Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
KITAP1 (My arse!)
169 Comments: KITAP1 ? aka trying not to lose rather than trying to win. This whole philosophy must now be shown as bankrupt, not viable, or fit for purpose.
I don't think that the here and now is the place to praise Moyes's pluses as we are in failure mode / de-brief. Hard questions need to be asked and hard answers need to be given and heeded ? and, if required, heads must and should roll.
This is it, decision time: is 7th or 8th and a semi-final fuck-up the high point, our be-all and end-all?
17th-7th is nowhere; most teams can and do do it. It's like the Richter Scale, it goes in orders of 10 magnitude. The next magnitude is 6th, 5th and 4th. It can be done... we did it with a poorer squad than now. Moyes has stagnated; what was new and worked then is now old and found out.
These pluses, which it could be said, have got us where we are, but where we are now is only good compared to where we where under Walter Smith.
This then brings in the reasons (more or less beyond our control) that do us no favours... KD, DK, BK, Money (or the lack of), EPL / Sky, wages, agents etc etc. Okay, put them to one side; what can we control?
We can control how we go about our business on the field.
Or, more to the point, Moyes can... but, time after time, he doesn't; in fact sometimes he goes into bunker / uber-cautious mode.
Now you either believe in this or you don't; you either see it or you don't... and it is obvious Moyes (and some sections of the support) DON'T.
KITAP1 only works if you do keep it tight AND pinch one; we, too often or not, DON'T.
As a humble pfc (private fuckin citizen) in the MOB, I cannot see how others cannot see that the correct way to play a 1-0 lead is to do what you were doing to get the 1-0 lead only more so... AND GO FOR TWO!
Even if we didn't get the jammy goal we got, the longer it went on with us pushing, the more the chances are that one of them would've done a Distin.
Davey, we often see all these adjectives infront of your name: decent, honest, etc, etc. You lost, we lost, not just the game but cred as well. Do the decent thing...
Derek Thomas, Posted 15/04/2012 at 09:03:33
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I've only just learned what KITAHTNO means so I have no idea what the P1 stands for.
Derek Thomas - I am not in the MOB, never have been. I will say though, that I agree with the what to do next after we score one philosophy. Always go for more, its about winning and when a team has just conceded, they are feeling low, so logic does lend a hand, always go for more.
I have to admit that after yesterday, I would not mind if we saw him go! Just so long as his replacement has a winning mentallity.
I have to admit that after yesterday, I would not mind if we saw him go! Just so long as his replacement has a winning mentallity.
He's from a different age Moyes it's not just his flawed version of "catenaccio" it's his whole philosophy.
He just doesn't seem sharp, players love his "comfy slipper" approach when he's onside he's loyal and trustworthy and as long as you toe the line you've a job for life.
When I was a kid working in Birds Eye Kirkby it was the same - completely unproductive but you had a job for life - it closed years ago.
How many Drenthes, Gibsons etc are there hanging around squads waiting for an opportunity, is it the work of genius getting a few on loan every summer?
Have we other Shane Duffy's capable of stepping up?
Bolton Wanderers MK2 it maybe but I don't care anymore that's us, officially mid table and ordinary after the latest derby "no shows".
He just doesn't seem sharp, players love his "comfy slipper" approach when he's onside he's loyal and trustworthy and as long as you toe the line you've a job for life.
When I was a kid working in Birds Eye Kirkby it was the same - completely unproductive but you had a job for life - it closed years ago.
How many Drenthes, Gibsons etc are there hanging around squads waiting for an opportunity, is it the work of genius getting a few on loan every summer?
Have we other Shane Duffy's capable of stepping up?
Bolton Wanderers MK2 it maybe but I don't care anymore that's us, officially mid table and ordinary after the latest derby "no shows".
Trying to nick one is a big failing of his over a number of years and especially when playing Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Manchester Utd. He sets out his teams to try and counter the opposition's strengths rather than setting out a team to attack the opposition's weak points.
His mentality is of the boxer that tries to 'go the distance' rather than have a go and win the fight. This is a recipe for being safe in the middle of the pack but never will this attitude win anything. To win you must risk losing.
His mentality is of the boxer that tries to 'go the distance' rather than have a go and win the fight. This is a recipe for being safe in the middle of the pack but never will this attitude win anything. To win you must risk losing.
Keep it tight and pinch one?
Nick.. I reckon I guessed the first bit, struggling with the pinch one bit.. thanks !... even typed it into google and got some odd results..
Its probably Moyes number plate !
Its probably Moyes number plate !
Sadly, 'keep it tight' will be all I remember of Moyes once he has gone.
I hope Moyes is watching Chelsea v Spurs, Chelsea just gone two up (Awful decision by the twat Atkinson) and they are looking for a third.
Moyes has publicly stated we are really pleased with draws away to bigger clubs. We all know the stats by now; Man Utd will be rubbing their hands next week. That will 43-0 on away fixtures. Defend that stat all you want, it is incredible for a club like Everton.
I pray Moyes & Kenwright fuck off. Bilic for me as our next manager.
There are going to be some big managerial positions available shortly ? possibly England, Chelsea, Spurs & Man U. Moyes has no chance of being offered any of these, he is mediocre and Everton is the best job he will ever have. He is no fool.
Even if you don't agree with me who our next manager should be, £3M a year gets you a top name.
Moyes has publicly stated we are really pleased with draws away to bigger clubs. We all know the stats by now; Man Utd will be rubbing their hands next week. That will 43-0 on away fixtures. Defend that stat all you want, it is incredible for a club like Everton.
I pray Moyes & Kenwright fuck off. Bilic for me as our next manager.
There are going to be some big managerial positions available shortly ? possibly England, Chelsea, Spurs & Man U. Moyes has no chance of being offered any of these, he is mediocre and Everton is the best job he will ever have. He is no fool.
Even if you don't agree with me who our next manager should be, £3M a year gets you a top name.
There's no way Gary Megson or Iain Dowie will be on £3 million a year like Moyes.
Well, I guess we should all be supremely thankful to Moyes for saving us from a total humiliation that would have happened in our 'retaliation' final matchup against Chelsea... Harry must be feeling just a bit miffed, though.
Awwwww shit balls. Bains has only gone and twinged his hamstring and is touch and go for Utd.
Just the last couple of lines.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/04/15/3038234/baines-looking-for-fa-cup-revenge
Just the last couple of lines.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/04/15/3038234/baines-looking-for-fa-cup-revenge
Even if it was a decent tactic and served us well, we've had enough of it now. It just too frustrating and depressing.
I totallly agree with your final two paragraphs. The players are not setup psycologically to walk onto the field as men. Anyone of them that displays any male traits gets castrated, dropped or sold. Accident waiting to happen.
And yes Everton lost all credibility because of this man David Moyes. I'm sorry but he has to go. This only confirms what many of us dread to accept already, this team is just happy to live out its days in the comfort zone. We are happy with 7th. How can you watch any Everton game now that you know for sure that this manager and his players will choke when it matters? Every win in the league only leaves me with doubt, it can no longer be enjoyable to its fullest and truest state. Everton with no cred is a sham, a lie.
And yes Everton lost all credibility because of this man David Moyes. I'm sorry but he has to go. This only confirms what many of us dread to accept already, this team is just happy to live out its days in the comfort zone. We are happy with 7th. How can you watch any Everton game now that you know for sure that this manager and his players will choke when it matters? Every win in the league only leaves me with doubt, it can no longer be enjoyable to its fullest and truest state. Everton with no cred is a sham, a lie.
At the risk of appearing a WUM,I can only say that KITAHTNO got us to Wembley so IMWT-COYB!
Richard,
I think if the FA moved all the third round games there you'd try to laud it as some kind of achievement of his.
I think if the FA moved all the third round games there you'd try to laud it as some kind of achievement of his.
Richard, stop using logic. It has no place here.
Daft acronyms etc rule, it doesn't matter it they are actually factual or not.
Daft acronyms etc rule, it doesn't matter it they are actually factual or not.
Tony J Williams
The Sunderland game was anything but keep it tight.
Just look at the result and reaction compared to the 2nd half against liverpool.
The hope was Moyes had learned the lesson discarded the flawed policy of hanging on and inviting teams on.
Keeping it tight might have played a part but it was the Sunderland game that lifted us there.l
The Sunderland game was anything but keep it tight.
Just look at the result and reaction compared to the 2nd half against liverpool.
The hope was Moyes had learned the lesson discarded the flawed policy of hanging on and inviting teams on.
Keeping it tight might have played a part but it was the Sunderland game that lifted us there.l
I posted something similar to this in another thread, but it's relevant here also.
Since Moyes arrived in March 2002, we have played the Sky 4 teams (Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool) 16 times in the FA & League Cup. In those games, we have scored a total of 12 goals, and have never scored more than 1 goal in a game (90 mins). We only won 2 of those games (both in our 2009 FA Cup run), one thanks to a lucky deflection against Liverpool at Goodison, the other via a penalty shoot-out against Man U.
So Richard and Tony, whilst this negative tactic may have got us to Wembley this season (and fortunately in 2009), it would appear that most of the time, when Moyes employs it, especially against the 'big teams', as he does ALL OF THE TIME, things tend go to shit. And that, is why a lot of us get frustrated at him.
Since Moyes arrived in March 2002, we have played the Sky 4 teams (Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool) 16 times in the FA & League Cup. In those games, we have scored a total of 12 goals, and have never scored more than 1 goal in a game (90 mins). We only won 2 of those games (both in our 2009 FA Cup run), one thanks to a lucky deflection against Liverpool at Goodison, the other via a penalty shoot-out against Man U.
So Richard and Tony, whilst this negative tactic may have got us to Wembley this season (and fortunately in 2009), it would appear that most of the time, when Moyes employs it, especially against the 'big teams', as he does ALL OF THE TIME, things tend go to shit. And that, is why a lot of us get frustrated at him.
Forget the acronyms then. Sitting back and inviting them to come at you is not the way...as was proved on Saturday.
Moyes has the whole squad infected with this virus. Get one goal and it will be enough, just as long as; a) you defend your arses off. b) are lucky enough to hold out until the final whistle. c) they don't get lucky once ( or in our case twice )
This might be, no, IS one sort of viable policy when done with the degree of Intensity that Moyes has instilled over 38 games. This gives you single digit finishes betweem 9th and 6th of around 50something points...AND NOTHING ELSE, except for the most part boring games.
How many times have you left Goodison slightly disappointed that you weren't better entertained. Walking out saying, that was worth the money. To quote Harry Enfield...If that's what you want, well that's what you'll get.
Richard did I read somewhere recently that you would have Martinez, you are already half admitting to yourself that change is needed.
Now all that is needed is for Moyes to see it
Moyes has the whole squad infected with this virus. Get one goal and it will be enough, just as long as; a) you defend your arses off. b) are lucky enough to hold out until the final whistle. c) they don't get lucky once ( or in our case twice )
This might be, no, IS one sort of viable policy when done with the degree of Intensity that Moyes has instilled over 38 games. This gives you single digit finishes betweem 9th and 6th of around 50something points...AND NOTHING ELSE, except for the most part boring games.
How many times have you left Goodison slightly disappointed that you weren't better entertained. Walking out saying, that was worth the money. To quote Harry Enfield...If that's what you want, well that's what you'll get.
Richard did I read somewhere recently that you would have Martinez, you are already half admitting to yourself that change is needed.
Now all that is needed is for Moyes to see it
Barry (and anybody else who persist in denying the evidence of their own eyes).
I have asked this question twice already and I will try again
If we were sitting back, how do you explain all our players being in Liverpool`s half when Distin had his momentary lapse of reason ?
And here`s another question ;
Did you guys really belive this staggeringly naive "they are there for the taking" bollocks ? They may been inconsistant in the league but they have beaten the best sides in the country in cup competitions.
Did you not expect a team containing Suarez, Gerrard and Bellamy to not come and have a real go when they were 1-0 down ? Did you not think they would have "Their period" ?.
There is a very clear difference between a team with good players having "their period" and the opposition sitting back.
Liverpool were far from unbeatable but in order to beat them our players had to match them for proffesionalism and desire . .and despite leading with less than half an hour to go, we failed on both counts
To solve problems, you need to be able to identify them. and you will never be able to do that if, in the event of defeat, you already had your culprit before a ball was kicked.
The same old people were ALWAYS going to blame Moyes if we lost. . .no matter what the circumstances.
I could except the "we sat back" criticism if Liverpool got back into the game because we were desperately defending and just throwing bodies in the way . .but I was there. I saw what happened and I could see all those Everton players in Liverpools half when we gifted them the equaliser.
The only people who lack credibility are those who are obstinately refusing to admit that as fact
You cannot gift wrap a couple of goals in a semi final and get away with it.
I`m staggered by the amount of people who seem to "know" our players were told to sit back . . . How do you know ? who told you ?
Blaming the manager for fatal errors made by the players on the pitch may provide you guys with some comfort, but it does fuck all for me, I`d rather face the cold hard truth now.
Phil Neville may have won a couple of gongs when he was being carried along by world class players, but along with other botllers like Cahill, he has (not for the first time ) been ruthlessly exposed by proven winners. We have a good team spirit, but when it REALLY matters you need winners in your team . . . we dont have any
I have asked this question twice already and I will try again
If we were sitting back, how do you explain all our players being in Liverpool`s half when Distin had his momentary lapse of reason ?
And here`s another question ;
Did you guys really belive this staggeringly naive "they are there for the taking" bollocks ? They may been inconsistant in the league but they have beaten the best sides in the country in cup competitions.
Did you not expect a team containing Suarez, Gerrard and Bellamy to not come and have a real go when they were 1-0 down ? Did you not think they would have "Their period" ?.
There is a very clear difference between a team with good players having "their period" and the opposition sitting back.
Liverpool were far from unbeatable but in order to beat them our players had to match them for proffesionalism and desire . .and despite leading with less than half an hour to go, we failed on both counts
To solve problems, you need to be able to identify them. and you will never be able to do that if, in the event of defeat, you already had your culprit before a ball was kicked.
The same old people were ALWAYS going to blame Moyes if we lost. . .no matter what the circumstances.
I could except the "we sat back" criticism if Liverpool got back into the game because we were desperately defending and just throwing bodies in the way . .but I was there. I saw what happened and I could see all those Everton players in Liverpools half when we gifted them the equaliser.
The only people who lack credibility are those who are obstinately refusing to admit that as fact
You cannot gift wrap a couple of goals in a semi final and get away with it.
I`m staggered by the amount of people who seem to "know" our players were told to sit back . . . How do you know ? who told you ?
Blaming the manager for fatal errors made by the players on the pitch may provide you guys with some comfort, but it does fuck all for me, I`d rather face the cold hard truth now.
Phil Neville may have won a couple of gongs when he was being carried along by world class players, but along with other botllers like Cahill, he has (not for the first time ) been ruthlessly exposed by proven winners. We have a good team spirit, but when it REALLY matters you need winners in your team . . . we dont have any
Lee Smith
Where is your earlier post showing Moyes's records against the Sky 4?
I can't find it...
Where is your earlier post showing Moyes's records against the Sky 4?
I can't find it...
Ryan, its in the Phil McNulty article on the home page
Aren't there 14 other teams in the league? Why the fascination with just the "Sky 4"? Do we get more points if we manage to beat a Sky4 team? Did we get more when we beat Man City and Chelsea...or do only away games count?
Who are these other managers who have great records against the 'Sky 4'?
I think we should be told...
I think we should be told...
Dave Wilson ? So do you think we played to our potential then? Was that our best? If not, why not? Apply the same questioning to the other massive games we have failed in.
Kevin I heard a stat on the radio on that long misery of a drive home on Saturday and that was Moyes has only beaten the RS 4 times in 10 years and thats in all competitions and the league, thats a piss poor record for an Everton manager and I'd bet my last pound its a record against previous Everton managers
Gavin - an appalling statistic and one to be ashamed of... but I'm left wondering how many other managers (apart from the 'Sky 4') have a similar record.
Dave Wilson...you have no idea about the game of football if you honestly believe that we did not sit back and try to defend a 1-0 lead on Saturday.
You forever try to defend the negative tactically inept shithouse that is our manager and he regularly embarrasses you with displays like Saturday. Apart form his negativity against Shite like QPR, Stoke, Blackburn etc he has bottled EVERY big game has ever been involved in both at Everton & Preston (please don't ask me to list them AGAIN) but still you bang the 'Moyes is a great manager' drum... he is not a great manager he is shite and his record against top teams bears this out.
