Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
Seventh Heaven
37 Comments: It's definitely been a season of "what ifs"!
? What if we would have started the season well?
? What if Distin would have booted the ball into the stands?
? What if Jelavic and Gibson would have been with us since the start of the season?
However, leaving those questions for others to answer, we have been the 7th best team in the league and deserve nothing better and deserve nothing worse!
We have:
♦ the 7th most amount of wins in the league
♦ the 7th least amount of losses
♦ the 7th most goals scored
♦ the 4th (but along with 3 other teams... so 4 + 3 = 7) least goals conceded
♦ the 7th most wins at home
♦ the 7th best GD at home and away
We will finish 7th now, Fulham have Spurs last game and LFC have Chelsea plus our better GD will help us even if we struggle to pick up points.
To be 7th behind 6 teams who have all spent a lot more money than EFC is not a bad effort and to finish above Liverpool and Fulham who have spent considerably more is not bad either. I try to stay away from the "What ifs" so I for one am looking forward to a good season next year and hopefully we can fight with the big spenders as we have proved we can in the second half of the season.
Andrew Fair, Posted 02/05/2012 at 10:18:20
Comments
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I am geniunely excited about next season already, so long as Pienaar is tied up and Jelavic stays fit. With the addition of some key reinforcements, there is no reason why we can't start the season like we did when Johnson and Lescott arrived (the only positive one I can remember in the Moyes era!). But, these are big "ifs" and if the club can't come up with a paltry 3 or 4mil for Pienaar, we may as well throw in the towel now.
Lets also remember that the Premier League is a marathon, not a sprint. There is not a single team in the PL who hasn't had a bad patch, even United who are now struggling (unusually at this time of the year) and it would've happened to Everton even if we started the year on a flyer. The difference is that If only Everton could've won a couple of our early home games we would be competing for 4th spot by now.
Lets also remember that the Premier League is a marathon, not a sprint. There is not a single team in the PL who hasn't had a bad patch, even United who are now struggling (unusually at this time of the year) and it would've happened to Everton even if we started the year on a flyer. The difference is that If only Everton could've won a couple of our early home games we would be competing for 4th spot by now.
Does everyone on here really think that finishing 7th, just above a shite Liverpool means anything given that they have beaten us 3 times and have one "mickey mouse" cup and probably, with their spawny luck, an FA cup in the cupboard?
This time next season no-one but us will neither remember nor care who finished 6th,7th or 8th etc
I will not crow about finishing just above shite until we can beat shite!
My season ended at Wembley - roll on next season!
This time next season no-one but us will neither remember nor care who finished 6th,7th or 8th etc
I will not crow about finishing just above shite until we can beat shite!
My season ended at Wembley - roll on next season!
Mark (165)
Of course it matters!
If only for my two young sons who are taunted (and outnumbered 8 to 1) by reds at their primary School.
I've told them to say...
"Just look at the league table and see which team is best?"
Providing LFC don't win the FA cup then finishing above them gives us bragging rights in the city (cos' we all know they don't value the "Mickey Mouse cup??)
Of course it matters!
If only for my two young sons who are taunted (and outnumbered 8 to 1) by reds at their primary School.
I've told them to say...
"Just look at the league table and see which team is best?"
Providing LFC don't win the FA cup then finishing above them gives us bragging rights in the city (cos' we all know they don't value the "Mickey Mouse cup??)
Stephen,
If I was a gobshite, and thank the Lord I'm not, I'd just point out the 3 derby wins and leave the MM cup out of it. The same as we would if it was the other way around! By "bragging" that we finished 7th to their 8th we are just highlighting our lack of ambition.
Success should be measured by:
1. The league title.
2. A Champions League spot
3. The FA Cup
Anything else doesn't matter.
We desperately need to start beating them on a regular, rather than an exceptional, basis. If they win the FA Cup then they won't give a monkey's where we finish.
But good advice to the kids as, face to face with a red, that would be my argument too!
If I was a gobshite, and thank the Lord I'm not, I'd just point out the 3 derby wins and leave the MM cup out of it. The same as we would if it was the other way around! By "bragging" that we finished 7th to their 8th we are just highlighting our lack of ambition.
Success should be measured by:
1. The league title.
2. A Champions League spot
3. The FA Cup
Anything else doesn't matter.
