Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Cup Winners
59 Comments: I saw this comment from the BBC, and he put down this list of previous winners during Moyes's reign:
Year - PL / FA / League Cup
2011 - United / City / Birmingham
2010 - Chelsea / Chelsea / United
2009 - United / Chelsea / United
2008 - United / Portsmouth / Spurs
2007 - United / Chelsea / Chelsea
2006 - Chelsea / Liverpool / United
2005 - Chelsea / Arsenal / Chelsea
2004 - Arsenal / United / Middlesbrough
2003 - United / Arsenal / Liverpool
2002 - Arsenal / Arsenal / Blackburn
So, 20%, maybe 25% of them teams were considered worse than us on paper in those years. It just puts some things in perspective, because it shows the dominance of the old top 4, then City and Spurs are coming in whilst Liverpool and maybe a few others are going back down.
Just to me, the 'no trophy' argument is still a bit valid, but it's less so because that shows it was, and still is, very difficult for us to win a trophy. Our history, as prestigious as it is, doesn't give us any right to win anything, it's all a money game now.
Look at Forest, Leeds etc to prove that.
I mean, I remember the 2009 final clearly. We were absolutely mauled by Chelsea. Cole and Malouda (who were their best players in that game) were on their left, established, proven international players, and we had Osman and Hibbert on the right, good experienced Prem players, but one played out of position and the other just a good defender. Nothing amazingly special.
That just sums it up to me.
Ben Jones, Posted 20/03/2012 at 00:52:13
Comments
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Who's said they hate it Barry? Don't go making things up to suit your argument will you. Not sure if it was yourself who made the point in another thread but I replied saying, promoted teams often, as Norwich are also, doing well in their debut season. It was Martinez who implemented that style of play Swansea exhibit and look where he is now.
Whether fans want him to stay or be gone, there's one thing they can all agree on I'm sure and that is he can be his own worse enemy at time and yes cedes the initiative.
I'm waiting for that moment when he realises this, and I'm sure the Liverpool reaction would have got his attention. Whether it makes a difference I don't know.
Whether fans want him to stay or be gone, there's one thing they can all agree on I'm sure and that is he can be his own worse enemy at time and yes cedes the initiative.
I'm waiting for that moment when he realises this, and I'm sure the Liverpool reaction would have got his attention. Whether it makes a difference I don't know.
"I'm waiting for that moment when he realises this, and I'm sure the Liverpool reaction would have got his attention."
---------------------------
What makes you think the derby reaction got his attention?
The fact that he said his team selection was right? the fact that he said he would do exactly the same thing again?
What on earth gives you any indication that this man is capable of being reactive to the fans' concerns?
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What makes you think the derby reaction got his attention?
The fact that he said his team selection was right? the fact that he said he would do exactly the same thing again?
What on earth gives you any indication that this man is capable of being reactive to the fans' concerns?
Nick
"hate it" is shorthand really, the continued promotion of Moyes and his method by ridiculing others at clubs nowhere near the stature of EFC is crap.
Nobody knows what would happen if a Rodgers or Martinez came, sneering at managers who try better football Mowbray, Martinez, Holloway, Coyle and Rodgers ignores their bravery, their clubs are/were relegation fodder by default we are mediocre by design.
"hate it" is shorthand really, the continued promotion of Moyes and his method by ridiculing others at clubs nowhere near the stature of EFC is crap.
Nobody knows what would happen if a Rodgers or Martinez came, sneering at managers who try better football Mowbray, Martinez, Holloway, Coyle and Rodgers ignores their bravery, their clubs are/were relegation fodder by default we are mediocre by design.
Well we'll win the FA Cup this season so there's no problem!
Ben,
I'd love to see a list of the teams that have knocked us out of cup competitions so we could decide whether we have under performed in the cups or not.
I'm too lazy to compile it myself but I suspect we have done.
The article itself reads like a we cant win, don't bother trying type thing. Perhaps I've misread it?
Nothing worth having comes easily, especially in sport, but the best team doesn't always win. Sometimes desire, effort and will to win can make a team greater than the sum of it's parts, just sometimes.
I'd love to see a list of the teams that have knocked us out of cup competitions so we could decide whether we have under performed in the cups or not.
I'm too lazy to compile it myself but I suspect we have done.
The article itself reads like a we cant win, don't bother trying type thing. Perhaps I've misread it?
Nothing worth having comes easily, especially in sport, but the best team doesn't always win. Sometimes desire, effort and will to win can make a team greater than the sum of it's parts, just sometimes.
