I certainly don't think Spurs, Chelsea, City and definitely Man utd, come to Goodison Park to set up their stalls and stop Everton playing.

Absolutely spot on Dave, what did he conjure in two games against us? Nothing. Probably the worst negative team to visit Goodison this season. Moyes sat Cahill on Britten and they had no answer, no plan B and subs too late in the game that had no effect.

Also, he's not had to deal with things that affect long term managers in the Premier League: What if the big boys come in and dismantle his team? What if 6 of his starting 11 are out injured for most of next season? Only then will we see what sort of manager he is rather than hailing him the Everton manager elect for one decent season in the Premier League.

Ashley Williams played the most long passes out of any outfield player in the Premier league on Saturday; Moyes disrupted their rhythm and forced them into long balls and we easily beat them. Tactical superiority from Moyes who showed that attacking and just going for it against absolutely everyone doesn't always win you the game.

After all this is what Man Utd did to us earlier in the season, sat back let us have all of the ball and nicked one and came away with 3 points. Spurs and City went for it against us and went home with nothing.

Brendan Rogers joins a long list of alternative managers that some who want Moyes out, put forward as a cheap replacement after they've won half a dozen Premier League games.

After a couple of seasons they sink back into obscurity; there'll be another one along next season... my guess it will be Brian McDermott of Reading.

Rodgers was a disaster at Reading in case anybody has forgotten. Martinez and De Sousa set up the Swansea way of playing that Rodgers was ordered to copy by the Swansea chairman on giving him the job.

Martinez has not exactly torn up trees at Wigan though and for every win at Anfield there has been a 9-0 defeat at Spurs so not really sure about him.

These managers who people put forward as replacements for Moyes, such as Rodgers and Lambert, are doing very good jobs at their respective clubs. However, it genuinely makes me laugh that anyone can believe they are suddenly superior to a man who has done what they are doing now consistently for the last 10 years actually better! As in keep a team in the top end of the so-called best league in the world year-in, year-out with little expenditure and few so-called stars. We have a bloody good manager already, we don't need another; we just need some money.

There's no point telling us you think somethings been 'put to bed', then failing to explain why.

It was one game ? it hardly makes Moyes a master tactician or Rodgers clueless.

Pointless crowing.

It's been a common theme on TW to name one manager or another as a better prospect than Moyes or someone we should aspire to. Usually this is based on a good period of form or are only ever a reflection based on short periods in a season.

The fact is there isn't a manager in the Premier League, based on results over a long period who can touch Moyes. The numerous examples of 'better' manager all fade, without exception.

Moyes was asked about Rodgers yesterday and his praise was glowing. We shouldn't base our view of Swansea on the two games we beat them. They're trying to do something quite different to other promoted teams. Moyes then said that the Premier League "pats you on the back then moves on. You've got to do it season after season".

This is where our man excels. We can criticise him all we want for individual games, seemingly odd decisions, overusing spent players, and the Anfield mess was just awful. But over a season and over the years he gets the job done like no-one else. Picking on individual games is pretty pointless because every manager has poor days. The fact is, in truth, Moyes has less than most, and considerably less than anyone outside of the money elite.

I've never read anyone here say "I don't care about the result, I just want us to play more attacking football." If they did, you just couldn't argue with it. But if you want results over a season, over five seasons or whatever, then there is no-one better. No-one gets more bang for their buck.

I'm not going to agree with sections of this post as it's comparing oranges with apples: Brendan Rodgers or any other of the labelled "flavour of the month" managers don't and most likely won't get the unique opportunity that Moyes has which is a 10-year shot at great salary to keep the club in the league and not a dicky bird about not actually winning anything.

Managers come and go, and so will Moyes at some point; waxing lyrical over his achievements is just as stupid as the comparisons and claims that are made, find another manager who has done the same ? highly unlikely. Almost as ludicrous as the choice of title, what myth exactly?

Assessing Moyes's performance over time is hardly stupid. Quite the opposite cos good league positions season on season are as good an indication as anything about a manager's ability.

If you make statements like that, you could at least attempt to back them up,

Also you miss the point ? Moyes has been here for 10 years precisely because he performs well season after season. The others... well they just don't.

Did Swansea have two England Internationals in their defence? Did they have a £15m midfielder to bring on as as a sub? How many World Cup finalists did they have on their bench? Has he had 10 years experience in the PL? has he just spent £7m on a striker?

Finally, is he on £3m a year?

Brendan Rodgers has brought Swansea up into the PL and currently sit 1 point behind us. They have an inferior side to us but yet still play reasonably decent football whilst they have accumulated a decent points tally to date. He has managed to get Swansea to this position in his first full season whereas Moyes after 10 years is currently sitting within Everton in mid table. Rodgers is learning his trade, Moyes isn't. time will tell I guess because Rodgers has to prove it like Moyes over the years, but if Rodgers can do what he is doing with Swansea in his first full season imagine what and where he would be after 10 seasons.

So we have taken 6 points of Swansea, that doesn't make Rodgers an Inept manager, Dogliesh has taken 6 points of us, does that make him a tactial genius??? no neither if Moyes.

Dave, I agree with your post that it is nonsense to view managers who experience quick success as who we want at Goodison. All logic tells us that the man we need will have experience down the leagues, been employed in the Premier League for a number of years, made some mistakes, done some good things, had European experience, managed some big players and big matches. David Moyes is the template for that person.