It would appear that everybody in the world except you and Moyes can see what happened on Saturday... if you and Davey want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that Moyes's tactics didn't lose us the game then so be it but please stop insulting those who saw what happend before their very eyes... Every pundit and media person has expressed disbelief at how Everton 'sat back'... but we all can't be right can we because YOU and Dour Tactically Inept Davie say so.
By the way, if the way we played was down to the players, at which point did Dour Davie leap from the bench and instruct them to get higher up the pitch, close down their space, put pressure on the ball and actually ATTACK the RS in the second half? .... No, didn't think so....
If they were NOT acting on the manager's instruction then it is obvious he has no authority in the dressing room because his players blatantly ignore him... If this is the case, then he has no choice but to go.
You forever try to defend the negative tactically inept shithouse that is our manager and he regularly embarrasses you with displays like Saturday. Apart form his negativity against Shite like QPR, Stoke, Blackburn etc he has bottled EVERY big game has ever been involved in both at Everton & Preston (please don't ask me to list them AGAIN) but still you bang the 'Moyes is a great manager' drum... he is not a great manager he is shite and his record against top teams bears this out.
It would appear that everybody in the world except you and Moyes can see what happened on Saturday... if you and Davey want to bury your head in the sand and pretend that Moyes's tactics didn't lose us the game then so be it but please stop insulting those who saw what happend before their very eyes... Every pundit and media person has expressed disbelief at how Everton 'sat back'... but we all can't be right can we because YOU and Dour Tactically Inept Davie say so.
By the way, if the way we played was down to the players, at which point did Dour Davie leap from the bench and instruct them to get higher up the pitch, close down their space, put pressure on the ball and actually ATTACK the RS in the second half? .... No, didn't think so....
If they were NOT acting on the manager's instruction then it is obvious he has no authority in the dressing room because his players blatantly ignore him... If this is the case, then he has no choice but to go.
@ Tony #329: Yes, there are other teams in the league, and I'm not denying that overall Moyes, results wise and league position wise at least, has done an admirale job in his time here, considering the resources and conditions he has had to work with. But what I am simply showing is his horrendous record against the 'big' teams, in the big games, which I feel goes a long way to proving his lack of self-belief, which is a main factor towards why we hardly ever get anything from those games.
@ Kevin #332: I never said that there are managers out there with great records against the Sky 4. Again, I am simply showing how bad Moyes's is. I am pretty sure that results wise, Moyes probably has the worst record of any other manager out there. I have done my bit, and researched how bad Moyes's record is, if you want to prove me wrong and detail other managers with a worse record, feel free to detail them here.
@ Kevin #332: I never said that there are managers out there with great records against the Sky 4. Again, I am simply showing how bad Moyes's is. I am pretty sure that results wise, Moyes probably has the worst record of any other manager out there. I have done my bit, and researched how bad Moyes's record is, if you want to prove me wrong and detail other managers with a worse record, feel free to detail them here.
Dave Wilson
There's part of me that perversely respects your doggedness in supporting Moyes even though I disagree with virtually every word you write.
But I know from your previous postings it's absolutely pointless trying to get you to see as manager for 10 years the buck stops with him.
After the Anfield debacle I remember you saying he had to win the thing to justify his gamble, not only has he failed to win it but failed in the same old way - surrender.
There's part of me that perversely respects your doggedness in supporting Moyes even though I disagree with virtually every word you write.
But I know from your previous postings it's absolutely pointless trying to get you to see as manager for 10 years the buck stops with him.
After the Anfield debacle I remember you saying he had to win the thing to justify his gamble, not only has he failed to win it but failed in the same old way - surrender.
It was once again, our lack of belief in our ability that let us down. Some will blame the players, saying that they are not good enough, some will blame the tactics and the manager.
The reality is we all know that these players have won many games, and are capable of beating anyone on thier day, when they have the self-belief!!
The manager is the one who dictates the tactics, he alone sets the team up. If any player is not doing their job, it is his place to sort it out. The buck stops with him.
It was his choice to blame the players mistakes after the game and not his tactical failure. For that reason, I have lost faith with him. He has worked wonders for us, but he just does not have it in him to take the plunge into attacking the opposition and having a winning mentality.
It is time for change, sadly!! We should not allow our club to be also rans. He has shown he is not good enough to do it for us. As far as I am concerned we should say goodbye to him and move on.
The reality is we all know that these players have won many games, and are capable of beating anyone on thier day, when they have the self-belief!!
The manager is the one who dictates the tactics, he alone sets the team up. If any player is not doing their job, it is his place to sort it out. The buck stops with him.
It was his choice to blame the players mistakes after the game and not his tactical failure. For that reason, I have lost faith with him. He has worked wonders for us, but he just does not have it in him to take the plunge into attacking the opposition and having a winning mentality.
It is time for change, sadly!! We should not allow our club to be also rans. He has shown he is not good enough to do it for us. As far as I am concerned we should say goodbye to him and move on.
Nelly
I wont ask you to list any "credentials"
What I WILL ask you is a very very simple question.
Now without getting into a childish debate about who earned the most money playing, me or you. or going around the houses claiming none of the other persistant Moyes critics agree with me. . . Just try to answer it.
If we were "sitting back" back under Moyes`s instruction . . How do you explain every Everton player being in Liverpools half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass ?
I`ve asked this question 4 times now and if you - or anybody else - dont answer it this time, then I will have to assume that you cant. so stop dodging it.
And while we are at it. let me ask you another question : Do you think the two individual errors that handed liverpool the goals and gave them victory were within the managers control ? and if Liverpool could have scored without these howlers . .why didnt they ?
Now I`m more than happy for you to post all the insults you want, if you think you can cloud the issue or gain support from the usual critics, but do that on a seperate post.
Use your expert knowledge to answer the questions first . .
Tommy
No I dont think we played to our potential, I think many players choked.
Let me ask you a question ; Do you think anybody who has claimed Moyes told his players to "sit back" has any evidence or inside knowledge of this ?
I ask this because I can count on one hand the number of games I`ve missed throughout Moyes`s tenure and I would put a years wages on him telling his troops to go out and give them fuck all . . There`s a very definite difference.
I wont ask you to list any "credentials"
What I WILL ask you is a very very simple question.
Now without getting into a childish debate about who earned the most money playing, me or you. or going around the houses claiming none of the other persistant Moyes critics agree with me. . . Just try to answer it.
If we were "sitting back" back under Moyes`s instruction . . How do you explain every Everton player being in Liverpools half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass ?
I`ve asked this question 4 times now and if you - or anybody else - dont answer it this time, then I will have to assume that you cant. so stop dodging it.
And while we are at it. let me ask you another question : Do you think the two individual errors that handed liverpool the goals and gave them victory were within the managers control ? and if Liverpool could have scored without these howlers . .why didnt they ?
Now I`m more than happy for you to post all the insults you want, if you think you can cloud the issue or gain support from the usual critics, but do that on a seperate post.
Use your expert knowledge to answer the questions first . .
Tommy
No I dont think we played to our potential, I think many players choked.
Let me ask you a question ; Do you think anybody who has claimed Moyes told his players to "sit back" has any evidence or inside knowledge of this ?
I ask this because I can count on one hand the number of games I`ve missed throughout Moyes`s tenure and I would put a years wages on him telling his troops to go out and give them fuck all . . There`s a very definite difference.
Barry Rathbone.
You will not hear me defend Moyes for playing Cahill or Neville ? I think he cost us the chance to win the cup by selecting them. Nor will you hear me trying to justify his selection at Anfield. Now if you see that as dogged support, then I want even begin to try to change your mind.
What you will not see me do is try to gain acceptance by absolving players of shite performances or denying what I saw with my own eyes.
You will not hear me defend Moyes for playing Cahill or Neville ? I think he cost us the chance to win the cup by selecting them. Nor will you hear me trying to justify his selection at Anfield. Now if you see that as dogged support, then I want even begin to try to change your mind.
What you will not see me do is try to gain acceptance by absolving players of shite performances or denying what I saw with my own eyes.
Dave Wilson 171 and others; 1) Of Course they are going to come out in the 2nd half all fired up.
We need to win this; halftime talks No.1.
KK; we need to win this, lets go out there and get into them, cites Shankly, Paisley, The Kop. Billy Liddell etc etc etc.
KITAP1; we know they will come out all fired up so we sit a bit deeper and take it, soak it up, and hold out.
We need to win this; halftime team talks No.2.
KK; We need to win this, lets go out there and get in to them, cites Shankly, Paisley, the Kop, Billy Liddell etc etc etc.
A.N. Other; We know they will come out all fired up, so what do we do?? WE go out there and match them, after 15 or 20 mins the steam will go out of them, they will start subbing on and off, their heads will drop, they're 1-0 down, someone will make a mistake...jelly, you'll probabley end up with a hat trick. We can have a few beers, back for some training to get the kinks out and go and give Untd a game.
2) Dave, you've previous for this deliberate obtusivness, yes we had players up when Distin imploded but the fact is that we WERE sitting back, so it was less players less often...but you knew that didn't you.
We need to win this; halftime talks No.1.
KK; we need to win this, lets go out there and get into them, cites Shankly, Paisley, The Kop. Billy Liddell etc etc etc.
KITAP1; we know they will come out all fired up so we sit a bit deeper and take it, soak it up, and hold out.
We need to win this; halftime team talks No.2.
KK; We need to win this, lets go out there and get in to them, cites Shankly, Paisley, the Kop, Billy Liddell etc etc etc.
A.N. Other; We know they will come out all fired up, so what do we do?? WE go out there and match them, after 15 or 20 mins the steam will go out of them, they will start subbing on and off, their heads will drop, they're 1-0 down, someone will make a mistake...jelly, you'll probabley end up with a hat trick. We can have a few beers, back for some training to get the kinks out and go and give Untd a game.
2) Dave, you've previous for this deliberate obtusivness, yes we had players up when Distin imploded but the fact is that we WERE sitting back, so it was less players less often...but you knew that didn't you.
You're a total liar, Dave Wilson (#427):
"How do you explain every Everton player being in Liverpool's half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass?"
Apart from Distin, who was obviously NOT in Liverpool's half, and Howard, who was obviously NOT in Liverpool's half, there were another FOUR Everton players in Everton's half when Distin made that backpass.
Why on earth would anyone in their right mind make up shit like that?
"How do you explain every Everton player being in Liverpool's half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass?"
Apart from Distin, who was obviously NOT in Liverpool's half, and Howard, who was obviously NOT in Liverpool's half, there were another FOUR Everton players in Everton's half when Distin made that backpass.
Why on earth would anyone in their right mind make up shit like that?
Michael it's the last desperate act of a man who refuses to accept his hero's continued failings.
@ Michael #575 : It's as if Dave Wilson is unaware that there is such a thing as Sky+ / YouTube, where people can check up on his statements to see if what he is saying is actually true. So that's over half of the Everton team in their own half, as opposed to 'every' Everton player being in Liverpool's half.
Maybe you should check your facts before posting Dave...
Maybe you should check your facts before posting Dave...
Michael Kenrick
Take a fucken look lad. when the long punt is played up to Carroll, he wasn't even in our half, when it came to Distin two players Heitinga and dropped 5 yards into our half to make themsleves available ? with Neville drifting back over the far side.
We were camped in their half. only Suarez had bventured into ours.
The fucken film is still there lad , my account of events is incontestable Your "I hate Moyes" slip is beginning to show.
Take a fucken look lad. when the long punt is played up to Carroll, he wasn't even in our half, when it came to Distin two players Heitinga and dropped 5 yards into our half to make themsleves available ? with Neville drifting back over the far side.
We were camped in their half. only Suarez had bventured into ours.
The fucken film is still there lad , my account of events is incontestable Your "I hate Moyes" slip is beginning to show.
'Incontestable'....HA HA HA! Dave, you said that when when Distin handed them a lifeline with his back pass, every other Everton player was in Liverpool's half. That is blatantly incorrect and can be proven so by watching any of the many videos of the goal on the internet. Please don't now try and redeem yourself by moving the goal posts, and claiming that was what you REALLY meant.
Just had another look and I`m spot on.
Yes we had four players in our half - just - by the time Distin plays it back but three of them are on the half way line when he actually gets it.
Count the inches if you want, get out your slide rules, but when distin plays it back 50 yards (do I really have to say approx ?) there isnt an everton player behind him.
Graps at straws all you want, but I have asked for somebody (anybody) to come up with a credible explination as to why if we were "sitting back" did`nt we have a man who could have identified Howard without the aid of binoculors, Nobody has come up with an even half credible anaswer.
Theres a very good reason for that.
The same reason they will not mention Jelavic`s wild shot from the edge of the box, the Baines cross, that had their goalkeeper back peddling and knocking it off his own player for a corner, or the Osman shot straight at the keeper from a similar position to the one he scored from last week.
To talk about four attacks in the opening 15 minutes of the second half , would suggest we were hardly sitting back, so lets convince ourselevee they didnt happen . .
Yes we had four players in our half - just - by the time Distin plays it back but three of them are on the half way line when he actually gets it.
Count the inches if you want, get out your slide rules, but when distin plays it back 50 yards (do I really have to say approx ?) there isnt an everton player behind him.
Graps at straws all you want, but I have asked for somebody (anybody) to come up with a credible explination as to why if we were "sitting back" did`nt we have a man who could have identified Howard without the aid of binoculors, Nobody has come up with an even half credible anaswer.
Theres a very good reason for that.
The same reason they will not mention Jelavic`s wild shot from the edge of the box, the Baines cross, that had their goalkeeper back peddling and knocking it off his own player for a corner, or the Osman shot straight at the keeper from a similar position to the one he scored from last week.
To talk about four attacks in the opening 15 minutes of the second half , would suggest we were hardly sitting back, so lets convince ourselevee they didnt happen . .
This the last I'm going to say on the matter of Suarez's goal, as it's getting rather tedious.
When the ball is played up to Carroll, we have 6 players behing the ball. When Distin intercepts the through ball / plays the ball back, we clearly have 6 players in our own half. I'm not 'counting inches' (they were all clearly inside our half by the time Distin collects), or 'grasping at straws'. The proof is there for everyone to see.
When the ball is played up to Carroll, we have 6 players behing the ball. When Distin intercepts the through ball / plays the ball back, we clearly have 6 players in our own half. I'm not 'counting inches' (they were all clearly inside our half by the time Distin collects), or 'grasping at straws'. The proof is there for everyone to see.
spot on Lee....6 players is correct...Dave Wilson sought of defeats your argument doesn't it
Lee
Until this morning I had only seen this goal from behind the Everton end. I have now seen it three times this morning from the camera angle. and I feel you do have your slide rule out and you are grasping at straws.
Two players - JH AND MF - dropped to make a pass for Distin and Neville drifts back at the top of the screen at no time did any of these players get goal side despite the back pass being 50 yards away. There was not a soul -Red or Blue in that 50 yard gap between Distin and Howard
I`m not sure what`s the most desperate, claiming that we were sitting back (dear me, would that be laughed out of a court of law) or including our goalkeeper and counting players chasing back (AFTER the backpass) when totting up the players in our half.
I`ll accept that from the angle I have seen today I was wrong by a couple of feet (Not lying though) but if you and anyone else choose to ignore the evidence of your own eyes and insist on seeing this as "sitting back" then you are right, there is no point in continuing the discussion.
People can watch the goal for themselves and draw their own conclusions.
Until this morning I had only seen this goal from behind the Everton end. I have now seen it three times this morning from the camera angle. and I feel you do have your slide rule out and you are grasping at straws.
Two players - JH AND MF - dropped to make a pass for Distin and Neville drifts back at the top of the screen at no time did any of these players get goal side despite the back pass being 50 yards away. There was not a soul -Red or Blue in that 50 yard gap between Distin and Howard
I`m not sure what`s the most desperate, claiming that we were sitting back (dear me, would that be laughed out of a court of law) or including our goalkeeper and counting players chasing back (AFTER the backpass) when totting up the players in our half.
I`ll accept that from the angle I have seen today I was wrong by a couple of feet (Not lying though) but if you and anyone else choose to ignore the evidence of your own eyes and insist on seeing this as "sitting back" then you are right, there is no point in continuing the discussion.
People can watch the goal for themselves and draw their own conclusions.
