Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
What is most important, Cup or League?
49 Comments: After today's result against Tottenham I have a question as to what is more important.
We have a quarter final coming up in the F.A. Cup and with a bit of luck, hard work and determination we can go all the way and win it.
On the other hand we have climbed the table and are now on similar points with Sunderland who are at 8th and us who are at 9th.
We are 2 points behind Liverpool who seem to be struggling scoring enough goals.
We have 11 games left to play and if we beat the "red shites" then we can go as high as 5th or 6th if we keep this unbeaten run.
Now, the question I have is what is more important?
The money in the league is huge along with that Europa League place, but is it really possible to get into Europe through the League for us?
I would say no, I think it will be a struggle only because we keep hitting walls with lower teams, such as Blackburn, Wigan and lastly QPR.
They are examples of how we are not quite where we want to be yet, at least in the league.
In the cup, it is totally different. We come up against above average teams, which we tend to beat.
David Moyes has said earlier this season that he does not think that the cup should be our number.1 priority.
That to me is really strange, given our below par performances against teams lower than us.
Surely Moyes must have changed his mind by now? He has to be able to see what every Evertonian can see, the cup is our most realistic chance of getting back into Europe!
What do you think is most important?
Is it the cup like I think or is it the league?
Jimmy Sorheim, Posted 10/03/2012 at 21:30:11
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Agreed. A cup win would do more to get us noticed by any would-be buyers. No reason we can't do both though. Following our Cup tie with Sunderland and then a visit from Arsenal, we have a run-in of some very winnable games.
March
Swansea (A)
West Brom (H)
April
Norwich (A)
Sunderland (H)
Stoke (A)
Man U (A)
Fulham (H)
May
Wolves (A)
Newcastle (H)
The only potential banana skin I see is Swansea away and of course we'll never win at OT. That leaves 21 very winnable points up for grabs that should take us over the 60-point mark if we can bag them all. Good enough for 7th or 8th this season? Seems a tall order but that has to be the goal doesn't it? NSNO.
March
Swansea (A)
West Brom (H)
April
Norwich (A)
Sunderland (H)
Stoke (A)
Man U (A)
Fulham (H)
May
Wolves (A)
Newcastle (H)
The only potential banana skin I see is Swansea away and of course we'll never win at OT. That leaves 21 very winnable points up for grabs that should take us over the 60-point mark if we can bag them all. Good enough for 7th or 8th this season? Seems a tall order but that has to be the goal doesn't it? NSNO.
Might sound crazy, but I think the squad is at the point now where we could realistically aim to win the cup as well as finish the league on a high note.
With three loanees ranging from brilliant to very capable, and many of our injured players coming back, there's no reason why 11 league games plus three cup games is too much.
We've actually got depth in almost every position except left back, and most players are playing in their correct position. The only thing left to do is motivate them properly.
On the Europa league, what is the finance like? I know it is a pittance in comparison to the Champions League, but is it enough for say, a player's salary?
With three loanees ranging from brilliant to very capable, and many of our injured players coming back, there's no reason why 11 league games plus three cup games is too much.
We've actually got depth in almost every position except left back, and most players are playing in their correct position. The only thing left to do is motivate them properly.
On the Europa league, what is the finance like? I know it is a pittance in comparison to the Champions League, but is it enough for say, a player's salary?
You don't get a choice, you go for both. But I'd prefer to finish above the shite than anything else, starting with a win at their hole.
The cup for me and I would be swapping things around for the derby game and giving some people a rest
Cup is most important at the moment. The chance to win a trophy is by far the bigger goal. I would rest Fellaini on Tuesday, he's a booking away from a suspension, I could imagine that the red scum would try to get him booked or sent off. Plus Drenthe is also a potential hothead who could get caught in the emotion of the derby and be sent off. We need them both avaliable for Sunderland match.
The more games you play and win, the more momentum you get. The best teams thrive at this time of year, with the games coming thick and fast. I hope we have the addition of Europe this time next year.
As for a cup or finishing above Liverpool it has to be the cup, otherwise we are a 2nd rate club obsessed with our more successful neighbours. We are a big club in our own right and we need to be aiming to win trophies.