But, and it is big but, we should expect that person to evolve, to learn from errors, to show some spirit of adventure. Those are the big question marks that hang over him.

Personally, I believe he could become a great manager if he can get a trophy under his belt, but to do that he is going to have to take a chance, go for it. He has the chance to start that on Tuesday. Will he rise to it? Good luck to him, the team and the travelling 6,000.

'Did Swansea have two England Internationals in their defence? Did they have a £15m midfielder to bring on as as a sub? How many World Cup finalists did they have on their bench?'

But we should beat Man Utd and City away, right?

I wonder what the odds of Rodgers getting Swansea into the top 4 in the next few seasons are? People use mangers' records of getting teams promoted from the Championship against Moyes but how many of them have cracked the top 4? Why would anyone's record in the championship matter when it comes to managing Everton?

By getting into the top four and regular European competition, Moyes has achieved more than Rodgers has by leading them out of the Championship. Yes, they're just behind us because we've had one of our worst seasons in a long while and they've had one of their best, that's no indication that next season we won't be a lot better whilst Swansea struggle. That's if Rodgers hasn't thrown his toys out the pram by that point.

I'm one who respects and appreciates Moyes for the way he has conducted himself at Everton since he arrived 10 years ago. He's done well, but not good enough for me and needs to move on.

This is not a knee-jerk reaction to the very poor performances dished up by our beloved team for the majority of this season, culminating in the shocker against Liverpool.

Rather, Moyes is now stale and has come to the end of the road as far as Everton is concerned, and needs to move on to both advance his personal career and more importantly, to enable Everton to move on.

Paradoxically, he joined us as one of those managers without a Premier League pedigree, who (according to many of the arguments put forward on TW) would never get a chance to manage us today! No experience, won nothing of note, and will surely fade away after a couple of decent seasons!

Moyes and Everton at a crossroads. He has been a safe pair of hands for us for a decade now and has rightly been praised for continuing to steer us to top-half finishes when our resources have been significantly weaker than say the top 4 or 5 clubs. He's had more than many other clubs though.

But what does he have to actually show for his time at Everton? For me, it is trophies and style of play that mark success, not just mid-table mediocrity. Judged by my criteria, then the answer is nothing.

The greatest achievement of Moyes's time was to steer us to fourth place in the 2004-05 season, above Liverpool in the league table for the one and only time since he has been in charge. But even this achievement was overshadowed by the buggers winning the Champions League, while our campaign ended in disaster following a defeat by Villarreal. This and an FA Cup final appearance are the only "successes" since Moyes arrived at the Mecca.

This brings me to the biggest disappointment I can remember since I began supporting Everton: the capitulation against Liverpool last week. This alone should be enough to end his reign.

Once again, people can argue about how handicapped he is by his lack of financial muscle. However, we were on a good run by this season's standard and had found a way to grind out wins. We had just outworked Manchester City, Chelsea and Tottenham at Goodison Park, but were a pathetic mess at Anfield.

How does someone with the perceived tactical acumen of Moyes allow his side to fall to the heaviest defeat suffered by any Premier League club at Anfield this season? This is a very average Liverpool team who have NOW done the double over us with a five-goal-to-nil aggregate. No he's a good manager, but the reputation he's built up isn't supported by his work.

How is it he can get decent performances from the players against the bigger spenders in the league but consistently fails to beat the poorer sides or to get us to perform from the beginning of a season?

Year after year, we are consistently useless in the first few months. That's what stops us achieving more, not the lack of resources. Net-spends, small transfer budgets, an old stadium ? none of those things explain why we have to fight an uphill battle each year because of our inability to start the season in anything other than reverse gear!

So, as I mentioned earlier, he's a decent bloke, a good manager and has attracted much praise for his work 'against the odds'. Let him move on and manage at a higher level if any of the bigger clubs will have him. I don't think any of the big clubs will take him on for the reasons I've cited above.

He has to win us the FA Cup this season. What an interesting predicament for the pro- and anti-Moyes brigade!!

Dave, I don't advocate Brendan Rodgers as Everton manager but, 10 years ago, I wouldn't have been calling for David Moyes either. Moyes was a gamble which pretty much paid off. When he goes, his replacement will be a gamble.

Unfortunately, his replacement will come to a club which is, off field, much worse than 10years ago.

To hear some people, you'd think Rodgers was the saviour of the game... but that doesn't make Moyes some kind of genius because we've beaten them twice. This season has been a fucking disaster, culminating in some of the worst football we've had dished up to us for years... and the March 13th debacle being the icing on a very bad cake.

Yes, Swansea have done well but the acid test comes next season when teams have got them worked out. Anyone remember George "Manager of the Year"" Burley? What's he doing now???

"After looking at Swansea for half-an-hour, Moyes set about dismantling them.

Substitutions, Tactics, selections ... everything. Make no mistake, Moyes took Rodgers to school yesterday."

Oh, c'mon. It was a pleasing result made sweeter by the manner of the second half display, but to claim Rodgers was 'schooled' by Moyes is taking things a bit too far. Swansea were poor and their manager admitted they'd had an off day. It happens. Everton have certainly had their fair share this season.

