Trouble is the bubble Moyes and Kenwright inhabit means all this ire bypasses them.

The performance on the SKY sofa a fortnight ago had them reminiscing about the last 10 years as halcyon days.

Unfortunately this has seeped deep enough into the fans psyche to become acceptable.

Only the Manu job offer will shift Moyes - this really is Moyes FC now.

You dont blame distin? you should, it was his fault.

Spot on Matt Garen. A player earning so many tens of thousands of pounds a week should be shot for making a mistake like that, Sunday league stuff. Likewise Seamus Coleman for that utterly moronic foul on Gerrard. But it was also Moyes' fault we lost. To be honest, after seeing how we sat back immediately after we scored, I was telling anyone who would listen that we would lose. It was a typical Moyes display, nick a goal then try and sit back on it. It's a small club mentality and has no place at EFC. Look at the difference between us and LFC yesterday. What did LFC do when they took the lead? THEY KEPT ON ATTACKING. They created how many chances in the closing stages? That's the differences, if you want to be a i=big club you have to show some balls. That will never happen with Moyes in charge. Him and Kenwright are turning us into a joke of a club.

David Moyes is held in high esteem by the TV and media, there again so was Steve Mcclaren when he was at Middlesborough.

Moyes is a SPINELESS GUTLESS COWARD... end of.

Moyes peaked on day 1 with his ' peoples club ' comment.

He has done his dash...It ain't what you do ( or don't ) It's the way that you do it.

The only person who should shoulder the blame is Moyes. If we feel that blame is worth the effort! He is the one who spoke to the team at half time. We never came out for the second half, at least not for long enough to let them believe that they could beat us. That is Moyes fault, nobody elses. Yes, we made some uncharacteristic mistakes, but they were from the pressure that we allowed them to exert on us.

We have a team who on their day can win any given game. Problem is that, when it is a pressure game, we just don't have what it takes. Is that the players fault? Well, I see that as the major flaw in our manager. He just does not have the winning mentallity. You have to gamble to be a winner.

The important bit though is knowing how to gamble. When, where and to what extent you gamble, this is where Moyes fails every time. He just wont take "that chance". Instead, he plays it safe and ends up losing because that is the nature of the businesss.

Couldn't agree more, Brian. It's ingrained in our clubs nature to bottle it against the shite but it would have been nice for once for Moyes to come out and say "we don't care what the bookies say, the league and form says otherwise and we are going to do our best to prove it. We are better than they are."

On a side note, respect to Distin for holding his hands up and taking blame for the loss, even though it was a collective failure. He didn't shy away and he deserves credit for that at least.

"Turning us into a joke of a club" We already are....as well as having "a small club mentality" at least we had a day out!

Kenwrong a joker, Moyes a bluffer.

We should change our motto as obviously "Anything but the best is good enough"!

So Mancini saying the title is all over means that is what he is saying to the players. Yeah right.

Can you lot grow up and learn about psychology. Make Liverpool overconfident in public, false sense of security and in the dressing room in the privacy of team meetings, tell the truth, we can have this lot.

Joke - you lot are for believing for one minute that what Moyes said to the media was what he said to the player. Get real all of you

Phil, you're absolutely right.
It's all mind games and what's said in public isn't the same as what is said behind closed doors to the players.

The problem is, it doesn't go with the Moyes is a negative twat feelings amongst a lot of people on here.

They know it isn't what he said behind closed doors but they choose to ignore it because it doesn't suit their argument.

Well lads, in that case, I wonder what he said at half-time to produce THAT peformance?
And Jamie, you seriously think "Moyes is a negative twat" is a feeling and not a statement of fact?

Phil, Jamie - Mancini is saying that because they are 2 points (or 5 when UTD win game in hand) behind United. Do you think he would be as negative in a one off cup game?

The truth (as much as you dont want to admit it) is that we will never win anything under Moyes because he does not have a winning mentality. It has been said on here many many times and it is true - We only win against the big teams when there is no pressure on. Name one BIG game that we have won under Moyes' reign?

Villareal at home? Flopped
FA cup final v Chelsea? Flopped
Carling cup semi in Goodison v Chelsea? Flopped
Fiorentina Europa cup quarter at home? Brave efort but ultimately flopped.
Last weeks Derby - flopped
40 away games versus Arse, Pool, UTD and Chelsea for the last 10 years - flopped.

When are you guys going to accept it?? Moyes is the problem. Man of great integrity, has done loads for the club, and i certainly dont like saying it but he has to go.

It's a disgrace that Moyes is still here but we've only got ourselves to blame.If we want him out then we need to prove it by demonstration or staying away for the remaining home games,this is something the media and Kenright can't ignore.

No Phil, i think Moyes is negative in some (most) things he does.

Do i think its negative to say we were the underdogs? No.

Its called mind games.
Do i think people overeact to things Moyes says? Most definitely.

seamus, your right, these are the facts. why dosnt the media go on about those. DM must be the luckiest manager in the prem. no chance of being sacked. Be a man DM and resign. its gone on far too long.

Phil,

I'd take your point there except Moyes has publicly stated Everton have no right to beat them with the money they've spent over the years. He classes a draw against them as a right touch.