As for a cup or finishing above Liverpool it has to be the cup, otherwise we are a 2nd rate club obsessed with our more successful neighbours. We are a big club in our own right and we need to be aiming to win trophies.
Assuming that Davy actually knows his best 11. The next game you put out your best avaliable 11, same for the one after that, your best avaliable 11. Then you either win lose or draw and let the results fall where they will.
On past history we will manage to get some sort of shite worked on us in the Derby. It's been that way since 1969 when they sold their red shankly souls to the devil.
RS: you get exactly what it says on the tin.
ONE GAME AT A TIME
On past history we will manage to get some sort of shite worked on us in the Derby. It's been that way since 1969 when they sold their red shankly souls to the devil.
RS: you get exactly what it says on the tin.
ONE GAME AT A TIME
Sorry John, but I cant believe any Evertonian would want to field a weakened or radically changed side against the RS.....to lose our momentum now is just crazy....put Pienaar in for Coleman and we have a good chance of going into the Cup game with our heads high.
There is no let up in any game this wk , moyes won't prioritize the cup and neither he should , the geordies are 7points ahead of us and catchable with their tough run in , do I think we will finish above the red shite , probably not . 7th however could get europa league which would again be remarkable .
Tuesday night could really give us something to shout about , dissppointed about the fellaini situation but he needs to play , massive wk
Tuesday night could really give us something to shout about , dissppointed about the fellaini situation but he needs to play , massive wk
I agree with John Crawley, the cup has to be the priority, a trip to wembley beckons!
No need to play a weakened team at the RS though, as his, albeit limited 1st team squad, is nearly back to full compliment. So he could rotate a few players and give the likes of Rodwell and Jagielka some game time.
Can anyone tell me if Pienaar is cup tied for all future rounds or just this one?
No need to play a weakened team at the RS though, as his, albeit limited 1st team squad, is nearly back to full compliment. So he could rotate a few players and give the likes of Rodwell and Jagielka some game time.
Can anyone tell me if Pienaar is cup tied for all future rounds or just this one?
There is no let up in any game this wk , moyes won't prioritize the cup and neither he should , the geordies are 7points ahead of us and catchable with their tough run in , do I think we will finish above the red shite , probably not . 7th however could get europa league which would again be remarkable .
Tuesday night could really give us something to shout about , dissppointed about the fellaini situation but he needs to play , massive wk
Tuesday night could really give us something to shout about , dissppointed about the fellaini situation but he needs to play , massive wk
You can almost certainly bet that Fellaini will get booked on Tuesday and if he does is he suspended then? I'm sorry but a trip to Wembley is far more important than Tuesday by a country mile. Memories of Wembley last forever; finishing sixth above them is nothing to celebrate even if it would be nice, all those t-shirts we put out for finishing above them last time were cringeworthy and fuelled the 'small club, bitter' shouts.
If someone put Tuesday's derby game and Saturday's Cup game on the table and said we could only win one, which one would I take?
Saturday. All day long.
Saturday. All day long.
Mike Green, spot on. It's all about Saturday for me. I would even consider resting certain key players.
We can win both. No questions. We are good enough and so should our expectations be. Winning the FA Cup has to rate high for the fans, but for the manager it should be one game at a time.
Eh? What a daft question. The next game is the derby. We have to go and compete. There is a sense of injustice hanging around from the first game, we are only 2 points behind. Plenty of motivation to go there and have a go.
A good performance and result will keep the momentum going.
The cup game will take care of itself. Let's go to Anfield and add to Dogleash's worries.
A good performance and result will keep the momentum going.
The cup game will take care of itself. Let's go to Anfield and add to Dogleash's worries.
No comparison, it has to be the cup. Best football knock-out competition in the world. Always was, always will be. And the first major honour that we will have won for 17 long years. Something to put a long-awaited smile on our faces.
I'd like to see them put out a full strength side out Tuesday and give us our pride back by beating Liverpool. That is the best preparation for the Sunderland game. One game at a time and top effort from every one.
Tony, I don't think the team has to necessarily be a weakened team but I do think we should rotate some players. At the end of the day, it's a league game against Liverpool and you get no more from it than 3 points. So, for example, I would be bringing in Hibbert, Jagielka, Rodwell, Pienaar, Straq from the team that started against Tottenham.