Ben, you were wrong to say Chelseas Cole and Malouda bettered Osman and Hibbert.
I have strong memories of that debacle plus the video.
Hibbo had to cope on his own because Osman was totally invisible.
I might add that Osman in his supposedly best position of centre mid was invisible for most of the Sunderland game.
I have strong memories of that debacle plus the video.
Hibbo had to cope on his own because Osman was totally invisible.
I might add that Osman in his supposedly best position of centre mid was invisible for most of the Sunderland game.
"Sometimes desire, effort and will to win can make a team greater...
Nah, Steven, listen to the realists...it's all about having a billionaire owner
{sarc/off} - bollocks! I'm with you, mate, all the way
Nah, Steven, listen to the realists...it's all about having a billionaire owner
{sarc/off} - bollocks! I'm with you, mate, all the way
I thought Osman had a good first half vs Sunderland.
It was hard for him to get into the game in the second half as the ball kept sailing over the midfield due to too many long balls.
It was hard for him to get into the game in the second half as the ball kept sailing over the midfield due to too many long balls.
Moyes himself said he didn't take the Cup competitions to seriously earlier in his Everton career.
His main aim was the P.L and forty points, every season. This is obviously the reason for the dire early season shite I watch every year. His mindset is one of survival then see where we go from there - not my opinion, Moyes has quoted this line in numerous interveiws.
I do think we had some really bad luck before the final against Chelsea though, we lost Jagielka, Arteta and Yakubu, all were playing well before long term injury, so I forgive him that defeat.
He has been far too loyal to the likes of Hibbert & Osman though, he could have traded these players a got a couple of million for Osman at least.
The only players Moyes seem to fall out with are Strikers, he always keeps his yes-men and willing runners, who will play in numerous positions. The trouble is, Hibbert, Osman, Cahill, and now Jagielka look like they will retire at the club. Not the progressive plan of a winner. More like the plan of a survivor.
His main aim was the P.L and forty points, every season. This is obviously the reason for the dire early season shite I watch every year. His mindset is one of survival then see where we go from there - not my opinion, Moyes has quoted this line in numerous interveiws.
I do think we had some really bad luck before the final against Chelsea though, we lost Jagielka, Arteta and Yakubu, all were playing well before long term injury, so I forgive him that defeat.
He has been far too loyal to the likes of Hibbert & Osman though, he could have traded these players a got a couple of million for Osman at least.
The only players Moyes seem to fall out with are Strikers, he always keeps his yes-men and willing runners, who will play in numerous positions. The trouble is, Hibbert, Osman, Cahill, and now Jagielka look like they will retire at the club. Not the progressive plan of a winner. More like the plan of a survivor.
This ridiculing of other managers is not so, Barry.
Its a ridiculing of those who promote flavours of the month above Moyes when all they've shown is how to get a team promoted, and then all the clamour dies away when they end back in the Championship.
Its a ridiculing of those who promote flavours of the month above Moyes when all they've shown is how to get a team promoted, and then all the clamour dies away when they end back in the Championship.
Nick,
Sometimes a fella will get a mention who hasn't done much but characterizing everybody mentioned as flavour of the month is bollocks.
The three normally dismissed with this tag are Rodgers, Holloway and Martinez. All three have got achievements that can be compared to Moyes in some way.
Most haven't had 10 years to build a team to finish above Moyes.
Sometimes a fella will get a mention who hasn't done much but characterizing everybody mentioned as flavour of the month is bollocks.
The three normally dismissed with this tag are Rodgers, Holloway and Martinez. All three have got achievements that can be compared to Moyes in some way.
Most haven't had 10 years to build a team to finish above Moyes.
I don't know why people get excited about managers like Rogers, Lambert, etc.
Once they have kept their team in the PL for at least 3 or 4 seasons and are still playing this wonderful, attacking football then that is when they have proved themselves.
So far all we've seen is one good season in the PL at best. Some have been relegated and some are still just scrapping to avoid relegation.
If Moyes does go, I would much prefer to see us appoint a younger manager than a washed-up one. But that doesn't mean we have to bang on about these young managers as though they have already shown how great they are. Because they haven't.
Once they have kept their team in the PL for at least 3 or 4 seasons and are still playing this wonderful, attacking football then that is when they have proved themselves.
So far all we've seen is one good season in the PL at best. Some have been relegated and some are still just scrapping to avoid relegation.