We desperately need to start beating them on a regular, rather than an exceptional, basis. If they win the FA Cup then they won't give a monkey's where we finish.
But good advice to the kids as, face to face with a red, that would be my argument too!
Mark #199 I'm sure a lot of old hands will agree with you, but in this day and age the money floating round means that consistent qualification for the CL is the key.
Getting to the final alone banks Chelsea £50m in TV and sponsor revenue. If they lift it they get £2.5m in prize money.
Last season Man U banked around $66m from the Premier League, and £109m from being runners up in the CL.
Without looking it up I think that getting to the final of the Europa was worth around £5m, and the FA Cup around £3m, the Carling Cup around £1.5m.
All of that includes prize money and broadcast revenue, but not matchday money. That's why top 4 is the holy grail, and the grave of many a club and chairman reaching beyond their means.
Liverpool having spent another fortune are back in Europe, but it's the Europa League. They will take it seriously because of their sponsors, but won't cry if they are dumped out by Slovan Insignificant in the early rounds.
It's a silly example but I'll use it anyway. If you had the choice of Premier League winners / out of the CL at the quarters, or CL runners up and 4th in the Premier League, I and a lot of fans would go for the former. Any chairman / CEO of a Premier club would love the latter.
Whilst I'm more concerned about Everton and their gradual slide to a stark reality for our owners, our loveable neighbours cannot afford to not be in the CL. The bitching by their MD about the equal sharing of the overseas EPL revenue is testament to this. They need every penny, or their future will be as bleak - their owners will not allow one franchise to bring down the whole chain.
Getting to the final alone banks Chelsea £50m in TV and sponsor revenue. If they lift it they get £2.5m in prize money.
Last season Man U banked around $66m from the Premier League, and £109m from being runners up in the CL.
Without looking it up I think that getting to the final of the Europa was worth around £5m, and the FA Cup around £3m, the Carling Cup around £1.5m.
All of that includes prize money and broadcast revenue, but not matchday money. That's why top 4 is the holy grail, and the grave of many a club and chairman reaching beyond their means.
Liverpool having spent another fortune are back in Europe, but it's the Europa League. They will take it seriously because of their sponsors, but won't cry if they are dumped out by Slovan Insignificant in the early rounds.
It's a silly example but I'll use it anyway. If you had the choice of Premier League winners / out of the CL at the quarters, or CL runners up and 4th in the Premier League, I and a lot of fans would go for the former. Any chairman / CEO of a Premier club would love the latter.
Whilst I'm more concerned about Everton and their gradual slide to a stark reality for our owners, our loveable neighbours cannot afford to not be in the CL. The bitching by their MD about the equal sharing of the overseas EPL revenue is testament to this. They need every penny, or their future will be as bleak - their owners will not allow one franchise to bring down the whole chain.
Maybe I am on my own in thinking this but I would love us to win the "Mickey Mouse Cup" year after year! We won't be winning a title anytime soon, nor a European Cup, so that leaves us with 3 possible trophy chances: the Uefa Cup, FA Cup and League Cup.
The Uefa Cup is the hardest of those and the League Cup the easiest but all are silverware and, as we as a club have no silverware since 1995, I would really like it if we actually won one.
If only our board would treat the cups with as much respect then fans may feel happier about the state of things.
The Uefa Cup is the hardest of those and the League Cup the easiest but all are silverware and, as we as a club have no silverware since 1995, I would really like it if we actually won one.
If only our board would treat the cups with as much respect then fans may feel happier about the state of things.
It would be nice to win a trophy again, Paul. But our great manager simply doesn't seem capable of it. Oh, and I don't think there is a Uefa Cup anymore. Still hard to win, whatever it's called now...
Of course it is the Europa League thingy but I refuse to call it such ? just as I still refer to the Champions League as the European Cup!
Paul, I think you hit a nail on the head!
Having supported Everton for nearly 60 years, I still find it hard to come to terms with the fact that we are NO LONGER one of the big five clubs in the league. In the 60s, 70s and 80s we won things and bought players ? often breaking transfer records etc. However, the reality now is that we are in the second "tier" of the Premier League whilest often at the head of it - and for that, Mr Moyes deserves at least SOME credit.