Seamus, true facts you have stated there mate.
Wait till this coming weeks lovefest, when Moyes will roll out all his what a great club they are bollocks and sit back for a comfy 1-0 defeat.
He has done a good job for us Moyes but I am sick to death of outsiders telling us he is better than what he actually is and this has led him to believe his own hype, but if he thinks he will get a bigger job than the one he has now he is dreaming, Man Utd and co won't touch him with a barge poll, because in those big games that matter he fails time and again because he never has any balls to go for it once in a while.

Everton have confirmed Drenthe was left out for a disciplinary issue. So all those complaining about Moyes leaving him out now know. If he can't get his act together for our biggest game of the season then it just shows the character of him and we would be better off getting rid.

I'd take Rafa no problem, imagine if we had him,t hat lot over the park would be running with fear. Whether he could do it without money is another thin but we wouldn't have ridiculous capitulations like yesterday's, he has a great record in tournament football. Pls he'd be able to attract the calibre of players that Moyes can't. 10 million for Alonso v 15 million for Fellaini. All his buys weren't the best but hwo many have been sold without a profit. Compare their team of 2009 with Alonsos Macherano Torres Arbeloa and Reina in with their one now. At least our vintage of those years could match up to them and get results, not like the spineless pathetic squad we have now.

Ian # 811 in your last sentence are you talking about Moyes or Drenthe? :)

If Drenthe was late for the coach, well he can just fuck off now as far as Im concerned. Free transfer or not..

Ian (#811) the problem is Ian, we will never know what Drenthe did to be left out for a Disciplinary issue. We all know what Moyes is like.

A team of bottlers manged by a negative manager is not the best combination. The most annoying thing is just like groundhog day as Seamus elludes to nothing will ever change.

10 more years indeed

After 5 mins of the second half i thought about logging on to Paddy Power and backing Liverpool to win. I knew it was coming. We sat so far back it was unreal. When i saw Carragher in possession 20 yards into our half and under no pressure you know something is wrong. That was in the first half.

No money to improve things in the summer so it will be same again next year. The team is ageing and stale. Its time for a massive clear out and try to freshen things up a bit. If it means selling Rodwell, Jags and Fella to raise 30m i'd do it.

Neville, Distin and Cahill are now squad players at this level. We badly missed Pienaar and even at 30 i would sign him up. Drenthe is a matchwinner but he's not worth the 75k he's looking.

As for Moyes well i've always been a fan but yesterday was hard to take. We just rolled over for them. Its time for a huge change at our club but i cant see it happening. Looks like the 95 cup win is the only success i can cling to for the forseeable future.

Will someone please tell Moyes that being a sore loser does not make you a winner.

The only thing that i can tell that Moyes is excellent at is managing the fan's expectations. He keeps our expectations well and truely under controle. Why would it be so bad to have claimed we were favourites yesterday ? But NO ! He kept the suporters down and supressed our enthusiasm.

He said "LFC have beat us twice already this season so they must be favourites," and Mr Round reminded us to be afraid, "they've got so many fantastic players," That's why the fans were practically silent yesterday, our own management did that to us.

Remember before the City game when claiming he had brought, "a Knife to gunfight," IMO was a sacking offence. How on earth did he think that was going to motivate his players if he shows publicly how little he thinks of them.

Futhermore have you ever wondered why we have spent 10 years looking up the league at the Reds? they lose we draw they win we draw they draw we lose. the only reason we are above them at the moment is that they are so poor.

Why did the players run out of steam in the second half ? He must have been running them into the ground all week for Felly and Bainsy to get cramp. Cardiff didn't run out of steam last month they pushed them right to the wire. Were Cardiff better prepared than Everton ? Have Cardiff got more money than Everton ? Have Cardiff got better players than Everton?

Moyes won nothing as a player, he has won nothing as a manager and he never will because the man is a coward. He is afraid of success.

Have Wigan beat Utd, and LFC this month ? Did Blackburn beat Utd at Old Trafford Did QPR beat LFC ? Away from Goodison he has not won against the so called 'Big 4' in over 40 atempts. 40 ! If he would just let them play to their strengths instead of being so negitive all the time. What is the worst that could happen? Yes, we might beat one of them. But, he won't allow that because we, the fans, might start to to get above our station and believe we could actually win something and that goes against his nature. Why does he keep our expectations under such tight controle? The reason he is because if Everton were to win something he would then have to try to win something else and when we didn't, we would start to say, "he has took us as far as he can," then his cushy £60k per week job would be in jeapody. He won't stand for that and that is why we will never win anything with Moyes. He is far too shrewed to put himself under that kind of pressure.

Sorry I think there's something wrong with my laptop, did somebody just say they'd take Benitez to manage Everton?

"I have witnessed some shameful capitulations in over 40 years with Everton, but yesterday beats the lot."

Not sure you need to indulge in such hyperbole, Brian. It wasn't a capitulation — we let a 1-0 lead slip with a rare defensive error and a less rare instance of poor defending at a set-piece — and there have certainly been many, many worse "capitulations" in my 26 years as a Blue than yesterday.

And the pre-game psychology of underdogs was surely probably aimed at the opposition. We aren't privy to what was said behind the dressing room door before and during the game. I expect it was completely opposite but we can't really speculate, can we?

We're all still bruised from yesterday and we can muse on the failure of David Moyes's teams to win in big games but let's keep things in perspective: two sides played badly, one shot themselves in one foot, the other shot themselves in both.

Lyndon you are not far off the mark but please explain to me why under Moyes we constantly bottle it against tha shower of shite from across the park. It hurts like fuck.

please explain to me why under Moyes we constantly bottle it against tha shower of shite from across the park.