If Moyes does go, I would much prefer to see us appoint a younger manager than a washed-up one. But that doesn't mean we have to bang on about these young managers as though they have already shown how great they are. Because they haven't.
"Most haven't had 10 years to build a team to finish above Moyes." - Because they either get relegated, sacked or leave to go to a different club
Moyes got 8 years to build a team, and had 2 seeing it dismantled and not replenished.
How many times would Kenwright have been well within his rights to sack Moyes, Tony?
I can't think of a manager who would be allowed to finish 17th with a club our size and keep his job.
The comparison's aren't fair either way, it seems like most won't acknowledge that.
I can't think of a manager who would be allowed to finish 17th with a club our size and keep his job.
The comparison's aren't fair either way, it seems like most won't acknowledge that.
Ciaran - 420 - You say..
"The fact that he said his team selection was right? the fact that he said he would do exactly the same thing again?"
To be fair to him, he DID seem to have a change of heart and decided to..er..blame the Premier league (for 'letting themselves down' - !?)
"The fact that he said his team selection was right? the fact that he said he would do exactly the same thing again?"
To be fair to him, he DID seem to have a change of heart and decided to..er..blame the Premier league (for 'letting themselves down' - !?)
Moyes didn't really have a decent team until 2007 and he lost 2 rocks of the team that year Lescott and Arteta was never the same. My problem with Moyes is his diabolical record against teams like Liverpool and Arsenal. We're guaranteed to lose these 2 most seasons despite the fact neither have been that good recently.
Moyes has won four derby games in 10 years, he's reached the final of the FA Cup in 2009 which was an acheivement. Moyes has the ability of be a great manager yet he always seems to bottle it. If he could get back to the way he was from 2007 to 2009 we'd be good again.
He needs to send the players out with no fear like he used to do. Remember Fiorentina 2008, Alkmaar 2007, Chelsea away 2009, Liverpool 2009, Arsenal 2010. He can play good football and can easily get results against Liverpool if he wanted success enough.
Moyes has won four derby games in 10 years, he's reached the final of the FA Cup in 2009 which was an acheivement. Moyes has the ability of be a great manager yet he always seems to bottle it. If he could get back to the way he was from 2007 to 2009 we'd be good again.
He needs to send the players out with no fear like he used to do. Remember Fiorentina 2008, Alkmaar 2007, Chelsea away 2009, Liverpool 2009, Arsenal 2010. He can play good football and can easily get results against Liverpool if he wanted success enough.
Take away the League Cup - does anyone even try to win it until at least the quarters?
And the picture is a more sobering, but accurate picture of the English game.
2011 United / City
2010 - Chelsea / Chelsea
2009 - United / Chelsea
2008 - United / Portsmouth
2007 - United / Chelsea
2006 - Chelsea / Liverpool
2005 - Chelsea / Arsenal
2004 - Arsenal / United
2003 - United / Arsenal
2002 - Arsenal / Arsenal
And ours is the best League in the world?
And the picture is a more sobering, but accurate picture of the English game.
2011 United / City
2010 - Chelsea / Chelsea
2009 - United / Chelsea
2008 - United / Portsmouth
2007 - United / Chelsea
2006 - Chelsea / Liverpool
2005 - Chelsea / Arsenal
2004 - Arsenal / United
2003 - United / Arsenal
2002 - Arsenal / Arsenal
And ours is the best League in the world?
And bear in mind, Pompey were cheating, buying players they did not have the money for. Practically financial steroids.
Our best football under Moyes has been after qualifying in Europe. It gave a lesson in how to play the game, and we need to get back to it. Only wins against Sunderland and then Liverpool will do it. Or do I have to write the Shite? Is it house style?
I reckon that will need Barkley; even if that is pressure on young shoulders; he needs to get used to it. No Pienaar, no Donovan, and we are a shadow the team that started winning in January.
Our best football under Moyes has been after qualifying in Europe. It gave a lesson in how to play the game, and we need to get back to it. Only wins against Sunderland and then Liverpool will do it. Or do I have to write the Shite? Is it house style?
I reckon that will need Barkley; even if that is pressure on young shoulders; he needs to get used to it. No Pienaar, no Donovan, and we are a shadow the team that started winning in January.
Roberto what pisses most of is the loses in the cup especially at home. Reading, Birmingham, Oldham, Blackburn and not forgetting Shrewsbury away.
But the worse cup defeat for me was Tranmere at home I know it was under Smith, but that still fucking hurts.
But the worse cup defeat for me was Tranmere at home I know it was under Smith, but that still fucking hurts.