But as you point out there is little or no chance of winning the title much less the Champions Cup. Thus it would be REAL progress if we were to win one or more of the other trophies while maintaining our consistency in league finishes and perhaps improving on them by a place or two. This should NOT be beyond the resources currently available and I do feel that this failure to land one of the so called "lesser" trophies lies at the heart of much current frustration amongst Evertonians and leads to this craving for millionaire benefactors to enable us to "do a City".
It does not seem that it will happen in the near future, even if it were the best course of action for the club to take; perhaps we need another more creative model? So, like you I think that should be a very real and realistic target demanded of the manager and players by the board and the whole support base. Then perhaps we could leave hopes and expectations of the title/Champions League etc to another day in the longer term future possibilities of the club.
If we do not cement this particular stage of the club's evolution with concrete achievement then I do fear that the future may well turn out to be even more than "disappointing". After all, what is going to really encourage youngsters to "commit" to Everton other than their family/friendship/locality tradition?
Knowing Everton, however, whatever the planning we would draw Utd away in the Carling cup, Chelsea or Arsenal away in the FA Cup and play both games without Jelavic, Fellaini, Baines and Howard who would be out injured or suspended! But you are right ? we do need some tangible trophy to parade.
Having supported Everton for nearly 60 years, I still find it hard to come to terms with the fact that we are NO LONGER one of the big five clubs in the league. In the 60s, 70s and 80s we won things and bought players ? often breaking transfer records etc. However, the reality now is that we are in the second "tier" of the Premier League whilest often at the head of it - and for that, Mr Moyes deserves at least SOME credit.
But as you point out there is little or no chance of winning the title much less the Champions Cup. Thus it would be REAL progress if we were to win one or more of the other trophies while maintaining our consistency in league finishes and perhaps improving on them by a place or two. This should NOT be beyond the resources currently available and I do feel that this failure to land one of the so called "lesser" trophies lies at the heart of much current frustration amongst Evertonians and leads to this craving for millionaire benefactors to enable us to "do a City".
It does not seem that it will happen in the near future, even if it were the best course of action for the club to take; perhaps we need another more creative model? So, like you I think that should be a very real and realistic target demanded of the manager and players by the board and the whole support base. Then perhaps we could leave hopes and expectations of the title/Champions League etc to another day in the longer term future possibilities of the club.
If we do not cement this particular stage of the club's evolution with concrete achievement then I do fear that the future may well turn out to be even more than "disappointing". After all, what is going to really encourage youngsters to "commit" to Everton other than their family/friendship/locality tradition?
Knowing Everton, however, whatever the planning we would draw Utd away in the Carling cup, Chelsea or Arsenal away in the FA Cup and play both games without Jelavic, Fellaini, Baines and Howard who would be out injured or suspended! But you are right ? we do need some tangible trophy to parade.
We will do well to get seventh, if we do it's a fair achievement seeing how slow moyes was putting things right. Games against Liverpool were a disgrace. As far as I am concerned the league is everything to me, let's finish with pride with two wins and cheer on Chelsea at wembley and hope for a torres hat-trick!
Pundits rave about 'brilliant' Moyes and what he has achieved. I take the view that for someone with 10 years as one of the highest paid managers in world football his 'best of the rest' tag is pathetic.
We surely should expect some kind of trophy to show for his years in charge.
If he was so good at developing youth why have we not got one or two of our own kids holding down regular first team spots.
If he is such a tactical genius why have we suffered most part of ten years of mind numbing uninspiring garbage.
If he is such a great motivator why can't he motivate his players to beat the worst RS side in living memory.
His fans raise the issue of money but there must be enormous value on ten years of world football's most secure job.
We surely should expect some kind of trophy to show for his years in charge.
If he was so good at developing youth why have we not got one or two of our own kids holding down regular first team spots.
If he is such a tactical genius why have we suffered most part of ten years of mind numbing uninspiring garbage.
If he is such a great motivator why can't he motivate his players to beat the worst RS side in living memory.
His fans raise the issue of money but there must be enormous value on ten years of world football's most secure job.
7th is a fantastic achievement according to Moyes. He is probably right but for me the season has been a let down. The first half of it was really bad and as bad as it's probably ever been under Moyes.
The Liverpool surrenders will not make it a season to remember. In the games that counted most to us this season, we were not good enough.
The Liverpool surrenders will not make it a season to remember. In the games that counted most to us this season, we were not good enough.