Final word on it
Count the Liverpool players in our half when the ball is hoofed forward (trust me it wont take long)
then ask yourself which team was really sitting back at that stage.
dont bother answering me, i just ask you be honest with yourselves
Count the Liverpool players in our half when the ball is hoofed forward (trust me it wont take long)
then ask yourself which team was really sitting back at that stage.
dont bother answering me, i just ask you be honest with yourselves
Dave Wilson, to be honest I don't think we all have time to spend time "count the players..." in whichever version you change to make yourself correct.
You made a statement, it was shown to be rubbish, man up and accept it.
You made a statement, it was shown to be rubbish, man up and accept it.
Jeremy Benson
Like everyone who ever went to a game, then later watched it on television. I have seen two angles and have accepted that a couple of players were a few feet into our half. (which really makes the world of difference)
That me manned up.
lets if any of you guys can can do the same ?
Which team was sitting back ?
Like everyone who ever went to a game, then later watched it on television. I have seen two angles and have accepted that a couple of players were a few feet into our half. (which really makes the world of difference)
That me manned up.
lets if any of you guys can can do the same ?
Which team was sitting back ?
Mad as a Muppet Wilson (#604):
"Just had another look and I`m spot on.
Yes we had four players in our half."
Dave, are you fucking insane or what?
You are NOT "spot on", you fucking imbecile.
Just try this: "Yes, I was wrong".
It's not that hard.
"Just had another look and I`m spot on.
Yes we had four players in our half."
Dave, are you fucking insane or what?
You are NOT "spot on", you fucking imbecile.
Just try this: "Yes, I was wrong".
It's not that hard.
Fuck me, here's another one:
"When Distin plays it back 50 yards (do I really have to say approx?) there isn't an Everton player behind him."
Did you actually watch it again? Or make more shit up? When Distin plays the ball (only 5 yards, btw, not 50... but that's the whole point!!!), it's pretty clear that, from the way he is facing, every single Everton player on the field is BEHIND him.
It's like you go to the game, and because you were there, everything you saw in your perception was correct.
Everton were sitting back, soaking it up. Everyone but you seems to know that. It doesn't mean they didn't venture upfield occasionally. Only an idiot would use this specific moment of play to prove some point that is in fact totally wrong.
Jesus, your hero Moyes even said we were trying to "contain" them. That's code, Dave. It means they were sitting back and trying to soak up the pressure. They failed, Dave. Pretty much like you failed in your analysis of the game.
"When Distin plays it back 50 yards (do I really have to say approx?) there isn't an Everton player behind him."
Did you actually watch it again? Or make more shit up? When Distin plays the ball (only 5 yards, btw, not 50... but that's the whole point!!!), it's pretty clear that, from the way he is facing, every single Everton player on the field is BEHIND him.
It's like you go to the game, and because you were there, everything you saw in your perception was correct.
Everton were sitting back, soaking it up. Everyone but you seems to know that. It doesn't mean they didn't venture upfield occasionally. Only an idiot would use this specific moment of play to prove some point that is in fact totally wrong.
Jesus, your hero Moyes even said we were trying to "contain" them. That's code, Dave. It means they were sitting back and trying to soak up the pressure. They failed, Dave. Pretty much like you failed in your analysis of the game.
Dave, are you fucking insane or what?
You are NOT "spot on", you fucking imbecile.
Poor form Michael from someone who was preaching to us a couple of weeks back about the name calling and abuse to fellow Evertonians.
I understand your frustrations though!
You are NOT "spot on", you fucking imbecile.
Poor form Michael from someone who was preaching to us a couple of weeks back about the name calling and abuse to fellow Evertonians.
I understand your frustrations though!
Yes, you're right, Al, I shouldn't have called him that.
It is a concern though, when someone gets their facts so blatantly and obviously wrong, won't initially admit it when pointed out to them, them starts blathering about inches and slide rules to explain his mistake.
His perceptions and opinions, which he is so fond of spouting with such authority, have to be based primarily on what he sees. Here we have proof that what he sees is wrong. So what does that say for his credibility?
It is a concern though, when someone gets their facts so blatantly and obviously wrong, won't initially admit it when pointed out to them, them starts blathering about inches and slide rules to explain his mistake.
His perceptions and opinions, which he is so fond of spouting with such authority, have to be based primarily on what he sees. Here we have proof that what he sees is wrong. So what does that say for his credibility?
Only an idiot would specify this moment of play" . . IT WAS THE DEFINING MOMENT ! ! ! the one that changed the game.
You claim we were sitting back while the shite had just one player up and we were camped in their half.
Your deluding yourself and no amount of pedantry arguing the toss about a couple of feet either side of the half way line will change that.
You claim we were sitting back while the shite had just one player up and we were camped in their half.
Your deluding yourself and no amount of pedantry arguing the toss about a couple of feet either side of the half way line will change that.
The claim is that we conceded because "we were siting back". wtf ?
We were sitting back so much that when Suarez raced through our half to score he must have thought he was in a fucken ghost town.
And the pass may have only travelled 5 yards but it was intended for a goalie 50 yards away . .perhaps I made that up too
We were sitting back so much that when Suarez raced through our half to score he must have thought he was in a fucken ghost town.
And the pass may have only travelled 5 yards but it was intended for a goalie 50 yards away . .perhaps I made that up too
Dave,
You're the daft pillock who bought up the half-way line and its great significance, remember? You wanted us to count how many players were which side of it ... as if that mattered a jot.
But to you it clearly did, because if EVERY EVERTON PLAYER (your exact words, remember?) was in the Liverpool half (even Distin and Howard?!?! ? You really are unbelievable), then, in your logic, it meant Everton weren't sitting back.
But you were lying in inventing that supposed 'fact' to support an arguement that you wanted us all to believe, and therefore your basic premise ? that Everton were pushing forward because EVERY EVERTON PLAYER was in the Liverpool half ? was clearly wrong! In fact, MOST of the Everton team were in their own half!!! Totally disproves your own premise.
But to Dave Wilson, it's now pedantry aboutinches ? now a couple of feet ? as if that somehow absolves you from the lie. It doesn't.
At that moment, Everton were attacking, Liverpool were defending, but the ball was lofted out of the Liverpool defence (nothing unusual there) and ended up in the Everton half, where more than half the team were transitioning from attack to defence, when Distin committed his howler.
As to their play over almost the entire second half, Everton played deep, sat back, defended their lead, tried to contain the opposition, were hesitant in possession ... frightened to attack ? use whichever term you want to describe it, that doesn't change what happened on the field ? and what most of us could see all too clearly, whether we were there or not.
A golden opportunity to beat the RedShite, squandered through negative, overly cautious safety-first football. Moyes to a Tee.
You're the daft pillock who bought up the half-way line and its great significance, remember? You wanted us to count how many players were which side of it ... as if that mattered a jot.
But to you it clearly did, because if EVERY EVERTON PLAYER (your exact words, remember?) was in the Liverpool half (even Distin and Howard?!?! ? You really are unbelievable), then, in your logic, it meant Everton weren't sitting back.
But you were lying in inventing that supposed 'fact' to support an arguement that you wanted us all to believe, and therefore your basic premise ? that Everton were pushing forward because EVERY EVERTON PLAYER was in the Liverpool half ? was clearly wrong! In fact, MOST of the Everton team were in their own half!!! Totally disproves your own premise.
But to Dave Wilson, it's now pedantry about
At that moment, Everton were attacking, Liverpool were defending, but the ball was lofted out of the Liverpool defence (nothing unusual there) and ended up in the Everton half, where more than half the team were transitioning from attack to defence, when Distin committed his howler.
As to their play over almost the entire second half, Everton played deep, sat back, defended their lead, tried to contain the opposition, were hesitant in possession ... frightened to attack ? use whichever term you want to describe it, that doesn't change what happened on the field ? and what most of us could see all too clearly, whether we were there or not.
A golden opportunity to beat the RedShite, squandered through negative, overly cautious safety-first football. Moyes to a Tee.
Sorry Michael, but I'm laughing that he got you too!
Arguing with Mr Wilson?
Madness awaits!
(which is why I knocked it/him on the head a while back)
Arguing with Mr Wilson?
Madness awaits!
(which is why I knocked it/him on the head a while back)
Never mind the acronyms, the evidence of my own eyes on Saturday, the evidence of most of this season and seasons gone by is that once having gained or been gifted a 1-0 lead. Moyes's default plan is to defend it by defending, rather than defend it by scoring more.
I now refer all and sundry to my post 528 as a slightly tongue in cheek view of the half-time proceedings.
You either think that conceeding the initiative and defending a 1-0 lead for 60 odd mins is the right way to play football... Especially knockout sudden death, where a draw DOES NOT get you a point... If so, vote Moyes... and may God have mercy on your Royal Blue Soul.
Or you think that in proper football the aim is to win, not just try not to lose... Yes, you have to defend sometimes.
To Mr Moyes and all those who agree with him:
That's why a 'goal' as in, ball in net, was called GOAL. It's what you aim for, literally and figuratively.
That's what S American commentators get excited about.
That's why the film of the 1966 World Cup was called GOAL.
That's why the Germans are still arguing about Geoff Hurst.... GOAL.
That's why we still moan about the hand of god... GOAL.
That's why football magazines are called SHOOT, not Defend or Pass Back or Waste Time or Dive or Cheat.
GGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAALLLLLLLL.
No mention of tackle, run the channels, get behind the ball.
Joe Mercer said 'Football is a simple game made complicated by idiots.'
The Goal of the Game is to Score Goals!
Goal, Goal, fuking Goal.
What part of G-O-A-L don't you understand???
I now refer all and sundry to my post 528 as a slightly tongue in cheek view of the half-time proceedings.
You either think that conceeding the initiative and defending a 1-0 lead for 60 odd mins is the right way to play football... Especially knockout sudden death, where a draw DOES NOT get you a point... If so, vote Moyes... and may God have mercy on your Royal Blue Soul.
Or you think that in proper football the aim is to win, not just try not to lose... Yes, you have to defend sometimes.
To Mr Moyes and all those who agree with him:
That's why a 'goal' as in, ball in net, was called GOAL. It's what you aim for, literally and figuratively.
That's what S American commentators get excited about.
That's why the film of the 1966 World Cup was called GOAL.
That's why the Germans are still arguing about Geoff Hurst.... GOAL.
That's why we still moan about the hand of god... GOAL.
That's why football magazines are called SHOOT, not Defend or Pass Back or Waste Time or Dive or Cheat.
GGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAALLLLLLLL.
No mention of tackle, run the channels, get behind the ball.
Joe Mercer said 'Football is a simple game made complicated by idiots.'
The Goal of the Game is to Score Goals!
Goal, Goal, fuking Goal.
What part of G-O-A-L don't you understand???
Moyes has problems adapting in big games, no question. But it's daft to hand pick games to assess his record. His record stacks up to anyone's outside the money teams. That isn't the problem.
Saturday was an example of Moyes's weakness. Dave Wilson, as a Moyes fan, even I was disturbed by his comments that he knew Liverpool were going to come at us second half.... he seemed to drop Cahill back to increase numbers in the middle, but they still overran us. I think the mindset was wrong. Can't prove it like you say, but that's the impression I get.
Having said that, I can never understand peoples failure to understand the context for modern football. Every winner becomes so because of big money. The facts are indisputable, yet Moyes is criticised for not achieving the same level of performance.
Saturday was an example of Moyes's weakness. Dave Wilson, as a Moyes fan, even I was disturbed by his comments that he knew Liverpool were going to come at us second half.... he seemed to drop Cahill back to increase numbers in the middle, but they still overran us. I think the mindset was wrong. Can't prove it like you say, but that's the impression I get.
Having said that, I can never understand peoples failure to understand the context for modern football. Every winner becomes so because of big money. The facts are indisputable, yet Moyes is criticised for not achieving the same level of performance.
Dave, I'm not getting into this argument, as I haven't bothered to watch the replays, but, gun to your head, would you be happy for Moyes to sign another 5-year contract this summer?
Roman, if you put the gun to his head, I'll pull the trigger. ;)
Only joking by the way Dave!!!!
Michael.
You are being pedantic and I`ll tell you why:
When I watched the game, I was sitting behind the goal and like everyone else I saw Everton players standing on what appeared to be the half way line. They were our last line of defence EVERY other player was in the red half.
Now, having seen it from a different angle, I now know that, when the ball was played up to Carroll, a couple of outfield players were actually a couple of feet into our half, I have admitted as much more than once, but here`s the point... It doesn't matter.
When somebody "shoots from the edge of the area", it doesn't matter if he isn't EXACTLY on the edge of the area.
When a player "crosses from the dead ball line", the ball doesn't actually have to touch the dead ball line, it isn't examined later for chalk marks.
And when a striker is playing on the shoulder of the last defender...
It's terrace talk, football terminology.
The reason for the pedantry is very very clear, it's to mask the real point.
Your argument that we conceded because we "sat back", MAY have carried some weight if Suarez had to weave his way through a maze of defenders all "sitting back and keeping it tight". But the fact is, he couldn't have had less defenders to beat If he was playing on the fucken moon. He ran through our entire half like a lonely long distance runner... Now, unless you are claiming Moyes asked his troops to "sit back" in the opposition half, that kinda blows you claims to fuck doesn't it?
When the equaliser went in, the game changed. The arse fell out of us and, as their senior players became fired up and went for blood, ours dissappeared up their own arses and we were battered.
Do you see what I`m doing here? I`m offering an alernative view, not one subscribed to by people who have had the knives out for Moyes and were always going to blame him... but one recognised by the sane world, one recognised by ballanced people who will always trust what their eyes tell them.
Senior players let Everton down big time on Saturday and you people are allowing your judgment to be so clouded you can't even recognise that... even when it's twatting you between the eyes.
Is Moyes innoccent? Is he fuck, he continues to pick these fraudsters and that in itself should be a sacking offence.
I spend thousands watching this shite, so I kinda leave myself wide open to charges of being an imbecile... but don't call me a liar again. It's one of the few things you can say to me that I find deeply offensive.
I`ll leave you to enjoy that nice juicy apple Eugene has just brought you.
You are being pedantic and I`ll tell you why:
When I watched the game, I was sitting behind the goal and like everyone else I saw Everton players standing on what appeared to be the half way line. They were our last line of defence EVERY other player was in the red half.
Now, having seen it from a different angle, I now know that, when the ball was played up to Carroll, a couple of outfield players were actually a couple of feet into our half, I have admitted as much more than once, but here`s the point... It doesn't matter.
When somebody "shoots from the edge of the area", it doesn't matter if he isn't EXACTLY on the edge of the area.
When a player "crosses from the dead ball line", the ball doesn't actually have to touch the dead ball line, it isn't examined later for chalk marks.
And when a striker is playing on the shoulder of the last defender...
It's terrace talk, football terminology.
The reason for the pedantry is very very clear, it's to mask the real point.
Your argument that we conceded because we "sat back", MAY have carried some weight if Suarez had to weave his way through a maze of defenders all "sitting back and keeping it tight". But the fact is, he couldn't have had less defenders to beat If he was playing on the fucken moon. He ran through our entire half like a lonely long distance runner... Now, unless you are claiming Moyes asked his troops to "sit back" in the opposition half, that kinda blows you claims to fuck doesn't it?
When the equaliser went in, the game changed. The arse fell out of us and, as their senior players became fired up and went for blood, ours dissappeared up their own arses and we were battered.
Do you see what I`m doing here? I`m offering an alernative view, not one subscribed to by people who have had the knives out for Moyes and were always going to blame him... but one recognised by the sane world, one recognised by ballanced people who will always trust what their eyes tell them.
Senior players let Everton down big time on Saturday and you people are allowing your judgment to be so clouded you can't even recognise that... even when it's twatting you between the eyes.
Is Moyes innoccent? Is he fuck, he continues to pick these fraudsters and that in itself should be a sacking offence.
I spend thousands watching this shite, so I kinda leave myself wide open to charges of being an imbecile... but don't call me a liar again. It's one of the few things you can say to me that I find deeply offensive.
I`ll leave you to enjoy that nice juicy apple Eugene has just brought you.
Wets finger then touches arse.
Tsssssssssssssssssss!!!
(he's on a roll!)
Tsssssssssssssssssss!!!
(he's on a roll!)
Roman
Second last paragraph answer your question ?
Second last paragraph answer your question ?