Up until Baines buried that beauty of a free kick into the top corner both teams had been awful. That crucial breakthrough wasn't made thanks to some managerial master stroke by Moyes or some blunderfuck by Brendan Rodgers. It was simply a moment of class by Baines.

Similarly, I find it unlikely that Pienaar played out of his skin because he'd been studiously perusing some DM designed tatical blueprint scrawled in crayon in Steve Round's 'special' note book and shoved in front of his face until he got the fucking message. He's just a very good player, a player a class above anyone Swansea have got in their squad, and he had one of those days where most things he tried paid off.

Now I'm not some big Brendan Rodgers fan, but to suggest that he and Swansea have merely 'done okay' this season, is simply churlish.  They've exceeded all expectations and entertained along the way. The fact they were shit yesterday and Everton beat them does not lessen their achievements up to this point. It does not demonstrate that Rodgers is overhyped/overrated or prove that Moyes is some sort of LMA Lex Luthor. 

To talk like Moyes offered Rodgers outside, stuck the nut on him and booted him all over the backstreet until his bloody, burst, bollocks were hanging out of his nostrils is just blowing things out of all proportion and comes across as a needlessly desperate attempt at point scoring in Moyes's favour. Why? He got the only points that matter. 

Karl (#536) ? Sorry but you are wrong in your inference that Rodgers only plays that way because of the Swansea chairman. He has a very distinct football philosophy and is very single-minded in pursuing it. An example of this would be the signing of his goalkeeper, Michel Vorm. He signed him specifically because of his ability to distribute the ball.

That is his great strength but his weakness at the present is adapting his tactics when his style of play isn't working. We saw that against Everton. It has also been apparent when they have played Norwich. In those games Paul Lambert has changed his tactics and Rodgers hasn't had an answer. The result being Norwich beating them both home and away.

Rodgers may improve this aspect of his management. Obviously it is early days for him and he is still learning. I disagree that he has just done okay. That's pretty patronising. He has got a small club with limited resources promoted into the Premier League playing a very good brand of football. That is more than Moyes achieved with Preston.

In addition to that, they have comfortably survived in the Premier League and played some excellent football. They have even managed to pass Arsenal off the field which is not an easy task. So I think so far he has done an excellent job. As has Paul Lambert with Norwich.

Moyes has also done a good job with Everton but his limitations as a manager are there to see. He has struggled to get a team to play consistently well over the course of a season. He struggles to play against teams that sit back and defend, he is very reactive in his tactics. He is also a negative and defensive manager.

His high point at Everton was undoubtedly 2004-05 season but that was a long time ago. I really hope that we can win the FA Cup this season but Moyes is going to have to take some chances and be brave if we are going to do that.

Kevin Tully, I'm afraid I'll have to point you in the direction of the "money spent" league tables, as I did to somebody who tried to make a similar point yesterday.

Between 2003 and 2011, Everton have spent an average of £1.9 million a season: http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/2003-2011.html

Between 2006 and 2011, we've spent an average of £1.8 million a season: http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/2006-2011.html

So the argument that Moyes has somehow had extravagant amounts of money to spend is simply ludicrous, especially when Swansea have only spent a few hundred grand less per season on average than we have!

And the fact that we have 2 England internationals in our defence is hardly a stick to beat Moyes with: neither was an England international before they worked under David Moyes.

And Kunai Desai, you've unravelled your own argument by citing the fact that Rodgers is still learning his trade as evidence he is a better manager than Moyes. By your logic, we should look back to when Moyes was learning his trade ... I dunno, maybe the year when we finished 4th in the league with a team that should rightly have been in the bottom 4 or 5.

John Daley is right: one result doesn't prove that Rodgers is shit or that Moyes is great. But 10 years of consistently finishing in the top 7 ? at an (unfortunately) unfashionable club and on a budget that puts us in the bottom 4 or 5 ? can't be ignored.

Rodgers has done well in his first season in the Prem with what he has at hand ? much like what Jewell did at Wigan and Brown at Hull ? but it is unlikely to carry over to next season. Howeverm, it's unfair to compare him to Moyes in any way.

Moyes has won nothing in 10 years and it is likely he will win nothing in the next 10 years at Goodison if the financial situation remains. Having said that, Redshite and Dalglish spent £100 million and have only 2 points more than the Blues at the current time.

Oh, okay then... they won the Mickey Mouse Cup but the Prem is the true test of a good team and, when all is said and done, even with big financing, Moyes may still have a team worthy of only mid table.

Kevin Tully wrote

Did Swansea have two England Internationals in their defence? Did they have a £15m midfielder to bring on as as a sub? How many World Cup finalists did they have on their bench? Has he had 10 years experience in the PL? has he just spent £7m on a striker?

Who bought these players on a net spend of 2.2 million pound a season? Even the harshest critics would have to admit that is astounding business.

We had fuck all in terms of players been worth anything on the pitch before Moyes came.

A sublimely taken free kick and a toe poke from close range are hardly the result of supreme tactics and astute substitutions , aside from thaose two moments we were average at best

Paul #571,

I take it you are referring to net spend.

Does it take into account that you sell a player for £22m and get to spend that money on other players?

Jelavic alone nearly cost as much as they entire Swansea team so we should be beating them! Get real Dave though it's been a poor season! It's about time we started winning! Swansea on the other hand were supposed to be whipping boys! Rogers has worked miracles there and should Moyes leave we would be very lucky to have him.