Some unfair rantings there Dick. All a bit blah now.
Okay, Paul (#245)... Inter-Cities Fairs Cup it is then!
Seventh is a decent return particularly as we now have six super rich clubs rather than the four of a few years ago.
Dick (293) -
'best of the rest' tag is pathetic" Dead On!
Kenright OUT!
"If he was so good at developing youth why have we not got one or two of our own kids holding down regular first team spots"
Was shocked to discover that Moyes actually has to go scout opposing teams or potential talent personally. You think SAF has to do that? Or that SAF's scouting budget is the same as our Club? I wonder why?
Kenright OUT!
"If he is such a tactical genius why have we suffered most part of ten years of mind numbing uninspiring garbage".
In my 3 years in, I've seen some wonderful, creative attacking sides, most especially now. We had the best of a team yesterday every club hates playing (for good reason). Just didn't get the ball in the net. It happens.
"His fans raise the issue of money but there must be enormous value on ten years of world football's most secure job".
You know what you meant here. I don't, so I'll leave it be. Except the money part. That's not on the manager.
Kenright OUT!
We will be best of the rest until ownership puts up some of the millions they have. They do have the cash to splash for the few last pieces we need to take on and whip every team over 38 games. If the continue to refuse to? Same as before.
Kenright OUT!
'best of the rest' tag is pathetic" Dead On!
Kenright OUT!
"If he was so good at developing youth why have we not got one or two of our own kids holding down regular first team spots"
Was shocked to discover that Moyes actually has to go scout opposing teams or potential talent personally. You think SAF has to do that? Or that SAF's scouting budget is the same as our Club? I wonder why?
Kenright OUT!
"If he is such a tactical genius why have we suffered most part of ten years of mind numbing uninspiring garbage".
In my 3 years in, I've seen some wonderful, creative attacking sides, most especially now. We had the best of a team yesterday every club hates playing (for good reason). Just didn't get the ball in the net. It happens.
"His fans raise the issue of money but there must be enormous value on ten years of world football's most secure job".
You know what you meant here. I don't, so I'll leave it be. Except the money part. That's not on the manager.
Kenright OUT!
We will be best of the rest until ownership puts up some of the millions they have. They do have the cash to splash for the few last pieces we need to take on and whip every team over 38 games. If the continue to refuse to? Same as before.
Kenright OUT!
People slag of the 'Mickey Mouse cup' but I tell you now, if we won that trophy I'd have ran back to St Helens from Wembley in nothing but an Everton flag!
We act like it means nothing because we've not won it but they have, yet I know if it was the other way round, this would be classed as our best season since 95.
For me, any form of silverware would beat 4th place. But I'm just a fan and a small tin pot won't pay Bill's erm, bills.
We act like it means nothing because we've not won it but they have, yet I know if it was the other way round, this would be classed as our best season since 95.
For me, any form of silverware would beat 4th place. But I'm just a fan and a small tin pot won't pay Bill's erm, bills.
Please let us retain our best players and go into next season with confidence.
Its likely that we'll be in the second tier again but if we retain our best players and add Piennar and another forward, we can have a serious punt at breaking the glass ceiling.
Its likely that we'll be in the second tier again but if we retain our best players and add Piennar and another forward, we can have a serious punt at breaking the glass ceiling.
John - Agree. If we have to stand pat, let's go.
Any trophy has to be better than none! Look at those across the park ? terrible league position yet the fans are still fairly happy cos they have won one trophy and may yet get another.
I would be buzzing if we could just win one! In fact, I am seriously hoping we win the Liverpool Senior Cup so I can crow about that... lol.
I would be buzzing if we could just win one! In fact, I am seriously hoping we win the Liverpool Senior Cup so I can crow about that... lol.
Matt #204,
I'm 23!*
My point is not that the MM cup is worthless nor that a higher league position is not something worth aiming for.
I'm just saying that its a very fragile argument to claim superiority over the shite just cos we finish 7th and they 8th when they also have at least one cup in their cabinet.
I would take 8th plus the League cup any day and the FA cup would clinch it anytime!
*actually I'm 53 but that young Mr Kendrick told me not to mention it!
DOH!!!
I'm 23!*
My point is not that the MM cup is worthless nor that a higher league position is not something worth aiming for.
