Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Seven Remaining Games
112 Comments: With 31 games done and dusted, our focus is now on the remaining 7 games till the end of the season.
Starting with Norwich away this Saturday to the home game against Newcastle on the last day of the season, where do you think we will finish come Sunday, the 13th of May 2012?
On paper, most of the games look winnable bar the Man Utd game at Old Trafford where we traditionally never take any points.
Can we get at least get 18 points from the remaining fixtures to end the season with 61 points and finish 6th or 7th?
Wally Melwani, Posted 02/04/2012 at 08:19:51
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I understand that morale is at a season-long high, but 18 points from the available 21 is very wishful thinking.
And as for the claim that "our focus is now on the remaining 7 games till the end of the season" - I think there's a match on the 14th April that is drawing quite a lot of focus from the remaining league fixtures. It is with the Evertonians that I've been talking to anyway...
And as for the claim that "our focus is now on the remaining 7 games till the end of the season" - I think there's a match on the 14th April that is drawing quite a lot of focus from the remaining league fixtures. It is with the Evertonians that I've been talking to anyway...
18 from 21 is more than hopeful. It would mean not dropping a point given our match at old trafford.
I think the FA cup will distract and that 7th would be good. 8th decent.
I think the FA cup will distract and that 7th would be good. 8th decent.
7th seems likely. But 5th or 6th are in play til they're not.
I would love it,really love it if we beat the RS in the semis and finish above them in the league.
Anything else is a bonus.
I felt before the season started that we would end on 53 points and still believe that is where we will end up particularly given the cup distraction
Anything else is a bonus.
I felt before the season started that we would end on 53 points and still believe that is where we will end up particularly given the cup distraction
I've just filled out the league predictor here http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/predictor/default.stm, and looking at who we are playing and when I have us down for 9 points out of 21... which I admit is pessimistic!
Table I ended up with:
1 Man Utd 38 58 93
2 Man City 38 58 86
3 Tottenham 38 30 79
4 Arsenal 38 23 75
5 Chelsea 38 23 68
6 Newcastle 38 10 67
7 Swansea 38 1 57
8 Sunderland 38 8 53
9 Everton 38 -1 52
10 Liverpool 38 3 50
11 Norwich 38 -12 45
12 Stoke 38 -16 45
13 Fulham 38 -8 44
14 West Brom 38 -10 42
15 Bolton 38 -28 37
16 Blackburn 38 -23 36
17 Aston Villa 38 -18 34
18 QPR 38 -28 30
19 Wigan 38 -34 29
20 Wolves 38 -41 24
Table I ended up with:
1 Man Utd 38 58 93
2 Man City 38 58 86
3 Tottenham 38 30 79
4 Arsenal 38 23 75
5 Chelsea 38 23 68
6 Newcastle 38 10 67
7 Swansea 38 1 57
8 Sunderland 38 8 53
9 Everton 38 -1 52
10 Liverpool 38 3 50
11 Norwich 38 -12 45
12 Stoke 38 -16 45
13 Fulham 38 -8 44
14 West Brom 38 -10 42
15 Bolton 38 -28 37
16 Blackburn 38 -23 36
17 Aston Villa 38 -18 34
18 QPR 38 -28 30
19 Wigan 38 -34 29
20 Wolves 38 -41 24
So basicaaly, Stuart, you put in that practically every team has a decent run in, except Everton and Liverpool?
Dan, I've got the teams above us generally getting more points than us, and the teams below us getting less, which seems fairly logical to me! It was meant as a bit of fun, not an accurate prediction, otherwise I would have done it at the bookies! Here's points gained out of 21 from my predictions - you're right in that some are obviously off - I can't see Spurs going unbeaten until the end of the season for example...
1 Man Utd 20
2 Man City 15
3 Tottenham 21
4 Arsenal 17
5 Chelsea 15
6 Newcastle 14
7 Swansea 18
8 Sunderland 12
9 Everton 9
10 Liverpool 8
11 Norwich 6
12 Stoke 7
13 Fulham 5
14 West Brom 6
15 Bolton 8
16 Blackburn 8
17 Aston Villa 1
18 QPR 2
19 Wigan 1
20 Wolves 2
1 Man Utd 20
2 Man City 15
3 Tottenham 21
4 Arsenal 17
5 Chelsea 15
6 Newcastle 14
7 Swansea 18
8 Sunderland 12
9 Everton 9
10 Liverpool 8
11 Norwich 6
12 Stoke 7
13 Fulham 5
14 West Brom 6
15 Bolton 8
16 Blackburn 8
17 Aston Villa 1
18 QPR 2
19 Wigan 1
20 Wolves 2
So Stu, you predicted Spurs would win their last 7 games, then said you can't see that happening.
I can see a tall dark stranger entering your life. But he probably won't...
I can see a tall dark stranger entering your life. But he probably won't...
Jeez, this place has got a lot more hostile than it was when I last posted!
I filled in the predictor a game at a time. Each game I put what I thought. That ended up, without me realising, with 7 victories for Spurs. Looking back at it, I think Spurs are unlikely to win their next 7. Instead of carping, have a go yourself maybe - it was just meant as a bit of fun,and in line with the original post...
I filled in the predictor a game at a time. Each game I put what I thought. That ended up, without me realising, with 7 victories for Spurs. Looking back at it, I think Spurs are unlikely to win their next 7. Instead of carping, have a go yourself maybe - it was just meant as a bit of fun,and in line with the original post...
I think Swansea play all the teams that are fighting for their lives. Thats what I look for in a lot of games around this time of year. Who will be putting blood and guts on the line, and who will have already booked their holidays? It always throws up surprises.
Only havin a laugh Stu, lighten up.
I tried doing that predictor but it doesn't allow for putting Swansea into administration and the 3 point deduction Man United are going to get for De Gea punching Balotelli.
I tried doing that predictor but it doesn't allow for putting Swansea into administration and the 3 point deduction Man United are going to get for De Gea punching Balotelli.
Apart from the extra money I don't care if we finished 7th or 13th . There's no extra 'prestige' finishing 7th for me despite Moyes harping on about how great it is to finish in the top 10.
We need to win this FA Cup, Moyes will never be given a better chance.
We need to win this FA Cup, Moyes will never be given a better chance.
Well we now play Stoke away 4 days before a potential cup final. So I can a second string team going there, and then of course Wolves away a few days after a potential cup final so 6 points from those 2 will be a huge ask.
5 wins and 3 draws?
Yeah - we can do that!
:o)
Yeah - we can do that!
:o)
Tommy, what about our usual 'best of the rest' tag? We wouldnt want to lose that would we? Except 'the rest' seems to be a shorter list each season.
Reading Reina is out for the Shite against us due to a red card. Can a red card in the League affect a Cup game?
I confidently ? and realistically ? predict that we shall garner 12 more points before season`s end.That should be enough to see us gain 7th spot.
Some random predictions there to be sure, really have no idea where 9 pts from 21 comes in considering our current form.
Here's my own stab at results (can't be bothered predicting everyone else's matches):
Norwich (A) - 2-1 win
Sunderland (H) 1-0 win
Man U (A) - 0-2 loss
Fulham (H) 2-0 win
Stoke (A) 1-1 draw
Wolves (A) 2-2 draw
Newcastle (H) 2-1 win
Total of 4 wins, 2 draws and 1 defeat = 14 points.