My only contribution will be:
Liverpool had more possession, more territorial advantage, More shots on target, more shots off target and finally, more goals scored.
Now can someone (Dave) prove how we 'had a go at them' and never sat back?
Ignore isolated incidents, yes we all know the turning point was the back pass but why?
Because the stats above prove we were not the team on top and were IN FACT, SITTING BACK.
Liverpool had more possession, more territorial advantage, More shots on target, more shots off target and finally, more goals scored.
Now can someone (Dave) prove how we 'had a go at them' and never sat back?
Ignore isolated incidents, yes we all know the turning point was the back pass but why?
Because the stats above prove we were not the team on top and were IN FACT, SITTING BACK.
So Derek 49... it's important to score goals?
Dave
I cant bring myself to watch back any of that game,my memory could also be affecting by the copious amounts of alcohol consumed on the day but this how I remember it.
While for the first goal Everton were pushed a bit further up the pitch as I do remember Ratboy having to cover some ground before scoring,there is no getting away from the fact that most of the second half took place in and around our box.
I cant bring myself to watch back any of that game,my memory could also be affecting by the copious amounts of alcohol consumed on the day but this how I remember it.
While for the first goal Everton were pushed a bit further up the pitch as I do remember Ratboy having to cover some ground before scoring,there is no getting away from the fact that most of the second half took place in and around our box.
Paul
The alcohol is not affecting your memory. you are indeed correct, we were under the cosh for nearly all of the last half hour -battered
But the stats of the first hour will show things were pretty even in both terms of possesion and teritorial advantage. However, we were ahead in the only stat that mattered
The irony . .THE ABSOLUTE IRONY, is this ; if the people who were ALWAYS going to blame Moyes in the event of defeat ("everyone" as they are refering to themselves ) were anywhere near right in their assessment and we HAD have been sitting back and defending our lead . . .That disagreeable little bastard would probably never have been given the opportunity to equalise.
The alcohol is not affecting your memory. you are indeed correct, we were under the cosh for nearly all of the last half hour -battered
But the stats of the first hour will show things were pretty even in both terms of possesion and teritorial advantage. However, we were ahead in the only stat that mattered
The irony . .THE ABSOLUTE IRONY, is this ; if the people who were ALWAYS going to blame Moyes in the event of defeat ("everyone" as they are refering to themselves ) were anywhere near right in their assessment and we HAD have been sitting back and defending our lead . . .That disagreeable little bastard would probably never have been given the opportunity to equalise.
Dave,
Your desire to come across as ITK has led you up some blind alleys but this one's by far your finest hour.
The whole entire world have saw fit to comment on how Everton lost that game by sitting on a lead. It was the talk of Wembley(I was just to the side of the goal) that as soon as we scored we stopped playing.
Whether we chased the odd toe noggy into their half second half makes no-odd's. We went out to get a goal and sit on it. It failed miserably. Just as it has done so many times in the past against much worse sides than them. I know it came from the manager because I've seen it done before and before and before.
The Majority of the Everton community can now see him for what he is.
Your desire to come across as ITK has led you up some blind alleys but this one's by far your finest hour.
The whole entire world have saw fit to comment on how Everton lost that game by sitting on a lead. It was the talk of Wembley(I was just to the side of the goal) that as soon as we scored we stopped playing.
Whether we chased the odd toe noggy into their half second half makes no-odd's. We went out to get a goal and sit on it. It failed miserably. Just as it has done so many times in the past against much worse sides than them. I know it came from the manager because I've seen it done before and before and before.
The Majority of the Everton community can now see him for what he is.
Dave 119
Well lets forget about the sitting back or defending argument for a minute.We definitely did not attack so if the tactics were not to defend but not to attack either,what was the game plan from Moyes.
Well lets forget about the sitting back or defending argument for a minute.We definitely did not attack so if the tactics were not to defend but not to attack either,what was the game plan from Moyes.
I agree with Dave Wilson....
(guffaw)
Feels kinda cool baby... we never sat back ..... we attacked like zulu warriors man.
In fact..... we won.....yeah...in a religious kinda way.
(guffaw)
Feels kinda cool baby... we never sat back ..... we attacked like zulu warriors man.
In fact..... we won.....yeah...in a religious kinda way.
Zulu warriors Barry, i love that.
Jelavic was like our very own Stanley Baker at Rourk's Drift, standing alone and waiting for support.
Which never came by the way.
"Don't shoot till you see the whites of Jone's eyes."
White's of his eyes ?
We where that far back we couldn't even make out what colour fucking jersey he had on !
Jelavic was like our very own Stanley Baker at Rourk's Drift, standing alone and waiting for support.
Which never came by the way.
"Don't shoot till you see the whites of Jone's eyes."
White's of his eyes ?
We where that far back we couldn't even make out what colour fucking jersey he had on !
So Dave, the media, pundits, a lot of our fans, the shite fans, are all wrong?
Even some lads I know who are fans of Reading, said to me that they couldn't believe why we sat back.
Even some lads I know who are fans of Reading, said to me that they couldn't believe why we sat back.
That's the trouble
Stephen... you "KNOW" the players were told by Moyes to sit back and defend.
Even though you have nothing to substantiate that claim (except a seemingly blind desire to exonerate the players for bottling it ? again) But hey ! like all of Moyes`s critics, you dont seem to just think he told them to sit back ... you "KNOW" it.
I have tried to back up and explain my views but I cant argue with you people who"know" these things ...
Besides I get the distinct impression you guys don't seem to want a view contrary to the one you have, so for that reason. I`m out.
Barry,
Na, How can you answer they guy who doesn't have a point?
But I will say, you look really cool in front of the gang though.
Stephen... you "KNOW" the players were told by Moyes to sit back and defend.
Even though you have nothing to substantiate that claim (except a seemingly blind desire to exonerate the players for bottling it ? again) But hey ! like all of Moyes`s critics, you dont seem to just think he told them to sit back ... you "KNOW" it.
I have tried to back up and explain my views but I cant argue with you people who"know" these things ...
Besides I get the distinct impression you guys don't seem to want a view contrary to the one you have, so for that reason. I`m out.
Barry,
Na, How can you answer they guy who doesn't have a point?
But I will say, you look really cool in front of the gang though.
Also Dave, you keep using Distin's mistake, and how everyone was forward as evidence that we didn't sit back.
So if I say to you, there was an example of us sitting back, the ball was hoofed up to Jelavic, and there wasn't one player within 40 yds of him. Or how in the first half Cahill was always up in support of Jelavic, but in the second half, he was so deep, he was nowhere near him.
So if I say to you, there was an example of us sitting back, the ball was hoofed up to Jelavic, and there wasn't one player within 40 yds of him. Or how in the first half Cahill was always up in support of Jelavic, but in the second half, he was so deep, he was nowhere near him.
Brian
What about the other half of the media, the rest of the pundits - the shite supporters who say were gifted it to them - on the pitch? People who think our players bottled it ... are they all wrong too? ... or could they maybe just have a different opinion.
Nearly everyone now posting on this thread has a long and proven record of being a Moyes critic.
I`ll leave you to it, then you can all tell yourselves there IS no alternative view.
You're right, guys, It was all the manager's fault. Our players were magnificent. They really went to war for you.
What about the other half of the media, the rest of the pundits - the shite supporters who say were gifted it to them - on the pitch? People who think our players bottled it ... are they all wrong too? ... or could they maybe just have a different opinion.
Nearly everyone now posting on this thread has a long and proven record of being a Moyes critic.
I`ll leave you to it, then you can all tell yourselves there IS no alternative view.
You're right, guys, It was all the manager's fault. Our players were magnificent. They really went to war for you.
Ive watched the video of the Distin goal a few times and not including the keeper I reckon there are at least 5 maybe six players in our own half at the time of the pass, which is what you would expect from a cautious team. Regardless of how many where back for the goal, the whole game plan of Moyes is wrong from its inception. Everton I read somewhere has created 70% of its goals from the wings (mainly the left). The highest in the league. We all know if you stop Baines we are a pretty blunt instrument...and he also leaves a big gap for people like Suarez to exploit because Distin has to cover for him..the pressure told in the end with a mistake. The thing I dont get with Moyes over the years is that he decides to sit back but he doesnt use the counter attack as say Italian teams have done for years. Obviously you need pace to do that up front and yet hes never bought anyone with pace apart from Drenthe. Personally I would sell Rodwell or Fellaini for two pacy wingers if he wants continue using the same tactics. Our best hope of keeping a lead with the current staff is simply keeping the ball high up the pitch...something we did against Sunderland but just did not do against the RS. It could very well have been the lack of confidence in the team to beat the RS but I dont think I ever saw Moyes telling the players to push up. If you go defensive you need something up front to keep the opposition wary...we just dont have it.
However you dress it up, aportion the blame, invent acronyms, disect videos...the team and the manager, by their collective and individual actions and inactions betrayed the Everton support at Wembley and the Everton fanbase, all over the world, who watched in dread and disbelief through watery eyes
It's a long time since we were beaten by that shower and haven't had a reason to be bitter about it
Useless, useless bastards (bar 1)
It's a long time since we were beaten by that shower and haven't had a reason to be bitter about it
Useless, useless bastards (bar 1)
Dave, I agree, the players are to blame as well, but I still think thet they were told to go out second half and sit on the lead, so therefore, IMO, Moyes fucked up as well.
Dave
I completely agree the players bottled it and are to blame but for me Moyes has to take the bulk of it,if like you say the players were ignoring his instructions why did he stand back and let it happen?
Surely a manager worth his salt would have brought someone else on to actually carry out his instructions.
Your defence of Moyes might carry more weight if this was a one off but the evidence of this season suggests otherwise.
I've seen Moyes sit back on 1 nil lead,sit back on draws and worst of all i've even seen him sit back on a 2 nil defeat away at Newcastle.
I completely agree the players bottled it and are to blame but for me Moyes has to take the bulk of it,if like you say the players were ignoring his instructions why did he stand back and let it happen?
Surely a manager worth his salt would have brought someone else on to actually carry out his instructions.
Your defence of Moyes might carry more weight if this was a one off but the evidence of this season suggests otherwise.
I've seen Moyes sit back on 1 nil lead,sit back on draws and worst of all i've even seen him sit back on a 2 nil defeat away at Newcastle.
Dave, I thought you were "out" of this argument several times before? You've had more comebacks than Rocky.
Always the sign of someone who is stamping their feet wanting to have the last say and unable to deal with the criticism of their original post that comes their way.
Always the sign of someone who is stamping their feet wanting to have the last say and unable to deal with the criticism of their original post that comes their way.
Jeremy
I come back because people keep addressing posts to me, Look
When your in a debate and people ask you to explain a comment its good manners to respond.
Its not a desire to stamp my feet or have the last word.
I want the debate to continue without me and when people stop adressing their posts to me . . guess what will happen ?
I come back because people keep addressing posts to me, Look
When your in a debate and people ask you to explain a comment its good manners to respond.
Its not a desire to stamp my feet or have the last word.
I want the debate to continue without me and when people stop adressing their posts to me . . guess what will happen ?
Dave 137; and you of course KNOW they weren't, so thats 2 unprovables, 1 on each side.
Me? I will go along with the duck theory, if it walks like a duck, has feathers and quacks like a duck then it is probabley a duck.
Dave 141; now this has been shot down before, mainly at Nurenburg in 1945, the players were following the orders of the boss. They have had it drummed into them for years. This is why ( maybe ? ) Distin got it into his head to pass back to the keeper, to run the clock down, waste time, tough it out, or in Moyeses own words, hold out.
A left footed player is on the left facing his own goal. The easy ball is out for a throw. The skillful going forward ball is to do a 180 and whack it up the line, if it goes out hard cheese, at least you tried.
The KITAP1 ball is back to the keeper, waste time, run down the clock...again to quote Moyes; Hold out. I know what my money's on.
Peter 078; Yep, put me in the I love goals column. Goals win games, most of the time sitting back on 1-0 is a recipe for disaster.
Me? I will go along with the duck theory, if it walks like a duck, has feathers and quacks like a duck then it is probabley a duck.
Dave 141; now this has been shot down before, mainly at Nurenburg in 1945, the players were following the orders of the boss. They have had it drummed into them for years. This is why ( maybe ? ) Distin got it into his head to pass back to the keeper, to run the clock down, waste time, tough it out, or in Moyeses own words, hold out.
A left footed player is on the left facing his own goal. The easy ball is out for a throw. The skillful going forward ball is to do a 180 and whack it up the line, if it goes out hard cheese, at least you tried.
The KITAP1 ball is back to the keeper, waste time, run down the clock...again to quote Moyes; Hold out. I know what my money's on.
Peter 078; Yep, put me in the I love goals column. Goals win games, most of the time sitting back on 1-0 is a recipe for disaster.
Really Derek?
Having watched Moyes teams for years I think the instructions would have been completely different.
I think he would have told his players to play it safe sure. but not by inviting pressure.
I think with Distins pace he would have told them to play a high line against Carrol and Suarez.
I think he would have told them to tackle everything that moves and I think he would have asked Cahill and Jelavic to close down their jittery defenders at every opportunity.
What I DONT think he would have done is ask Cahill to not get to Jelavic and engage their defenders, I dont think he would have asked him to cower from the fight for the third time at Wembley.
I dont think he`s had asked Baines and Fellaini to have their most ineffective games in months..
I dont think he would have asked Nevill to trun his back on the shite and run towards his own goal in a panic every time they got possession.
I dont think he would have asked Maggie to make like a startled Rabbit. Osman to forget how to pass.
I DO think when we entered the final half hour in front he would have expected his senior players to be telling his troops that they were in "nothing silly now lads" time.
I DO think he was very badly let down by senior players who have proven they dont have what it takes win when it really matters.
I DONT think he asked Silvan to have a brain storm and I dont think he asked Seamus to demonstrate the kind of dumbfuckery you would expect from somebody who was playing football for the first time.
I think if our players were professional, winners, we would have won.
I`ve said I dont think Moyes is blameless, because he chose to go with players who have demonstrated they dont have what it takes and therefore shown he doesnt have what it takes either.
I DONT believe a team lead by Neville and Cahill will ever win a trophy ? . .Say what you want, but I believe when a team enters "nothing silly lads" time, the manager is powerless, he has to trust his senior players.
Now you know what I think and I know what you think . .job done
Having watched Moyes teams for years I think the instructions would have been completely different.
I think he would have told his players to play it safe sure. but not by inviting pressure.
I think with Distins pace he would have told them to play a high line against Carrol and Suarez.
I think he would have told them to tackle everything that moves and I think he would have asked Cahill and Jelavic to close down their jittery defenders at every opportunity.
What I DONT think he would have done is ask Cahill to not get to Jelavic and engage their defenders, I dont think he would have asked him to cower from the fight for the third time at Wembley.
I dont think he`s had asked Baines and Fellaini to have their most ineffective games in months..
I dont think he would have asked Nevill to trun his back on the shite and run towards his own goal in a panic every time they got possession.
I dont think he would have asked Maggie to make like a startled Rabbit. Osman to forget how to pass.
I DO think when we entered the final half hour in front he would have expected his senior players to be telling his troops that they were in "nothing silly now lads" time.
I DO think he was very badly let down by senior players who have proven they dont have what it takes win when it really matters.
I DONT think he asked Silvan to have a brain storm and I dont think he asked Seamus to demonstrate the kind of dumbfuckery you would expect from somebody who was playing football for the first time.
I think if our players were professional, winners, we would have won.
I`ve said I dont think Moyes is blameless, because he chose to go with players who have demonstrated they dont have what it takes and therefore shown he doesnt have what it takes either.
I DONT believe a team lead by Neville and Cahill will ever win a trophy ? . .Say what you want, but I believe when a team enters "nothing silly lads" time, the manager is powerless, he has to trust his senior players.
Now you know what I think and I know what you think . .job done
Dave, you've actually got some good points there, but so too have the other guys. How about we agree somewhere in the middle. How about......
1) The players bottled it
2) The players confidence was fragile
3) Moyes selected the wrong players
4) Moyes took a predominantly negative attitude into the game (e.g. insisting on us being underdogs)
5) The half-time team talk was to defend the lead (Moyes does have previous)
6) By defending the lead (aka 'sitting back') we in it'd pressure, invitied more attacks and increased our risk of conceding
7) The players bottled it collectively, not for the first time, but the latest in a long sequence under Moyes.