Mick, Dead right that was a killer. What amazes me is, whether it's cup or league, when we lose we get these pricks coming out with all the apologies. Even last week and Saturday we had these arseholes coming out telling us "we know we didn't play to our potential", "we need the supporters behind us", "we have to do better in the replay" etc etc etc.
We know they were absolute shite! We don't need them to tell us! We just need them to do something about it!!!
We know they were absolute shite! We don't need them to tell us! We just need them to do something about it!!!
Agree John wish to fuck they would do there talking on the pitch were it matters
Tranmere at home - bloody hell, I'd forgotten that.
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I could not f-reaking believe it. But it is also a remeninder of where we were under Smith. I remember we improved for a couple of months afterwards. But the next year was dire, and I don't think I went home (Birkenhead) for a year thru utter shame.
We need to look at getting attackers again. We have little money, so Davey seems to think getting quality only allows for defence: look at who we buy, Jags £4 m, Baines £5 m, Distin and Heitinga £6 m each, Lescott £ 5 m. I wonder whether we rarely look/get creative players or forwards, 'cos they're so pricey - Yak £11 m.
Hope Bily has not put us off looking for another. I'd sell Yobo and Anichebe to get Pienaar back; and get someone on the right and another striker - Jelavic looks a good start - but not enough. Means we will have to sell someone: Probably one of Heitinga, Jags, Felli, Rodwell. (please not Baines!!!)
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I could not f-reaking believe it. But it is also a remeninder of where we were under Smith. I remember we improved for a couple of months afterwards. But the next year was dire, and I don't think I went home (Birkenhead) for a year thru utter shame.
We need to look at getting attackers again. We have little money, so Davey seems to think getting quality only allows for defence: look at who we buy, Jags £4 m, Baines £5 m, Distin and Heitinga £6 m each, Lescott £ 5 m. I wonder whether we rarely look/get creative players or forwards, 'cos they're so pricey - Yak £11 m.
Hope Bily has not put us off looking for another. I'd sell Yobo and Anichebe to get Pienaar back; and get someone on the right and another striker - Jelavic looks a good start - but not enough. Means we will have to sell someone: Probably one of Heitinga, Jags, Felli, Rodwell. (please not Baines!!!)
Bottom line is that if you're not one of the better financed teams then it's pretty tough to win a cup. I think moyes has mostly concentrated on the league and has mostly done a good job. He does it with a very unappealing brand of football and an inflexible tactical approach but it has worked. The same approach has failed in the cup.
Dick Fearon @430
You're right, Dick, Osman was missing for most of the game, but let's not forget Howard Dickhead Webb, he doesn't always use his middle name, who booked Hibbert after 8 mins for a nothing tackle and Hibbert was shit scared of making a challenge after that which resulted in his eventual subbing for Jacobsen at half time. If ever a ref toadied up to a Sky 4 team...
And we were also missing the spine of the team, Jags, Arteta and the Yak, I wonder if they would have made a difference. Damn right they would.
You're right, Dick, Osman was missing for most of the game, but let's not forget Howard Dickhead Webb, he doesn't always use his middle name, who booked Hibbert after 8 mins for a nothing tackle and Hibbert was shit scared of making a challenge after that which resulted in his eventual subbing for Jacobsen at half time. If ever a ref toadied up to a Sky 4 team...
And we were also missing the spine of the team, Jags, Arteta and the Yak, I wonder if they would have made a difference. Damn right they would.
Roberto - you are getting there - "the Shite" or even "Red Shite" is fine with all us Evertonians. You carry on learning and writing, son - good job.
Ive seen this table before. It makes for depressing reading.
Only five of the available thirty domestic trophies have been won by teams outside of the money elite (i include Spurs 2008 Carling cup as this happened before they started spending). Even worse, four of the five were league/carling cup wins when the 'best' teams often play their second string.
Basically this means if the elite teams are prepared to play their best 11 the rest have virtually no chance of winning anything. What chance has Moyes, or anyone else.
How different it was in more competitive times pre 1995 when so many more teams won trophies..
I
Only five of the available thirty domestic trophies have been won by teams outside of the money elite (i include Spurs 2008 Carling cup as this happened before they started spending). Even worse, four of the five were league/carling cup wins when the 'best' teams often play their second string.
Basically this means if the elite teams are prepared to play their best 11 the rest have virtually no chance of winning anything. What chance has Moyes, or anyone else.
How different it was in more competitive times pre 1995 when so many more teams won trophies..