What's more important; water or oxygen? Or my heart or brain? It's not like we've got a huge squad that can be rotated. Bit of a non topic this really.
The cup. We've got no chance of winning the league.
Ten years of no silverware with Moyes. It has to be the cup surely. If we got into Europe through the league then the money would dissapear anyway. They can't take the cup away.
The manager and players should go all out and try and win every game ? you can't just go for one or the other ? but a hot May day at Wembley would do me.
One game at a time should be the priority, always should.
I for one just hope we go out and try to win every game that we have left this season. We will lose some, but I hope those that we do are the less significant ones.
Why oh why do we start so badly - why is Moyes so moody in the last 4 months of the calendar year?
We have nothing to lose by going for it in every game between now and May....
Why oh why do we start so badly - why is Moyes so moody in the last 4 months of the calendar year?
We have nothing to lose by going for it in every game between now and May....
I don't care whether its three or ten points or even zero points. At this moment in time such things are academic and for discussion among statisticians. Like a raging bull my focus is on the red shirts and how good it would be to grind to grind Dogleash and Sewerage and their yankee franchisees into the dirt of their own midden.
That is without a doubt my most fervent wish.
That is without a doubt my most fervent wish.
Will Moyes give it his all for winning the cup, or will he do as he said earlier in the season????
I seem to remember him saying that the league is the most important, and that he will not field all his first team players during the cup if that clashes with the league, as he felt there is too much money to miss in league places.
Go back and check it yourselves if you do not take my word for it!!!!!!!!
I agree with most who say that at this stage the cup is the biggest carrot, but I fear that Moyes will field ploayers such as Mucha, Jagielka, Gueye, Coleman and Straqualursi.
I am having a bad feeling about the Sunderland game, I feel the players and the fans taking it too lightly, like we are already in Wembley again.
To me that would be a HUGE MISTAKE, we still has to play the game, and I am not convinced we are certain of going trough
I seem to remember him saying that the league is the most important, and that he will not field all his first team players during the cup if that clashes with the league, as he felt there is too much money to miss in league places.
Go back and check it yourselves if you do not take my word for it!!!!!!!!
I agree with most who say that at this stage the cup is the biggest carrot, but I fear that Moyes will field ploayers such as Mucha, Jagielka, Gueye, Coleman and Straqualursi.
I am having a bad feeling about the Sunderland game, I feel the players and the fans taking it too lightly, like we are already in Wembley again.
To me that would be a HUGE MISTAKE, we still has to play the game, and I am not convinced we are certain of going trough
Jimmy 'you seem to remember' but then you ask us to 'go back and check it yourselves'.
Please help me what am I suppose to check . You can't just throw a quote out there without backing it up.
Or might you be imagining things / making shit up? Happy to be proved wrong
Please help me what am I suppose to check . You can't just throw a quote out there without backing it up.
Or might you be imagining things / making shit up? Happy to be proved wrong
"I am having a bad feeling about the Sunderland game, I feel the players and the fans taking it too lightly, like we are already in Wembley again."
Jimmy, stay off the ganja. Who where and when has been taking the cup match too lightly. FFS what is it with you and all this negative shit? Is it really boring in Norway? Why you whining every week?
Jimmy, stay off the ganja. Who where and when has been taking the cup match too lightly. FFS what is it with you and all this negative shit? Is it really boring in Norway? Why you whining every week?
I can't imagine HK saying, 'Okay, we've got the league, the FA Cup and the Cup-winners' Cup... which one get priority?' And with a smaller pool of players, too.
Talk as much as you like about how much players earn - they love to play big games and there isn't one at Finch Farm who doesn't want to be on the team sheet for Tuesday. The experienced players will be relishing it and the newbies will be dreaming of it. Send the best team we have out to do battle. This is the Derby.
David Moyes wants both - but if he had to choose, it would be the cup. It is the one thing that he lacks from his CV from 10 years at GP
Adam (898) Why oh why do we start so badly - why is Moyes so moody in the last 4 months of the calendar year?
The easy answer is that the Board don't stump up any cash during the summer months to bolster his squad and then he has to play catch-up in the last four months of the season once he's signed a few loanees in January.
The easy answer is that the Board don't stump up any cash during the summer months to bolster his squad and then he has to play catch-up in the last four months of the season once he's signed a few loanees in January.
