Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Winning with the kids
25 Comments: Normally I am pissed when I try to put up a mailbag item so, more often than not, I am talking shite.
I have just watched a Man Utd side demolish a ten-man Wolves and it was by no way a United first team on show. I was watching the game with a Kenyan Arsenal fan (there are loads of them in Africa).
I got to thinking about when United and Arsenal first won their Premier League trophies.... Anyone remember? I do and they both won with young inexperienced teams (granted, United had Brian McClair, Steve Bruce and Brian Robson).
They did not spend megabucks like Chelsea and Man City have. Apart from Rooney, show me a megastar in their current line-up. Their best player came from Wigan.
So why can't we just play our best young players and tell them to go out and destroy teams? We have an experienced back four, whatever that may be, so we have that freedom. As people are always quoting on this site, we have many internationals. So why can't we?
My answer is our manager who is a good guy but is not a risk taker and a winner. Many of you will be thinking "Ah... another Moyes hater". Well, I don't hate the guy but I am not his biggest fan either. But do you know what: give me a Steve Jobs any day rather than playing it safe. Don't forget (for those of us old enough), Ferguson was only one game away from the sack in 1989... and Wenger has never given up on his football philosophy.
How do we want the Everton of the millennium to be remembered? As perennial ne'r-do-wells who just survived? Or as a team who gave it a chance and then went on to become Champions...
I know what bracket I want to be in.
Paul Johnson, Posted 18/03/2012 at 20:49:22
Comments
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Eric Myles
235 Posted 19/03/2012 at 01:28:05
235 Posted 19/03/2012 at 01:28:05
"perennial ne'r-do-wells who just survived?" Just survived in 8th place?
The kids haven't been properly trained in tracking back, defending corners or running the channels yet.
The kids haven't been properly trained in tracking back, defending corners or running the channels yet.
Adam Fenlon
247 Posted 19/03/2012 at 04:29:49
247 Posted 19/03/2012 at 04:29:49
Steve Jobs? Perhaps you're right - Moyes does have a lousy record of developing and marketing consumer electronics products!
Jeremy Benson
252 Posted 19/03/2012 at 06:23:49
252 Posted 19/03/2012 at 06:23:49
Eh?
Man Utd have spent plenty on their current line up.
Carrick was £18.6 million
De Gea was £18 million.
Nani was £22 million.
Thats only the first three I could be bothered checking. Complete tosh...
Man Utd have spent plenty on their current line up.
Carrick was £18.6 million
De Gea was £18 million.
Nani was £22 million.
Thats only the first three I could be bothered checking. Complete tosh...
Steve Pugh
257 Posted 19/03/2012 at 07:36:47
257 Posted 19/03/2012 at 07:36:47
"How do we want the Everton of the millennium to be remembered? As perennial ne'r-do-wells who just survived? Or as a team who gave it a chance and then went on to become Champions..."
Paul, do you really think it's that simple? What about the team that took a chance and then went on to get relegated. It is just as likely to happen, if not more so, than becoming champions. and if we do get relegated what are the odds of bouncing straight back up. City didn't, Forest haven't, nor have Southampton, Leeds, Derby.....
Paul, do you really think it's that simple? What about the team that took a chance and then went on to get relegated. It is just as likely to happen, if not more so, than becoming champions. and if we do get relegated what are the odds of bouncing straight back up. City didn't, Forest haven't, nor have Southampton, Leeds, Derby.....
James Martin
259 Posted 19/03/2012 at 08:27:05
259 Posted 19/03/2012 at 08:27:05
Why would we play our youth team when no-one else in the league does? If Rodwell is the best of them then we won't be seeing any for a long time judging by his recent performances.
Which striker is going to be better than Jelavic? Which wide players better than Pienaar or Drenthe? I'll admit I'd like there to be 2 or 3 central midfielders who could get rid of the one-dimensional Fellaini- Rodwell-Cahill triangle but aside from Barkley, who Moyes clearly doesn't see as being ready, there doesn't appear to be any.