Leaving us on 57 which I think would be enough to see us in 7th, but maybe 8th
Of course, as has been said above, the matches that matter so much more are on 14th April and (hopefully) the back-end of May as they represent the best chance of silverware, glory and European competition next year.
On that front I honestly have no idea how either match will go, we haven't got a great record against the Reds in cup competitions and the form book tends to go out of the window in derby games. As for Spurs and Chelsea, I think this too is incredibly open, Harry will want to part on a high note and he's also going to want to deal another blow to Chelsea confidence for the top 4 battle, so I don't think there's any chance Spurs will hold off in favour of focusing on the league.
I suppose the hollywood script sees us defeating Liverpool, then coming from behind to overturn Chelsea in the final.
Here's my own stab at results (can't be bothered predicting everyone else's matches):
Norwich (A) - 2-1 win
Sunderland (H) 1-0 win
Man U (A) - 0-2 loss
Fulham (H) 2-0 win
Stoke (A) 1-1 draw
Wolves (A) 2-2 draw
Newcastle (H) 2-1 win
Total of 4 wins, 2 draws and 1 defeat = 14 points.
Leaving us on 57 which I think would be enough to see us in 7th, but maybe 8th
Of course, as has been said above, the matches that matter so much more are on 14th April and (hopefully) the back-end of May as they represent the best chance of silverware, glory and European competition next year.
On that front I honestly have no idea how either match will go, we haven't got a great record against the Reds in cup competitions and the form book tends to go out of the window in derby games. As for Spurs and Chelsea, I think this too is incredibly open, Harry will want to part on a high note and he's also going to want to deal another blow to Chelsea confidence for the top 4 battle, so I don't think there's any chance Spurs will hold off in favour of focusing on the league.
I suppose the hollywood script sees us defeating Liverpool, then coming from behind to overturn Chelsea in the final.
Zero chance of getting 6th, we have 10 points to make up on Chelsea or Newcastle in just 7 games FFS! (Make that 6 games as we will lose away to Man U) Lets keep it a little realistic people.
It's very hard to predict the end of the season as I fear a 2005esq collapse in form should we get knocked out of the cup on the 14th.
Norwich away on Saturday will not be an easy game. We beat Swansea not just because we played well but also because they didn't really turn up on the day, so we'll see which Norwich turn up. I think we'll get abouut 11 points from the last 7 games leaving us 7th or 8th at the end of the day.
It's very hard to predict the end of the season as I fear a 2005esq collapse in form should we get knocked out of the cup on the 14th.
Norwich away on Saturday will not be an easy game. We beat Swansea not just because we played well but also because they didn't really turn up on the day, so we'll see which Norwich turn up. I think we'll get abouut 11 points from the last 7 games leaving us 7th or 8th at the end of the day.
Our skipper Phil Neville on 5 live just now.. ' Yakubu is the best natural goalscorer I have ever played with.. ' Wow..
You sure he didn't say 'fattest'?
(1) I am not sure about Reina not being there for the Semis. What are the odds of an appeal given the way the lad hammed it up when he rolled over? The RS Beelzebub pact will help them as always.
(2) I wondered on another thread whether the RS were mathematically safe. I'd "luv it" if someone could use the predictor to demonstrate that Stevie Gee could be heading for Leeds and some other places next year.
(2) I wondered on another thread whether the RS were mathematically safe. I'd "luv it" if someone could use the predictor to demonstrate that Stevie Gee could be heading for Leeds and some other places next year.
Tony #500.. Reina had to appeal today. Cant see it anywhere. He is out.
Tony - LFC have announced they wouldn't be appealing the red card. Reina will miss semi.
Liverpool are not mathematically safe - but it's very unlikely they'll go down. They're already on 42 points which has been enough to ensure Premier League survival every season bar one since the Premier League consisted of 20 teams and not 22.
But I'd love it, I'd just love it...
But I'd love it, I'd just love it...
I reckon 35 points will be safe this year!
It would be boring as we would not have the derby to look forward to every season.
However a relegation fight would be lovely to watch though.
Rub a little salt into the open wounds of the fallen king kenny, Kenny "LOSER" Daglish, hahahahaha.
His face when they lose is the most ugly face I have ever seen, and his face when they scored against us was just as ugly..
Kenny deserves all the shit he can get after protecting Suarez like he did.
Daglish sort of represents all that is bad about liverpool fc.
How fitting.
And they had the nerve to chant 10 years and no trophy.
It gives me great joy to see that man suffer and also to hear the phone-ins from disgruntled red shite supporters.
More of the same please. Hope they keep Daglish on for many more years.
However a relegation fight would be lovely to watch though.
Rub a little salt into the open wounds of the fallen king kenny, Kenny "LOSER" Daglish, hahahahaha.
His face when they lose is the most ugly face I have ever seen, and his face when they scored against us was just as ugly..
Kenny deserves all the shit he can get after protecting Suarez like he did.
Daglish sort of represents all that is bad about liverpool fc.
How fitting.
And they had the nerve to chant 10 years and no trophy.
It gives me great joy to see that man suffer and also to hear the phone-ins from disgruntled red shite supporters.
More of the same please. Hope they keep Daglish on for many more years.
You lost me when you said that Utd would get 20 points out of seven games. The rest is a little less fancifull but I bet Swansea dont win 6 of the last 7 either. We will finnish strongly in the league and be pushing towards 6th at the end.
Same attitude from me as usual, but now we're above the Victims, and they are in the semis as we are, I think 7th should be the lowest acceptable spot to finish. I know it sounds like we are just upping our expectations to suit what we've got now, but that shouldn't be a bad thing.
For me, every player in the other 16 teams in the league would prefer to be in the Cup semis as well as trying to finish as high as possible in the league, and our players and manager should be having a right go of both competitions.
Six from seven? Probably not, but definitely possible.
For me, every player in the other 16 teams in the league would prefer to be in the Cup semis as well as trying to finish as high as possible in the league, and our players and manager should be having a right go of both competitions.
Six from seven? Probably not, but definitely possible.
Six from seven? Yes we can if only DM will let the boys go out and play with the belief that they are good enough, and they are, to win them. Hey, isn´t it about time that we took something from OT? We can if only...............!!!!!
Attitude Mr M... Attitude. Daring deeds give results. Have the courage to win the games instead of the fear of loosing them.
Attitude Mr M... Attitude. Daring deeds give results. Have the courage to win the games instead of the fear of loosing them.
Mark (489) - Yak was naturally gifted to put them in. Who can deny it?
VanNistelrooy had his career, Yak his. Never a day was Ruud more gifted. We see where they both wound up.
VanNistelrooy had his career, Yak his. Never a day was Ruud more gifted. We see where they both wound up.
Denis (486) - "Zero chance of getting 6th, we have 10 points to make up on Chelsea or Newcastle in just 7 games FFS".
We don't have zero chance. 21 points up for grabs. Newcastle and Chelsea have to come back to us as we go towards them. No question.
Let's see how the next 2-3 weeks go before we state "zero chance".