I've got to admit after watching Derby games for years now I've come to the conclusion that we set too much store in them. Unfortunately it really is like our whole season revolves around these games. The cup is miles more important than the league. We've won nothing for far too long. At the end of the day it is still just three points and given the record of sendings off, injuries etc I would definitely rest some key players for the cup game.
The Cup, the cup and again the fuckin cup. I want a trophy. Silverware means far more to me than bragging rights.
The cup. At best we might finish 6th or 7th in the league. A trophy would be a fitting addition to moyes' tenure as I see it.
We have to go for both. Beat the RS and we hit Moyesies magical 40 pts, give ourselves a massive boost for the QF and keep things rolling.
Play a weakened side tomorrow night, get beat, end the recent run, still short of 40 pts and Moyes starts to tinker, thinking about the Arse game next week. GAMBLE!
Play a weakened side tomorrow night, get beat, end the recent run, still short of 40 pts and Moyes starts to tinker, thinking about the Arse game next week. GAMBLE!
Colin (934).
While I understand your point, I just think if Moyes was a little more positive (ie used managerial skills), we would start the season better and maybe get another shot at the promised land of the Champions League qualifiers...
While I understand your point, I just think if Moyes was a little more positive (ie used managerial skills), we would start the season better and maybe get another shot at the promised land of the Champions League qualifiers...
Stop getting ahead of yourselves !
One game at a time, the shite are first up and we should go all out to twat them.
They are fucked without CL football next season so lets hammer a nail in that coffin.
The derby is a massive game and one that i think we will kick on further from if we win it.
The cup will look after itself come Saturday, a win on Tuesday and confidence will be flying.
One game at a time, the shite are first up and we should go all out to twat them.
They are fucked without CL football next season so lets hammer a nail in that coffin.
The derby is a massive game and one that i think we will kick on further from if we win it.
The cup will look after itself come Saturday, a win on Tuesday and confidence will be flying.
Graham, If you can not remember Moyes stating clearly before the 3 and 4th round that his priority is the league then that is not my problem, since you made the claim that I am making "shit" up then you go and prove that accusation.
Did I hurt your feelings by saying that I remember Moyes stating something to the media??
If so do not blame me, blame Moyes!!!!
And Dean, I do think you have misunderstood. I am not negative at all. At least I do not view myself that way, perhaps I can be critical but that does not mean I am against this club. Only that I feel some things can be done different.
I am hungry for this club to fulfill its potential. In fact I am positive, and I want us to go all the way so that I can come to Englend and Wembley along with the other Norwegian Evertonians and celebrate.
I would like nothing more. :-) I just feel slightly concerned going by our history of getting knocked out early.
Did I hurt your feelings by saying that I remember Moyes stating something to the media??
If so do not blame me, blame Moyes!!!!
And Dean, I do think you have misunderstood. I am not negative at all. At least I do not view myself that way, perhaps I can be critical but that does not mean I am against this club. Only that I feel some things can be done different.
I am hungry for this club to fulfill its potential. In fact I am positive, and I want us to go all the way so that I can come to Englend and Wembley along with the other Norwegian Evertonians and celebrate.
I would like nothing more. :-) I just feel slightly concerned going by our history of getting knocked out early.
You'd have thought supporting Everton for 40 years would have taught me to temper my expectations, but I can't wait for Saturday.
I'm sooo excited - COYB!
I'm sooo excited - COYB!
If anyone is interested I found a link where Moyes stated as I said that the league has to come first!
http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2011/10/25/moyes-unlikely-to-shuffle-pack
To Graham.
Here you have it, I did not just make it up, look for yourself, that is if you even want to now that I have been proven right.:-)
It was one of a couple of times where Moyes said this, though he said what he said before the Chelsea cup game, you can clearly take that as to be the norm for both cups, as they both give European League.
Anyway, I just hope Moyes can re-consider this earlier statement, because I really want us to field the best possible side and to give it a real go.
Not just err on the safe side, because he is afraid of injuries or bookings.
This cup win could turn out to be exactly what we need to keep our form going through the season, us having a chance to go to wembley along with a chance to finish 6th or 7th is just too good to pass up.
http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2011/10/25/moyes-unlikely-to-shuffle-pack
To Graham.
