Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Poor tactics or lack of quality?
71 Comments: I watched Saturday's game twice, yes a glutton for punishment. I thought we played okay and there were a few fine individual performances. Heitinga and Distin look solid and Fellaini covers a huge amount of ground in front of them. However, in the second half, when Sunderland sat back, I never believed we would score. Even less so when Drenthe was replaced.
As Dave Wilson said on another thread, Sunderland played like a typical O'Neill team and we simply couldn't respond. It has been like that all season against teams who are well organized yet are the teams we must beat if we are to move ahead. We press forward quite aimlessly against them and invariably give one away.
Yesterday, I started to count the aimless punts into the Sunderland box and gave up. It was awful, relentless hoofball. Now, whatever my reservations about David Moyes, I am quite sure this is not his game plan. Then, looking at the game again it was astonishing to see how often the player on the ball had absolutely no options available and simply hoofed it up the pitch. The movement was almost none existent. Jelavic showed a lot of promise and offers hope, Drenthe offers something different but will probably fall out of favour with Moyes. Osman can make a telling pass but was poor yesterday.
Is the ability to find space against an organised team week after week something for the gifted few like Van Persie, Rooney etc? In other words do our players not have the quality to create on a consistent level? Can quick and imaginative movement not be coached?
Poor tactics or lack of quality?
Andy Crooks, Posted 19/03/2012 at 09:36:39
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The truth is, we need to concentrate less on fitness and more on creativity. How players who make a good living in football can get away with failing to cross a ball accurately into the box is beyond me.
The failings are as usual there for all to see but time and time again the players make the same mistakes. I fear Jelavic will go the same way as all our previous strikers when he tires of the Sunday league service.
The failings are as usual there for all to see but time and time again the players make the same mistakes. I fear Jelavic will go the same way as all our previous strikers when he tires of the Sunday league service.
I thought overall the team played quite well against a very good Sunderland side.
However one constant criticism I have is that we never get that many players in the box.
If we watch United, RS and the likes of Spurs and Arsenal they have many options due to the number of players up with the ball.
Our build-up play is generally so slow that the opposing team have time to get behind the ball and, with the exception of Baines, none of the players will commit to forward play rather than sideways or backwards.
That is what spending serious money on players buys you.
However one constant criticism I have is that we never get that many players in the box.
If we watch United, RS and the likes of Spurs and Arsenal they have many options due to the number of players up with the ball.
Our build-up play is generally so slow that the opposing team have time to get behind the ball and, with the exception of Baines, none of the players will commit to forward play rather than sideways or backwards.
That is what spending serious money on players buys you.
... or maybe we just drew with a team on the same level of points as us and were unfortunate not to win.
The guy screwed up against Liverpool big time which as someone pointed out is affecting views on this match.
The guy screwed up against Liverpool big time which as someone pointed out is affecting views on this match.
I think Andy has a good point in the OP. Movement off the ball is one thing I think Moyes's teams have lacked on the whole and i think must be at least in part down to coaching in tactics. I suppose if you play a very organised style then spontaneous forward movement risks losing shape. Moving into space is what allows the sort of passing and style of play characterised by Barca and to a lesser extent Man U and Arsenal.
Either way I think this is the reason we struggle against bus-parkers and end up just punting into the box, hoping for some good fortune.
Either way I think this is the reason we struggle against bus-parkers and end up just punting into the box, hoping for some good fortune.
Players like Rooney and Van Persie make themselves better, not any manager. Flip RVP with any of our "Strikers" and flip our and Arsenal's position in the league. RVP and Rooney (and others like them) provide some margin for error with their attacking threat (not to mention altering opposing managers' defensive strategy). EFC has no one remotely close to providing the same.
This, more than anything is why we're perrenial mid-tablers instead of legit contenders. Predators cost money, which we don't have and won't til we get new ownership.
Kenwright OUT!
This, more than anything is why we're perrenial mid-tablers instead of legit contenders. Predators cost money, which we don't have and won't til we get new ownership.
Kenwright OUT!
Watching on Saturday, we were crying out for a number 10 in the hole behind Jelavic. I love Cahill for what he's done but we need someone with a bit of class who can play a clever pass. I would try Pienaar there for a few games and see how he does. Saturday was depressing watching endless long balls punted towards Jelavic, Cahill and Fellaini.
I was at the Game on Saturday and a few things stood out.
I think it is both poor tactics and a lack of quality. Tactically we are far to cautious and there are always very limited options for whoever is on the ball other than a backwards pass.
We are also just too slow! It takes us an age just get players and the ball into their half. Part of this is due to a total lack of pace all across the team. This makes us pretty easy to shut out. Coupled with the fact we never shoot from outside the box!
There was far too much hit and hope and when Fellaini was pushed forward that only got worst. We need to start bringing in a couple of players with pace or we will continue to not break teams down.
I think it is both poor tactics and a lack of quality. Tactically we are far to cautious and there are always very limited options for whoever is on the ball other than a backwards pass.
We are also just too slow! It takes us an age just get players and the ball into their half. Part of this is due to a total lack of pace all across the team. This makes us pretty easy to shut out. Coupled with the fact we never shoot from outside the box!
There was far too much hit and hope and when Fellaini was pushed forward that only got worst. We need to start bringing in a couple of players with pace or we will continue to not break teams down.
A big part of that is, without Pienaar and Donovan in that midfield, we create sweet FA as usual.
Too many shite crosses on Saturday.
You ask 'Can quick, imiginative movement not be coached ?'... Well one of the players you mentioned, learned his early trade with us, being coached by our own staff. He left and then learned even more from world class players and a management team with a winning mentality.
Who on earth is Ross Barkley learning his skills from?
Our skillful players this season, and dare I say 'flair' players are not even ours... they are / were all on loan (Pienaar, Donovan, Drenthe ). So potentially we are left with not an awful lot once they leave us... Scary thoughts.
Who on earth is Ross Barkley learning his skills from?
Our skillful players this season, and dare I say 'flair' players are not even ours... they are / were all on loan (Pienaar, Donovan, Drenthe ). So potentially we are left with not an awful lot once they leave us... Scary thoughts.
One observation I had on Saturday is that Baines seems to get forward a lot less when Drenthe is ahead of him.
I'm guessing in the main this is because Baines relies on the return ball when going forward and Drenthe normally tries something amazing or awfull that doesn't involve Baines.
Although I'm not a massive fan of players playing out of position, I thought that against Spurs, Baines and Coleman worked a lot better and we still had the threat of Drenthe on the right; also, when Drenthe plays on the right, either Neville or Hibbert provides a good insurance when he does something silly.
I'm guessing in the main this is because Baines relies on the return ball when going forward and Drenthe normally tries something amazing or awfull that doesn't involve Baines.
Although I'm not a massive fan of players playing out of position, I thought that against Spurs, Baines and Coleman worked a lot better and we still had the threat of Drenthe on the right; also, when Drenthe plays on the right, either Neville or Hibbert provides a good insurance when he does something silly.
It's simple - the players aren't good enough....
7th or 8th in the league is about right for the players we have.
No amount of crying about the manager or his tactics can detract from this simple fact.
Victory on pens next Tuesday will do........!!!!!!!
7th or 8th in the league is about right for the players we have.
No amount of crying about the manager or his tactics can detract from this simple fact.
Victory on pens next Tuesday will do........!!!!!!!
Against teams like Sunderland, who arent very good but are organised, we need a player like Pienaar, or a ref who can spot a penalty, unlike the twat we had on Saturday.
I thought we did OK on Saturday given the confidence bashing we took last Tuesday night.
Jelly looks the real deal and Felli definitely covered a lot of ground and hardly gives it away. Timmy C was emphatic and the two centre halves were colossal!! IMWT
Awful tactics as per usual, abysmal man management skills, zero motivational skills, clueless football ethos, dreadful coaching... need I go on? The fact that Moyes basically told Martin O'Neill we would beat them on Saturday with his shocking antics on Tuesday was all Sunderland needed really.