I can't, mate. The longer it goes on, the longer you feel it's down to Moyes (the Anfield debacle certainly was but I can't help feeling we'd have lost anyway even if he'd fielded his strongest side) but I don't have the answers.

I'm not defending Moyes for yesterday, just trying to get some perspective into the equation. Calling Moyes a "loser" makes for a good attention-grabbing headline but it's patently untrue on its face. Look at his record.

Now, when it comes to the big games there may be something to argue but "Moyes the loser of big games" isn't quite as catchy, is it?

You all know about the Muamba case. Yesterday, at the game between Livorno and Pescara, in the Italian 2nd division, a player collapsed on the pitch. Like Muamba he was taken to hospital but for him, it was the fin2al whistle at the age of 25 and not a replay which is hopefully what Patrice has achieved. All league 1 and 2 matches were subsequently suspended.

Rather puts yesterday?s events at Wembley in perspective, although I would like to express my respect for all the fans during the minutes silence before the game. One could have heard a pin drop?..I suppose that?s the reason I?m so proud to be a Scouse and particularly an Evertonian.

By chance, I watched the Heysel tragedy unfold with a Juventus fan. What can one do, what does one say on such an occasion?

I admit to feeling bitter about the consequences of that disaster as it was hard to take at the time. Would we Blues, should we Toffees have gone on to better things?

Bill Shankly once said "football is not a matter of life and death, it?s more important than that? or words to that effect. I think the answer to that is pretty clear when we consider the above

There was of course another anniversary yesterday which involved the "Titanic? As a retired Marine Radio Officer, that got under the skin too.

The "sparks? job no longer exists due to technical developments (satellites)

Also no longer in existence is the old traditional Swiss footbal club, Xamax, They?ve gone down the chute this year due to bankruptcy.

Cheer up fellow blues, "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day!" ? although personally, I think I would have preferred it if we?d stood and fought?.

Your right to ask that Paul, Newcastle, QPR and Wigan have shown them no respect in the last few weeks and had a go and come away with victories, yet we back off them like they are some latter day Brazil or footballing Harlem Globetrotters. It pisses me off and Moyes is the root cause. Man U will no doubt pick up 3 of their easiest points this season AGAIN too.

Dan Forde 821,well said. Think it is a perfect summary of the mind set of the manager.

I watched lpool fall apart at Newcastle 2 weeks ago , and when Reina was sent off and Carroll stormed down the tunnel i thought this will be our chance to beat them on the big stage as they are in desperate straights and a state of chaos.

Surely our players must have felt this and believed that on current form and recent results that we were going in with great belief in ourselves to win. Surely our manager would use this to our advantage.

A week later and the usual doubts and lack of confidence had come into my mind that usually occur whenever we play L pool and i then expect to lose. The reason for this was two fold:

1) Our Manager telling the world that we had lost twice to lpool this season and therefore were underdogs.

2) His assistant telling the world that Liverpool have wonderful players.

Now I know that they would not be telling this to the players and would be using whatever motivational techniques that they employ; however, if reading comments such as this erodes the confidence of a supporter, then surely it must enter the psyche of the players. Hence a negative attitude is encouraged and doubts enter the mind which then affect decisions on the pitch.

You cannot legislate for individual mistakes and anyone who has played football will know that they can happen to any player in any game. However, the reaction to these instances can be managed and dealt with.

Liverpool use their mistake to galvanize; we fall apart.

The game was ultimately lost as a result of our lack of confidence and belief in our ability to win. This is the responsibility of the manager and his staff.

Why, oh why, whenever we go 1-0 up do we start to retreat in 10-yard increments throughout games, leaving the forward isolated? Why not go for the killer 2nd goal against a jittery Liverpool (consider their defending for our goal!!!). Imagine their thoughts when we scored what was an awful goal from their point of view with what's happened to them recently.

It was not the opposition pushing us back, it was our mental state thinking "keep what we have".

The win at Sunderland was fantastic as we kept pushing on, so why did we not learn from this and try to repeat that style of play. I do not accept that we were not able to do this against Liverpool yesterday because they pressed us. We could have over-run them in the manner we did to Sunderland but I believe our mental attitude when playing the likes of Liverpool prevents that.

Again, this is down to management.

I couldn't argue with the starting line-up as it had served well before; however, mentally we were awful, hence some of our players didn't turn up and we ended up losing.

If the manager is going into important games with the belief that we are underdogs then why do we not play like underdogs ie attack the opposition, play without fear or doubt and try to do this for as long as physically possible. If we lose then so be it, it was expected.

Unfortunately, we went down without a fight and therin is the conundrum of David Moyes.

He cannot manage expectation. This may also be the reason we are poor for the first half of each season when hopes are high, thats another issue however...........

If everyone reading this post doesn't think psychology is important in professional sport then why do all top golfers, tennis players etc employ sports psychologists? Or closer to home, will Man Utd win the league over Man City this season because they are a better team or because mentally they are stronger? I believe this season it is the latter.

Anyone think we may have a go at Utd next week or play for a 0-0??

Dan #821.. I remember it fondly. Only difference yesterday was we turned up with a pea shooter instead of a knife. Ah well at least Moyes can enjoy his hols soon with his healthy bank balance.

MOYES OUT!

"Do Ii think it's negative to say we were the underdogs? No.

It's called mind games."