You usually like to champion managers on a shoestring so I'm surprised by your logic with this piece surely we should be beating them given our "net spend" compared to theirs. ; )

And dogleash hasn't just spunked £35m on Carroll because he got £50m for Torres.

Stop talking nonsense.

At the Liberty Stadium Everton played what was commonly known as a professional performance; we drew their sting, nullified it (apart from Howard wandering across his goal a couple of times), and then struck and played like a present day Man Utd. The only negative yesterday is we never scored more goals our exciting ATTACKING play deserved.

We did what quite a few other teams haven't done and prevented them from playing, and then took over the game, if we play like that on Tuesday, we will have another Wembley day out to look forward to.

Moyes has limitations, we all know that, and I still haven't forgiven him for his mental relapse against Lverpool, but his limitations are largely to do with the limitations imposed on him by the inactivity of our board.

£1.8 to £2.2M spent per season is the reason why Moyes and Everton has limitations, that is a net spend of a lower Championship club, not someone supposedly challenging for Europe every season, you have to take that into consideration when judging matters.

So, lighten up, fellow blues... things could be worse: we could have spent £113M and only won 5 home games whilst losing at home to Wigan.

How about next seasons candidates of Moyes replacements??

We've been through Holloway, Lambert, Coyle, Rodgers, CLOUGH!!?

So how about Poyet, Houghton, Nigel Adkins anyone??

Holloway has to be the worst I've read on here. Yes, they played attacking football but they had nothing to lose that season; make a few friends and have a go. Managing a team like Everton with the high expectations of the fans and the rich history of the club is on a totally different level.

We have far more to lose.

Moyes surely has his eye on the Spurs job... we got the 40 points as he took the shackles off and the team went for it. Yes, they played really well for the last 30 minutes and could have got 5.

For the most part of the season, it's been about preserving Premier League status and then saying, "Fuck it, let's have a crack at the FA Cup." We have a very good squad of players and some useful youngsters coming through. Moyes proved he can put out a team that can attack and play the football required by the likes of Spurs and Chelsea and a team with a hard to beat mentality.

We need another 3-4 quality players to fill the spots currently occupied by the old stagers: Hibbert, Osman, Cahill, and Neville can best be described as squad players and second choice. Barkley has to come in if he is any good, Rodwell has to step up and we need a playmaker in the Arteta mould.

If Moyes stays, he will have to wheel and deal in the market. We need to be more competitive with the top 8 teams and start getting results at places we have failed to in the last 10+ years.

Expect Everton to be on show now that we are safe and I'm prepared to give Moyes the benefit if we can get to Wembley twice and bring home the pot.

It's true; when David Moyes joined us, he was indeed a "flavour of the month" manager himself ? the Brendan Rodgers of 2002 if you like... but circumstances have changed; we no longer need to "gamble" on potential.

Ten years ago, we were staring relegation in the face, there seemed no way out, and the dice simply had to be thrown.

As somebody else said, Moyes will eventually go. Personally, I believe it will be sooner rather than later... but, although the climb back up the mountain has been painfullly long, we are now re-established as a top half team, not one fighting for its very existance (on the field at least).

The post was not an excuse to bash Rodgers (I actually like him and wanted to be kind to him); it's about looking for a guy we KNOW can handle the pressures of managing a club of our stature and expectations.

Rodgers may even be ahead of where Moyes was at this stage of his career, but I saw enough on Saturday to tell me he ain't there yet, nowhere near. I'm staggered that people who have dismissed the money argument all season now want to use it as an excuse.

Of course, there are no guarantees, but Everton FC pay enough to get a manager who is likely to improve on what David Moyes has done. Why on earth should we take a punt on a guy who one day maybe, possibly... might?

I admire the way their players play with the ball. I admire the way the club is set-up and they seem to have a plan that will see them develop into a steady premier league club.

IMO only a small part of that is down to Rodgers. It was Martinez that built the club's ethos and put the coaching hours in.

I personally wouldn't be going for him if we were looking for a manager for that reason.

I wouldn't go for Martinez either. He favours a flowing passing game, which is admirable, but he refuses to adapt to his circumstances.

Wigan have he worst pitch in probably the top two divisions. They play at least 19 games a season on it. That puts them at an instant disadvantage to the rest of the league. I think this is a large reason to why they struggle so badly.

He should see that and adapt his team to the most likely to get results. A more direct style is a must on such a stinking pitch.

That said, I think he'd do well with our players on our carpet.

Us beating them doesn't automatically make Moyes a better manager than Rodgers just as Warnock isn't automatically better than Moyes.

"Of course, there are no guarantees, but Everton FC pay enough to get a manager who is likely to improve on what David Moyes has done. Why on earth should we take a punt on a guy who one day maybe, possibly... might?"

Dave, you are half right, but who with any pedigree who is worth what Moyes is on, would come with no money to spend? Isnt it starange how when the so called 'best' managers in the world are moving clubs, they all want hundreds of millions to spend when they arrive? Surely they could walk into any team and improve what they already have at the new club if they are so good? So we would still need to take a gamble on potential should we be looking for a new manager.

Most peoples bug bear with Moyes is the style of play, inabilty to start a season when everyone else does, and also to beat the teams we should be beating, rather than just raising our game to stick two fingers up at the big boys with their money.