With all the years under his belt as a football manager, Moyes still can't/won't learn or change from his mistakes. Sunderland were under no pressure whatsoever in Saturday's Cup tie because of what Soft Lad did in midweek. In one fell swoop, he took all the pressure off the Mackems and heaped it on his own team. Fucking clown.
If you think one of the up-and-coming managers in the game at present couldn't do a better job than Moyes with this current squad, you are as daft as Moyes himself.
With Moyes in charge there is no point progressing any further in the cup to meet the Shite because Moyes will crap his kecks once more.
With all the years under his belt as a football manager, Moyes still can't/won't learn or change from his mistakes. Sunderland were under no pressure whatsoever in Saturday's Cup tie because of what Soft Lad did in midweek. In one fell swoop, he took all the pressure off the Mackems and heaped it on his own team. Fucking clown.
If you think one of the up-and-coming managers in the game at present couldn't do a better job than Moyes with this current squad, you are as daft as Moyes himself.
With Moyes in charge there is no point progressing any further in the cup to meet the Shite because Moyes will crap his kecks once more.
You can teach a technique and you can practice a skill but you cant develop a footballing brain. Rooney has a football brain (if little in the general intelligence stakes), and also has fantastic technique and skills. One thing he does, according to youngsters at Man U, is practice his technique and skills constantly so that when linked to his footballing brain the outcome is class. RVP is very similar and whilst I have no knowledge of his level of practice, I bet it's similar.
So where does that leave us? Fellaini, Drenthe, Osman and Baines have great technique on the ball and have good skill in possession, but do any of them have a footballing brain? Coleman, Straq, Cahill, Jagielka, Neville and Hibbert have poor technique and average skill and probably the same level of footballing nous. How we miss Arteta's brain and Pienaar when he's cup-tied.
Moyes's technique as a manager is the way we play and his skill is the ability to adapt and change. His footballing brain is about the right selection against the right team with the right tactics. Anfield anyone?
Too many players (and the manager) are about commitment, enthusiasm and endeavour so, to answer the original question, poor tactics and poor quality.
Here's another question: Why is it that so few English footballers have a footballing brain? Look around the Premier League and all the talented footballers seem to be foreign and then ask what will we produce with our coaching set-up being so defensively weighted? What price Barkley disappearing down the altar of percentage football and hoofball unless he moves on ? bring on Martinez or Rogers and let them manage better players.
So where does that leave us? Fellaini, Drenthe, Osman and Baines have great technique on the ball and have good skill in possession, but do any of them have a footballing brain? Coleman, Straq, Cahill, Jagielka, Neville and Hibbert have poor technique and average skill and probably the same level of footballing nous. How we miss Arteta's brain and Pienaar when he's cup-tied.
Moyes's technique as a manager is the way we play and his skill is the ability to adapt and change. His footballing brain is about the right selection against the right team with the right tactics. Anfield anyone?
Too many players (and the manager) are about commitment, enthusiasm and endeavour so, to answer the original question, poor tactics and poor quality.
Here's another question: Why is it that so few English footballers have a footballing brain? Look around the Premier League and all the talented footballers seem to be foreign and then ask what will we produce with our coaching set-up being so defensively weighted? What price Barkley disappearing down the altar of percentage football and hoofball unless he moves on ? bring on Martinez or Rogers and let them manage better players.
Watching that game highlighted how much we rely on going up the wings.
I'm glad that we've got proper wingers on both sides of the pitch but with Fellaini or Cahill in an advanced position you don't have anybody around the that can see the killer pass or has the ability to execute it. That's why so many crosses go into the box.
I think if Gibson (whose contribution I underated) or Rodwell get fit then we've got players that can drive forward and shoot. This means we can push Osman into a position where he can hurt teams.
Pushing Fellaini up means going route 1. In certain instances it's worth doing but it needs doing properly, which we don't. We need to get runners going past the ball and people around it to get the second ball.
I'm glad that we've got proper wingers on both sides of the pitch but with Fellaini or Cahill in an advanced position you don't have anybody around the that can see the killer pass or has the ability to execute it. That's why so many crosses go into the box.
I think if Gibson (whose contribution I underated) or Rodwell get fit then we've got players that can drive forward and shoot. This means we can push Osman into a position where he can hurt teams.
Pushing Fellaini up means going route 1. In certain instances it's worth doing but it needs doing properly, which we don't. We need to get runners going past the ball and people around it to get the second ball.
I would love to see how Rogers would tactically set us up.
Outstanding talent who is a complete polar opposite to Moyes tactically...
Outstanding talent who is a complete polar opposite to Moyes tactically...
"I would love to see how Rogers would tactically set us up.
Outstanding talent who is a complete polar opposite to Moyes tactically..."
My curiosity about this argument is that I can't really tell to what extent we're conservative because that's Moyes way, and to what extent Moyes has become conservative over time because of the club's circumstances.
I certainly don't remember feeling he was excessively conservative when he first arrived (and, in fact, that first part-season after he took over saw some silly high-scoring games). Neither can I argue that he's very conservative now.
It's why I don't believe that a change of manager would lead to any significant improvement in the long term. That's not to say that we wouldn't see a short-term improvement and a greater use of our current squad.
But the comparison with the likes of Paul Lambert or Brendan Rogers isn't appropriate, because we have no way of judging what their tactical approach would be after 10 years of seeing funds evaporate when they were in a position to kick onwards, or seeing better players sold from under them.
I think Moyes's problems are a combination of two factors. An inherent preference for a conservative approach, but one that's significantly exacerbated (and increasingly so over time) by the circumstances in which he works under.
i.e. Until the underlying issues of BK's ownership are resolved, I don't believe that any manager will be able to provide a significantly greater degree of long-term success. But after 10 years of Moyes, I'm not sure he'd be able to adapt to give us long-term success even if his financial circumstances changed.
Outstanding talent who is a complete polar opposite to Moyes tactically..."
My curiosity about this argument is that I can't really tell to what extent we're conservative because that's Moyes way, and to what extent Moyes has become conservative over time because of the club's circumstances.
I certainly don't remember feeling he was excessively conservative when he first arrived (and, in fact, that first part-season after he took over saw some silly high-scoring games). Neither can I argue that he's very conservative now.
It's why I don't believe that a change of manager would lead to any significant improvement in the long term. That's not to say that we wouldn't see a short-term improvement and a greater use of our current squad.
But the comparison with the likes of Paul Lambert or Brendan Rogers isn't appropriate, because we have no way of judging what their tactical approach would be after 10 years of seeing funds evaporate when they were in a position to kick onwards, or seeing better players sold from under them.
I think Moyes's problems are a combination of two factors. An inherent preference for a conservative approach, but one that's significantly exacerbated (and increasingly so over time) by the circumstances in which he works under.
i.e. Until the underlying issues of BK's ownership are resolved, I don't believe that any manager will be able to provide a significantly greater degree of long-term success. But after 10 years of Moyes, I'm not sure he'd be able to adapt to give us long-term success even if his financial circumstances changed.
Funny how O'Neill this great positive manager who's revitalised Sunderland brought his team to Goodison and had exactly how many shots on goal? Spent the entire second half penned in their own half by Moyes' tactically clueless negative team. But then i guess its just tactical whenever anyone else does it but not when moyes does. If we'd got the penalties that we deserved or their keeper hadn't of pulled off that save then we would have deservedly won. You can bemoan a lack of quality amongst the players but the game against Sunderland was hardly Everton being negative. We were all over them so much that they just parked the bus for the majority of the second half. If we actually had been as negative as everyone says we might have drawn them on to us and got one on the counter when they didn't have 11 behind the ball.
A few irritating points from the game:
1) Arguing who takes a free kick, in the end it was Heitinga who got the nod..... WTF! How many more times does Baines have to show that he is one of the best in the PL at free kicks around the box, so why doesn't Moyes say "LEIGHTON TAKES FREE KICKS.... PERIOD" ?