I
How can anyone suggest Moyes doesnt get the best out of his teams over a season?
We can chew the fat all day about his approach and whether we should play a different style, its hard to argue with the claim that we dont entertain..... but Moyes is consistently the best of the rest. Shit though that is, noone has brocken through the glass ceiling without cash.
Despite our weaknesses or how ugly we are, Moyes gets us higher than anyone other than money teams. We know that winning a trophy is near impossible, so what else is there to do?
I like the way Swansea play their game, but to use them as an example of how we should play after not much more than half a season doesnt make sense. We heard this last season about Blackppol, and other teams have good periods and the more short sighted pluck these as further examples. Good luck to Rogers, Id love to see Swansea do well, but the norm for all these teams is shiny periods with eventual abject failure.,
We can chew the fat all day about his approach and whether we should play a different style, its hard to argue with the claim that we dont entertain..... but Moyes is consistently the best of the rest. Shit though that is, noone has brocken through the glass ceiling without cash.
Despite our weaknesses or how ugly we are, Moyes gets us higher than anyone other than money teams. We know that winning a trophy is near impossible, so what else is there to do?
I like the way Swansea play their game, but to use them as an example of how we should play after not much more than half a season doesnt make sense. We heard this last season about Blackppol, and other teams have good periods and the more short sighted pluck these as further examples. Good luck to Rogers, Id love to see Swansea do well, but the norm for all these teams is shiny periods with eventual abject failure.,
Roberto, 'financial steroids' love it.
David Moyes has the opportunity of a lifetime over the next two months. We are unlikely to qualify for Europe via the League, equally unlikely to be troubled by relegation fears.
So, David, get to the magical 40 points mark and approach 3 FA Cup ties with total attacking intent. Go for it. Dare you.
So, David, get to the magical 40 points mark and approach 3 FA Cup ties with total attacking intent. Go for it. Dare you.
I still wonder how people can point the finger solely at Osman for the 2009 FA Cup Final defeat. Cahill and Neville were treated with utter contempt by a Chelsea midfield who for long periods enjoyed almost total possesion.
These were our international superstars, but I have yet to see two such prominent players get so comprehensively outplayed in a major final.
We are a better team than Sunderland; I think we`ll beat them... put it this way: if we can't get past them we don't deserve to be in the semi-final.
These were our international superstars, but I have yet to see two such prominent players get so comprehensively outplayed in a major final.
We are a better team than Sunderland; I think we`ll beat them... put it this way: if we can't get past them we don't deserve to be in the semi-final.
Here you are Stephen, all the teams who have knocked Everton out of the cup under Moyes courtesy of the excellent site Everton Results.
League Cup FA Cup
Chelsea Shrewsbury
Middlesbrough Fulham
Arsenal Man Utd
Middlesbrough Chelsea
Arsenal Blackburn
Chelsea Oldham
Blackburn Chelsea
Spurs Birmingham
Brentford Reading
Chelsea
Goes without saying that we owe Chelsea big time.
League Cup FA Cup
Chelsea Shrewsbury
Middlesbrough Fulham
Arsenal Man Utd
Middlesbrough Chelsea
Arsenal Blackburn
Chelsea Oldham
Blackburn Chelsea
Spurs Birmingham
Brentford Reading
Chelsea
Goes without saying that we owe Chelsea big time.
Ben,
I get your point but what have Forest or Leeds ever done to be compared with Everton.
Even Chelsea, Spurs and Man City are playing catch up with our historical achievements.
In fact before Kenwright joined the board we had won as many league championships as United.
I get your point but what have Forest or Leeds ever done to be compared with Everton.
Even Chelsea, Spurs and Man City are playing catch up with our historical achievements.
In fact before Kenwright joined the board we had won as many league championships as United.
Roberto, the defenders you mention are all at least twice the price of our 2 best attacking players over the last few years, Pienaar and Arteta. They are out there
Jay, how old are you? Look up Leeds and Forrest's histories. I don't think he's making a direct comparison but its a closer one than you would imagine.
Nick, Everton 9 Championships, Leeds 3, Forest 1. That's the comparison. Don't see what age has to do with it.
Leeds had an amazing decade from 65 through to 75, 3 league titles, five 2nds. An FA Cup win and runners up. A League Cup win, a Charity Shield. A European Cup final they were screwed out of, and a ECWC final. Two Uefa Cup titles and another runner-up.
Forest, back-to-back European cup finals, four League Cups, Super Cup winners and more European finals.
