.
Also, taking on the giants of Dutch football and beating them with FC Twente in a highly technical, tactically astute league shouldn't be underestimated.
"Mcleish and Maclaren both won the league cup, Mclaren has won league titles abroad as well. Doesn't mean that I would want either of them at Everton. Mclaren doomed boro and Mcleish relegated Birmingham and is sending Villa in the same direction"
I'd agree that Mcleish is shite but he's still got more trophies under his belt than Moyes.
I can't see how Mclaren doomed Boro though? They were an established PL side and were in the Uefa cup final when he left. Now they are a Championship play off side. How did he doom them.
Also, taking on the giants of Dutch football and beating them with FC Twente in a highly technical, tactically astute league shouldn't be underestimated.
Mike 949
"Wenger is a complicated one (he took a winning team that had stopped winning, made them win again, then failed to rebuild them into a winning team despite a strong financial position)"
"The only two on your list with a clear and obvious claim are Ferguson and Redknapp."
Please tell me your not suggesting the man who revolutionised the PL and built a side that went a whole season unbeaten playing the best football the PL has ever seen isn't a better manager than David Moyes?
"Wenger is a complicated one (he took a winning team that had stopped winning, made them win again, then failed to rebuild them into a winning team despite a strong financial position)"
"The only two on your list with a clear and obvious claim are Ferguson and Redknapp."
Please tell me your not suggesting the man who revolutionised the PL and built a side that went a whole season unbeaten playing the best football the PL has ever seen isn't a better manager than David Moyes?
Norwich, current goal difference -6, ten defeats so far with 11 games left. But we wish Moyes was as good as Lambert...?
No Stephen I'm not, but two of your three points are highly subjective, and Arsenal have gone from a position of challenging for trophies to a position of not, under his regime. Hence the word 'complicated'. I do get quite frustrated having to say everything twice.
Look at it this way, what if Moyes and Wenger had swapped positions, and Wenger had to shop for Cahill's and Bent's whilst Moyes got to spend millions on Henry's and Overmarses (is that the correct plural?) how would they have got on? I'm not saying I know, but don't go pretending you do either. People say Wenger develops his own players, but what he actually does is poach teenagers or buy them for big fees. He's been at Arsenal for 16 years, where they are now is down to him, and many of their fans are unhappy. They won more consistently under George Graham. And why have they not produced half an England team the way Man United have done twice under Ferguson if Wenger is such a great developer of youth? Wenger has many strengths, but is far from beyond criticism.
No Stephen I'm not, but two of your three points are highly subjective, and Arsenal have gone from a position of challenging for trophies to a position of not, under his regime. Hence the word 'complicated'. I do get quite frustrated having to say everything twice.
Look at it this way, what if Moyes and Wenger had swapped positions, and Wenger had to shop for Cahill's and Bent's whilst Moyes got to spend millions on Henry's and Overmarses (is that the correct plural?) how would they have got on? I'm not saying I know, but don't go pretending you do either. People say Wenger develops his own players, but what he actually does is poach teenagers or buy them for big fees. He's been at Arsenal for 16 years, where they are now is down to him, and many of their fans are unhappy. They won more consistently under George Graham. And why have they not produced half an England team the way Man United have done twice under Ferguson if Wenger is such a great developer of youth? Wenger has many strengths, but is far from beyond criticism.
Moyes is a better manager than all on that list except Ferguson, with O'Neill and Redknapp in contention.
Mancini, AVB have both always had money and I have always had my doubts about Wenger. He inherited Seaman, Adams, Cole and Bergkamp. Campbell was the most obvious free in the world and Henry, Vieira and Kolo Toure were all bought as a winger and centre back and a centre forward respectively. It was Pat Rice that moved them into their recognised positions. Since he lost Campbell and Vieira Arsenal haven't looked like winning a trophy!
Mancini, AVB have both always had money and I have always had my doubts about Wenger. He inherited Seaman, Adams, Cole and Bergkamp. Campbell was the most obvious free in the world and Henry, Vieira and Kolo Toure were all bought as a winger and centre back and a centre forward respectively. It was Pat Rice that moved them into their recognised positions. Since he lost Campbell and Vieira Arsenal haven't looked like winning a trophy!
I think Harry Rednapp finished 5th one season with West Ham so I think he is a good manager.
Picking up on an earlier point, I don't think the League Cup is a Mickey Mouse Cup and wish Everton had won it as it is the only domestic honour Everton have not won.
Picking up on an earlier point, I don't think the League Cup is a Mickey Mouse Cup and wish Everton had won it as it is the only domestic honour Everton have not won.
Mike,
I agree he is far from critcism. But to try and compare him to Moyes is soft IMO.
The man is the only other who has a negative net spend but has still challenged for trophies, admittedly with a much bigger wage bill.
I don't think anybody other than Ferguson and maybe Mourinho can hold a candle to Wenger's achievements.
I agree he is far from critcism. But to try and compare him to Moyes is soft IMO.
The man is the only other who has a negative net spend but has still challenged for trophies, admittedly with a much bigger wage bill.
I don't think anybody other than Ferguson and maybe Mourinho can hold a candle to Wenger's achievements.
I think you were definitely right about six years ago Stephen, but surely you don't deny Arsenal have gone backwards since? Think of it as managers having 'form' and he's way off his.
I'd also add that the negative spend seems to be his own choice, rather than imposed on him.
Having said that, I don't deny there's some merit in lining up trophies, I just think there's a lot more to it as well.
I'd also add that the negative spend seems to be his own choice, rather than imposed on him.
Having said that, I don't deny there's some merit in lining up trophies, I just think there's a lot more to it as well.
Having watched and enjoyed Stevenige v Spurs.......................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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470 Posted 05/03/2012 at 15:00:10
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