2) Osman is good when he is good, but when he is crap, he needs to be taken off first. He offers the team too little in games like this.
3) Why, when we are surging forward and players have made great runs to get in dangerous positions does the next fucking pass go backwards?
4) Where is Barkley? ... and why does Moyes say he will now get more games... when he doesn't?
1) Arguing who takes a free kick, in the end it was Heitinga who got the nod..... WTF! How many more times does Baines have to show that he is one of the best in the PL at free kicks around the box, so why doesn't Moyes say "LEIGHTON TAKES FREE KICKS.... PERIOD" ?
2) Osman is good when he is good, but when he is crap, he needs to be taken off first. He offers the team too little in games like this.
3) Why, when we are surging forward and players have made great runs to get in dangerous positions does the next fucking pass go backwards?
4) Where is Barkley? ... and why does Moyes say he will now get more games... when he doesn't?
James #355
Reminded me of the week before against Spurs. Why the fuck didn't Moyes come out and speak to the press and telly???
Reminded me of the week before against Spurs. Why the fuck didn't Moyes come out and speak to the press and telly???
In my opinion, Everton have gone backward in the last few seasons, with no signs that it will change.
Early in his career Mourinho was offered the job as assistant to another coach in Portugal; he replied "There is a man who can coach for thirty years as a donkey without ever becoming a horse".
I would say that creatively the current squad is pretty threadbare. We can blame lack of funds, but when he has money has Moyes spent it wisely? There are the waste of money players: AvdM, Bily, Krøldrup.
But also players that maybe he didn't get the best out of: Yak, Andrew Johnson
Also players that he held on to for too long costing the club wages and affecting any fee: Saha, Arteta, Pienaar.
I dare say there are plenty more to add, but Moyes could certainly have handled his resources better.
Early in his career Mourinho was offered the job as assistant to another coach in Portugal; he replied "There is a man who can coach for thirty years as a donkey without ever becoming a horse".
I would say that creatively the current squad is pretty threadbare. We can blame lack of funds, but when he has money has Moyes spent it wisely? There are the waste of money players: AvdM, Bily, Krøldrup.
But also players that maybe he didn't get the best out of: Yak, Andrew Johnson
Also players that he held on to for too long costing the club wages and affecting any fee: Saha, Arteta, Pienaar.
I dare say there are plenty more to add, but Moyes could certainly have handled his resources better.
Paul, that manager José spoke of, Ferreira. Well things change...
Primeira Liga (3): 2006?07, 2007?08, 2008?09
Portuguese Cup (2): 2008?09, 2009?10
Portuguese SuperCup (1): 2008?09
Primeira Liga (3): 2006?07, 2007?08, 2008?09
Portuguese Cup (2): 2008?09, 2009?10
Portuguese SuperCup (1): 2008?09
Surely no-one would seriously suggest that Swansea have players of a better quality than those who currently represent our club? Of course we will never know but I truly believe that were Brendan Rodgers in charge of our squad, the quality of football AND results would be simply different class.
I didn't go on Saturday, opting for a one-man protest at the manager`s ridiculous behaviour on Tuesday. But, of course, hoof ball is just as offensive on TV and I am positive that, even if he had an open cheque book, it would take a Chelsea style players' protest to see a change in how we play.
I know the chairman and half of Fleet Street think the sun shines out of his arse, but believe me, Moyes, like that chairman, is a bloody phoney destroying the game!
I didn't go on Saturday, opting for a one-man protest at the manager`s ridiculous behaviour on Tuesday. But, of course, hoof ball is just as offensive on TV and I am positive that, even if he had an open cheque book, it would take a Chelsea style players' protest to see a change in how we play.
I know the chairman and half of Fleet Street think the sun shines out of his arse, but believe me, Moyes, like that chairman, is a bloody phoney destroying the game!
Poor tactics or lack of quality?
Until we have a manager who knows how to play football, we won't know what the players are capable of. So, poor tactics? Of course of course, ffs.
Poor quality? That's anyone's guess. I would like to judge the latter if we ever get a creative intelligent manager. Some of our players could find themselves at other clubs being given the chance to express themselves after the shackles had been removed or they could just carry on being over-rated and never develop into the players a lot of people had believed. Who knows? One thing I'm 100% sure of is, nobody will reach their potential under this uninspiring and negative manager.
Until we have a manager who knows how to play football, we won't know what the players are capable of. So, poor tactics? Of course of course, ffs.
Poor quality? That's anyone's guess. I would like to judge the latter if we ever get a creative intelligent manager. Some of our players could find themselves at other clubs being given the chance to express themselves after the shackles had been removed or they could just carry on being over-rated and never develop into the players a lot of people had believed. Who knows? One thing I'm 100% sure of is, nobody will reach their potential under this uninspiring and negative manager.
James Martin - yes, O'Neill is far from being a positive or creative manager. Worse, I would suspect that he wouldn't criticise his players for commiting fouls - unless they cost too many cards or a goal or two perhaps.
The frustration simply has to be that we don't have the guile to get through.
Defence - sound, can be excellent
Midfield - good
Attack - must do better, not just try harder.
And some of us think that the players we already have could be used better.
The frustration simply has to be that we don't have the guile to get through.
Defence - sound, can be excellent
Midfield - good
Attack - must do better, not just try harder.
And some of us think that the players we already have could be used better.
Does anyone think that Jelavic will get fed up playing up front on his own just feeding off long punts down the middle. Surely Moyes will go for it in the replay... two up front ? that's if he wants to win a trophy.
I think the entire team seemed perplexed as to what to do when Drenthe pinged that fantastic cross field pass (early second half? not sure) to get us into an attacking position quickly........it of course ended with no attacking threat and to me that sums up our lack of quality and poor tactics.
I agree Andrew Straight to the feet of Feilaini but not much movement ahead. I know Drenthe can do your head in sometimes but with a bit of luck he could have won the game for us. Should have had a pen and was unlucky with the free kick that hit the bar.
A few thoughts about O'Neill and Rogers.
The wheels started coming off for MON at Villa when he took a reserve team to an away Europa League game and outraged several thousand Villa fans who had made the trip.
His justification was that they were "prioritising" the race for a CL spot and they were comfortably fourth at the time. That weekend they were 2-0 up against Stoke at home with five minutes to go and wound up drawing the game.
The move had backfired big time and the fans never forgave him. He left just over a year later.
And whilst Rogers might be riding the creat of a wave right now, just ask a Reading fan what he thinks about him.
I would reserve judgement on Brendan Rogers for a while yet.
Phil Brown, Roberto Martinez and Ian Holloway were similiarly lauded not so long ago.
Those flavours of the month all taste the same.
The wheels started coming off for MON at Villa when he took a reserve team to an away Europa League game and outraged several thousand Villa fans who had made the trip.
His justification was that they were "prioritising" the race for a CL spot and they were comfortably fourth at the time. That weekend they were 2-0 up against Stoke at home with five minutes to go and wound up drawing the game.
The move had backfired big time and the fans never forgave him. He left just over a year later.
And whilst Rogers might be riding the creat of a wave right now, just ask a Reading fan what he thinks about him.
I would reserve judgement on Brendan Rogers for a while yet.
Phil Brown, Roberto Martinez and Ian Holloway were similiarly lauded not so long ago.
Those flavours of the month all taste the same.
I feel sorry for Drenthe at times.
He carries the ball a long way but no one ever seems to make a run for him and he is forced into taking a wild shot or trying to beat one man too many.
He carries the ball a long way but no one ever seems to make a run for him and he is forced into taking a wild shot or trying to beat one man too many.
Tony cheek ? agree completely. Basic instructions aren't followed or set by the manager. Osman put a great corner which ends up with Distin screwing ball wide; next corner Drenthe takes it hits the first man. Cahill upfront... then Fellaini. Some games Osman outside... then in centre-mid.