What chance did we have on January 1st this year? But here we are.
We don't have zero chance. 21 points up for grabs. Newcastle and Chelsea have to come back to us as we go towards them. No question.
Let's see how the next 2-3 weeks go before we state "zero chance".
What chance did we have on January 1st this year? But here we are.
I think a lot will depends on whether we get to the FA Cup final, but we'll finish around the 53/54 point mark I reckon.
3 wins 2 draws and 2 defeats seems about right. Still to play Sunderland at home, who'll want revenge for their FA Cup exit, Newcastle are still pushing for top 4 and Utd always beat us.
3 wins 2 draws and 2 defeats seems about right. Still to play Sunderland at home, who'll want revenge for their FA Cup exit, Newcastle are still pushing for top 4 and Utd always beat us.
Brian @ 526 "Isn´t it about time that we took something from OT?" I agree. Think we could get something there.
James, ask your local bookie what price he'll give you on Everton finishing 6th and I'll double it. Zero chance.
GJ - If I had a local bookie, I'd get down. We still have our demented laws on gambling here in the States.
What's the line on 6th for EFC over there?
What's the line on 6th for EFC over there?
James, I always admire optimism but blind optmisim is for la la land and the demented. If you really think we have a chance of making up ten points on one of two teams, in just seven games (one of which is at OT), then that's your choice. I don't think you've only been watching football for a very long.
The phrase 'mathematically possible' should be taken with a pinch of salt.
By the way, Arsenal have a 'mathematical chance' of winning the league and Chelsea and Newcaslte (the teams we would be chasing to overtake) have a mathematical chance of finishing 2nd!
Even IF we won all our remaining games (and thats a hell of an IF), both Chelsea and Newcastle would have to lose around half of theirs. Last time I looked, they were doing quite well (hence being 5th and 6th!).
The phrase 'mathematically possible' should be taken with a pinch of salt.
By the way, Arsenal have a 'mathematical chance' of winning the league and Chelsea and Newcaslte (the teams we would be chasing to overtake) have a mathematical chance of finishing 2nd!
Even IF we won all our remaining games (and thats a hell of an IF), both Chelsea and Newcastle would have to lose around half of theirs. Last time I looked, they were doing quite well (hence being 5th and 6th!).
Btw, Barcodes next 3 games: Swansea, Bolton, Stoke. Cheleas' next 3: Wigan, Fulham, Spurs.
Not exactly unwinnable fixtures for them.
Not exactly unwinnable fixtures for them.
I have Liverpool 2nd from bottom after the April 29th matches, anyone beat that?!
Not easy fixtures them. Spurs are an excellent side, Bolton and Wigan both fighting for survival, Stoke are horrible but hard to beat, Fulham is a local derby for Chelsea and Swansea are a good side with the ability to hurt anyone on their day. Not that I think we can still get 6th though, but of James dares to dream that's fine with me!
Denis - Didn't say we were going to make up 10 with only 21 to play for. Said it's in play. Mathematically 4th place is still in play. That's flat not going to happen.
But the 5th and 6th place teams are right above us and why should I follow my team for the last 7 games (or any one of them for that matter) without holding out hope.
It doesn't happen, it doesn't. The games will get played and we'll see.
But the 5th and 6th place teams are right above us and why should I follow my team for the last 7 games (or any one of them for that matter) without holding out hope.
It doesn't happen, it doesn't. The games will get played and we'll see.
Mark - chelsea and the barcodes are not in their respective league postions because they have been shit this season. Bolton and Wigan on the otherhand are.... I could also just as easily say that Stoke, Swansea and Fulham have nothing to play for so won't be hard games.....
To be honest you can use any logic you want to back up your position and although not impossible, we will not finish 6th (using your line of thought, we also have to play Stoke away, nevermind Manure away).
(When I was at school I used to do the whole 'if we win all our remaining games we could finish Xth' etc - then I grew up and learnt that that sort of thinking never comes off. (No offence to James).
Personally, given how utterly shite we were between Aug and Jan, 7th would be a minor miracle, although it says more about the standard of the league than anything else. We should also say a big thankyou to lady luck for results like Blackburn and Fulham away, take 6 points off our total and we'd be 14th!
Am pumping all my optimism into Wembley for now - any voodoo dolls going about to curse the RS?
To be honest you can use any logic you want to back up your position and although not impossible, we will not finish 6th (using your line of thought, we also have to play Stoke away, nevermind Manure away).
(When I was at school I used to do the whole 'if we win all our remaining games we could finish Xth' etc - then I grew up and learnt that that sort of thinking never comes off. (No offence to James).
Personally, given how utterly shite we were between Aug and Jan, 7th would be a minor miracle, although it says more about the standard of the league than anything else. We should also say a big thankyou to lady luck for results like Blackburn and Fulham away, take 6 points off our total and we'd be 14th!
Am pumping all my optimism into Wembley for now - any voodoo dolls going about to curse the RS?
James - understand the optimism (I would also love it if we finally won at OT for the first time in fuck knows how long!), just trying to keep it realistic.
One game at a time and all that.....
One game at a time and all that.....
Any thoughts on Howard Webb as referee for the semi ?will he join the long roll of dishonour which includes Thomas,Poll,Clattenberg and Atkinson ?His appearance on YOU TUBE singing that dirge from Carousel does not bode well.Reminds me of watching Clive Thomas being interviewed the night before the 1977 semi when he said he was looking forward to reffing the game especially as he would be meeting his old friend Emlyn Hughes ! ! Hmmm- I was paranoid then and I'm paranoid now.
I have us finishing 3rd with 61 points.we could have done better but I don't begrudge Wolves the consolation win in their last home game as it lifts them off the bottom - replaced by RS! It's easy this game!
Brian (620)- think Webb's a decent referee, definitely one of the ones I respect the most. Though having said that has proved prone to a few errors in more recent times
Denis, I don't think we can finish 6th either, I was just making the point that if James does, I won't begrudge him.
Eh?
It's pretty obvious that with nothing much to gain in the league Moyes will probably tinker with the team and hope the reward will come in the Cup. We have some tough games left beginning with Norwich away this weekend. Might be a good time to rest some key players like Jelavic and Baines etc. Liverpool will be doing the same I'm sure.
With Reina absent they only really have one key player to protect!! Spearing, Henderson, Downing, Carroll et al aren't going to hurt us. But if Stevie G la could contrive an injury before 14th it would indeed be a bonus.
The other Denis, Dennis.
Well I hope we'll end up 7th and at least above the other team.
More important, we have to beat them in the semi and finally get some silverware? the boys, David and all of us deserves it.
Being from Denmark and an Evertonian since 1977 (6-0 v Coventry), I have just discovered this site and I'm loving it, so thanks to you all - for the site and all the inside information I get from reading the colums and comments.
COYB
More important, we have to beat them in the semi and finally get some silverware? the boys, David and all of us deserves it.
Being from Denmark and an Evertonian since 1977 (6-0 v Coventry), I have just discovered this site and I'm loving it, so thanks to you all - for the site and all the inside information I get from reading the colums and comments.
COYB
Notice that the Howard Webb video has been taken off "you tube" - wonder why ?