Here you have it, I did not just make it up, look for yourself, that is if you even want to now that I have been proven right.:-)
It was one of a couple of times where Moyes said this, though he said what he said before the Chelsea cup game, you can clearly take that as to be the norm for both cups, as they both give European League.
Anyway, I just hope Moyes can re-consider this earlier statement, because I really want us to field the best possible side and to give it a real go.
Not just err on the safe side, because he is afraid of injuries or bookings.
This cup win could turn out to be exactly what we need to keep our form going through the season, us having a chance to go to wembley along with a chance to finish 6th or 7th is just too good to pass up.
Jimmy, is this the quote you're referring to?
1 Aug 2011 - "I would rather be a good league team than a good cup team because that shows your consistency but I really enjoyed my trips to Wembley for the semi final and the final (in 2009). We didn't win it and it would be nice if we could go one step further."
In contrast to a more recent quote.
18 Feb, 2012 - "You just have to see what comes along but we are desperately trying to get to the final and win the final, that is the job," said Moyes.
"Everybody else is saying the same thing but for us we are trying to do everything we can to get there but that has been the same since our first day here."
I don't see either quote as proof of him prioritizing one competition over the other. His only priority is as it has always ever been, securing 40 points and then seeing where we end up after that.
1 Aug 2011 - "I would rather be a good league team than a good cup team because that shows your consistency but I really enjoyed my trips to Wembley for the semi final and the final (in 2009). We didn't win it and it would be nice if we could go one step further."
In contrast to a more recent quote.
18 Feb, 2012 - "You just have to see what comes along but we are desperately trying to get to the final and win the final, that is the job," said Moyes.
"Everybody else is saying the same thing but for us we are trying to do everything we can to get there but that has been the same since our first day here."
I don't see either quote as proof of him prioritizing one competition over the other. His only priority is as it has always ever been, securing 40 points and then seeing where we end up after that.
Nevermind, was typing up my post as you posted that. Should've thought to look on the OS first!
The way the season is panning out for some of the so called big teams, we genuinely have nobody left to fear in the cup and have a great chance of winning it.
But finishes above the RS are so rare, they are even outnumbered by our trips to Wembley.
But finishes above the RS are so rare, they are even outnumbered by our trips to Wembley.
Adam (974) thats a good point but its too simplistic and doesnt take in to account that players are normal people just like you and me, with that they have the same motivations as everyone else. If you are safe in your job, other than money whats the motivation? Players are already well paid, so the only alternative is to have someone else pushing for your job - as an MD of my own company let me tell you this always motivates people to try harder which is a lot better than words of action.
No, the truth is that football squads are motivated by seeing other players coming in and they have even stated this themselves - and no I'm going to provide a link but you generally see this sort of comment all the time in the press from them.
No, the truth is that football squads are motivated by seeing other players coming in and they have even stated this themselves - and no I'm going to provide a link but you generally see this sort of comment all the time in the press from them.
I just want to batter the shite in their own backyard.
I'm sick of hearing their self righteous bile and arrogant gloating as to their higher place at the football table.
They are right about one thing - this is my cup final!
its parochial maybe but I want to be top dog on merseyside at least for half a year!
I'm sick of hearing their self righteous bile and arrogant gloating as to their higher place at the football table.
They are right about one thing - this is my cup final!
its parochial maybe but I want to be top dog on merseyside at least for half a year!
Colin (047)
Dont see Robin van Persie looking over his shoulder at who might replace him.
These are professional footballers who are at the top of their peer group. The manager should get the best from them, and this is where I feel Moyes is a bit lacking. Certain players can continually under perform and still keep their place (eg Saha) and others can be brilliant and dropped.
I know I may be over-simplifying things, but thats how I see it. For me, he doesn't utilise the assets he has, particularly at the start of the season
Dont see Robin van Persie looking over his shoulder at who might replace him.
These are professional footballers who are at the top of their peer group. The manager should get the best from them, and this is where I feel Moyes is a bit lacking. Certain players can continually under perform and still keep their place (eg Saha) and others can be brilliant and dropped.
I know I may be over-simplifying things, but thats how I see it. For me, he doesn't utilise the assets he has, particularly at the start of the season
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711 Posted 11/03/2012 at 06:25:52
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