We need decisive management. I didn't agree with Moyes's line-up in the derby but if you're going to rest some of the team, why not do it full-hearted with Distin, Baines and Osman rested too.
It's infuriating and reminds me of an amateur Saturday team playing with no manager at times. I don't believe Moyes knows what pattern of play or what he's trying to build ? I'm unsure of the identity of our team other than we keep going till the end.
We need decisive management. I didn't agree with Moyes's line-up in the derby but if you're going to rest some of the team, why not do it full-hearted with Distin, Baines and Osman rested too.
It's infuriating and reminds me of an amateur Saturday team playing with no manager at times. I don't believe Moyes knows what pattern of play or what he's trying to build ? I'm unsure of the identity of our team other than we keep going till the end.
James Martin, appreciate what you say about MoN's tactics, but how many times can you remember Moyes' sending a team out in an away game and they've scored first?
For too long now we've only looked like playing for anything once we're a goal down. Once, you could at least believe that a goal down meant that you had to score two to win. Watching Everton, you know that going a goal down means you need one more to draw.
For too long now we've only looked like playing for anything once we're a goal down. Once, you could at least believe that a goal down meant that you had to score two to win. Watching Everton, you know that going a goal down means you need one more to draw.
There is only one response to a Moyesophile like you, Phil Boden #339 and that's WMWB.
With Moyes We're Bust
With Moyes We're Bust
Moyes uses Coleman as an extra defender - followed Bale everywhere vs Spurs , and double up on McLean with Neville . This means he never ever gets the real opportunity to join the attack or even create opportunities .
When using Coleman on the right Drenthe is played on the left (when Pinnear not available) and our most creative outlet - Baines becomes effectively useless as he's scared to move past Drenthe as he knows he will 50% of time get caught out . He and Pinnear are 200% more effective than Drenthe .
So in the FA Cup we will never ever be creative , the only opportunity is to sit tight with Fellaini and Gibson and hope for a 1 goal win , the other chance is possibly to give Barkley a go - but that will never happen as we all know.
I dream for the day when we buy both Pinnear and Donovan , have Barkley established and have Fellaini and Gibson as the holding players , with Jelavic up front - now there is a creative team.
When using Coleman on the right Drenthe is played on the left (when Pinnear not available) and our most creative outlet - Baines becomes effectively useless as he's scared to move past Drenthe as he knows he will 50% of time get caught out . He and Pinnear are 200% more effective than Drenthe .
So in the FA Cup we will never ever be creative , the only opportunity is to sit tight with Fellaini and Gibson and hope for a 1 goal win , the other chance is possibly to give Barkley a go - but that will never happen as we all know.
I dream for the day when we buy both Pinnear and Donovan , have Barkley established and have Fellaini and Gibson as the holding players , with Jelavic up front - now there is a creative team.
It's just the latest game in a frustrating season. I had said very early on that we had a mediocre mid-table squad and so it has proved. We have scored 28 goals in 28 games and this after Moyes decided that Beckford, Yakubu and Saha were not good enough.
The current crop, Jelavic, Stracq, Anichebe and Cahill, have done no better although the first 2 are new to Moyes's brainless system. Jelavic looks promising but needs a partner (not Osman). Until a partner is found, the goals will not flow as the midfielders behind just do not produce much in the finishing department.
Moyes will probably rest players again tomorrow and on Saturday as he has now set his stall out regarding the Cup. The frustration looks to continue I'm afraid. Wins will continue to be hard to find.
The current crop, Jelavic, Stracq, Anichebe and Cahill, have done no better although the first 2 are new to Moyes's brainless system. Jelavic looks promising but needs a partner (not Osman). Until a partner is found, the goals will not flow as the midfielders behind just do not produce much in the finishing department.
Moyes will probably rest players again tomorrow and on Saturday as he has now set his stall out regarding the Cup. The frustration looks to continue I'm afraid. Wins will continue to be hard to find.
Mike, Coleman had two great opportunities but left his shooting boots at home.
Domino, I didn't feel sorry for Drenthe at all, apart from falling over all the time, he refuses to release the ball to other players who are sometimes in better positions.
It was mentioned earlier that Baines always looks for the pass back, usually gets it fron Pienaar and Osman. Drenthe just tries to take on 4 men then falls over
Domino, I didn't feel sorry for Drenthe at all, apart from falling over all the time, he refuses to release the ball to other players who are sometimes in better positions.
It was mentioned earlier that Baines always looks for the pass back, usually gets it fron Pienaar and Osman. Drenthe just tries to take on 4 men then falls over
But this is it, Tony.....I don't see the other players making clever decoy runs or taking a position for him to pass.
That crossfield pass he hit on Saturday....imagine we had a pacy player to pick that up and charge forward instead of Fellaini being the man in the wing position, a man I think is very good but has no pace and as a result he had to slow up and turn back on himself allowing Sunderland to regroup.
IMO Drenthe is a mich a iuch better player than those around him and is shows when he he is on the ball and rarely has an option.
That crossfield pass he hit on Saturday....imagine we had a pacy player to pick that up and charge forward instead of Fellaini being the man in the wing position, a man I think is very good but has no pace and as a result he had to slow up and turn back on himself allowing Sunderland to regroup.
IMO Drenthe is a mich a iuch better player than those around him and is shows when he he is on the ball and rarely has an option.
Domino, I agree he is much more skillful than 90% of the team, but he is a "flawed genius", as he has the touch of the Beagries about him. Doesn't know when to release it.
With every exquisite 60 yard pass, there is an ignored 2 yard pass followed up with a dive.
He suits the term "luxury player" and with some of the deadwood in our side already, we struggle to accomodate him sometimes
With every exquisite 60 yard pass, there is an ignored 2 yard pass followed up with a dive.
He suits the term "luxury player" and with some of the deadwood in our side already, we struggle to accomodate him sometimes
So, we've got:-
A luxury player in Drenthe who isn't up to it Baines not getting forward enough
Hibbert and Osman not being up to it
No decent no 10 to thread passes
No decent partner for Jelavic
Too many holding midfield players
No movement
Slow passes
Hoofball football
No footballing brains
No clear free-kick taker
No decent crosses from the wings
No players in the box
A team who don't batter the opposition
A goalkeeper who loses us goals
Moyes in charge
Kenwright as chairman
A stadium that's too old
No money
No buyers
Small kit deal
Small sponsorship
Disillusioned fan base
Big debts
Neighbours getting cocky again
No chance of winning anything
.....
Still. Not all bad eh?
Moyes has just done 10 years in charge. Remind me how I order the dvd to commemorate the fact?
Depressing.
A luxury player in Drenthe who isn't up to it Baines not getting forward enough
Hibbert and Osman not being up to it
No decent no 10 to thread passes
No decent partner for Jelavic
Too many holding midfield players
No movement
Slow passes
Hoofball football
No footballing brains
No clear free-kick taker
No decent crosses from the wings
No players in the box
A team who don't batter the opposition
A goalkeeper who loses us goals
Moyes in charge
Kenwright as chairman
A stadium that's too old
No money
No buyers
Small kit deal
Small sponsorship
Disillusioned fan base
Big debts
Neighbours getting cocky again
No chance of winning anything
.....
Still. Not all bad eh?
Moyes has just done 10 years in charge. Remind me how I order the dvd to commemorate the fact?
Depressing.
Paul Watson #363.
Go on, say something positive about the blues! All managers fuck up in the transfer market, but you don?t need to be a genius to see that Moyes has bought more good than shit, and your other comments are just not worth arguing about, ... when you say ?Moyes didn?t get the best out the Yak?, he was top scorer first season, what more do you want?
Peter Barry #410 plus numerous other post?s.
Do you go to GP, or is it all pure on-line shite that gives you the ability to the slag off Everton. If you went to GP you would know that the majority of the crowd are behind Moyes & behind the team ? if you went to an away game then you would see and hear a total backing of Moyes. Are they all totally clueless about football? Moyes is the manager of Everton and come next season he will still be the manager of Everton, so my guess is if you don?t like it ..!
