Season 2011-12
The Mail Bag
The West Ham problem
50 Comments: I spoke to a friend today who is a West Ham season ticket holder. As he lives in Ireland, the trips to London cost him an amount that he can barely afford. He was appalled at the appointment of Allardyce and said today that he'd take good football in the Championship rather than a Premier League struggle with the shite that big Sam serves up.
At Everton, we don't have the perennial West Ham dilemma. We play occasional good football, quite a bit of shite but (and he's done it again) we get survival every year.
Some of the supporters of David Moyes on this site seem to equate good football with Blackpool. They see Swansea as relegation ready to happen. The choice appears to be dirge and safety or football and a flirtation with relegation.
I believe that next season is our chance to solve the West Ham problem. We have shown that Jelavic gives us the option to attack. Moyes has shown that he is capable of sending out an aggressive attacking line up as at Old Trafford. He must not start the season by keeping it tight and nicking a goal.
We are better than Blackpool and we are better than Swansea. At Christmas I thought that I was wrong about Moyes and that the squad were not good enough. Obviously the squad has been strengthened but the players under performing before Christmas have come good. The spring has suggested that our players are good enough. It is my view that the coach isn't. Suspend any contract negotiations and see where we are in November.
Good football and relegation... or shite and safety? Everton do not need to make that choice.
Andy Crooks, Posted 07/05/2012 at 19:03:09
Comments
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
Survival and safety?
You make it sound like we've struggled in the league every year.
You make it sound like we've struggled in the league every year.
I am not a usual suspect but have strong opinions about Moyes and his negativity. Ok he keeps us up but no-one really cares if we finish 7th or 10th or what ? there is no glory in that. Nothing has changed over 10 years so nothing ever will.
This season, he has bottled it again, culminating in the debacle at Wembley that ruined any possibility of looking back on the season with any enjoyment. One draw against United at Old Trafford is hardly enough. And true to form, he has reverted back to type with poor displays at Stoke and Wolves.
Who knows whether this squad is good enough because we play such dross negative football. Let's get Moyes out and try to entertain again and who knows what we may achieve.
This season, he has bottled it again, culminating in the debacle at Wembley that ruined any possibility of looking back on the season with any enjoyment. One draw against United at Old Trafford is hardly enough. And true to form, he has reverted back to type with poor displays at Stoke and Wolves.
Who knows whether this squad is good enough because we play such dross negative football. Let's get Moyes out and try to entertain again and who knows what we may achieve.
Never mind WHU, now Blackburn have been relegated, which of their players will we be able to target? (I know we have no monet, but we can still have a hypothetical discussion, can't we?)
If only we did have some "Monet".
No more money troubles.
No more money troubles.
Dean, there aren't many players I would want from Rovers. Hoilett will go elsewhere so that leaves Grant Hanley who looks a good young player,
Moyes hasnt 'survived again'... that's never been an issue! We're seventh. Not brilliant but a decent return.
Moyes couldn't play football with the squad we had for the first half of the season; the January sales saved our season from a weekly dirge. If we keep our best players, there's no reason why we cant play good football again and keep things tight too.
Moyes couldn't play football with the squad we had for the first half of the season; the January sales saved our season from a weekly dirge. If we keep our best players, there's no reason why we cant play good football again and keep things tight too.
It's not a particular West Ham problem; before Big Sam, they were renowned for playing good football... before they went down (let me have the one joke please!). It was really just a way of disguising another attack at Moyes's perceived negative game plan.
First off, we don't just get survival each year; top 8 finishes are not survival, Wigan is survival each year (negative Martinez, hey, with his minimum points required approach). I think the comparisons with the likes of Swansea, Norwich and Blackpool is not a direct one. I can buy that they've shown that you can play good football with any standard of player; what they have not shown is that you can get the results we want by plaing that type of football.
To play that sort of football and win enough to be up at the top of the league requires top top players. Moyes maybe has two of these: Jelavic and Pienaar. He could try and get Hibbert, Gibson, Fellaini, Jagielka and Cahill playing tiki-taka football like Lambert has done with his players but the result would probably be the same ? some big wins, lots of bad losses, and a poor league finish.
I don't blame Moyes for making the best out of what he's got, he gives us a solid base with a great defence and then lets Jelavic, Pienaar and Baines open teams up. It doesn't always work hence why we are where we are in the league. With the players we have, though, if he took the Lambert/Rodgers approach, we'd be far more likely to end up where they are in the table rather than were Arsenal or Spurs are.
First off, we don't just get survival each year; top 8 finishes are not survival, Wigan is survival each year (negative Martinez, hey, with his minimum points required approach). I think the comparisons with the likes of Swansea, Norwich and Blackpool is not a direct one. I can buy that they've shown that you can play good football with any standard of player; what they have not shown is that you can get the results we want by plaing that type of football.