I'm getting sick of the bullshit about beating the top four as a means to undermine the progress we've seen with current team. Often I read this ? particularly on ToffeeWeb ? used as a negative about Moyes's record against the top 4 in the last 10 years but what about Kendall's (Mk 3), Royle's or Smith's record. I'm sure they are equally poor or even worse, just like the rest of the league. It's got to be the most dumbest comment ever uttered.
Listen guys, that's why they are the top 4, they hardly ever get beat by any of the other teams in the EPL ? never mind us. More often, if they are beaten on home turf, this is seen as a shock win.
Listen guys, that's why they are the top 4, they hardly ever get beat by any of the other teams in the EPL ? never mind us. More often, if they are beaten on home turf, this is seen as a shock win.
Colin (#866), may I venture to suggest that you see it because it's true and because it has great meaning and significance. It's not bullshit, and how can facts about Moyes's failure to defeat the top four (plus Liverpool) on their own turf "undermine the progress we've seen with current team"??? It doesn't alter the positive results achieved... but you must be fearful that it deflates an over-inflated reputation granted to our manager in the 10-year media wankfest we are still in the midst of. If ever the truth hurts...
Do you really want to bring up the records of past managers? I'm not sure why you would... but let's just take a look at Joe Royle, God love him! The last really great Anfield victory came on his watch. If only this current shithouse of a manager would go to Anfield with that kind of attitude...
As for the dumbest of comments... don't tempt me..
Do you really want to bring up the records of past managers? I'm not sure why you would... but let's just take a look at Joe Royle, God love him! The last really great Anfield victory came on his watch. If only this current shithouse of a manager would go to Anfield with that kind of attitude...
As for the dumbest of comments... don't tempt me..
Denis (614) - "One game at a time and all that..... ".
Same as me. All I'm saying about the last few games. We don't finish higher, we don't.
To get 5th, Chelsea and Newcastle will have to come back to us as well as we keep winning as they do so. What's the chances? Slim, right?
But the games haven't been played yet. Why should I tune in this weekend hoping we finish ahead of those beneath us? Rather read a book then cheer my team on with that mindset.
Same as me. All I'm saying about the last few games. We don't finish higher, we don't.
To get 5th, Chelsea and Newcastle will have to come back to us as well as we keep winning as they do so. What's the chances? Slim, right?
But the games haven't been played yet. Why should I tune in this weekend hoping we finish ahead of those beneath us? Rather read a book then cheer my team on with that mindset.
Colin (866) - Well said. Our record against the Top 4 is because over 38 games they have more talent than us.
They're not better managed, coached (or determined) over 38 games. But in the course of a season, their margin for error is much larger than ours because they can afford the price for the best talent.
They're not better managed, coached (or determined) over 38 games. But in the course of a season, their margin for error is much larger than ours because they can afford the price for the best talent.
Dennis (621) - HaHa. You got me.
Wait . . . unless you were serious. Were you?
Wait . . . unless you were serious. Were you?
Colin, I'm sure if those blokes were still managing Everton, we'd be having a go at them. Fact is, Moyes is the manager NOW, and in over 10 years, he's never won at a ground about 400 yards from ours.
James, your logic is way off the mark, our record against the top four has fuck all to do with playing 38 games as we are only talking about four away games a season over ten years. The other league games have nothing whatsoever to do with the games against those teams.
"It's got to be the most dumbest comment ever uttered. "
Oh c'mon, that's just too easy. Possibly the softest target since Macauley Culkin opted to sunbathe nude at Neverland and innocently asked 'Mike' to smear suntan lotion on his scrotum.
Oh c'mon, that's just too easy. Possibly the softest target since Macauley Culkin opted to sunbathe nude at Neverland and innocently asked 'Mike' to smear suntan lotion on his scrotum.
Michael as I said bullshit again. I clicked your link and in big letters it said Kanchelskis. Royle's squad was a hell of a lot better than the current one we have because it was funded (briefly) by Johnson and we could afford better quality players. At this current time we have to make do and try to compete with very meager resources. James (877) is spot on, overall their win ratio is higher than anybody elses hence why they are called the top four.
Colin, I don't think Royle ever lost a match to RS whilst Everton manager, including the very first match in charge of a team so low in the table we were already considered dead & buried - & I'd venture RS were a lot less worse then than they are now. This feat continued through the Dave Watson caretaker spell & even under HK MkIII & I don't think it's because they were spending big money.
James [878] - it was merely my efforts on that predictor thingy - I found the results very pleasing, even if a tad unlikely to be replicated in reality.
James [878] - it was merely my efforts on that predictor thingy - I found the results very pleasing, even if a tad unlikely to be replicated in reality.
Re: Howard Webb. I admired his game management enormously during the Muamba incident at WHL, he was superb.
However, his general refereeing has deteriorated noticeably over the last couple of seasons and, in my opinion, he is now an attention seeker in the league of Graham Poll.
Therefore I fully expect the RS to be given a ridiculous penalty, or us to be denied a clear one, as Webb would then receive great praise from the RS-loving media.
However, his general refereeing has deteriorated noticeably over the last couple of seasons and, in my opinion, he is now an attention seeker in the league of Graham Poll.
Therefore I fully expect the RS to be given a ridiculous penalty, or us to be denied a clear one, as Webb would then receive great praise from the RS-loving media.
Moyes clearly has an awful record against the sky 4 away, and probably an average one at home. I would be interested to know what comparable club like spurs, villa have had over that period. I suspect just as bad as i cant remember spurs beating united, liverpool or chelsea away.
Gavin (882) - Wasn't talking about any 4 teams. But since you are, when over those 10 years did we have more talent than those 4 teams?
I'd add, and not just at you Gavin, why are the players somehow exempted from our poor showings against these 4 teams? Really, it's all Moyes' fault?
I'm thinking we have gone up against teams at their place who had better players.
Let's flip Moyes and Ferguson. How would EFC have faired better over the 10 years by the magical presence of the other Scot manager?
I'd add, and not just at you Gavin, why are the players somehow exempted from our poor showings against these 4 teams? Really, it's all Moyes' fault?
I'm thinking we have gone up against teams at their place who had better players.
Let's flip Moyes and Ferguson. How would EFC have faired better over the 10 years by the magical presence of the other Scot manager?
One can only speculate, James. However, I don't think the only thing that separates the two Scots is financial circumstances. In your flipped world I find it inconceivable that Moyes would achieve a fraction of Ferguson's success. Maybe a monied club will make the mistake of taking Moyes away from us & then we'll see whether he would thrive in under the different set of expectations that come with better financial support.
Wow! Michael I can't believe you described David Moyes as 'this current shithouse of a manager'!!!
I can only hope that David Moyes or any of our current squad WILL NEVER look at this site...it's not exactly going to fill them with confidence or a sense of belonging is it?
We have every chance of winning the FA cup and building a better, stronger squad for next season.
I can only hope that David Moyes or any of our current squad WILL NEVER look at this site...it's not exactly going to fill them with confidence or a sense of belonging is it?
We have every chance of winning the FA cup and building a better, stronger squad for next season.
If we beat the Shite at Wembley, Moyes will be the first Everton manager to win a semi or final against Liverpool for generations, let alone 10 years...