Go on, say something positive about the blues! All managers fuck up in the transfer market, but you don?t need to be a genius to see that Moyes has bought more good than shit, and your other comments are just not worth arguing about, ... when you say ?Moyes didn?t get the best out the Yak?, he was top scorer first season, what more do you want?
Peter Barry #410 plus numerous other post?s.
Do you go to GP, or is it all pure on-line shite that gives you the ability to the slag off Everton. If you went to GP you would know that the majority of the crowd are behind Moyes & behind the team ? if you went to an away game then you would see and hear a total backing of Moyes. Are they all totally clueless about football? Moyes is the manager of Everton and come next season he will still be the manager of Everton, so my guess is if you don?t like it ..!
For everyone on here saying Drenthe falls over too easily, well the only difference between him and Suarez is that Suarez falls, screams and hold his hand in the air as if it's a leg-breaker. And guess what: he does get the free kicks. Lesson there is, if you can't beat them...
We also play the wingers too far back; there is no use giving them the ball on the centre-line and expecting them to beat three men every time. Moyes won't let them go too far forward though so that's a no-brainer then.
Putting Fellaini up front when the only service is a punt from the back is an insult to the game at this level. If Cahill can't do it then take him off don't put him as midfield anchor.
Don't just play Osman or Neville cos you like loyalty and don't bring on Jagielka just because you feel you owe him game time.
Finally, how about having a midfielder who can shoot on target? Drenthe can but he is out wide. Fellaini and Rodwell couldn't score from distance with no keeper so for God's sake let's find someone who can shoot... Gibson, anyone?
We also play the wingers too far back; there is no use giving them the ball on the centre-line and expecting them to beat three men every time. Moyes won't let them go too far forward though so that's a no-brainer then.
Putting Fellaini up front when the only service is a punt from the back is an insult to the game at this level. If Cahill can't do it then take him off don't put him as midfield anchor.
Don't just play Osman or Neville cos you like loyalty and don't bring on Jagielka just because you feel you owe him game time.
Finally, how about having a midfielder who can shoot on target? Drenthe can but he is out wide. Fellaini and Rodwell couldn't score from distance with no keeper so for God's sake let's find someone who can shoot... Gibson, anyone?
What really annoyed me on Saturday was the commentators saying that Drenthe goes down at the first hint of contact and that is why he doesn't get the free kicks (penalties) that he deserves, yet McLean not only goes down at the first hint of contact, he went down when there was no contact at all and still got loads of free kicks.
@ Mike Gwyer #461
For a start, I don't slag off Everton ? don't make the stupid mistake of the other Moyesophiles in equating criticism of Davey Boy with lack of love for Everton. It is because I love Everton so much that I can't stand what this negative twat is doing to it. I reserve my criticism for the useless manager we have and the dross he has us playing.
I was most probably a regular a GP before you were even born; my first match was with my Grandfather, himself a life-long Blue, at the age of 7 in 1953. I even remember being in the Boys Pen but don't remember seeing Billy Liar there... I joined the Army at 18 and since then have only been back to Liverpool sporadically on family visits and always attended GP if there was a game there at that time.
While I lived in London, I tried to see Everton when they played there and I did live back in Liverpool from 1981 to 1983 and at that time went to most home games in the Gwladys St end. However, wherever I have traveled and lived ? be it Germany, Italy, Dallas and San Francisco, the Gulf, or my eight years in Botswana, or my current nine years in Thailand and Indonesia, or any of the other 93 countries on four Continents that I have either worked in or visited on business or pleasure ? I have always kept up with Everton, either on crackly fading BBC World Service broadcasts or as I do now on the internet and live on Television.
So I have every right to criticise when I see the tactically inept DROSS this Dour Defence-minded Jock has Everton playing week-in & week-out.
For a start, I don't slag off Everton ? don't make the stupid mistake of the other Moyesophiles in equating criticism of Davey Boy with lack of love for Everton. It is because I love Everton so much that I can't stand what this negative twat is doing to it. I reserve my criticism for the useless manager we have and the dross he has us playing.
I was most probably a regular a GP before you were even born; my first match was with my Grandfather, himself a life-long Blue, at the age of 7 in 1953. I even remember being in the Boys Pen but don't remember seeing Billy Liar there... I joined the Army at 18 and since then have only been back to Liverpool sporadically on family visits and always attended GP if there was a game there at that time.
While I lived in London, I tried to see Everton when they played there and I did live back in Liverpool from 1981 to 1983 and at that time went to most home games in the Gwladys St end. However, wherever I have traveled and lived ? be it Germany, Italy, Dallas and San Francisco, the Gulf, or my eight years in Botswana, or my current nine years in Thailand and Indonesia, or any of the other 93 countries on four Continents that I have either worked in or visited on business or pleasure ? I have always kept up with Everton, either on crackly fading BBC World Service broadcasts or as I do now on the internet and live on Television.
So I have every right to criticise when I see the tactically inept DROSS this Dour Defence-minded Jock has Everton playing week-in & week-out.
This is a really interesting conversation.
My two cents - as has been identified by one or two people earlier, for a long time there has been a big flaw in our gameplan which is our reliance on crosses from the wing. We very, very rarely attempt to play through the middle - whenever the ball gets near the 18 yard box, the immediate reaction is to look for a wide player to get it to, for a cross. You very rarely if ever see our players even look for a quick pass-and-move to create an opening. This has made us incredibly predictable. It can still be an effective strategy, especially when coupled with a strong defense and guys like Baines who can put in good crosses, but it's not flexible enough to consistently win games over a season. I also think other teams have figured out our reliance on late runs from midfield with this strategy, hence Cahill's decline in effectiveness.
I think the above strategy is definitely coached, and it needs to change. The fact the players are only looking to pass wide in attacking areas is clearly coached, and it goes back to Moyes' over-reliance on solid structure.
The reliance on crossing is also a reason why we hoof it from the back. Since we don't attempt to build attacks through the centre of the midfield, there's no less value in playing out from the back. Better to hoof it up, try to win a contested ball in a decent position, and the play it wide for a cross. Again, difficult to beat and often effective, but a nightmare to watch, overly-predictable, and too reliant on favourable bounces and good crosses to be consistently effective.
There was a good article a week or two ago about Redknapp and Moyes, saying both were good managers but desperately need to evolve to really get to the top level. Couldn't agree more, and I think the sooner Moyes adds some flexibility to his approach the better we will all be. Unfortunately I'm not sure it will happen - these days he is so preoccupied with his resource contraints and how he needs to make his team hard to beat above all that I'm not sure he will ever see the light. Maybe Swansea finishing above us for a year or two might do it.
My two cents - as has been identified by one or two people earlier, for a long time there has been a big flaw in our gameplan which is our reliance on crosses from the wing. We very, very rarely attempt to play through the middle - whenever the ball gets near the 18 yard box, the immediate reaction is to look for a wide player to get it to, for a cross. You very rarely if ever see our players even look for a quick pass-and-move to create an opening. This has made us incredibly predictable. It can still be an effective strategy, especially when coupled with a strong defense and guys like Baines who can put in good crosses, but it's not flexible enough to consistently win games over a season. I also think other teams have figured out our reliance on late runs from midfield with this strategy, hence Cahill's decline in effectiveness.
I think the above strategy is definitely coached, and it needs to change. The fact the players are only looking to pass wide in attacking areas is clearly coached, and it goes back to Moyes' over-reliance on solid structure.
The reliance on crossing is also a reason why we hoof it from the back. Since we don't attempt to build attacks through the centre of the midfield, there's no less value in playing out from the back. Better to hoof it up, try to win a contested ball in a decent position, and the play it wide for a cross. Again, difficult to beat and often effective, but a nightmare to watch, overly-predictable, and too reliant on favourable bounces and good crosses to be consistently effective.