If Moyes left tomorrow, the best hope we would have is either a Lambert or a Rodgers who have built themselves some sort of reputation and now want to prove themselves at a bigger club, or god help us a Mark Hughes whose reputation is being dismantled by the day and is desperate to re establish himself. I reckon the best we could do right now is Martin Jol.

What I would love to see is Hodgson come to Everton and do a good job. This is guy is a quality coach and the reason it all went wrong across the park was because Stevie Me and all of his prima donna mates thought they were a bunch of billy big boots and too good to play for the likes of him.

Two words...Mike Walker

Yes Dave Moyes got it spot on against Swansea but also got it badly wrong against the red shite which was turned into a even worse decision by failing to beat a average Sunderland side in the Cup.

This win at Swansea as good as it was will not make up for Moyes mistakes if we fail to beat Sunderland in the replay. Lets be honest here after the poor displays against the shite and Sunderland and the huff and puff of the second half against Arsenal a performance and result were due.

The other area of concern for me is Howards failure to command his six yard box never mind full area, him being glued to the goalline will cost us. The annoying thing for me is that Howard is a talented goal keeper who could become one of the best in Europe if he showed more confidence in dealing with things in his penalty area.

"He has managed to get Swansea to this position in his first full season whereas Moyes after 10 years is currently sitting within Everton in mid table." Kunal, he is being praised and lauded for this whilst our manager, and rightly so, is being denigrated for this.

One is having the season of their life, the other is having a mare, but the one having a mare is still above the Heir Apparent and still in with a shout of Wembley.

Rodgers has actually been "managing" since 1995, that's a lot of learning to go through.

Tony, he only managed kids and reserves until 2008, hardly comparable.

Billy Liar

Some Evertonians just don't like Moyes for whatever strange reason - could be his miserable demeaner and the fact you probably would feel awkward having a pint with him, and this thread is not going to change anyone's mind.

Yet it still astounds me how he gets so much criticism. The anti-Moyes parade do not have a single plausable argument worth listening to - he consistently overachieves without hardly any net investment, he has picked out some astonishing talent and either nurtured them on sold them on at a massive profit, and everyone in the media who knows anything about football (and even those that don't), can't praise him highly enough. But thats probably just some extravagant game that every single pundit and football expert is playing to wind up toffeewebbers.

So what are you going to throw back at me? The game against Liverpool? The heavy defeats to Arsenal, Bolton and the like over the years? Well that doesn't wash because the argument above says that all managers (even Rodgers) have bad games.

Maybe you will throw the dour boring football? Name one team above us in the league who consistenly play better football and spend less? Maybe Arsenal, ok name another one??? 2nd out of 92 isn't bad.

Maybe you could use the gone stale argument? Where is the proof that Moyes has gone stale and not the investment (or lack of) into the club. Some people argue he has lost his enthusiasm since 2009. I think he was just as dour and miserable in 2004 after losing 7-0 to Arsenal having just qualified for the Champions League, the guy just doesn't like losing.

Perhaps you could use the falling out with players argument? If that is the case then why do so many players talk about his excellent man management and mentoring (See Tim Howard, Phil Neville and Tim Cahill for starters). I can imagine his style is probably a bit 'my way or the highway' but most great managers have an element of that (Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho instantly spring to mind), but this is just a style of management. If he was more laissez faire and let players express themselves, we'd win 4-3 one week and lose 6-2 the next (In fact didn't that happen when he first took over in 2002?).

The anti-Kenwright, or the investment lobbying groups do have a much stronger argument, and investment is what we so desparately need, not a change in manager.

Support the team, support Moyes, and instead channel your anger towards the lack of investment.

OK, Steve, I'll bite.

"We are looking up. When you get to 40 points, you can start looking up at what you can achieve."

Is this Lambert? Is this Rodgers? Is this a newly promoted team?

No, this is a safety first manager who's sole aim is 40 points, and avoid relegation.

I think we are better than that, and should be aiming higher. I also believe Moyes will never change, and neither will the football, because we are just happy to be in the PL.

Believe me, I have watched some boring shitty games this season freezing my nuts off.

Hooooofffffffffffffffffff!!!!

"The anti-Moyes parade do not have a single plausable argument worth listening to."

Why bother coming on for a debate then?

Kevin,

No they would probably say "'IF' we can get to 40 points, we have had an incredible season and belied all expectations".

"When" is a lot more certain.

Stephen, very good point, my sole aim was to shut the constant whiners up, don't think its going to happen though.

Steve,

When the highlight of your insight is to claim most dislike him because he'd be "awkward to have a pint with" you'd be lucky to shut anybody up.

BTW, as one of the 'parade' I'd be quite happy to go for a pint with him, he's got a lot of qualities I admire in a man/friend, just a few of the ones I admire in a football manager are missing.

Steve, how about the poor starts season after season. A problem that just has not been dealt with and which simply can't be explained by lack of cash.

Tim Howard, Tim Cahill and Phil Neville speak so highly of him (and it is usually only them), because they know that if they were at most, if not any other Premier League team, they would have been sat getting splinters on the bench for the past 2 years, not have nailed on places in the first 11 regardless of form.

How about never won away at the the old "top four" after 10 YEARS of trying?