I want to report Michael Kendrick (#874) to the editor for breaking the new TW edict on positive and constructive debate for the "current shithouse of a manager" comment...oh sorry I forgot you ARE the editor aren't you Michael.
I think the edict was on pissing matches... which it sounds like you may be wanting to start.
I wouldn't feel inclined to call him such names if he had a more positive and upbeat attitude toward his job ? especially when it comes to playing against them bastards.
He dug his own hole here; let's see what pre-match bullshit he comes out with this time... at least we can believe that he is actually trying to set the team up to win this time... although I'm far from convinced.
I wouldn't feel inclined to call him such names if he had a more positive and upbeat attitude toward his job ? especially when it comes to playing against them bastards.
He dug his own hole here; let's see what pre-match bullshit he comes out with this time... at least we can believe that he is actually trying to set the team up to win this time... although I'm far from convinced.
James 136 - your 'flip Ferguson for Moyes' argument is nonsense. a) Because it can't be proved and b) because on the evidence of their records Ferguson would've wiped the floor with Moyes achievements over the past ten years had he been in charge at EFC. For reference google 'Aberdeen F.C.' as a starting point.
Please stop using this as an argument - it can't be proved and on the basis of what we know it's completely wrong as well.
Please stop using this as an argument - it can't be proved and on the basis of what we know it's completely wrong as well.
Adrian #145 "We have every chance of winning the FA cup and building a better, stronger squad for next season."
With what money Adrian? Do you know something we don't?
With what money Adrian? Do you know something we don't?
Mike (151) - Just so I'm following your argument:
"nonsense. a) Because it can't be proved". OK. It can't.
My view is that the position of manager is over-rated. Yet, some rate, Ferguson and Moyes among the few.
However, you follow "can't be proved" with "Ferguson would've wiped the floor with Moyes achievements over the past ten years had he been in charge at EFC". Haha. Make up your mind. Can't have it both ways.
I rate Ferguson. But he's only done as well as the talent he's had. Just like Moyes. Just like Mourhino. Just like Pep, and whatever manager we'd name. No more or less.
Here, let's leave EFC and ManU out of it.
The bottom 5 teams in EPL have allowed the most goals. Let's say Moyes, Ferguson, Mourhino, Pep (a maybe on him) took over those teams. How would they improve?
On known past performance, those managers would train them towards allowing fewer goals and would be successful doing so. They all have a track record that way (with a ? on Pep).
But how would any of those same managers make the players on those rosters better players? How?
I don't know how. You don't. Which puts us in the same boat as Moyes, Fergy, etc.
Flip Moyes with Ferguson these last 10 years, and you flip the view of them. Moyes - "He's underachieved in the CL".
Ferguson - "Drab, dour, defeatist, etc".
Managers are over-rated. Very few count at all. ManU has one of them who do. So does Everton. ManU has more money, so more talent available. Everton suffers a crippling loss of funds by signing Bily.
Yeah, Ferguson's a better manager. Bullshit.
"nonsense. a) Because it can't be proved". OK. It can't.
My view is that the position of manager is over-rated. Yet, some rate, Ferguson and Moyes among the few.
However, you follow "can't be proved" with "Ferguson would've wiped the floor with Moyes achievements over the past ten years had he been in charge at EFC". Haha. Make up your mind. Can't have it both ways.
I rate Ferguson. But he's only done as well as the talent he's had. Just like Moyes. Just like Mourhino. Just like Pep, and whatever manager we'd name. No more or less.
Here, let's leave EFC and ManU out of it.
The bottom 5 teams in EPL have allowed the most goals. Let's say Moyes, Ferguson, Mourhino, Pep (a maybe on him) took over those teams. How would they improve?
On known past performance, those managers would train them towards allowing fewer goals and would be successful doing so. They all have a track record that way (with a ? on Pep).
But how would any of those same managers make the players on those rosters better players? How?
I don't know how. You don't. Which puts us in the same boat as Moyes, Fergy, etc.
Flip Moyes with Ferguson these last 10 years, and you flip the view of them. Moyes - "He's underachieved in the CL".
Ferguson - "Drab, dour, defeatist, etc".
Managers are over-rated. Very few count at all. ManU has one of them who do. So does Everton. ManU has more money, so more talent available. Everton suffers a crippling loss of funds by signing Bily.
Yeah, Ferguson's a better manager. Bullshit.
Anyone remember how Sunderland twatted Chelsea at Stamford Bridge last season, didnt Villa do the same?....and of course Blackburn best Man utd at old trafford earlier in the year. Others have also had good away wins too.
So are we to believe these teams have a better record over the past ten years than Everton? It doesnt make sense to hand pick certain games as if it were they were the only measure of how good we are.. So what would you rather us do, have the odd big win away against the elite teams, but then fuck up against the rest of the league? Cos thats what other teams do....all the time. And that's why they all finish beneath us.....all the time.
If were talking league performances, reflected by league position then Moyes outshines anyone, including any manager outside of the money clubs. Why is this so hard to understand?
We can argue all day about whether his teams are good to watch or not, but its complete bullshit to analyse his performance....by actually ignoring most of the fucking games Moyes wins us!
So are we to believe these teams have a better record over the past ten years than Everton? It doesnt make sense to hand pick certain games as if it were they were the only measure of how good we are.. So what would you rather us do, have the odd big win away against the elite teams, but then fuck up against the rest of the league? Cos thats what other teams do....all the time. And that's why they all finish beneath us.....all the time.
If were talking league performances, reflected by league position then Moyes outshines anyone, including any manager outside of the money clubs. Why is this so hard to understand?
We can argue all day about whether his teams are good to watch or not, but its complete bullshit to analyse his performance....by actually ignoring most of the fucking games Moyes wins us!
Are Spurs and City not in the top four then ? or is it only "the top four" ? two of which are not actually in the top five ? that count when this argument surfaces.
Talk about the proper top four ?- the teams placed 1st - 4th and Moyes's record stands up to any manager's.
Talk about the proper top four ?- the teams placed 1st - 4th and Moyes's record stands up to any manager's.
"But how would any of those same managers make the players on those rosters better players? How?"
It's called coaching, James. Not sure if you've ever been coached, or coached someone yourself, but the coach/manager has a fair bit of impact on how a player turns out.
Do you think Ferguson got lucky with his youngsters in the 90s? That he just happened to get two brothers that were exceptional footballers?
Likewise, do you think Moyes was just unlucky that one of our better prospects that came to Everton as a youngster and showed more promise than any of the young players we have now decided to take his legal loophole and join a club that had only just gotten back into the Premier League? Or that the supposed 30million pound centre half/midfielder has turned out to be a sideways passing liability?
It's called coaching, James. Not sure if you've ever been coached, or coached someone yourself, but the coach/manager has a fair bit of impact on how a player turns out.
Do you think Ferguson got lucky with his youngsters in the 90s? That he just happened to get two brothers that were exceptional footballers?
Likewise, do you think Moyes was just unlucky that one of our better prospects that came to Everton as a youngster and showed more promise than any of the young players we have now decided to take his legal loophole and join a club that had only just gotten back into the Premier League? Or that the supposed 30million pound centre half/midfielder has turned out to be a sideways passing liability?