Mind games for dummies. A mother telling her two-year-old that he's not getting any pudding until he's eaten his greens is a more complex and less obvious psychological ploy. Saying, "Nah, they're the favourites and the pressure's on them", doesn't automatically shift the pressure on to them, does it?

There was only one team who looked like they couldn't cope with the occasion yesterday, and the only 'mind fucking' Moyes managed was in his half-time team-talk ? judging by the second-half no-show.

I have to say that Moyes' constant references to Everton being the underdogs or poorer for the fact that we have no money (as well as being embarrassing) will inevitably affect the players. Whatever the intention, it will give the players a sense of inferiority which makes them psychologically fragile and lacking in confidence. This stood out a mile yesterday.

The game was all but won in the first half because we were gifted a goal by a poor redshite defence (in fact a poor redshite team) But after their mistake they started to work harder and although they didn't appear to have the wherewithal to get anything back they kept on plugging away.

What happened after OUR mistake....our heads went down and the gameplan which until then was working very well went out of the window.

If you keep telling players they are second best because if we had more money they wouldn't be at the club then this will eventually sink in and they will inevitably play like second best especially when they encounter a shock like a hardly deserved equalizer. We lose countless games in that way, the away game at Arsenal last season is as good an example as was yesterday.

You have to make players believe that they are good enough to be at the club they play for and deserve their place in the team. There is nothing wrong with saying that if we had more money we could have a chance of getting better players but if a manager wants to maximize performance from the players he has at his disposal he has to add a rider to that and say that that nevertheless he has players he would want to keep even if he had all the cash in the world in his transfer pot. He wouldn't have to mention names, that would be counterproductive. He would just need to give every player every inducement to believe that they were one of the players he was talking about and every reason to prove it. In this respect, as much as I admire him for many of the things he has done for the club, Moyes has failed miserably as a man-manager and a motivator.

Sometimes I wonder if Moyes' predisposition to say such things is really aimed at insulating himself from failure. But he needs to learn that it is not merely failure itself which brought tears to my eyes yesterday, but the manner of the failure and once again the failure yesterday seemed to be in the form of a psychological surrender in the face of adversity in one of the 'big' games that matters most.

I am lucky enough to be old enough to have seen trophies paraded around Goodison but what got to me more than anything yesterday was the disappointment on the kid's faces after the game. There were thousands of kids there yesterday, there were many on our coach and by kids I mean fans not even old enough to remember 1995. They sang on the coach, they sang outside the stadium, they sang in the concourse and they sang especially, with their mums and dads, in the concourse at half-time when it looked like we were heading for a relatively easy victory.

Only to have their hopes dashed once again. No, failure is always disappointing but you can live with it if you do not have to witness a total capitulation like we did yesterday. There can even be pride in failure but the most hurtful thing of all was that there was no pride to be had at all yesterday, except for the supporters, especially the kids who will never, perhaps, see a trophy delivered to their door by the club they so fervently support as they did yesterday.

I have generally been a Moyes supporter although I have often found a need to criticize his actions at times. But notwithstanding the individual player mistakes that were made yesterday I have to place the burden of responsibility firmly at Moyes' door this time. He has built a team that is capable on its day of beating anybody in the Premiership but which is so psychologically brittle that it can not be depended upon to deliver the goods when it matters.

Moyes has to take responsibility for that and either he has to change (which perhaps he cannot now do) or we have to change manager, even though that would carry with it its own perils.

On the way home yesterday I consoled myself with memories of better times. But all these kids have is memories of shitty disappointment and these kids are the future of the club. If they fade away then all is lost. Old timers like me will fade away as fate and time demands and then there will be nobody left to tell the kids what it used to be like and, even though they sometimes failed, Everton were always something to be proud of. These kids cannot be expected to see it that way. Sometimes history becomes too ancient, too remote to be of any value. And these kids minds will not be too far away from reaching that conclusion right now.

John Daley, I agree it's not very clever but my point was, what he tells the players and what he says to the press are most probably two different things.

People on here just love to pick holes and twist whatever he says. Some of it justified, most of it isn't.

Moyes just pack your bags and go, thank you for everything but goodbye, time is up my son.

Losing three times to them in one season?
Won nothing in 10 years.....
Mostly negative, boring football.
Time for a change now.
Moyes doesn't know how it really feels to be a blue, if he did he would have had the team really have a go yesterday.

Jamie Barlow.

While they may be two different things in some ways you are ignoring the propensity of people to indulge in 'double-think'. This occurs when nobody knows what statement is true, ie) 'is he only saying that because I know he knows I know......', etc

It's a bit like an employer telling you individually you're great but who then pronounces that he needs a better workforce if only he could get one. It's not easy for people to consider that both statements can be correct. You are never really sure what he thinks about you, whether he would consider sacking you for somebody better.

Consistency is the most important thing. Redknapp has said similar things about Spurs. He has said it is hard to compete with the 'big boys' due to a lack of money for transfers. But at the same time he never tires of telling us how good he thinks his players are.

Both of his statements are true, nobody gets hurt or suffers and everybody knows where they are with him. Saying different things to different people can be very confusing and unsettling because you can never, ever be certain which version is true. It is human nature to be defensive, suspicious and to think the worst.