It's not that I think he is a bad manager, I just don't think we will ever improve, surely 10 years is long enough to shape a team?

"The anti-Moyes parade do not have a single plausable argument worth listening to "
--------------

You obviously missed the Liverpool match... and the Man City match... and the... ahhh nevermind.

Steve Smith, the reason that there is so much debate about David Moyes on these pages is that both sides have decent enough arguements. He has done alright with not a lot of money. He has beaten some very good teams, but, he has bored the fans shitless most of the time, and has also lost to a lot of rubbish teams!

Brendan Rodgers is not quite there yet, he needs 2-3 more years in the P.L.

It is lame to NOT want things to change.
10 years is long enough.
Moyes needs to go after this season is over.
Some fresh blood might do this club good.

By the way, us not having money is bull.
We have players to sell, and we can use that money to build a new side.
It is time players such as Neville are sold.
Rodwell or Jagielka are good sales prospects.
We have enough defenders already. Plus Rodwell is a defender, not a midfielder so we might as well sell him.
We need wingers and creative midfielders more then we need defenders.

Moyes loves them though.

Stephen (709) Well said ? I've met him on several occasions and I think he's a genuine, nice fella with a self-deprecating sense of humour.

Mr Smith ? you may see, not hear, next season of "a single plausable argument worth listening to" - empty seats.

Every week, now, there are spaces and I see different people on a match to match basis taking up what were, up to last season, season ticket-holders seats; good specs too, no obstructed views in the Lower Gwladys.

You just knew this kind of thread would appear if we beat Swansea. People basing their argument that Moyes is a better manager on two games and not how well Rogers has got his team playing ALL season... One half decent game and Moyes is the man again.

If people are going to say that we have the right manager because of our performance on Saturday shows we can play good football, then why are these players not performing regularly? Could it be anything to do with the manager?

Nah, Richard... as any realistic realist will tell you, it's all about money.

You can't get footballers to play better unless you have a billionaire backer. {sarc/off}

Richard, the counter argument is true - people are basing their argument in favour of Rodgers on ¾ of a season in the Premier League. This conveniently ignores his disloyalty at Watford and his less than inspiring work at Reading. These players don't perform regulalry because we don't have the squad depth that investment brings.

We can't find ways past injuries, fatigue, natural dips in form the way that other teams can. Look at Spurs, a first 11 with as much quality as anyone in the Premier League, yet they are now struggling because of an inadequate squad which still has a lot more quality than ours.

James, are you suggesting we had no way around Cahill's 13 months without a goal? His place was never under threat. Where was Bily or Barkley (this season)? Why didn't we play 2 strikers instead when we had Saha, Yak and Beckford? He does have options, but forever keeps his favourites sweet.

Totally agree with you, Dan. Moyes has his favourites and they will play when they are drawing old age pension if he has his way.

Drenthe got a big bollocking from Neville in the Arsenal game and guess what, he is totally left out for the Swansea game in favour of Neville himself and Moyes hints he was injured? Work that one out for yourselves. Neville is a favourite but a poor tackler these days as are Osman and Fellaini but they are always first on the teamsheet and have had very few great games this season between them.

Moyes has had some money over the years and has not bought very well except Cahill a long time ago along with Arteta. Others cost a lot more but only Baines and Howard have been money well spent. Cahill along with some others are past their best but Moyes will not change things.

We could have 11 games left in the season but after tomorrow it may only be 8 and if it is 8 they will mean nothing then he has no excuse for leaving out the aging players and giving extended starts to some of the youngsters in readiness for next season, eg, Barkley, Duffy, Vellios, Gueye etc.

"No, this is a safety first manager who's sole aim is 40 points, and avoid relegation" - No it isn't, it's his first aim.

"How about never won away at the the old "top four" after 10 YEARS of trying?" - Why not add the "New" Top four in there now?, doesn't suit your argument, does it?

It's always same old, same old.... let's get Rodgers instead of Moyes!!

Rodgers has done really well with Swansea for 18 months, he inherited a great style of football, added his own impetus and now they're gonna survive the Prem comfortably.

But if you want to be cynical, Hull, Ipswich, Reading all did that too. Where are they now?

Rodgers and Lambert etc are all flavours of the season. Those teams could easily get relegated in the next. Anyone heard of second season syndrome? Other teams adapt to the way the survivors play, and Swansea and Norwich could easily get relegated next season. I really hope they don't, I like both of them a lot, but it wouldn't surprise me.

And then what, Moyes has a few bad individual games, and then they want to give him the sack? And even worse employ Lambert, Rodgers, Holloway etc instead?

That is a joke!

Let's sack somebody who has given consistent top 10 finishes and make a huge gamble by hiring these people with very limited Prem experience.

Yeah, if Moyes left Spurs or whatever, it would be a different story. I would consider Lambert and Rodgers. We would be FORCED to make a gamble.

But c'mon, get a grip.

Dan, what has Moyes's favourites got to do with Rodgers managerial ability? Do you not think all managers have favourites? I think we've seen quite recently that it's easy to bash the favourites when they are in the team but, when they are gone, you notice the difference ? like the complete capitulation against Liverpool. That result doesn't happen if Cahill, Neville and Osman are playing, that's the reason they were rested in the first place because they had performed well against Spurs and were seen as vital for the Sunderland game. I see in the TW poll as well that despite 13 months without a goal Cahill was still favourite for the position behind Jelavic in the Blues attack.