To play that sort of football and win enough to be up at the top of the league requires top top players. Moyes maybe has two of these: Jelavic and Pienaar. He could try and get Hibbert, Gibson, Fellaini, Jagielka and Cahill playing tiki-taka football like Lambert has done with his players but the result would probably be the same ? some big wins, lots of bad losses, and a poor league finish.
I don't blame Moyes for making the best out of what he's got, he gives us a solid base with a great defence and then lets Jelavic, Pienaar and Baines open teams up. It doesn't always work hence why we are where we are in the league. With the players we have, though, if he took the Lambert/Rodgers approach, we'd be far more likely to end up where they are in the table rather than were Arsenal or Spurs are.
While we didn't have the same standard of player before January, there really was no excuse for the shite we were served up. No-one was expecting us to play like Barcelona but we didn't even try and play football.
Probably a bit old now and part of the problem, but I always thought Gamst would be a good inclusion, especially if we can't sign Pienaar.
Good god, this is so repetitive. Look at ToffeeWeb at the end of last season and you'll see the exact same things being said.
Every season we start off shite and finish well then everyone says "if we can just keep the same players, maybe strengthen a little there's no reason we can't start strongly!" But we never do.
Call me a negative, moaning idiot if you want but I'd be willing to put money on us selling a player midway through August and blaming that on yet another woeful start. If we're going to sell to buy (which lets face it, is the only way we can afford to strengthen) then I hope that for once Moyes gets it over and done with as soon as possible.
There's nothing wrong with selling to buy, there's everything wrong with what we usually do which is sell on deadline day and never see the money again.
Sorry, bit of a rant there. Yes, we can play attractive football with the players we have now. The challenge is going to be keeping the squad together.
Every season we start off shite and finish well then everyone says "if we can just keep the same players, maybe strengthen a little there's no reason we can't start strongly!" But we never do.
Call me a negative, moaning idiot if you want but I'd be willing to put money on us selling a player midway through August and blaming that on yet another woeful start. If we're going to sell to buy (which lets face it, is the only way we can afford to strengthen) then I hope that for once Moyes gets it over and done with as soon as possible.
There's nothing wrong with selling to buy, there's everything wrong with what we usually do which is sell on deadline day and never see the money again.
Sorry, bit of a rant there. Yes, we can play attractive football with the players we have now. The challenge is going to be keeping the squad together.
Mr Mackie, to me, repetitive is part of Moyes and the fabric of this club by now.
The only time we have finished among the 4th best was in 04-05, and that is now 7 years ago.
I think Everton fans are really pleased with us finishing 7th and 8th. I find it is worse than being in a relegation battle, there is no attacking intent from Moyes, in fact the only game he has done anything better then one up front was the Man United game.
The old Everton I know we at least varied in tactics and went out to win by many goals, we no longer do. First half of the season, Moyes trips over himself for all to see. It happens every year.
I am so sick of it, and by now 7 years after we finished 4th it is strange that Moyes is still here and that people even bother during these tragic first half of the season shows.
Everton fans need to demand more, there needs to be a some unrest about David Moyes and the fact that he gets away with pissing away half a season each year.
It has now become the norm, among the fans, among the players and the media. That is a sign that makes us look like a underdog and that should piss people off.
Instead, the few that are sick and tired of it they stay away from Goodison and suffer in silence.
The need for a fresh-thinking, attack-minded manager is now desperate. The falling attendances from about 39-40,000 to 29,000 says this with a roar.
If the Blue Union really cares then they should put out an ultimatum, start playing football from august or resign, David Moyes!
There simply has to be a line drawn after 7 years of mid-table life.
The only time we have finished among the 4th best was in 04-05, and that is now 7 years ago.
I think Everton fans are really pleased with us finishing 7th and 8th. I find it is worse than being in a relegation battle, there is no attacking intent from Moyes, in fact the only game he has done anything better then one up front was the Man United game.
The old Everton I know we at least varied in tactics and went out to win by many goals, we no longer do. First half of the season, Moyes trips over himself for all to see. It happens every year.
I am so sick of it, and by now 7 years after we finished 4th it is strange that Moyes is still here and that people even bother during these tragic first half of the season shows.
Everton fans need to demand more, there needs to be a some unrest about David Moyes and the fact that he gets away with pissing away half a season each year.
It has now become the norm, among the fans, among the players and the media. That is a sign that makes us look like a underdog and that should piss people off.
Instead, the few that are sick and tired of it they stay away from Goodison and suffer in silence.
The need for a fresh-thinking, attack-minded manager is now desperate. The falling attendances from about 39-40,000 to 29,000 says this with a roar.
If the Blue Union really cares then they should put out an ultimatum, start playing football from august or resign, David Moyes!
There simply has to be a line drawn after 7 years of mid-table life.
Dean, Paul, what about that striker of theirs that has been banging them in for fun since he joined Blackburn?
He'd be great up front with Jelavic.
He'd be great up front with Jelavic.
I like Gamest too and there's no Arteta to poke his eye out. Has a long throw too.