Where does the fault lie?
Honestly, where?
1) The players bottled it
2) The players confidence was fragile
3) Moyes selected the wrong players
4) Moyes took a predominantly negative attitude into the game (e.g. insisting on us being underdogs)
5) The half-time team talk was to defend the lead (Moyes does have previous)
6) By defending the lead (aka 'sitting back') we in it'd pressure, invitied more attacks and increased our risk of conceding
7) The players bottled it collectively, not for the first time, but the latest in a long sequence under Moyes.
Where does the fault lie?
Honestly, where?
Good try, Robbie, but look at the Chronology:
4) 3) 5) 2) 6) 1) 7)
And before 4, the players were on a good run (except for one game that will live in infamy), and (but for 4) would have been high on confidence going into this one.
4) 3) 5) 2) 6) 1) 7)
And before 4, the players were on a good run (except for one game that will live in infamy), and (but for 4) would have been high on confidence going into this one.
It must be the first war lost where the generals are exonerated and the privates are to blame.
I've seen it happen so many times I know it's a tactic of the manager.
I've seen it happen so many times I know it's a tactic of the manager.
Whilst we are on the very real topic of trying to dissect the woeful performance on Saturday and the smoking gun of KITAP1, has any one else noticed in recent weeks, particularly the Cup games - Tim Howard's tendency to take an age on a) retrieving the ball when it goes out of play and b) the time it takes him to deliver a goal kick. If my memory serves me right he was cautioned for time wasting in the replay at Sunderland and I could swear that from my seat at Wembley that on at least one occasion for a goal kick Howard Webb took a long hard look at him.
Peter
I want to know why Howard has gone from top 3 keepers in the Prem, costing us 2 goals a season. To what he is now, flapping at crosses, punching when I'm sure he never used to, and costing us a goal every half-a-dozen games or so. All this in about 18 months.
I want to know why Howard has gone from top 3 keepers in the Prem, costing us 2 goals a season. To what he is now, flapping at crosses, punching when I'm sure he never used to, and costing us a goal every half-a-dozen games or so. All this in about 18 months.
The thing is this, Dave, these players that you have it in for are the ones he picks and sometimes (eg, Sunderland) they perform just fine. Of course that's rare; usually one or two have a poor game... and in a run of poor form, they would typically get dropped (but that's a whole other bat to beat Moyes with...).
As you can see from the correct sequence of Robbie's analysis, "the players bottled it" comes near the end. That wasn't the cause of having a one-goal lead and losing: it was the direct result of Moyes's admitted response to the situation we were in at half-time. That is when the game was lost. You only have to watch the way we played (or more accurately didn't play) after the break.
You claim Moyes was very badly let down by senior players who have proven they don't have what it takes to win when it really matters. I think that's grossly unfair on the players, who clearly have the ability ? provided the set-up and approach to the game is right (eg, Sunderland).
Senior players let Everton down big time on Saturday because they were unable to rectify the incredibly negative effect of decisions the Management made leading up to and during the game. Moyes calling us underdogs, Round talking up Liverpool, kicking Drenthe to the curb, sitting on a tenuous one-goal lead...
You're gifted a goal and the manager's approach is to KITANP1. It's worked before, of course; there's a chance it would work in this game. A gamble... but it was always going to be the wrong gamble in this situation. It was an FA Cup semi-final, FFS!!!
And Moyes admitted at half-time that Liverpool would come at us and that we had to contain them. At that point, the match was effectively lost. The Distin howler (or something like it) was just a matter of time...
This isn't about loving or hating Moyes, as you have repeatedly tried to characterize it. It's about recognizing and accepting where the responsibility lies. With Distin for making the mistake? Yes, without doubt. But for creating the psychology of defeat when you have the upper hand...???
As you can see from the correct sequence of Robbie's analysis, "the players bottled it" comes near the end. That wasn't the cause of having a one-goal lead and losing: it was the direct result of Moyes's admitted response to the situation we were in at half-time. That is when the game was lost. You only have to watch the way we played (or more accurately didn't play) after the break.
You claim Moyes was very badly let down by senior players who have proven they don't have what it takes to win when it really matters. I think that's grossly unfair on the players, who clearly have the ability ? provided the set-up and approach to the game is right (eg, Sunderland).
Senior players let Everton down big time on Saturday because they were unable to rectify the incredibly negative effect of decisions the Management made leading up to and during the game. Moyes calling us underdogs, Round talking up Liverpool, kicking Drenthe to the curb, sitting on a tenuous one-goal lead...
You're gifted a goal and the manager's approach is to KITANP1. It's worked before, of course; there's a chance it would work in this game. A gamble... but it was always going to be the wrong gamble in this situation. It was an FA Cup semi-final, FFS!!!
And Moyes admitted at half-time that Liverpool would come at us and that we had to contain them. At that point, the match was effectively lost. The Distin howler (or something like it) was just a matter of time...
This isn't about loving or hating Moyes, as you have repeatedly tried to characterize it. It's about recognizing and accepting where the responsibility lies. With Distin for making the mistake? Yes, without doubt. But for creating the psychology of defeat when you have the upper hand...???
Yes Dave, really: I 'know' just like you 'know', but you seem to think that in the case of our 'equal knowing' that some 'knowings' are more equal than others...
Michael 222; what ever the long version of succinct is, your version above is my point exactly.
It doesn't matter as Evertonians where we stand on KITAP1, we are all Blues. It's not where you stand that counts, often it's which way you face.
Do you face the way of Proper (joined up) Football.
Or do you face the way of... acronym (or not) of your choice... Anti-Football.
Michael 222; what ever the long version of succinct is, your version above is my point exactly.
It doesn't matter as Evertonians where we stand on KITAP1, we are all Blues. It's not where you stand that counts, often it's which way you face.
Do you face the way of Proper (joined up) Football.
Or do you face the way of... acronym (or not) of your choice... Anti-Football.
"This isnt about loving or hating Moyes, as you have repeatedly tried to characterize it. its about recognising and accepting where responsibilty lies."
You Mr Kenrick really are having a laff.
If the fabled Toffeeweb MOB really does exist, then they have surely visited this thread.
Nearly everyone who has posted on this thread has for some time now been calling for Moyes to go.
In the past these guys have labled him (amongst other things) as Sickening, A Shithouse, A Coward. A Liar, A Cheat.
They have used words like, Disgust, revulsion, shameful and even hatred . . .You are half right Michael, its certainly not about LOVING Moyes is it ?
This is no ballanced critique of Saturdays match, these guys Knew what the were going to say if we lost, before a ball was even kicked.
Neil Lennon would get a more ballanced assessment on a Glasgow Rangers Website.
Its was Moyes`s fault, pure and simple.END OF!
Offer an alternative view and you will be rounded upon, you will be abused.
Use loose football terminology about players "on the half way line" and the MOB will explode.
Video evidence will be used to demonstrate we DEFINITELY had a couple of players, standing a couple of feet into our half and would therefore prove you to be "A LIAR" ! "AN IMBECILLE" . .a FUCKEN MUPPET !
!t gets better. .you`ll be told you are the only one in the world with these views. "EVERYONE" thinks Moyes is to blame.
The Media (yes those "Moyes loving gobshites") will suddenly be portrayed as the gospel.
Self proffessed footballing Einsteins like Nelly will shout you down, there will now be "SIX Everton players in our half" - By the way Nelly lad, did Suarez weave his way past them all, or did they pass their way through ?
You`ll be told to "stand down", "man up" "Admit you are wrong"
people like Eugene and Barry (bless him) may not make a point, but they will throw a few personel insults to prove to the gang that they are card carrying MOBsters.
Dave Lynch will throw his support behind the point Barry never made.
You`ll be told "the whole entire nation" disagrees with you.
Jeremy Benson Hates that you have an alternative view and will keep comming back to ask you . . why you keep coming back.
This thread has reminded me of a jack Nicholson Line in As Good As It Gets "Sell crazy some place else, we`re all stocked up here.
I guess the general idea is to shout down any alternative view. To silence anybody who does`nt bame Moyes when their car wont start. . . Intimidation .
Honestly guys, if It`ll make you feel better I will tell you my bottom lip is quivering . .but I think you would be better advised to try reasoned debate instead ?
If you REALLY want to explore what went wrong, to find out were the responsibilty lies, You might want to explore the POSSIBILITY that two of the worst clangers in Wembley history had a little bit to do with our defeat.
BTW "Guffaw" ? . . .Fuck me
You Mr Kenrick really are having a laff.
If the fabled Toffeeweb MOB really does exist, then they have surely visited this thread.
Nearly everyone who has posted on this thread has for some time now been calling for Moyes to go.
In the past these guys have labled him (amongst other things) as Sickening, A Shithouse, A Coward. A Liar, A Cheat.
They have used words like, Disgust, revulsion, shameful and even hatred . . .You are half right Michael, its certainly not about LOVING Moyes is it ?
This is no ballanced critique of Saturdays match, these guys Knew what the were going to say if we lost, before a ball was even kicked.
Neil Lennon would get a more ballanced assessment on a Glasgow Rangers Website.
Its was Moyes`s fault, pure and simple.END OF!
Offer an alternative view and you will be rounded upon, you will be abused.
Use loose football terminology about players "on the half way line" and the MOB will explode.
Video evidence will be used to demonstrate we DEFINITELY had a couple of players, standing a couple of feet into our half and would therefore prove you to be "A LIAR" ! "AN IMBECILLE" . .a FUCKEN MUPPET !
!t gets better. .you`ll be told you are the only one in the world with these views. "EVERYONE" thinks Moyes is to blame.
The Media (yes those "Moyes loving gobshites") will suddenly be portrayed as the gospel.
Self proffessed footballing Einsteins like Nelly will shout you down, there will now be "SIX Everton players in our half" - By the way Nelly lad, did Suarez weave his way past them all, or did they pass their way through ?
You`ll be told to "stand down", "man up" "Admit you are wrong"
people like Eugene and Barry (bless him) may not make a point, but they will throw a few personel insults to prove to the gang that they are card carrying MOBsters.
Dave Lynch will throw his support behind the point Barry never made.
You`ll be told "the whole entire nation" disagrees with you.
Jeremy Benson Hates that you have an alternative view and will keep comming back to ask you . . why you keep coming back.
This thread has reminded me of a jack Nicholson Line in As Good As It Gets "Sell crazy some place else, we`re all stocked up here.
I guess the general idea is to shout down any alternative view. To silence anybody who does`nt bame Moyes when their car wont start. . . Intimidation .
Honestly guys, if It`ll make you feel better I will tell you my bottom lip is quivering . .but I think you would be better advised to try reasoned debate instead ?
If you REALLY want to explore what went wrong, to find out were the responsibilty lies, You might want to explore the POSSIBILITY that two of the worst clangers in Wembley history had a little bit to do with our defeat.
BTW "Guffaw" ? . . .Fuck me
Dave
loving it, I don't know why but I do.
If Moyes doesn't seek you out and give you a medal he should.
We cross swords all the time but may I add a name to your list?
LEGEND.
loving it, I don't know why but I do.
If Moyes doesn't seek you out and give you a medal he should.
We cross swords all the time but may I add a name to your list?
LEGEND.
Hahaha... You are so deluded, Dave, it's fucken hilarious.
Let's recap: you lied about how many players were in which half because you mistakenly thought it proved your point. You were completely wrong as it wasn't just "a couple" but SIX Everton players in their own half!!! As you clearly have trouble counting, I will help you out: That's more than half the Everton team!!
As you seem to be confused, this bullshit was all of your own invention! If you hadn't blatantly lied and then persistently refused to admit the fullness of your ridiculous error, this thread would have died the death ages ago.
But instead, you come up with all sorts of crap... 'alternative view' ? my arse. It was a a completely fatuous view, proven wrong by video technology.
Better luck next time, Dave!
Let's recap: you lied about how many players were in which half because you mistakenly thought it proved your point. You were completely wrong as it wasn't just "a couple" but SIX Everton players in their own half!!! As you clearly have trouble counting, I will help you out: That's more than half the Everton team!!
As you seem to be confused, this bullshit was all of your own invention! If you hadn't blatantly lied and then persistently refused to admit the fullness of your ridiculous error, this thread would have died the death ages ago.
But instead, you come up with all sorts of crap... 'alternative view' ? my arse. It was a a completely fatuous view, proven wrong by video technology.
Better luck next time, Dave!
I think we should change our motto from NSNO to KITAP1. At least with the latter there's presence of número uno. I wouldn't want to settle for second best right?!
Dave Wilson: "we were camped in their fucken half"..."which side were sitting back?"
You watched a different game to me.
Why would they "sit back" when they were losing 1-0 ?
You watched a different game to me.
Why would they "sit back" when they were losing 1-0 ?
He's completely hat-stand!
Poor Dave Wilson. Not an iota of support! Well I think you do make some fair points.
Surely people realise that any team sitting on a 1-0 lead in a huge match are likely to get nervous and cautious. This happens to nearly every team from under 8s to top Premier League teams (seen it happen to City, Chelsea and Arsenal in Europe).
Given the success of previous weeks, I find it highly unlikely Moyes would suggest a sudden change of tactics at this crucial moment and I don't think anyone on here has any hard evidence that it was his specific instruction rather than general awe of the occasion.
The players were misplacing passes that they had made look easy in the preceding weeks... was that Moyes's instruction too??!!! Moyes is not blameless but to me it appeared a clear case of our players not dealing so well with the pressure, hence an uncharacteristic individual error that turned the game around.
Surely people realise that any team sitting on a 1-0 lead in a huge match are likely to get nervous and cautious. This happens to nearly every team from under 8s to top Premier League teams (seen it happen to City, Chelsea and Arsenal in Europe).
Given the success of previous weeks, I find it highly unlikely Moyes would suggest a sudden change of tactics at this crucial moment and I don't think anyone on here has any hard evidence that it was his specific instruction rather than general awe of the occasion.
The players were misplacing passes that they had made look easy in the preceding weeks... was that Moyes's instruction too??!!! Moyes is not blameless but to me it appeared a clear case of our players not dealing so well with the pressure, hence an uncharacteristic individual error that turned the game around.
Hang on a minute Dave.......
"It gets better. .you`ll be told you are the only one in the world with these views....."
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you in the past claimed to know what the match going Evertonian thinks and that you know you speak for the majority? That you knew the 40,000 at the match were all clapping in universal support of Moyes?
Something's not quite right is it??????
"It gets better. .you`ll be told you are the only one in the world with these views....."
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you in the past claimed to know what the match going Evertonian thinks and that you know you speak for the majority? That you knew the 40,000 at the match were all clapping in universal support of Moyes?
Something's not quite right is it??????
Wow... this still going? Why not just take a look at the tape?
Michael
Scenario for you: You go to GP (ok already far fetched, but stay with it). You are sitting in Park End when suddenly some nutter comes up, he grabs you by the Ging Gangs, and proceeds to drag you over the wall and down the pitch. Just short of the half way line he lets go and does a runner. You charge down to Walton Buzy station and scream the fucken house down.
Now this gets to court. The CPS have a around 33,000 witness but they discard a few dozen of them straight away. The few dozen who won't be considered are the TW MOB. a) Because the are all mad as March fucken Hares. b) Because although they (CPS) and the rest of the sane world (The people the MOB refer to as "fuccckkkken apologist") know there was a team talk taken place. The MOB will still insist your attacker was indeed Davey Moyes himself.
The attacker is brought to court and when all the evidence is heard, the jury retire to examine video footage: "Hang on" one of them say, "didnt this lying twat tell us he was dragged to the half way line"? "What a load of fucken poppycock, he`s at least two foot short"
This case is thrown out and you are branded a liar (he he).
Now, I know this is unlikely to happen. but, if it ever does, don't come whining to us that those two feet were completely irrelevant.
BTW; Michael
If you really are going to demonstrate how unfamiliar with football terminology, you might want to steer away from telling us Jelavic turned with a defender up his arse in your next match report.
Robbie
Hands up, Fair-ish cop.
Paul Andrews.
If you can see your way to showing me a post where I claim "we were CAMPED in their half" I would be grateful. It would go a very long way to explaining why you and the rest of the WHACKO`S who saw "half of our team" defending in our own half when Suarez scored.
In a thread dripping with irony My vote goes to the teachers pet Eugene.
"Madness awaits" ... fucken AWAITS?