I'm just saying that its a very fragile argument to claim superiority over the shite just cos we finish 7th and they 8th when they also have at least one cup in their cabinet.
I would take 8th plus the League cup any day and the FA cup would clinch it anytime!
*actually I'm 53 but that young Mr Kendrick told me not to mention it!
DOH!!!
Are you saying,Michael,that if we beat BOOTLE in the Liverpool Senior Cup tonight,Moysey wont get the credit.....and the glory?
More mystic significance - Jelavic's penalty against Fulham at Goodison was his seventh goal in the Premiership, scored in the seventh minute. He was, of course, wearing the No. 7 shirt, and the final result kept us in seventh place in the league. Oh, and the Fulham player who handled the ball for the pen...cant remember his name....was wearing number....you've guessed it. Check your watches every 7 minutes on Sunday, and lets hope Cisse gets tired after 7 minutes for our last game and has to go off.
"We surely should expect some kind of trophy to show for his years in charge."
Why? I always ask this question but rarely get any kind of answer.
When does longevity mean success? You could be the manager of an average/poor side for decades and not win anything, so why should we expect a trophy just because he has been with us for ages?
Why? I always ask this question but rarely get any kind of answer.
When does longevity mean success? You could be the manager of an average/poor side for decades and not win anything, so why should we expect a trophy just because he has been with us for ages?
How quaint: do we really have fans who still think the manager is responsible for developing youth.
Moyes's critics will continuously scream about the fact that seemingly everyone else in the game rates him very highly... Why do they care? THEY constantly claim he`s a dour one-trick pony.
If it's not about the quality of player available. Maybe one of the Mob can offer a semi reasonable explanation as to why the results change dramatically, but according to them, the manager never does? . . .
Moyes's critics will continuously scream about the fact that seemingly everyone else in the game rates him very highly... Why do they care? THEY constantly claim he`s a dour one-trick pony.
If it's not about the quality of player available. Maybe one of the Mob can offer a semi reasonable explanation as to why the results change dramatically, but according to them, the manager never does? . . .
"there is no reason why we can't start the season like we did when Johnson and Lescott "
...Yes there is. Johnson and Lescott were two new additions to a stable squad. We wont have any new additions and will be required to sell big- again!
...Yes there is. Johnson and Lescott were two new additions to a stable squad. We wont have any new additions and will be required to sell big- again!
As Everton fans, we cannot afford to be optimistic. An injury to Jelavic, we're back to square one. Gibson and Pienaar won't matter when Anichebe is the one leading the forward line.
Dave, # 364, Once we get near to Moyes target of 40 pts then and only then will Moyes go for attractive open and dare I say, attacking football.
Dick if that is true then it would show that Moyes genuinlely worries about relegation before a ball is evenkicked.
Paul # 572, That is precisely the point I have tried to make for years.
The man has Loser engraved in stone.
If you want to watch us play attractive football it best to buy a half season ticket in January.
The man has Loser engraved in stone.
If you want to watch us play attractive football it best to buy a half season ticket in January.
Mr Wilson
"do we really have fans who still think the manager is responsible for developing youth"
Some questions, in response to your statement...
If not he who controls everything at the playing level for Everton Football Club, who could it possibly be, then? Is the job available? What's the salary? Owt over 45 grand p..a., quaint or otherwise, I'm your man sweetie.
"do we really have fans who still think the manager is responsible for developing youth"
Some questions, in response to your statement...
If not he who controls everything at the playing level for Everton Football Club, who could it possibly be, then? Is the job available? What's the salary? Owt over 45 grand p..a., quaint or otherwise, I'm your man sweetie.
I'l do it for 44K AND wash my own kit.
Dave 384 still partially defending the partially indefensable...The reason, he goes in his KITAP1 shell too often
Dave 384 still partially defending the partially indefensable...The reason, he goes in his KITAP1 shell too often
Derek
Not partially defending anything. Just stating for me what is blindingly obvious.
Play a certain type of game and fail to score and the players become uptight, confidence will drop and the football will appear/become purposeless. attacking with a blunt instrument is always a messy business.
But if your SCORING . .confidence flows, the players relax and worra ya know, the football suddenly takes on a purpose and becomes far more appealing to watch.
A team playing with Yelavic, Baines n Pienaar, Gibson and Fellaini (advanced) will be better to watch than a team playing with Straq/Vic/Vellios, Baines, Coleman, Cahill (advanced) all day long.