There was a good article a week or two ago about Redknapp and Moyes, saying both were good managers but desperately need to evolve to really get to the top level. Couldn't agree more, and I think the sooner Moyes adds some flexibility to his approach the better we will all be. Unfortunately I'm not sure it will happen - these days he is so preoccupied with his resource contraints and how he needs to make his team hard to beat above all that I'm not sure he will ever see the light. Maybe Swansea finishing above us for a year or two might do it.
Mike.
I think you will find that EVERYONE at Goodison is behind the team at every match regardless. At away games the support is brilliant! However, that is besides the point. Go in to any ale house before or after the match regardless of the result and you will hear as much to use your words " slagging " as there is on here.
Mate, it's the nature of the game ? that's what footy is all about. That's what keeps it interesting. All the slagging and arguements is great and I'm afraid if you don't like it...!
I think you will find that EVERYONE at Goodison is behind the team at every match regardless. At away games the support is brilliant! However, that is besides the point. Go in to any ale house before or after the match regardless of the result and you will hear as much to use your words " slagging " as there is on here.
Mate, it's the nature of the game ? that's what footy is all about. That's what keeps it interesting. All the slagging and arguements is great and I'm afraid if you don't like it...!
Colin Ryan(320) id go along with that.
Lack of invention and looking wide to create?
We are always going to struggle as in the apparent 4-4-1 we play, we dont have the kind of player in the club who can link the mid and attack.
Cahill basically plays 2/3 touch if its in to feet, gets give and lays it off, were gonna get it wide for the crosses.
Noticed theres never any combination play with the main striker with Cahill?
Him and Saha looked like they'd never been introduced!! Different kind of player needed for different football. But to be that kind of "number 10" ball player you have got to be very good. Cahill was one of the best attacking mid goal threats in the division, it was justifiable. How much longer is debateable. For now moyes remains loyal, very loyal.
The other aspect is that, since Donovan departed, we badly lack the kind of player who can provide the cutting edge these wide tactics require. Donovan is not just a speed merchant, he is a very good all round footballer, full stop. Keeps possession, great crosser, knows when to hold and when to give (yes, you Royston) and a goal threat. Cracking player.
We dont have anything like that. Hes also too old to sign permanently. If we have anything dollar to play with in the summer i like Jarvis from Wolves. Pacey dangerous and a great croser with both feet, can go either side. Would provide the kind of variation we need. But this wide situation has needed addressing for years even when Piennar was here originally.
Currently we are back to the same problems as the last couple of years, a serious lack of penetration. Piennar brings increased ball retention and intelligence, but it actually doesnt solve the overall problem. Which is why we currently place all our chips on Drenthe for creativity.
Coleman is getting seriously found out this season and may benefit from a change to full back permanently, he just doesnt have the touch, control, vision or awareness for the position, and is very one dimensional. Can never knock his attitiude though.
He was just back from injury which is always tricky, but overall i dont think its harsh.
Ossie looked blatantly off the pace, clearly needs more games.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Lack of invention and looking wide to create?
We are always going to struggle as in the apparent 4-4-1 we play, we dont have the kind of player in the club who can link the mid and attack.
Cahill basically plays 2/3 touch if its in to feet, gets give and lays it off, were gonna get it wide for the crosses.
Noticed theres never any combination play with the main striker with Cahill?
Him and Saha looked like they'd never been introduced!! Different kind of player needed for different football. But to be that kind of "number 10" ball player you have got to be very good. Cahill was one of the best attacking mid goal threats in the division, it was justifiable. How much longer is debateable. For now moyes remains loyal, very loyal.
The other aspect is that, since Donovan departed, we badly lack the kind of player who can provide the cutting edge these wide tactics require. Donovan is not just a speed merchant, he is a very good all round footballer, full stop. Keeps possession, great crosser, knows when to hold and when to give (yes, you Royston) and a goal threat. Cracking player.
We dont have anything like that. Hes also too old to sign permanently. If we have anything dollar to play with in the summer i like Jarvis from Wolves. Pacey dangerous and a great croser with both feet, can go either side. Would provide the kind of variation we need. But this wide situation has needed addressing for years even when Piennar was here originally.
Currently we are back to the same problems as the last couple of years, a serious lack of penetration. Piennar brings increased ball retention and intelligence, but it actually doesnt solve the overall problem. Which is why we currently place all our chips on Drenthe for creativity.
Coleman is getting seriously found out this season and may benefit from a change to full back permanently, he just doesnt have the touch, control, vision or awareness for the position, and is very one dimensional. Can never knock his attitiude though.
He was just back from injury which is always tricky, but overall i dont think its harsh.
Ossie looked blatantly off the pace, clearly needs more games.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Poor tactics or poor quality. Nature or nurture. There is a great deal of evidence emerging that talent is developed and coached and is not innate. Take a read of books by Daniel Coyne (The Talent Code) and Matthew Syed (Bounce). Coyne's book also has an interesting analysis of how Brazilian football has developed and there is an interesting article on his website http://thetalentcode.com/2009/03/30/brazilian-soccer/
So to answer your question Tactics and coaching play a huge part in how Everton play football. I like the post by Matthew 469 & I agree with most of what he says. With regard to Moyes there is little to show that he will change the way that he wants the team to play and I personally have had enough of the dreary and negative football.
So to answer your question Tactics and coaching play a huge part in how Everton play football. I like the post by Matthew 469 & I agree with most of what he says. With regard to Moyes there is little to show that he will change the way that he wants the team to play and I personally have had enough of the dreary and negative football.
Bobby Thomas,
I agree with everything you said there except from the Jarvis from Wolves coment. I don't know much about him so I can't make an opinion. I've noticed for years how Cahill distributes the ball left to right and then runs into the box for a header. No link-up play; no creativity. I've thought for a long time that Cahill brings a scrappyness to the team and kills any kind of fluid football.
At the beginning of last season, I said that Coleman should start playing at right back and the response was the usual, "he's not ready". I thought he was good enough then and still do. The trouble is, when a young player makes a mistake, he is dropped... yet, when someone like Neville fucks up on a regular basis, he retains his position in the team, probably because he'll put in a leg-breaking challenge that will give Moyes a hard on.
If we had a decent right-winger, Coleman could make the right-back position his own, forge an understanding and make overlaping runs like what Pienaar and Baines used to do. It would give the opposition more to think about but obviously Coleman needs to be picked in the first place and be given time to understand it so that is a non-starter as Moyes's best mate likes to play there.
I agree with everything you said there except from the Jarvis from Wolves coment. I don't know much about him so I can't make an opinion. I've noticed for years how Cahill distributes the ball left to right and then runs into the box for a header. No link-up play; no creativity. I've thought for a long time that Cahill brings a scrappyness to the team and kills any kind of fluid football.
At the beginning of last season, I said that Coleman should start playing at right back and the response was the usual, "he's not ready". I thought he was good enough then and still do. The trouble is, when a young player makes a mistake, he is dropped... yet, when someone like Neville fucks up on a regular basis, he retains his position in the team, probably because he'll put in a leg-breaking challenge that will give Moyes a hard on.
If we had a decent right-winger, Coleman could make the right-back position his own, forge an understanding and make overlaping runs like what Pienaar and Baines used to do. It would give the opposition more to think about but obviously Coleman needs to be picked in the first place and be given time to understand it so that is a non-starter as Moyes's best mate likes to play there.
Steve (#463) when Drenthe dives, it doesn't matter that he doesn't scream like Suarez, he's still cheating.
To be fair, Moyes has only had 10 years to settle in and assess the style of play that Evertonians have historically craved and how best that may be achieved.
In the next decade of his tenure, I fully expect him to come out of his shell and his teams will be synonymous with flair and adventure.
(Sighs and slumps back into chair.)
Bob Paisley may not have been the most articulate man, add that to the fact that he worked for the enemy for many years at every level, and Evertonians (certainly the biased ones ) would be forgiven for not wanting to know or understand his philosophy ... But this man understood football, he knew the game inside out; sure he was a stickler for detail, but he knew the secret of getting a side to play good football. He kept the beautiful game simple:
"Get very good natural footballers" he would say, "ask them to do the simple things and their ability will do the rest"... was he over simplifying a complicated issue? We`ll he won just about everything there is to win.