Jimmy,
I don't usually bother trying to straighten out your weird thinking but that shot implying the attendances are more than 10,000 down is complete bollocks. Every season without exception has big and small crowds so your vague comparison is meaningless.
Average league attendance last season was 36,039. If we get a good crowd close to 36,000 on Sunday, then average league attendance this season will be just over 33,000. That's around 3,000 down, not 10,000.
I don't usually bother trying to straighten out your weird thinking but that shot implying the attendances are more than 10,000 down is complete bollocks. Every season without exception has big and small crowds so your vague comparison is meaningless.
Average league attendance last season was 36,039. If we get a good crowd close to 36,000 on Sunday, then average league attendance this season will be just over 33,000. That's around 3,000 down, not 10,000.
Eric, 4 in 19 isn't exactly banging them in.
Nice to see you passing judgement!
I was not talking about average attendances.
This is the first season we have had such low attendances against teams like Chelsea,Man.city and other top 4 teams.
The tendency is clear, even after the upsurge since January we will have lost millions on gate receipts.
Since we have a 5 million debt each year to begin with this does not help.
I fear the attendances will be even lower after the start of next season.
If you want to believe that everything is fine then that is YOUR right.
It was not my intent to offend anybody.
I feel strongly about all things Everton and I am sorry if I offended you.
I was not talking about average attendances.
This is the first season we have had such low attendances against teams like Chelsea,Man.city and other top 4 teams.
The tendency is clear, even after the upsurge since January we will have lost millions on gate receipts.
Since we have a 5 million debt each year to begin with this does not help.
I fear the attendances will be even lower after the start of next season.
If you want to believe that everything is fine then that is YOUR right.
It was not my intent to offend anybody.
I feel strongly about all things Everton and I am sorry if I offended you.
James Martin 471+ all the others who, how ever they dance around it, disguise it, dress it up as FACT, when all it is, is unproveable OPINION...
....' If we took the Lambert / Rogers approach, we'd be more likely to and up where they are in the table than where Arsenal and Spurs are in the table.'
And ( yet again ) your proof that this is and will be so is???
Write out 100 times ' I must be careful what I wish for'
....' If we took the Lambert / Rogers approach, we'd be more likely to and up where they are in the table than where Arsenal and Spurs are in the table.'
And ( yet again ) your proof that this is and will be so is???
Write out 100 times ' I must be careful what I wish for'
Jamie,
I'd say 16 in 28 is banging them in, especially in a poor side. Why so selective in limiting your sample size to 19 games?
I'd say 16 in 28 is banging them in, especially in a poor side. Why so selective in limiting your sample size to 19 games?
Blackburn are down....how about trying to sign that striker that played up front for them? He got a few didn't he?
Relax, I'm joking
Relax, I'm joking
Jamie #416, I think you mean 4 in 1 game??
Derek there is no proof either way as you correctly point out, but look at the players, ar eyou really telling me that these are good players capable of playing effective free flowing football? Mancini even recognised this in his first season, he knew that despite spending 100s of millions he still didn't have enough quality to play the way they do now and come in the top 4 so he got pragmatic became defensive, made use of what he had (which was a lot more than we do) and got Man City into the Champions League. It wa sonly after another massive wave of investment that he then felt comfortable that he had a team that could attack and win enough to win the league. For all the money Liverpool have spent their team still cannot play it to a good enough level, yes they turned us over, but look at their league position. Now looking st some of those players I mentioned in my previous post do you really think that they're going to end up playing their free flowing football in the style of the Manchester clubs or in the style of Swansea and Norwich, pretty to watch but doesn't get you a whole lot of points. Like you said no-one can say for certain but I don't see how the same people who come on here criticising a lot of the players week after week also expect them to be able to play like top 4 contenders.
It's a pointless argument with the current crop of players, or any future players because the focus of any football match is win. Who cares if it's good or bad so long as you win? Winning is everything and those that say we should play more free flowing and flirt with relegation are daft (if there are any).
Even if we had all the best midfielders in the world the plan will always be the same: Get ball, give ball to Jelavic, Jelavic score.
People may say it's predictable but there aren't many teams that have more than one goalscorer; even Man Utd only had Rooney this year
Even if we had all the best midfielders in the world the plan will always be the same: Get ball, give ball to Jelavic, Jelavic score.
People may say it's predictable but there aren't many teams that have more than one goalscorer; even Man Utd only had Rooney this year
Noel, my selection of 19 games is because we all know he likes to start off well but once settled, you see the real Yakubu. The 19 was from the second half of the season.
Simple really!If you have a majority of only average Premier players,you have to be pragmatic to survive let alone prosper.
If the balance changes towards a majority of good players then it allows the style to change towards the more adventurous.That`s what happened at Goodison in the New Year.
Only if Moyes is able to sign better grade players consistently, will have any alternative but to rely on his `natural`reliance on KITAHTO to keep us `top endish`!br />
If the balance changes towards a majority of good players then it allows the style to change towards the more adventurous.That`s what happened at Goodison in the New Year.