Michael
Scenario for you: You go to GP (ok already far fetched, but stay with it). You are sitting in Park End when suddenly some nutter comes up, he grabs you by the Ging Gangs, and proceeds to drag you over the wall and down the pitch. Just short of the half way line he lets go and does a runner. You charge down to Walton Buzy station and scream the fucken house down.
Now this gets to court. The CPS have a around 33,000 witness but they discard a few dozen of them straight away. The few dozen who won't be considered are the TW MOB. a) Because the are all mad as March fucken Hares. b) Because although they (CPS) and the rest of the sane world (The people the MOB refer to as "fuccckkkken apologist") know there was a team talk taken place. The MOB will still insist your attacker was indeed Davey Moyes himself.
The attacker is brought to court and when all the evidence is heard, the jury retire to examine video footage: "Hang on" one of them say, "didnt this lying twat tell us he was dragged to the half way line"? "What a load of fucken poppycock, he`s at least two foot short"
This case is thrown out and you are branded a liar (he he).
Now, I know this is unlikely to happen. but, if it ever does, don't come whining to us that those two feet were completely irrelevant.
BTW; Michael
If you really are going to demonstrate how unfamiliar with football terminology, you might want to steer away from telling us Jelavic turned with a defender up his arse in your next match report.
Robbie
Hands up, Fair-ish cop.
Paul Andrews.
If you can see your way to showing me a post where I claim "we were CAMPED in their half" I would be grateful. It would go a very long way to explaining why you and the rest of the WHACKO`S who saw "half of our team" defending in our own half when Suarez scored.
In a thread dripping with irony My vote goes to the teachers pet Eugene.
"Madness awaits" ... fucken AWAITS?
Dave, please don't ever change, this is what ToffeeWeb is all about, and what makes it so great.
I'm really looking forward to the change in dynamics on ToffeeWeb when we do get a new manager, it will be very intersecting to see everyone's thoughts and reactions to events.
I'm really looking forward to the change in dynamics on ToffeeWeb when we do get a new manager, it will be very intersecting to see everyone's thoughts and reactions to events.
Jesus Dave... you get more precious by the post
"Reasoned debate"? The people who post on here are passionate, biased, semi-gutted, Everton-daft Evertonians; this is their forum ? not the Oxford Union.
Let it wash over you, draw the curtains and have a lie down.
"Reasoned debate"? The people who post on here are passionate, biased, semi-gutted, Everton-daft Evertonians; this is their forum ? not the Oxford Union.
Let it wash over you, draw the curtains and have a lie down.
Phil
Do you think I`m not completely wrecked by last week? Like you I`m still comming to terms with 71, 77, 84, 86, 89 .... This for me is the worst of the lot.
I come on here to give my take on it. I accept I`m in a minority of one (on this thread).. but it was still MY TAKE.
What is it you guys want? Do you really want to become the flip side of Kipper?
Maybe I don't have the writing skills to put it acroos properly, but I`m trying to use humour to respond to some pretty malicious name-calling.
Read the thread lad.
Do you think I`m not completely wrecked by last week? Like you I`m still comming to terms with 71, 77, 84, 86, 89 .... This for me is the worst of the lot.
I come on here to give my take on it. I accept I`m in a minority of one (on this thread).. but it was still MY TAKE.
What is it you guys want? Do you really want to become the flip side of Kipper?
Maybe I don't have the writing skills to put it acroos properly, but I`m trying to use humour to respond to some pretty malicious name-calling.
Read the thread lad.
Dave
Please don't patronise me. I'm not a 'lad' and your posts are wee bit hard to wade though sometimes.
I am merely offering advice that you keep a sense of humour and proportion when dealing with emotional, hurt, depressive fellow Blues. I am not offended if you disgree with or reject that advice.
You often come across a bit menopausal to be honest.
Please don't patronise me. I'm not a 'lad' and your posts are wee bit hard to wade though sometimes.
I am merely offering advice that you keep a sense of humour and proportion when dealing with emotional, hurt, depressive fellow Blues. I am not offended if you disgree with or reject that advice.
You often come across a bit menopausal to be honest.
Dave, if the paragraph you pointed me to is the one I think it is, I'm glad you have that attitude towards Moyes, but your assessment of "the MOB knew what they were going to post before the match" is pretty far off.
Firstly, we all thought we'd probably be posting about a win.
Secondly, most of us probably thought that if we did lose, we'd be on here lamenting the injustice of another referee joining that long list of twats.
And, third, we DIDN'T think we'd be on here discussing how Moyes, although not directly to blame for their goals, failed to learn from two of his biggest domestic lessons - the 09 final, and the last Anfield derby.
Firstly, we all thought we'd probably be posting about a win.
Secondly, most of us probably thought that if we did lose, we'd be on here lamenting the injustice of another referee joining that long list of twats.
And, third, we DIDN'T think we'd be on here discussing how Moyes, although not directly to blame for their goals, failed to learn from two of his biggest domestic lessons - the 09 final, and the last Anfield derby.
Dave mate, take a deep breath, we all feel the pain, I'm not as old as you BUT I have experienced the pain of everything you described with the exception of 71 and 77. Your absolutely right ToffeeWeb must not become the complete antithesis of BlueKipper, and your defense of Moyes does have some merit.
Perhaps take a little break, like I did, and re-assess without being drawn into defending yourself all the time, which can turn into a bit of a siege mentality, which is understandable.
There are a lot of very hurt Evertonians on here, some think they saw it coming (I include myeslf in that group but I certainly was not 100% sure), some feel the gods are against us, some feel they've been duped and are feeling angry and sheepish, and others still can't bare to think they've trusted and backed someone who isn't what they believed they were (which I think you may fall into).
It is still possible that Moyes is the Moyesiah, but I've got to say that does look pretty remote given the evidence. I think the time for change has finally arrived, and whoever steps up to the plate, let's back him 100%, you me and every other Evertonian.
Perhaps take a little break, like I did, and re-assess without being drawn into defending yourself all the time, which can turn into a bit of a siege mentality, which is understandable.
There are a lot of very hurt Evertonians on here, some think they saw it coming (I include myeslf in that group but I certainly was not 100% sure), some feel the gods are against us, some feel they've been duped and are feeling angry and sheepish, and others still can't bare to think they've trusted and backed someone who isn't what they believed they were (which I think you may fall into).
It is still possible that Moyes is the Moyesiah, but I've got to say that does look pretty remote given the evidence. I think the time for change has finally arrived, and whoever steps up to the plate, let's back him 100%, you me and every other Evertonian.
Dave
re your list; it's probably only natural that Liverpool defeats hurt more but do you remember the awful semis of 69 and 80 (City and West Ham)?
And when we got beat 3-2 in the QF at Forest in 67, it shattered me ? Foinavon day, if I remember rightly.
re your list; it's probably only natural that Liverpool defeats hurt more but do you remember the awful semis of 69 and 80 (City and West Ham)?
And when we got beat 3-2 in the QF at Forest in 67, it shattered me ? Foinavon day, if I remember rightly.
Someone said on an early post - not sure if it was on this thread or not - that the reaction Moyes gets at our next home game, which is against Fulham, will be a good gauge as to what will happen next.
My question is, what are people expecting from this Sunday? With the exception of Baines, we're still the same team that beat City, Chelsea, and Spurs in short succession. Will Toffees the world over simply shrug off a pasting at Old Trafford in light of our cup exit? Or, should it be expected that Moyes sends the team out to prove to the world that they aren't a roll over team and they still have something to play for?
I have an idea what IS going to happen, but that isn't necessarily what SHOULD happen.
My question is, what are people expecting from this Sunday? With the exception of Baines, we're still the same team that beat City, Chelsea, and Spurs in short succession. Will Toffees the world over simply shrug off a pasting at Old Trafford in light of our cup exit? Or, should it be expected that Moyes sends the team out to prove to the world that they aren't a roll over team and they still have something to play for?
I have an idea what IS going to happen, but that isn't necessarily what SHOULD happen.
Roman, I was expecting the usual 'keep it tight' until 85 minutes and getting beat 2-0, now the thought of Valencia flying passed Neville and the image of Young diving to get Hibbert sent off gives me the cold sweats, I fear a mauling now.
Not many teams get change out of Man U at Old Trafford and as a text this morning states, Everton have lodged a complaint about the penalty awarded to Man U this coming Sunday.
I also expect that they will be deflated by getting beat by the spawn of Hell and it is going to be ugly.
Not many teams get change out of Man U at Old Trafford and as a text this morning states, Everton have lodged a complaint about the penalty awarded to Man U this coming Sunday.
I also expect that they will be deflated by getting beat by the spawn of Hell and it is going to be ugly.
Mauling it is for me unforunately.
Long ball up to Jelavic and a thoroughly miserable day with Moyes trotting out the usual soundbites about Fergie and Fergie the same in return.
Might take the kids to see the giant woodentops and swerve the game altogether.
Long ball up to Jelavic and a thoroughly miserable day with Moyes trotting out the usual soundbites about Fergie and Fergie the same in return.
Might take the kids to see the giant woodentops and swerve the game altogether.
Phil
Don't you live in Liverpool? And if so, do you really feel patronised by being called 'lad'? It wasn't meant to be. Everyone I know will some times call me 'lad', even my lad calls me 'lad' and I fully expect the time to come when his lad starts calling me 'lad'.
Robbie
Moyes has one really strong point. He is terrific at creating a genuine team spirit, no more, no less.
He was never, isnt and never will be the Moyesiah. I think in 10 years he has had a fair crack of the whip.
I have said twice that I think he should now go ?that's not to say I won't support him if he stays ? but that seems to make not one jot of difference to the MOB.
The siege mentality is usually only adopted by those under siege, people who simply refuse to be shouted down.
Don't you live in Liverpool? And if so, do you really feel patronised by being called 'lad'? It wasn't meant to be. Everyone I know will some times call me 'lad', even my lad calls me 'lad' and I fully expect the time to come when his lad starts calling me 'lad'.
Robbie
Moyes has one really strong point. He is terrific at creating a genuine team spirit, no more, no less.
He was never, isnt and never will be the Moyesiah. I think in 10 years he has had a fair crack of the whip.
I have said twice that I think he should now go ?that's not to say I won't support him if he stays ? but that seems to make not one jot of difference to the MOB.
The siege mentality is usually only adopted by those under siege, people who simply refuse to be shouted down.
The point is even when when we have a sniff of winning some silverware, Rather than embrace the opportunity Moyes just sets us up for more of the same, keep safe avoid relegation % football.
In cup football esp you have to play to win.
In cup football esp you have to play to win.
I think the Utd match will be a watershed moment.
He must have heard the criticism from the fans and even sections of the press. If he starts at Man U =I ve then we know he may have learnt something.
If it's one up front and everyone back and Cahill being his usual spent self then it will the annual Everton spit roast rodgering at Old Trafford again.
He must have heard the criticism from the fans and even sections of the press. If he starts at Man U =I ve then we know he may have learnt something.
If it's one up front and everyone back and Cahill being his usual spent self then it will the annual Everton spit roast rodgering at Old Trafford again.
Dave Wilson - have you tried valium ?
Daniel (#735) a few years ago before he started believing his own publicity, the fans gave him the bird with a late, negative substitution at home to Tottenham, who then proceeded to score a late winner. He came out in the press afterwards with words to the effect of he was surprised, but understood the depth of the fans feeling.
Fast forward to this season, the capitulation at Anfield (which many of us believe set the tone for Wembley) and his comments after that game, and subsequently after the semi final defeat.
He's obviously taken us as far as he thinks he can. Sadly, he's right, but I also think it's as much down to his mentality as to the shortcomings of the board.
With all the managerial goings on in the summer to come, watch how the press continue to link him with posts, and how nothing ever comes of it. But, it will give Kenwright the perfect opportunity to offer his heat shield another lengthy, bumper contract that is ill-deserved in as much as we can ill-afford it.
Fast forward to this season, the capitulation at Anfield (which many of us believe set the tone for Wembley) and his comments after that game, and subsequently after the semi final defeat.
He's obviously taken us as far as he thinks he can. Sadly, he's right, but I also think it's as much down to his mentality as to the shortcomings of the board.
With all the managerial goings on in the summer to come, watch how the press continue to link him with posts, and how nothing ever comes of it. But, it will give Kenwright the perfect opportunity to offer his heat shield another lengthy, bumper contract that is ill-deserved in as much as we can ill-afford it.
He doesn't need valium Peter.
I think he has been very reserved, especially seeing some of the names he has been called on here.
He has made a valid point, yes it was only one instance in the second half, but it was certainly valid. If we were sitting back the whole time, why were there no other defenders near Suarez when Distin had his moment of insanity?
It's a valid question... and before people start going all Hanibal Lechter on me, I have already stated that we started sitting back in the first half straight after the goal... but we did try and go forward on occassion.
I think he has been very reserved, especially seeing some of the names he has been called on here.
He has made a valid point, yes it was only one instance in the second half, but it was certainly valid. If we were sitting back the whole time, why were there no other defenders near Suarez when Distin had his moment of insanity?
It's a valid question... and before people start going all Hanibal Lechter on me, I have already stated that we started sitting back in the first half straight after the goal... but we did try and go forward on occassion.
Had a good laugh at that text, Tony.
Daniel, that's what's confusing. Moyes sacrificed the derby for the cup, but then when we progressed to the semi in the cup, he bent over.
Why bother? We may as well have sent out the kids from training the other day against Tamworth.
Daniel, that's what's confusing. Moyes sacrificed the derby for the cup, but then when we progressed to the semi in the cup, he bent over.
Why bother? We may as well have sent out the kids from training the other day against Tamworth.
Fair doos Dave, granted that 'most' players seem to suggest a good team spirit. I would say though, that if you gave me £3M a year and allowed me to pay 30 athletes £1M a year plus minimum, I'm pretty sure I could get a good team spirit going too ;)
Also, there does appear to be a fair few players who perhaps wouldn't necessarily agree with that: Andy Johnson, Drenthe, Lescott, Rooney, Saha, Beattie, Radsinski, Barkley perhaps ? to name but a few.
Also, there does appear to be a fair few players who perhaps wouldn't necessarily agree with that: Andy Johnson, Drenthe, Lescott, Rooney, Saha, Beattie, Radsinski, Barkley perhaps ? to name but a few.
Hi Dave
It's "lar" in Liverpool 8
I think lad (and mate)'s a North End thing
It's "lar" in Liverpool 8
I think lad (and mate)'s a North End thing
Robbie, if you're one of Moyes's favourites (Neville, Cahill etc), they know their place is never under threat, regardless how shit they play. They must love it at Everton knowing they're under no pressure from the manager, they can do no wrong in his eyes. He gives them wages they would get nowhere else on contracts well into their 30s when most clubs only give 1- or 2-year deals at that age. That's why they're always the players banging on about team spirit ? they can't believe their luck!!
No wonder posters have been at each other's throats all week. I still feel shit after watching us roll over again. I was getting on a coach this time last week, believing it was our time at last.
We are now off to play the Mancs on Sunday, and I really believe we will get thrashed, we will be happy to keep the score respectable.
Moyes will see a 1-0 defeat as a good result, does anyone believe this is the mind-set of a winner?
It does not matter who was to blame for the defeat at Wembley, the fact is we are all still hurting and there is no light at the end of this particular tunnel.
If a change of manager brings hope, then I am all for change. It may not work out, but at least we tried something new.
7-1 against those twats in one season is enough humiliation for any blue.
We are now off to play the Mancs on Sunday, and I really believe we will get thrashed, we will be happy to keep the score respectable.
Moyes will see a 1-0 defeat as a good result, does anyone believe this is the mind-set of a winner?
It does not matter who was to blame for the defeat at Wembley, the fact is we are all still hurting and there is no light at the end of this particular tunnel.
If a change of manager brings hope, then I am all for change. It may not work out, but at least we tried something new.
7-1 against those twats in one season is enough humiliation for any blue.
Phil dont forget "kid". "A'rite kid, wot's appanin?" is the usual greeting round my neck.
Paul, I agree 100%, no arguments from me. I was actually trying to be diplomatic (something I'm not particularly good at). It's all go way too cosy, no expectations, play till you die (what happened to the no more contracts once your 30 philosophy?) if you toe the party line!!!!!!! Dangerous model IMHO, not likely to win you anything.
Kevin, I suspect the humiliation has only just begun. Moyes will play into Ferguson's hands and I'm expecting no shots on goal and to concede at least 4. Happy days.