James you might have the slightest credibility in your logic if the top four had never been beaten at home in ten years in the league but I don't even need to look that statistic up to know its a nonsense thus completely negating the quality players argument which taken to extremes would put the top four sides only ever losing games against each other which we also know is nonsense.
And James your "Colin (866) - Well said. Our record against the Top 4 is because over 38 games they have more talent than us.
They're not better managed, coached (or determined) over 38 games. But in the course of a season, their margin for error is much larger than ours because they can afford the price for the best talent." really does mean you are talking about every other team in the premier league as not just once but twice you say over 38 games; we don't play the top four 38 times a season, we play the content of the league over those 38 games QED every other team so yes you did mention every other team twice.
They're not better managed, coached (or determined) over 38 games. But in the course of a season, their margin for error is much larger than ours because they can afford the price for the best talent." really does mean you are talking about every other team in the premier league as not just once but twice you say over 38 games; we don't play the top four 38 times a season, we play the content of the league over those 38 games QED every other team so yes you did mention every other team twice.
The point is it doesn't matter what or where you are Re Moyes. If He turns up at Old Trafford, The Eastlands, etc etc etc with the knife / gunfight rubbish firmly inplanted in his head and the teams attitude reflects this, well no wonder we get nowt year after year.
I would guess that this record is statistically un-balanced due to Moyeses undue caution tilting the balance against us.
Until he changes his ethos over the long term our results won't.
Not so much Moyes out as Moyes change - get a grip ffs
I would guess that this record is statistically un-balanced due to Moyeses undue caution tilting the balance against us.
Until he changes his ethos over the long term our results won't.
Not so much Moyes out as Moyes change - get a grip ffs
I've just done some calculating and it's mathematically possible for Liverpool to end up in the Blue Square Premier League next season, if they lose all their remaining games AND before the end of the season they go into administration 23 times and have 230 points taken off them! Mind you I did fail CSE Maths 40 years ago and haven't been very good at sums since then!
Peter @ 180: ha-ha! Brilliant! I haven't double-checked your figures but I reckon they're probably spot on. Here's hoping...
Peter Davies.....in the words of John Luke Picard....MAKE IT SO.
"Do you think Ferguson got lucky with his youngsters in the 90s? That he just happened to get two brothers that were exceptional footballers?"
He took the best players from all of the clubs around the country. Beckham from Spurs, Giggs from Man City, Butt and Scholes from Oldham etc. These players were well known to be outstanding talents when he brought them in - not unlike Barkley or Rooney type figures. So lucky? No ... calculated and really possible anymore. Every clubs has cottoned on and there is the small matter of compensation payable. Secondly, that team of kids in the 90's wouldn't be as succesful now. They were the best players in a league that was made of up the best domestic players, with a few foreigners scattered here and there. Now, the top end of the premier league is a collection of the best players hand picked from around the world. If you think that is how easy it is, why would Man Utd now be routinely bringing in players for £15-30m (+) every year. Why wouldn't they just bring through a Scholes and a Giggs every year and be set?
He took the best players from all of the clubs around the country. Beckham from Spurs, Giggs from Man City, Butt and Scholes from Oldham etc. These players were well known to be outstanding talents when he brought them in - not unlike Barkley or Rooney type figures. So lucky? No ... calculated and really possible anymore. Every clubs has cottoned on and there is the small matter of compensation payable. Secondly, that team of kids in the 90's wouldn't be as succesful now. They were the best players in a league that was made of up the best domestic players, with a few foreigners scattered here and there. Now, the top end of the premier league is a collection of the best players hand picked from around the world. If you think that is how easy it is, why would Man Utd now be routinely bringing in players for £15-30m (+) every year. Why wouldn't they just bring through a Scholes and a Giggs every year and be set?
Gosh I just read the rest of that post Roman.
Exactly John #159
I'd rather finish in the higher in the league and not beat certain teams away (nb our home record against them in recent seasons is good) than beat those teams away but finish lower overall.
I'd rather finish in the higher in the league and not beat certain teams away (nb our home record against them in recent seasons is good) than beat those teams away but finish lower overall.
So, Mark, are you using that evidence to back up the original statement that I was contradicting? James' claim that the managers aren't as important, and that people like Ferguson wouldn't be able to make players at lower clubs better players? Are you backing that up?
It's a matter of opinion about how a player might turn out under the tutelage of certain coaches, and in my opinion, if Moyes were in SAF's position in the early 90s, he wouldn't have known what to do with Beckham even if he had have signed him from Tottenham, and he wouldn't have brought in a player like Giggs. He probably would have loved the shit out of Butt's back passes though.
I get absolutely hounded for some of my OPINION based ideas, but James comes out with "Coaches don't make that much of a difference" and it slides?
It's a matter of opinion about how a player might turn out under the tutelage of certain coaches, and in my opinion, if Moyes were in SAF's position in the early 90s, he wouldn't have known what to do with Beckham even if he had have signed him from Tottenham, and he wouldn't have brought in a player like Giggs. He probably would have loved the shit out of Butt's back passes though.
I get absolutely hounded for some of my OPINION based ideas, but James comes out with "Coaches don't make that much of a difference" and it slides?
"Yeah, Ferguson's a better manager. Bullshit."
James,
You come out with some crackers. My favourite up to now was the time you claimed Everton would definately, without a shadow of a doubt, win the league if they loaned Jack Rodwell to LA Galaxy during the summer.
However, you've finally managed to reach new heights of Herman Munster dozy-as-fuckness if, with a straight face, you seriously maintain that a guy who dragged Scottish minnows Aberdeen above Rangers and Celtic and led them to European glory, who led Utd to the league title after 27 yrs of waiting and went on to win a further 36 trophies, is no better than a guy who nearly got Preston promoted to the PL once and nearly got Everton to the CL once.
In your mind, the only differences between the two are that Moyes has had less money to spend and Fergies pubes are greyer? Here's a nice little snapshot of how or leaves the other in the shade, provided by our own David Moyes:
"When I was at Preston, Alex rang me out of the blue one afternoon to discuss a 14-year-old we had at the club. If I'm honest, I wasn't even sure of the boy's name but Alex knew all about him and was keen for him to go to United's academy. I found that a real eye-opener. With everything he had going on at first- team level and all the pressure that accompanies it, to be able to know such precise details of a young kid showed his attention to detail."
James,
You come out with some crackers. My favourite up to now was the time you claimed Everton would definately, without a shadow of a doubt, win the league if they loaned Jack Rodwell to LA Galaxy during the summer.
However, you've finally managed to reach new heights of Herman Munster dozy-as-fuckness if, with a straight face, you seriously maintain that a guy who dragged Scottish minnows Aberdeen above Rangers and Celtic and led them to European glory, who led Utd to the league title after 27 yrs of waiting and went on to win a further 36 trophies, is no better than a guy who nearly got Preston promoted to the PL once and nearly got Everton to the CL once.
In your mind, the only differences between the two are that Moyes has had less money to spend and Fergies pubes are greyer? Here's a nice little snapshot of how or leaves the other in the shade, provided by our own David Moyes:
"When I was at Preston, Alex rang me out of the blue one afternoon to discuss a 14-year-old we had at the club. If I'm honest, I wasn't even sure of the boy's name but Alex knew all about him and was keen for him to go to United's academy. I found that a real eye-opener. With everything he had going on at first- team level and all the pressure that accompanies it, to be able to know such precise details of a young kid showed his attention to detail."