These players have qualities that are not always apparent, when Neville is aimlessly giving it away down the line which he is prone to doing, think how many times that right side has been breached this season? Not many, both him and Hibbert are excellent positional right backs and can keep the best of wingers in check, we are far more vulnerable down the left hand side despite Baines being an outstanding full back, mainly because he is largely out of position after attacking and doesn't always do enough to close the ball down.

Tom: "Moyes has not bought very well apart from Cahill and Arteta."? Was Lescott not money well spent? Yobo? Heitinga? Pienaar? Gibson (seemingly)... Coleman?

Ben, a lot want Moyes out because we are quite possibly on the slide under him now, but we most certainly are not improving. So when is it right to make a change? When does he stop living off the limited success of his past?

The poor starts to a season, never competing at certain clubs grounds, not being able to beat enough of the teams down near the relegation places are all problems that are the same every year. Everyone makes mistakes, but you have to learn from them with a view to not making them again. Many argue that Moyes doesn't.

Dan, give me a decent replacement then. I thought my last article proved the point there isnt really anybody decent to replace him at the moment. Any replacement would be a massive gamble.

You say a time for change. We need the next man to be the right man

James, did I say it had anything to do with Rodgers? You said that we have no way around injuries, fatigue, poor form etc, and I just offered a counter arguement that we do have ways around it. Moyes just chooses not to utilise them. That shows to me a lack of ideas from somebody who is paid 65k a week to come up with them.

I dont disagree with you Ben, but where is the line drawn? Everyone asks 'who do we get in instead', but I dont understand how your last article 'proves' that there isnt anybody out there? Im not sure I read it, but proof how? When Walter Smith was doing poorly, were you saying the same thing? Or was it David Moyes all the way? I dont remember him being a glaringly obvious choice at the time.

We all know Moyes isn't going to get sacked, but does anyone really think Spurs or Chelsea would come knocking at the end of the season for him? I don't.

Well, Dan, would you sack Moyes for Rodgers? The key word is sack you see.

I said all along, if Moyes resigned, or he left to another club i.e Kenwright didnt sack him, then Lambert and Rodgers would be candidates.

You cant deny the fact that appointing Lambert and Rodgers instead of Moyes is a massive gamble.

"Drenthe got a big bollocking from Neville in the Arsenal game and guess what, he is totally left out for the Swansea game in favour of Neville himself and Moyes hints he was injured? Work that one out for yourselves." We won, so it's ok and what will you say if Drenthe starts the more important game tomorrow?

Ben,

You ask "Anyone heard of second season syndrome?"

David Moyes has. He finished 17th in his second full season with a much bigger club and better squad than Hull, Ipswich, Reading etc. The fact is Moyes was lucky to survive finishing there at a club the size of Everton.

You then say:

"I thought my last article proved the point there isnt really anybody decent to replace him at the moment"

It "proved" nothing of the sort. When Moyes moves on, there will be plenty of alternatives. If it were to happen right now, my choice would be Martin Jol, a man whose Spurs team finished above us in fifth in his two full seasons in charge, while playing good football too, but fell victim to a trigger happy chairman.

To quote that most reliable of sources, Wikipedia, "In his first season in charge Jol improved their league fortunes and scrapped the defensive nature of play that (previous manager) Santini had instilled."

Sounds too good to be true, doesn't it.

Tom, you noticed it to. Drenthe falls over, Neville allmost bursts a blood vessel, camera cuts to Moyes who Isn't shouting or kicking up a fuss and then after glancing at Neville, starts to get agitated and kicks up a fuss.

Next thing you know, Drenthe is dropped.

These two have allways needed each other, one for playing in the team and the other for getting respect from the other players.

How about this one to put the "we couldn't get anyone better" bollocks I keep hearing.... Ottmar Hitzfeld???

Currently managing the Swiss national side for £1.8m a year.

BTW, that doesn't mean I want Moyes out tomorrow.

I think, when a manager has been at a club for several years, you can't say it's not his style of football. Martinez has been at Wigan for a few years so that is his team and style of football... and likewise with Rogers. He may have put in the ground work but when a new manager comes in he has his own ideas. If he was briefed on how the Swansea fans or board would like the team to play (creative passing football), then he has still got to put it all together with his own choice of players and ideas.

How many years do you have to be at a club before your football is aknowledged? Brendan Rogers has his team playing the way he wants, it just so happens that the two managers like to play passing football. Looking at some of the posts, you would expect some people to credit Anceloti's success at Chelsea to Grant or Mourhino. I did't realise that Moyes getting us to fourth was all down to Walter Smith.

Ben, your last article PROVED that there isn't anyone to replace Moyes? Did it really? I never thought I would do it but I think I'll take a Martin Mason stance here. In your not so humble opinion it did.

Noel, I've always thought that second season set a blueprint for Moyes. I thought he was trying to be more attacking that season but didn't know how to. I remember him talking about loosing the dressing room and there was that little altercation with Big Dunc. That season sent a shockwave through Moyes...

The following season was built on the "us against them syndrome" after the sale of Rooney which saw us reach fourth and Moyes has been dining out on it ever since. If I didn't support Everton, I would probably laugh if someone asked me who could do a better job.