I was agreeing with you, Robbie, and backing up your argument; maybe I didn't make that clear.
Unlike most I really dont see a thrashing coming our way at all.
Moyes is in his favoured position of underdog with the world seemingly against him. He's like a pig in muck in that situation and will have the players right up for proving people wrong.
I think we will at the very least put a solid performance in and at best United will get a hard earned point.
And therein lies my problem with him. We will play well when it doesn't matter. Some will come on Monday and say how can you want him to go when we play like that at OT(or the Etihad, or Emirates).
But I know that if we were going there with something to play for we'd be like frightened mice. It's always the way and will always be the way.
His inherently cautious nature will always come to the fore when it matters. A fella like Holloway may decide to go hell for leather and cost you the bigh games too.
Knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em is a skill. I'm ready for a bit more after 10 years of sticking and that's what most feel by the look of it.
Moyes is in his favoured position of underdog with the world seemingly against him. He's like a pig in muck in that situation and will have the players right up for proving people wrong.
I think we will at the very least put a solid performance in and at best United will get a hard earned point.
And therein lies my problem with him. We will play well when it doesn't matter. Some will come on Monday and say how can you want him to go when we play like that at OT(or the Etihad, or Emirates).
But I know that if we were going there with something to play for we'd be like frightened mice. It's always the way and will always be the way.
His inherently cautious nature will always come to the fore when it matters. A fella like Holloway may decide to go hell for leather and cost you the bigh games too.
Knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em is a skill. I'm ready for a bit more after 10 years of sticking and that's what most feel by the look of it.
If we don't get a thrashing it will still be a one-nil defeat, I cannot see us scoring unless Jelavic scores with the only half-chance he will get all game. Utd don't usually fuck up at this time of the season and we're out of luck with some sort of miracle as Wigan already used that up with their win.
Stephen, I'm in agreement with you, this is Moyes speciality, no hope, underdogs backs to the wall, it wouldn't surprise me, especially given how much stick he's got over the last week, that he'll go there with a depleted squad and get a win!
Please Dave, IF that happens, don't say that it is proof of Moyes being a superb Manager, please, I don't think I could take it.
Please Dave, IF that happens, don't say that it is proof of Moyes being a superb Manager, please, I don't think I could take it.
So Robbie, Martinez is a miracle worker when he won but if we win on Sunday, Moyes can't use it in his CV as a good game?
Stephen, What abour the games against City, Chelsea and Spurs?....surely they were important games as we were floating nearer to the relegation zone than most would have liked?
Stephen, What abour the games against City, Chelsea and Spurs?....surely they were important games as we were floating nearer to the relegation zone than most would have liked?
Tony,
Good performances all of them especially the Chelsea game as we played a bit too.
But nobody expected us to win. Getting something was a bonus.
No expectation = no pressure
Despite the obvious I don't enjoy slating Moyes. He's got a lot of good qualities that I'd like in any manager.
Also I think some time away from Everton would see him come back into the game with a slightly different attitude to the one he has now.
It suits Bill to moan about money constantly and this has seeped through to Moyes(It would seep through to all of us eventually) who now get's his excuses in advance, he never used to be like that.
He's been coached into a defeatist attitude IMO and this has affected his outlook on the game and what can be achieved.
Even you must agree he's not the fella who walked in full of fire and optimism ten years ago?
Good performances all of them especially the Chelsea game as we played a bit too.
But nobody expected us to win. Getting something was a bonus.
No expectation = no pressure
Despite the obvious I don't enjoy slating Moyes. He's got a lot of good qualities that I'd like in any manager.
Also I think some time away from Everton would see him come back into the game with a slightly different attitude to the one he has now.
It suits Bill to moan about money constantly and this has seeped through to Moyes(It would seep through to all of us eventually) who now get's his excuses in advance, he never used to be like that.
He's been coached into a defeatist attitude IMO and this has affected his outlook on the game and what can be achieved.
Even you must agree he's not the fella who walked in full of fire and optimism ten years ago?
Robbie
There has been an awful lot of toffeweb Rule breaking going on in this thread - especially from the guy who set down those rules.
In his frantic attempts to destroy my credibility he has blown his own to fuckdoms come.
The fact that my posts today have been allowed to stand tells me "miss " is not on duty.
She`s going to be very very cross when she comes back and I expect my next ban to be a perminent one.
Eugene will be pleased, because he`ll have nobody to "not be bothered about" and "ignore"
TW on the other hand will take a step nearer to becoming the polar opposite of those sites you all say you despise - Black Kipper
You will of course forget about all those people who have "dissappeared" and claim you subscribe to the site were all views are welcome.
Unfortunately you will be deluding yourselves.
Kenrick will, either delete this post, make another cowardly attack (only this time he`ll block the response) or the thread will dissappear.
Although nothing can make up for last week, if Moyes pulls this one off I will think of the MOB
And you can be very assured I`ll be fucken pissing myself.
I`ll be at OT on Sunday ; win lose or draw
There has been an awful lot of toffeweb Rule breaking going on in this thread - especially from the guy who set down those rules.
In his frantic attempts to destroy my credibility he has blown his own to fuckdoms come.
The fact that my posts today have been allowed to stand tells me "miss " is not on duty.
She`s going to be very very cross when she comes back and I expect my next ban to be a perminent one.
Eugene will be pleased, because he`ll have nobody to "not be bothered about" and "ignore"
TW on the other hand will take a step nearer to becoming the polar opposite of those sites you all say you despise - Black Kipper
You will of course forget about all those people who have "dissappeared" and claim you subscribe to the site were all views are welcome.
Unfortunately you will be deluding yourselves.
Kenrick will, either delete this post, make another cowardly attack (only this time he`ll block the response) or the thread will dissappear.
Although nothing can make up for last week, if Moyes pulls this one off I will think of the MOB
And you can be very assured I`ll be fucken pissing myself.
I`ll be at OT on Sunday ; win lose or draw
You have got to respect the view of our greatest ever manager regarding the way the team is set up to play.
Taken from today's Liverpool Echo:
"I also think Nikica Jelavic was too isolated as the game wore on, and maybe it?d be an idea to give him a proper strike partner for the remaining games of the season.
The more the Croatian gets isolated in games, the more frustrated he will become."
Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2012/04/20/howard-kendall-everton-fc-lacked-leaders-in-the-middle-when-it-counted-at-wembley-100252-30799409/#ixzz1sa5QLXAZ
Taken from today's Liverpool Echo:
"I also think Nikica Jelavic was too isolated as the game wore on, and maybe it?d be an idea to give him a proper strike partner for the remaining games of the season.
The more the Croatian gets isolated in games, the more frustrated he will become."
Read More http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2012/04/20/howard-kendall-everton-fc-lacked-leaders-in-the-middle-when-it-counted-at-wembley-100252-30799409/#ixzz1sa5QLXAZ
Just watched the whole match again.
Whilst we DID sit back second half, the reason we lost the match was not because of this, nor because of one mistake from Sylvan Distin, or a shit tackle from Seamus, it was because Leon Osman forgot how to play football, and Tim Cahill has become almost completely ineffective. Phil Neville may be the captain and have all of his experience but he was showing none of it.
I actually thought everyone else had a pretty decent game (except Magaye, but he is still young and learning).
IMHO I lay the blame at the feet of Cahill, Osman and Neville.
ps: Moyes IS still a young manager, and gut wrenching, soul destroying defeats like this may eventually cause him to change his mindset slightly. (Hopefully!)
Whilst we DID sit back second half, the reason we lost the match was not because of this, nor because of one mistake from Sylvan Distin, or a shit tackle from Seamus, it was because Leon Osman forgot how to play football, and Tim Cahill has become almost completely ineffective. Phil Neville may be the captain and have all of his experience but he was showing none of it.
I actually thought everyone else had a pretty decent game (except Magaye, but he is still young and learning).
IMHO I lay the blame at the feet of Cahill, Osman and Neville.
ps: Moyes IS still a young manager, and gut wrenching, soul destroying defeats like this may eventually cause him to change his mindset slightly. (Hopefully!)
Kevin thanks for that, when you said our greatest ever manager I thought you was being sarcastic and it was actually Moyes giving the interview. I felt a twitch at the thought of 2 up front.
Dave,
Just in case you get banned where do you bevy?
I've got to argue with someone.
Just in case you get banned where do you bevy?
I've got to argue with someone.
Dave
Why should you be banned?
If all us deluded, irrational, self-opinionated, full of themselves and their own impotance posters were banned, Michael and Lyndon wouldn't have much to do, would they? Be honest...
Why should you be banned?
If all us deluded, irrational, self-opinionated, full of themselves and their own impotance posters were banned, Michael and Lyndon wouldn't have much to do, would they? Be honest...
erratum... "impotence"
Stephen, I'd lock Dave and Martin Mason in a room and see what happened
Stephen, I'd lock Dave and Martin Mason in a room and see what happened
Phil,
Haha. Fireworks would be my guess. That said.
While I never agree with Dave I almost always respect his opinion.
Martin is a WUM of the lowest order.
Haha. Fireworks would be my guess. That said.
While I never agree with Dave I almost always respect his opinion.
Martin is a WUM of the lowest order.
Roman, if we go to OT and play great even win on Sunday, it will only make me angrier than I already am about the semi-final, that?s such a stupid thing to say but my reaction would be why not play like that last week?
Moyes played his card at the Anfield derby and it failed, he then realised this and played attacking attractive football leading up to the semi then decided to change tactics and play safe.
Baines hardly ever made any overlaps and they had a third choice GK yet we hardly tested him, be that from crosses or even direct play ? a total disgrace and I blame the Manager.
I never usually subscribe to kicking the manager but I think it's time he moved on, it?s best for both parties. We will never ever play a worse RS team at Wembley than what we played last week and we still capitulated.
Moyes actions/tactics over the last couple of weeks have left him exposed and he has dented the pride of the supporters and the club. He played the same team that turned out against Sunderland Away, which was the correct choice, but asked them to play in a different way, that was obvious from the first 5 minutes; I could see it why didn?t he?
We should have taken the lead and dictated the game to what we wanted; we didn?t ? we played safe against a shite team and that's what hurts us all. We deserved to lose; the best team on the day won, that?s why he should go as we should be better.
I?m making the 500-mile round-trip to the Fulham game as usual but, if I?m honest, I don?t know why I bother. One last point, he dropped Drenthe the day before to make a point, why? Why not put him on the bench and get to the final first and them discipline him? No he believed he can do what he wants, well I am afraid he is not Sir Alex.
Joe Royle had a similar decision to make before a derby match and he did the opposite to Moyes;, his record against them was excellent. Royle was an Evertonian, Moyes is just a pretender.
Moyes played his card at the Anfield derby and it failed, he then realised this and played attacking attractive football leading up to the semi then decided to change tactics and play safe.
Baines hardly ever made any overlaps and they had a third choice GK yet we hardly tested him, be that from crosses or even direct play ? a total disgrace and I blame the Manager.
I never usually subscribe to kicking the manager but I think it's time he moved on, it?s best for both parties. We will never ever play a worse RS team at Wembley than what we played last week and we still capitulated.
Moyes actions/tactics over the last couple of weeks have left him exposed and he has dented the pride of the supporters and the club. He played the same team that turned out against Sunderland Away, which was the correct choice, but asked them to play in a different way, that was obvious from the first 5 minutes; I could see it why didn?t he?
We should have taken the lead and dictated the game to what we wanted; we didn?t ? we played safe against a shite team and that's what hurts us all. We deserved to lose; the best team on the day won, that?s why he should go as we should be better.
I?m making the 500-mile round-trip to the Fulham game as usual but, if I?m honest, I don?t know why I bother. One last point, he dropped Drenthe the day before to make a point, why? Why not put him on the bench and get to the final first and them discipline him? No he believed he can do what he wants, well I am afraid he is not Sir Alex.
Joe Royle had a similar decision to make before a derby match and he did the opposite to Moyes;, his record against them was excellent. Royle was an Evertonian, Moyes is just a pretender.
Tony @770, those wins were all at home.
Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, and Newcastle AWAY - all LOST. We only scored TWO goals in those matches. Why should Man Utd be any different? Moyes definitely has a problem setting his team up for away matches against the "big boys".
If we had to save our skins ever by having to win at one of those teams away, could we do it? Wigan under Martinez have!
Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool, and Newcastle AWAY - all LOST. We only scored TWO goals in those matches. Why should Man Utd be any different? Moyes definitely has a problem setting his team up for away matches against the "big boys".
If we had to save our skins ever by having to win at one of those teams away, could we do it? Wigan under Martinez have!
Phil
If you posted some of Your TW stuff on Kipper, your posts would not see the light of day.
If you were pro Moyes and told people to Fuck off, you would be banned fom this site.
You`re views are pretty much the same as the Editor of TW. so asked yourself why after telling somebody to fuck off recently, you are still posting ?
Thats not not faux outrage Btw, We all tell each other to politely go away from time to time, but rules is rules -or so you would think - Ask yourself why you were treated differently to say . .Ian Tunstead.
I believe Lyndon is as fair and balanced as his reports would suggest, I just think Michael undoes his -it has to be said - terrific work with his skewed double standards.
Black Kipper is acomin
If you posted some of Your TW stuff on Kipper, your posts would not see the light of day.
If you were pro Moyes and told people to Fuck off, you would be banned fom this site.
You`re views are pretty much the same as the Editor of TW. so asked yourself why after telling somebody to fuck off recently, you are still posting ?
Thats not not faux outrage Btw, We all tell each other to politely go away from time to time, but rules is rules -or so you would think - Ask yourself why you were treated differently to say . .Ian Tunstead.
I believe Lyndon is as fair and balanced as his reports would suggest, I just think Michael undoes his -it has to be said - terrific work with his skewed double standards.
Black Kipper is acomin
Ah, c'mon Dave
I wasn't the first and won't be the last
Did apologise, though, when I calmed down, and meant it
Since then, I've played by the rules and hope to live with the yellow `til the amnesty arrives
Just realised it's Friday p.m. and last Sat is STILL preying on my mind - same for you, I imagine - roll on Sunday and OT
I wasn't the first and won't be the last
Did apologise, though, when I calmed down, and meant it
Since then, I've played by the rules and hope to live with the yellow `til the amnesty arrives
Just realised it's Friday p.m. and last Sat is STILL preying on my mind - same for you, I imagine - roll on Sunday and OT
Phil, that's the bit 'laddo' has trouble with: admitting he's wrong and apologizing. It's not in his DNA.
Whereas thinking he runs this site apparently is...
And Phil, I think he rather insulted you there... Go on, do me a favour ? hit "Report Abuse" and then I can ban him!!!
Whereas thinking he runs this site apparently is...
And Phil, I think he rather insulted you there... Go on, do me a favour ? hit "Report Abuse" and then I can ban him!!!
It's Ok Michael, Dave seems very precious and I just don't get this "kipper" business
Anyway, as my old dad used to say "you can't be insulted by someone you don't respect"
I just wish I could be as sure of anything as Mr Wilson is of everything
Anyway, as my old dad used to say "you can't be insulted by someone you don't respect"
I just wish I could be as sure of anything as Mr Wilson is of everything
Dave Wilson
I think we have to remember that the site is organised, provided and run by a team of people (Michael, Lyndon etc) that give their time freely. Its THEIR site and THEY allow us to use it to have a debate. The site would vanish overnight if they decided to pull the plug. They set the site rules (fairly in my opinion) and they select what gets posted ? which is their right.
That's the reality ? maybe a simple thanks to them for their hard work would be nice?
I think we have to remember that the site is organised, provided and run by a team of people (Michael, Lyndon etc) that give their time freely. Its THEIR site and THEY allow us to use it to have a debate. The site would vanish overnight if they decided to pull the plug. They set the site rules (fairly in my opinion) and they select what gets posted ? which is their right.
That's the reality ? maybe a simple thanks to them for their hard work would be nice?
Thank you, Ray. That is indeed a more accurate picture.
I would just make a small correction: most people are free to post as and when they wish, without active selection of their posts by us. A small number are monitored, mainly because they have 'previous' of one form or another.
Regarding Dave's questionable assertion that Moyes acolytes have been banned or driven away, here's my take on that.
I'm sure there are some who have posted with Dave's 'alternative views' and decided over time, for whatever reason, not to continue. However, there are none who have been banned for that reason.