Tactics are not about breaking stubborn teams down, you need ability to do that... and without that ability, the most innovative tactics will cut no ice.
Look no further than our current team.
On the left-hand side we have a natural footballer: Baines; on the right-hand side we have Neviile, a guy who through hard work and professionalism has made himself a living playing top class football.
Neville has been coached incessantly throughout his career, by the very best, but if you had to choose between him and Baines who was likely to unlock a defiant defence, who would it be? Yet both are playing under the same manager employing the same tactics.
Our team is littered with examples, Heitinga has ability to play out of defence; Jagielka will just hoof it. Seamus will run up and down the line all day long, but Drenthe (a tactical disaster) is more likely to do more in a heartbeat than the gutsy Seamus will do all game? Does anybody really think tactics are what stop Seamus dipping a shoulder, ghosting past a defender and putting in a peach of a cross? Do people honestly believe Jagielka and Heitinga are given different instructions?
Old Paisley was right: it's a simple game and if you can select naturally talented footballers (Rooney, RVP etc) they will instinctively do the right things.
Sorry but if you think a tactical switch will see Phil Neville suddenly start to pose the same sort of threat as Baines, you are kidding yourselves.
When Moyes had Donovan and Pienaar attacking the flanks, the tactics he employs worked then, did they not?
We are between a rock and a hard place. We don't have the talent of the top boys, yet we are respected enough to ensure managers (ALL of them) set the teams out to make it very difficult for us.
Tactics or ability? Bit of a no-brainer if you ask me ... bet Bob Paisley would have said the same too.
"Get very good natural footballers" he would say, "ask them to do the simple things and their ability will do the rest"... was he over simplifying a complicated issue? We`ll he won just about everything there is to win.
Tactics are not about breaking stubborn teams down, you need ability to do that... and without that ability, the most innovative tactics will cut no ice.
Look no further than our current team.
On the left-hand side we have a natural footballer: Baines; on the right-hand side we have Neviile, a guy who through hard work and professionalism has made himself a living playing top class football.
Neville has been coached incessantly throughout his career, by the very best, but if you had to choose between him and Baines who was likely to unlock a defiant defence, who would it be? Yet both are playing under the same manager employing the same tactics.
Our team is littered with examples, Heitinga has ability to play out of defence; Jagielka will just hoof it. Seamus will run up and down the line all day long, but Drenthe (a tactical disaster) is more likely to do more in a heartbeat than the gutsy Seamus will do all game? Does anybody really think tactics are what stop Seamus dipping a shoulder, ghosting past a defender and putting in a peach of a cross? Do people honestly believe Jagielka and Heitinga are given different instructions?
Old Paisley was right: it's a simple game and if you can select naturally talented footballers (Rooney, RVP etc) they will instinctively do the right things.
Sorry but if you think a tactical switch will see Phil Neville suddenly start to pose the same sort of threat as Baines, you are kidding yourselves.
When Moyes had Donovan and Pienaar attacking the flanks, the tactics he employs worked then, did they not?
We are between a rock and a hard place. We don't have the talent of the top boys, yet we are respected enough to ensure managers (ALL of them) set the teams out to make it very difficult for us.
Tactics or ability? Bit of a no-brainer if you ask me ... bet Bob Paisley would have said the same too.
Sunderland as yet have not mangaged a shot on goal, on or off target in 45 minutes against Blackburn tonight. Not that we can talk!
19 shots, 9 on target on Saturday I believe.
I think we're going to win.
I note the Yak was fed and thus did score. Only saying, like.........
Lionel Messi has just broken the all-time Barca scoring record. Yet another hat trick to bring his total to 234 - and he is only 24 yrs old. He has scored 18 goals in his last 4 games. He came through the Barca youth ranks. I wonder how he would have gotten on at Everton?
Probably score against Arsenal and be sold to Utd, Paul.
Dave (498) - Partly agree, partly disagree.
It's true that some players are inherently more skilled and athletic than others, and any team with more of those players is likely to win more often. Plenty of managers at big clubs have done very well by just getting the best attacking players they can in every position and sending them out there to cause havoc (del Bosque and Redknapp being two of the most obvious recent examples, Wenger is also somewhat in that camp though not as extreme).
But that isn't the only way to play the game, and plenty of other managers have done well with highly structured approaches, where players have very specific instructions on what to do in particular parts of the pitch. Moyes is a fairly extreme example of that, Mourinho is also similar though more balanced (and has had far more resources to deal with).
So no, a tactical switch isn't going to turn Neville into Baines. But it might turn talented but slightly limited guys like Fellaini and Cahill into more effective players, if they aren't given such strict instructions to look wide at every attacking opportunity.
Look at the way Swansea play - they've shown that a consistent focus on ball retention and a flexible attacking approach can be effective even with players of limited natural ability. I have to believe that adjustments to tactics are important, otherwise football is just a game of the richest teams putting the best players on the field, and I don't think that tells the whole story (even if it tells a lot of it).
It's true that some players are inherently more skilled and athletic than others, and any team with more of those players is likely to win more often. Plenty of managers at big clubs have done very well by just getting the best attacking players they can in every position and sending them out there to cause havoc (del Bosque and Redknapp being two of the most obvious recent examples, Wenger is also somewhat in that camp though not as extreme).
But that isn't the only way to play the game, and plenty of other managers have done well with highly structured approaches, where players have very specific instructions on what to do in particular parts of the pitch. Moyes is a fairly extreme example of that, Mourinho is also similar though more balanced (and has had far more resources to deal with).
So no, a tactical switch isn't going to turn Neville into Baines. But it might turn talented but slightly limited guys like Fellaini and Cahill into more effective players, if they aren't given such strict instructions to look wide at every attacking opportunity.
Look at the way Swansea play - they've shown that a consistent focus on ball retention and a flexible attacking approach can be effective even with players of limited natural ability. I have to believe that adjustments to tactics are important, otherwise football is just a game of the richest teams putting the best players on the field, and I don't think that tells the whole story (even if it tells a lot of it).
Peter Barry #468.
Hey it?s brilliant you?ve been around the world, here there and everywhere. It?s also great that your shelf life as Blue started in the 50s ? but really who gives a fuck. I?ve worked in London, Chicago and Frankfurt. I started going to the Park End in the 70s and got thrown into the paddocks when the big teams came and took the whole of the Park End. But that?s all history.
I?ve watched Kendall put together a championship winning team, but seen bigger crowds at Goodison when we were struggling in the 90s ? figure that one out. Though once again Peter, it?s all history. Everton for me is now and right now Moyes is the manager. You can moan all you want, oh! by the way you do a lot of it, but Moyes will still be the manager.
As I?ve have been told within this thread, we all have opinions, and yours is negative towards Moyes, and judging by about 70 percent of the posts so is everyone else ? so I just have to accept it? Do I fuck, for me Moyes is the best man out there. Bring up all your contenders ? hey even chuck in a couple of European managers for a laugh (like they would be interested with our transfer policy) and let?s see them cope with the expectations of Goodison, let?s see them get second rate players like Osman, Neville, Hibbert & Howard playing like Premier League players, week-in, week-out.
Hey it?s brilliant you?ve been around the world, here there and everywhere. It?s also great that your shelf life as Blue started in the 50s ? but really who gives a fuck. I?ve worked in London, Chicago and Frankfurt. I started going to the Park End in the 70s and got thrown into the paddocks when the big teams came and took the whole of the Park End. But that?s all history.
I?ve watched Kendall put together a championship winning team, but seen bigger crowds at Goodison when we were struggling in the 90s ? figure that one out. Though once again Peter, it?s all history. Everton for me is now and right now Moyes is the manager. You can moan all you want, oh! by the way you do a lot of it, but Moyes will still be the manager.