Only if Moyes is able to sign better grade players consistently, will have any alternative but to rely on his `natural`reliance on KITAHTO to keep us `top endish`!br />
What do Arsenal cherish the most? The 6 or 7 years of success with George Graham or the last 6 or 7 trophy-less years under Wenger?
That's a better way of putting the question because survival isn't what we're about.
That's a better way of putting the question because survival isn't what we're about.
David Moyes: "?Tim?s been the mainstay of the way we?ve played. There?ll be a time when we have to move on and that will evolve, but not at the moment."
Same again next season then.
Same again next season then.
James; we agree to differ, I think football should be played to win, not played so as not to lose.
We will have to wait to find out when Moyes leaves, ( as he will never get sacked).
See you then. I will try and contain my impatience with those who don't seem to get it...as no doubt will you with those who you think don't get it.
It will be a long close season.
We will have to wait to find out when Moyes leaves, ( as he will never get sacked).
See you then. I will try and contain my impatience with those who don't seem to get it...as no doubt will you with those who you think don't get it.
It will be a long close season.
Nick 542
The answer is neither, before Wenger became too clever for his own good trying the Barca (never ever work in EPL) he had the answer with physically strong skilful players like Viera et al and won the lot.
The mix of skill, pace, punching people in the head and a rock hard mentality is what you need here.
Not sure we have any of 'em in any great measure.
The answer is neither, before Wenger became too clever for his own good trying the Barca (never ever work in EPL) he had the answer with physically strong skilful players like Viera et al and won the lot.
The mix of skill, pace, punching people in the head and a rock hard mentality is what you need here.
Not sure we have any of 'em in any great measure.
I don't think the answer can be neither Barry, its a straight forward question. I'd go with the former.
It wasn't all about power when Wegner was successful. Pires, Lungberg, Overmars, Silva, Suker, Bergkamp and more, were supremely skillful. He played better football then too. He just had Viera and that blond Frenchman in the middle, plus the remnants of the famed Arsenal back four supplying the power and punch where needed.
It wasn't all about power when Wegner was successful. Pires, Lungberg, Overmars, Silva, Suker, Bergkamp and more, were supremely skillful. He played better football then too. He just had Viera and that blond Frenchman in the middle, plus the remnants of the famed Arsenal back four supplying the power and punch where needed.
What we've been playing recently hasn't been Brazil 1970, however it HAS actually cheered me up a bit
Particularly when I compare it to some of the dumb, lumpy, ugly shite we played earlier in the season (and I thought we were stuck with for ever under Moyes).
Since the second half at Swansea, we've generally been keeping it on the deck.
Passing-moving has been good in the main and if they could start to think more about the final ball it could be even better.
This..um..'philosophy' absolutely MUST continue.
There NEEDS to be more entertainment, there NEEDS to be something to applaud.
I was pissed-off we didn't get the points against Wolves, but the pissed-off feeling didn't last too long because I thought it was only really the final ball that stopped us winning 3-0 (there were 6 or 7 really dumb balls).
However (importantly) I WASN'T fuming and thinking "you shower of fucking useless shite".
I wasn't screaming about Moyes' miserable tactics.
Compare this to many games earlier in the season.
Results earlier in the season were putting me in a depression all week as, not only was the football grim, but also the Presbyterian's after-match comments.
I might have taken some solace if he'd said "Yeah, yeah, you don't need to tell me, that was fucking shocking and it's up to me to sort it out" but..he never did (well, not until this week when he revealed he could barely watch).
It's obvious when we lose certain players (Gibson, Pienaar, Fellaini etc) we don't have the cover and will to some extent struggle (fair enough to a degree as we simply can't afford decent cover for every position).
But, if I see what I consider a strong Everton 11, sitting back, inviting teams to run at us, lumping the ball forward, moving sideways instead of forward and Moyes sitting there like a puddin' just watching, I'll feel more than entitled to call him/them every shit-bag under the sun.
Imo, we have PROVED we can pass, move and go forward.
We have PROVED attack is the best form of defence (or certainly as effective, results-wise, as trying to nick one).
And we have a greedy striker.
Consequently, unless we end up playing Barcelona (and, er, we won't) there is simply NO reason/excuse to play this anti-football football ever again.
Particularly when I compare it to some of the dumb, lumpy, ugly shite we played earlier in the season (and I thought we were stuck with for ever under Moyes).
Since the second half at Swansea, we've generally been keeping it on the deck.
Passing-moving has been good in the main and if they could start to think more about the final ball it could be even better.
This..um..'philosophy' absolutely MUST continue.
There NEEDS to be more entertainment, there NEEDS to be something to applaud.
I was pissed-off we didn't get the points against Wolves, but the pissed-off feeling didn't last too long because I thought it was only really the final ball that stopped us winning 3-0 (there were 6 or 7 really dumb balls).
However (importantly) I WASN'T fuming and thinking "you shower of fucking useless shite".