Any idea who that player was, John?
"So, Mark, are you using that evidence to back up the original statement that I was contradicting? James' claim that the managers aren't as important, and that people like Ferguson wouldn't be able to make players at lower clubs better players? Are you backing that up?"
No, I didn't comment on what James said, I commented on what you said. Whether James was right or wong (and I haven't read his post - but from what you say I'd probably disagree with him) the fact remains that I still disgree with what you said.
No, I didn't comment on what James said, I commented on what you said. Whether James was right or wong (and I haven't read his post - but from what you say I'd probably disagree with him) the fact remains that I still disgree with what you said.
Afraid not Roman. The quote from Moyes was taken from here by the way:
/>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2057320/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-25-years-Manchester-United-What-best-ever.html
/>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2057320/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-25-years-Manchester-United-What-best-ever.html
So you're saying that just because SAF got some of his younger players from other clubs originally, he had nothing to do with how good they turned out to be? Are you saying that Beckham and Giggs would have turned out to be as good as they were if they had stayed with coaches of a mid-table club, and a club mostly playing 2nd and 3rd division football respectively for the first half of their careers?
Cheers, John.
"Are you saying that Beckham and Giggs would have turned out to be as good as they were if they had stayed with coaches of a mid-table club, and a club mostly playing 2nd and 3rd division football respectively for the first half of their careers?"
What I'm saying is, that those players were considered outstanding. That is why Alex Ferguson brought them in. Its not like he's some magician who turns average players into outstanding one's - and do I think that if Beckham had stayed at Spurs he'd have turned as good as he did? Yes. Giggs at City? Yes. They might have been sold and gone on elsewhere to accomplish their ambitions - but it would have been for a lot of money. A bit like Rooney (you know, the one that Englands best player at Euro 2002). Point is Roman, what Ferguson (or Rose, you know, the one that was actually coaching them ) did 20 years ago with that group of players what fantastic. It was forward thinking and big played a huge role in making Man Utd the force that it is today. BUT what I am saying, is that you can't do it now. As I asked before, if you can - why doesn't he?
What I'm saying is, that those players were considered outstanding. That is why Alex Ferguson brought them in. Its not like he's some magician who turns average players into outstanding one's - and do I think that if Beckham had stayed at Spurs he'd have turned as good as he did? Yes. Giggs at City? Yes. They might have been sold and gone on elsewhere to accomplish their ambitions - but it would have been for a lot of money. A bit like Rooney (you know, the one that Englands best player at Euro 2002). Point is Roman, what Ferguson (or Rose, you know, the one that was actually coaching them ) did 20 years ago with that group of players what fantastic. It was forward thinking and big played a huge role in making Man Utd the force that it is today. BUT what I am saying, is that you can't do it now. As I asked before, if you can - why doesn't he?
Beckham outstanding? Nah. Very good with a floppy haircut. Then somehow his celebrity made him a role model and a leader which says more about society than it does for this razor blade salesman who put off-field interests above that of a career that didn't scale the heights of his contemporaries. By the way, I'm not a fan.
Moyes record at Anfield isn't because they have better players and it's not because he's a bad manager . Man City (when they weren't that good) beat the best team in league at Old Trafford a number of times.
The problem is Moyes goes defensive and negative against top 4 and the shite away from home.
The problem is Moyes goes defensive and negative against top 4 and the shite away from home.
Roman (195) - The overwhelming majority of managers/coaches, in any sport, don't matter. You can throw all their names in a hat, put on a blindfold and pick names and assign them to teams. Nothing much will change. Coach/manager is a grossly over-rated position (a mid-management position, by the way; Ferguson too).
I've said, and repeating, few count; Moyes and Ferguson among that few. But if Ferguson (or Pep, Mourhino, etc) is so much better a manager than Moyes explain to me how EFC would be better if he (or any of the others) took over as manager?
I'm the easiest guy to confince of most anything. How would we improve in the Table if one of the other top managers took over from Moyes? Same players, same financial situation. Ferguson et al would move us up the Table by their very presence? I'm all for it. Just explain how.
I've said, and repeating, few count; Moyes and Ferguson among that few. But if Ferguson (or Pep, Mourhino, etc) is so much better a manager than Moyes explain to me how EFC would be better if he (or any of the others) took over as manager?
I'm the easiest guy to confince of most anything. How would we improve in the Table if one of the other top managers took over from Moyes? Same players, same financial situation. Ferguson et al would move us up the Table by their very presence? I'm all for it. Just explain how.
JD (196) - My Man! Is it possible we haven't talked for a year or 2?
Speaking of crackers, "you claimed Everton would definately, without a shadow of a doubt, win the league if they loaned Jack Rodwell to LA Galaxy during the summer". Haha. You know good and well I said no such thing.
I talked Rodders on loan to Galaxy as part of a possible deal to get LD to Everton. I also proposed the deal would be good for Everton as teenage Rodwell would be playing during the off-season instead of sitting around.
Not sure what you're getting at with the rest of your post. I've said, and apparently keep having to repeat, I rate Ferguson. Not because of the silverware. But because he's done well with what he's had to work with talent-wise and done it consistenly.
However, you or anyone have to explain to me (and I'm ready to be convinced) how EFC would have faired better over these last 10 years with Ferguson in charge.
Or better, 18 points left to play for and in the FA Cup semis. Moyes out. Ferguson in. What would improve? I'm all for it. You tell me. What would improve?
Speaking of crackers, "you claimed Everton would definately, without a shadow of a doubt, win the league if they loaned Jack Rodwell to LA Galaxy during the summer". Haha. You know good and well I said no such thing.
I talked Rodders on loan to Galaxy as part of a possible deal to get LD to Everton. I also proposed the deal would be good for Everton as teenage Rodwell would be playing during the off-season instead of sitting around.
Not sure what you're getting at with the rest of your post. I've said, and apparently keep having to repeat, I rate Ferguson. Not because of the silverware. But because he's done well with what he's had to work with talent-wise and done it consistenly.
However, you or anyone have to explain to me (and I'm ready to be convinced) how EFC would have faired better over these last 10 years with Ferguson in charge.
Or better, 18 points left to play for and in the FA Cup semis. Moyes out. Ferguson in. What would improve? I'm all for it. You tell me. What would improve?
Gavin (170) - Don't know what you're getting at but I am impressed by a 70-word sentence. A first for me reading here.
(171) - Yes, I think over 38 games the best teams finish the highest. And they're the best because they have the most talent. Not sure why that's for dispute. Happens every year.
Or do you think we have the most talent, but Moyes is keeping us mid-table?
(171) - Yes, I think over 38 games the best teams finish the highest. And they're the best because they have the most talent. Not sure why that's for dispute. Happens every year.
Or do you think we have the most talent, but Moyes is keeping us mid-table?
Roman (162) - "It's called coaching, James."
That's it? You're pulling my leg, right? Ferguson made Ruud, Rooney, and Ronaldo better by his "coaching"? How about Cantona? Ferguson "coached" him to a ManU legend? Please.