Yes, we lost, that means at worst we came 4th in the FA Cup, We're currently 7th in the league, a big disappontment maybe but though we sing we are the greatest team in the world the only reason we can actually do that is with an asterisk that says at the bottom:

"The greatest team in the world because this is a squad that has been built and trained by David Moyes and each player has a role that compliments the other members of the team, we do not buy success like lesser teams, we grow it."

I remember Bobby Robson once saying to a fan on a fan forum who was questioning his tactics and he replied with one of the best statements about football I think I have ever heard... he said "It's all very well choosing how your 11 men should play and what passing moves they should use, but you must remember that there another 11 men whose job it is to stop you playing those moves."

It's easy to think we would do better with someone else in charge (well, it appears it is for you few)... but do you not think that if we did get some amazing manager in with whatever compensation we would receive, we could just as easily sink to relegation, maybe a few divisions, maybe be stuck down there like Leeds?

No, because we are Everton, unlike any other team in the country Everton fans have to be retirement age to remember such a thing being the case... but it could very easily be the case, it only takes a few months and a bad manager to see the big teams drop, we've all seen it happen...

We don't have a bad manager, we have a great manager who has never done us wrong. We have a great manager who knows that we are a great club, I can't really see it would be a possibility to replace him with a manager as great who would also know what a great club we are, managers as great just don't exist in this country, foreign managers... well, please lets not go down that track!

If anyones got a better alternative then so be it but if Bill Kenwright's saying he wants to wait until there's someone who wants to invest £500M in the club and Dave Moyes keeps the situation improving (this is the third time at Wembley in 3 years, all against £500M clubs) then in the long term we are alot more healthy than other clubs... even Newcastle who although they are in 4th this year, is it really going to happen year on year? Even if it does this will be because of their loyal support and superior stadium... but it wont, they're probably still mounting up debt.

And my final point... at least we didn't concede 5 like Spurs.

Dan #043
Wow.. dont really know where to start..
I hate Newcastle, but they broke even this year and will make a profit next year, without any Europe..

You say we came 4th in the FA Cup ?? Whatever your smoking or drinking.. put me down for a session please.. who came 3rd ?? does goal difference count....

This article is utterly ridiculous to say the least. Moyes the loser? . Absolutely outreagous. Yeah, I agree, the man can be a negative bastard at times and he gets on my wick just like anyone, but surely you cannot be serious?

Do you honestly believe he is telling his players what he is saying to the media? Of course not, he'll be saying just what we're thinking. 'These are shite, let's fucking do them in'.

At the end of the day, yesterday was a 2 half game. First half we showed ambition, the second we were just poor. As somebody quoted above, The shite shot themselves in the foot, while we shot ourselves in both. Neither team played well, the game was decided due to terrible mistakes.

At the end of the day it's all money, and we have none of it. Moyes has done all he can with the funds he's been given. Hats off to the fella because 10 years ago, we had no money, and we were shite.

And as for the nob who said we flopped against Fiorentina at Goodison, you can fuck off, and review that performance. Because as I recall, we pulled back a 2 goal aggregate defecit.

In Moyes We Trust.

Have to agree with Dave Roberts in this and other threads. Both teams had problems, in fact no team is ever 100% going into any game, but Liverpool did not feel sorry for themselves. That's why they are winners. I do not accept we are forever bridesmaids, they are the spawn of satan or whatever nonsence. That is only excuses and excuses are for cowards.

Ok there's a few Daves going round but I agree with all Daves.

Definition of LOSER -

someone or something that is marked by consistently or thoroughley bad quality performance ie dont go and watch Everton they are consistently poor.

Dan San

"And my final point... at least we didn't concede 5 like Spurs"

Who's got beat by the most goals this season at OT?

Moyes: Right boys (Insert team) got stuffed 6-0 here this season. anything less than that's a right touch, now get out there and defend like your lives are on the line.

Absolutely shocking logic. Have you ever played any sport, ever?

The taking part bit goes out the window after your last sports day at infant school mate.

Mark, I think Dan San is wrong. We came 3rd in the FA cup, because as he said, we didn't concede 5 like Spurs.

Do we get a lap of honour at the next home game for coming 3rd in the FA Cup?

What does the trophy look like?

To laud the opposition in public was a piss weak attempt at reverse psychology. I can even see the RS mind doctor actually using that kind ridiculous naivete to raise their spirits.

Moyes and Round would only compound their stupidity by using an opposite view behind closed doors. That scenario would confuse our own players at a time when they looked for reassurance.

If Moyes had to show his stupidity he might as well have used that last totally useless show of defiance with "Look lads, they have only got two legs, same as you."

What's wrong with saying they are favourites when they have just twatted us 3-0? What should he have said?

He said the exact same thing before we wiped the floor with Sunderland, why now is being used against him and it wasn't then? I know, because we didn't win.

All these lilly livered weak willed delicate minds players we have on our team, it's a wonder we win any game. All these ickle wickle simple egos who listen to the manager and worry about the "big boys"

They all froze and shit themselves, that's the be all and end all of it, the better players shit themselves and we had no one on the bench to change the shithouses for.

As a Liverpool born and bred BlueNose of over 50 years standing, I can honestly say that I would rather watch paint dry than watch another Moyes kop-out. Tactically Inept, Defensive, Dithering, Dire, Dour, Davey serves up unmotivated DROSS week after week after week with the ODD, and I mean very ODD, good result thrown in especially when they don't really matter.

But when the BIG games come the BOTTLER cops out. He sends out his teams 'not to lose and to keep it tight and just hold on and try to nick one' or KITAHTNO as we all know and HATE it; pathetic to play I am sure and absolutely pathetic to watch as we all know.