Which striker is going to be better than Jelavic? Which wide players better than Pienaar or Drenthe? I'll admit I'd like there to be 2 or 3 central midfielders who could get rid of the one-dimensional Fellaini- Rodwell-Cahill triangle but aside from Barkley, who Moyes clearly doesn't see as being ready, there doesn't appear to be any.
Richard Dodd
262 Posted 19/03/2012 at 08:46:05
262 Posted 19/03/2012 at 08:46:05
I think we should stop judging the long-term future of Jack Rodwell or that of any of our younger players purely on the cameo performances they are allowed. Only when youngsters get a good run can you judge their true ability and, clearly, Davey does not think the time is right for that just now.
Barry Rathbone
271 Posted 19/03/2012 at 09:06:06
271 Posted 19/03/2012 at 09:06:06
I like the idea, this is where all the other clubs get it wrong ? changing managers every 5 mins kills off the kids.
Fortunately the foresight of giving Moyes 10 years has given this production line of top class youngsters in the first team.
He may never win anything, but can you question his vision?
Fortunately the foresight of giving Moyes 10 years has given this production line of top class youngsters in the first team.
He may never win anything, but can you question his vision?
John Keating
275 Posted 19/03/2012 at 09:50:06
275 Posted 19/03/2012 at 09:50:06
Barry.
His vision like Tuesday's team selection??
His vision like Tuesday's team selection??
Dick Fearon
277 Posted 19/03/2012 at 09:58:56
277 Posted 19/03/2012 at 09:58:56
Barry R # 271
Where is this production line of top class kids?
Oh, I geddit, you were just being a tad cynical.
Where is this production line of top class kids?
Oh, I geddit, you were just being a tad cynical.
Barry Rathbone
279 Posted 19/03/2012 at 10:00:47
279 Posted 19/03/2012 at 10:00:47
John
Massive, massive dose of sarcasm from moi there.
Moyes is killing us, the biggest indictment is his lack of vision.
If we have the kids he won't play them OR they're just not good enough.
Dreadful from a coach given more time than any contemporary.
Massive, massive dose of sarcasm from moi there.
Moyes is killing us, the biggest indictment is his lack of vision.
If we have the kids he won't play them OR they're just not good enough.
Dreadful from a coach given more time than any contemporary.
Mark Stone
283 Posted 19/03/2012 at 10:51:37
283 Posted 19/03/2012 at 10:51:37
Jeremy, add Rooney and Ferdinand at £30m a piece to that!
Daniel A Johnson
297 Posted 19/03/2012 at 12:39:20
297 Posted 19/03/2012 at 12:39:20
The issue is how many kids do United go through every year just to get 4-5 that are in around their first team now.
You cant just say "Look, Utd have done it, why can't we?" ... the answer is QUALITY.
You cant just say "Look, Utd have done it, why can't we?" ... the answer is QUALITY.
Tim Locke
299 Posted 19/03/2012 at 12:35:49
299 Posted 19/03/2012 at 12:35:49
Carrick £18.6m
De Gea £18.9m
Nani £13.5
Berbatov £30.7
Smalling £10m
Young £17m
Jones £17m
Valencia £16m
Ferdinand £27.5m
Anderson £15m, so only about £200m out, well done you
De Gea £18.9m
Nani £13.5
Berbatov £30.7
Smalling £10m
Young £17m
Jones £17m
Valencia £16m
Ferdinand £27.5m
Anderson £15m, so only about £200m out, well done you
Dan McKie
302 Posted 19/03/2012 at 12:49:35
302 Posted 19/03/2012 at 12:49:35
Yeah, they only spend anything between 10 and 20 million pounds per 'kid', usually after playing a couple of years at a high level, so pretty do-able for Everton. Let's not forget the foreign ones seemingly plucked from nowhere usually come at a decent cost, as well as a lot of greasing parents' palms with cars and houses!