I wasn't screaming about Moyes' miserable tactics.
Compare this to many games earlier in the season.
Results earlier in the season were putting me in a depression all week as, not only was the football grim, but also the Presbyterian's after-match comments.
I might have taken some solace if he'd said "Yeah, yeah, you don't need to tell me, that was fucking shocking and it's up to me to sort it out" but..he never did (well, not until this week when he revealed he could barely watch).
It's obvious when we lose certain players (Gibson, Pienaar, Fellaini etc) we don't have the cover and will to some extent struggle (fair enough to a degree as we simply can't afford decent cover for every position).
But, if I see what I consider a strong Everton 11, sitting back, inviting teams to run at us, lumping the ball forward, moving sideways instead of forward and Moyes sitting there like a puddin' just watching, I'll feel more than entitled to call him/them every shit-bag under the sun.
Imo, we have PROVED we can pass, move and go forward.
We have PROVED attack is the best form of defence (or certainly as effective, results-wise, as trying to nick one).
And we have a greedy striker.
Consequently, unless we end up playing Barcelona (and, er, we won't) there is simply NO reason/excuse to play this anti-football football ever again.
Eugene Ruane 556
10/10
That sums up most of how I see it. Seems like the fans who saw the 80's sides know and want better. Nothing wrong with having high standards.
10/10
That sums up most of how I see it. Seems like the fans who saw the 80's sides know and want better. Nothing wrong with having high standards.
I did notice that our 0-0 at the weekend was our first for 57 matches.
Not THAT dour, then ...
Not THAT dour, then ...
Barry and Nick.
Wenger's first Arsenal team was still based on the defense that Graham built. As players like Adams and Dixon have gone, he has never replaced them with the same quality. His most successful teams were strong at the back and had talented attacking players. A very expensive commodity.
Wenger's first Arsenal team was still based on the defense that Graham built. As players like Adams and Dixon have gone, he has never replaced them with the same quality. His most successful teams were strong at the back and had talented attacking players. A very expensive commodity.
Paul 562
I'd imagine there would be a lot of 1 nil wins or defeats in them 57 games.
I'd imagine there would be a lot of 1 nil wins or defeats in them 57 games.
Paul (562), I know Mark Twain's 'damned lies' quote has the number 1 spot on the subject of stats, but my fave (no idea who it's by or the exact quote) is along the lines of 'most people use statistics in the same way a piss-head uses a lamppost - more for support than illumination'.
With that in mind, I'll stick to believing what I actually SEE rather than what the numbers might suggest.
With that in mind, I'll stick to believing what I actually SEE rather than what the numbers might suggest.
What if what you 'see' is seen through the prism of ideology Eugene?
EG If Everton won every match next season bar the final game 10 -0 but won the last one 9-0.
Some would 'see' this final result as evidence that Everton were on the slippery slide to mediocrity, all down to 'Dour, Defensive, Davy (yawn)...
"One can only see what one observes, and one observes only things which are already in the mind"
EG If Everton won every match next season bar the final game 10 -0 but won the last one 9-0.
Some would 'see' this final result as evidence that Everton were on the slippery slide to mediocrity, all down to 'Dour, Defensive, Davy (yawn)...
"One can only see what one observes, and one observes only things which are already in the mind"
Jamie,
As someone who always jumps on people when they get on Moyes case early season your slating of Yakubu seems odd.
If were now going off half seasons to judge people then Moyes should have been legged from GP before we had our tree up.
I've been using this site for a long time now and there used to be loads of posters who could you could have a brilliant debate with and educate yourself in the process.
The club is now that stale most of those have stopped bothering and I can barely be bothered myself these days.
The one and only reason for this is we are still discussing the exact same issues we were 5/6 years ago.
Eugene,
Your dead right there is no excuse for anti-football anymore. I'll bet you a tenner plenty will try and make one though.
As someone who always jumps on people when they get on Moyes case early season your slating of Yakubu seems odd.
If were now going off half seasons to judge people then Moyes should have been legged from GP before we had our tree up.
I've been using this site for a long time now and there used to be loads of posters who could you could have a brilliant debate with and educate yourself in the process.
The club is now that stale most of those have stopped bothering and I can barely be bothered myself these days.
The one and only reason for this is we are still discussing the exact same issues we were 5/6 years ago.
Eugene,
Your dead right there is no excuse for anti-football anymore. I'll bet you a tenner plenty will try and make one though.
I'll make one for anti-football:
Let's play name the creative players we actually own:
Osman.... Barkley perhaps?
No suprise that we improved in January when we could bring in Pienarr (our most impressive player since January imo) and Donovan, alongside a great finisher and a decent footballer in Gibson. If we don't have money, and we can't buy creative players, come the start of the season we will revert to boring football. Why? because what else are we suppose to do. Attacking teams need creative players, and we don't have them. We could blame Moyes for that, but then Arteta and Pienarr both wanted to go to better clubs(and both improved as players under Moyes), and most of the players we have brought in this season have been with attacking intent in mind.