Look at how they backed off against Liverpool once they were one-up, that's not coincidence ? that's MOYES'S ONLY TACTIC. He thinks a draw is a great result against his 'betters' ? in Moyes's OWN words.

He is finished at Everton. His pathetic surrender to Liverpool in THREE games this year, especially the last League match even more so than the Cup debacle, has sealed his fate with Evertonians, I am certain (if this blog is anything to go by). No matter what the sycophantic, lick-spittle media bleat about him.

I think we should give up Dave - how the standards the likes of you and I adhere to have fallen
Sad

Since January we've won many more than we've lost; we've played exciting attacking football; we've a defence that looks solid...we've played 22 won 11 drawn 6 and lost 5; against Arsenal, Spurs, Bolton and Liverpool twice

... those are good stats... only Manchester City, Manchester United and Arsenal have better since Jan - in contrast LFC's stats are relegation form

I'm gutted beyond belief that we can't do it against Liverpool and my reasoning is we show them much too much respect... and that cancels out all the good stuff.

The team that played Sunderland off the park on their own manor did so with panache and by playing neat possession, attractive football and it was a team without Pienaar, without Donovan... and without Drenthe - it was more or less the same team we all saw surrender after Distin's unfortunate error (When 8 of the Everton 11 were in Liverpool's half). We froze - we shat ourselves - we bottled it against a very poor team.

Kevin
Sorry mate can you list the games we've played exciting attacking football ?
Just list them since January cos before that there wasn't one.
Remember, I think by definition, a list is more than one ??

Can you write than in English John?

Kevin.
You said we've played exciting attacking football.
I just wanted to know when.
Thought it was an easy question

John... how about Everton 2 Chelsea 0, Everton 2 Swansea 0, Sunderland 0 Everton 4, Everton 2 Sunderland 0?

... and the games we stole Everton 1 Man City 0... Everton 2 Fulham 1

That was an easy answer

Everton are 7th.

Can anyone honestly see any of the clubs above us clamouring to employ Moyes?


No- neither can I.

Well we certainly won those 4 games.
We have played 20 odd.
Of the 4 you mentioned I would say we showed some nice touches in parts of both Sunderland games
But you think in those 4 games we played exciting attacking football ?
Kevin we're obviously from a different era.
Its a shame you think those 4 games were so memorable.

Shame you forgot them John

Knee jerk bullsh!t from the anti Moyes brigade.. Moyes says what he says to the media for good reason.

I would say the same in his position in order to take external pressure off his players.

You have no idea what Moyes says to his players in private so you aren't entitle to comment IMO.

Drew above


On Saturday, we suffered defeat by what the military would call friendly fire.

I have had more than enough of Moyes and am more than happy to risk him walking out.

There are other managers. I like Karl Robinson at MK Dons. He wins most of the matches he manages.

Kevin,

so we've played that style of football on average once a month over the past four months.

Surely a trophy of some kind is in order for such a herculean effort.

No doubt I'll be called a Moysiah, or apologist or whatever wanky term is 'in' on Toffeeweb these days- but it just seems fair to me that if you heap blame on a manager if his team get beat - then surely it's only fair you praise when his team wins, and we've been winning recently... as the stats highlight.

In my opinion - yes, Moyes is to blame for Saturday's debacle and that blame goes right back to when he made six changes at Anfield in a game that was very winnable. He gave the worst Liverpool team in my memory (which goes back to 1966) the impression that they can turn us over any time they like - and guess what - they did.

On the day, we froze, we bottled it and some of that blame has to lie with the manager - even the most dedicated Moyes supporter must see that

I'd like to get rid of Moyes - I'd like Guus Hiddink or Sir Alex... even 'the special one' - forget it - they won't come - we'll either end up with someone like Megson, 'Big Sam' or an untried Championship manager up for a challenge - and it might work out for the best... or it might be another Walter Smith or Mike Walker

But there's this nagging doubt in the back of my mind... we're winning more than we lose... we're looking comfortable with the ball again - we're scoring goals and it's a World Class Centre Forward who's doing it and we don't concede many.

So do we sack the bloke who's been responsible for much of this?

I'm not so sure...

And good old bovine dumb from the dolt brigade.

Drew I have no doubt you WOULD say the same in his position, but all that means is we would be equally unfuckingsuccessful with you in charge - well done!

'External pressure?'

What like 'Moyes blames players'?

(Jesus, did he think ANY of that crap out?)

You say..

"You have no idea what Moyes says to his players in private so you aren't entitle to comment IMO"

Yes well done Sexy Rexy - "get out of that!" eh?

Well (and complicated a concept as this is, try and get your tiny melon around it) whatever he is saying 'in private'...IT DOESN'T FUCKING WELL WORK!

Drew O'Neall said:

"You have no idea what Moyes says to his players in private so you aren't entitled to comment IMO. "

You are right: we have no idea what he says to his players in private, but the resultant effect is we always sit back deep with the attitude of "let's see what we can get".

So that either means Moyes is telling them to do that OR he is saying the opposite and they are just ignoring him.

Either way, he needs to get it sorted.

Repeating on what everyone has said, I honestly believe the only difference between the two teams on Saturday was the mentality.

Unfortunately Ming Kenny has a winning one, Moyes doesn't.