People say we don't do long periods of success but these teams under Revie and Clough did. They may not add up to our total domestic success, but Ben's point is valid as it's based on great deeds of the past.
Forest, back-to-back European cup finals, four League Cups, Super Cup winners and more European finals.
People say we don't do long periods of success but these teams under Revie and Clough did. They may not add up to our total domestic success, but Ben's point is valid as it's based on great deeds of the past.
Nick, name me the three seasons 60-75 when Leeds won 3 titles. You can't because they didn't - 68-69, 73-74 and.......?
If you are going to do us down, at least do your research properly.
If you are going to do us down, at least do your research properly.
Moyes cannot motivate a team for a one off game where he has no option other than go for a result.
I hate them, but you have got to hand it to them, the shite are great at it and no manager was more able to do it than Benitez.
I hate them, but you have got to hand it to them, the shite are great at it and no manager was more able to do it than Benitez.
Woops. Still, their European record pisses all over our historic success of 85. Point stands, 2 titles or three in Revie's era makes no difference.
I'm no Moyes lover or hater; in all fairness, he's done a good job under very trying circumstances, ie, been hung out to dry by them clowns in the boardroom. So it does my head in when people come on and it's "Ooh, Brendan Rogers" this, "Ooh, Paul Lambert" that, "Ooh Ian Holloway" the other...
The truth is not one of them three could hold a light to Moyes. It's not even up for debate. Let's see where the likes of them three are in 3 or 4 years and then I might listen. To hear some people, you'd think Rogers was the saviour of the game...
Whisper it quietly but didn't Reading get shot? Oh, I forgot: no-ones mentioned old nonce features, Brian McDermot, have they???
ps: Ronnie Moore has started well over the water.
The truth is not one of them three could hold a light to Moyes. It's not even up for debate. Let's see where the likes of them three are in 3 or 4 years and then I might listen. To hear some people, you'd think Rogers was the saviour of the game...
Whisper it quietly but didn't Reading get shot? Oh, I forgot: no-ones mentioned old nonce features, Brian McDermot, have they???
ps: Ronnie Moore has started well over the water.
Leeds are a tiny club compared to Everton...... record average attendance is approx 39k..... ours is over 50k. Look at how many times they have won the league. Tranmere have probably played them as much as we have! No comparison.... Revie was Redknapp with knobs on.
Nick, so Leeds have a history. Remember the game in Paris, they were robbed. They also enjoyed a brief flirtation with history as we did in those mid eighties days. "pisses all over" is harsh.
Equally our fans who quote some phrase from some distant past (NSNO) need to realise that realty is that many clubs have enjoyed glory (Forest, Derby) but that does not give us a devine right to think we are even a big club or have any rights to sit at the top table.
We had a period which I and many enjoyed, the world has moved on, the pecking order changed, our challenge is to fight for our right to be at the top and not assume we have a right to be there.
For what it is worth I will be there in the hope/dream that one day we can be back on that pedestal. Maybe pointless but despite all the issues, I have to have a reason to follow my love.
Thanks for reading
Equally our fans who quote some phrase from some distant past (NSNO) need to realise that realty is that many clubs have enjoyed glory (Forest, Derby) but that does not give us a devine right to think we are even a big club or have any rights to sit at the top table.
We had a period which I and many enjoyed, the world has moved on, the pecking order changed, our challenge is to fight for our right to be at the top and not assume we have a right to be there.
For what it is worth I will be there in the hope/dream that one day we can be back on that pedestal. Maybe pointless but despite all the issues, I have to have a reason to follow my love.
Thanks for reading
Nick, I'll be charitable and assume you are being deliberately provocative (rather an infantile trait, but there you go) in saying that anything 'pisses on' our 1984-85 season. As I recall, we won the title and a European trophy in the same season. Remind me again when Leeds achieved a Championship and a European trophy in the same season? Ah, yes again; you can't because they didn't.
Many clubs can pick eras when they had a semblance of success, eg, Leeds, Forest, Portsmouth, Ipswich etc etc... Unfortunately, judging by the media and a few of the brainwashed EFC fans, it seems that football only started with the Premier League... this always annoys me and it's making stats suit whatever argument you have.
BEFORE the Premier League:
We had won as many titles as Man Utd never mind Leeds Utd.
It's just a question at wherever you want to create a starting point when talking history.
The media has made out Man Utd as the supreme team, but they have also suffered relegation during their history.
In fact the only team that has never been relegated is Arsenal but they never won promotion to the First Division... they were elected!!