Also a defence for Jamie; I think his point is don't judge Yakubu on a season, or half a season as it turned out. Blackburn played attacking football, niavely so in many cases, and Yakubu as a great finisher benefited. But will he do it next season and the one after? because he started well for us. On top of that, Yakubu, much like Berbatov, scores his goals in a few games (9 matches) and takes penalties. I think in Jelavic we have a striker who can not only score with more consistency, but offer more to the team. Yakubu is a great finisher, but there are clearly alternate views you can take on his goal-scoring record. With retrospect, Moyes letting him go may look an error, but how many of us were actually annoyed at seeing him leave? personally, I was more annoyed at Beckford going.
Let's play name the creative players we actually own:
Osman.... Barkley perhaps?
No suprise that we improved in January when we could bring in Pienarr (our most impressive player since January imo) and Donovan, alongside a great finisher and a decent footballer in Gibson. If we don't have money, and we can't buy creative players, come the start of the season we will revert to boring football. Why? because what else are we suppose to do. Attacking teams need creative players, and we don't have them. We could blame Moyes for that, but then Arteta and Pienarr both wanted to go to better clubs(and both improved as players under Moyes), and most of the players we have brought in this season have been with attacking intent in mind.
Also a defence for Jamie; I think his point is don't judge Yakubu on a season, or half a season as it turned out. Blackburn played attacking football, niavely so in many cases, and Yakubu as a great finisher benefited. But will he do it next season and the one after? because he started well for us. On top of that, Yakubu, much like Berbatov, scores his goals in a few games (9 matches) and takes penalties. I think in Jelavic we have a striker who can not only score with more consistency, but offer more to the team. Yakubu is a great finisher, but there are clearly alternate views you can take on his goal-scoring record. With retrospect, Moyes letting him go may look an error, but how many of us were actually annoyed at seeing him leave? personally, I was more annoyed at Beckford going.
You're spot on regarding Moyes, Stephen.
My post was about Yakubu banging them in though.
I just thought I'd point out that he's done his usual trick of starting off like a rocket and then not being arsed once he'd settled.
My post was about Yakubu banging them in though.
I just thought I'd point out that he's done his usual trick of starting off like a rocket and then not being arsed once he'd settled.
Difficult not to laugh when you see quotes from the "wouldnt happen in our day" crowd.
It`s not about those who saw the eighties team and expecting more (and if they do they should know better)
Its not about wanting not to lose more than wanting to win.
Its not about people thinking its either/or - Good football or relegation - as Andy suggests in his OP.
It IS about realistic expectations, where you think this CURRENT Everton team should be finishing, how You think we should be playing.
In Pienaar, Osman, Felaini, Baines and Jelavic, Everton have some very good footballers and we should be entitled to watch decent stuff.
But in Cahill, Neville, Jagileka, Hibbert, Coleman, Straquilursi Anichebe we have a group of hard working pros who are better without the ball, they couldnt play football if their lives depended upon it.
Osman missed some of early season and Pienaar and Jelavic were`nt here.
It makes no sense ot base your expectations of the current team on what teams of the past did. If you expect Howard,Neville, Cahill, Hibbert, Straquilursi, etc to perform to the levels of Sheedy, Steven, Reid,Sharp and Bracewell then your expectations absurdly unrealistic and you deserve any disappointment their failure brings you.
Without having anywhere near the leadership, talent or imagination our eighties team had, this current side regularly face`s some of the world best players.
I find it staggering that people point the fingure at the manager for not being able to bridge the gap.
It`s not about those who saw the eighties team and expecting more (and if they do they should know better)
Its not about wanting not to lose more than wanting to win.
Its not about people thinking its either/or - Good football or relegation - as Andy suggests in his OP.
It IS about realistic expectations, where you think this CURRENT Everton team should be finishing, how You think we should be playing.
In Pienaar, Osman, Felaini, Baines and Jelavic, Everton have some very good footballers and we should be entitled to watch decent stuff.
But in Cahill, Neville, Jagileka, Hibbert, Coleman, Straquilursi Anichebe we have a group of hard working pros who are better without the ball, they couldnt play football if their lives depended upon it.
Osman missed some of early season and Pienaar and Jelavic were`nt here.
It makes no sense ot base your expectations of the current team on what teams of the past did. If you expect Howard,Neville, Cahill, Hibbert, Straquilursi, etc to perform to the levels of Sheedy, Steven, Reid,Sharp and Bracewell then your expectations absurdly unrealistic and you deserve any disappointment their failure brings you.
Without having anywhere near the leadership, talent or imagination our eighties team had, this current side regularly face`s some of the world best players.
I find it staggering that people point the fingure at the manager for not being able to bridge the gap.
John (470) - Moyes has had 10 years of the most secure job in world football and a wage bill of about £60M to build a premiership side.
He lost Arteta at the 11th hour and was not able to replace him. 6 months prior to that, he let Pienaar go rather than pay him an extra 10k / week, which I imagine is what Fellaini gets now.