Same football, same manager, same philosophy . .totaly different result.
Phil
Not completely in touch with youth development (don't have the time these days) but I think its Neil Dewsnip and Alan Iivine.
Next time you are giving Fergie/Moyes credit for the development of Wayne Rooney, you may want to check over your shoulder to make sure Mr Harvey isn't in the room.
Not partially defending anything. Just stating for me what is blindingly obvious.
Play a certain type of game and fail to score and the players become uptight, confidence will drop and the football will appear/become purposeless. attacking with a blunt instrument is always a messy business.
But if your SCORING . .confidence flows, the players relax and worra ya know, the football suddenly takes on a purpose and becomes far more appealing to watch.
A team playing with Yelavic, Baines n Pienaar, Gibson and Fellaini (advanced) will be better to watch than a team playing with Straq/Vic/Vellios, Baines, Coleman, Cahill (advanced) all day long.
Same football, same manager, same philosophy . .totaly different result.
Phil
Not completely in touch with youth development (don't have the time these days) but I think its Neil Dewsnip and Alan Iivine.
Next time you are giving Fergie/Moyes credit for the development of Wayne Rooney, you may want to check over your shoulder to make sure Mr Harvey isn't in the room.
Actually Phil, According to the OS, theres a whole team of these youth coaches including Kevin Sheedy and Kevin O'Brien.
I would assume every Prem team has some sort of similar set up for developing youth.
I would assume every Prem team has some sort of similar set up for developing youth.
This season has been a disaster, full stop. Up until January, the football at Goodison Park was some of the worst I've witnessed of 42 years attending regularly... FFS, we even had gobshites like Robbie Savage saying things like "Everton might not be the worst team in the league but they're certainly the worst to watch."
Yes, granted there's been a great turnaround because of the January transfer business... but, for me, this season ranks as one of the worst I've ever seen ? and all because of March 13th and the Wembley surrenders. I personally couldn't give a flying fuck if we finish above THEM!
I'd die to be in their shoes now: one cup in the cabinet and another one on the way after a another penalty shoot-out win... because, let's face it, that's what's going to happen. Can anyone reccomend a really strong sleeping pill because I want to go to bed tomorrow at 5 and not wake up until Monday.
Yes, granted there's been a great turnaround because of the January transfer business... but, for me, this season ranks as one of the worst I've ever seen ? and all because of March 13th and the Wembley surrenders. I personally couldn't give a flying fuck if we finish above THEM!
I'd die to be in their shoes now: one cup in the cabinet and another one on the way after a another penalty shoot-out win... because, let's face it, that's what's going to happen. Can anyone reccomend a really strong sleeping pill because I want to go to bed tomorrow at 5 and not wake up until Monday.
I have to agree with Andy Meighan (#693)... Thank god the last part didn't happen because a lot of Evertonians would have had to take a few days off if they had won the double!
But it's no good building up any hopes about finishing above Liverpool either! I don't see that as success anyway unless we are in 4th place and above them...
A pittance of a season, so many ups and downs, plus we lost 3 times to the Reds... Now, going into the last game we might even finish 9th... and Moyes will be happy because that was his goal at the beginning of the season: 40 points then to finish in the top 10.
Not good enough, Everton; remember ? Nil Satis Nisi Optimum....
But it's no good building up any hopes about finishing above Liverpool either! I don't see that as success anyway unless we are in 4th place and above them...
A pittance of a season, so many ups and downs, plus we lost 3 times to the Reds... Now, going into the last game we might even finish 9th... and Moyes will be happy because that was his goal at the beginning of the season: 40 points then to finish in the top 10.
Not good enough, Everton; remember ? Nil Satis Nisi Optimum....
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149 Posted 02/05/2012 at 14:33:59
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My problem hasnt been with out league position as such. Its been about the start of the season (again), the often dull football played despite results being better playing more exciting stuff, the 3 derbies, "knife to a gunfight" and our manager seeming to sulk for 5 months.
We need a positive summer which hopefully includes more players coming in than going out, but if we dont then Moyes either has to sack it off or get on with it without the sulking. He says he will have a meeting with Kenwright at the end of the season, hopefully we will see some good come out of that, but I reckon he already knows what will get said.