If we carried out a Death or Glory 2nd half display, I still wouldn't be pissed off now sitting in work scowling at the RS around me.

Saying this, I would say almost every season Moyes has improved the quality of the team but he has not improved on his tactics or his attitude. I really hope he can learn from this.

Never forgot them Kevin cos I actually watched them.
Certainly I knew we won them
But to be honest they never registered on my mind because I didn't class them as games where we played exciting attacking football.
You obviously thought we did and good on you.
Our opinions differ.
Good results but exciting ??

Drew

I am not anti Moyes.

Over the seasons i think that on the whole he manages well. I am just trying to get the point across that i believe he is limited when it comes to the most important games and his record at Everton over the years proves this.

I agree we do not know what he tells the players in private. However whatever he said at half time on Saturday certainly didnt have the desired effect as the performance in the second half showed.

The failure to go for the second goal in the first half left us vulnerable to the individual errors that can occur in a football match and eventually did happen with Distin.



The frustration of everyone posting comes because deep down we all know this was our big chance to put our neighbours on their ear and we failed miserably by not taking the initiative after we scored.

Its not a one off as it happens time and time again with Moyes and whenever we can get a lead we sit back. Its been happening for 5 years or more so its not simply the players we have now but the mentality of the coaching.

How many games at Goodison over the years have we been sitting comfortably in our seats with half an hour to go thinking this is won. Bet its not many.

Kevin, I agree with you, the manager has to take some of the blame but as usual with so many on here, they totally overlook the poor showings of the players and place all the blame on Moyes' doorstep...why?

Did he tell Distin, instead of simply putting the ball out, try and hit is 30 yards with your poorer foot? Did he tell Coleman to get himself sent off by hacking Stevie GBH down, when he was going nowhere?

Did he tell Drenthe to have that extra shot the night before?

Yes he probably told them to sit back...and you know what? It was working until Distin committed Hari kari. Yes he is to blame for the sitting back, but they didn't look like scoring after we absorbed the initial 15 minutes of their second half attack.

Once they made it 1-1, we were done for. Absolutely no-one on the bench to change the game, they had Bellany, Kuyt and Rodriquez.....we had Anichebe and fucking McFadden!!!!

While we're talking mind games..
Might be worth noting Carragher's comments after the match. Something like.. Moyes said the whole country were against us today, which galvanised us....

Somebody forgot to tell him which team to psych up..
Silly Round

Tony 221, he may well have told Drenthe EXACTLY that.

Problem is (nb: as Moyes knew when taking the player on loan) the player has a record of not giving a flying shite about what managers think.

Moyes choice was don't take a talented but (PROVEN) mad, piss-head, shit-stirrer on loan, or DO take a talented but mad, piss-head, shit-stirrer on loan.

Moyes chose the latter, then gets narked when the player doesn't carry on like Bobby Charlton.

Like signing Pienaar and then getting pissed off with him because he won't..be taller.

Tony thats crap.Moyes set up the team not to lose. He could have played Straq, he put a full back on when we lost a goal, waited till we went behind to put a forward on..
How many times have we seen it?? Dejavu..
The difference is that Dalglish went out to win it. He didn't play for extra time. We did.

We had three forwards on the bench and used one for the last three minutes. End of story. End of Moyes.

Tony J - you're right, especially your last paragraph. The most frustrating thing to me is all we needed to do is move up 20 or so meters, keep possession outside of the Liverpool area - use width- get the ball into the box - they were flapping at the back.

Their Goalie must have thought it was Xmas - all he had to do in the second half is pick his bag up from the back of the net and jump up and down when they scored - pathetic excuse for a performance from Everton.

I've never been so gutted - not just at the result, but at the performance...

As to you question - why all the blame on Moyes?

Certainly not from me, not all the blame... he doesn't come out of this one with any glory but it wasn't him who was playing suicidal back-passes and launching into idiotic tackles in dangerous areas.

However, to answer your question - because it's the easy option to blame Moyes and after all... he is the boss.

Are so many of you really so naive to think Moyes' public comments indicate his private thoughts? have you ever heard of mind games? do you think Mancini thinks City are actually out of the league?

It was clever of Moyes highlighting our underdog status; it was what any clever manager would have done. Liverpool are clearly struggling because of pressure, they do not have a squad which should be 8th in this league. Unfortunately, we blew it. You can blame Moyes, and clearly we sat too deep. But Distin's stupid error got them the equaliser and it was Coleman's which won them the game. Where Liverpool could bring on Dirk Kuyt, who has played in Champions leagues, world Cup finals etc, or Bellamy, or Maxi, who did we have to bring on? Coleman, signed for a pittance. There is more to Everton's 'failures' than Moyes, but that will probaly only become apparent to some of you when the next managers come in.

A manager who transforms a relegation squad into a top 8 team on a spend of less than £2 million a year average is not a loser.

Mind games?

Yeah Jim - that's what it was.

(rolls eyes so far back, can see inside of back of own neck)

Jim, hasn't Moyes just spent £6m on Jelavic and Gibson? Also, didn't we bring in Drenthe and Pienaar on loan, their wages must be costing, what, at least £1.5m?

Also, Coleman may have given the free kick away, but it was the bad defending after that, that conceded the goal.

Jim Knightley: If the team were instructed to play the way they did at Sunderland we might have got a result.

If Moyes had used the substitutes (all three of them) better we might have got a result.