I can't recall where we were in the league at the new year period, but I'd guess somewhere around 14th place.
Are you seriously saying that Moyes entire side was unable to place decent football without Arteta and Pienaar? Who's fault is that? Why can teams built within a lower wage structure play good football and we can't? If you took arteta and van persie out of the Arsenal side does that mean they would resort to long ball hoofing and head tennis?
As an aside, I think anyone who is thinking that Moyes team will start next season brightly is deluding themselves. History overwhelmingly says we're in for more of the same....and Moyes openly admits he hasn't got a fucking clue as to why we only start producing after Christmas! At least he's honest.
Personally I think Moyes has done a decent job this season overall. Money-wise we're probably going to finish where we deserve to on financial grounds.
However, this indicates to me that we shouldn't be paying top dollar because Moyes really isn't overperforming, overall. We should also not be afraid of looking elsewhere for a new, hungry coach who wants to rebuild the side within the financial constraints we have.
He lost Arteta at the 11th hour and was not able to replace him. 6 months prior to that, he let Pienaar go rather than pay him an extra 10k / week, which I imagine is what Fellaini gets now.
I can't recall where we were in the league at the new year period, but I'd guess somewhere around 14th place.
Are you seriously saying that Moyes entire side was unable to place decent football without Arteta and Pienaar? Who's fault is that? Why can teams built within a lower wage structure play good football and we can't? If you took arteta and van persie out of the Arsenal side does that mean they would resort to long ball hoofing and head tennis?
As an aside, I think anyone who is thinking that Moyes team will start next season brightly is deluding themselves. History overwhelmingly says we're in for more of the same....and Moyes openly admits he hasn't got a fucking clue as to why we only start producing after Christmas! At least he's honest.
Personally I think Moyes has done a decent job this season overall. Money-wise we're probably going to finish where we deserve to on financial grounds.
However, this indicates to me that we shouldn't be paying top dollar because Moyes really isn't overperforming, overall. We should also not be afraid of looking elsewhere for a new, hungry coach who wants to rebuild the side within the financial constraints we have.
I know David Moyes has said that he wants to get his transfer business done as early as possible. Obviously this makes sense, the only problem is that this doesnt legislate for another club deciding the week before the season starts that they want 1 of our players.
Yes we can refuse their offers as we did with Lescott, but once a player utters the imortal words " I want a transfer" seems like the only thing to negotiate is the price.
So yes we can get our business done early, but I still feel if an offer came for Fellaini or Baines in the week proir to the season starting then we would again start another season with our plans disrupted.
Yes we can refuse their offers as we did with Lescott, but once a player utters the imortal words " I want a transfer" seems like the only thing to negotiate is the price.
So yes we can get our business done early, but I still feel if an offer came for Fellaini or Baines in the week proir to the season starting then we would again start another season with our plans disrupted.
John Daley (#543) ? of all the garbage we've had to deal with this season, that one sentence is the most soul-destroying for me.
Despite his dreadful form for most of the season, Cahill has been involved in almost all the games, with only three where he was declared injured or sick, rested on just two occasions, and an unused sub in just one game... You guessed it no doubt: Anfield, March 13. How incredibly symbolic is that of just where Moyes's head is with his Aussie talisman?
Despite his dreadful form for most of the season, Cahill has been involved in almost all the games, with only three where he was declared injured or sick, rested on just two occasions, and an unused sub in just one game... You guessed it no doubt: Anfield, March 13. How incredibly symbolic is that of just where Moyes's head is with his Aussie talisman?
Going back to the OP I for one will never accept any manager that takes Everton into the Championship, regardless of how entertaining the football is.
Ideally playing great football and winning is what we all want, personally my second choice would be playing poorly but still winning. I don't really care how we play when we lose to teams like QPR, I will accept defeats to ManU, Chelsea etc if we have a go, and how that go looks depends on what players we have available.
Ideally playing great football and winning is what we all want, personally my second choice would be playing poorly but still winning. I don't really care how we play when we lose to teams like QPR, I will accept defeats to ManU, Chelsea etc if we have a go, and how that go looks depends on what players we have available.
"6 months prior to that, he let Pienaar go rather than pay him an extra 10k / week" - He doesn't pay the wages and he doesn't control the purse strings either.
He has made many mistakes but it was the board who wouldn't stump up the extra wage money and Pienaar for thinking he would walk into a Spurs side with Moderic, Bale, Van Der Vaart and Lennon in it. He expected a bumper World Cup and loads of offers, he was sorely disappointed.
"Money-wise we're probably going to finish where we deserve to on financial grounds" - This is the first season in three were the board has actually spent some money (actually, no it isn't, the money for Jelavic and Gibson was from Bily, Vaughan and Yak's sale)
We have a handful of players on top wages, doesn't mean we have top players.