As I?ve have been told within this thread, we all have opinions, and yours is negative towards Moyes, and judging by about 70 percent of the posts so is everyone else ? so I just have to accept it? Do I fuck, for me Moyes is the best man out there. Bring up all your contenders ? hey even chuck in a couple of European managers for a laugh (like they would be interested with our transfer policy) and let?s see them cope with the expectations of Goodison, let?s see them get second rate players like Osman, Neville, Hibbert & Howard playing like Premier League players, week-in, week-out.
Just been talking to an Arsenal supporter who would have Moyes over there like a shot., he can't believe we want rid.
Matthew, would you say that Premier League teams approach games against Swansea in the same way they would approach a game against Everton? I would argue not.
Moyes has earned the respect through high finishes. City, Chelsea and Tottenham all played two defensive Midfield men against us recently. Man United actually stuck Rooney in front of their back four. Would any of them show that sort of respect to Swansea? I dont think so.
Like I say, I think we are between a rock and a hard place: we are treated as a top team, everyone plays a cagey game against us, but we don't have the players of a top team to break them down ? that's why nearly every game becomes a war of attrition.
Moyes is a victim of our own high finishes, it's a little one-eyed to suggest he is negative, given the way all the other teams have played at GP.
Let's see how Rodgers copes next season when other managers respect him and his team a little more. I`m betting right now that Swansea (and Rodgers) will drop next season.
Moyes has earned the respect through high finishes. City, Chelsea and Tottenham all played two defensive Midfield men against us recently. Man United actually stuck Rooney in front of their back four. Would any of them show that sort of respect to Swansea? I dont think so.
Like I say, I think we are between a rock and a hard place: we are treated as a top team, everyone plays a cagey game against us, but we don't have the players of a top team to break them down ? that's why nearly every game becomes a war of attrition.
Moyes is a victim of our own high finishes, it's a little one-eyed to suggest he is negative, given the way all the other teams have played at GP.
Let's see how Rodgers copes next season when other managers respect him and his team a little more. I`m betting right now that Swansea (and Rodgers) will drop next season.
Paul (514) ? We'd have been Championship contenders the last 3 years. Pienaar wouldn't have left and the money available to buy Landon.
Don't know about all those goals, since most opponents in La Liga amount to target practice. But he'd still have a ton of 'em by EPL standards.
If only.
Don't know about all those goals, since most opponents in La Liga amount to target practice. But he'd still have a ton of 'em by EPL standards.
If only.
Steve, a lot of people say that. I have a mate whos a Bolton fan who calls me an idiot for any bad word about Moyes. Ask him how many Everton games he has watched. Its all just media influence. I wouldnt mind having Wenger playing youngsters all over the pitch, but he splits the Arsenal 'no trophy in 6 years' brigade.
Paul Watson
I think if he had come through the Everton ranks he would currently be the best player in the world, and would be playing for either Man Utd, Barca or Real Madrid, who bought him for a lot (but nowhere near enough) of money after ~ 2 seasons of playing for Everton. Not dissimilar to another one of the worlds best players.
I think if he had come through the Everton ranks he would currently be the best player in the world, and would be playing for either Man Utd, Barca or Real Madrid, who bought him for a lot (but nowhere near enough) of money after ~ 2 seasons of playing for Everton. Not dissimilar to another one of the worlds best players.
Mike Gwyer, I reckon my views would be pretty much the opposite of yours but that was one cracking post." -so I just have to accept it? Do I fuck...." Best post for a long time. Err.. you're wrong.by the way.
Dave Wilson,
Them players you mention,who haven`t got the basic required ability to pass a ball effectively.
Who brought them into the club?
Them players you mention,who haven`t got the basic required ability to pass a ball effectively.
Who brought them into the club?
Dave what the hell have you been smoking?!
Who the hell treats us as a top team?! We win ugly and we lose ugly and that is the fine line Moyes will always tread with his tactics. Yes we beat spurs and city but they could quite easily have been lost. Any side knows if you score first against us 99% of the time you are guaranteed points.
Swansea have comfortably beat premier league teams which is some achievement from a promoted side. When was the last time we beat someone 3-0 comfortably ?
Who the hell treats us as a top team?! We win ugly and we lose ugly and that is the fine line Moyes will always tread with his tactics. Yes we beat spurs and city but they could quite easily have been lost. Any side knows if you score first against us 99% of the time you are guaranteed points.
Swansea have comfortably beat premier league teams which is some achievement from a promoted side. When was the last time we beat someone 3-0 comfortably ?
Dave - Just to clarify that I wasn't saying Moyes is negative. Being highly structured in your approach, and building from a solid defense, isn't the same as being negative overall.
Having said that, while it wasn't my point I do think there have been times when he has had us playing somewhat negative football, at least in the sense of discouraging an open attacking passing game. eg Last season he had Arteta playing far too deep to be effective (as they player himself said), which made us a very one-dimensional and often 'negative' side. The current focus on crosses isn't negative, so much as just rigid and in my opinion slightly misguided, even if I can understand the reasons behind it (being that Cahill and Fellaini aren't the most effective at using one-twos to create chances, and both are good in the air).
I do agree to some extent that other teams also often play very carefully against us - they know we will work hard and be tough to break down, and can hit them from a set piece or a cross if they're not well set up defensively. But I also think that our predictability probably makes us too easy to prepare for.
It's true that Swansea have been unknown quantity for a lot of this season, which has let them take some teams by surprise. But I also think their approach is inherently more flexible and therefore less predictable than ours - eg you know exactly how Barcelona are going to play ever game, but good luck countering it - not only are their players excellent at what they do, but their attacking approach offers a lot of different and unpredictable threats, unlike ours. The same is true of Swansea (and Tottenham, and Arsenal, and other good sides), though obviously Swansea's players aren't in Barcelona's league in terms of skill or speed. Personally I think that as long as Rogers keeps his squad together his team should continue to do well.
Having said that, while it wasn't my point I do think there have been times when he has had us playing somewhat negative football, at least in the sense of discouraging an open attacking passing game. eg Last season he had Arteta playing far too deep to be effective (as they player himself said), which made us a very one-dimensional and often 'negative' side. The current focus on crosses isn't negative, so much as just rigid and in my opinion slightly misguided, even if I can understand the reasons behind it (being that Cahill and Fellaini aren't the most effective at using one-twos to create chances, and both are good in the air).
I do agree to some extent that other teams also often play very carefully against us - they know we will work hard and be tough to break down, and can hit them from a set piece or a cross if they're not well set up defensively. But I also think that our predictability probably makes us too easy to prepare for.
It's true that Swansea have been unknown quantity for a lot of this season, which has let them take some teams by surprise. But I also think their approach is inherently more flexible and therefore less predictable than ours - eg you know exactly how Barcelona are going to play ever game, but good luck countering it - not only are their players excellent at what they do, but their attacking approach offers a lot of different and unpredictable threats, unlike ours. The same is true of Swansea (and Tottenham, and Arsenal, and other good sides), though obviously Swansea's players aren't in Barcelona's league in terms of skill or speed. Personally I think that as long as Rogers keeps his squad together his team should continue to do well.
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311 Posted 19/03/2012 at 13:29:32
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I'd be interested to see during Moyes's spell in charge how many games we've won by more than 1 goal. (Perhaps Luke O'Farrell could look in to that?)
The fact is, if we don't keep a clean sheet, we rarely win. Moyes's game plan is to keep a clean sheet. So, if we concede early, all of the preparation for that game goes out of the window. The whole team mentality and the whole way the team is set up is for a one-nil win. We looked clueless on Saturday trying to get the second goal, hence why we ended up with so many aimless hoofs into the box.
Moyes's answer was to put Fellaini up front. I'd be interested if ToffeeWeb ran a poll, how many of us would rate Fellaini as a striker? Just more fucking garbage from Moyes in a big game. At least we're close to the 40-point mark so in his mind it will have been another successful season.