If Moyes hadn't set out his stall to absorb the pressure when only leading 1 - 0 we might have scored a second. But he didn't.

If Moyes had watched Liverpool in their last game, he would have seen that ANY team that sits back against them loses. They are crap at the back and you have to attack them to beat them.

So tell me Jim, had enough yet? Fancy another season of the same? Another three defeats to the reds?

A manager who cuts a player for disciplinary reasons before a semi-final when he doesn;t have a better player to put in? Some point to make... we will never know now will we?

I have said before and I will continue to do so, that this is Moyes's last season. Like a politician too long in charge, he has outstayed his welcome.

For better or worse we need change. We need pride restored. The Old People's Club is run by a pair of caretakers in Moyes and Kenwright.

Eugene..you actually think they were not mind games pre match? seriously?


Brian what is your point? are you meaning to illustrate that we spend barely anything on players? if so, well done for highlighting we have spent 6million on players, in a period in which Liverpool have spent over £120 million.


Christine..Ive said on mutliple occasions that we sat too deep. However, you talk wrongly about Liverpool's defence. If you look at the statistics, instead of an assumption based on recent poor form, you will recognise that Liverpool have the fourth best defence in this division. Only City, United and us have let in less goals, and their recent defensive issues have been predicated on the loss of Agger, who has been essential to their team. Liverpool have faltered because of attack, not defence, and teams have got points off them because they have failed to take chances.

With regards to Moyes...he has a specific style. I would have liked to have Drenthe in the team yesterday, but I do not know what he has done. With regards to his style, it is replicated in the most successful British manager of recent times; Sir Alex Fergusion (and also to a lesser extent in Mourinho). There are different ways to run a club, and treat players, and Moyes' attitude, like Ferguson's, has plusses and minuses.

Christine, of course he set up the team not to lose, that's how you start off and then you try and score and what do you know it? You've won.

We were comfortable because they were as shite as us when attacking, a suicidal backpass changed the whole game.

The difference is that Dalgleish had a glut of good players to choose from so he could push on and win it, every single player on our bench isn't good enough for the starting XI, how are they going to change a game? Bellamy and Kuyt are both big game players who would walk into our team.

Christine, if Distin put the ball in row z instead of playing a stupid backpass or Coleman didn't launch himself into a tackle he wasn't going to win, we might have got a better result.

Jim, my point is that Moyes has had money to spend, some on here though, would lead you to believe he has never had a penny.

Eugene 226 - its a good point.

I remember my old man telling me once that principles are great, but sometimes they can be very expensive.

Fortunately I dont have to manage people so I'm probably talking out of the top of my head but with a month left of the season, an FA Cup Final in sight, the biggest game we've had against LFC in 23 years I'd like to think I'd try and take every player at my disposal into those games that I thought could cause damage. I'm sure there are many out there who would say "thas why you're not a man manager Mike..."

We'll never know but had Drente helped us win that game I dont think any one, Moyes included, would give two hoots about his antics. But then I dont know what they are either so might as well shut up.

He has had some money Brian, but his net spend is the equivalent of an upper Championship budget over the past 10 years. But with that Moyes has transformed this team and squad, and I believe if we had even half the resources of those around us, we would have kicked on and become the team we all wanted us to be.

Yes I blame Distin for a split second of stupid carelessness, same for Coleman. But to come out for the 2nd half and sit back and pray they couldn't break through was gutless, clueless, unacceptable and I don't ever want to see that man in an Everton tracksuit managing my team again.

Also, Distin had the bollocks to apolgise over to you Davey...

I thought I was alone in thinking Moyes a loser. I know its "heretic-speak" to the media but he has been a loser for a long time. When McBride criticised Moyes for being happy with 4th several seasons ago, I knew then that Moyes was prone to take what's left, rather than what he can grab.

The trick for all Evertonians now is not to fall for the "Talksport" fishing expeditions. Don't ring up and rant; let the media talk Moyes into thinking he is a superstar. He will take a job somewhere else and fail and we can pick up the pieces perhaps with a manager with a winning mentality.

Andy Gray might be the one, especially as he is now of screen.

Dan, with our luck, after he takes the job elsewhere and fails, we'll probably rehire him!!

Can you picture it? Moyes MkII
OH THE HORROR!!

I've always been Pro-Moyes, even when we finished just above relegation with him but now my support for him is seriously waining.

We've all heard him moaning about the lack of funds but equally he backs the Board.

HE CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!

Either back the Board and accept mediocrity or if Moyes really has any Fire in his Belly or Ambition to win with Everton then he needs to put his neck on the line and put pressure on them to do so.

So what is it going to be Mr Moyes? Ambition or Complacency.

"HE CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!" - Yes he can, he can moan about lack of funds because that is the reality of the situation, but he can also say that the board are giving him what little they actually have to help him.

What use will it be to come out and publicly lambast the board? What possible difference will that make to Everton's financial crisis? All it will do is make a few fans happy that Kenwrong is getting some stick. It's like a broken pencil.....pointless

No Tony he can't and I'll tell you why:

If a jobless person who couldn't be arsed to look for work moaned about being skint because the Dole couldn't afford to give him more money because of Cameron - would you say

A Moan as much as u like as they're doing the best they can

OR

B Grow a fucking set, get off ur arse n sort your shit out?

Not difficult to figure out what you or most people would say - it's equally the same in Moyes's case so wind your neck in and realise h needs to grow a set or accept mediocrity!!