One game and Moyes is a tactical genius?

Tell you what, I've watched Everton all my life and we have been been shocking to watch under Moyes... Against Swansea, we had our best game of the season without doubt; however, I've had more fun watching an entertaining Swansea team than the team I love... go figure.

Moyes is a 'nick it' manager... He will never go out and play expansive football. We will never EVER go to Anfield and have 72 percent possession.

I will not be conned again into thinking Moyes is a great manager. Decent? Yes... A winner? No. Let's watch Moyes bottle it tomorrow night and then let's hear your comments... and if we do get through, we will never beat the RedShite 'cause Moyes won't let the team!!!

Ok fair enough, prove is too strong of a word.

I still dont think people get what I'm trying to say.

People want to sack Moyes to gamble on somebody. Its a different situation when Moyes leaves voluntarily without a sacking then we'll be forced to make a gamble

And again I say a gamble, of course it isnt guaranteed that they would do a worse job, I just think it is likely they would do a worse job.

Noel, to be honest, we both must have a different definition of decent replacement, because I heard hardly any.

Although I agree with you with Jol, because he is proven and plays a good brand of football.

Simply ludicrous OP.

To ignore all that's happened with Swansea and Rodgers because Moyes has had a good win there and shoehorn the conclusion a myth has been destroyed is one-eyed in the extreme.

Supporting Moyes is one thing but this ? get a grip.

Everton's players are better than Swansea's that's why we won. They played better on the day... maybe with a more adventurous manager coaching the same players the score could have been higher??

Weak arguments both ways.

Just throwing into the mix a name that has somehow been forgotten. This man has all the credentials a footballer could want; skill, vision, flair, poise etc. So, if you're an up and coming player or even a regular, I still think that you could learn a lot from this guy. He managed at the highest level and was sacked for non-footballing reasons. He was sacked for a massive mis-quote and that's out there for you guys to check up on

Our Number 2 at the minute is in the mould of our manager. I'm not saying it's not a good combination, but they are both defenders at heart. So this guy could help with the midfield play (Big Dunc was helping the strikers). He could bring the best out of them I'm sure and maybe get Rodwell playing football again.

The only stumbling block I could see would be him accepting a coaching role, but he has been out the game a while and it may benefit him

His name.............. Glenn Hoddle

No way,Chris ? he is too much of a threat to Moyes. We all know Moyes plays it safe. Watching Round being interviewed before the Arsenal game got me thinking, "Is this guy modelling himself on Moyes or what?" Like a clone...

"Everton's players are better than Swansea's that's why we won. They played better on the day... maybe with a more adventurous manager coaching the same players the score could have been higher??"

How come us apologists can't use that excuse when we get beat by Arsenal, City and Man U then?

Ben
Appointing Moyes was "a massive gamble" but, at the time, I'd have taken Tigger, the Bellefield cat in place of Disappointed Smith

I wonder if Reading think that they were correct to sack Rodgers ? As has been stated he is a young manager, in the early stages of his career. I have mentioned him as a possible future Everton manager because I believe that he will go on to "greater things". I think that there are other managers in a similar situation.

And as regards the stature of David Moyes - well if he is that highly regarded he will no doubt be the next manager of Manchester United or Tottenham Hotspur ?

One final thing that sums up my frustration with David Moyes( and perhaps the frustration of others). Prior to the weekends matches I asked a mate at work who is a Gooner if he knew what formation/tactics Arsenal would play at home to Villa. He couldn't tell me for certain as Wenger plays different formations. A pity I thought that I couldn't reply in the same vein about David Moyes - of course I said well I think there might be a chance he will play 4-5-1. Perhaps I am missing something but if we can all predict our tactics with almost 95% success rate - do you not think other coaches/managers will also work that out?

Michael,

I know exactly how Barca will play. Doesn't mean I'd be able to stop them.

When we have much better players we should win regardless of tic-tacs. Little advantages can be gained here and there, but to beat a side better than you means you have to be at the top of your game and a few of theirs not performing. You also need to 'have a go'.

Michael, Arsenal just have the Escape to Victory Pele tactic - Just give it to VAn Persie and hope he can score for them.

Moyes is an average manager who has in my opinion done very lttle at Goodison in the last few years. For all you Moyes fans,keep him for another 10 years and see if we are still not a mediocre mid-table side.
The Everton home record alone is awful having very rarely played an impressive game all season. Even wins against Spurs, Chelsea and Man.City were hard fought, gritty
performances which could easily have been different in the end. Okay, 3 points is 3 points but generally all the other home games have been poor and this is because Moyes has nothing new or just stubbornly refuses to change his tactics.
Playing one front runner is just awful and although it may be accepted away from home, serving it up to the home fans is not acceptable.
My point is, Moyes has limitations in his thinking and whilst he is here the team will continue to struggle against all opposition.

Moyes is a very average manager in an over rated league full of average managers- bar maybe two.The reason Swansea came unstuck against us was because there was one footballer head and shoulders above everyone else on the pitch. Watch tonight's game without him playing and you will see the usual Moyes 'blunt instrument' in action.Great football is all about creative players, they make all the difference.

Sunderland 0...Everton 2
Outstanding performance!
FA Cup semi-final next up!!!
Blows you all out of the water...
The official club motto should be...
In Moyes we trust!