Although I have always been a staunch Evertonian I am also unbiased and can face facts. To my mind, Liverpool's dominance for decades was more praiseworthy than anything Man Utd have achieved because Liverpool did it with home-born players, all from the UK. During the period before the influx of foreign mercenaries the league was much harder to win as most teams had a level playing field and money did not dominate as much as today.
The media has always championed Man Utd and the London clubs because that is where the national papers are printed. When Everton were winning cups and titles, we were called the Mersey Millionnaires because of Mr Moores.... now the favoured clubs are doing the title-winning they are spoken of as great.
Without foreign stars, I am certain that Everton and Liverpool would be out doing the rest especially Chelski who were always the joke team of London before Abramovich came along. I just wish that the media spoke of football as having been thriving BEFORE the Premier League.
BEFORE the Premier League:
We had won as many titles as Man Utd never mind Leeds Utd.
It's just a question at wherever you want to create a starting point when talking history.
The media has made out Man Utd as the supreme team, but they have also suffered relegation during their history.
In fact the only team that has never been relegated is Arsenal but they never won promotion to the First Division... they were elected!!
Although I have always been a staunch Evertonian I am also unbiased and can face facts. To my mind, Liverpool's dominance for decades was more praiseworthy than anything Man Utd have achieved because Liverpool did it with home-born players, all from the UK. During the period before the influx of foreign mercenaries the league was much harder to win as most teams had a level playing field and money did not dominate as much as today.
The media has always championed Man Utd and the London clubs because that is where the national papers are printed. When Everton were winning cups and titles, we were called the Mersey Millionnaires because of Mr Moores.... now the favoured clubs are doing the title-winning they are spoken of as great.
Without foreign stars, I am certain that Everton and Liverpool would be out doing the rest especially Chelski who were always the joke team of London before Abramovich came along. I just wish that the media spoke of football as having been thriving BEFORE the Premier League.
Dick #430, and if I remember right Hibbert had just come back from a lay off through injury so wasn't fully fit?
Kevin #434, can you provide us with some links to the offers that were made for Hibbert or Osman?
Even rumours of other clubs interest?
Even rumours of other clubs interest?
We must stop this rose tinted look back at our history to somehow justify why we should be successful. We must also stop comparing EFC with Leeds and Forest from the 60s and 70s. The Premier League changed everything and the correct comparison is who has done what since the EPL started.
I've given Moyes the benefit of the doubt for many years despite some desperate performances that had to be laid at his door. I know the risk of changing Moyes but tbh I'd sooner see the Tea Lady in charge if she could stop this dreadful hoof ball.
I can't see how we can win tonight.
I've given Moyes the benefit of the doubt for many years despite some desperate performances that had to be laid at his door. I know the risk of changing Moyes but tbh I'd sooner see the Tea Lady in charge if she could stop this dreadful hoof ball.
I can't see how we can win tonight.
In ten years, Moyes has built a team on the back of the Rooney and Lescott money, plus Uncle Bill found money for the Yak and Fellaini. We have a half-decent keeper and a solid defense capable of defending like the Alamo.
Last season, we were supposed to make a push for the top 4 and the wheels fell off so, instead of saying "fuck it, we need to freshen up with new faces", he does nothing other than become more dreary and depressed with a "couldn't really give a fuck" attitude.
Going to Anfield and surrendering was the final straw. Ten years... some murderers get out after seven.
Last season, we were supposed to make a push for the top 4 and the wheels fell off so, instead of saying "fuck it, we need to freshen up with new faces", he does nothing other than become more dreary and depressed with a "couldn't really give a fuck" attitude.
Going to Anfield and surrendering was the final straw. Ten years... some murderers get out after seven.
We must do the exact opposite of what 'Martin' suggests.
We should always keep the images of the club as a leading light and innovator in the game at the forefront of our mind and never settle for anything less.
Whether it takes 5 or 50 years we should never stop aiming to be the best. Settling for anything less than the being the best doesn't just go against the essence of sport, it goes against everything this club was built on.
It's unrealistic for me to expect us to win the league next year but what can we do in 10 years if we lay foundations now?
NSNO
We should always keep the images of the club as a leading light and innovator in the game at the forefront of our mind and never settle for anything less.
Whether it takes 5 or 50 years we should never stop aiming to be the best. Settling for anything less than the being the best doesn't just go against the essence of sport, it goes against everything this club was built on.