People who have posted abuse have been banned or have their posts gated. They may be Moyes lovers; they may be Moyes haters; makes no difference.
Think about it: if this policy claim had even a nanogram of validity, why would we allow ANY pro-Moyes posts to appear???
I would just make a small correction: most people are free to post as and when they wish, without active selection of their posts by us. A small number are monitored, mainly because they have 'previous' of one form or another.
Regarding Dave's questionable assertion that Moyes acolytes have been banned or driven away, here's my take on that.
I'm sure there are some who have posted with Dave's 'alternative views' and decided over time, for whatever reason, not to continue. However, there are none who have been banned for that reason.
People who have posted abuse have been banned or have their posts gated. They may be Moyes lovers; they may be Moyes haters; makes no difference.
Think about it: if this policy claim had even a nanogram of validity, why would we allow ANY pro-Moyes posts to appear???
If Michael etc were 'selective' in the posts that are put up, Richard Dodd would have vanished out of site.
And don't forget - Michael and Lyndon are perfectly entitled to be biased, controversial and downright perverse in their judgements, as long as they allow [non-abusive] comment from all sides. Which as far as I can gather, they do. There is no onus on them to be editorially impartial.
"With Moyes We're Bust" because "In Moyes We Trust" just doesn't work.
Michael ? thanks for the correction. In hindsight, I would not have used the word 'select' in relation to what is posted.
By the way, thanks for the site and all the hard work that goes into it ? not sucking up, just appreciative for the team providing a place for fans to post.
By the way, thanks for the site and all the hard work that goes into it ? not sucking up, just appreciative for the team providing a place for fans to post.
Michal Kenerick.
the words , Doth. protest and me thinks all spring to mind.
Why not demonstrate a modicom of respect for your membership ?
People like Brian Waring - one of the MOB - will have no idea of the sort of bans and censorship people like Doddy - despite being about as inoffensive as it gets ) would have endured from you. Why not tell him ?
Brian Denton.
you are right of course. Kenrick is entitled to sculpt TW, he is perfectly entitled to be biased an downright peverse in his judgement.,
What he isnt entitled to do is to lie to his membership - good Evertonians
A sizeable number of people aroung the world log into this site to be kept abreast of whats going on at Everton, but by silencing or shouting down the alternative view, Kenrick Paints a distorted picture painted for them.
Ask yourslef why Dan Briely gets banned, Yet Barry Rathbone - like Phil Belis - breaks the same rule, "bravely" telling somebody to fuck off from behind his PC and isnt even warned.
People like Phil and Barry are either happy to cower under the sheild of censorship provided by Kenrick, or are too gullible to know it exists.
Black Kipper
Lets see if Kenrick wants to defend these claims or hide them from you
the words , Doth. protest and me thinks all spring to mind.
Why not demonstrate a modicom of respect for your membership ?
People like Brian Waring - one of the MOB - will have no idea of the sort of bans and censorship people like Doddy - despite being about as inoffensive as it gets ) would have endured from you. Why not tell him ?
Brian Denton.
you are right of course. Kenrick is entitled to sculpt TW, he is perfectly entitled to be biased an downright peverse in his judgement.,
What he isnt entitled to do is to lie to his membership - good Evertonians
A sizeable number of people aroung the world log into this site to be kept abreast of whats going on at Everton, but by silencing or shouting down the alternative view, Kenrick Paints a distorted picture painted for them.
Ask yourslef why Dan Briely gets banned, Yet Barry Rathbone - like Phil Belis - breaks the same rule, "bravely" telling somebody to fuck off from behind his PC and isnt even warned.
People like Phil and Barry are either happy to cower under the sheild of censorship provided by Kenrick, or are too gullible to know it exists.
Black Kipper
Lets see if Kenrick wants to defend these claims or hide them from you
Dave,
I'd bravely had said the same thing to the face of anyone who tried to tell me giving Liverpool 3 points was Ok
I can't actually, now, recall what set me off, I was so angry - no excuse, I know, but that thread got many people heated and upset
And, I know you think yourself superior, but, please, really "people like..." ?
I'd bravely had said the same thing to the face of anyone who tried to tell me giving Liverpool 3 points was Ok
I can't actually, now, recall what set me off, I was so angry - no excuse, I know, but that thread got many people heated and upset
And, I know you think yourself superior, but, please, really "people like..." ?
Course you would have Phil... but what makes you think Ian Tunstead and Dan wouldnt have done the same?
Difference being you knew you`d get away with it... that kinda makes the abuse from the Mob cowardly in my book.
Difference being you knew you`d get away with it... that kinda makes the abuse from the Mob cowardly in my book.
Dave, I don't want this to turn into our default email service but what right have you to suggest I knew I'd "get away" with anything?
Ridiculous and totally unjustified assumption on your part but par for your particular course
I reacted in anger, regretted afterwards but, at the time gave no thought to consequences
I've no idea what Dan and Tunners have done. I have no knowledge of their thought processes - neither have you so get off your high horse; your beginning to spook me a bit with your stalking - Vendettas `R' Us?
I plead guilty to acting like a twat, your honour, but ask for previous good record to be taken into account - talk about judgemental, Jesus, you shag 1 sheep...
Ridiculous and totally unjustified assumption on your part but par for your particular course
I reacted in anger, regretted afterwards but, at the time gave no thought to consequences
I've no idea what Dan and Tunners have done. I have no knowledge of their thought processes - neither have you so get off your high horse; your beginning to spook me a bit with your stalking - Vendettas `R' Us?
I plead guilty to acting like a twat, your honour, but ask for previous good record to be taken into account - talk about judgemental, Jesus, you shag 1 sheep...
I wanted an example, could have used loads, but you were the one who was telling me how out of order I was at the time.
People in glasshouses and all that
People in glasshouses and all that
Dave, you're doing it again, aren't you? Made up shite about which you have zero knowledge.
Why don't you just do as 98.75% of the rest of the punters do (that's not a real number BTW), and just post about the football? I know that doesn't stop you from making shit up but at least it's shit that everyone can call you on.
You could tell us about how we sat back against Man Utd. I'm sure I saw every single Everton player back in our half...
Why don't you just do as 98.75% of the rest of the punters do (that's not a real number BTW), and just post about the football? I know that doesn't stop you from making shit up but at least it's shit that everyone can call you on.
You could tell us about how we sat back against Man Utd. I'm sure I saw every single Everton player back in our half...
Would this be a good time to remind you, that was all I did in the first place Michael ? I gave my take of the goal.
But YOU went into malicious name-calling mode, "Fucking Imbecille, Liar, Muppet, idiot"
Remember? it`s still up there
But YOU went into malicious name-calling mode, "Fucking Imbecille, Liar, Muppet, idiot"
Remember? it`s still up there
No Dave, there you go again, twisting and lying.
You tried to tell everyone that Everton were NOT sitting back. You made shite up to 'prove' your case... only you were lying ? and you were caught out in your lie.
Got agree with you on one point: it is all up there!
You tried to tell everyone that Everton were NOT sitting back. You made shite up to 'prove' your case... only you were lying ? and you were caught out in your lie.
Got agree with you on one point: it is all up there!
Yep and the goal can be viewed by anybody who wants to make up their own mind too.
If you didnt agree you could merely have said "your talking bollocks Dave" - A lot of others did
wasnt enough though was it ?
All views welcome eh Michael lad ? as long as they are shared by you.
If you didnt agree you could merely have said "your talking bollocks Dave" - A lot of others did
wasnt enough though was it ?
All views welcome eh Michael lad ? as long as they are shared by you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyhKGsaS7r4
the fateful backpass is at about 3:30 on this youtube video.
Where is the Everton team at the start of the play? Our back line is in our half but just barely. Everton are clearly playing in Liverpool'ss half at the time. Suarez has defenders chasing him from behind, with only Howard between him and goal.
the fateful backpass is at about 3:30 on this youtube video.
Where is the Everton team at the start of the play? Our back line is in our half but just barely. Everton are clearly playing in Liverpool'ss half at the time. Suarez has defenders chasing him from behind, with only Howard between him and goal.
Dave,
If you'd said "I don't think we were sitting back" I wouldn't be wasting my breath on your 'alternative viewpoint'. So it's not about that.
But you presented as fact, to support your 'view' beyond all shadow of doubt, with "every Everton player being in Liverpool's half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass?"
It turned out what you presented as fact was far from it: six Everton players were in their own half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass. The lie you created to support your contention falls apart...
I couldn't give a fart about your views one way or the other. My concern has always been you presenting your lies as facts. I've asked you previously not to do that using this website.
It's not that hard: if you're going to rely on examples like this to support your views, just try to make sure they are accurate. You should be thanking me: it's your credibility that's at risk here...
If you'd said "I don't think we were sitting back" I wouldn't be wasting my breath on your 'alternative viewpoint'. So it's not about that.
But you presented as fact, to support your 'view' beyond all shadow of doubt, with "every Everton player being in Liverpool's half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass?"
It turned out what you presented as fact was far from it: six Everton players were in their own half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass. The lie you created to support your contention falls apart...
I couldn't give a fart about your views one way or the other. My concern has always been you presenting your lies as facts. I've asked you previously not to do that using this website.
It's not that hard: if you're going to rely on examples like this to support your views, just try to make sure they are accurate. You should be thanking me: it's your credibility that's at risk here...
Listen; as author ( ha ) and 1 off self appointed judge jury grand poobah etc etc of this thread you are both deemed guilty of conduct un becoming ( of what I'll let you decide ) and bringing the noble art of nose thumbing and name calling into disrepute. I hearby * dons blue cap* sentence both of you to 10mins in the sinbin aka the naughty boys corner and that further more you will right out 100 times ' I think KITAP1 is shite' on the blackboard ala Bart Simpson. Oh and btw nanny told me to tell you she is v disappointed in both of you ( now see what you've done Ihope you're both proud of yourselves )
Michael.
Steven Sturm appears to be one of several who agree with my version of events. are the others "lying" too.
Heres a little challenge for you ; why not have a toffeeweb pole asking:
When Liverpool launched the ball forward to Carrol in the build up to their How many people agree with Michael Kenrick and actually saw SIX Everton defenders in our own half ?
You wont do it of course because you know you`ll be laughed off your own pages.
Once again you seem to be showing a lack of respect for your membership.
Some of the most kwnoledgeable Evertonians I know post on here.
Do you really feel they would need you to tell them if somebody was "lying" to them. Do you really think they would bother replying if they felt that was the case ?
You agenda and your dislike for the Everton manager -and anyone who doesnt share that dislike - is seriously clouding your judgement
Steven Sturm appears to be one of several who agree with my version of events. are the others "lying" too.
Heres a little challenge for you ; why not have a toffeeweb pole asking:
When Liverpool launched the ball forward to Carrol in the build up to their How many people agree with Michael Kenrick and actually saw SIX Everton defenders in our own half ?
You wont do it of course because you know you`ll be laughed off your own pages.
Once again you seem to be showing a lack of respect for your membership.
Some of the most kwnoledgeable Evertonians I know post on here.
Do you really feel they would need you to tell them if somebody was "lying" to them. Do you really think they would bother replying if they felt that was the case ?
You agenda and your dislike for the Everton manager -and anyone who doesnt share that dislike - is seriously clouding your judgement
What a ridiculous and unnecessary thread, exacerbated by several parties.
More in-fighting and bitching than a menopausal tea party.
Many should know better.
Disappointed.
More in-fighting and bitching than a menopausal tea party.
Many should know better.
Disappointed.
Is this debate still going on?
But Dave, why should the question start with
"When Liverpool launched the ball forward to Carroll....."
Becasue that isn't what you originally claimed is it. What you actually said was
"How do you explain every Everton player being in Liverpools half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass ?" (comment #427)
I really hope you're not trying to twist things again....
But Dave, why should the question start with
"When Liverpool launched the ball forward to Carroll....."
Becasue that isn't what you originally claimed is it. What you actually said was
"How do you explain every Everton player being in Liverpools half when Distin handed them a life line with his back pass ?" (comment #427)
I really hope you're not trying to twist things again....
Lee
As you very well know.
I came back (post 630) and said that having seen it again (from the armchair angle) I could see some players where in our half - just.
The Editors consistent claims that I wont accept this is blown away in that very post.
I stand by my statement that by arguing about a couple of feet you are beeing ultra pedantic.
James #043
You are right of course. I have allowed myself to be insulted by "liar" claims and this has gone too far.
no further though
As you very well know.
I came back (post 630) and said that having seen it again (from the armchair angle) I could see some players where in our half - just.
The Editors consistent claims that I wont accept this is blown away in that very post.
I stand by my statement that by arguing about a couple of feet you are beeing ultra pedantic.
James #043
You are right of course. I have allowed myself to be insulted by "liar" claims and this has gone too far.
no further though
Dave, you still haven't accepted that you created a faleshood in a failed effort to 'prove' a falsehood.
It's that simple. Look at the words you originally wrote ? not the latest twisted variant. Then watch the video. Then look at your original words again...
Then repeat ad infinitum until you finally geddit.
It's that simple. Look at the words you originally wrote ? not the latest twisted variant. Then watch the video. Then look at your original words again...
Then repeat ad infinitum until you finally geddit.
630 is Not a twisted varient Michael, just an acceptance that my original view was a little deceptive - its common at football grounds, - and the television cameras showed there was actually a couple of defenders in our half when the ball was played up - just , , only just.
Does that make me a liar ? Only in the eyes of people with issues.
I`ll leave it for others to decide who gave the most accurate view, me or you.
Iadmit I was angry with you to begin with, but that anger has subsided and given way to genuine concern, your accusations are not those of a man in control of himself. I`m a little worried.
I dont agree with you about anything . .but your a fellow blue.
Hang in there and know this ; I`m here for you Bro
Does that make me a liar ? Only in the eyes of people with issues.
I`ll leave it for others to decide who gave the most accurate view, me or you.
Iadmit I was angry with you to begin with, but that anger has subsided and given way to genuine concern, your accusations are not those of a man in control of himself. I`m a little worried.
I dont agree with you about anything . .but your a fellow blue.
Hang in there and know this ; I`m here for you Bro
I think it does make you a liar, and I'm concerned about that. It's not good to make balantantly false staatements on here. Yet you persist with this 'just' bollocks and refuse to accept that your gross falsehood was made to substantiate a view that was way out in left field.
To reiterate, as you still don't seem to understand this either, there is no problem with you holding a view that are odd, strange or ridiculous. But when you make a bald-faced lie about every Everton player being in the Liverpool half, and then compound it by bending over backwards to defend that falsehood, rather than accepting it like a man and holding your hand up... well, I'm sure you'd agree that, if it was any other of our eminent Evertonians posting such abject bollocks, I think you'd share that concern.
Think about this: was Tim Howard 'just' in the Everton half? How about Distin when he made the fatal backpass?
Queue more twisting and turning...
To reiterate, as you still don't seem to understand this either, there is no problem with you holding a view that are odd, strange or ridiculous. But when you make a bald-faced lie about every Everton player being in the Liverpool half, and then compound it by bending over backwards to defend that falsehood, rather than accepting it like a man and holding your hand up... well, I'm sure you'd agree that, if it was any other of our eminent Evertonians posting such abject bollocks, I think you'd share that concern.
Think about this: was Tim Howard 'just' in the Everton half? How about Distin when he made the fatal backpass?
Queue more twisting and turning...
Oh dear
Is Tim Howard now being considered as one of the players sitting back ?
"That proves My wacko theory that we were sitting back and we had SIX defenders in our half . .even our goalie was still in his penalty area ! "
Give it up lad, you are dying on your arse here.
You decieve your members every day. By denying you have an agenda, or that you sculpt this site and by doing that, you leave good Evertonians open to ridicule from other sections of Evertonia.
Being accused of lying by you, is like being accused of being light fingered by Antony Worral Thompson.
Is Tim Howard now being considered as one of the players sitting back ?
"That proves My wacko theory that we were sitting back and we had SIX defenders in our half . .even our goalie was still in his penalty area ! "
Give it up lad, you are dying on your arse here.
You decieve your members every day. By denying you have an agenda, or that you sculpt this site and by doing that, you leave good Evertonians open to ridicule from other sections of Evertonia.
Being accused of lying by you, is like being accused of being light fingered by Antony Worral Thompson.
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867 Posted 15/04/2012 at 17:40:54
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