Mark Stone
322 Posted 19/03/2012 at 14:19:15
322 Posted 19/03/2012 at 14:19:15
If it is so easy, why are Utd spending so much nowadays? Why not just sustain the youth model that they won their early titles with? The fact is, the Premier League is a different world now. The entire league now is no longer the best English players with a sprinkling of talented foreigners, it's a collection of the best players brought in from all around the world.
Quite simply the model which Ferguson employed so succesfully all those years ago is now unsuitable ? hence why he now (as has been the case for at least a decade) goes out and buys the world's best players for huge amounts of money. Middlesbrough did what you are suggesting, and they had some bloody good young players.
Quite simply the model which Ferguson employed so succesfully all those years ago is now unsuitable ? hence why he now (as has been the case for at least a decade) goes out and buys the world's best players for huge amounts of money. Middlesbrough did what you are suggesting, and they had some bloody good young players.
Andy Callan
334 Posted 19/03/2012 at 16:08:54
334 Posted 19/03/2012 at 16:08:54
Remembered? By whom? We'll never win the league until someone comes along with about £500m for players and the same for a stadium......!!!!!!
Just be happy that we're being kept in the top flight, otherwise we would be fucked.
If we had a load of kids there were indeed good enough, then they'd be in the team, or end up at Utd like Shrek.
Look at Rodwell; Fergie never bought him coz he isn't good enough. It's as black and white as that.....!!!!!!!
Just be happy that we're being kept in the top flight, otherwise we would be fucked.
If we had a load of kids there were indeed good enough, then they'd be in the team, or end up at Utd like Shrek.
Look at Rodwell; Fergie never bought him coz he isn't good enough. It's as black and white as that.....!!!!!!!
Paul Johnson
376 Posted 19/03/2012 at 20:01:59
376 Posted 19/03/2012 at 20:01:59
Guys some of you have missed my point.
United won the league by taking a gamble with the likes of Giggs, Beckham and Neville. He could spend big on Ferdinand because he only needed to buy one player a season.
Then look at Wenger bringing in Anelka, Henry, Tony Adams.
They both gambled..... Why can't we. We have a good back four and an international keeper so let's give Gueye, Barkley, Vellios, a run in the side. I don't mean 20 mins here and there. I mean 10-15games and let's see if these boys have what it takes.
Let's take some risks what else have we got to lose this season.
United won the league by taking a gamble with the likes of Giggs, Beckham and Neville. He could spend big on Ferdinand because he only needed to buy one player a season.
Then look at Wenger bringing in Anelka, Henry, Tony Adams.
They both gambled..... Why can't we. We have a good back four and an international keeper so let's give Gueye, Barkley, Vellios, a run in the side. I don't mean 20 mins here and there. I mean 10-15games and let's see if these boys have what it takes.
Let's take some risks what else have we got to lose this season.
Paul Johnson
377 Posted 19/03/2012 at 20:15:13
377 Posted 19/03/2012 at 20:15:13
Eric your take on 'just surviving' is probably a bit different from mine.
You don't get any medals for finishing 8th. If we don't gamble we are always going to finish 8th.
Whoop de dooo. It's like shagging the wife at the same time in the same position every night. Great at first but you soon want something different, I want something different.
You don't get any medals for finishing 8th. If we don't gamble we are always going to finish 8th.
Whoop de dooo. It's like shagging the wife at the same time in the same position every night. Great at first but you soon want something different, I want something different.
Roman Sidey
386 Posted 19/03/2012 at 21:03:40
386 Posted 19/03/2012 at 21:03:40
I'm neither here nor there, and, for the record, I think the Man Utd call was a bit far fetched. For shits and giggles though, here's that list of players in a few words:
Carrick £18.6m - overpriced when bought, panic buy, shite.
De Gea £18.9m - over priced for a 'keeper - could turn out good.
Nani £13.5 - absolute fuckwit.
Berbatov £30.7 - obsolete, waste of money.
Smalling £10m - good business from both clubs.
Young £17m - English, divide by 3 if he wasn't.