He has made many mistakes but it was the board who wouldn't stump up the extra wage money and Pienaar for thinking he would walk into a Spurs side with Moderic, Bale, Van Der Vaart and Lennon in it. He expected a bumper World Cup and loads of offers, he was sorely disappointed.
"Money-wise we're probably going to finish where we deserve to on financial grounds" - This is the first season in three were the board has actually spent some money (actually, no it isn't, the money for Jelavic and Gibson was from Bily, Vaughan and Yak's sale)
We have a handful of players on top wages, doesn't mean we have top players.
Kevin (582) - you ask..
"What if what you 'see' is seen through the prism of ideology Eugene?"
Erm...actually, it is (in fact I'd say I see just about EVERYTHING through 'the prism of ideology').
And?
"What if what you 'see' is seen through the prism of ideology Eugene?"
Erm...actually, it is (in fact I'd say I see just about EVERYTHING through 'the prism of ideology').
And?
And... statistics are ideologically sterile
(though how you use them isn't)
However, if there is a 99% chance it's going to rain, there's a 99% you're going to get wet when you go out even if all you 'see' is sunshine.
Same with watching Everton... if there are 27 attempts at goal to the opposition's 5 then it's highly likely you've witnessed an attacking football team... even if all you 'see' is a dour defensive display.
(Not specifically aimed at you BTW)
(though how you use them isn't)
However, if there is a 99% chance it's going to rain, there's a 99% you're going to get wet when you go out even if all you 'see' is sunshine.
Same with watching Everton... if there are 27 attempts at goal to the opposition's 5 then it's highly likely you've witnessed an attacking football team... even if all you 'see' is a dour defensive display.
(Not specifically aimed at you BTW)
Waybe, Re. 'If you took arteta and van persie out of the Arsenal side does that mean they would resort to long ball hoofing and head tennis?'
Take Arteta out of the Arsenal team, and you get a significantly less effective team (he has become essential to the team, because he caters for the complete indiscipline of Song). Take Van Persie out as well, and Arsenal would be where Liverpool and we are. They wouldn't play hoof ball, because they have a team full of creative players; we do not have that liberty. But like us, taking out two of their most effective players would damage them massively and cause them to alter their style.
Wayne, if we finish seventh or eighth, we also would have done better than we deserve to be financially. Again, we have a negative net spending with money coming from the summer sales. Re. Wages, we will be around 12th in this division when figures are released. There's no doubt Moyes has overachieved in the league when finances are considered. There is a doubt over the quality of our football, but then it's hard to play good football when you can't buy players and replace the outgoing creative ones. Alot of people are saying at the moment but they'd take us being less successful if we were more attacking; bullshit. If Martinez came in, and we had to go through the irritation of bottom half of the table finishes, everyone would soon get pissed off.
Take Arteta out of the Arsenal team, and you get a significantly less effective team (he has become essential to the team, because he caters for the complete indiscipline of Song). Take Van Persie out as well, and Arsenal would be where Liverpool and we are. They wouldn't play hoof ball, because they have a team full of creative players; we do not have that liberty. But like us, taking out two of their most effective players would damage them massively and cause them to alter their style.
Wayne, if we finish seventh or eighth, we also would have done better than we deserve to be financially. Again, we have a negative net spending with money coming from the summer sales. Re. Wages, we will be around 12th in this division when figures are released. There's no doubt Moyes has overachieved in the league when finances are considered. There is a doubt over the quality of our football, but then it's hard to play good football when you can't buy players and replace the outgoing creative ones. Alot of people are saying at the moment but they'd take us being less successful if we were more attacking; bullshit. If Martinez came in, and we had to go through the irritation of bottom half of the table finishes, everyone would soon get pissed off.
Eugene Ruane #556
Spot on, first bit of sense in this whole thread.
Whilst we probably should have beaten both Stoke and Wolves, we certainly weren't negative; anything but.
Yes, we were poor in both second halves but we played some very good football. The only thing missing was the final ball.
I'd much rather watch a season of us trying to pass our way through teams than the dross we witnessed before Xmas. The argument about good football and relegation is futile. As another poster said, we are better than all those teams; therefore, we have the ability to play good football and wins games.
Something we have shown over the last few months. From the close of the transfer window in January to the Wolves game, only Arsenal, City, United and Newcastle have gained more points than us.
There really is no pleasing some people.
Spot on, first bit of sense in this whole thread.
Whilst we probably should have beaten both Stoke and Wolves, we certainly weren't negative; anything but.
Yes, we were poor in both second halves but we played some very good football. The only thing missing was the final ball.
I'd much rather watch a season of us trying to pass our way through teams than the dross we witnessed before Xmas. The argument about good football and relegation is futile. As another poster said, we are better than all those teams; therefore, we have the ability to play good football and wins games.
Something we have shown over the last few months. From the close of the transfer window in January to the Wolves game, only Arsenal, City, United and Newcastle have gained more points than us.
There really is no pleasing some people.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.
© ToffeeWeb
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
462 Posted 07/05/2012 at 22:20:46
Report abuse