It's unrealistic for me to expect us to win the league next year but what can we do in 10 years if we lay foundations now?
NSNO
Martin, if you take out your last line, and Stephen if you take out your first and then put your two posts together it reads rather well.
Maybe you're opinions aren't as different as they may seem.
Maybe you're opinions aren't as different as they may seem.
Mike,
They are completely opposite statements.
One suggests that there is no way we can win a game of football and we should ignore everything prior to 1992.
The other states you should 'know yer history' and aim to live up to or surpass it.
If theres any other opinions you want me to remove from my posts just give me a buzz.
They are completely opposite statements.
One suggests that there is no way we can win a game of football and we should ignore everything prior to 1992.
The other states you should 'know yer history' and aim to live up to or surpass it.
If theres any other opinions you want me to remove from my posts just give me a buzz.
How much income does our previous League and cup triumphs generate at the moment? Why should we expect success because we were once succesful and Tranmere Rovers not because they haven't been? It's like believing Britain should be great again because we once had an empire?
We are now a small club financially and that is all that matters. What foundations would you like to lay now Stephen to give us a chance of league honours in 10 years. The difference between us is small, I want Everton to win things but realistically expect them not to. You expect them to win things because we were once successful. It has no logic surely?
We are now a small club financially and that is all that matters. What foundations would you like to lay now Stephen to give us a chance of league honours in 10 years. The difference between us is small, I want Everton to win things but realistically expect them not to. You expect them to win things because we were once successful. It has no logic surely?
Ian, it looks like we agree.
Jay wanted to know why the OP was comparing us to Leeds in that no one has a right to win trophies. Leeds are a good example as they have a big history. What's the problem?
They're not equal with our history, and Jay used the word 'compared' but they do have a suitable trophy winning history to make that point worthwhile.
Brian, you keep coming back with ever reducing returns. Championship and Euro title in the same season... well, there you go then. No, they're not us but you seem to have gone off on a tangent.
Now leave me alone before I start doing a Ciarán...
Jay wanted to know why the OP was comparing us to Leeds in that no one has a right to win trophies. Leeds are a good example as they have a big history. What's the problem?
They're not equal with our history, and Jay used the word 'compared' but they do have a suitable trophy winning history to make that point worthwhile.
Brian, you keep coming back with ever reducing returns. Championship and Euro title in the same season... well, there you go then. No, they're not us but you seem to have gone off on a tangent.
Now leave me alone before I start doing a Ciarán...
Past achievements do generate income..... that is why our income dwarfs say tranmeres (and most other clubs) It was these achievements that helped create the fanbase that directly feeds that income. A fanbase that would be the envy of many of the neuvo rich. There is a diference between expectation and aspiration......... but the only thing smalltime about this club are the charlatans pretending to be a board. They have invested and delivered nothing..... the consequences are a club treading water at best, and fighting off administration at worst. I have zero expectations with this lot and the walk away fans indicates I'm probably not alone. The club aspires to mediocrity and achieves it despite the rudderless ship strategy....
"Now leave me alone before I start doing a Ciarán..."
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Asking questions people avoid like the plague???
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Asking questions people avoid like the plague???
Martin,
Possible foundations that could be laid to enhance the possibility of future success have been laid out to you on here time and time again, by people far more articulate than me.
I won't make the mistake of wasting my time debating them with you.
Possible foundations that could be laid to enhance the possibility of future success have been laid out to you on here time and time again, by people far more articulate than me.
I won't make the mistake of wasting my time debating them with you.
Jay,
They're both big clubs with a good history. They're comparable to us. I would say Everton are of course bigger, but Forest and Leeds are certainly big enough to be in the Prem, thats all I'm saying.
Stephen,
Fair point with our performance, I do think we have under acheived in the cups. But thats not the point. Its to do with winning it. And looking at the winners, who the majority are better than us on paper, the argument of Moyes not winning a trophy certainly looks less valid.
They're both big clubs with a good history. They're comparable to us. I would say Everton are of course bigger, but Forest and Leeds are certainly big enough to be in the Prem, thats all I'm saying.
Stephen,
Fair point with our performance, I do think we have under acheived in the cups. But thats not the point. Its to do with winning it. And looking at the winners, who the majority are better than us on paper, the argument of Moyes not winning a trophy certainly looks less valid.
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415 Posted 20/03/2012 at 07:25:39
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As much as Moyes devotees hate it Swansea and Brendan Rogers philosophy show there is another way to survive, and so little resource have they it's rumoured they pay wages in leeks and lava bread.