Jones £17m - Young and English, see above.
Valencia £16m - United's contribution to keeping Wigan up.
Ferdinand £27.5m - over priced when bought, good player, but shit now.
Anderson £15m - I think a scout may have lost his job on this one.
Carrick £18.6m - overpriced when bought, panic buy, shite.
De Gea £18.9m - over priced for a 'keeper - could turn out good.
Nani £13.5 - absolute fuckwit.
Berbatov £30.7 - obsolete, waste of money.
Smalling £10m - good business from both clubs.
Young £17m - English, divide by 3 if he wasn't.
Jones £17m - Young and English, see above.
Valencia £16m - United's contribution to keeping Wigan up.
Ferdinand £27.5m - over priced when bought, good player, but shit now.
Anderson £15m - I think a scout may have lost his job on this one.
Lee Courtliff
387 Posted 19/03/2012 at 22:21:32
387 Posted 19/03/2012 at 22:21:32
So Wenger brought in Tony Adams did he ? If Fergie only bought one player at a time then Moyes is the modern day Kevin Keegan!!
James Flynn
400 Posted 19/03/2012 at 23:55:56
400 Posted 19/03/2012 at 23:55:56
Paul (376) - Slow down a bit. Giggs, Beckham, Neville, Anelka, and Henry weren't gambles. Not talking looking back. They weren't gambles when they came thru.
Not talking about their subsequent careers. When they first hit the scene, no-one called them gambles.
Not talking about their subsequent careers. When they first hit the scene, no-one called them gambles.
Stephen Kenny
448 Posted 20/03/2012 at 12:33:56
448 Posted 20/03/2012 at 12:33:56
Paul,
I see your point mate and I agree if the kids are good enough. One or two of ours may be BUT, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes and the Nevilles would be playing every week for us if they were on their way through now.
Those players have all been amongst the best in Europe for a decade. They are too good to keep down. They all made an instant impact at a title winning side. Only Barkley and Vellios can really say they had an impact.
I see your point mate and I agree if the kids are good enough. One or two of ours may be BUT, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes and the Nevilles would be playing every week for us if they were on their way through now.
Those players have all been amongst the best in Europe for a decade. They are too good to keep down. They all made an instant impact at a title winning side. Only Barkley and Vellios can really say they had an impact.
Trevor Lynes
672 Posted 21/03/2012 at 18:56:08
672 Posted 21/03/2012 at 18:56:08
The best thing Fergie ever did was produce both Nevilles, Butt, Scholes, Giggs and Beckham... all British players BUT they were well bolstered by the steady influx of top foreign players and let's face it, there must also be an element of good fortune for ALL the youngsters to go on and have fantastic careers.
But Man Utd have spent a lot to maintain their top position and have unloaded injury prone and ageing players at the right time.
But Man Utd have spent a lot to maintain their top position and have unloaded injury prone and ageing players at the right time.
Thomas Windsor
815 Posted 22/03/2012 at 15:23:41
815 Posted 22/03/2012 at 15:23:41
Went on YouTube found an Everton match against Man Utd, first game of the season 1967-68 Two centre forwards: Joe Royle and Brian Kidd, both only 18 years old... so sometimes you have to take a gamble and play them.
In Vellios we might have a player who can work with Jelavic or where is Barkley? That's why I think it is time Kenwright called time on Moyes, he won't keep youth in the side.
In Vellios we might have a player who can work with Jelavic or where is Barkley? That's why I think it is time Kenwright called time on Moyes, he won't keep youth in the side.
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234 Posted 19/03/2012 at 01:07:46
And by the way, just look up how much money Ferguson spent before he finally won the title. It might seem a pittance now but at the time the likes of Webb, Pallister, Phelan and many others cost, at the time, big money. He broke transfer records signing Pallister, Keane and Cole.
I'm not being funny mate, it's just that I sometimes think people believe it was just their 'amazing' youth system that brought them all their success. And it wasn't..... Fergie has always had plenty of money to spend.