Great players make themselves great. Not any coach or manager. A manager might point them in the right direction. That I believe. But nothing more. You send Ferguson (or Moyes) to QPR, QPR might evade relegation. But they're not storming up the Table until they get better talent in; whoever the manager is.
That's it? You're pulling my leg, right? Ferguson made Ruud, Rooney, and Ronaldo better by his "coaching"? How about Cantona? Ferguson "coached" him to a ManU legend? Please.
Great players make themselves great. Not any coach or manager. A manager might point them in the right direction. That I believe. But nothing more. You send Ferguson (or Moyes) to QPR, QPR might evade relegation. But they're not storming up the Table until they get better talent in; whoever the manager is.
Dennis - (143) - I'm open. Ferguson becomes our manager tomorrow. These last 18 points and The FA Cup. How better would we fare? Same roster, same financial situation. Ferguson improves us how?
Really, I'm open to improvement for our team. New manager Ferguson. We improve how? And why, incidentally?
Really, I'm open to improvement for our team. New manager Ferguson. We improve how? And why, incidentally?
Mark, you make good points, and I concede, Ferguson doesn't bring them through like he once did. Yes, Moyes brought through Rooney, but who else? Bottom line being, Ferguson is a much better manager, coach, organiser, disciplinarian than Moyes ever will be.
James, #365, utter garbage.
James, #365, utter garbage.
Didn't read your second response til now. If you think Ferguson didn't have anything to do with Rooney and Ronaldo, or even van Nistelrooy then you obviously don't rate coaches/managers at all do you. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're taking such a radical stance on coaching because you're on the other side of the argument. If not, let's get rid of Moyes now and give the job to Ange Postecoglou who will no doubt do the job for about 1/20th the price of Moyes. Then we can spend the saved money on some talented, self improving players.
Roman (371) - Um, "utter garbage"? You mean we'd be garbage if Fergy or one of the others took over? Really? We're not garbage now with Moyes. You're too radical for me brother.
I think they'd be fine representatives of the Club. Just not getting how we'd fare better with them in charge instead of Moyes.
How would we be better with one of them in charge Roman? I want us to be better. You do. We're in agreement there. Just, I'm not seeing how getting in one of the others instead of Moyes improves us.
Seemingly, you do. Enlighten me. I'm all for it. Moyes out! Fergy (or whoever) in. I'm stoked! Some manager other than Moyes, up the Table we sprint.
Roman, you got me fired up. Hit me. Bring on this magical manager who'll move us up the Table.
I think they'd be fine representatives of the Club. Just not getting how we'd fare better with them in charge instead of Moyes.
How would we be better with one of them in charge Roman? I want us to be better. You do. We're in agreement there. Just, I'm not seeing how getting in one of the others instead of Moyes improves us.
Seemingly, you do. Enlighten me. I'm all for it. Moyes out! Fergy (or whoever) in. I'm stoked! Some manager other than Moyes, up the Table we sprint.
Roman, you got me fired up. Hit me. Bring on this magical manager who'll move us up the Table.
Nothing else to do on a Saturday evening, James?
Roman (372) - "you're taking such a radical stance on coaching".
Slow your roll brother. My stance isn't radical. Most managers don't count. Any sport. They don't. Some do, Ferguson and Moyes among them.
You want this fellow Postecoglou given a go? Fine. Bold of you, radical even. But a bridge too far for me. I'll stick to a Moyes or Ferguson.
Let's get back to Fergy improving us. How?
Slow your roll brother. My stance isn't radical. Most managers don't count. Any sport. They don't. Some do, Ferguson and Moyes among them.
You want this fellow Postecoglou given a go? Fine. Bold of you, radical even. But a bridge too far for me. I'll stick to a Moyes or Ferguson.
Let's get back to Fergy improving us. How?
Roman - Ha!! Good one. What I was thinking of you.
Couldn't watch the game today because the misses insisted I go kite-flying with our grandson. Can you believe that? Fucking kite-flying! Yeah, I went. He had a ball. So OK.
But this is the shit the women should be doing, especially on game day. But our daughter was in class for ITIL certification (You fucking Brits!) and my wife "had" to go to Lowes to buy flowers for the Spring. She "had" to. Left me the the little rascal.
Fuck it. We had fun. And good for him, he couldn't just point at something and have women leap to as he's used to.
On the other hand, Gibson and me have kept our streak alive. Alas, Gibbo could only get us the draw we would have turned into 3 points if Flynn was there screaming at the TV. Ah well.
My grandson had fun. Little bastard.
Couldn't watch the game today because the misses insisted I go kite-flying with our grandson. Can you believe that? Fucking kite-flying! Yeah, I went. He had a ball. So OK.
But this is the shit the women should be doing, especially on game day. But our daughter was in class for ITIL certification (You fucking Brits!) and my wife "had" to go to Lowes to buy flowers for the Spring. She "had" to. Left me the the little rascal.
Fuck it. We had fun. And good for him, he couldn't just point at something and have women leap to as he's used to.
On the other hand, Gibson and me have kept our streak alive. Alas, Gibbo could only get us the draw we would have turned into 3 points if Flynn was there screaming at the TV. Ah well.
My grandson had fun. Little bastard.
I think he'd do it in a similar way to how he improved Aberdeen, or how Phil Jackson brought some success back to Los Angeles, or how Clive Woodward turned an absolutely disgusting rugby team into world champions. Superior coaching techniques and game plans.
Just keep watching as much as you can then, James. You could say the same for me, except it's a lazy Sunday arvo on the couch today. We're blessed in that we can head out Saturday night and me home by midnight kick-off.
Roman and James, this a rather bizarre exchange of polar opposite views. I tend to side with Roman.
James, if coaches are so worthless, why do they exist at all? Why not simply allow the players to do their own thing?
Did your grandson learn to fly a kite all by his "little bastard" self, or did somebody, horror of horrors, coach him?
Similarly, footballers will not learn how to play as a team all by themselves. Should club owners/chairmen simply pull 11 names out of a hat and say get on with it? That appears to be your argument. Would this work in any other industry?
Does nobody need to be told how to improve and/or how to do their job?
James, if coaches are so worthless, why do they exist at all? Why not simply allow the players to do their own thing?
Did your grandson learn to fly a kite all by his "little bastard" self, or did somebody, horror of horrors, coach him?
Similarly, footballers will not learn how to play as a team all by themselves. Should club owners/chairmen simply pull 11 names out of a hat and say get on with it? That appears to be your argument. Would this work in any other industry?
Does nobody need to be told how to improve and/or how to do their job?
Surely it's the coaches job to set the tactics not to teach the players how to play, after all they are probably already better footballers than the coach ever was.
The coach watches the opposition teams games, notes their strengths and weaknesses and passes that information onto his players and devises a plan to use his own team strengths to exploit the oposition weaknesses and plug up his own.
That's how it's done on Super Strikers anyway.
The coach watches the opposition teams games, notes their strengths and weaknesses and passes that information onto his players and devises a plan to use his own team strengths to exploit the oposition weaknesses and plug up his own.
That's how it's done on Super Strikers anyway.
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416 Posted 02/04/2012 at 14:23:48
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